Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Jensen McRae

Transcript

Jensen McRae · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin. Jensen McRae writes songs that cut straight to the bone,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: intimate examinations of identity, relationships, and the complexities of coming
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: of age in today's world. Since releasing her debut EP
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Who Hurt You in twenty twenty one, she's garnered attention
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: for her literary approach to songwriting and her ability to
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: balance vulnerability with sharp observation. Her music often grapples with
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: difficult subjects, navigating mixed race identity, processing, heartbreak, and confronting
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: the uncomfortable truths we tell ourselves, but there's also a
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: warmth and humor in her work, which can be heard
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: in this episode when she performs three songs Savannah, White Boy,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: and let Me Be Wrong from her new album I
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Don't Know How but They've Found Me. On today's episode,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I talked to Jensen McCray about her journey as an artist,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: why she gravitates towards niche communities online on Reddit, and
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: her list of goals that include both winning the Grammy
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: for Album of the Year and the mayoral run in
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: our native Los Angeles. This is broken record, real musicians,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: real conversations. Here's my conversation with Jensen McCrae, where she
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: begins things with a live rendition of her song, Savannah, there.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Is an inner section in your college town.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: WI your name, honing with your name morning.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: You are said he couldn't wait to take them, should
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: have been Honor.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: Calls you out, honor.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Disass side from God and archred l your fly.
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: See him in wad.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: You try start to fly your curbridgesy saving LANDA well,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: no under you, ask man of HAMI someone new.
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: Um to sup.
• 2:42
  Speaker 5: Here is a boy in out loud in on theth.
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: A bloody face.
• 2:49
  Speaker 6: Come you were tied embombing.
• 2:56
  Speaker 5: You swore raise our kidstand just like you with your
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: fast crafting. That's a goddamn commense.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: Sassy side from.
• 3:12
  Speaker 6: God and archerd l on by You see him in
• 3:20
  Speaker 6: water n you try start by the bridges.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: He's standing leader.
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: Well, no one under you, hossman of coming left someone
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: new ungoing to Supana. Come I hear it's hot and
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: the greatest ride his head le is away.
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: He used to up.
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: It's twenty one, he used to call those swim bitches.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: Did in you if you're the sweet like honeydew.
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: Shvy how to talk to bus pass his side from.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: Her Trey Lyley on why.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: You See.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: It?
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: Tried to start a fire for bridges, he stabbing Leanna,
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: you lost me?
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: So you want manner? Coming love with someone new, Come
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: in to Survivana, Go.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: To Surveveano, Go went to Sana, Go.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: To oh Man, so good, thank you oh Man. What
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: how did that song start?
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: Well?
• 5:32
  Speaker 7: I wrote it a week after my first album came out,
• 5:36
  Speaker 7: and so I wasn't in the head space of necessarily
• 5:39
  Speaker 7: knowing or thinking about what I was making. But I
• 5:43
  Speaker 7: had this very weird thing happened to me where I
• 5:45
  Speaker 7: had two boyfriends in a row asked me to go
• 5:47
  Speaker 7: with them to Savannah.
• 5:48
  Speaker 8: Georgia, which is I have very Wrongnah?
• 5:51
  Speaker 7: No, they just both had reason to go and wanted
• 5:55
  Speaker 7: me to go with them, and I had never thought
• 5:56
  Speaker 7: about it before, and I just I didn't go with
• 6:00
  Speaker 7: the first one. But before I went with the second one,
• 6:04
  Speaker 7: I just started thinking about the city and its history,
• 6:07
  Speaker 7: and I found out how haunted it, and I just
• 6:10
  Speaker 7: started thinking about ghosts in the past, and I wrote
• 6:13
  Speaker 7: about how it feels to not be able to outrun
• 6:15
  Speaker 7: your best.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Wow, your first album was Are you happy now? You
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: wrote that? I mean you wrote that right after the
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: First Time come out? Were you happy after the First
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Time came about?
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: Uh?
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was. I was.
• 6:29
  Speaker 7: I mean, I was relieved more than anything because I'd
• 6:32
  Speaker 7: been sitting on that album for three years and I
• 6:36
  Speaker 7: made it between the ages right about twenty one twenty two.
• 6:40
  Speaker 7: That was when I was making it, and then I
• 6:41
  Speaker 7: was twenty four when it came out, and I just
• 6:44
  Speaker 7: felt like I had already changed so much and I
• 6:47
  Speaker 7: was really happy to be telling that story, relieved that
• 6:50
  Speaker 7: it was finally out of my hands and into other
• 6:51
  Speaker 7: people's hands, and just really excited about being able to
• 6:54
  Speaker 7: tour it and see the world as a result of it.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Is that is that because a lot of people will
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: release a record, even if it's one they've been sin
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: on for a while, but release it and it's just
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: like there's not a lot of writing going on like
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: immediately after. But is that, like is that part of
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: a feature of your personality? Like are you? Are you
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: always onto the next thing? Is that? Or was it
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: that just happened?
• 7:16
  Speaker 7: I'd say generally, it's interesting because in the aftermath of
• 7:20
  Speaker 7: this most recent album, I definitely have not felt like
• 7:22
  Speaker 7: I have as much time to write. I've written a
• 7:24
  Speaker 7: little bit, but after the first album came out, I
• 7:26
  Speaker 7: felt like I was still really going, Like it felt
• 7:29
  Speaker 7: like the writing process was just not done. But also
• 7:32
  Speaker 7: a big difference is that, like my audience is a
• 7:33
  Speaker 7: lot bigger now. The rollout of this album has been
• 7:37
  Speaker 7: met with more fanfare, so like I have a lot
• 7:39
  Speaker 7: more press obligations.
• 7:40
  Speaker 8: I want more touring obligations. So I'm just like not
• 7:42
  Speaker 8: home in the way that I was three years ago.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So Savannah, you so you're asked two times by
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: two different people. Did you write that before you went,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: like as you were learning about it? Or did did
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: you rewrite anything after you went? Did you end up going?
• 7:59
  Speaker 8: I did end up going, and I didn't rewrite anything.
• 8:01
  Speaker 7: It still felt I mean, I definitely heard the voice
• 8:03
  Speaker 7: memo in my head while I was there, but it
• 8:05
  Speaker 7: felt very apt even after I actually ended up going,
• 8:07
  Speaker 7: felt accurate.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: And what happened with did did? Why were you there?
• 8:15
  Speaker 8: It was it was for a work trip.
• 8:16
  Speaker 7: Coincidentally, he was just gonna be in Savannah, and he
• 8:19
  Speaker 7: asked if I wanted to visit him while he was there,
• 8:21
  Speaker 7: and I was like, I think I have to go
• 8:22
  Speaker 7: because I've been asked now twice, and I think I
• 8:24
  Speaker 7: have to see this place.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 8:27
  Speaker 7: People were very A lot of people ask me about
• 8:29
  Speaker 7: like why Savannah, and it is a very odd story,
• 8:32
  Speaker 7: and I think it is a really special city. Like
• 8:34
  Speaker 7: I mean, ghost tours are like a big part of
• 8:36
  Speaker 7: the attraction of the city, and like there's I mean
• 8:40
  Speaker 7: there's so many like bachelorette Like while I was there,
• 8:42
  Speaker 7: I saw a wedding and a bachelorette party, and I
• 8:44
  Speaker 7: think then we were joking like, oh, we have to
• 8:45
  Speaker 7: see a proposal and divorce and then we'll have the.
• 8:47
  Speaker 8: Full the full set.
• 8:50
  Speaker 7: And yeah, it's super humid, like obviously, like I remember
• 8:53
  Speaker 7: when I got there, like I felt like I was
• 8:54
  Speaker 7: swimming standing up because it was just like the air
• 8:56
  Speaker 7: was just so thick, and like that'll just make you
• 8:59
  Speaker 7: feel feelings like when you're in intense weather like that,
• 9:01
  Speaker 7: like it just stirs up I think, strong emotions and everybody.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: It makes you feel well, alive, you're dead or something
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: with it's like you're like absolutely something can go wrong. Perhaps, yes,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: that's pretty wrong. Yeah, did you write anything while they're
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: like based on.
• 9:18
  Speaker 8: I don't think I did.
• 9:19
  Speaker 7: I don't think I did, but I feel like I'd
• 9:22
  Speaker 7: probably go back, And I remember thinking being there and
• 9:25
  Speaker 7: also being in a lot of other cities I've visited
• 9:27
  Speaker 7: on tour, like these smaller towns are very conducive to writing.
• 9:30
  Speaker 7: I think I think it would be good to do
• 9:31
  Speaker 7: like a writing retreat at some point, like get an
• 9:34
  Speaker 7: Airbnb and just like hole up somewhere and try to
• 9:36
  Speaker 7: write as much as possible. Yeah, because there's not as
• 9:39
  Speaker 7: much noise and as much distraction as there is in
• 9:40
  Speaker 7: a place like La.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird growing up in LA and then going
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: to other places where you realize like, oh, like you
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: know your friends will be from other places than you go,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: and you realize like, wow, I really grew up in
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: a place that was not normal.
• 9:53
  Speaker 8: Yeah, Like I have that realization so much.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: When did when did you first start getting outside of
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: out of outside of LA for music?
• 10:04
  Speaker 7: It didn't start until really until twenty twenty two, because
• 10:08
  Speaker 7: I grew up in LA and and then I went
• 10:09
  Speaker 7: to music school for college in LA and then a
• 10:12
  Speaker 7: year after I graduated, the pandemic started, and so I
• 10:15
  Speaker 7: wasn't touring at all or going anywhere, And so I
• 10:18
  Speaker 7: started touring in twenty twenty two and that was when
• 10:20
  Speaker 7: I started really meaningfully playing music in other places. And yeah,
• 10:25
  Speaker 7: I just really saw the contrast of where I grew
• 10:27
  Speaker 7: up with everywhere else. Like obviously there's just like the
• 10:30
  Speaker 7: pace and the population, but it's just like the way
• 10:33
  Speaker 7: people carry themselves. Like I always heard people say that
• 10:36
  Speaker 7: LA was a place of you know, a lot of
• 10:37
  Speaker 7: posturing and like a lot of people being fake. And
• 10:40
  Speaker 7: I never understood it because, like, I know so many great,
• 10:42
  Speaker 7: down to earth, authentic people in LA. But then I
• 10:44
  Speaker 7: went to other places and I was like, oh, people
• 10:46
  Speaker 7: are not putting on airs to go to the grocery store.
• 10:49
  Speaker 7: Like people are not They're just not as obsessed about
• 10:52
  Speaker 7: appearances and other places as they are here. And I realized,
• 10:55
  Speaker 7: like how that probably took a psychic toll on me
• 10:57
  Speaker 7: as a teenager in a way that I didn't comprehend
• 10:58
  Speaker 7: until I was an adult.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: No, it's true. I even I like I live. I
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: moved to Long Beach, and even just being like a
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: little outside of the city, You're like, yo, like it's
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: a very different way, Like nobody gives a fuck question
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: at the grocery store, you know, as an example, like
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: you just you can go in your pajama's at the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: grocery store and not feel like, yeah, it's a different
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: way of it's probably a healthier way of living.
• 11:20
  Speaker 7: Probably, yeah, But I do have an appreciation for having
• 11:23
  Speaker 7: grown up in LA for all of the for all
• 11:25
  Speaker 7: of its flaws. Like I'm such an LA apologist. I love, love,
• 11:29
  Speaker 7: love Los Angeles.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: What do you love about it?
• 11:31
  Speaker 7: Well, I mean the weather is obviously a huge part
• 11:33
  Speaker 7: of it, and there's just something about the air, which
• 11:36
  Speaker 7: some people would say it is pollution, but I like
• 11:38
  Speaker 7: there's something about the air and the light that's just
• 11:40
  Speaker 7: like very comforting to me. And it feels like there's
• 11:42
  Speaker 7: just so much possibility, maybe because the city is so
• 11:44
  Speaker 7: spread out and it's so many neighborhoods, like it feels
• 11:47
  Speaker 7: like it never ends. And it feels like even though
• 11:49
  Speaker 7: I've lived here my whole life, there's still so much
• 11:51
  Speaker 7: I haven't explored. And I love that feeling of like endlessness.
• 11:56
  Speaker 7: And also my whole family lives here, so it just
• 11:57
  Speaker 7: feels very comforting to know that, like my brothers and
• 12:00
  Speaker 7: my parents are just a drive away, Like I find.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: I just love like one thing you dislike about LA.
• 12:05
  Speaker 9: I mean, the.
• 12:06
  Speaker 8: Traffic obviously is bad. That's a gimme, Yeah, that's anything
• 12:09
  Speaker 8: else I don't like.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: I don't like.
• 12:11
  Speaker 7: I guess I don't like the ways and even though
• 12:13
  Speaker 7: I do, I love my air one and I love
• 12:14
  Speaker 7: the growth, I don't like the ways in which that
• 12:16
  Speaker 7: has become representative for the entire city because like people
• 12:20
  Speaker 7: are always shocked, for example, to find out that I'm
• 12:22
  Speaker 7: from here, and I think it's because I'm not like
• 12:24
  Speaker 7: a white woman with blonde hair drinking kale juice. But
• 12:27
  Speaker 7: it's like I'm a black woman drinking kale juice first
• 12:28
  Speaker 7: of all, and like there's just so much there's just
• 12:32
  Speaker 7: so much diversity, Like I love, like I love hearing Spanish,
• 12:35
  Speaker 7: Like that's another thing I love about like.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Places. Yes, yeah, I miss.
• 12:39
  Speaker 7: Hearing Spanish when I leave, and like there it just
• 12:42
  Speaker 7: it makes me sad when people write I guess maybe
• 12:45
  Speaker 7: this isn't a thing I just like about LA. But
• 12:47
  Speaker 7: people saying that they hate LA because they're like, oh,
• 12:49
  Speaker 7: I don't like influencers or like I don't like fake people,
• 12:53
  Speaker 7: or I don't like the entertainment industry, and I'm like,
• 12:56
  Speaker 7: even the things you dislike about it are more complex
• 12:58
  Speaker 7: than you're realizing. They are lovely influencers and lovely people
• 13:01
  Speaker 7: in the entertainment industry, and I've met them and like, yeah,
• 13:04
  Speaker 7: I I it disappoints me when people allow their vision
• 13:07
  Speaker 7: of LA to be super one dimensional and stereotypical, when
• 13:10
  Speaker 7: there's just so much depth to living here.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed, Well, well said, thank you, and.
• 13:18
  Speaker 8: Listen when I run for mayor what then, Wow, I
• 13:21
  Speaker 8: would vote for you, Thank you, thank you.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Wait, we could use it.
• 13:25
  Speaker 8: I'm scheming. I'm plotting and scheming in you know, in
• 13:28
  Speaker 8: like fifteen years.
• 13:30
  Speaker 7: That's on the it's on the vision board job. I mean,
• 13:32
  Speaker 7: I'm like, it's kind of a joke, but also it's real.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: There's a party that would like to run from Really.
• 13:38
  Speaker 8: Everyone tells me not to, but I'm still thinking about it.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: When did that? When did that start?
• 13:43
  Speaker 7: I just love LA so much and I have so
• 13:45
  Speaker 7: many great ideas. And I don't want to be the
• 13:47
  Speaker 7: president because that's too much work. But I want to
• 13:49
  Speaker 7: be the president when I was a child because I'm
• 13:50
  Speaker 7: a natural leader, and I would love I would love
• 13:54
  Speaker 7: to be the mayor of Los Angeles and see if
• 13:56
  Speaker 7: I can implement some of those ideas. But then, of
• 13:58
  Speaker 7: course people are like well, if you just become rich
• 14:00
  Speaker 7: and famous, you can implement your ideas without having to
• 14:02
  Speaker 7: go through the red tape of politics, which is maybe
• 14:05
  Speaker 7: very well be true. But I just I'm not ruling
• 14:07
  Speaker 7: out a mayor all run when I'm older.
• 14:08
  Speaker 8: I don't want to do it now. I have too
• 14:09
  Speaker 8: much music to do.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: But it's more than to put it on the table
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: so people aren't like surprised when it happened huge like
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Arnold farzeneggeror sounds like just from the beginning to say
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: like I don't want to. I'm going to marry into
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: the Kennedy family so I can. It's certainly not that, no,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's unseems cool. I don't know.
• 14:25
  Speaker 8: No, I don't want to know. It'll be It'll be
• 14:28
  Speaker 8: my political agenda will not be a marriage, but not
• 14:30
  Speaker 8: be a marriage of politics.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: I don't want to get too derailed by this. But
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: what are your ideas to fix? Well?
• 14:35
  Speaker 7: I want there to be a fleet of electric buses
• 14:37
  Speaker 7: that get implemented, because I don't think I love the metro.
• 14:39
  Speaker 8: I took it in college actually, but.
• 14:42
  Speaker 7: It'd be it's really really hard on people's commutes to
• 14:45
  Speaker 7: be adding more metro lines, and I think one day
• 14:47
  Speaker 7: that is the vision. But I think in the meantime,
• 14:49
  Speaker 7: if we just get a fleet of super clean electric
• 14:51
  Speaker 7: buses that are on the street, and we just overrun
• 14:53
  Speaker 7: the street so that people will just become so inconvenienced
• 14:55
  Speaker 7: by driving that they'll just get on the super clean
• 14:57
  Speaker 7: new electric.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Bus because the buses are slowing down there.
• 15:01
  Speaker 8: There's but also because the buses look cool, they'll be
• 15:03
  Speaker 8: nice and brand new.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: To your point, though, LA is so big, it is
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: so big, Like you know, off, I don't know where
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: you live. Let's say you're in Santa Monica. You know
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: it's not but it's not weird living here to be
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: like I'm going to go drive to like, you know,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: to the Huntington on a Saturday afternoon. Oh yeah, are
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: you going to take the bus from Santa Monica to
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: the Huntington.
• 15:23
  Speaker 8: Ever, Well, I don't know that. I don't know.
• 15:25
  Speaker 7: I think we still will have cars, but I think
• 15:27
  Speaker 7: it should be a thing where like that's what cars
• 15:29
  Speaker 7: are for, is for when you're making the big cross
• 15:32
  Speaker 7: La Trek, but when you're in like your immediate neighbor,
• 15:34
  Speaker 7: like if you live in Echo Park, like and you
• 15:36
  Speaker 7: just want to go to Silver La or Los Felis,
• 15:37
  Speaker 7: like you should be able to hop on a really
• 15:38
  Speaker 7: nice clean electric bus to go there, as opposed to
• 15:41
  Speaker 7: having a drive and find parking which is a nightmare.
• 15:43
  Speaker 7: And yeah, I think there's I mean, there's an art
• 15:45
  Speaker 7: to road trips. If I've learned anything from touring, it's
• 15:47
  Speaker 7: at a great long road trip can be very healing
• 15:49
  Speaker 7: for the soul. But I just think it'd be nice
• 15:52
  Speaker 7: to have more options because like, I love living and
• 15:53
  Speaker 7: spending time in London as well. They obviously have a
• 15:56
  Speaker 7: great tube, they have great buses, and there are people
• 15:58
  Speaker 7: in London with cars, but like you just don't have to.
• 16:01
  Speaker 7: It's a nice to be freed from the shackles of
• 16:02
  Speaker 7: big car.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: You're You're right, You are right when you say there's
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: an art to toryn like do you is there are
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: to road trips?
• 16:11
  Speaker 8: What?
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Like? How do you well?
• 16:12
  Speaker 7: The most important part of road trip is the playlist,
• 16:14
  Speaker 7: and I love It's funny because on this last tour
• 16:17
  Speaker 7: I was in a van with a band for the
• 16:19
  Speaker 7: first time, and we were all yapping so much that
• 16:21
  Speaker 7: there wasn't that much attention being paid to the music.
• 16:24
  Speaker 7: Like at one point my guitar player drives sometimes and
• 16:26
  Speaker 7: he put on The West Side Story soundtrack for me,
• 16:28
  Speaker 7: cause that's my favorite musical.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Wait, yo, that's a good soundtrack.
• 16:31
  Speaker 8: It's really good and it's great for driving. It was
• 16:33
  Speaker 8: like a late night drive and it was perfect.
• 16:34
  Speaker 7: But when I was touring, what would be like just
• 16:36
  Speaker 7: me and my manager, Like I would curate playlists and
• 16:39
  Speaker 7: sometimes they would come to me, like in the dead
• 16:40
  Speaker 7: of night. Like I woke up in the middle of
• 16:42
  Speaker 7: the night one time to make a playlist that was
• 16:45
  Speaker 7: in my feelings and Rich Girl by Hollo know Its
• 16:48
  Speaker 7: and the Boy Is Mine and I was like, this
• 16:50
  Speaker 7: is the start.
• 16:50
  Speaker 8: I don't know what else is going on, but these
• 16:52
  Speaker 8: are the first three songs.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's good. Wait what was the first one in?
• 16:57
  Speaker 7: And then a Rich Girl and then the Boy's Mine.
• 16:59
  Speaker 7: I was like, that's how this playlist is starting. I
• 17:00
  Speaker 7: don't know where it's going, but I had to like
• 17:01
  Speaker 7: it's a fever dream of like this must be how
• 17:03
  Speaker 7: it begins.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: That's inspired. That's inspired work. I would love to know it.
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: Oh.
• 17:10
  Speaker 8: I ended up being hundreds of songs, but I liked
• 17:11
  Speaker 8: doing a mix of like old school stuff, like stuff
• 17:14
  Speaker 8: from my childhood.
• 17:16
  Speaker 7: I love Craig David. No one talks about seven Days
• 17:19
  Speaker 7: and fill me In?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love me.
• 17:21
  Speaker 8: I was in a hotel.
• 17:23
  Speaker 7: I was standing outside of a hotel in Berlin at
• 17:25
  Speaker 7: the beginning of the last leg of this tour, and
• 17:26
  Speaker 7: fill Me In started playing over the speakers and I
• 17:29
  Speaker 7: was like, this is so And I was with my manager.
• 17:31
  Speaker 8: She couldn't hear it, and I was like, no, no,
• 17:33
  Speaker 8: it's definitely happening. It was like raining. I was jet labbed.
• 17:36
  Speaker 8: I was like, I'm maybe I'm hallucinating, but don't talk
• 17:41
  Speaker 8: about Kig David.
• 17:41
  Speaker 7: Kraig David always got to be in a playlist. Obviously
• 17:44
  Speaker 7: loved to put some brandy on there. Obviously loved to
• 17:46
  Speaker 7: put Holland notes. Like when I was a kid, I
• 17:48
  Speaker 7: listened to my parents played me a lot of like
• 17:50
  Speaker 7: James Taylor and Carol King like that always get the
• 17:52
  Speaker 7: mood up, Fleewood Mac, you know, just all the classics.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: But then you also go there parents on board with that.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: I was both, but they both that was both of
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: their musical diets.
• 18:01
  Speaker 7: My mom was the one who was more like the
• 18:04
  Speaker 7: She was like the James Taylor, Carol King stuff and
• 18:07
  Speaker 7: Stevie Wonder both my parents were. Stevie Wonder was like
• 18:09
  Speaker 7: the big overlap, I would say.
• 18:10
  Speaker 8: For my parents. Yeah, like my dad. So my dad
• 18:12
  Speaker 8: is a lawyer.
• 18:12
  Speaker 7: But he won my mom over by singing to her.
• 18:15
  Speaker 7: And he used to sing Donnie Hathaway and Stevie Wonder
• 18:18
  Speaker 7: to her.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Wait what yeah?
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: What?
• 18:20
  Speaker 8: Yeah?
• 18:20
  Speaker 7: He has a beautiful voice. Really, but he was like,
• 18:23
  Speaker 7: you know, he was like, I have to make money,
• 18:24
  Speaker 7: so he didn't. He didn't pursue it. But he went
• 18:26
  Speaker 7: to high school with Lenny Cravitz.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: What yeah, like in Venice.
• 18:29
  Speaker 8: They went to Beverly Hill High School.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: He's right, Okay, that's right, that's right.
• 18:32
  Speaker 8: What? Yeah? So he had like a he loves music
• 18:35
  Speaker 8: so much.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: But what grow where did he grow up?
• 18:37
  Speaker 8: He grew up here because his.
• 18:38
  Speaker 7: Dad was a football player and he ended up he
• 18:41
  Speaker 7: was My dad was born in Tennessee and his father
• 18:44
  Speaker 7: was traded to the Bears and then to the Rams
• 18:46
  Speaker 7: when he was really little, so he was he lived
• 18:48
  Speaker 7: in Chicago for a second, but then mostly grew up here. Wow?
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: And did he did? Him and Lenny did?
• 18:52
  Speaker 8: They They were friends?
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 18:53
  Speaker 8: What they're friendly?
• 18:54
  Speaker 7: I mean I don't think I don't think they've spoken
• 18:56
  Speaker 7: since they graduated. But my dad was telling me that
• 18:58
  Speaker 7: he went over to his house and like he heard
• 19:00
  Speaker 7: him play music and stuff.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's crazy, that's all right, hold lot.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: So so he would sing like that's that's yeah.
• 19:07
  Speaker 7: He would sing chances are and he would sing Lately
• 19:10
  Speaker 7: by Stevie Wonder.
• 19:11
  Speaker 8: Those are like the songs that he would sing.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Do you growing up?
• 19:14
  Speaker 7: He definitely sang like in passing, like he would sing
• 19:16
  Speaker 7: along to stuff in the car, like he would put
• 19:18
  Speaker 7: on I have this very vivid memory of when I
• 19:21
  Speaker 7: was thirteen, he did a re enactment of brown v.
• 19:25
  Speaker 7: Board of Education for like the anniversary of the trial.
• 19:27
  Speaker 7: Like he played Thirdgod Marshal, I.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Need a dad. I need a d right now? Can
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: he can he adopt me?
• 19:33
  Speaker 8: He would love to.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I will. He would love say, I'll put my papers
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: out there.
• 19:36
  Speaker 8: He was the final boss of dads. Oh he's like such,
• 19:39
  Speaker 8: he's such a dad Martin.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: This is incredible.
• 19:41
  Speaker 8: He's no, he's I mean, he's incredible, Like he's my hero.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: He re enacted Board v.
• 19:45
  Speaker 7: Brownie Board of Education, and I remember I sang the
• 19:47
  Speaker 7: national anthem at it. For some reason, I don't know
• 19:49
  Speaker 7: what was going on. There, but we did that when
• 19:50
  Speaker 7: I was thirteen, and I remember that we like were
• 19:52
  Speaker 7: at the maybe at a courthouse or this was happening,
• 19:55
  Speaker 7: and then we went out to dinner after and my
• 19:56
  Speaker 7: dad drove me home. My mom had my brothers in
• 19:59
  Speaker 7: the other car, and I remember that Return of the
• 20:01
  Speaker 7: Mac came on and my dad was singing along to that,
• 20:03
  Speaker 7: and I remember thinking that was like the happiest I've
• 20:05
  Speaker 7: ever seen him, was him singing Return of the Mac
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: after having just done this, how re enactment was like
• 20:10
  Speaker 7: the confluence of all his favorite stuff and so now
• 20:13
  Speaker 7: Return of the like him singing Return of the Mac,
• 20:15
  Speaker 7: is like a very happy memory memory for me. And
• 20:18
  Speaker 7: I think I had plotted at one point to have
• 20:20
  Speaker 7: that be my walkout song on stage, which I could
• 20:22
  Speaker 7: still do. I think I should.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Really that's strong. Yeah.
• 20:25
  Speaker 7: Also, my name's McCray, so it's like Return of the Mac.
• 20:27
  Speaker 7: It's like it kind of works for my name.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: It does, yeah, And it's that song is endlessly But.
• 20:33
  Speaker 7: He also likes to raps like he would he was
• 20:35
  Speaker 7: he actually is the person that put me on to
• 20:36
  Speaker 7: Kendrick Lamar. Really yeah, great when I was like seventeen,
• 20:42
  Speaker 7: like because he was aware of Timpa Butterfly before I
• 20:44
  Speaker 7: was really and he was like he put on the
• 20:46
  Speaker 7: black or the Berry when we were going on a hike.
• 20:48
  Speaker 8: And he was like, are you listening.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Listen kids in your high school not listening?
• 20:52
  Speaker 8: They were, but I just like wasn't.
• 20:54
  Speaker 7: I wasn't as tapped in and like I think people
• 20:56
  Speaker 7: had showed me, you know, the odd Kendrick song here
• 20:58
  Speaker 7: and there, but it was my dad. He was like,
• 20:59
  Speaker 7: this album is like one of he just he knew.
• 21:02
  Speaker 7: He was like, this is a classic album. These songs
• 21:03
  Speaker 7: are amazing.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, what was the first artist you connected with
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: as like this, like you know where you really identified
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: and became obsessed with It.
• 21:12
  Speaker 8: Was Alicia Keys.
• 21:14
  Speaker 7: Yeah, my mom played me Alicia Keys and it was
• 21:17
  Speaker 7: part of her campaign to like show me mixed race
• 21:20
  Speaker 7: people because like, my mom is white, my dad is black.
• 21:23
  Speaker 8: I was born in nineteen ninety seven. There wasn't like
• 21:25
  Speaker 8: a lot of there was representation.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Was starting like a lot of mix kids.
• 21:29
  Speaker 8: Now now there's so many.
• 21:30
  Speaker 7: Like my little brother's basketball team was like mostly mixed kids.
• 21:34
  Speaker 7: But like even the five years between us, it was
• 21:36
  Speaker 7: like it was it was like a chasm.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: You never get it. I get jealous of that a lot.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: I'm happy for them, but I walk around like I
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: really wish like I would thrive in this.
• 21:43
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I wonder I want It's there's like
• 21:46
  Speaker 7: such a trade off because it wasn't only it was
• 21:48
  Speaker 7: not only being mixed, but also like the political climate
• 21:52
  Speaker 7: of when I was growing up, Like, it wasn't when
• 21:54
  Speaker 7: I was a teenager.
• 21:54
  Speaker 8: It wasn't cool to be political.
• 21:56
  Speaker 7: And so I'm like, what, I have also thrived in
• 21:59
  Speaker 7: a time when we where it was like cool to
• 22:00
  Speaker 7: have political to talk about race, and to talk about
• 22:02
  Speaker 7: those things.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: When you were a kid. It wasn't we were a
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: teenager at well, I.
• 22:06
  Speaker 8: Mean when I was a kid, I don't think I
• 22:07
  Speaker 8: had political opinions.
• 22:08
  Speaker 7: But I was also eleven Barack Obama was elected, and
• 22:10
  Speaker 7: so like that whole like eleven to nineteen for me
• 22:13
  Speaker 7: was the Obama era.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: What did that do to you? Because I was that
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: was the first election I was able to vote it
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: into that. Well, I mean yes, but I'll say it
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: only set me and my generation up for disillusionments. Yeah,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: because you know suffered through Bush. Yeah, and then you
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: think we've fixed it, We're vote like what like I'm voting,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: and but it does feel like generation is a bit
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: younger than me. Yours like didn't took the Barack Obama
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: presidency for granted in a sumise.
• 22:46
  Speaker 8: Absolutely.
• 22:47
  Speaker 7: When I was a kid, I remember thinking all the
• 22:49
  Speaker 7: time that I wanted to live through something. I was like, oh, well,
• 22:51
  Speaker 7: we have a black president, and like we fixed racism,
• 22:54
  Speaker 7: and like I just was I mean, my parents did
• 22:56
  Speaker 7: a good job of protecting me from a lot of
• 22:58
  Speaker 7: the truth of the world when I was young, and
• 23:00
  Speaker 7: so I didn't know how many problems there were still
• 23:02
  Speaker 7: to be dealt with. And I really felt like I
• 23:06
  Speaker 7: was under this the impression that I wasn't going to
• 23:08
  Speaker 7: be the first black women to do anything, because I
• 23:10
  Speaker 7: was like, Oh, it's already been done, it's already been solved,
• 23:13
  Speaker 7: and now and then Yeah, the first election I was
• 23:14
  Speaker 7: able to vote in was the twenty sixteen election, and
• 23:17
  Speaker 7: it was just like watching my world come crashing down
• 23:20
  Speaker 7: in real time, and like all these illusions that I'd
• 23:22
  Speaker 7: had about America, like the cracks had started to show
• 23:26
  Speaker 7: in the foundation before that, but like that was kind
• 23:28
  Speaker 7: of like the final moment of like, oh, Okay, I
• 23:30
  Speaker 7: see what's going on here and there is still so
• 23:32
  Speaker 7: much work to be done. I mean I I I
• 23:36
  Speaker 7: adn't kind of glad though that I had an Obama childhood,
• 23:38
  Speaker 7: because it was a very very idyllic time to be
• 23:41
  Speaker 7: a black kid in America. Yeah, was the president, and
• 23:45
  Speaker 7: I don't know what it would like to be a
• 23:46
  Speaker 7: kid now. Also, social media wasn't as bad when I
• 23:49
  Speaker 7: was a kid, Like it wasn't as pervasive.
• 23:50
  Speaker 8: It existed, but it wasn't. It wasn't on your phone.
• 23:53
  Speaker 7: Yeah, it was always it was on the computer, and
• 23:55
  Speaker 7: you could like get you could not we could walk
• 23:57
  Speaker 7: around and not have it carry it with you all day.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird. It was on the phone back, I guess, right,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: but a little bit.
• 24:01
  Speaker 8: But like Instagram was like it wasn't You couldn't make
• 24:04
  Speaker 8: money on Instagram when I was a teenager.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: That's one of the big changes.
• 24:07
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 24:07
  Speaker 7: It was just like a place where you shared photo
• 24:09
  Speaker 7: of your friends and you got ten likes and you
• 24:11
  Speaker 7: were like really excited.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Food Like that was the big criticism. Like the big
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: criticism of Instagram initially was why are people taking photos
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: of their meals?
• 24:18
  Speaker 8: That was my dad's criticism. He's like, well, no one
• 24:20
  Speaker 8: wants to see your breakfast.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: We wish that was now. It's so innocent now.
• 24:25
  Speaker 7: But yeah, I feel even though obviously social media warped
• 24:28
  Speaker 7: some of my childhood, like I kind of got the
• 24:30
  Speaker 7: last chopper out, like I didn't have to, well because
• 24:34
  Speaker 7: like my well look at the kids now and like
• 24:38
  Speaker 7: my so, my little brother was O two and like
• 24:40
  Speaker 7: he got a he kind of didn't really escape social
• 24:43
  Speaker 7: media's child, but he sort of did. Like if you
• 24:45
  Speaker 7: were a kid who was born in two thousand and eight,
• 24:46
  Speaker 7: like you're a goner, Like you had no like the
• 24:49
  Speaker 7: iPhone was invented before you were born, like you have,
• 24:52
  Speaker 7: Like there was no window of time where you could
• 24:54
  Speaker 7: like play outside.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:57
  Speaker 8: Every generation says that about the subsequent generation. I guess.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, but I think I think we
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: are in different I think I think we have crossed
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: the rubicon, so to speak. Like I don't think it's
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: now just like hating to be like these big things
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: are co hooked, you know, and I think things are cooked,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 25:10
  Speaker 8: But I have a lot of hope.
• 25:11
  Speaker 7: I have a lot of hope, and I think one
• 25:14
  Speaker 7: that there is obviously a lot of good It's come
• 25:15
  Speaker 7: from social media, namely a lot of my career I
• 25:17
  Speaker 7: built on it. And also I just think that there's
• 25:21
  Speaker 7: a movement happening to get back to real life. I
• 25:24
  Speaker 7: think people really miss real life, and I think that
• 25:27
  Speaker 7: there's a lot of a lot of young people who
• 25:30
  Speaker 7: feel robbed of like in person, tactile, sensual experiences and
• 25:34
  Speaker 7: are seeking it out. And I think it's going to
• 25:35
  Speaker 7: become a real status symbol to not have a huge
• 25:38
  Speaker 7: digital footprint.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: How do you navigate that given just you know, a
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: lot of your career you say it's like kind of
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: due to social media, but I imagine you, like everyone
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: else are, is also looking for ways to not be
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: attached tethered to you know.
• 25:53
  Speaker 7: Honestly, I haven't been that great about it recently because
• 25:55
  Speaker 7: I think especially when I'm touring, like when I'm in
• 25:58
  Speaker 7: the airport and I'm like really tired and like run down,
• 26:01
  Speaker 7: Like I don't want to be like meditating or like
• 26:04
  Speaker 7: you know, focusing on you know, the things in front
• 26:06
  Speaker 7: of me. I want to be on my phone because
• 26:07
  Speaker 7: I want to make the time pass. And so definitely,
• 26:10
  Speaker 7: in the last couple of months, like I've been spending
• 26:12
  Speaker 7: more time on my phone than I would like, But
• 26:15
  Speaker 7: I'm finding other ways to like be on screens that
• 26:17
  Speaker 7: are not social media, Like I'm getting back into playing
• 26:19
  Speaker 7: the Sims, which, like that is a great way to
• 26:22
  Speaker 7: like be on screen and kill time, but it's still
• 26:24
  Speaker 7: a creative activity. It's like I'm building houses. I'm like
• 26:26
  Speaker 7: making little people and telling little stories. And it's like
• 26:29
  Speaker 7: that's not the most intellectual way I could pass the time,
• 26:31
  Speaker 7: but it is still stimulating my brain. And like I
• 26:34
  Speaker 7: when I am using TikTok, my brain is not it's
• 26:37
  Speaker 7: not working, like it is off, and I think like
• 26:41
  Speaker 7: watching YouTube videos is another great way to like be
• 26:43
  Speaker 7: on a screen in a way that still feels engaging
• 26:44
  Speaker 7: because it's.
• 26:45
  Speaker 8: Like I'm consuming content.
• 26:46
  Speaker 7: I have to be I have to remember what I'm
• 26:48
  Speaker 7: watching in order for the content to make sense, whereas
• 26:51
  Speaker 7: on TikTok it's like I can forget everything that I
• 26:53
  Speaker 7: see as soon as I scroll past it and it
• 26:54
  Speaker 7: doesn't impact my day, Whereas like if I'm watching a
• 26:56
  Speaker 7: ten minute YouTube video, it's like, oh, I have to
• 26:58
  Speaker 7: follow the thread of whatever this person's talking about. I
• 27:01
  Speaker 7: also really like Reddit, which like maybe that's wait, tell.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Me about that, because I feel like Reddit was done right,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: it's it is so bad what happened? Fact should be there.
• 27:11
  Speaker 7: I love it because I so I have all of
• 27:13
  Speaker 7: these interests, including the SIMS. My other big niche interests
• 27:16
  Speaker 7: are like make up perfume and like stationary.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Ok those are like things I love perfume, state wait,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: make up, perfume, stationary and what else? And the sims
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: and the sims.
• 27:26
  Speaker 7: Yes, and so I'm on all those subredits like looking
• 27:29
  Speaker 7: at and so it's me engaging with other people who
• 27:31
  Speaker 7: are passionate about my interests. Like I love being in
• 27:33
  Speaker 7: the perfume subreddit where people like I'm looking for a
• 27:35
  Speaker 7: cent that has these notes and we're all trading ideas
• 27:37
  Speaker 7: or someone being like what's your favorite of this or
• 27:38
  Speaker 7: what are the bottles you've used up? And like it's
• 27:40
  Speaker 7: again it's.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Way of I feel you can trust these people.
• 27:43
  Speaker 8: I'm not giving them anything like meaningful, but but.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, like like the recommendations and the opinions.
• 27:49
  Speaker 8: Well, that's what sampling's for, you know, people say you
• 27:51
  Speaker 8: should try this, and I get I spend five dollars
• 27:53
  Speaker 8: on a sample instead of two hundred dollars on the bottle. Okay,
• 27:55
  Speaker 8: it's there's a whole networ's a whole network of sampling.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: That's how you're doing.
• 27:58
  Speaker 7: Okay, yeah, but I I really like, I'm hopeful that
• 28:02
  Speaker 7: like the Jens McCrae subreddit will become more active, Like
• 28:05
  Speaker 7: I want my start it or no, I didn't start it,
• 28:06
  Speaker 7: but I want my fans to like get more invested
• 28:10
  Speaker 7: in there. But I don't know if my fan I
• 28:11
  Speaker 7: don't know if like my top fans are Reddit people.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: We're putting the call out. We'll just make a Reddit people.
• 28:16
  Speaker 8: Yes, please join us.
• 28:18
  Speaker 7: But yeah, yeah, I did an ama with Threddit, like
• 28:22
  Speaker 7: right when the album was coming out, and I loved that.
• 28:24
  Speaker 8: Wow, because I feel like the people. I know there
• 28:26
  Speaker 8: was a stereotype for a while. Yeah, well, I know
• 28:29
  Speaker 8: there was a stereotype for a while about Reddit that
• 28:31
  Speaker 8: it was like a certain kind of only a certain
• 28:33
  Speaker 8: kind of person use it.
• 28:34
  Speaker 7: It was like a negative stereotype. But my experience with
• 28:36
  Speaker 7: thread it is it's all very thoughtful people. Because people
• 28:39
  Speaker 7: like to leave long text posts, like it's not a
• 28:42
  Speaker 7: it's a place that it's the only place on the
• 28:44
  Speaker 7: Internet that still rewards long text posts because like obviously
• 28:47
  Speaker 7: on Twitter, you're limited by characters unless you like pay,
• 28:49
  Speaker 7: which I haven't used Twitter in almost a year at
• 28:51
  Speaker 7: this point, but on Instagram, like you can make a
• 28:54
  Speaker 7: long caption. But the point is the photos and TikTok.
• 28:56
  Speaker 7: The point is the videos and and Reddit is a
• 28:59
  Speaker 7: place where's the there is no photo and I mean
• 29:01
  Speaker 7: you can add photos to text posts. But the point
• 29:03
  Speaker 7: of it is that you're having these long conversations. And
• 29:05
  Speaker 7: I think that's why I'm now drawn to it. I'm like,
• 29:07
  Speaker 7: all I want to do is talk dot talk, okay,
• 29:09
  Speaker 7: And that's the best place to do it.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: It's the review, stationary stamps, no stationary.
• 29:16
  Speaker 8: Makeup, perfume, and the sims. Okay, all right, that's where
• 29:19
  Speaker 8: I live.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: What a songwriting come in on?
• 29:21
  Speaker 8: Let's no, I don't do I don't need Reddit for songwriting. Songwriting?
• 29:24
  Speaker 8: Is I do that on my hed?
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: How did you? Okay? Because I feel like you're how
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: can I say this, Like you're you're a very good
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: songwriter than you in my estimation for what that is worth.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: And I feel like the way you write songs is
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: almost a lost art, like you like you write songs
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: in the way like great songs used to be written,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: in a sense, like you know, like they're very they're
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: not they're not hyper specific, you know, like it's like
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of room for interpretation and there's a
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: lot of like just turns of phrases and ambiguousness and
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: that that creates a level of intrigue and and and
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: they're really good. So like, how did you become good
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: at that? How did you put that together? I get
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: how you got into the Yes, yes, I get how
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: you've become a makeup maven through Reddit, but yeah.
• 30:08
  Speaker 7: With with I always wanted to tell stories, Like I
• 30:11
  Speaker 7: just loved being read to as a child, and my
• 30:14
  Speaker 7: mom had a thing where we would go to bookstores
• 30:16
  Speaker 7: and toy stores and if I went to a toy store,
• 30:18
  Speaker 7: I could get one toy, but if I went to
• 30:19
  Speaker 7: a bookstore, I get as many books as I wanted.
• 30:21
  Speaker 7: And obviously this was a long scam to get me
• 30:24
  Speaker 7: to be a reader, and it worked very well.
• 30:27
  Speaker 8: And I just always wanted to tell stories.
• 30:28
  Speaker 7: And I always sang to myself, like my mom just
• 30:30
  Speaker 7: said when I was like very little, like as soon
• 30:32
  Speaker 7: as I was talking, I was also just singing to myself.
• 30:35
  Speaker 7: And it really was, you know, through the Alicia Keys
• 30:38
  Speaker 7: thing of like my mom trying to give me role
• 30:39
  Speaker 7: models people who look like me. I just saw her
• 30:41
  Speaker 7: and I was like, she looks I'm gonna do that
• 30:43
  Speaker 7: because I look like her, so I can do that.
• 30:45
  Speaker 7: It was like such a simple, like neurons firing moment.
• 30:48
  Speaker 8: Yeah. I just was like that, that's someone something that
• 30:51
  Speaker 8: I can do.
• 30:52
  Speaker 7: And when I told my mom I wanted to be
• 30:53
  Speaker 7: a singer, she's like, well, you have to learn how
• 30:54
  Speaker 7: to write songs because that's where all the money is.
• 30:56
  Speaker 7: Like there was no discussion of, like, there's no point
• 30:59
  Speaker 7: that I don't know great either, my parents work in
• 31:01
  Speaker 7: the music industry.
• 31:01
  Speaker 8: But she was like, you have to write your own songs.
• 31:03
  Speaker 8: And I was like all right.
• 31:04
  Speaker 7: So I started taking piano lessons and I went through
• 31:07
  Speaker 7: a couple of piano teachers, none of whom I particularly liked,
• 31:10
  Speaker 7: and it was because I didn't want to read music
• 31:12
  Speaker 7: and I didn't want to do classical music. And we
• 31:14
  Speaker 7: found this piano teacher who very dramatically was like, well,
• 31:18
  Speaker 7: you know, taking the classical music off the stand, Like
• 31:19
  Speaker 7: what do you want to do?
• 31:20
  Speaker 8: And I was like, I want to learn Beautiful by Cristina.
• 31:22
  Speaker 7: Aguilera, and she was like okay, So she taught me
• 31:24
  Speaker 7: how to pick music out by ear and taught me
• 31:27
  Speaker 7: how to read guitar charts, and then very quickly thereafter
• 31:30
  Speaker 7: was like teaching me how to write songs as well.
• 31:33
  Speaker 7: And I would, you know, bring her my small ideas
• 31:36
  Speaker 7: about songs and she would help me flesh them out
• 31:38
  Speaker 7: and eventually back to the point where I could finish
• 31:40
  Speaker 7: them by myself. And I think a big part of
• 31:42
  Speaker 7: why I got good at it was because my parents
• 31:45
  Speaker 7: instilled so much confidence in me from such a young
• 31:49
  Speaker 7: age that I genuinely believed I was writing Grammy worthy
• 31:52
  Speaker 7: material when I was like nine years old and there
• 31:55
  Speaker 7: was no like. I love the confidence that I have
• 31:57
  Speaker 7: in myself now and the you know, my opinion of
• 32:00
  Speaker 7: my songs now is the same as it was when
• 32:02
  Speaker 7: I was like ten, but the songs were not there,
• 32:04
  Speaker 7: simply were not good.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: But I know your dad though, but hold on a second,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: this is why you're dad in your mom's I don't
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: want to I don't want to discount your mom.
• 32:11
  Speaker 7: No, my parents like they were just so they told
• 32:14
  Speaker 7: I mean, they told me they're like, you're the greatest.
• 32:16
  Speaker 7: Like when I was like I'm a I'm like, look
• 32:18
  Speaker 7: at this song that I wrote it's amazing. They're like,
• 32:19
  Speaker 7: you're right, and like I watch videos back because ID
• 32:22
  Speaker 7: musical theater too, And I watched videos back of me
• 32:24
  Speaker 7: doing musical theater and of me playing my original songs
• 32:26
  Speaker 7: when I was first starting to write them, and I'm like,
• 32:28
  Speaker 7: these are fine, like for a kid. They're like fine
• 32:31
  Speaker 7: for a kid. And I'm like, how I asked my
• 32:33
  Speaker 7: parents recently, like how did you know that this was
• 32:35
  Speaker 7: going to go anywhere? Like we just did, We just were,
• 32:38
  Speaker 7: We just knew they And I'm like that's crazy, Like
• 32:41
  Speaker 7: you shouldn't.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: Have, Like I wasn't that good, like it took Like
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: do you have siblings?
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: I do?
• 32:45
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I have an older brother who's my business manager.
• 32:48
  Speaker 7: He doesn't do music, and then my little brother is
• 32:49
  Speaker 7: my keyboard player and also has his own artist project
• 32:52
  Speaker 7: and is astoundingly talented as well.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Were they as Were they equally as Lata toy?
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: Uh?
• 32:58
  Speaker 8: Yes, yes, very much.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: So.
• 33:00
  Speaker 7: I mean my little brother, he he's like he's one
• 33:03
  Speaker 7: of those people that's just good at everything.
• 33:05
  Speaker 8: He tries.
• 33:05
  Speaker 7: Like both my both my brothers played basketball. So my
• 33:08
  Speaker 7: little brother, every single one of his pursuits or most
• 33:11
  Speaker 7: of his pursuits were originated and wanted to copy his
• 33:13
  Speaker 7: older siblings. But then he's also like this amazing chef
• 33:16
  Speaker 7: because he just on his own just like loved food.
• 33:18
  Speaker 7: So he was a person that everything he touched he
• 33:20
  Speaker 7: was just great at. And keep the piano was like
• 33:23
  Speaker 7: one of in particular. He was just so exceptional at that,
• 33:25
  Speaker 7: and like he just wants to sit and play the
• 33:27
  Speaker 7: piano for hours and hours and hours, and that like
• 33:29
  Speaker 7: makes him happy. And my parents definitely encourage that because
• 33:33
  Speaker 7: they were like he had boundless energy, so like we're
• 33:36
  Speaker 7: gonna put you in basketball to burn off all that
• 33:37
  Speaker 7: physical energy, and you're gonna be in these piano lessons
• 33:40
  Speaker 7: to burn off all that mental energy and then maybe
• 33:41
  Speaker 7: you'll finally go to sleep. But yeah, they're they're incredibly supportive.
• 33:46
  Speaker 7: And I think if my older brother had wanted to
• 33:48
  Speaker 7: do something creative, they would have been really supportive of
• 33:49
  Speaker 7: that too. Like that was why my dad became a lawyer,
• 33:52
  Speaker 7: because he was like, I want to give my kids
• 33:54
  Speaker 7: full options, Like I don't want them to do anything
• 33:56
  Speaker 7: because of money, Like I want them to make all
• 33:58
  Speaker 7: their life path choices based on what they're really truly
• 34:01
  Speaker 7: passionate about and what they're good at.
• 34:02
  Speaker 8: And not just what they think is like the safe.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Bet that's great. Yeah, that's amazing. I feel like we
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: should line your dad out to like I feel like
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: your dad needs to start a service.
• 34:14
  Speaker 8: Like I don't know, all he wants to do is
• 34:15
  Speaker 8: tell people how to live their life.
• 34:17
  Speaker 7: Like his number one passion is like if I have
• 34:19
  Speaker 7: a friend over or something, he's like asking them what
• 34:22
  Speaker 7: they're doing, and it's like, Okay, so here's what you're
• 34:23
  Speaker 7: gonna do, and here's your five year plan.
• 34:24
  Speaker 8: Like he's ready to falk in.
• 34:27
  Speaker 7: That's and I hope, I do hope when he retires
• 34:29
  Speaker 7: that he gets the opportunity to just like dispense wisdom
• 34:31
  Speaker 7: to young.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: People, get them on TV. I feel I know it's
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: gonna be good. We'll be back with more from Jensen
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: McCrae after the break. So your mom was showing you
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: mixed race women specifically for you to identify with and
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: and Alicia Keys. It does seem like you like and
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: just also judging by some of some of the songs
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: like on your first album, like the sort of trilogy
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: of songs uh headlock uh, Like there was clearly a
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: I Am where you you were struggling in your identity
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: and who you were and wouldn't you know, Yeah, I
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: mean growing up.
• 35:17
  Speaker 7: I grew up in LA and I went to private
• 35:19
  Speaker 7: school my whole life, and I was surrounded by mostly
• 35:22
  Speaker 7: white people, and yeah, I did not feel like I
• 35:27
  Speaker 7: belonged at all. And it felt like just this frustrating
• 35:31
  Speaker 7: liability to be darker skinned, Like it just felt like
• 35:34
  Speaker 7: it was boxing me out of social opportunities and it
• 35:39
  Speaker 7: just like made people underestimate me.
• 35:41
  Speaker 8: And I felt like I was ugly, Like I just
• 35:42
  Speaker 8: didn't like what I looked like at all.
• 35:44
  Speaker 7: And it's crazy to think about now because like I
• 35:48
  Speaker 7: just I just no longer care like about like the
• 35:51
  Speaker 7: white beauty standard.
• 35:52
  Speaker 8: It's just totally relevant to me.
• 35:53
  Speaker 7: But when I was a teenager, like obviously, it felt
• 35:55
  Speaker 7: like the most important thing in the world, and my
• 35:57
  Speaker 7: parents were very It was in spite of my parents'
• 36:00
  Speaker 7: best efforts to ensure that we all thought like that
• 36:03
  Speaker 7: black is beautiful, like they were they were hammering that
• 36:05
  Speaker 7: home really hard.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: But the world seeped in.
• 36:07
  Speaker 7: The world is just so loud, you know, especial for
• 36:09
  Speaker 7: teenage girls. I think it was a little easier for
• 36:10
  Speaker 7: my brothers, but especially being a teenage.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Girls marked difference for yeah, well because they.
• 36:15
  Speaker 7: Were also because they were both athletes, like they were
• 36:19
  Speaker 7: the they were a form of black manhood that was
• 36:22
  Speaker 7: very comfortable for people. Like also, they're both lighter than
• 36:26
  Speaker 7: I am, Like I'm the darkest of my siblings, and
• 36:28
  Speaker 7: so I think like having like a light skin black
• 36:30
  Speaker 7: man who's tall and fit and good looking and good
• 36:32
  Speaker 7: at basketball and good at school.
• 36:33
  Speaker 8: Like they were just checking all the boxes and people
• 36:36
  Speaker 8: just love them.
• 36:37
  Speaker 7: And I was like darker skinned and like not an athlete,
• 36:40
  Speaker 7: and like the music I made was like not what
• 36:42
  Speaker 7: people would expect my music to sound like. And I
• 36:44
  Speaker 7: was just so loud and opinionated, and it was like
• 36:47
  Speaker 7: it was you know, it's not something I wasn't palatable
• 36:50
  Speaker 7: to the people that I was around, and I sort
• 36:54
  Speaker 7: of like dug my. I didn't really feel like I
• 36:56
  Speaker 7: had a way to conform, so I just dug my
• 36:58
  Speaker 7: heels in. It just became like even more antagonistic and
• 37:01
  Speaker 7: oppositional to those standards. But yeah, those writing those the
• 37:07
  Speaker 7: Headlock Trilogy was kind of me pross using in real
• 37:10
  Speaker 7: time in college, Like how hard my parents worked to
• 37:13
  Speaker 7: try to protect me from that kind of self hatred
• 37:16
  Speaker 7: and just like getting so emotional at like how much
• 37:18
  Speaker 7: they loved me and how much they just like it
• 37:20
  Speaker 7: was the putting in so much effort to try to
• 37:23
  Speaker 7: stop the world from getting in.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, did did that? Like did they have a sense
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: of how much you were struggling with that?
• 37:29
  Speaker 7: They figured it out at a certain point, because like
• 37:31
  Speaker 7: they came in my room one night and I was
• 37:33
  Speaker 7: looking at like skin whitening cream on Tumblr, and I
• 37:36
  Speaker 7: was like I'd been caught red handed. And we had
• 37:37
  Speaker 7: like this really long conversation and they were just like
• 37:41
  Speaker 7: like what do you like?
• 37:41
  Speaker 8: What do you what is this?
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: Like, what do you mean?
• 37:44
  Speaker 7: And I couldn't even really fully articulate like what I
• 37:47
  Speaker 7: was feeling or was wrong, because it was like so
• 37:49
  Speaker 7: shameful and so big. But they had, Yeah, they knew,
• 37:53
  Speaker 7: they knew that I was struggling socially, and but the
• 37:55
  Speaker 7: thing that they just kept saying to me was like,
• 37:56
  Speaker 7: when you get to college, it's going to be different,
• 37:58
  Speaker 7: Like I just just please get through high school, like
• 38:00
  Speaker 7: we know it's so bad, but I promise you when
• 38:02
  Speaker 7: you get to college it'll be different.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: And it was.
• 38:03
  Speaker 8: It was immediately different. It was immediately so much better.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know why that is the case, but it's
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: so it's night and day.
• 38:10
  Speaker 7: Well, especially in my case, like going to music school,
• 38:12
  Speaker 7: the things that it was nothing was more heavily rewarded
• 38:15
  Speaker 7: in music school than being different, like whatever made.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Oh your liabilities throughout high school. All a sudden it
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: become like like like the thing to like lean into. Yeah,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know what flips I mean.
• 38:25
  Speaker 7: I just remember like all the kids who were like
• 38:27
  Speaker 7: closeted gay kids in high school that came to music school,
• 38:30
  Speaker 7: they were out and proud and found community immediately. All
• 38:32
  Speaker 7: the kids whore ethnic minorities immediately it felt like it
• 38:35
  Speaker 7: was well a little bit safer.
• 38:37
  Speaker 8: Some people had different experiences than others.
• 38:38
  Speaker 7: I went to USC, so outside of the bubble of
• 38:40
  Speaker 7: music school, it was not always safe. But yeah, it
• 38:43
  Speaker 7: was like and then like even just like on a
• 38:45
  Speaker 7: very simple level, like how you dressed, like I was
• 38:48
  Speaker 7: like normcore in the way that I dressed in music school,
• 38:51
  Speaker 7: like I was dressing like boring, and all the kid
• 38:53
  Speaker 7: was like a competition of who could wear the most
• 38:55
  Speaker 7: eccentric clothing.
• 38:55
  Speaker 8: It was like these are things I would never dreamed
• 38:57
  Speaker 8: of when I was a teenager.
• 38:59
  Speaker 7: But all of a sudden, you get to college and
• 39:00
  Speaker 7: it's like, oh, you're supposed to be as yourself as possible.
• 39:03
  Speaker 8: That is your ticket to success.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great. It's such a great. It's
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: like the most underrated part of college is that part
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: of it, the deconditioning that happens.
• 39:12
  Speaker 8: Yeah, beautiful.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Was there an inciting incident to the skin lightning cream?
• 39:19
  Speaker 8: No, I don't think so.
• 39:19
  Speaker 7: It was just like I was just on Tumblr, which
• 39:22
  Speaker 7: is like, it's funny now because like now TikTok is
• 39:24
  Speaker 7: the thing that all the teenagers are on, and they're
• 39:26
  Speaker 7: just rehashing a lot of the same kind of bs
• 39:30
  Speaker 7: that was happening on Tumblr. And I'm sure I just
• 39:33
  Speaker 7: went down like a rabbit hole in the same way
• 39:35
  Speaker 7: that you can go down like eating disorder rabbit holes
• 39:37
  Speaker 7: or like you know, people get radicalized to be like
• 39:39
  Speaker 7: racist or whatever on other platforms, Like you just get
• 39:42
  Speaker 7: you start looking at certain images and then the algorithm
• 39:46
  Speaker 7: just feeds you more of it. And I don't think
• 39:48
  Speaker 7: I was ever serious about it, Like I don't think
• 39:49
  Speaker 7: I ever was gonna meaningfully change what I look like.
• 39:52
  Speaker 8: But I just was like I was like, I didn't
• 39:54
  Speaker 8: know this was the thing that people did.
• 39:55
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and it turns out that there were people more
• 39:57
  Speaker 7: desperate than I was who were like really trying to
• 39:59
  Speaker 7: erase who they were.
• 40:01
  Speaker 8: And it made me really sad more than anything.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so sad. There's a song on you first, some
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: white boy that I feel like dovetails nice when where
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: we're at in this conversation, would you would you mind
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: playing some little plane or some of it comfortable? M m.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: M oh. My hair smells like smoke. Something's burning. I
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: don't know what it is. I won't laugh, you dumb
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: ass chokes waite boy. I don't know you anything. I
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: am learning not to sing for you. The cage is
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: not my Zulus, white boy, you still got a great
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: barn Me sore the h.
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: And God bring me to my knee the first and
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: DEVI leading if ire WoT you ask me to be?
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: Boy?
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: Boy? Will make of me?
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Passion play almost biblical? Why girl rives, I turn invisible?
• 42:06
  Speaker 8: I don't like.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Who I am?
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: The white boy.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Trance Stay, You're a hypnotic twillow my watch, my voice
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: shop the autive?
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: How to lie?
• 42:28
  Speaker 9: Who are you?
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: What by?
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: You still got a great boy? Me sore Di and
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: God bring me to.
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: My name.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: First and down. If I her believe, if I would
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: you ask me to be boy boy will make of me.
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: You still.
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: Out of a good uh sweet? And the girl bring
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: me to my name you last?
• 43:55
  Speaker 5: If I believe, if Ian would you last me to
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: be my boy, will make of me?
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: William Ma me, William.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Ma, go me.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Gorgeous. But it's like, where did you learn? It feels
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: like you're breaking rules, Like how do you make a
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: song of that gorgeous? And then it's like and then
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: get the the gumption for the tax to be like
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: white boy. It's like it's it's it's not. No, it's not.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: I don't think people are supposed to do that. I
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: thought to do it, but how the funk do you
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: do that?
• 45:06
  Speaker 7: That's what I felt like when I wrote it, because
• 45:08
  Speaker 7: I wrote almost twenty and it was the first song
• 45:11
  Speaker 7: I ever wrote that. I felt like I was the
• 45:13
  Speaker 7: only person who could have written it, And in the
• 45:16
  Speaker 7: immediate aftermath of writing it, I was like, surely I
• 45:19
  Speaker 7: can never play this live, Like this is crazy. This
• 45:21
  Speaker 7: is not a song that's meant to see the light
• 45:23
  Speaker 7: of day. And I but I think I spent like
• 45:26
  Speaker 7: two months sitting on it, not showing it to anybody,
• 45:28
  Speaker 7: and then I came home for winter break and I
• 45:30
  Speaker 7: played it for my mom and she was like, whoa,
• 45:33
  Speaker 7: you have to share that with people? And I was
• 45:36
  Speaker 7: like yeah, yes, And then I started playing it at
• 45:39
  Speaker 7: shows and it ended up being the song that led
• 45:42
  Speaker 7: me to my team because my first manager she sent
• 45:46
  Speaker 7: me like a cold email asking me to play a show.
• 45:48
  Speaker 7: I said that I would do it, and I played
• 45:50
  Speaker 7: this song among others and she filmed it and put
• 45:54
  Speaker 7: it on her Instagram.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: Story like it just a show, just like a private
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: or was it?
• 45:57
  Speaker 8: It was like at this.
• 45:58
  Speaker 7: Little space in West Hollywood that she was renting at
• 46:01
  Speaker 7: the time, and like it was me and a couple
• 46:03
  Speaker 7: other artists, and her original ask was like can you
• 46:05
  Speaker 7: bring twenty to twenty five people? And I was like no,
• 46:08
  Speaker 7: She's like can you bring And I was like, yeah,
• 46:09
  Speaker 7: I bet I can bring three. And I thought I
• 46:11
  Speaker 7: would bring my mom and my little brother and then
• 46:13
  Speaker 7: a friend from school. Now my friends from school came
• 46:15
  Speaker 7: and my little brother had homework, so it was just
• 46:17
  Speaker 7: my mom and the other artists had brought whatever their
• 46:21
  Speaker 7: handful of people were. And after I finished, I just
• 46:23
  Speaker 7: like ran out because I was like, I didn't bring anybody.
• 46:26
  Speaker 7: I failed, I flopped and she tried to stop me.
• 46:29
  Speaker 8: She's like that was incredible, and I was like, yeah, whatever,
• 46:30
  Speaker 8: cause I didn't recognize her. I didn't know who she was.
• 46:32
  Speaker 7: I was like, I just blew her off and I
• 46:34
  Speaker 7: left and I went home thinking that I was gonna quit.
• 46:37
  Speaker 7: I was like, I ain't do this anymore, Like I
• 46:39
  Speaker 7: can't keep playing shows to no one, like it just
• 46:40
  Speaker 7: feels insane. And but she had filmed me and put
• 46:44
  Speaker 7: it on her Instagram story and within seconds of posting it, Rocky,
• 46:47
  Speaker 7: the man who ended up producing my first album, Massagarin,
• 46:50
  Speaker 7: was like, who is that?
• 46:51
  Speaker 8: What is she singing? What is going on? And she
• 46:53
  Speaker 8: was like do you want to meet her? Like we can.
• 46:55
  Speaker 7: So she ended up facilitating a meeting for us and
• 46:58
  Speaker 7: have we had our first session, and in my first
• 47:00
  Speaker 7: our first session together, I wrote my song Adam's Ribs,
• 47:03
  Speaker 7: and then we made another session right after that when
• 47:05
  Speaker 7: I wrote starting to Get to You, and it was
• 47:06
  Speaker 7: just like we just immediately clicked creatively.
• 47:08
  Speaker 8: But it was because of white Boy.
• 47:09
  Speaker 7: He was like I just had never heard anything like
• 47:12
  Speaker 7: it before, and like he's black and his wife is mixed,
• 47:15
  Speaker 7: and he was like I just knew that, Like I
• 47:17
  Speaker 7: could just see her story in her life, and like
• 47:21
  Speaker 7: it was just so many there were just so many
• 47:23
  Speaker 7: layers to it for him and then of course for me.
• 47:26
  Speaker 8: But yeah, it felt like I wasn't allowed, like writing
• 47:28
  Speaker 8: that song. It felt illegal.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well no, because it's like I don't I mean
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: maybe in the annals of songwriting history there, but it
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: just it feels very unique, you know.
• 47:38
  Speaker 7: Yeah, And I was recently watching the music video for
• 47:41
  Speaker 7: it back, and the music video is also wild, Like
• 47:44
  Speaker 7: I came up with this whole treatment of like cause
• 47:46
  Speaker 7: the kind of the impetus for the song was I
• 47:48
  Speaker 7: went to this party in college and I was introduced
• 47:51
  Speaker 7: to this white boy alongside my white friend, and the
• 47:54
  Speaker 7: boy basically completely ignored me and just talked to my friend.
• 47:57
  Speaker 7: And I left the party after that cause I was
• 47:58
  Speaker 7: like I can't. Yes, I was like, I can't be
• 48:00
  Speaker 7: here anymore. So I was like, I want to recreate
• 48:02
  Speaker 7: that scene in the video. So we did that, and
• 48:04
  Speaker 7: then we also had a scene where we had some
• 48:05
  Speaker 7: contemporary dancers and the end, one of the ending shots
• 48:10
  Speaker 7: of the video is me standing in front of all
• 48:13
  Speaker 7: of the white boys that we had cast as extras
• 48:15
  Speaker 7: at the party, and it's just me singing the end
• 48:17
  Speaker 7: of the song with them all standing behind me, stone faced,
• 48:19
  Speaker 7: and I'm like, that was my first single when I
• 48:22
  Speaker 7: was twenty.
• 48:23
  Speaker 8: Two, Like that that's intense. Like I didn't know at
• 48:27
  Speaker 8: the time. I was like, I'm just doing just following
• 48:28
  Speaker 8: my bliss. I'm just like making my heart.
• 48:30
  Speaker 7: But now five years later, like you know, I'm doing
• 48:33
  Speaker 7: a roll out for another album and putting out this
• 48:34
  Speaker 7: other music. I'm like, that was an intense way to start,
• 48:37
  Speaker 7: and I'm so glad it is. It's how I did it,
• 48:40
  Speaker 7: but it was it was crazy that that was my
• 48:42
  Speaker 7: first thing.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you knew no better because it's like.
• 48:44
  Speaker 7: Yeah, that's nothing, Like I just didn't think for even
• 48:47
  Speaker 7: a second, Like I mean, I knew that it was
• 48:49
  Speaker 7: like a I knew it showed my personality and it
• 48:51
  Speaker 7: showed my style.
• 48:53
  Speaker 8: But like I just look back now and I'm like, wow,
• 48:55
  Speaker 8: Like I came out swinging, that's awesome.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: That is incredible. I feel like there's a lot like
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: an underlining, I mean and not a lot, but that
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: is like even in Savannah, like there is some there's
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: some like antagonism going on, you know, like, and it's
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: like it is a really cool feature of your songwriting,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 49:17
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I'm not like a I wouldn't say
• 49:20
  Speaker 7: I'm not a confrontational person. I'm very capable of doing confrontation.
• 49:23
  Speaker 7: It's obviously not something I relish, I don't know that
• 49:25
  Speaker 7: anyone does, but something I'm capable of. But I feel
• 49:27
  Speaker 7: like the safest place for me to express those confrontational
• 49:32
  Speaker 7: feelings isn't a song, because in addition to the fact
• 49:35
  Speaker 7: that I'm not speaking directly to anyone, like I can
• 49:38
  Speaker 7: collect my thoughts, I can create an argument that's more
• 49:41
  Speaker 7: concise and like I can deliver. I can think exactly
• 49:45
  Speaker 7: about what I want to say, and I can say it,
• 49:46
  Speaker 7: and then that can be the last word and I
• 49:48
  Speaker 7: can feel like I've said my piece and I don't
• 49:50
  Speaker 7: need to like get a response back about it.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Alicia Keys is a love Lisha Keys,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: big fan Oflicia Keys. But like your songwriting doesn't really feel.
• 49:58
  Speaker 8: Like I diverged a lot since I was a kid.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it is different. You did write more like that,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: I would say, So, I.
• 50:05
  Speaker 7: Mean, like I was, you know, a little kid, so
• 50:08
  Speaker 7: like I wasn't writing anything like that profound, but I
• 50:10
  Speaker 7: was definitely trying to sound like her, and I was
• 50:12
  Speaker 7: everything was on piano, and I would say like as
• 50:17
  Speaker 7: I've gotten older, like I mean, Phoebe Bridges was like
• 50:20
  Speaker 7: a big, big influence on me, especially in college when
• 50:23
  Speaker 7: I first found for music, And like, my favorite band
• 50:25
  Speaker 7: is this band Muna, who also went to USC and
• 50:27
  Speaker 7: two of the members were in my program, and I
• 50:31
  Speaker 7: definitely ama, they're like a they're a trio there. It's
• 50:34
  Speaker 7: like it's basically just pop music, but it's like len yes, yes,
• 50:39
  Speaker 7: And I feel like I definitely am emulating them a lot.
• 50:42
  Speaker 7: And Sarah Burrellis was really big for me for a while.
• 50:45
  Speaker 7: John Mayer was big for me a while for a while.
• 50:47
  Speaker 7: Bonie Ver has is and always has been really big.
• 50:51
  Speaker 8: Casey Muskraves.
• 50:52
  Speaker 7: There's so many people who have kind of warmed their
• 50:54
  Speaker 7: way in, but one of the biggest things Rocky taught
• 50:56
  Speaker 7: me was like trying to sound like myself as opposed
• 50:59
  Speaker 7: to constantly trying to sound like other people.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Like any of those people, yeah, like they're like I.
• 51:03
  Speaker 7: Feel like you can hear them and the influences are there,
• 51:06
  Speaker 7: but I feel like I've really started to find the
• 51:09
  Speaker 7: McCrae like toolbox and the Jensen McCrae universe, and I
• 51:13
  Speaker 7: feel like I'm writing in there all the time.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: Is it anything you can enumerate or is it kind
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: of just more of a feel.
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: Well.
• 51:19
  Speaker 7: I think obviously, lyrics are paramount. I think one of
• 51:22
  Speaker 7: the biggest pieces of advice I give to people with
• 51:24
  Speaker 7: songwriting is that your lyrics have to sound good when
• 51:26
  Speaker 7: spoken without any melody or production, and if you don't,
• 51:28
  Speaker 7: if it doesn't sound good as a poem, you have
• 51:30
  Speaker 7: to go back and try again. I think obviously use
• 51:32
  Speaker 7: a lot of literary references, a lot of biblical references.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Where does that stuff come from?
• 51:37
  Speaker 8: Honestly, the biblical references, I don't know. Because my mom
• 51:39
  Speaker 8: is Jewish.
• 51:40
  Speaker 7: My dad converted to Judaism before I was born, and
• 51:42
  Speaker 7: like I went to Jewish school for a while, and
• 51:43
  Speaker 7: then after we left that school we kind of stopped practicing.
• 51:46
  Speaker 7: So there's like not really been a big religious presence
• 51:48
  Speaker 7: in my life. But I just find the stories in
• 51:51
  Speaker 7: the Bible to be really compelling and evocative in educational Like,
• 51:55
  Speaker 7: I think they're really valuable as stories, And then I
• 52:00
  Speaker 7: mean as far as like literary references like I just
• 52:03
  Speaker 7: I'm a huge reader, like I just love I love
• 52:05
  Speaker 7: my I love my songs to feel like either they
• 52:08
  Speaker 7: could they've been lift from books, or that they could
• 52:10
  Speaker 7: be set alongside scenes from books, and I really want.
• 52:13
  Speaker 7: I fangirl hardest when an author follows me on Instagram
• 52:16
  Speaker 7: way more than any other, like famous.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: Person, who are some of your ocean.
• 52:20
  Speaker 8: Vuang He followed me a while ago and sent me
• 52:23
  Speaker 8: a copy of his new book that was really huge.
• 52:25
  Speaker 8: Carmen Maria Machado followed me right after I read her
• 52:28
  Speaker 8: book In the dream House, which was like one of
• 52:30
  Speaker 8: the most important books I've ever read. That really I
• 52:33
  Speaker 8: was gagged about that.
• 52:34
  Speaker 7: Probably the thing that was the most emotional was when
• 52:36
  Speaker 7: I was a teenager, I read a lot of John Green,
• 52:38
  Speaker 7: the young adult author who wrote that book The Fallennar Stars,
• 52:41
  Speaker 7: and he followed me on Instagram recently, I think because
• 52:43
  Speaker 7: I mentioned him on another podcast and that was like
• 52:47
  Speaker 7: I freaked out about that, and I sent him a
• 52:49
  Speaker 7: really long I sent him a message that was so
• 52:51
  Speaker 7: long Instagram wouln't let me send it, so I had
• 52:53
  Speaker 7: to edit it down.
• 52:56
  Speaker 8: That's like the making music that authors love is probably
• 53:01
  Speaker 8: my genre, Like making music that authors want to put
• 53:03
  Speaker 8: on their playlists while they're working on their books. That's
• 53:05
  Speaker 8: my dream.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 53:07
  Speaker 7: Like part of what I've been setting out to do
• 53:08
  Speaker 7: is I want to bring together the world of like
• 53:11
  Speaker 7: the great songwriters whose songs are independent of who's singing them,
• 53:15
  Speaker 7: just work, and then the great vocalists who they could
• 53:17
  Speaker 7: sing the phone book like it would still sound great.
• 53:19
  Speaker 7: I'm like, in an ideal world, I would be able to.
• 53:22
  Speaker 7: I want to be excellent at both of them, Like
• 53:24
  Speaker 7: I really want I want my songs to stand alone
• 53:26
  Speaker 7: and for my voice to stand alone, in for both
• 53:28
  Speaker 7: those things together to be this extra powerful thing.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Do you ever do covers? Give her?
• 53:33
  Speaker 8: Sometimes? Yeah, I play cover. I do covers at most
• 53:35
  Speaker 8: of my shows I've been doing.
• 53:37
  Speaker 7: Taylor Swift is obviously another huge influence on me, and
• 53:39
  Speaker 7: I've been doing a cover of a song from her
• 53:42
  Speaker 7: most recent album at like all my shows.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: What do you hear in Taylor's music?
• 53:46
  Speaker 8: I mean, where do I even start?
• 53:48
  Speaker 7: I love her so much, Like she is so good
• 53:53
  Speaker 7: with narrative, Like she obviously started as a country artist
• 53:57
  Speaker 7: and writer, and like so much of country music is
• 53:59
  Speaker 7: just story, and like that carries through even.
• 54:03
  Speaker 8: As she's genre shape shifted.
• 54:06
  Speaker 7: She's not afraid of like vocabular which like to sometimes
• 54:10
  Speaker 7: I'll say, like sometimes I can read clunky, like it
• 54:13
  Speaker 7: doesn't always work, But I just love like that she
• 54:15
  Speaker 7: is willing to go there and like she's not trying
• 54:18
  Speaker 7: to dumb her She's never had dumb herself down for anybody.
• 54:21
  Speaker 7: I love how genre expansive she is. And there's just
• 54:25
  Speaker 7: so many like single lines that just like haunt me forever.
• 54:29
  Speaker 7: Like one of my favorites is off of Midnights on
• 54:31
  Speaker 7: what I could have shown have and she says, give
• 54:32
  Speaker 7: me back my girlhood.
• 54:33
  Speaker 8: It was mine first. Like that's like one of the best.
• 54:36
  Speaker 7: Like I am mad when I heard that. I was like,
• 54:37
  Speaker 7: I can't believe I didn't write that, Like that's like
• 54:39
  Speaker 7: one of the best. That's so good, And like there's
• 54:42
  Speaker 7: a million other ones, but like there's just I'm so
• 54:45
  Speaker 7: impressed with like Speak Now, which was her album that
• 54:47
  Speaker 7: she wrote entirely by herself.
• 54:48
  Speaker 8: When she was like nineteen years old.
• 54:51
  Speaker 7: It's just incredible, like the and the and the it's
• 54:53
  Speaker 7: the volume as well, because that's the thing that I
• 54:55
  Speaker 7: pride myself on, is my volume like I'm like, I
• 54:57
  Speaker 7: want to just keep creating, whether it's songs, whether it's
• 54:59
  Speaker 7: the other types of writing that I like to do.
• 55:01
  Speaker 7: Like I want to be a person who's just always
• 55:03
  Speaker 7: having a high volume of output, and she is that,
• 55:05
  Speaker 7: and it's just astonishing that she manages to keep doing it.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: Wow, have you the pace that you've set for yourself
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: so far you feel like you've been able to keep it.
• 55:16
  Speaker 7: I definitely am bummed that I haven't written as much
• 55:18
  Speaker 7: this year, like because of you know, partly because of
• 55:21
  Speaker 7: the album coming out and the touring, but also because
• 55:23
  Speaker 7: like obviously this year started with the fires in LA
• 55:25
  Speaker 7: and that was like really disruptive to everyone's life in
• 55:28
  Speaker 7: a million different ways, and especially I feel like as
• 55:30
  Speaker 7: a creative it was like I mean I wrote a
• 55:32
  Speaker 7: song about the fires as they were happening, but like
• 55:36
  Speaker 7: it definitely like it tanked my mental health for a while,
• 55:39
  Speaker 7: and like I didn't feel as productive and creative. And
• 55:43
  Speaker 7: then obviously, like politically, the world is also like really
• 55:45
  Speaker 7: in America specifically, is really in a lot of turmoil,
• 55:48
  Speaker 7: and like I've written about that to an extent, but
• 55:50
  Speaker 7: that also makes it hard to like tap into the
• 55:52
  Speaker 7: creative life work sometimes. And it's weird because I've never
• 55:56
  Speaker 7: been a person who's ever struggled with creative blocks, and
• 55:58
  Speaker 7: I don't even think of myself as experiencing writer's block.
• 56:01
  Speaker 7: I just think I'm not in a season of high
• 56:03
  Speaker 7: output right now, and I think that's like not that crazy,
• 56:06
  Speaker 7: Like I have made so much over so many years,
• 56:08
  Speaker 7: and it's like I just am I really trust that
• 56:10
  Speaker 7: it's going to come back. And I have written a
• 56:12
  Speaker 7: couple songs I love in the last couple of months,
• 56:14
  Speaker 7: but it's just not at the same clip.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: Are you goal oriented? Yes, yes, I want to assume.
• 56:20
  Speaker 7: But I mean I'm both goal and process oriented, Like
• 56:22
  Speaker 7: I love the journey. But there's definitely a lot of
• 56:24
  Speaker 7: stuff that I want to do.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: What are some of those?
• 56:26
  Speaker 7: I love to win a Grammy, of course, I'd love
• 56:28
  Speaker 7: to win a Grammy. I really want to publish a novel,
• 56:32
  Speaker 7: really badly. I really want to get a screenplay that
• 56:35
  Speaker 7: I've written produced.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: Have you written one?
• 56:37
  Speaker 8: I've written a lot.
• 56:39
  Speaker 7: I've written a lot of screenplays and a lot of
• 56:40
  Speaker 7: novels and none of them have gone anywhere, but one
• 56:42
  Speaker 7: day one of them will. And I also, I love
• 56:45
  Speaker 7: I love to act I found I want to. I
• 56:47
  Speaker 7: want to I want to do some acting.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: How did that escape you? I feel like you're I
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: just didn't want to do it for.
• 56:53
  Speaker 8: A really long time.
• 56:54
  Speaker 7: Like I when I was a kid, I did musical
• 56:57
  Speaker 7: theater and then when I stopped, I was like, I
• 56:59
  Speaker 7: have the only reason I did musical theater was to sing,
• 57:01
  Speaker 7: like I didn't care about the acting part. And then
• 57:03
  Speaker 7: I never thought about it at all in high school
• 57:06
  Speaker 7: or college really, And then when I started working with WMME,
• 57:11
  Speaker 7: they were like, of course, like they're, you know, a
• 57:12
  Speaker 7: huge agency, they represent everybody doing everything, and they were like, okay,
• 57:15
  Speaker 7: so acting and I was like no, and they were
• 57:17
  Speaker 7: like what do you what do you mean?
• 57:18
  Speaker 8: And I was like I don't want to do that.
• 57:19
  Speaker 8: And I'm like, well, we'll just send you some stuff.
• 57:21
  Speaker 7: Have they sent you anything, Like, well, they said, in
• 57:23
  Speaker 7: the last five years, they've sent me a couple of auditions.
• 57:26
  Speaker 7: And when I when I first started receiving them, I
• 57:28
  Speaker 7: did a bad job, like I would send them a
• 57:30
  Speaker 7: not on purpose, but.
• 57:33
  Speaker 8: You know, I was like I didn't know.
• 57:34
  Speaker 7: I didn't know what it meant to like a script,
• 57:36
  Speaker 7: Like I was just doing what I was told and
• 57:38
  Speaker 7: like I remember like trying really hard at the auditions
• 57:40
  Speaker 7: and then they wouldn't say anything to me about it.
• 57:42
  Speaker 8: Afterward, and I was like, I don't think I did
• 57:44
  Speaker 8: a good job. And then I started to get more
• 57:48
  Speaker 8: into it.
• 57:48
  Speaker 7: I started doing self tapes for other people and started
• 57:51
  Speaker 7: to really enjoy that process. And then I got an
• 57:53
  Speaker 7: audition after having done kind of a lot of self
• 57:55
  Speaker 7: tapes for other people.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: And say, self tapes for other people that you would help, yeah.
• 57:58
  Speaker 7: I would like read for them while they auditioned, And
• 58:01
  Speaker 7: I did one after doing that a lot, and it
• 58:03
  Speaker 7: was the first time my acting agent was like, hey,
• 58:05
  Speaker 7: that was good, and I was like, not me being
• 58:07
  Speaker 7: good at acting.
• 58:09
  Speaker 8: And so then now when I get tapes, I.
• 58:11
  Speaker 7: Like really enjoy doing them. It's really fun, Like I
• 58:14
  Speaker 7: lose track of time. I just lose hours, like trying
• 58:16
  Speaker 7: different things. And it's made me now want hopefully like
• 58:20
  Speaker 7: when I to get if I get one of my
• 58:21
  Speaker 7: own scripts, made like I'd love to act in a
• 58:23
  Speaker 7: movie that I write, which I never would have thought
• 58:25
  Speaker 7: I would want to do before, but now I really want.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: To hold up you met Spike Lee, I did like that.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: I feel like, did you did you ask him any
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: about anything. Did you pick like next question, did you
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: ask him about? Did you pitch a movie?
• 58:41
  Speaker 8: Did you ask Spikes?
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: Great?
• 58:42
  Speaker 7: Spike's been very supportive and why he just found my
• 58:46
  Speaker 7: music online. He just like found He literally just started
• 58:49
  Speaker 7: liking my posts on Instagram from a kid, baby, That's
• 58:53
  Speaker 7: what I thought, but I don't know, Like it wasn't
• 58:54
  Speaker 7: even one of my viral videos. He just like found
• 58:56
  Speaker 7: he just found one of my songs and was just like,
• 58:59
  Speaker 7: this is great, and I was like, thank you so much,
• 59:00
  Speaker 7: appreciate it.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: I got.
• 59:02
  Speaker 8: I get random.
• 59:04
  Speaker 7: It's always the most random people, like I got, like
• 59:06
  Speaker 7: Kristen Bell messaged me after I posted my song about
• 59:08
  Speaker 7: the fires, and like Julia Roberts posted one of my
• 59:11
  Speaker 7: songs on her Instagram. Creed like it's all these people.
• 59:13
  Speaker 7: I'm like, I don't know how you're finding this stuff,
• 59:15
  Speaker 7: but like so much love.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Spike's the coolest one.
• 59:20
  Speaker 8: He's very cool. He's very very cool.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: And you know, he's like great in his own movies too,
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. He hasn't really been in
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: one in a while, but he should get back in there.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: I agree with you.
• 59:30
  Speaker 8: I agree with you, but that's like kind of I would.
• 59:32
  Speaker 7: I love the idea of writing something and getting the
• 59:34
  Speaker 7: opportunity to act it myself, which like because when I
• 59:37
  Speaker 7: first started writing movies, people would be like, Oh, you
• 59:39
  Speaker 7: want to play this part and I was like no.
• 59:41
  Speaker 7: And then now when I'm writing things, I am often
• 59:44
  Speaker 7: writing with myself in mind.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: Do any of those things feel like I guess music
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: is probably takes?
• 59:52
  Speaker 8: Yeah, he's number one.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Number one. Does any of the other stuff feel like
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: a distraction or does it feel like it feeds? Does
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: each one feeds the other?
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 7: And it all They definitely don't feed each other. I
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 7: used to wonder if I was doing a disservice to
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 7: myself by having all these other interests. But I had
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 7: a professor my sophomore year of college who about that,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 7: because I was feeling very adrift and I was questioning
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 7: my place in the program and I felt like everyone
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 7: else with like eight slept breathed music, and I was like,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 7: how all this other.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 8: Stuff I really like?
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 7: I was like, do you think I should give up
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 7: on those things and just focus on music? And he
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 7: was like, never make yourself small, Like you need to
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 7: do everything that you're passionate about and everything that you're
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 7: good at. Everything, like, do all of it and it
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 7: will all be in service to each other. And I
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 7: was like, Okay, well I got permission from my teacher,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 7: so I can keep doing it.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 8: And now.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 7: I mean, the thing that I often say is that
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 7: like when I'm writing, Like sometimes i'll be writing, I'll
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 7: write a line and I'll be like, is this a song?
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 8: Is this a poem? Is this a line of dialogue
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 8: in the screenplay? Is this like a passage in a novel?
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 7: And Like, if I'm working on one thing and it
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 7: feels like I'm getting stuck, I just pivot to another medium.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 7: And so for me, it's kind of the way that
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 7: I've gotten out of writer's block is by having all
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 7: of these different things that I enjoy writing. Is if
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 7: anything ever starts to feel stagnant or like it's not working,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 7: I just switch to something else and immediately feels fresh.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: Who are some of your inspirations in terms of dialogue
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: writers specifically, Well, my favorite.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 8: Book of all time is The Idiot by ELLEF.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 7: Batuman, which is about this girl who's a freshman at
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 7: Harvard in nineteen ninety five. There's very little plot, It's
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 7: just her going through her freshman year, making friends, trying
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 7: to find her voice as a writer, and developing this
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 7: ill fated crush on this older boy who's not interested
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 7: in her, And I just remember feeling like reading that
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 7: dialogue felt so much more real than anything I'd ever
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 7: read before, And it was because it was teenagers who
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 7: were really, really smart, but they weren't pretentious.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 8: And I had never really read.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 7: Anything that was that good at echoing the kinds of
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 7: conversations that I had experienced and had as a teenager.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: I will ask, though, can teenagers be smart and not
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: be pretentious?
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 7: I felt like the reason why I felt a lack
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 7: of pretension was because it felt like they weren't performing
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 7: for adults. They were just performing for each other, okay,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 7: which I feel like.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Was so smart for their cohort not necessarily performatively small.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 7: They were not performally smart. And you know what the
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 7: other key difference is is that they asked a lot
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 7: of questions. It wasn't kids who pretended to know everything.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 7: It was kids who were really deeply curious about the world,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 7: and they asked really smart questions, but they didn't pretend
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 7: to know more than they than they did. And especially
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 7: the narrator, like at the end of the book. I
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 7: mean it's called The Idiot, which borrows its title from
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 7: Adostoevsky work, And at the end of the book she
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 7: basically says like, I'm dumb. I don't know anything, Like
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 7: I've spent a whole year in college and had this
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 7: whole summer break and I don't know what happened. Like
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 7: that's how the book ends. And that just felt I
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 7: read that book when I was twenty for the first time,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 7: and it just felt so real to be like, yeah,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 7: like I don't know anything. Like I'm asking all these questions.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 7: I'm going out in the world, I'm meeting all these people.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 7: I'm trying to make sense of everything, and I've been
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 7: left with yet more questions than I had when I started.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, last break and leave back with Jensen McCrae.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: What does winning a Grammy do for You're clearly like
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, take out song, take out the music career.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: You're an impressive person. Thank you, very clearly, like you
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: have a lot of interests, very adept at a lot
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: of things. What does a Grammy do for you? Why
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: is that like you're driving force? Why is it not drive?
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: But why is that one of the things, many things
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: that you want to accomplish.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 7: There's one component, which is that not that many black
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 7: women have one album of the year. Beyonce winning this
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 7: past year.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 8: It was only the fourth time it's ever happened, and
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 8: so there's a part of me that just wants to
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 8: I want to prove it.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: We're back to that.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 8: Yes, yes, that's really part of it.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 7: Is really like I didn't know that when I was
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 7: a kid, and I'm like, oh wow, like if I
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 7: do this, like it's historical in.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: A lot of ways, Beyonce, laurn Hill.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 7: Natalie Cole, and then there's another one. But I know
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 7: that Rihanna's never won it and Alicia Keys has never
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 7: won it, which is crazy. That's a component of it.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 7: There's also the part of me that's like I've always
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 7: been academic. I've always been very academically inclined, and I
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 7: like gold stars. I want the institution to give me
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 7: a gold star.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 8: Like that's just true.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 7: Like I just love when authority recognizes my and like,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 7: I know it's not that's not what gives my work meaning.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 7: I think my work has meaning because I make it
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 7: and because it's reaching people who are touched by it.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 7: That's the most important thing. But to me, it's it's
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 7: a milestone that I like achieving is getting that stamp
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 7: from like an entity that's larger than me and that
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 7: has a track record of anointing people like I like.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 7: And if I if I go my whole life without
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 7: winning any kind of awards for my music, that's fine,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 7: Like I won't feel like I failed. But it's just
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 7: something that I've always I've always liked the idea of
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 7: It's something that like makes it will make me feel
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 7: like it's just an it's another thing to have achieved,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 7: and it's another thing to feel like I've worked toward.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 7: And there's like a system in place that you can
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 7: work to increase your odds of winning it. And I'm like,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 7: let me just try, let me try to think you
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 7: not really, I don't really know what it is, but
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 7: I know that like a lot of it is just
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 7: like being involved in like the music community, and like
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 7: being involved in the Recording Academy, and like why not
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 7: for more community and why not like be more involved
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 7: in like music advocacy and music education, Like those are
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 7: all things I want to do anyway, and like just
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 7: as involved as I can in that network, I think
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 7: is something that will bear fruit regardless of whether or
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 7: not I won an award.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: So aside from wanting to win, the things that it
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: might take to win are appealing to you to achieve
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: a filled just to do, whether that's the networking or
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: the helping the musical education part helping on this.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 7: I went to Grammy camp when I was a teenager,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 7: which is like the part of the recording academies, like
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 7: philanthropic wing is like I don't know what the form
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 7: of the camp takes now, but when I went ten
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 7: years ago, it was a ten day residential camp where
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 7: you go and you have all this instruction with these
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 7: high level instructors, and then at the end of it,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 7: we did a showcase at l Ray, which is you know,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 7: I ended up playing there this year myself, which was
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 7: incredible and it totally changed my life, Like was what
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 7: cemented my dream of becoming a musician in a way
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 7: that was like so much more tangible than it had
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 7: ever been before. And all I want is to keep going.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 7: I think what I want to give is the gift
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 7: of this dream to more people. And I think that
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 7: by winning a Grammy give the gift of this dream
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 7: to other black girls. I've had so many great mentors
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 7: and so many great opportunities, and I just want to
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 7: keep I want to pay it forward more.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 8: I want to show more people that as possible.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: That's so cool.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 7: Honestly, before Grammy Camp, I didn't think I was going
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 7: to go to music school. I thought my plan was
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 7: to apply to colleges and big First of all, I
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 7: thought I was going to leave LA and my plan
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 7: was to apply to colleges in big cities and do
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 7: music on the side. Like I thought I would maybe
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 7: go to NYU or I was like looking at Emory
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 7: because it was in Atlanta. I was like, I'll go
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 7: somewhere that has a music scene and has a big city,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 7: and like I'll just study English or something and then
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 7: I'll play shows on the side. Like that was what
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 7: I thought I was going to do, because the only
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 7: music schools I knew about were like conservatories, and I
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 7: was like, I really want to get like I wanted
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 7: to sync my teeth into a great academic education because
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 7: I loved school and I didn't want to sacrifice that
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 7: to study music. And then I found out about USC
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 7: and I learned that I could get that Conservatory Education
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 7: and I could still take USC's general education classes, and
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 7: I was like, this is the perfect place.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 8: And Grammy Camp was the was what I saw. I
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 8: saw as a stepping stone.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 7: And also it was the first time I was ever
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 7: around anyone who cared about music ever, and it was awesome.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: What was I like to connect with other people like that?
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 8: It felt like it was my taste of what it
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 8: would be like to go to college. I was like, Oh,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 8: the people here like me. Everyone likes me.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 7: Like in high school people didn't like me, and I
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 7: went to music school and everyone or I went to
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 7: Grant Camp and people liked me.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: Was that like a thing, like, you know, I think
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: to some I think everyone feels a little marginalized in
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: high school, even the popular and whatever. But like, but
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: you really, like, truthfully, you think I had friends in
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: high school.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 8: But I mean people told me they didn't like me
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 8: to my face, like I knew.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 7: I knew that they didn't and it was mostly because
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 7: of all, you know, being super opinionated and talking about politics.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 7: That was like a big part of why people didn't.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 7: They thought I was like annoying and shrill and going
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 7: to mute. And also people I also sang all the time,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 7: which is annoying. Like I just sang to myself all
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 7: the time. You go to a music camp, everybody's.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 8: Singing themselves all the time, as it turns out, and
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 8: that is welcome. Yeah, I loved it. I was like
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 8: the happiest I'd ever been. I was so sad to leave.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 8: I loved it there.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: Wow, what gives you a confidence?
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 7: I mean, honestly, my family, Like, my family did such
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 7: a good job of making our house a safe space
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 7: that like, whenever I feel defeated or less than, we're insecure.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 7: It's like if I go to my parents' house, they
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 7: build me up so much, Like I'll be sad about
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 7: something and I will tell them about it, and my
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 7: dad will start laughing.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 8: Because I'll be like that, you know that's so stupid.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 8: You know that that person's opinion doesn't mean anything.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 7: Is that person signing your checks? Why do you care
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 7: about their opinion? Like he will just immediately just make
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 7: it so simple. And my parents will be like, do
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 7: you understand that you're the most.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 8: Beautiful, intelligent, funny, like you have everything going for you,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 8: like no one can tear you.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 7: Like to them, it is a no brainer. And it's
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 7: a shock that I would ever feel bad about myself ever.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 7: And it's their unwavering confidence in my superiority that allows
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 7: me to feel medium like I don't think I'll ever
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 7: see myself the way they see me, obviously, because that's
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 7: probably not healthy. But if I'm feeling bad and I'm like, oh,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 7: like I'm not where I'm supposed to be in my career,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 7: I'm feeling ugly today, like I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 7: like I'm whatever. If I can take even ten percent
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 7: of their support and their love, it just bumps me
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 7: back up to like, oh no, I'm fine, I'm gonna
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 7: be fine, and it really I attribute it mostly to them.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: That's great, that's really great. Should do we should do
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: another song?
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 8: All right, I'm gonna tune this guitar really quick.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 7: But I feel like the next song that I'm gonna
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 7: play is kind of on this topic because one of
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 7: the things that I have struggled with in my life
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 7: is forgiving myself for making mistakes and just being overly
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 7: hard on myself.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 8: And so I wrote this song about that.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: It's called let Me Be Wrong, just my guton belly flaw,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: call the cow just it's.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 4: Good every word, the cars, food, dance.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: On glass, when my shoes are Something riding in my
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: brain tells me to it anyway and dune, I feel
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: the long decay and down its God, It's okay. Let
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: me be wrong, ride out to the wheels fall, rather
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: delusional cloud out a funeral. Let me be last, hardways
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: away and I've been good too long.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 4: Let me be wrong, freeing.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: My tongue, broget me like those schools at seven scene bake,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: got glass ceilings, enterings.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 5: Fuck those girls got everything. Something twisted in my chest
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 5: says good.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 4: But not do the best when I was young, knocks.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 5: Me out and nothing really shakes me now. Let me
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 5: be wrong all Julie's farm, rather delusional.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: Lut at the funeral.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 5: Let me you lost hard ways the way I w
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 5: and I'll be good too long.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 9: Clell be wrong, Lelly be roight here here here here,
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 9: let me be right, Let me be roight ya here
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 9: here here, let me you rare.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: I love to la ribe but dousionout of funeral, hard
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: ways the way I want, and I've been good to.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 9: Let me be wrong.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Great song, thank you. I love that. I love the
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: western feel of that's it feels like there's like a
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: like a I don't know what it is, but there's
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: there's a little something in it that feels like a
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: you know, a really great country song. Thank you.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 8: I like having a little country, little country moment here
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 8: and there.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good. Thank you so much for this is incredible.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 8: This has been such a great conversation.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for for coming by, for making
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: the music.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 8: Yes, thank you so much.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: Cool. In the episode description, you'll find a link to
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: a playlist of our favorite songs from Jensen McCrae, as
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: well as her latest album I Don't Know how but
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: They found It. Be sure to check out YouTube dot
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: com slash Broken Record Podcast to see all of our
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: video interviews, and be sure to follow us on Instagram
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: at the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: by Leah Rose, with marketing health from Eric Sandler and
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday. Broken Record is
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: on your podcast app Our theme musics by Kenny Beats.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.