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STA192 'Ask Us Anything: Therapy For Runners' with the STA Panel · The STA Clinician Podcast

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  You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
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  back into soft tissue therapy.
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  Music.
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  Hey people, how are you doing? We are live. Welcome to what is episode 192 of
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  the Sports Therapy Association podcast. podcast.
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  My name is Matt Phillips, creator of OneChatLive.com.
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  And as always, this episode is being recorded on a Tuesday at eight o'clock
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  on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel and the Sports Therapy Association
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  Facebook page and in the Facebook group as well.
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  So if you are listening to the podcast recording and you like the idea of joining
• 0:45
  us live, then all you need to do is head along to one of those places at eight o'clock on a Tuesday.
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  Normally on a Tuesday, day we've got some coming up nine o'clock so
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  do keep an eye out on social media uk underscore sta
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  but that's how you can join us live and be part of
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  the live lounge and ask our guests questions face to
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  face as it was some questions emailed into me matt at
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  the sta.co.uk and or ask answer questions
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  and the live lounge put to people who have chosen to join
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  us live in this episode of ask us anything we're
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  going to start a new series there'll be about four or five of them hopefully if
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  it proves popular where we are going to focus on
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  a particular population of a sport so this episode
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  is therapy for runners which as the title suggests
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  means the panel are going to be asking questions on working with running clients
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  next month will be therapy for team sports on the first tuesday of the month
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  and then in future months we plan to have therapy for swimmers and we're also
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  going to have therapy for cyclists and if you're interested in another sport
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  which you think could could fill a whole episode then feel free to email that
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  suggestion to me matt at the sta.co.uk.
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  So that's as much as i'm going to do now i'm very keen to get the
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  panel up we've got a fantastic selection of working therapists who
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  all work with runners in one form or another if you
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  are in the live lounge and you've decided to join us live then thank
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  you very much when you do ask a question your question will come
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  up onto the screen so i can bring it there if
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  you do find that your identity is hidden it's just
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  because you haven't clicked on the facebook group security link which is basically
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  go to b.live forward slash comments hyphen issue and that should be in the in
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  the notes on the facebook group if you need it that just gives facebook permission
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  to use your logo if you bring a question up but i'll remind you in case i see
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  any facebook users come up and without their identity,
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  right then so no particular order i shall now go ahead and we will start ask
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  us anything therapy for runners with the sta panel.
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  Music.
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  You're listening to the sports therapy association podcast evidence back soft tissue therapy.
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  I've got a mass entrance of people now you can all
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  just say hi at the same time remember this the podcast and i'm going to see you waving hello
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  welcome everybody it's
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  really exciting to see you all here it's so cool we've got such a great panel
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  here people from different backgrounds i'm very excited and if you are joining
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  us live then don't forget to say hi in the comments and ask our people questions
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  i've given them permission to jump on your questions rather than what i'm saying
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  because again all of these podcasts are about giving you the information you're
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  after so feel feel free to ask.
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  And for people who are on the podcast, we'll just introduce slowly.
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  But surely people who are in the panel.
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  So just going round, if you'd like to say what your name is,
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  where you are in the country and what your experience of working with runners
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  is, then that'd be great.
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  So let's start off on my screen. I can see Shane, first of all.
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  So Shane, do this, the favour of introducing yourself, would you?
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  Yeah. So hi, I'm Shane Robinson and I started life out very early as a runner
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  back when I was 15 years old. I'm now 33.
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  So So I've run a long time and it's kind of guided my passions in life, my profession.
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  So I've ended up becoming a sports massage therapist and working with runners
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  and becoming a running coach.
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  I'm involved in park run. I've worked in a running shop. So I like to feel like
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  I've covered a lot of facets of the industry.
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  So it's a brief bit about me and my business at the minute is currently Active
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  Edge Sports Therapy. And that's what I'm trying to build up in Lincoln.
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  To hopefully help as many runners and many people as I can up in Lincoln.
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  Fantastic that was so condensed you've done this elevator pitch before very
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  professional you did forget to tell everybody and
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  very modest that you're uh what what's your what's your 10k at
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  the moment well 10k best is is around 30
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  minutes there we go i mean that's important that's what our listeners are really
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  thinking and you're probably the only person who will reveal their 10k time
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  on the panel tonight so it's good that one of us actually so that's great no
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  great thanks for joining us shane so yeah we'll make sure that all links to
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  websites for each of our panel and ways to get in contact with them will be in the show notes.
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  But yeah, that's Director of Active Age Sports Therapy, Shane Robinson in the panel.
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  Moving across, again, no particular order, but Hannah, Hannah Tabram,
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  would you be so kind to introduce yourself? Hello.
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  Hi, so I'm Hannah Tabram. I'm a sports massage therapist in Norfolk.
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  I trained to do sports massage because I started running fairly late on,
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  sort of in my kind of mid to late 30s. I'm not telling you what year it was, how old I was.
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  But I started running for my mental health and I decided I wanted to
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  do something that would help people to keep moving themselves because of the
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  benefits and then since then I have got very into canicross which is running
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  with dogs running attached to dogs so that is a sport in its own right it's
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  a bit of a niche sport and it's also a sport that has its own particular challenges I think and injury,
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  things so yeah I will be talking about that a little bit.
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  Well if the technical language tonight is absolutely too much for you then there
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  will be a glossary at the end.
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  That's really cool Hannah I'm so pleased that you're here because I think
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  runners with dogs is something that can shock therapists
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  when they do walk through the door because your mind is slightly blown and
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  it's a great example of where everything you thought about what a runner should
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  maybe be doing is totally out of the water which is what we should do
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  all the time an individual so but also I think depending where
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  you are in the world it's probably a market and an area of
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  runners is which a little bit untapped and if you do start working with
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  these people there's there's an awful lot of you on there and you're all kind of yeah there
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  are there are and there are more and more of us and definitely i've had
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  clients who said they've been to sort of therapists who haven't
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  really understood what canny cross is or what they're doing so it is
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  a useful thing to know about it's definitely it's an eye-opener so
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  that's really exciting thanks much for joining us right let's move on my
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  screen to bottom left first row penny tell
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  us about yourself uh hi i'm a
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  a sports massage therapist and a soft tissue therapist and
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  I just literally started my
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  running journey in 2018 so I'm
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  a kind of like a late runner but I got really obsessed with it
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  like I joined a club and I've run quite a lot and big
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  races and all that and then kind of like increased the distance of running up
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  to half marathon and I don't dare do a full I just I'm just there that's That's
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  the maximum amount of distance I want to cover because I have a lot of clients
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  coming in that do ultra running and they have so many injuries.
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  I just, I wouldn't want that for myself.
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  So, yeah, ideally, we want to help all runners out there. But there's so many
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  variables that we have to consider.
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  That's great. Very powerful closing statement. So true. Fantastic.
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  So, yeah, again, we'll put your links, Penny. Thank you very much at the end in the show notes.
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  So that's Penny DeMoss from Soma Sports Massage Therapy. And we'll give the
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  website links like that at the end. Thank you very much. Let's move across to Chris Kitson.
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  Hello. Yeah. So am I Chris Kitson? So my business is Rockstar Runners.
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  So I guess like I got into running a little
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  bit so I'm based up in Leeds and I actually got into running through my
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  clients it was actually they basically inspired me
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  to give it a go and they kind of moved on into triathlon and
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  then yeah since I've kind of niched back down into running a little bit more
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  and work pretty much exclusively with runners now as a sports therapist do a
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  little bit of coaching as well alongside that so they work really well together
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  and yeah currently kind kind of on the way for Manchester Marathon myself in a couple of weeks' time.
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  And yeah, moving towards another kind of ultra marathon later on in the year. That's me. Good luck.
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  Yeah, good to hear. Again, the listeners are like, oh, one of us.
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  We'll listen to this one, definitely. So he's doing a race and everything.
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  And Rockstars Runners is looking amazing, Chris. Obviously, we've known each
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  other for a long time and you've spoken at Therapy Expo.
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  You've been a guest on the show back in where we were just in double figures
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  in 19 and 22, not 19, 22, in episode 19 and episode 22.
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  Too so it's really been exciting and fun to.
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  Join you on your journey and yeah if you haven't checked out rockstar runners
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  yet then make sure you do amazing new
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  website chris is a new but the website is relatively new it's
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  been a bit of a nightmare is it chris or glad to finally have it
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  all together oh yeah absolutely it's been like a
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  lot of people as it's a it was a long time coming but we
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  finally got it over the line now it's looking wicked and and
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  as always on the sta podcast we're looking at all aspects
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  of business and website hosting came up in
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  social media again today somebody asked a question about that and having
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  a website do you need a website watch my website give but yeah
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  if you want like a an example of won't be for everybody's
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  needs but it's it's got bells and whistles and more
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  so yeah check out rockstars runners rockstarrunners.com calm
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  calm calm right fantastic and sarah sarah
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  clatworthy last but not least sarah tell us about yourself hi yeah
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  i'm a sports massage therapist also i qualified
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  11 years ago that was mainly because i started
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  running as well so there's some echoes that i
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  hear around this panel that true fun and also so
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  once i started getting injured i was really interested in
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  why and what was going on so i got into massage at level three and worked up
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  and then since then i've just been trying to add to my experience and what I
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  can offer my clients doing lots of different types of courses like I've just
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  done a very mass analysis for runners recently which was.
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  Brilliant, very helpful. Started using that a lot now with the runners that I see.
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  But also anything that would help me look after my clients at a deeper level.
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  So kinesiology taping, neurological testing, and some things I've done with
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  the sun, which is a beginner's course in sonography,
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  just because I'll be interested and a bit of a digger to want to get as much
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  information as possible out of that.
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  That so but yeah most most of my clients i see probably about 60 percent of them are runners so,
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  i'll be learning from some of these guys tonight as well amazing thank
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  you so much and what part of the country do you say you're in sarah gloucestershire gloucestershire
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  brilliant and that's another thing again just before we crack into what i know
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  is going to be so much valuable information tonight another reason for the sda
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  podcast is obviously to help networking and you get to know each other so if
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  one of our speakers is in the same neck of the woods as you then it It might
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  be a chance to kind of reach out and maybe even meet up,
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  depending on whether that's in your interest or not.
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  But it's just a case of sharing information, which is what we kind of do since COVID.
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  So do pay attention to where, well, first of all, just pay attention.
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  And second, pay attention to where these people are, because they might be just
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  down the road from you. It's incredible.
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  Sometimes speakers on Ask Us Anything realise I'm just down the road from you.
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  We've never met. So it's great. We've got a nice representation around England today.
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  North of Scotland is there. I'm going to pay for that, aren't I?
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  All right. Sorry, Stevie.
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  Sorry, Leslie. But yeah, we are covering England at least pretty well.
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  Right. OK, we're going to crack into it. Thanks, everyone who's joining us.
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  We've got a nice load of people in the live lounge.
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  Thank you very much. And let questions come through as and when they cross your mind, people.
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  But we're going to jump into the topic for tonight, therapy for runners.
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  How do we start this off? The first thing I'm really interested in is all of you guys run.
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  Run okay you're all runners okay so I remember when
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  I was quite well in my career I
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  remember more than one therapist saying to me Matt don't I know you
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  run but make sure you see other runners because it's going
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  to be seasonal you're going to suffer if you only work with runners Matt and
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  I was like but I knew light runners I only identify with runners I don't
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  understand swimmers I don't understand anyone who chases the ball forget that
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  I've got no empathy with anybody who chases after the
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  ball or even works in a team what's that all about ridiculous where
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  people can let you down and you can let others down don't want to know and i
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  think that's quite common with runners it's just you the road
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  or the terrain wherever you are and it's up to you to do what you want to do
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  unless you're doing a relay or something or unless you've got a dog but yeah
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  do you think it really we're all biased as we are runners but do you think it
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  helps being a runner if you're going to really work in that target market anybody
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  can start in any order yeah.
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  Definitely 100 i think you said it matt i think you need to understand the runner
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  runner so I think being a runner helps you do that and when I before I got into
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  therapy when I you know I had no idea I was going to go down this route and
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  I think one of you also said it earlier,
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  it frustrated me when people didn't understand that if I was telling them I
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  was running 70 miles a week and the only response I got was oh that's too much
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  I kind of didn't really resonate with me so I think it helps to understand the
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  runner but on the same basis just being a runner doesn't necessarily help because
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  runners are who we are treating so it's not helping them,
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  so i think it's finding that balance and making sure you understand who you're treating.
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  Yeah opinion that's so cool i just want
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  to resonate that for because being a runner
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  really helps but being a runner isn't enough i
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  think that's such a cool thing i just needed to repeat that that's
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  great definitely like the conversations isn't it
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  obviously if you've got someone in clinic and you can have those
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  similar conversations you can talk about you know
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  the common races that they might do and the types of sessions that they're
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  doing and and just have that kind of common terminology is
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  is super important i think and it can really help in
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  terms of a a connection with with someone which obviously we
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  know the importance of in general within getting that
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  kind of therapeutic clients there as well I think it
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  helps with things like if you're having to have a conversation and say well actually maybe
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  you do need to step it back for a week or two and then build it back up if you
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  can say I understand that's not an easy thing to do and I wouldn't ask you to
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  do it as a runner I wouldn't ask you to do that I'm telling you this because
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  it's for the best I think people sometimes think you know running is really
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  important to them and they They don't necessarily understand that you understand
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  that, if that makes sense.
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  They want, you can empathise with them and say, I know it's not an easy thing
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  to do, but in the long term, it will do you good. And that is why I'm asking
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  you to do it, not just for the sake of it.
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  Yeah, I always say that runners are a different breed. We are a different breed
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  and we need someone to understand us.
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  Yeah. What sets running apart?
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  Is it just our bias or is there something different about the activity of running?
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  It's just because we're great.
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  Which is brilliant i was going to say people are idiots but i
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  think there's a
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  whole bit to this out yeah yeah i saw a really
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  great thing on social media that somebody posted like saying
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  when you tell people you can do this activity if
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  it's not above a three out of ten on the pain score don't say that to runners
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  because they'll underscore themselves give them something it was like tell them
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  it can be mild tolerable pain that doesn't change your gait don't give them
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  a number because i'll be like of course it's a three it's like your legs hanging
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  off it's not a three you know and i think there's something in that yeah i think
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  i think with runners and the uniqueness of us is.
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  I mean, it's a whole body sport. If you go for a one-hour run,
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  the loading of that is quite high.
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  And even though it's different, it's borderline more than deadlifting 200K.
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  So I think that's also why a lot of us get injured.
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  So I think runners experience a lot of injuries, hence why we're all in business.
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  And so you learn a lot. And coming full circle back to being a runner, it helps.
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  You know if you've had a shoulder injury it helps when you treat a shoulder
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  injury if you've had a knee injury it's a running knee injury and you're a runner
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  i think it resonates all around and yeah the longer you spend running the more
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  injuries you'll pick up and i think that's just part and parcel i think that's
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  what kind of makes us unique because we're not getting,
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  slide tackled or you know we're not jumping into people and well it's not meant
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  to be non-contact it's all self-inflicted yeah and he crosses a bit different i think.
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  Yeah so i think like
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  the uniqueness of it and then a lot of sports even team sport
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  running still forms the basis of them but i
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  might just be biased so i'm interested then because i'm keen for this if there
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  if there are therapists out there who realize there's a lot of runners around
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  them that there's running clubs and there's like local maybe halves park runs
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  runs marathons thinking wow there's people that can really help and i really want to.
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  Do you think that what do you think
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  would help them get these runners in should
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  they be maybe do they need to have a certain level of
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  running themselves or do they have to start going down to local
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  events or how if they haven't already got these runners coming to
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  them what are some tips to try and get these runners coming through their door and start
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  coaching then you can get them injured yourself bend them
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  then bend them and as a
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  massage therapist i started out going to local or
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  races that were organized by the club
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  i'm affiliated with so you
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  were visible for a start and people just would
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  you know you'd get around word of mouth as
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  well and so the the club
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  races is a good place to start I think
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  thinking about online as well like on my website I have
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  a blog which I haven't updated for ages but it's there and there
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  are a couple of bits about you know should I have a massage after I've done
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  a marathon will it help this you know what's a pre and post race massage about
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  and every year and around this time of year when I look at the clicks on my
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  website people start to click on those articles again because the marathon season
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  and that kind of thing just helps it helps to pull traffic towards your website
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  if you've got that sort of stuff on there.
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  Yeah you're involved in one way or another don't
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  you i think with runners because running is such
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  a social thing i'm not a social runner
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  at all you know the idea of saying to somebody trying
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  to go out for a run it's just for me it makes me feel a
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  bit sick thinking about it for me running is being by myself with the
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  elements being on the elements lovely me against the rain the
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  sun the wind love it but the idea of expecting to
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  talk to someone next to me whilst i'm having this out of of body experience
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  it's just not for me but that in my career has
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  caused problems because I think a lot of runners do it for the
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  social reasons and the mixing and they're more likely to go and
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  see someone who is a friend of a friend whose face they
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  know I think they're quite is that have you
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  had that experience or do you think that is the case with runners in particular yeah yeah
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  I think word of
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  mouth definitely helps but again going back to runners being
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  a unique breed and and actually us being
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  runners i think we as a.
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  Runner myself like the therapists i've gotten with the past so that the ones
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  that actually have also been able to be social with you know as
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  chris mentioned talk about my races people who you
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  share interest with if you as a therapist shares
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  interest with these people they're going to
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  like you they're going to recommend their friends to you
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  because their friends by definition will share the same values as them
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  and then they'll they'll come and follow us so i think it's probably a very
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  organic thing i think like yeah going to events and obviously handing out flyers
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  like that's the environment you want to work in anyway so i think that naturally
• 19:44
  builds and actually helps just to play devil's advocate a little bit.
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  I'm quite honest with what i think of sports massage
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  as a sports massage therapist and the narrative
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  that's around it and that might lose me business
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  at times so it's finding the right balance with
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  all of this stuff and think and yeah word of
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  mouth is probably the best if you're able to get
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  your your values out I guess in business
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  and in as a therapist just my opinion
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  I think there's a lot of like obviously a lot of
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  runners their their big fear seems to be anyways obviously just
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  going to a therapist and instantly being told that they can't run
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  anymore so and obviously having that
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  and having people have that experience with you
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  and like that like that gets talked on quite early on
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  in my sessions generally with people i've just met them
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  it's just like you know i i hear a lot of people
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  and and this and like obviously the last thing we want is to
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  stop you running so let's have a you know a good solid assessment so
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  that we can really make some some informed decisions on
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  that but i i'm always kind of like i'm kind of the guy that like if i can keep
• 20:50
  you running like i will keep you running and straight away they just like that
• 20:54
  that guy drops and then they're like right okay let's do this together and we
• 20:58
  go from there very cool very good I'd say Martin if you're a runner,
• 21:04
  there's a kind of like a given empathy.
• 21:06
  Formed in the session as soon as you come you have a runner come in your clinic
• 21:10
  they know you're a runner,
• 21:12
  that it kind of like creates that empathy straight away you don't even have
• 21:15
  to work too hard for it yeah do you think connected with that i'm thinking i've seen with other,
• 21:21
  maybe less experienced therapists that they're worried
• 21:24
  that because they're not as fast as the
• 21:27
  other runners who they want to treat they're a bit worried about going down
• 21:30
  to the local park run because they're thinking who's going to ask you
• 21:33
  know who's going to come and see me if they know that i'm doing like a 35 45
• 21:36
  a 40 minute you know 5k or something so is
• 21:40
  that something you've either experienced yourself or still experienced a
• 21:43
  little bit and if so have you got any tips for helping people get over that i
• 21:46
  mean i'm quite a mediocre runner i will quite cheerfully
• 21:49
  say that i am happily mediocre i wish i
• 21:52
  could say i was mediocre still that's great but it doesn't
• 21:55
  seem to put people off i think that you know people
• 21:58
  just like the fact that you are a runner and you understand how
• 22:01
  important it is to them were you nervous at first
• 22:04
  or i mean you belong to your main activity is
• 22:07
  kind of cross isn't it yeah yeah I mean I think it's
• 22:10
  just nerve-wracking just sort of going to a new club and meeting new people
• 22:13
  but I was always I've always been quite open
• 22:16
  that you know the reason that I came into this job was because of
• 22:19
  my running background and I'm not the fastest and a lot of
• 22:22
  my social media if I put something on about my
• 22:24
  running it's like no I'm not very fast but I really love it and I want you.
• 22:27
  To carry on loving it as well so come and see me and you know
• 22:30
  we'll try and sort this out and I tend to go on that not on
• 22:33
  I'll make you the fastest person around because i can't massage
• 22:37
  you into being any faster anyway but very much
• 22:39
  you know i'll try and keep you going as much as we can i think
• 22:43
  that's that's brilliant because that shows like the passion and but
• 22:46
  when i started out i was actually concerned of the opposite that i suppose locally
• 22:50
  i'm you know one of the quicker runners and i was known for that and i didn't
• 22:54
  want to almost become elitist with it and people not think they can see me because
• 23:00
  they're not and but actually i mean i I learned this when I worked in running retail is,
• 23:06
  you know, before I got into any sort of profession with running,
• 23:09
  I just assumed most people are like me.
• 23:11
  And then I started working in a running shop and I realized,
• 23:13
  no, I'm actually the minority.
• 23:15
  I think you go down to a park run and they are the busiest from a lot of them
• 23:20
  from 25 minutes through to 40, 50 minutes.
• 23:22
  So I think actually if you're, you don't, I think if you're not fast,
• 23:27
  you probably actually relate with most most runners and then also people like me.
• 23:34
  We get injured less typically because our training, we've trained smart from
• 23:38
  a young age. Well, hopefully we have anyway.
• 23:41
  And actually, the more training you do and the more balanced your training is
• 23:45
  and your training intensity distribution, the less you need treatments.
• 23:48
  I think then you go into, I just need a massage just because I like them and
• 23:52
  they make me feel better.
• 23:53
  But I think, yeah, if you're a passionate therapist and a passionate runner
• 24:00
  as well, it doesn't matter what level you are.
• 24:03
  You're going to resonate with everybody else who's passionate and i
• 24:05
  think that's the state of you and they
• 24:08
  they know it's within your best interest as a
• 24:11
  therapist to get them better is to
• 24:14
  ironically not get them through your door and as
• 24:17
  a result they'll probably bring you more business i think as
• 24:20
  well i think like i was
• 24:23
  thinking back to sort of like the start of it i guess when i got into it
• 24:26
  like when i wasn't into running or triathlon
• 24:28
  or anything at that point and actually the draw for for
• 24:31
  me it was like i was just showing genuine interest and i
• 24:34
  was just like really asking them questions i was just sat there fascinated
• 24:37
  by it all and i was just like this is amazing that you can do this and you know
• 24:42
  and like that they they love that obviously and just kind of like having that
• 24:46
  you know someone going like you know i think you're ace like i think you're
• 24:49
  amazing i can't believe you can do this like no one doesn't like to hear that do they really so.
• 24:55
  That's on the other side of you if you're not you know into the sport yourself
• 24:58
  i think it's not to to say, okay, you know, you shouldn't be working with runners
• 25:02
  or anything because actually, you know, it's just, again, it's that same as Aiton, isn't it?
• 25:06
  Just showing that genuine interest
• 25:08
  in someone, asking questions and just learning about them, really.
• 25:13
  Brilliant do you think chris sorry i'm gonna ask you a question now
• 25:15
  do you think that feeds back into like understanding runners
• 25:19
  and comes back to actually if you're not a runner does that
• 25:22
  mean it doesn't mean you can't like treat runners yeah
• 25:26
  exactly this is it because if you like say if you're not
• 25:28
  a runner even so if you if you're just showing that.
• 25:31
  Genuine interest and like you you know they they perceive that
• 25:34
  okay this person really wants to hear about this and they want.
• 25:37
  To learn and you can show them you know and ask them
• 25:40
  like what resources have you got for me you know know how can you
• 25:43
  help me better understand what you're doing like that
• 25:45
  in itself like that's huge isn't it like i've treated
• 25:48
  people yeah different sports and i
• 25:51
  don't understand the sports i have to actively ask and say
• 25:54
  i'm really sorry but i don't know much about this like could you you
• 25:57
  know yeah cool isn't it
• 26:01
  like again people you showing that genuine interest and
• 26:04
  naturally like you know this is going over and above and i'm
• 26:07
  going to do this job well let's work and do it together absolutely
• 26:10
  yeah great tips great
• 26:13
  stuff coming out so so we've covered the fact that
• 26:16
  it does help if you're a runner but maybe more importantly you don't
• 26:19
  have to be fantastically fast runner don't be embarrassed about
• 26:22
  your time it's more a case of just showing up and showing people that you
• 26:25
  care that you want to help if anything even if you
• 26:28
  are you know slower and you're still there that shows
• 26:30
  a certain kind of part of your character show yeah
• 26:33
  i'm slow so what it's not all about that it's about me being here i
• 26:36
  really want to help you guys it's all part of a team so it's great and
• 26:39
  i love the fact that it's really hopefully it's
• 26:42
  inspiring to listeners that shane at the opposite where it's like oh i'm gonna
• 26:46
  be too fast people can think i'm a leak people can't yet so even somebody who's
• 26:49
  like doing that sort of those sort of speeds is still going to have imposter
• 26:52
  syndrome or some kind of like oh i shouldn't be here no one's going to want
• 26:55
  to know me sort of thing so it's great it works for both ends so yeah interesting
• 26:58
  let's move on maybe to Two, common injuries.
• 27:02
  Is there such a thing as the most common injuries in running in your experience?
• 27:08
  Or do you get to see all sorts of different things in clinic?
• 27:11
  I mean, I did a straw poll. This is a canicross straw poll of my club before
• 27:16
  I came on tonight. And it was all about ankles.
• 27:18
  They're just ankles being sprained left, right and centre.
• 27:22
  And I think that's just, yeah, you're running at speed over terrain and it's going to happen.
• 27:28
  Be really interested if that's really common for just trail running generally,
• 27:32
  because I tend to sort of focus. A lot of my running clients are canicrossers.
• 27:36
  I suspect for trail running, it's probably similar, but
• 27:39
  it's not something that i would want to say
• 27:42
  with any certainty that's really interesting that's going
• 27:44
  to open up a little chat now about right there's running and
• 27:48
  then there's trail running there's canna cross there's different
• 27:51
  distances you know there's track running there's all
• 27:54
  sorts of different environments which you need to know if you're working with your
• 27:57
  patient so let's let's let's do if you
• 27:59
  don't mind i'll flip it on his head and do canna cross
• 28:02
  after trail running because i think that's basically trail running
• 28:05
  with a with a dog putting you along yeah let's go
• 28:10
  trail running first of all who out of you guys who particularly works
• 28:13
  with trail runners or done trail running yourself and if so what sort of injuries
• 28:16
  do you think are more prevalent yeah i've seen quite
• 28:19
  a few trail runners and an orienteer orienteer is
• 28:23
  actually all right so apart from the injuries where they're
• 28:25
  running into trees i think it
• 28:29
  is it is mostly ankles knees i
• 28:32
  also don't know whether with trail runners is
• 28:35
  a bit bit more of a culture of just running and
• 28:38
  using your running as trainings and whether some of them are slightly
• 28:41
  less robust because they won't do as much
• 28:44
  strength work or any stuff outside of it again if
• 28:47
  trail running is associated with ultra running there's a there's a big component
• 28:51
  on a lot of people like going quite slow relatively so they might not do as
• 28:55
  much speed work either so i think that feeds into it but actually i i think
• 29:00
  from just off the top of my head i've not quite I've done extensive research, but I think ankles.
• 29:05
  Shin pain, usually.
• 29:08
  Obviously, the loading mechanics are completely different when you're on a trail.
• 29:11
  One, I think that's a good thing, and I'd recommend everybody does some trail running.
• 29:16
  But yeah, I think because you can't control as much either.
• 29:21
  And from year to year, it can be different. We've had so much rain this year.
• 29:25
  That's, by definition, going to mean that this winter will be different loading
• 29:29
  patterns to last winter.
• 29:31
  So as a runner, you can't always just think, well, I did that last year. This is fine.
• 29:37
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  in agreement then that most of the trail runners and our interiors and that
• 30:45
  who we see is it's more ankles than the knees then is that safe to say and is
• 30:50
  that because of terrain then is that because of the fact that you're having
• 30:53
  to either invert and all that more i think yeah so.
• 30:59
  Yeah or maybe as well part of it again people tend
• 31:02
  to like it's almost like a like it was almost a rite of passage that people
• 31:07
  finish on the road and then go into trails was it because everybody's been conditioned
• 31:11
  with impacts on hard surfaces where you get energy and then you're going uneven
• 31:16
  surfaces with no energy return so yeah it might be something to do with that as well perhaps.
• 31:22
  And i think sometimes people don't realize how different it is
• 31:24
  like i had someone come to see me the other day who's training to do a trail
• 31:27
  half marathon i was like well where are you doing your training he's like mostly
• 31:30
  i'm running on the road i was like you need to get off the road you need to train
• 31:33
  on the surface you're going to be running on especially because a lot of
• 31:35
  it's on the beach i was like dude you need to get onto the under some
• 31:38
  sand you can't train on the road and then run on a beach you know
• 31:41
  your legs will fall off and i think that sometimes people don't
• 31:44
  realize how much of a difference that is going to make until something.
• 31:48
  Starts to complain that's really cool so
• 31:51
  yeah specificity getting somebody to especially if they're going in
• 31:54
  for a race or something getting training on what they're going to be
• 31:56
  training the same kind of it's undulating you need to be doing more heels and stuff
• 31:59
  if it's flat then you know you can probably stay off the heels for the
• 32:02
  moment unless it's early on so in that case i'm going to draw upon
• 32:05
  your expertise now to think one what could
• 32:08
  trail runners be doing to reduce the risk
• 32:11
  of injury which is tricky and then afterwards we'll go
• 32:14
  what are some of your go-tos for somebody is coming in with ankle
• 32:17
  related pain in order to rehab them properly and fully
• 32:20
  to be able to go out and do what they're going so let's let's start with the reducing
• 32:23
  the risk of injury for trail runners is there things they should be doing more than a
• 32:26
  flat road runner sort of thing i i
• 32:29
  think it's on it sounds counterintuitive but
• 32:32
  i think going back into actually what an elite athlete might do running
• 32:36
  drills movement drills low level plyometric stuff obviously not over emphasizing
• 32:41
  on it if they're not needing to build really elastic tendons etc because of
• 32:47
  of the loading on there but But I think not many runners do anything else other than run.
• 32:53
  So any more ankle work I think is great.
• 32:56
  I love prescribing stuff that people can do around the house,
• 33:01
  like tiptoe walking and duck walks and stuff like that, just to get the ankles moving more.
• 33:06
  And also, I suppose this underpins all injuries, but actually controlling the
• 33:11
  training load a little bit.
• 33:12
  If they got injured because of everything on trails, well, actually get back
• 33:16
  and do a bit more on the road again. If you're doing everything on the road,
• 33:19
  actually, you need to do some trail running, this specificity you mentioned.
• 33:24
  So I think they're the two things I usually work on, looking at actually what
• 33:29
  is their running distribution in terms of the surfaces, and then just throwing
• 33:33
  in some easy drill work that you might see a track athlete do.
• 33:38
  Go into a bit more detail. You mentioned a couple of exercises then and just
• 33:41
  different ways of walking in that, you know, to strengthen those ankles.
• 33:44
  What were some of your people be sitting there now with their pens going?
• 33:48
  Walking on your tiptoes. It's lovely. Yeah, it really burns your calves.
• 33:53
  I call them duck walks, but walking on your heels. So, you know,
• 33:56
  basically going into full dorsiflexion really makes your shins.
• 34:00
  And then from that, I typically progress into things like pogo jumps,
• 34:04
  which are basically just sort of springing up, using your feet,
• 34:09
  keeping nice straight legs.
• 34:10
  I'm a big, big fan of those three. And me personally, not saying there's a way
• 34:16
  you should do anything, but I think the attention span of us runners isn't great.
• 34:21
  As soon as you've told them they can do some running, that's it.
• 34:24
  They're off and prepared.
• 34:25
  Try to keep more than three things.
• 34:29
  Brilliant. try and improve adherence and again those
• 34:32
  are specific because they're a bit more fun they're a bit more easy i think
• 34:37
  to integrate and finding a step and spending 10 minutes doing calf raises but
• 34:41
  that's just my opinion again that's really cool skipping skipping i love skipping
• 34:46
  right and hops yeah i feel like i need to take notes i spray my ankle in january.
• 34:55
  That's a really important point actually and i've seen
• 34:57
  chris kind of of chris if i mean all of you are
• 35:00
  amazing i just chris has got some great graphics out there
• 35:03
  but chris i've seen you hopping on quite a lot about
• 35:06
  how like don't give your under too many exercises and things
• 35:09
  because it's just exactly what shane said here you know we have to remember
• 35:12
  that our runners just want to get out so just getting to do three exercises
• 35:16
  will be tricky enough so is there any go-to favorites for you chris if you're
• 35:20
  thinking like three exercises getting to be a little bit more plyometric a little
• 35:23
  bit more yeah i guess i mean obviously off the back watch And just thinking,
• 35:27
  I guess, a bit trail as well.
• 35:30
  A little bit in terms of like multi-directional work as well so
• 35:33
  I think pogos not just thinking right okay you said you
• 35:36
  were playing all the time as well thinking right okay can I give like some
• 35:38
  lateral pogos and start challenging that a little bit more playing around
• 35:42
  with like different depths as well so thinking about right okay not just
• 35:45
  like shallow pogos but can I get a little bit more height in here can
• 35:48
  we look at stuff like later on again but things like
• 35:51
  depth jumps and you know like some of those bigger impacts like
• 35:54
  if you think in terms of like trails and ultras and stuff we
• 35:57
  have to think right okay you've got the running sections but then you've
• 36:00
  also got things where you might be going over styles where you're having
• 36:02
  to actually do some pretty big bigger drops off the top of the walls
• 36:05
  and things like that again that comes with obviously the
• 36:08
  understanding of the sport and and thinking about that
• 36:11
  and actually what are they going to encounter and therefore what forces
• 36:14
  do we have to deal with that sort of stuff can be really important i guess again
• 36:18
  depending on where they're at within within the training if for instance someone's
• 36:23
  a little little bit more new to trails or they're thinking about going from
• 36:27
  kind of road running through to trail classically people might go say i've done
• 36:32
  a marathon so i want to do an ultra marathon.
• 36:34
  Very much than trail which is quite classic people
• 36:39
  walk in because the runners like
• 36:42
  seem to hate walking and it's such a good way
• 36:45
  of training so i'm literally just getting
• 36:48
  on getting some and trail shoes on and getting used to being on that
• 36:51
  terrain walking where you've just got lower force versions of what you're going
• 36:54
  to be doing essentially get going with that get some good uphill and downhill
• 36:58
  running drills in basically with walking and making them maybe a little bit
• 37:04
  more walk running nature and and again just kind of like reintroducing those forces basically a.
• 37:14
  And I'm sure Shane would have come to that eventually, but you just rather inventing new exercises.
• 37:18
  It's just a progression from doing what Shane recommended is the first thing
• 37:21
  and then adding multi-direction to it.
• 37:23
  Yes. Add in those transverse things and things you can do with any exercise
• 37:26
  kind of progression to prepare for that.
• 37:28
  Really cool. Penny, Sarah, what you got? Yeah, it also depends what their injury
• 37:36
  is at and what they can manage. So what run they are on.
• 37:40
  So I would say previous to the stuff that Shane was talking about,
• 37:44
  out and Chris as well you would
• 37:47
  probably look at something more like
• 37:50
  a single look star works and curtsies
• 37:54
  something that can be done on a static level but still
• 37:57
  involves rotation and flexion etc
• 38:00
  of the ankle just to just to challenge it
• 38:03
  at that level before you start adding the dynamics to
• 38:06
  it so I would I would just check where they're
• 38:09
  at with or measure with their injury
• 38:12
  first and then go from there and forward to
• 38:15
  the levels that chris and and shane
• 38:18
  talked about brilliant so rehab essentially
• 38:21
  often comes regressing back from those exercises we're
• 38:24
  getting healthy runners to do and then building up to being able
• 38:27
  to do those things again so we wouldn't get somebody who's just had a car straight
• 38:30
  straight away doing po going around the lounge but we need
• 38:33
  to break that down and give them something less so it's amazing how many people
• 38:36
  say say they can run as soon as you get them to try and balance on one leg i'm
• 38:41
  terrible at this i'm really bad at this it's like yeah but you you know you
• 38:45
  run 60 miles a week how can you be bad at balancing on one leg it doesn't make
• 38:49
  sense it's like they've they've hopped too many stones basically.
• 38:53
  Cool. Like it. Rehab could be fun as well. You can do a lot of salsa dancing.
• 38:57
  There's a lot of lateral movement in salsa dancing. I like it.
• 39:00
  Back and forth, side and side. Yeah, that's my rehab.
• 39:04
  You said that everyone on the screen is dying. It's kind of like a little jubilee
• 39:08
  of their seats, looking around.
• 39:10
  Is that an excuse to do some dancing or some CBD courses? Yeah. Brilliant.
• 39:16
  That's good. Really great stuff there, people. I love it. Some really great advice.
• 39:20
  And then also, I think, and we've already kind of touched
• 39:22
  upon it talking about that ladder which i think sarah
• 39:25
  you mentioned i love the idea of a ladder often we do forget
• 39:29
  to take them far enough
• 39:32
  up that ladder before letting them go back to running again or let
• 39:35
  them go back to the speeds of the inclines of the terrains we forget
• 39:38
  to get to do pretty difficult nasty plyometric.
• 39:42
  Exercises as that end stage rehab i
• 39:45
  think that's where a lot of therapists fall back and that's why their
• 39:48
  runner goes out and suddenly they're back in your clinic again which isn't
• 39:51
  good for business it was in the 90s was a perfect model but nowadays
• 39:54
  it just gives you a bad reputation they'll go and see someone else because there's
• 39:57
  so many therapists out there now who can offer them something
• 40:00
  else so great stuff okay so let's add
• 40:03
  all of that to a dog pound bringing
• 40:07
  you along what could go wrong with that
• 40:10
  that was enough the multi-terrain and the
• 40:13
  need for transverse movements and we have some time unpredictable
• 40:16
  animal as well would it
• 40:19
  help if i just sort of explain a bit about what canny cross that'd be great we'd
• 40:22
  love to yeah so it's canine cross country
• 40:25
  is essentially what it stands for and it is trail running
• 40:28
  with your dog if i really quickly share my try to
• 40:30
  share my screen again and then i will show you
• 40:35
  this picture of what
• 40:38
  i'm talking about so for those on the podcast this is me canny crossing with
• 40:42
  my dog can i can you see that we can see that cool so basically i've got a belt
• 40:48
  that goes around my hips which is attached to a bungee lead which is attached
• 40:51
  to my dog's harness and the harness is designed for him to be able to pull into
• 40:55
  and this was about halfway through a 5k race and the first one that we did after
• 41:00
  i've been injured so we were both a bit unfit but we were doing our best but
• 41:04
  that kind of shows how hard i hope.
• 41:07
  He's really pulling so let's stop sharing and come back so what you would use for the candy cross,
• 41:13
  is you the runner wears a belt and this is mine and what you have is a big broad
• 41:18
  strap that sits around the back of the hips that's sort of suspended from a
• 41:22
  little skinny waist strap there should be no pressure on the waist strap all
• 41:25
  the pulling comes through the hips and then you've got two leg straps underneath
• 41:28
  which stop it from riding up so it's a little bit like a harness and you kind of climb into it,
• 41:33
  that's attached to a bungee lead, to excuse the rude words on my bungee lead,
• 41:39
  which insulates you a bit from the dog jerking around and then that's attached onto the harness.
• 41:44
  So in addition to all the things that come along with trail running,
• 41:47
  the trip hazards, the difficult terrain, you then have the addition of a dog
• 41:52
  who's pulling you along.
• 41:53
  And how hard they pull will vary from dog to dog. Like my dog is quite a strong puller.
• 41:57
  Some dogs are just quite happy to try along with you and it's quite civilized and nice,
• 42:01
  but mine pulls is really hard and so you're
• 42:04
  going to be running a lot quicker than you're used to quite soon
• 42:08
  in the process as well because your dog will get fit a lot
• 42:11
  quicker than you will and so if I look at
• 42:14
  some stats off my watch are not very scientific but you know it's the best I've
• 42:18
  got my stride length increases from like about a meter to a meter 29 when I'm
• 42:23
  candy crossing between that and an easy run my cadence goes up a lot I the vertical
• 42:28
  oscillation I don't know how how my watch knows this, but apparently that goes up a lot.
• 42:32
  I'm spending less time on the ground and my pace goes from,
• 42:37
  I don't know if I want to share this, it's embarrassing, but my easy run pace
• 42:40
  is about 844 per kilometre and my canny cross pace on this one was 510 per kilometre
• 42:46
  and that was quite a technical trail. So we were going quite slowly.
• 42:49
  I mean, he's taken six minutes off my 5k time.
• 42:52
  So what you tend to look at,
• 42:55
  what you would tend to be thinking if someone comes
• 42:58
  and says that's my canny crosser you want to think about
• 43:01
  is their belt fitted properly are they using the right
• 43:04
  equipment people can say i'm running with my dog and they
• 43:07
  might have something that goes around their waist and then obviously you're
• 43:09
  putting your back at risk so are they using the correct equipment are they sure
• 43:13
  it's sitting in the right place how hard does their dog pull is their dog quite
• 43:17
  steady or are they prone to suddenly vanishing off sideways after squirrels
• 43:21
  because obviously suddenly you're running along in a straight line although
• 43:24
  you're going sideways place. Okay, that's fine.
• 43:27
  And you need to think about the biomechanics. You would expect to see ankle
• 43:31
  injuries, hamstrings, glutes, that kind of thing.
• 43:34
  You need to be thinking about balance and proprioception because you're not
• 43:38
  necessarily going to land where you think you're going to land.
• 43:41
  Because as you're in the air, the dog's going to pull you forward.
• 43:44
  And so people need to kind of get their head around that. And you need to get used to that.
• 43:49
  Your form is possibly going to change because you're being pulled forward from the hips.
• 43:52
  So you need to be thinking about that. and you need to be looking at things
• 43:56
  like core strength and stability and have you got enough of those two things
• 43:59
  to balance against the fraction the dog's giving you.
• 44:05
  Actually wonder whether trail runners as part of their cross training to prepare
• 44:09
  them for trail running should go out with the dog and imagine then taking that
• 44:12
  dog off and just having that,
• 44:15
  reaction time that's incredible so yes
• 44:18
  penny you're going to say were you going to jump in there i wanted to ask
• 44:20
  if there's like proper training that we can do because i'm really interested now
• 44:24
  would you mean as in training to
• 44:26
  start canny cross yeah so you what
• 44:30
  i would recommend doing is have a look online i got
• 44:33
  my kit from a website called dog fit and they have a
• 44:36
  harness finding form where you can put your dog's measurements in and they'll help you
• 44:38
  find the right kit and they do starter packs and then
• 44:41
  do the catch to 5k with your dog even if you're.
• 44:44
  Already a runner even if you know you're used to running
• 44:47
  do that anyway because the dog's got to to get used
• 44:50
  to pulling you as well that's like that's a lot for the dog that's
• 44:52
  hard work for them you might skip through it a bit more quickly than
• 44:55
  if you were starting from scratch but it's always a good idea
• 44:58
  to get used to that um and have a look and see if you've got
• 45:01
  a local candy club because i will as you
• 45:04
  can hear we really like talking about it i've been
• 45:07
  a whole episode honey and i've come back and maybe come with three members it
• 45:10
  sounds really fascinating and i can i can see
• 45:13
  just from the look on your dog's face the enjoyment
• 45:16
  it must give you the fact that you know one is
• 45:20
  yeah it's amazing but we'll do a whole episode on this
• 45:22
  i'm thinking maybe there's so
• 45:25
  much in there which could change injuries it's interesting you
• 45:28
  said like vertical oscillation was increasing i think that's just the body trying
• 45:32
  to manage how it's what it's going to do during this flight time it can't possibly
• 45:37
  have a cadence which is fast enough to keep you moving along the ground so it's
• 45:40
  like we'll set them up in the air yeah but it's obviously that means you're
• 45:43
  gonna be landing hard and not only gonna be landing on a stone somewhere on
• 45:46
  even ground you're gonna be Yeah, you definitely do.
• 45:49
  And if you do trip, obviously you've got a lot of forward pressure. So I tripped last year.
• 45:56
  I caught my foot. I was jumping over a bike jump in the woods and I caught my toe.
• 46:01
  And because I had the dog pulling me forward, I just couldn't recover at all. And I just...
• 46:05
  Broke my fall with my face so it was fine but you
• 46:09
  know everyone falls over everyone falls over it
• 46:12
  just comes with the territory so yeah there
• 46:16
  was a really good talk to therapy experts quite a common theme amongst three.
• 46:19
  I think angela jackson physio andrew his last
• 46:22
  name's always muck something i can't remember his name the irish
• 46:26
  guy anyway it was all about this idea of
• 46:29
  training athletes for the chaos which is
• 46:32
  their sporting environment and the one word which changes
• 46:34
  my mind not only with canicross but even with trail
• 46:37
  is there's more chaos out there there's more unpredictability and
• 46:41
  they were kind of talking a lot about if you i mean they were relating
• 46:44
  it more to football to rugby where you are suddenly going
• 46:47
  to have to move out the way from an opponent and you're going to have to react to
• 46:50
  your environment and often in rehab we don't prepare people for
• 46:53
  this enough and they will do it through lights through signals through
• 46:56
  having to quickly change direction landing position but
• 46:59
  i think even with trail runners that could be
• 47:02
  something which therapists would benefit from where you're not just
• 47:05
  allowing the runner to be multi-direction and move to the right move
• 47:07
  to the left move backwards i think that's the case where you could stand in
• 47:10
  front or even have lights where they have to react to the light and
• 47:13
  suddenly change because i guess that's what's happening especially with the dog
• 47:16
  where you say you don't know where you're going to land your body's got to suddenly
• 47:19
  centrically deserter decelerate and then accelerate again
• 47:22
  just like that in a moment and if you can't do
• 47:25
  that then you're bound to get get muscles tired and strained
• 47:28
  and it is really quite chaotic so yeah chris have you am i risking my life hannah
• 47:35
  just running around not your whole life hannah looks at me and not honey well
• 47:42
  make sure you're in the canicross episode yeah i'll be there now you are in
• 47:46
  a brace and you're left in one of those.
• 47:48
  I'll show you i'll show the picture of the black eye that i got when i fell
• 47:51
  over and everyone go oh god don't do that because you do work much with reactive
• 47:55
  stuff have you got involved in your lights or have you i can imagine you getting
• 47:58
  involved with red and green lights you know what yeah i've so i played around
• 48:02
  at mike rice's place yesterday with with a bit of that stuff yeah in our place
• 48:06
  to be fair we don't really have anything like that so.
• 48:08
  What I do have is a bit of, I don't know if you've seen them,
• 48:12
  they're like basically like little reaction balls where they're like ugly shit
• 48:15
  and you can basically like bounce them and you don't know which direction it's
• 48:19
  going to go in. Oh, yeah, we call them rugby balls down there. Yeah.
• 48:22
  After they fall, basically, and try to get them in.
• 48:26
  It is again chaos, basically. It's just that throwing that in just reacts.
• 48:31
  I've done quite a bit of stuff with things where we'll
• 48:34
  get like bouncing things off walls and
• 48:37
  things like that and kind of throwing where they've got a turn turn
• 48:40
  when i shout and things like this to things
• 48:44
  quickly and played around with that sort of stuff yeah it's
• 48:47
  good fun so great really important in-stage rehab to get
• 48:50
  the runner used to when they do have to suddenly change direction to miss
• 48:53
  that tree to suddenly get their footing back when they
• 48:55
  hit that uneven terrain or something i think one thing
• 48:58
  as well thinking about canny cross sorry not to
• 49:01
  drag it back that too much but warm-ups are particularly important
• 49:04
  because if you're going to go for a trail run generally i think a lot
• 49:07
  of of people not me but obviously you're like
• 49:10
  oh I'll just start slowly and that's my warm-up and I'll
• 49:12
  run slowly for the first five minutes but you don't really
• 49:15
  do that when you do canny cross you start flat out and
• 49:19
  so warming up is something that I think we're not
• 49:22
  ask people if they warm up because we're not always
• 49:25
  very good at doing that because we're sorting our dogs out and we're not really
• 49:28
  very good at cooling down because we're sorting our dogs out and then by the
• 49:31
  time we've sorted the dog out you're like oh I think I'm cool now I'm just gonna
• 49:33
  go and have a cup of tea and a chat and so that's quite important and actually
• 49:39
  i'd be really interested if anyone else on the panel like what do you say about warm-ups,
• 49:44
  I go for a run before I run with my dog. Does that help?
• 49:48
  I do a couple of miles, honestly. I do a couple of miles before I come and get
• 49:52
  him to then run with him. Yeah, that's probably quite a lot.
• 49:56
  It's a good topic because lots of the traditional advice is,
• 49:58
  oh, well, have you warmed up? Or guess what, the runner says no.
• 50:00
  Oh, well, that's what's causing your injury.
• 50:02
  If you know that no runner's going to say, oh, yes, yes, I spent.
• 50:06
  But how, what do, in 2024 now, and I don't know what the answer is going to
• 50:10
  be, I'm not going to judge, but what do we recommend?
• 50:13
  It will depend on the individual in front of us, but what do we recommend a
• 50:16
  warm-up needs to be for a lot of runners?
• 50:19
  I think maybe unpopular opinion.
• 50:24
  They're not as important as we're made out to believe.
• 50:29
  And I think if you tell runners without understanding their context,
• 50:33
  what they want to do, that they need to warm up, I think you start to tie into
• 50:38
  some... Sorry, you can hear that's a dog.
• 50:41
  Dog dog friendly tonight get him in some caddy cross.
• 50:48
  Yeah it's i think if yeah i
• 50:51
  think it depends on the runner it depends on the relative intensity you're going
• 50:54
  to be doing something i think that's a really good point about if your
• 50:57
  dog is going to take you out fast because you know
• 51:00
  a lot of the research on warm-up is mainly about perception of effort
• 51:03
  but it's just uncomfortable if you're doing something
• 51:06
  hard your body's not ready to do
• 51:09
  it as for increasing the risk of injuries
• 51:12
  and things like that i i don't think
• 51:15
  that's really that accurate or true it's certainly not
• 51:18
  in my case when i've kind of been late to a race or had to scrimp on my warm-up
• 51:23
  a little bit i felt awful starting but it's not always even impacting my performance
• 51:29
  jay what would what would you say so so your clients who are already injured
• 51:35
  who who are trying to get back to running,
• 51:37
  would you give them a specific warm-up to make sure that their injury here is ready to go?
• 51:44
  Or would you recommend the same? I have this discussion with a lot of them.
• 51:51
  Sometimes, I don't know if you'd call it manipulative or not,
• 51:54
  but sometimes I do encourage a warm-up a bit more because actually,
• 51:58
  if that's the time that person's going to do their rehab,
• 52:01
  warm-up stuff that you can do, like the drills and the things,
• 52:04
  and I'm sure Chris sets a lot of his runners as well.
• 52:08
  What's the components of a warm-up other than running? A really good rehab and
• 52:12
  almost prehab work as well.
• 52:15
  Growing up, I didn't get too many injuries and I'd seem to get away with murder.
• 52:19
  Looking back, it's because I lived near where I trained up at the track.
• 52:23
  I was doing warm-ups two or three times a week, just because it's what you did.
• 52:28
  So even when I was injured, I wanted to go back and see my mates and be in a social environment.
• 52:33
  And I always did the warm-up. So call it bias or not, despite
• 52:36
  me not knowing that it's not overly
• 52:39
  important in terms of putting the emphasis on
• 52:43
  it from a injury reduction point of view i don't
• 52:46
  i think that's a load of crap if i'm honest but i
• 52:50
  think it's a really good time to people
• 52:53
  to do their rehab stuff because if you tell them it's part of their running
• 52:57
  and it's going to make them a better runner and it's not adding in boring rehab
• 53:00
  boring rehab exercises i think it's a really useful time to do it and coming
• 53:05
  back to the chaos and the reactions and stuff when you're doing warm-up drills
• 53:09
  high high knees or this type of thing,
• 53:12
  you're not going to be running with your knees up to your chest,
• 53:16
  unless you do a caddy cross perhaps.
• 53:18
  But when you're doing that in warm-ups, like you're increasing your movement
• 53:22
  window and you're increasing that load window and if people just run and only
• 53:26
  run and then only do a run to warm up for their running.
• 53:30
  They don't get much room for error
• 53:33
  really so i think warm-ups are good
• 53:36
  for that but i really don't think
• 53:38
  it's a case of you warm up you reduce the chance of
• 53:41
  injury so it's a case of where it might
• 53:44
  make a difference but there's lower hanging fruit which is always the nice expression
• 53:47
  which if people believe that their five minutes of
• 53:50
  whatever they do is going to stop them from getting injured as
• 53:53
  opposed to monitoring their training load or running
• 53:56
  at a sensible pace or or whatever it is then yeah
• 53:59
  they're going to put all their trust in something which is less likely to
• 54:02
  work than something else i think that's probably the message
• 54:05
  how do you how do you sit in terms of chris
• 54:09
  i'm going to say to you because you've been through i know you've been through the
• 54:12
  years of seeing things come and go and change but are you much
• 54:16
  for getting athletes to do something other than run at a slower pace
• 54:18
  before they run in training get it.
• 54:21
  Kind of depends on the sessions so like it's typically
• 54:25
  a case of like if i'm just like if you're doing a higher intensity session then
• 54:28
  let's let's just drill you a little bit more but again it will
• 54:31
  be more sort of like running drill stuff really rather than
• 54:35
  it being like right okay i want you to do this very
• 54:37
  specific kind of warm-up and things like again similar
• 54:40
  like in terms like even you know just in clinical experience i
• 54:43
  don't really see many issues with people not really
• 54:46
  warming up like it just doesn't seem
• 54:49
  to to be a big thing and yeah is a
• 54:52
  case of i guess like from the warmer probably
• 54:55
  see there's like the injury risk side of things and then like i think
• 54:58
  we spoke about before in terms of like psychological switch and
• 55:01
  just being like just get someone for to be basically
• 55:04
  like a bit more present and like right okay i'm ready
• 55:07
  to go and and things like that can
• 55:09
  be really good just in terms of actually just just switching their mindset a
• 55:13
  little bit from work and life stresses and stuff like that to actually just
• 55:17
  being like right i'm focused on something because you can actually feel that
• 55:20
  can have the bigger impact sometimes rather than it be so much of an injurious
• 55:23
  thing and it just gets them to just be a bit more mindful a bit more present
• 55:26
  and they're just like right i'm ready to go for the session.
• 55:29
  Definitely. I think Sarah's point was interesting as well. When you have got somebody who's injured,
• 55:33
  and again, it depends on the person, like to quote like Greg Layman,
• 55:37
  because I know he loves being quoted, but the whole kind of poke the bear thing,
• 55:39
  like you're going to have a runner who maybe if they're coming back from injury,
• 55:42
  they're not going to touch the bear. They're going to be standing so far away.
• 55:45
  They're worried about it. They've got kinesophobia and maybe they do need some
• 55:49
  calf pumps and even a little bit of ankle dorsiflexion and just stuff to get them more confident.
• 55:55
  Then you've got someone of Shane's level of running, who's probably just
• 55:58
  going to to jump and hump the hump the bear to death because they're
• 56:01
  not scared of anything so they don't quite need
• 56:04
  they don't quite need the kind of
• 56:07
  warm-up and gentle handling as as the
• 56:09
  person who's less confident in their own body because they know what their body
• 56:12
  can do so i think again like you said chris it's psychological
• 56:15
  a lot of the warm-up i think is psychological and i've made mistakes
• 56:18
  in the past probably telling runners you don't need a warm-up don't you know
• 56:21
  this paper this paper this paper says in this paper this if the
• 56:24
  runner feels feels better for having their little warm-up and putting their
• 56:27
  heel up on a you know and doing their hamstring stretches
• 56:30
  and and adopting a range of movement they're not even
• 56:32
  going to use during their race if that makes them feel better you know
• 56:35
  what as long as they're doing everything else let them do it you know and it's i
• 56:38
  think that's worth bearing that in mind as well i think
• 56:41
  shane's idea get doing your exercise doing
• 56:44
  your rehab exercise after your warm-up is great
• 56:48
  because the runners always make time for their run they
• 56:51
  won't always make time for their rehab so if
• 56:54
  you can couple that together that's that's brilliant
• 56:57
  brilliant idea and i think actually to jump
• 57:01
  on top of that i often sometimes do the inverse if i've got a runner coming
• 57:04
  in and they are keen and they do do warm-ups one i ask them a lot of questions
• 57:09
  to back them into a corner you know or do you warm up before a race yeah yeah
• 57:13
  yeah okay why did you do that i want to feel better you know i move move better,
• 57:17
  all of this, and I'm kind of like.
• 57:19
  Accidentally pushing them towards being like, yeah, you should do some rehab
• 57:22
  stuff, you should do that, but even if they're not going to adhere with it,
• 57:27
  It's very, in my experience, maybe
• 57:30
  runners just listen to me because I'm horrible to them, I don't know.
• 57:35
  I think you can get away with it. They know your time. I bet you're on Strava
• 57:38
  and everything. I bet you're the sort of therapist who actually puts their results on Strava.
• 57:44
  Yeah, I do. Go on, show me your Strava and let me see what you're doing now.
• 57:49
  I think I sometimes do that. Okay, actually what Chris said,
• 57:53
  even a lot of us, no matter what our ability, we also run for a reason.
• 57:56
  It's a big part of actual genuine life management
• 57:59
  they form parts of our identities and then you get an
• 58:02
  injured runner who can't look just telling them
• 58:05
  they can go into a warm-up if it's a very slow jog
• 58:08
  and some drills and some strides it keeps
• 58:11
  them that sense of belonging and it keeps that sense of
• 58:14
  purpose and then it's just these little things that return
• 58:17
  hope and again bridge the gap from fear
• 58:20
  of movement and quite often i
• 58:23
  don't know i think that's more important than the actual tissue
• 58:27
  results or the injury results just letting somebody
• 58:30
  know that actually i don't need to be scared of an injury because there's
• 58:33
  still loads of stuff i can do whilst i'm injured and a
• 58:36
  lot of the time the things they learn by even just knowing they
• 58:39
  can go and do a warm-up that's they take that
• 58:42
  with them when they're back into full training anyway whatever the event and
• 58:46
  whatever the ability and you just you see that within your clients and that's
• 58:51
  well if anything it makes you a a bit more proud of a therapist that you can
• 58:55
  give them those things that they can use the rest of their life rather than
• 58:58
  just rehab them from a calf strain or something.
• 59:02
  Very nice. Look, time is unfortunately...
• 59:06
  Beating us once again what i'm going to do in a second and i always mean to tell you these.
• 59:11
  Warn you about this before i put you on the spot i'm going to just
• 59:14
  ask you in turn to just for
• 59:17
  one idea to put theory into practice so something you
• 59:20
  think therapists in a certain position could do next time they
• 59:22
  see their runner it might not apply to them but it will apply to somebody
• 59:25
  out there so just one theory into practice which you think of
• 59:28
  what we talked about tonight you would recommend therapists who want
• 59:31
  to work with runners or who already work with runners could do okay
• 59:34
  before we we do that i'm just going to say so you guys can think about that
• 59:37
  now okay i'm giving you your time now okay your general advice putting theory
• 59:40
  into practice whilst they're thinking about that and wishing that i'd warn them
• 59:43
  about that question beforehand then i'll just let the listeners know that next
• 59:48
  tuesday on the sports association podcast so this is tuesday april the 9th if
• 59:52
  you want to join us live at 8 p.m and just come to youtube or the sports association facebook page,
• 59:57
  there's going to be episode 93 and we're going to have a special on concussion.
• 1:00:00
  Causes risks and treatment with special guest Nicola Hunt.
• 1:00:04
  Nicola is the director and owner of PhysioCare Rehab, has got extensive research
• 1:00:09
  and experience in concussion and is starting later this year.
• 1:00:13
  In fact I think they've started now to offer some courses because it is an area,
• 1:00:16
  we've had Keith Burnett on the show before who a lot of ST members will know,
• 1:00:18
  it's an area where there's a lot of ignorance and misinformation and if you
• 1:00:22
  are working pitch side particularly obviously then it's an area you need to
• 1:00:25
  know about and clear up some of the myths out there.
• 1:00:27
  So we're going to to hear it from one of the specialists in that field,
• 1:00:31
  Nicola Hunt, next week, and also have details on face-to-face online courses
• 1:00:35
  that she's offering to try and improve the information that's out there.
• 1:00:37
  So that's going to be on Tuesday, April 9th, episode 193.
• 1:00:41
  If you want to join us live for that, like I say, just go onto YouTube or Facebook.
• 1:00:46
  Now we go back to episode 192. This is where you give your...
• 1:00:51
  One bit of theory into practice. Shane, you're the fastest here.
• 1:00:55
  We're not going to go in order of speed, so don't worry.
• 1:00:59
  Shane, what would be your one kind of like little bit of advice for people who
• 1:01:02
  either want to run or do work with runners out there? Does it have to be something we've just covered?
• 1:01:07
  No, it might be something that's just occurred to you, if you want. Write a training diary.
• 1:01:12
  Okay, nice. Now that we're in, we're going to have to have a part two of this.
• 1:01:15
  Okay, yeah, keep a training diary to monitor the load. That's good.
• 1:01:17
  Yeah, get a training diary.
• 1:01:19
  Over to you, Hannah. oh if it's something for people who want to start running
• 1:01:23
  i like resetting your personal best every year because you're getting older
• 1:01:26
  every year so don't race the person you were 10 years ago like 10 years ago
• 1:01:31
  me had no children and wasn't running a business,
• 1:01:34
  and had lots and lots of time for run and right now i don't have any of that so,
• 1:01:40
  take it year by year is what i like to do that's really really good that's really
• 1:01:44
  good unless Unless you're Matt Fitzgerald, of course. And then you go crazy things like that.
• 1:01:49
  Word out for Matt. If everyone's familiar with Matt Fitzgerald,
• 1:01:51
  he's got long-term COVID and really suffering from it. Can't even run.
• 1:01:54
  I mean, it's like just terrible.
• 1:01:56
  But what does he do? Well, he decides he's going to run, walk 100K or something
• 1:01:59
  in a time or something just to keep his body going. But amazing.
• 1:02:03
  But anyway, yeah, great advice, Hannah. Love it. Penny, what's your theory into
• 1:02:05
  practice that would advise for our listeners?
• 1:02:09
  When therapists deal with runners, They have to understand that there's a lot
• 1:02:12
  of elements coming into the psychology of the runner, not just the actual running.
• 1:02:18
  There's a lot of things that they need to consider.
• 1:02:21
  They have to ask a lot of questions, basically, like how is his sleep?
• 1:02:25
  Do they get any help with the children? Do they have time to allocate their training properly?
• 1:02:31
  Because I've had a recent experience of someone that they keep getting injuries
• 1:02:35
  and I found out that they only run twice a week.
• 1:02:38
  One short run, one long run. and we're talking about massive difference in in
• 1:02:43
  in distance and it's like well that makes sense why you're getting injured but
• 1:02:47
  it's because they have no other time to run,
• 1:02:50
  great okay so get to know your person lovely chris lots
• 1:02:54
  of questions yeah i guess i see more is
• 1:02:56
  it like questions around around them and also like
• 1:02:59
  what they understand the position that they're in
• 1:03:02
  right now when they're injured what that means to them so is this the first
• 1:03:06
  time they've been injured like what does that injury mean to them where where's
• 1:03:10
  their head out with it basically so that we can better understand that person
• 1:03:13
  in front of us and therefore the things that they they were quite to get from
• 1:03:17
  us as well and the time that we share together to help and move forward.
• 1:03:23
  Brilliant like it yeah talking talking talking to the
• 1:03:25
  runner in front of you and sarah i would
• 1:03:29
  say as a therapist go out and
• 1:03:31
  film races film lots of different types of
• 1:03:34
  runners get getting used to all the
• 1:03:37
  different running styles the the the
• 1:03:40
  problematic the problems that are going to arrive at your door um if you've
• 1:03:45
  if you've been out there already and and got yourself acclimatized to all the
• 1:03:50
  different types of runners you'll have a better chance of working you know successfully
• 1:03:55
  with them that's really cool yeah that's great yeah get out there and spend your time.
• 1:04:00
  Filming other runners and then and testing some of your
• 1:04:03
  theories you soon see don't you that everyone runs differently
• 1:04:06
  once you start filming these people especially when they're not
• 1:04:08
  injured and they're running faster than you ever will in a marathon and you realize how
• 1:04:11
  are they running like that and still doing a three-hour marathon that's ridiculous
• 1:04:15
  it's it does turn a lot of what we're told on its head
• 1:04:17
  when we realize that so yeah great advice get out there
• 1:04:20
  and film some runners wicked right well look i've kept
• 1:04:23
  you 10 minutes longer than i promised people but i'm so sorry for that
• 1:04:25
  but thank you so much for joining us thank you everyone for joining us in
• 1:04:28
  the live lounge as well thank you for your questions just wanted to mention a
• 1:04:31
  couple here that i didn't have time to mention so yeah immy tester thanks for
• 1:04:34
  joining us immy um immy says i would say trail runners get more falls pulled
• 1:04:38
  muscles because of difficult terrain rather than lack of capacity capacity gate
• 1:04:41
  type injuries in general definitely yeah we've got to consider the terrain rather
• 1:04:44
  than just their running form and if they're ready to deal with that terrain
• 1:04:47
  totally different set of.
• 1:04:49
  Necessities they're going to need the skills cecily hissel hey cecily how
• 1:04:52
  you doing cecily says that's a keen walker when i've suggested trying to walk
• 1:04:55
  into a runner i've had to pull out the daggers they've shot at me yeah it's
• 1:04:59
  crazy that again but it's knowing the person you know if you just suddenly launch
• 1:05:04
  it to them say yeah i'm going to suggest you walk and they they just walk out
• 1:05:07
  your door laughing, then it's your fault.
• 1:05:10
  You haven't broken to them gently and kind of, you know, open up that conversation in the right way.
• 1:05:14
  So yeah, great point, Cecily. And that was based on Chris's, wasn't it?
• 1:05:17
  Chris, people underestimate the power of walking in preparation for running,
• 1:05:22
  especially as part of rehab.
• 1:05:23
  Right, great. Thank you, guys. In the show notes, we will have information for
• 1:05:27
  all of our panel tonight.
• 1:05:28
  If you would like to be part of the STA panel for one of our first of the month
• 1:05:33
  episodes, remember next month.
• 1:05:36
  So that's going to be the first Tuesday in May. It's going to be Ask Us Anything
• 1:05:40
  therapy for team sports, something I shied away for for 16, 17 years because
• 1:05:46
  I don't like teams. It's been great. Please come on because I'm going to be
• 1:05:49
  very quiet with that one.
• 1:05:51
  We've got a couple of people who have signed up for it. But,
• 1:05:52
  yeah, we'd love to hear from you if you've got experience working with teams
• 1:05:55
  and you've got something you'd like to share and tips, that'd be great.
• 1:05:57
  And also, like I say, we're going to have therapy for swimmers.
• 1:05:59
  So if you work with a lot of swimmers, that'd be great. And therapy for cyclists.
• 1:06:03
  And if you can think of anything else, I mean, and I never thought of Canicross
• 1:06:06
  as much as I am now. So we will have a whole episode on Canicross.
• 1:06:09
  That'd be great. I'll talk to you later about that, Hannah. That'd be amazing.
• 1:06:12
  And loads of pictures, please.
• 1:06:14
  Loads of pictures. I'll just show pictures. That'll be the whole thing.
• 1:06:18
  That's what I want to see a lot of. That'd be really cool. I think there's a
• 1:06:21
  lot there to be discovered and it'd be great. Yes, we'll do that.
• 1:06:25
  Right. Thank you once again to my SDA panel.
• 1:06:28
  So thank you very much, Penny DeMoss. Thank you for joining us.
• 1:06:30
  And Sarah Clatworthy and Shane Robinson Robinson, and Hannah Tabram,
• 1:06:35
  not Tabram, as I initially said.
• 1:06:37
  And also, who have I missed out? And also Chris Kitson as well.
• 1:06:40
  Thank you very much for joining us.
• 1:06:41
  And thank you, the listener. If you listened to the podcast and you've enjoyed
• 1:06:44
  what you heard, then do please leave us a rating, particularly on Apple Podcasts,
• 1:06:47
  because it just helps the good word of our guests get out there more,
• 1:06:51
  which is what it's all about.
• 1:06:52
  Right. Take care, people. Hopefully see some of you live next Tuesday and look
• 1:06:56
  after each other. Bye-bye.
• 1:06:59
  Music.