Latest / UNMASKED with Wesley Farnsworth / Overcoming Family Challenges with Pastor Bill Letcher

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Overcoming Family Challenges with Pastor Bill Letcher · UNMASKED with Wesley Farnsworth

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Welcome to Unmasked, where we take off the filters and get
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real about faith, failure, and finding freedom.
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I'm your host, Wesley Farnsworth, a dad, veteran,
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author, and a man who's learned that God does his best work in
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the middle of our mess. Each episode will have honest
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conversations with people who've walked through addiction, pain,
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or doubt, and with pastors, leaders, and everyday believers
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who are learning to live and lead authentically.
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So take a breath, pull up a chair, and let's get real.
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This is Unmasked. Today on Unmasked, I'm joined by
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someone who has spent more than 25 years walking with families
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through some of the most difficult and defining moments
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of their lives. Bill Letcher is a full time
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pastor, a husband of 26 years, and a father of four.
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He currently serves as the Pastor of Prayer and Care with
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his church, where he helps marriages, parents, and entire
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households navigate real world challenges with wisdom, grace,
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faith, and biblical grounding. Bill brings not only
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professional experiences, but personal insight into how faith,
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humility, and intentional communication can strengthen a
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family even in the hardest seasons.
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I'm grateful to have him. Grateful to have him here today
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with us to talk about what it really looks like to face
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challenges as a family and to overcome them together.
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Bill, thanks for being with us today here on Unmasked.
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Hey, you're welcome, Wes. Great to see you again.
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Yes. So Bill is a good friend of mine
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to just put that caveat out there and we've been friends for
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a number of years now. And when I thought about doing
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an episode on families and helping them overcome things,
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cause I've had a lot of episodes up to this date about personal
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struggles and things that people have gone through.
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And I wanted to take a moment and just kind of approach it
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from a different angle. So that if you're a part of a
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family that has has dealt with things or you're currently
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dealing with things and you're like, how do we approach this
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from a family standpoint and help everybody be able to get
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through these things and to take off that mask and to be raw and
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honest with families, the family members, so that everybody's on
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the same page and dealing with things in a healthy way.
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Who do I talk to? And Bill came to my mind as he's
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been, he's been with me through some hard things.
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And so let's just jump into it, Bill, and I'll let you have the
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floor and then we'll circle back with some questions.
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Yeah, I appreciate that. Wes.
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As you were talking and sharing things, I was reminded of just a
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few of those times when we've just been brothers together.
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And though I don't have a brother, I consider you one of
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my good brothers in Christ. And as we've talked and again,
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been in physical proximity, attending the same church for a
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while, but now a few hours apart, we do get to see each
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other a couple times a year. And each time I talk with you,
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I'm just reminded about how God's working in your life
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through really, really hard things.
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So thanks for putting this podcast together.
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I'm excited to see the the far reaching effects that this has
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and ultimately to help men and women both see how much they can
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rely upon God even in the hard times.
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We praise God during the good times and podcasts like this
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remind us all about the need and really the call to to praise God
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in difficult times as well. I know that your audience goes
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far beyond just people of faith, but that's going to be from my
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perspective on a lot of things that we share.
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And I'll get into maybe a little bit more of that later on.
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But for people who are listening and watching this that say, you
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know, I just don't know if, if there's, if God is good and
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everything, why in the world is all this stuff happening to me?
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And why are there hard times? I just sat with a guy in my
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office yesterday afternoon who was really going through some
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really hard relational things and just just some difficult
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things. And I reminded him, I said,
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listen, you, you have difficult things that are happening to you
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partly because of just, we live in a cause and effect kind of
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world, a sowing and reaping kind of world.
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The story's not done. And so I'm really enjoying this,
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getting to know him in the beginning part of our
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relationship and just to be able to help walk him through again
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what it means to have faith and to see beyond just the
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circumstances that we're facing today.
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So to give you a little bit of background about me for the
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people who are listening today, I was born and raised just in a
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really good Christian home. Mom and dad took us to church a
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lot. And when I was around 10 years
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old, we say I kind of made that faith my own where I at 10 was
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again exploring what the Bible says about who God is, what's he
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think of me. And it was when I was around 10
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years old at summer camp that I decided that I wanted to follow
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him with my life. And so again, involved in a
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really good church, continued to grow and learn more about him,
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had a lot of chances to do a lot of neat things in ministry, even
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when in middle school and in high school.
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I went off to college and it was during those early when I really
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realized that I felt like God wanted me to go into full time
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ministry. And so I went off to Bible
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college, met my wife there. We got married, went off to
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ministry in Illinois and then here in Ohio and just again
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counted a great privilege to to do something that I love and
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that I'm passionate about, which like you said, is helping people
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see again who God is. I mean what he thinks of them
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specifically in regards to relationships, in regards to
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when you make mistakes. I preached a message many years
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ago and one of my lines was failure is not final and that
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there's always hope because when we go to God on His terms, He
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always accepts us and want to restore us and to help us as
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well. So those are some of the things
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that we do currently. I've been at the ministry where
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we're at now for about 2 1/2 years.
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I serve, as you said, as pastor of prayer and care, and one of
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our big responsibilities, one of mine, is to shepherd people.
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In our particular church. We have a really strong Deacon
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ministry and the deacons are responsible for caring for the
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practical needs of our members as well as praying for them.
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So they reach out once a month when we get those lifts back.
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In those reports, I see all kinds of people that just need
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followed up with and cared for. Seemingly the past couple years
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there's been a lot of situations that have come to my attention
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in regarding to marriages. And so just this afternoon I was
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contacted by a man who came into our area because of work and
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said, hey, my wife and I, we've been married a few years and we
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just need some help. We're just looking for some
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advice. Would you be willing to talk
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with us? I'm like absolutely.
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So I really enjoy doing that. My wife and I get the chance.
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We've done this for many years. The lead couples through some
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what we call pre marriage mentoring couples, get engaged
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and say, hey, you know, we want to get married.
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So they come to their local church and say, one, would you
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marry us? And secondly, do you have any
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advice for us? And we say absolutely.
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And so we get a chance to walk with them through a book that we
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have to walk them through eight different sessions about things
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that they're going to need to know.
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We give them tools and their tool belt to be able to face or
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be ready to handle the different challenges.
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As we all know, they come up in marriage.
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And so we we really enjoy doing that.
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In doing so, it's been given Kathy and IA chance to be able
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to to learn more about each other.
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And so we talked about, she'll make a comment about something
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and on the way home, I'll say I don't remember, you know, that
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happening. Oh yeah, it was something, you
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know, I don't, you don't remember that event.
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And so we get a good chance. It's it's been good to
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strengthen our marriage as well. We talked about hard times that
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come up in inevitably these couples are going through some
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difficult things, but we also just help prepare them for the
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ones that they're going to be facing.
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Jesus said in this world you will have trouble, but take
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heart. I've overcome.
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He said, you know, my yoke is easy.
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My burden is light. Do things how, how you know.
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Following after Jesus is definitely the better way and
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truly the easier way to handle things that come up in life.
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Yeah, you know, you said something there that I want to
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go back and and emphasize and just touch on real quick.
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And that was that failure isn't final.
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And that's one thing that I talked about quite often on this
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podcast because I think, you know, that as as humans were, we
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often will, we feel like that we've done something and we
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failed in some way. And because of that, we feel
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like it's final and it disqualifies us from something
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else. And so we let that let that
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define our lives moving forward. We put on that mask now to to
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show everyone else that or to make everybody else think that
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that is no longer a part of our life or it's, you know, it never
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happened or whatever that is because we feel like it's final.
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And if you're listening today, I wanted to just, I want you to
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hear those words again. Failure isn't final.
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You don't have to put on a mask and cover up whatever it is
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that's happened in your life, whether it be a pain or
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addiction or whatever it might be.
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It doesn't have to define you. It doesn't have to define your
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family. You just have to deal with it in
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a healthy way. And Bill, you said you've been
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in, we mentioned in your introduction that you've been in
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ministry for more than 25 years. Talk to us a little bit about
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some major challenges that families are facing today.
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I know you mentioned marriage is one that you see a lot of right
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now, but what are some other major challenges that families
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are facing today that you weren't seeing quite as often
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when you first started in ministry?
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Those are good questions. I kind of categorize problems or
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hardships that happen in life. I'm kind of in two basic
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categories. One, we shoot ourselves in the
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foot. Like, you know, I did something
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just dumb, boneheaded, I made a mistake.
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I, I send again, it's in the severity of those vary with the
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different circumstances. But the second category of
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things that I think is really applicable in conversations like
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this is when someone else shoots us in the foot, when someone
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else does something to us. Maybe when we were a kid, maybe
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someone at your workplace stabbed you behind the back and
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you ended up having some kind of negative repercussion of that.
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You lost your job, you got a bad name.
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But the office, maybe it's an ex-spouse or an ex-girlfriend or
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boyfriend that I mean, just really trashed you.
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I think again, those hardships can come in those both
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categories. Going back to what you asked,
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how have I seen that change in ministry?
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I think back when Kathy and I first got married and then like
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the next year, we're jumping in, you know, we served as youth
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leaders, but then that first full time job where I'm youth
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pastor, I'm supposed to help kids and then their parents, of
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course. And you know, being in our mid
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20s, we didn't have kids at the time.
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But really the challenges aren't any different than they were
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back then. You can even read, you know,
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talk to our parents generation or even our grandparents
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generation. The problems that people face in
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society, so they may look just a little bit different, like they
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didn't have the Internet back then, really are the same thing
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because it boils down to selfishness.
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It boils down to anger. It boils down to addictions like
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you said. And those are the kind of things
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that I think again, cross time as well.
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But because of that, for me personally as a Christian man, I
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think God addresses all those kinds of things that happen as
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well. I'm doing some discipleship with
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a 22 year old young man. We've been meeting for several
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months and we're going through the book of Joshua and listening
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to see how Joshua, a man who was thrust into the leadership
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because his leader, our big leadership changed.
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The lessons that can be drawn from that about family, about
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anger, about trusting are not making hasty decisions when
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things are done to you, when you're accused.
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All those things really are, are when you, when you just start
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reading through the Bible, you start hearing all these stories
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and then again what God thinks or who God is and then what he
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thinks of us. As far as the, the other
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challenges that come up, I think part of those have probably just
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been within seasons for us. You know, when we first started
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in ministry, we didn't have any kids.
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Now we have 4, two out of the house, 2 still at home.
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Man, those are just challenging times.
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Children are a blessing that affects your relationship with
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your spouse as well. Finances, of course.
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I told people we're in the cars and college phase of life and
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man, it, it's just, it's crazy to see again, the different
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things that come up, but as well as God providing and meeting all
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of those needs for us. I think when it comes to like
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addictions, you and I have some background in regards to just
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recovery ministry as a whole. And one of the things that I see
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again, not really being as involved with it back again
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early on in ministry, but maybe about 10 years ago, starting to
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get involved and learning more about, you know, the culture and
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the incredible, incredible environments and groups of
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people, the forever families that exist out there where they
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bond together together really and around a united common
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thing, issue hardship that's in life and really encourage and
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challenge each other. So the things that have changed,
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I think of course, the Internet where you can, you can have some
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sort of secrecy and, or privacy, or at least you think so.
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And so that can lead to all kinds of hiding, manipulation,
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contacting people. Like my goodness, back in the
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day, if you wanted to get in touch with an old high school
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person, like you would have to literally search them down or go
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through the, the phone book on this big white giant thing that
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had names. And you know, like nowadays you
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literally just look them up on social media or, or they contact
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you. So I think there's a lot more
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challenges that are faced with that transparency.
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I think though, the Internet is a wonderful tool that we have,
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and it can also prevent other dangers as well.
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And so one thing that we encourage all families, and
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specifically leaders and their families, make sure that you're
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talking to your children about the things that really matter.
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Deuteronomy chapter 6 is a passage where God is addressing
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the children of Israel and specifically dads.
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And he said, hey, I've told you a lot about myself, about the
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wondrous things that I've done. Teach these things to your
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children older in Deuteronomy chapter 6, starting in verse 4
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about how great God is and it's our responsibility as dads to do
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that. We can't push that off on mom.
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And I know that they're single mom situations, man, you guys
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are killing it, really, really rocking it as a single moms
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you're trying to raise. You know, some boys might
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encourage you find another man in the church that you trust or
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a basketball coach or a neighbor or maybe an uncle, somebody who
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could get invest into those young men's lives as you're
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investing in them as mom as well.
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Dads that are out there, even single dads, man, just pour into
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your kids as well. Don't feel like you have to do
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it alone. I think that's one thing that
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another thing that's changing within culture and the culture
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that I'm around is that men specifically are more willing to
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reach out to other men. I know that it like in my
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parents generation, like men really didn't open up and share
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and they didn't have feelings and all of this staunch sort of
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thing. I still think there's part of
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that demographic that's out there, but I do feel like, at
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least in the circles that I'm in and know about in my networks is
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that men are being willing to open up and be vulnerable.
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The phrase like it's OK not to be OK, it's just OK.
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It's it's not OK to stay that way.
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And I think that some men are are realizing there is hope when
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I can sit down across the table from another man and truly pour
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my heart out and talk about things that really, really
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matter too. It's not just the frivolous, you
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know that the sports and you know what's going on, you know
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the latest trends and stuff, but truly talk about things that
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matter to them. And that that information be
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received in a good, godly, healthy way where you're not
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condemned or shamed. But that yet another man who
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looks across to the table at you and says your brother are like,
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I'm right there with you. Like it's going to be OK.
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Let me encourage you. So I found great help from older
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men, men. I try to target men who are
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about 10 years older than me in the journey of parenting or in
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ministry or in marriage just to to gain great wisdom and insight
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from them so that I'm prepared for that next season of life
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that that will be entering as well.
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Yeah. And again, you touched on
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something that I talked about all the time here on Unmasked
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and when I'm out doing podcast episodes as a guest.
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And that's just the importance of community.
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You know, it's if you have to have people in your life to do
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life with, to speak into you, to be able to be there and be
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vulnerable with and then flipping that around you, you
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should be there to be there, be that person to listen to
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somebody else. It's a two way St. and it's
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important that you have that as as like the Bible calls this,
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that iron sharpens iron relationship that you can be
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there to support one another. And so I love that you brought
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that up And I, I make no secret and I talked about on on my
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podcasts and my parents is all the time.
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I'm a part of the Celebrate Recovery ministry where we talk
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and we help people with a lot of different things in in addiction
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and struggles of of all, all kinds, whether it be alcohol,
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drugs, pornography, whatever it is, overeating, self-image, that
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type of stuff. It all comes in all different
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shapes and sizes, different forms.
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And so I want to ask you a question about that
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specifically. What advice would you have for a
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family that is dealing with an addiction or dealing with a
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struggle, if you will, And they're not quite sure, you
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know, maybe they have kids at home and they're not quite sure
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how to approach it and handle it in a healthy way so that
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everybody is on the same page moving forward to be able to
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deal with this? Yeah, great.
16:34
Great question, Wes. Hey, great question, Wes.
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I want to go back to again what I shared earlier and start off
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1st to get to your question is sometimes things happen to us in
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our lives where again we're we're the ones who are getting
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shot in the foot. We don't really do anything
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wrong. We live in a sinful world and
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broken world. Several years back, my wife went
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through cancer about 10 years ago.
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And man, that was that was really hard as a family.
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We had little kids at the time, 4 kids under 1312 years old and
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leading, leading the family through that as well.
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You know, watching your wife suffer, nobody likes that as
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well. One of the great encouragement
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for us with our church at the time, they just helped carry us
17:14
through. I remember early on my wife's
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like, hey, we don't have to tell anybody.
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We're going to be able to go through this, we're going to
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make it. But I don't know if we we should
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tell everybody. And I'm like, honey, like, like
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you're physically like, like your hair's going to fall out.
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You're going to go through chemo.
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Like people are going to know. And we're also going to need
17:30
other people to come alongside of us as well.
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And we're so grateful for our church who helped walk us
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through that as well. So I think the importance of,
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like you said, community and then also people who ministered
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to us because they had experienced cancer as well, I
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think was a big thing openness with our children with this.
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We still have a little book. I saw it the other day that said
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a little kids book that said my mommy has cancer.
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And just to to be in those conversations.
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Of course we do age appropriate responses.
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One thing someone told us too, is when those hard things are
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coming up, answer the question that your child asked.
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We have days and days worth of information that we can give
18:08
them, but answer the question and if they want to know more,
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they'll they'll ask you more. That's going to look different
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from a four year old to a 14 year old.
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And of course, the older ones you have a little bit more depth
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in depth conversation this again, as you as a parent can
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believe that they can handle that.
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The other part of the thing the hard things that happen in life
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are when we shoot ourselves in the foot.
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If the Christian man we we face the effects of sin, our sin sin
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in in the lives of our family. Sin.
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One of the definitions is just sin of selfishness and one of
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the things that sin does that brokenness because we have the
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sin gene passed on to us all the way going back to Adam and Eve,
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is that we always have the propensity to do the wrong thing
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when we trust Christ as our Savior.
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The Holy Spirit lives inside of us, indwells us, and he's the
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greatest agent of change for any of us.
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The only reason that we can even have a good life or one that's
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pleasing to God is when we have God literally living inside of
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us. And again, as a Christian man,
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this is something that, that I believe.
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And so he helps me to know when something is wrong.
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We've all known something that was wrong that we would have did
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it anyway. But that conviction is something
19:16
that God does for us. And so if there's families who
19:20
are facing, let's just say, the results of someone who's just
19:24
drinks too much or, or is into drugs, they, I, I heard a long
19:27
time ago, they said we when we love something.
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So when you have an addiction, you love something, you think
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you can keep it outside your home because of course you don't
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want to bring it in your home to hurt people.
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But eventually what we love, we bring home.
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It's like the little kid who finds the Kitty cat, you know,
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they, they find the Kitty cat out on the street corner and
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they wrap it around the neck and they're dragging the thing home.
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And, and why? Because they love that little
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Kitty cat or the puppy dog or, or whatever it is you want to
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bring it home. We do that as adults as well.
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And I think the great self deception is that, you know, I
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would never do that in my house. I would never have that affect
20:00
my children. We have a friend who said back
20:03
in his drinking days, he said I swore I would never drink and
20:07
have kids in the car with me. And he goes.
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What happened? I eventually found myself back
20:12
home having picked the kids up and I had been drinking.
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All those lines just get blown through because we can self
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deceive ourself. One of the lines, you've
20:19
probably heard it before, is sin takes you farther than you ever
20:22
wanted to go, keeps you longer than you ever wanted to stay,
20:26
and cost you more than you ever wanted to pay.
20:29
And I just told that yesterday to another young lady and I, I
20:33
said, you know, you have a choice.
20:35
I'm confronting you. Many of us just didn't have that
20:38
confrontation because, you know, it wasn't public things that we
20:41
were really struggling with. But yet, like I said, I, I'm
20:44
confronting you with this and God wants you to change.
20:48
And there's hope to change as well.
20:50
Some of the things that are good for families to do when a really
20:54
big thing comes up, maybe it might be something like, you
20:58
know, a job loss and we have to move across the country because
21:01
that's where the next job is. Maybe it's one of our family
21:04
members is sick and we have an extended family.
21:06
We have to bring them in. Maybe it's one of my one of the
21:09
parents has to go away to rehab because of because they need to
21:13
get help. I think one thing is, again,
21:15
some things that we've done as a family during hard times is we
21:19
just we say we're having a family meeting.
21:21
We sit down at the dinner table and we just talk again, age
21:25
appropriate conversations depending on the age of your
21:27
children and maybe some of the older ones may want to ask some
21:29
questions later on, things like that.
21:31
But we have an opportunity just to to talk openly about it.
21:35
The other thing is, is to find a trusted couple.
21:38
I remember a few years back, I went through a really hard job
21:41
transition. And when all that was coming
21:43
down, we said, Kathy and I said, we need to talk with, with
21:47
someone like we have to, to let somebody else help carry this
21:50
burden with us. And so we, we went to one couple
21:53
trusted friends and said, Hey, here's what's coming down the
21:56
Pike. Will you walk with us through
21:57
this? And they said, absolutely.
22:00
And we're so thankful for them for doing that.
22:02
The other thing is, is to say, kill the shame monster.
22:05
Shame is something that always suppresses and it always keeps
22:08
us quiet. Shame says nobody else is facing
22:11
this. If this word gets out,
22:13
everybody's going to hate you. Your life's going to be
22:15
horrible, whatever. There's a Proverbs I believe or
22:18
a Psalms that says you can't heal a wound by saying it's not
22:22
there. Now, I'm not saying that when
22:23
something bad happens that you broadcast it all over social
22:27
media and let everybody in the world know.
22:29
I don't think that that's showing discretion, but to, to
22:31
find and pray for that one or two trusted people that can walk
22:35
alongside of you. In my world, I call them battle
22:37
buddies. Wes, you're one of my battle
22:39
buddies, man. We've done some battle together.
22:41
But there has to be people because if not, I can convince
22:43
myself of a lot of stupid things.
22:45
My track record will show that. But to be able to, to run that
22:48
by other men and, and allow that accountability.
22:50
Nobody likes that word, but that accountability both ways of hey,
22:54
I'm asking you to be accountable, you know, to me.
22:57
But but I need to be accountable to you.
22:58
A faithful of the wounds of a friend is another one of the
23:01
Proverbs as well. I think of David in the Bible.
23:04
He had the armies. He also had these 30 mighty men
23:07
that were his like they would do anything in the world.
23:10
And there's a couple passages in Scripture to talk about that.
23:12
But then he had the three, the three leaders of those, those
23:15
mighty men and man, they, they were his men and he did things
23:20
with them. And though David made mistakes,
23:22
he was still called by God a man after God's own heart.
23:25
And so leading your family through these things takes
23:28
courage as well. I'm not I don't consider myself
23:31
a courageous person in any courage that I get has to come
23:34
from another source. For me.
23:36
I'm the most courageous when I when I gain that strength and
23:41
that courage from God, One of the things that will squash my
23:43
courage is worrying about things.
23:46
I call it pre living the future and I'm reminded of Philippians
23:49
4-6 and seven that say don't be anxious about anything, but in
23:53
everything through your prayers and petitions with Thanksgiving,
23:56
let those requests be made known to God.
23:58
Then God's peace, which surpasses all understanding
24:02
guards, protects your heart, your mind for those people that
24:05
are in Christ. That's one of my go to verses
24:08
because when I find myself being anxious and worrying and trying
24:11
to fix things and everything's falling apart, I have to step
24:15
back and say, God, have I prayed about this to you?
24:18
Have I surrender this to view? Have I gone to you with open
24:20
hands and said, this is yours by take this what I do, man, life
24:25
ends up so much better. And I I experienced God's peace
24:28
with that as well. So those are just some of the
24:29
ways that I might lead my family through that.
24:32
Being in God's word, being reminded my wife does such a
24:35
good job in reminding me of Scripture and the truths that
24:39
are found in the Scripture. So yeah, that's kind of where
24:42
I'm at with that. I love what the, I love the,
24:45
when you, you mention the truths of scripture because I remember,
24:48
you know, calling you up as a, as my battle buddy and saying,
24:51
Hey, Bill here, I'm going through this or this right now
24:55
and, and I'm just really feeling down.
24:57
And you would always say, one of the very first questions you
25:00
would always say to me is what does God say about you?
25:04
What does he do? What does Jesus say about you?
25:07
And I would always respond with Ohio, he loves me, you know, or,
25:10
or something simple like that, because at the moment, and I
25:13
didn't want to think about that. I wanted to wallow in myself,
25:16
pity, you know, or, or focus on that.
25:18
But those questions always made me go deeper and, and look
25:21
deeper and think about Scripture and what he says about, about
25:25
us. And so, so if you're listening
25:27
today and you're going through those times and you're, you're,
25:29
you're, you're wondering, you know, what am I supposed to do?
25:32
Take a moment and forget about the hard time and think about
25:35
what Scripture says about you, what God says about you and
25:38
focus on that for a moment and then come and re attack and
25:42
address the issue. Because when you reframe your
25:45
mind and you approach it from the biblical perspective, it
25:49
helps make things just a little bit clearer and a little bit
25:52
easier. And so Bill, one one of the
25:53
things I want to talk and and ask you about, I talk about
25:57
quite frequently, you know, growing up as in a ministry
26:00
related household, I'm a pastor's kid.
26:02
And with you coming from a ministry background, you'll
26:05
understand this. And that is the fact that I
26:07
think ministers and ministers, ministry families are put on a
26:11
pedestal of sorts. And they're not expected to have
26:14
the struggles that a typical human family might have because
26:18
they're not seen as human. There's seen as special, you
26:21
know, they're put this special lens on this rose colored glass
26:24
is what they're viewed through. And so let's just talk to talk
26:27
specifically directly to a ministry family right now.
26:31
If you're out there and you're listening, you're saying, but
26:32
I'm a pastor or I'm a pastor's kid or or whatever it is and I
26:37
can't talk about whatever it is that I'm going through because
26:41
it's going to affect my church is going to affect this is going
26:44
to affect whatever. And so instead of talking about
26:46
it, they're keeping it bottled up.
26:48
What would you say to that? That pastor or that family?
26:51
Yeah, good question. Most of my life I've been again,
26:54
of my adult life, I've been on the ministry side, but there's
26:57
been a couple gaps in ministry where I've been just sitting in
27:00
the in the Pew and watching. And when you go to a new church,
27:03
you're always wondering like, you know, you know, I wonder
27:06
what that guy is going through, you know, or oh, the lady who's
27:09
playing the piano, like, you know, I wonder how her and her,
27:11
her, you know, relationship is, you know, with her family and
27:14
things like that. So I would say that I would say
27:18
to answer that question, one of the things that I think we all
27:21
need to realize is people that are in ministry are not exempt
27:25
from just the hard things of the world.
27:26
People in ministry aren't exempt from temptations.
27:29
We go to church. I think it was Casting Crowns
27:31
who sang the song years ago that talked about, you know, we come
27:34
to church, everything looks great.
27:36
But when we go home, like things are different.
27:38
And you know, we all have that sin nature, which I talked about
27:42
before. If there's a family going
27:43
through just challenges, I mean, if there's a pastor out, well,
27:46
there are pastors out there that are listening.
27:48
Thank you for listening. There are pastors out there who
27:51
really are struggling in their marriages.
27:52
And I can just say like been there, done that.
27:54
Like, like we all we all get this.
27:56
Any, any honest man my age that's that's been in ministry,
28:00
that's married to be like, yeah, there are there are rough
28:02
seasons as well. Realize you're not the one to
28:05
fix the problem. So only Jesus can.
28:08
If your wife is a follower of Christ, you have to realize the
28:12
Holy Spirit is inside her and he's the greatest agent of
28:14
change as well. Many times, whether you're in
28:17
ministry or not, you always want to blame, you know, well, you
28:20
know, I know that I'm only, you know, I only have a little anger
28:23
problem or you know, we only overspend a little bit.
28:26
You know, we only let our kids be unruly, you know, a little
28:30
bit or whatever it might be. You just have to say, God, what
28:33
is it that you want us to do? I think first as a man pastor,
28:37
you have to draw your identity first from Christ.
28:39
I really struggled with that in my 20s and 30s, really trying to
28:42
figure out, I mean, of course I knew that I was saved, but then
28:46
what was my view of God and what he truly thought of me?
28:49
I think I did have a little bit of the gods, the old man
28:52
upstairs, you know, on the throne with a lightning bolt and
28:55
just ready to nail me whenever I screwed up, whenever I send.
28:57
And I guess God has transformed my view of him to realize he's a
29:01
loving God and he's the one that accepts us.
29:03
He wants us to go and and enter into the throne of where he's at
29:08
until literally he invites us to crawl up in his lap and tell us,
29:11
tell him how our day went. Like, like that's how I imagery.
29:15
That's the imagery that I like to think, you know, when it
29:18
regards to God, God is holy and he is just and he expects us to
29:21
obey him, but he also offers grace.
29:23
And so I think a proper understanding of who God is will
29:26
really help ministry families, specifically dads, be able to
29:30
navigate, you know, difficult things through their ministry.
29:32
There are things that need help. I do think that one of the
29:35
things going back to one of your other questions about things
29:37
that I've seen change in ministry over the years has been
29:41
the openness of pastors to like, like throw up their hand and
29:44
say, Yep, we need help. Like we need some good
29:48
counseling. There's some really good
29:49
biblical counseling that can be found all over the place in
29:54
person and online as well. The biblical counselors who are
29:58
full of grace, not condemnation. Like, you have to be open and
30:01
willing to actually go. I'm not saying stand up in front
30:04
of your church and say, hey, my wife and I are really struggling
30:06
and we're about ready to fill in the towel.
30:07
Like, I'm not saying that, but find some people maybe.
30:11
I mean, I would encourage you to find one man maybe on the church
30:15
board that you could say, hey, my wife and I would really like
30:18
to get some counseling. Is a church willing to help out
30:20
some of the cost of that? And if you don't feel
30:22
comfortable enough doing that, go to another Church of a, of a
30:25
trusted brother in Christ who serves in ministry there and
30:28
say, hey, listen, we need some help.
30:30
Are you willing to help us find some good counseling as well?
30:33
One of the verses that Jesus says is what does a profit a
30:36
man? If he gains, the whole world
30:37
loses his own soul. Like to modify that just a
30:40
little bit to say what? What does it profit a pastor if
30:42
he gains this giant ministry and loses his own family?
30:46
Our first calling is to our families and to our wives and to
30:50
our children. And secondly to the church.
30:52
I know too many pastors who have had affairs with their church
30:55
because they they poured time and energy and once the kids are
30:58
out of the house, their marriage falls apart because they really
31:01
didn't have a good, a good relationship, you know, with
31:04
their spouse. And they weren't leaving their
31:05
family. They were building this Kingdom,
31:06
which again, songs are written about that as well.
31:09
So you've walked with families through some hard times.
31:13
You've worked and walked through some marriages with some hard
31:16
times. Can you share a moment when you
31:19
witnessed God provide and bring healing or restoration in a way
31:24
that even surprised you? Well, one of the stories I can
31:28
think of is actually here within the past couple months, there's
31:31
a family that has a 20 year old daughter and she was really
31:35
going through some difficult things, some eating disorders,
31:39
just again, just some anxiety and things like that.
31:41
And I know that their parents had really been praying for them
31:44
that God would, would just show his kindness and his goodness.
31:46
But it really helped heal his daughter or heal their daughter.
31:50
And there was again, just really, really hard about a year
31:54
and a half with this, the young lady again, super sweet, super
31:57
kind, but just really struggling with that and really doubting
32:01
God's goodness and things like that.
32:03
But the parents kept praying and praying and they got a few of us
32:06
others to pray as well. When I just heard last two weeks
32:09
ago from this young lady, she said, you know, you know, that
32:13
I've been going through some, you know, hard things and with
32:15
her family and, you know, different things.
32:17
She goes, but God's really shown his kindness and goodness.
32:20
And, and really about six weeks ago, she said, I, I came to a
32:24
point where I rededicated my life, you know, to, to Christ
32:27
and surrendered this particular hang up that I was going through
32:31
this particular sin and I'm getting some help and things
32:33
like that. Two years ago, I, I really never
32:35
would have thought that that was something that that was coming
32:38
down the Pike. Of course you God can do
32:39
anything but I was really encouraged to hear this young
32:42
lady say from her own words and and her parents weren't around
32:45
at the time and say, listen, this is a decision that you know
32:48
God wants me to make and with his help, I am making this and
32:51
so that would be one thing as well.
32:54
I know over the past man with youth ministry from many years
32:57
ago, parents who's they found out their kid was doing drugs.
33:00
One mom came home and their child was like, it had got into
33:04
some really heavy narcotic stuff and was essentially dying,
33:08
foaming at the mouth, laying on the couch.
33:10
I mean, just really like, like dying rushed into the hospital
33:13
and I mean, ICU for a couple weeks.
33:15
And, and this child, God used to that to get a hold of this
33:19
teenager's life. And this teenager is living for
33:22
the Lord now in church. And so go back to that phrase
33:25
like you're never too far gone. God really helps and can restore
33:29
really any situation as well. I've seen marriages, we just had
33:33
a situation not that long ago where a couple was literally,
33:37
they had signed the first divorce papers and they were,
33:39
they were getting ready to like have that final hearing thing.
33:42
And man, they just, they broke before God and said we need, we
33:45
need to, to restore this thing. And God really helped them as
33:49
well. We have a young man currently in
33:50
our church. Just yesterday, he got to go
33:52
home and he'd been in a cancer hospital for months, months.
33:57
Doctors like we can't do anything else.
33:59
And I watched his dad pray and pray and pray and get other
34:03
people around to pray. And we, the church have been
34:04
praying also for this young man. I mean, God seems to be healing
34:08
him as well. And so God's able to do
34:10
anything. He uses the hard things in our
34:12
lives to draw us to himself. Nobody wants to go through hard
34:15
things. I heard Chuck Swindoll say years
34:16
ago, the hardest times in my life.
34:18
I never would want to have to have to live again, he said.
34:21
But the lessons that I learned while going through those
34:24
things, I wouldn't trade for anything.
34:26
So I think we have to have hope that God is with us and that He
34:30
can help us no matter what we're going through.
34:31
Yeah, it's like them. It's like that sayings that
34:33
goes, you know, God will take your mess and turn it into a
34:36
message. And I would never want to go
34:38
through the hard things that I've been through again.
34:40
But in a lot of ways, I'm grateful for them because it's
34:42
made me who I am today. So let's just talk a little bit
34:45
to the to the listeners here for a moment, for the listeners who
34:48
feel like they're they're just feeling overwhelmed.
34:51
They're they're fighting silent battles in their home.
34:54
What practical habits or rhythms can they begin to take today to
34:59
strengthen their family's emotional and spiritual health?
35:03
Yeah, it's a good question. I'll use the old cliche that
35:06
says you need to put the life vest on yourself first before
35:09
you can put it on to somebody else.
35:11
You have to be taking care of yourself.
35:13
And I think it's more than just read your Bible and pray,
35:16
though. I think that's really, really
35:17
important. I think it's making sure you're
35:19
physically taking care of yourself.
35:21
Like make sure you're eating good, getting as much sleep as
35:24
you can. Like if your thing is snicker
35:26
bars and that's just your go to, like for comfort food, whatever.
35:30
Like, like really see, you know, I need to be taking care of
35:34
myself physically, You know, as well, it's not always possible,
35:37
especially if you got young kids at the house or whatever your
35:40
home environment is to make sure you get enough sleep, but to
35:43
really reduce that stress as well.
35:45
I think like you said earlier, being in a good community with
35:48
other people is really important.
35:49
Who are those very few people that know you, that you're
35:53
vulnerable enough with them that they can speak into your life,
35:56
but also just encourage you? One of the things I was going to
35:59
go back to it was something you had made in one of your comments
36:02
about encouraging people like our spoken words.
36:06
Many of us are good at speaking kind words to other people that
36:09
have a really hard time at receiving those as well.
36:12
Some of the most powerful things for me and encouragement has
36:15
been when an older man has made a comment on a character, a good
36:21
character thing that they see in me.
36:23
And one of the the phrases that I'm starting to use now is don't
36:26
only compliment someone's actions.
36:28
As far as like, you know, you, you did the best here.
36:31
You preached a great message, compliment their character.
36:34
So compliment someone's character of hey, that was a
36:37
kind thing that you did. Hey, you showed integrity.
36:40
Hey, you should self-control. You were generous with this
36:43
other person as well. So I think surrounding yourself
36:46
with people who are going to again, speak words of life and
36:49
not condemnation into your life, I think that's something really
36:51
important that people can can practice on a daily, on a daily
36:57
basis. Each one of us has different
36:59
thresholds that we go through or, or needs don't.
37:01
Like today is like, you know, today's nice bright sunny day
37:04
with all the snow around here, like pretty positive today.
37:07
Yesterday, man, there's a lot of clouds kind of overcast.
37:10
The day before, you know, it snowed, man.
37:13
It was just kind of gloomy and heavy.
37:15
Just recognize every day is not going to be like, let's go take
37:18
on the world kind of day. I mean, you need to be OK with
37:21
that, with being able to express that without having to don't
37:24
drag everybody down around you. But it's OK to be like, hey, you
37:27
know, I'm, I'm having a hard day.
37:29
You know, I'm hopeful, but I'm just not that peppy, cheery
37:32
person, you know that I am. I think getting into God's Word
37:36
is really, really important as well, having rhythms of prayer.
37:39
One of the ministries at our church that I'm helping to lead
37:41
is a ministry of prayer. And I've been reading several
37:43
books about prayer and people who prayed and it's just a
37:46
dependence on God and communicating to him, interced,
37:50
interceding for other people. But I really encourage as I've
37:54
read that book and look forward to helping people and
37:57
encouraging them through prayer. But but you got to surround
38:00
yourself with people like that individually, getting into God's
38:03
Word, memorizing Scripture, but also being around other people
38:07
who are going to encourage you. I wanted to be able to speak
38:10
biblical truth into your life as well.
38:12
God gave us 24 hours in the day to do His will and part of that
38:15
needs to be listening, learning from other people who can again
38:19
spiritually encourage us during these times.
38:21
Yeah, that's good. You know, there's an importance
38:23
there to managing your inner, your inner, your inner life, You
38:27
know, your yourself. And like you said, put the life
38:30
best on yourself before you put it on other people.
38:32
You have to be be able to order your private world before you
38:36
can have an effective world outside of your inside, because
38:41
everything that goes in, everything that you you're doing
38:44
yourself is going to eventually spill over into the other areas
38:47
of your life. I just started a reading a book
38:50
this week. Actually, it's called ordering
38:52
your private world by Gordon and MacDonald.
38:55
And it is just, it's so good. And it, it talks about exactly
38:59
that and the importance of just ordering the, you know, private
39:02
world before in order to have the spillover into the, into the
39:06
public world of, you know, the, the outside world the others
39:09
see. So I'm glad that you brought
39:11
that up. So what encouragement would you
39:13
give to the parent or spouse or family member who feels like
39:17
that they have failed and and or their family situation is too
39:22
far gone for her to be able to happen?
39:25
Yeah, each one of us have gone through difficult things that
39:28
happen in life. I think, I think that one thing
39:30
that could really be meaningful to someone who maybe either got
39:34
caught or fessed up or like they, we talked about in
39:38
recovery ministries about spinning plates.
39:41
And you know, we, we, we, life is about spinning plates when
39:44
you're in recovery or just life management, But eventually, like
39:47
the plates come crashing down. And I think that when those
39:50
kinds of moments happen, that having a posture, personally,
39:53
having a posture of humility of ownership, like, Yep, I screwed
39:57
up. And when people say things that
39:59
are really hard to you, your, your instant response is going
40:03
to be to lash back out or try to justify or to defend.
40:06
Listen, we just have to own some stuff and say, Yep, I got angry
40:09
and I punched a hole in the wall, you know, or I screamed
40:12
and yelled at the person, you know, and I should or you and I
40:16
should not have done that. I think admission is something
40:19
that's really, really important. And that's one of the steps that
40:22
we walk through in Recovery ministries is being able to
40:24
admit that we're powerless over. Our tendency to do sin all the
40:28
time, we also have to realize the damage that's been done to
40:31
other people. Sometimes we need help in
40:33
understanding that as well. I remember when I was young, one
40:36
of the things that my dad used to say was, you know, he would
40:38
tease a lot. And I'm a soft, soft, spirited
40:41
kind of guy. And man, that is a young kid.
40:43
You know, I would cry because it hurt my feelings and stuff.
40:45
And I remember my dad saying, you know, you know, all of a
40:47
sudden you just need to to toughen up.
40:49
You like, like you, you need thicker skin.
40:52
And to this day, I despise that phrase, you know, a thick skin
40:54
because that's not how God created me.
40:56
Like, like God created me as a tender person who gets his
40:59
feelings hurt, but I'm also able to compassionately come
41:02
alongside of other people who are hurting also.
41:04
So I think that one thing we can do is if we don't feel that we
41:08
hurt someone or that our actions really didn't 'cause that kind
41:11
of damage, to be humble enough to say, how did that affect you?
41:14
You know, the old phrase, you know, how did that make you feel
41:17
like, you know, by me doing that, be humble and asking that.
41:20
And then if someone says, yeah, what you said or what you did,
41:23
man, that really hurt me in ways that, you know, that you didn't
41:26
see, be willing to ask for forgiveness to confess that and
41:29
say, you know what, I believe you that especially when we're
41:31
talking spousal relationships, spousal relationships, you know,
41:35
I did hurt you and and I'm sorry for that.
41:37
You know, one thing I used to do years ago, God's helping helped
41:41
me with this is I would say, you know, hey, honey, I'm going to
41:44
be home at 5:00. You know, supper can be ready at
41:46
5:15. I'll, I'll be ready to go and
41:49
like truly to my defense, on the way out, somebody would want to
41:52
talk to me or I'd get a phone call or whatever.
41:54
And it's like 6:00 before I'm rolling in and Kathy is like you
41:57
said you were going to be home. I know, I know.
41:59
But all these other important things happen.
42:01
I'll never forget it was many years ago, I came home one time,
42:04
like at 55 o'clock, like I was truly home and she hadn't
42:07
started supper. Not, you know, I'm like, I
42:10
thought you said you were going to have, you know, dinner ready,
42:12
you know, 5:15. And she just real calmly and
42:15
humbly said to me, she goes, you say that you're going to be home
42:17
by 5:00 and she goes, I just really wanted to wait to see
42:22
the, the, the white of your eyes till you were actually home
42:24
before I started because really I, I couldn't trust your word,
42:27
man. That was like a knife just
42:28
killed me. But she was right.
42:30
And so I started changing some of those behaviors.
42:32
I could have become defensive and, but like, Oh, you don't
42:34
know what you're talking about and all those other things, but
42:37
I was like, you know, you're right.
42:38
And so a humble posture is one of those things too.
42:41
And then also just being truthful.
42:42
One thing that I'm not good at, especially, I mean around all
42:45
kinds of people is if I do get my feelings hurt or if something
42:49
does affect me, I'm very slow to actually admit that.
42:52
It takes somebody a long time to draw that out of me because I
42:54
don't want to make you feel bad in the process.
42:56
It's this whole codependent, horrible thing that I that I
42:59
suffer with, but I want to make sure that I am at least truthful
43:03
and transparent. One thing that I'm trying to get
43:04
better at is when someone asks me a question like that, I just
43:08
state the facts. Like yes, short answers, but to
43:12
at least get that out there. Because if I do keep it stuffed
43:15
in, it becomes a resentment. That little, that little seed of
43:18
resentment, man, it will grow. And then when it comes out, it's
43:21
bad and it's ugly. And if I can keep short accounts
43:24
with people as well. Don't let the sun go down in
43:26
your wrath. All kind of verses like that, at
43:28
least for me, have been helpful. Sometimes you're going to need
43:31
to bring some other people into the situation.
43:33
At our church, I hope with some couples that are going through
43:37
just marriage hard things, or even over the years I've helped
43:41
parents with children when they're going through difficult
43:43
things as well. It's OK to ask somebody, a
43:46
trusted person to enter into your situation for help.
43:50
And Proverbs says you know it. It's wise to have a multitude of
43:53
counselors, like a multitude of people who again, wise people,
43:57
people who show a discernment, people who are going to look at
43:59
it from a godly perspective, to be able to come alongside and
44:03
come into your world and to be able to to say things not in a
44:06
condemning way, but just in a truthful way as well.
44:09
And so we need men like that in our lives and we need women and
44:12
parents like that in our lives. We need older people with us as
44:16
well. Like look for people in
44:18
different generations. Because when you get to my age,
44:21
you realize that you're the older man in the older men teach
44:24
the younger men like, like, I'd like that.
44:26
And I'm still one of the younger men because I still have older
44:28
men and older than me. So like, you know, you're
44:31
hitting 4050 years old just like you have if you're a follower of
44:36
Christ, you're not perfect person, but you have things to
44:38
offer from that next generation to be able to help them.
44:41
Just like some people helped us when we were in that generation
44:45
as well. And that's the beauty of a good,
44:47
solid, healthy church where we can one another one another and
44:50
help each other grow as followers of Christ.
44:52
I love that you you, you mentioned you.
44:55
Know you're never too, you're never too far gone to help
44:57
somebody else. You know that everything that
44:59
you go through is you're going through for a reason and you can
45:02
help somebody else. I was at a men's conference here
45:05
about a month ago, month and a half ago.
45:08
And the speaker said, you know, if, if you need help with
45:12
something, then go up to another man about 10 years your senior
45:16
that's been through life with you, go up to them and say, hey,
45:20
I need help. Can I take you out to a steak
45:23
dinner? Now, if you, if you say, can I
45:25
take you out to a steak dinner, you've earned the right to have
45:28
that person set across from you and ask whatever questions that
45:31
you want to ask. And chances are they're not
45:33
going to say no because you're offering to buy a mistake
45:35
dinner. That's good.
45:36
And so if that's your, that's your rite of passage, you want
45:39
to buy a mistake dinner, you ask the questions and they're going
45:42
to sit there and they're going to help you through it.
45:44
And then likewise, you can be there to have somebody else buy
45:47
you a steak dinner. Now it doesn't have to be steak,
45:49
obviously budget minded of course, but the point is ask for
45:55
help and realize that you can help other people and if you can
45:59
help other people than other people can help you.
46:01
And nothing that you have gone through, it makes you too far
46:06
gone. Whether it's on individual level
46:08
or family level, there's always help out there.
46:10
There's always a way through it. You just have to be willing to
46:13
ask for it and then put in the work.
46:15
Yeah, you bring up a good point. You know, being in ministry for
46:18
a few years, I've had men sit across the table for me and just
46:22
share some hard stuff, mistakes that they've made, illegal
46:25
stuff, things that couple of them actually went to jail for
46:29
because not from me, just because of the sowing and
46:32
reaping kinds of things in the world.
46:33
But being able to be open and honest with another man like
46:37
that, that helps free you from the power of that stronghold
46:41
that you have in your life from that struggle.
46:43
And I also don't know of any older man who that if you, if
46:46
somebody, if a young man came up to me and just said, Hey, can I,
46:49
can I take you out for especially steak dinner?
46:51
But can I take you out for coffee just because, like I just
46:53
got some things that I want to want to talk through.
46:55
I'm not going to deny that guy. I'm got to say absolutely.
46:58
And so I think that we need to be ready to do that.
47:01
Younger men, you need to be willing to be open and honest,
47:04
humble and go to that older man that you see, observe them, see
47:07
how they talk to their spouse, see how they conduct themselves
47:10
in their workplace and just say, hey, I need to learn some things
47:13
as well. Always be a learner.
47:15
Always be ready to learn something that's that's a
47:19
posture of humility that will help develop you into a more
47:24
godly man or woman. Well said.
47:26
Well said. Well, Bill, thank you so much
47:28
for being with us today here on Unmasked and and sharing some
47:32
insights that I know is going to help other families that are out
47:36
there and individuals that are going through some hard times.
47:39
Wes, it's always a pleasure to talk with you.
47:41
I've appreciated our friendship over the years.
47:43
Super excited that you're doing this podcast called Unmasked,
47:47
talking about things that not tons of podcasts that are out
47:50
there as well. But I think that you're
47:52
encouraging men and women, couples, singles, grandmas and
47:56
grandpas, younger people as well to say there are some things
47:59
that really do matter in life. And, and we really need some
48:02
help walking through again, this this idea of being unmasked.
48:06
Because again, like that verse says, you can't heal a wound by
48:09
saying it's not there, but bringing these things to light.
48:11
So I'm encouraged by it. Looking forward to how God's
48:14
going to use this particular podcast to help people know more
48:17
about him. Well, thanks for joining me
48:24
today on Unmasked and. A huge thanks to Bill for
48:27
sharing today so openly and honestly.
48:29
If this episode spoke to you, don't let it stop with you.
48:32
Share it with somebody else that God puts on your heart while you
48:35
were listening. You never know whose
48:37
breakthrough might start just with the simple message.
48:40
If you want more encouragement or want some information on
48:43
talking with me one-on-one, or you're interested in having me
48:45
speak at your church or events, you can find more information
48:48
about me at wesleyfernsworth.com.
48:50
Make sure you join the Unmasked community by connecting with me
48:53
on social media so that we can keep walking this journey
48:56
together. Until next time.
48:58
Remember that grace is greater than your past, and real freedom
49:01
begins the moment that you choose to live unmasked.
49:05
God bless you.