Latest / Success Story with Scott Clary / Dr. Thema Bryant - Renowned Psychologist & Trauma Healer | Break Free from Trauma Cycles & Reclaim Your Power

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Dr. Thema Bryant - Renowned Psychologist & Trauma Healer | Break Free from Trauma Cycles & Reclaim Your Power · Success Story with Scott Clary

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  for thousand dollars off you begin to take care of yourself not abandon yourself then everything
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  flows from that problematic people approach everybody the question is like how long do you
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  entertain them some people talk about healing dr. thima brian lives it a renowned psychologist
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  author professor and ordain minister she spent her life helping people break free from trauma reclaim
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  their authentic selves and build meaningful connections my area of research is actually trauma
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  recovery many times when people have experience extreme stress or trauma they disconnect and a
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  part of what you disconnect from can be your heart so a part of the healing process is reconnecting
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  with yourself including reconnecting with your heart many times we set it up as an either or
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  because they do you want to be a successful person or do you want to be a well person it's not
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  that's a false choice you can be both but you have to invest in both with a doctorate from Duke
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  post-doctoral training at Harvard in leadership at Princeton in pepper dine she's shaped global
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  conversations on mental health spirituality and social justice sometimes we are stuck in guilt and
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  shame about mistakes we made in the past personal or business wise learn from it and move forward
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  as former APA president she's been a leading voice in mental health equity through her best
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  selling books podcast and sacred artistry she's guiding millions back to themselves today she's
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  here to share her wisdom let's get into it welcome the success story on your host scott clary the
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  success story podcast is part of the hub spot podcast network hub spot not only supports the show
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  but they support entrepreneurs that's why it's such a huge fan of hub spot and I'm very grateful
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  I want to start with sort of a main focus that you centered your work on so
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  what made you focus on the heart as key to a mental health crisis yes so many times we ignore our
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  feelings and people will even vilify how they feel and say you know I'm just focused on the logic
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  or I make decisions based on what makes sense and can neglect what are the things that bring you
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  joy what are the things that create despair or distress for you what are the things that you're
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  grieving and so for us to be holistically well it requires us tending to our hearts and not
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  thinking of our hearts as an afterthought or as a problem is a core part of who we are it's so
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  interesting because I've always found that we make these decisions with emotions but then we justify
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  them with logic but for some reason you try and trick ourselves into thinking that it was just
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  logic the entire time so first of all just speak to why we do this and also maybe give some
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  context as to how did your research go in this direction what was the inflection point to push you
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  down this path yes absolutely so my area of research is actually trauma recovery so many times
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  people have gone through very difficult experiences whether they were the direct target of the trauma
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  or they love and care about someone who went through a traumatic experience individually or we
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  see like collective trauma as well whether school shootings or a veteran after war and so many times
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  when people have experience extreme stress or trauma they disconnect and a part of what you
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  disconnect from can be your heart so when you ask people like you know how do you feel about that
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  oh yeah I don't know or like nothing so they're just kind of numb so a part of the healing
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  process is reconnecting with yourself including reconnecting with your heart and I feel like that's not
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  an easy it's not an easy thing to prove if everybody just thought hey if I just spend like a little
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  bit more time focusing on myself and focusing on how I feel but I think there I think there's
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  something scary there about going and looking inside like what what actually happens
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  with trauma like what's the scientific reason for that disconnect and you're talking about these
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  really horrible examples of trauma but I think that most people have some sort of
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  trauma childhood trauma things that they haven't dealt with things that are not as incredibly
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  horrific as school shootings and war but just things to still impact them so what happens with this
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  so it becomes really a priority for people to feel safe and so one way we can feel safe is you know
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  when we hear the teenagers say like I don't care you know you tell them there could be a bad
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  consequence I don't care and then some of us become adults who still convince ourselves not to
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  care because we don't want to be hurt again we don't want to be disappointed again so then people
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  think the solution is the illusion of control and if I try to control everything in my environment
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  and try to control myself including my emotions then that feels safe to people then that can be
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  falsely thought of as strong you know that this person is so strong nothing moves them or nothing
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  phases them and so the heart has become hardened as a way to feel safe even though we're disconnected
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  from ourselves and you feel like this goes counter like what is the what is the I guess the legacy or
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  the traditional way to deal with this yeah so you know what happens is basically we can't
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  heal a wound that we don't acknowledge so if I keep saying I'm fine but I'm actually not fine
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  I'm just kind of diving into being a workaholic being a perfectionist being very driven
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  but I think I'm fine then the negative consequences can show up in the way that I treat myself so
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  that can be self neglect and self abandonment it may be the way that I treat people who are close
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  to me because that doesn't feel safe or comfortable and so the way that I parent can be affected by my
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  unhealed wounds the way I treat my partner can be an effect of my my unaddressed hurts and so it is
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  important that we start to tell ourselves the truth that we have been through some things that were
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  disturbing or that were upsetting that had an impact and that we then open ourselves up to being
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  transformed to making a different decision so that my wounds are not running my life and I think
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  that so you're saying most people don't even realize that they have these these yeah especially if
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  as you mentioned if it was a childhood wound then people will say oh no that's just my personality
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  right because they develop this armor so early they don't remember a version of themselves before
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  they were so defended or cold or hard and so what I say is that's actually not you that's your wound
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  you never got to develop a freely flowing you but you can you can develop that now even in
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  adulthood we can develop it and then when this when they don't heal these wounds for the
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  average person listening to this who is a high performer in their work or in their business or
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  just in life they just want to kill it at everything doing credible how do these wounds manifest
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  because I think that part of you teach so much in terms of healing with yourself with others
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  but nobody can heal if they don't even recognize to your point that they have a problem
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  so how do these things show up in your day to day yeah you may be financially successful
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  resume incredible but my question would be how are you in the middle of the night by yourself
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  right because many of us can outwardly perform that that's our way of coping is to stay busy
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  but as you were alluding to for some people it's scary to be still and let truth show up
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  so that's why some of us are workaholics you know you want to be so busy because you're
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  either running in pursuit of self-worth or running from the stigma and shame of your past
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  and so for you to actually be well not just look good on paper this is what we're talking about
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  tending to your heart and it also can affect the way you show up in the workplace we've all had
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  that supervisor or boss who was very controlling very dismissive very dishonoring they were not
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  well they're on top of this business mountain but they're not a well person and so many times we
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  set it up as an either or we say do you want to be a successful person or do you want to be a well
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  person and it's not that's a false choice you can be both but you have to invest in both right so
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  we've invested in the business part have you invested in the inner part yeah because I think that
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  I'm just thinking about some of my friends that have been like ridiculously successful from a
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  financial standpoint and you know they they have their exit or they build their business and then
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  the relationship with the kids isn't great or they divorce their wife or they they and then they
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  you see these crazy stories absolutely crazy stories of people that have had like $100 million
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  dollar exit then they're depressed yes and they can't figure out why and it and they can't say that
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  because everyone's going to be like whoa right I got a strong again now that he's so happy yeah
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  to see the same thing happen with lottery winners right where people thought like if you made
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  this amount that that's guaranteed happiness and people you know can live in a mansion and be
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  miserable miserable you blend you blend a heart and you blend sort of how do I say this like you
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  blend the heart and you blend science and then you blend soul all into this healing formula why is
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  it important to bridge these gaps like traditionally I mean you were you were a president of the APA
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  which was just phenomenal does traditional textbook APA say that you blend science and soul
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  and heart into healing somebody or is this a sort of a new novel idea so one of the beautiful
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  things trend that's happening in psychology is an increased attention to our spirituality or
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  faith or religion which returns psychology to its roots that it's not just about your cognitions
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  but to really think about ourselves holistically so your thoughts your emotions your behavior your
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  sense of what is sacred to you your relationships and community so it's an important part and we have
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  you know well established research of these things as what we will call protective factors
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  that when you go through the difficulties of life the stress of life having a sense of what's
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  sacred to you and or having community those things can protect us and help us to deal with life
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  challenges okay so that makes sense so you do have to account for all the factors that impact
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  your day like you can't heal yourself fully by saying I'm gonna I'm gonna logic myself into
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  doing some inner work and some and some internals and some internal searching but I'm going to
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  remove the emotions out of that I'm gonna remove the spirituality out of it which I think
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  that's what people tend to do people that are high performing logical people like how do I fix
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  everything with a solution or a template or a playbook and you're saying that's the wrong
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  attitude to go into any of this yeah you want to say I'm not gonna ignore or censor parts of
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  myself I want to be fully grounded in truth as always say you know to ourselves what parts of you
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  do you miss what parts of you were you taught to suppress or to ignore um that in order to be
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  successful I can't be connected to feelings or in order to be successful I can't have relationships
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  so there are these false notions that we've been given and that we then go and teach the people
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  after us you know some people who were mentored to believe that these things were true and yet maybe
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  the person who was mentoring them still has some brokenness or has some aspects of their life
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  that are unfulfilled I just want to take a second and thank cornbread ham for supporting today's
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  so how can you tell if a personality trait is serving you or maybe hurting you because some people
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  again some some people have adopted these personality traits they've built their entire career off
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  it what are the signals that things are broken in your life yes so you know you look at what you
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  gained by being a certain way but you also want to count the cost right so if I say well you know
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  the key to being successful is I only sleep five hours and that's way I'm working when other people
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  are sleeping and that's the key to success I get more done because everybody else is asleep right okay
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  so you got a couple of extra hours of sleep I mean a couple extra hours of work but what did you
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  give up by that right what did that cost you not only during that time and we could even say
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  what was the quality of the work you were doing right so I could be sitting in front of a computer
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  but if I'm drained and empty then like what am I producing out of that fatigue and then I also
• 17:54
  require that from my team who are the people who could have been good contributors to my team
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  but left because of these unrealistic and humane expectations so you know what does it cost and
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  then I would encourage people to look for other models so you may have thought that is the key
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  because that's what you saw someone you admire do are there any examples of people who do it another
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  way right it's so refreshing if you're ever in a work setting where the supervisor or boss is
• 18:28
  actually a kind person so it pushes back against this myth that to be a successful leader you have to
• 18:36
  be like harsh right it's like yeah another way it had like do we have evidence of that we do have
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  evidence of that of course and I think that you know um you're speaking about leadership and like
• 18:49
  the work context but I think that a lot of people because I bring this up quite often on the
• 18:54
  podcast like look at your family relationships to obviously that's a huge signal of success because
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  again in work it's one thing but some people put so much of themselves into work that everything
• 19:05
  else sort of falls by the wayside and this is why you see people after building anything significant
• 19:10
  and they have a divorce or their kids hate them because they're not they're not around and I also
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  would say it maybe just tell me your thoughts on this because I think it's a very interesting idea
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  so people will push back and say hey I'm doing okay with my work and my relationship at home is okay
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  like I mean we're not fighting but I think we get so used to status close and base lines and
• 19:31
  the norm and for a second like I would just gonna go ahead but I was gonna say I just want
• 19:36
  people to not think about okay it's not like it's not like we're cheating on each other and
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  divorced and screaming but like could it be better right that's so important because sometimes
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  our bar is so off our standard is so off and we're taking people for granted there isn't joy
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  there but you said like no one's leaving we've committed to staying but like I always say like
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  it's not how many years do you have together how many years where each person was actually joyful
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  well each person really felt the other one had their back right where each person was
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  fulfilled in it right and so for us to be intentional and that's not just about what I'm giving to
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  the other person that nourishing my relationships always comes back to me as well that it it because
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  it's nourishing for me to be in a well-ordered garden and I don't even think that I don't think
• 20:35
  people understand that I think that sometimes the relationship becomes this thing that they have
• 20:41
  to take care of but it's not in their mind it's like it's so far from a point where it can actually
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  come back and benefit me that it's just I can't it's hard for them to see themselves getting
• 20:51
  to that point there's like this this huge divide but based on your work the goal is not to just jump
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  in and triage the relationship I think the goal is to start to do the work on yourself first
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  right yeah so where do you start yeah so a big part is when we talk about self-compassion
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  because when I'm compassionate towards myself I take better care of myself so that can include
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  the rest that includes what I eat like eating to live that includes movement exercise that may
• 21:28
  include individual therapy or couples therapy it also includes immersing yourself in things that
• 21:37
  bring you joy that's a way of taking care of yourself how it thermon is theologian said do the
• 21:44
  thing which makes you come alive because far too few people are actually alive and so then it's like
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  the care of my physical body but also like emotionally and spiritually you know what feeds me what
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  nourishes me that will also include setting boundaries so what are the things and the people I need
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  to say no to to better honor myself and to protect my peace and my wellness that I can't keep saying
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  yes to everything being pulled in a million directions it's not good for our health and also
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  we don't do those things well because we're too spread then and so the I call the blessing
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  of boundaries so bless yourself with the holiness of no what am I going to say no to
• 22:34
  and that often for some of us those who are more on like the people pleaser part of the scale
• 22:40
  we probably need to pause before we answer right if someone asks you to do something instead of
• 22:45
  an automatic yes to pause sometimes get some more information because you don't know how much
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  is being required by what they're asking reflect on it and know that you don't have to say yes to
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  nice addition to my wellness toolkit I don't use them every day just when I want to win wine after
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  those extra busy weeks but they're perfect for those moments when you want to take the edge off
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  and just find your balance really just shut off from work now what makes them special is how cornbread
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  dash offer for 60% off I feel like everybody I don't know it just feels like everybody's trying to
• 26:04
  keep up all the time and you know what you mentioned about creating space to pursue what you
• 26:10
  actually find joy and what you actually love I don't think I can count many people that I know
• 26:17
  that are creating space in their lives I think that it's all very reactive I think that you have
• 26:23
  your work and you have your family and you have your kids schedule and maybe if you have some time
• 26:28
  you get to the gym but I think that what people live a lot of life reactively in the first step
• 26:34
  is to create that space because if you live life reactively you have no idea what joy is right can't
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  yes and for some of us some people were raised to feel guilty for enjoying themselves to feel guilty
• 26:48
  for relaxing you know depending on your kind of family culture it may have been like a bad thing
• 26:54
  to quote unquote just sit around right if you had to always be doing something and so some of us
• 27:01
  have been made to believe that our busyness equals our worth so we're like I'm booked and busy I'm
• 27:07
  booked and busy and I have to have multiple streams of income and if I enjoy something and I'm
• 27:12
  not making money off of it then it's a problem and it's like no that's your joy that's your joy
• 27:18
  I think that that's most people yes I think that's most people sadly it is and in chasing something
• 27:27
  you know it's a societal setup to never have fulfillment to never have contentment for it to
• 27:34
  never be enough you know I practice in Los Angeles and so a number of my clients are very successful
• 27:43
  but even if they're having some form of success they're always looking at like who is a step ahead
• 27:51
  of them right it's like I'm in the magazine but how come I wasn't on the cover right it's always
• 27:57
  you know it's always insufficient how do I I love how you know the deeper get into this
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  it's very obvious there's like a lot of friction in in in being happy in doing the inner work and
• 28:10
  finding that there's so much friction you just mentioned the good point society and I keep thinking
• 28:14
  about I want to talk about how to build relationship with others but I don't even think it's fair to
• 28:18
  go there yet because people are still trying to figure out okay you're telling me all the things
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  that I'm maybe now aware of society setup social media setup comparison like everyone's saying
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  they have to do more do more do more have to be productive have to make more money is there any
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  like I don't know strategy I don't want to think make it sound so robotic but just something
• 28:44
  somebody can do right now who is part of this part of this all these signals all these inputs they're
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  like I don't know how to shut off because my my wife my friends they're all playing this game
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  of needing more and more and more how do I tune out how do I remove myself from the matrix so it's
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  be yeah I think one of the things is actually celebrating our wins and celebrating the wins of
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  our friends and family when we're so perpetually driven for more we don't even pause to enjoy
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  like the good thing that happened right right and even you know you see people in the media and
• 29:23
  they're like so what's next for you and it's like they're currently touring on a film like a
• 29:28
  blockbuster but no it's what's next so it's like I want to sit in the beauty of this present moment
• 29:34
  right and we shall see what's next but in this moment I'm very excited about what I'm doing or what
• 29:41
  I what I've done and we can create that climate with our family and friends as well because some
• 29:47
  of them as you said are like off to the next and it's like no less less pause and celebrate this
• 29:53
  is awesome what you have done I think the more I think the more you get into the routine of
• 29:58
  celebrating and and and creating space for wins it starts to become more normal it's just not
• 30:03
  normal because you don't do it right you do it enough it starts yeah yes yeah and then you can
• 30:09
  shift the culture of your circle then that becomes the thing of like oh what are we doing to celebrate
• 30:14
  such and such right and then that becomes as you say it becomes the norm so along with the self
• 30:20
  compassion another piece that we want to work on is self forgiveness sometimes we are stuck in guilt
• 30:29
  and shame about mistakes we made in the past personal or business wise and so because we then
• 30:37
  don't feel worthy we're perpetually trying to outrun our past and so to give myself peace to
• 30:46
  be an imperfect person and yeah there are some things I didn't know five years ago ten years ago
• 30:52
  even yesterday right and I give myself grace to like not have to live in punishment mode the
• 30:59
  rest of my life but to learn from it and and move forward when you do that work and then you start
• 31:07
  to uncover some space in your life and you start to sort of find out what gives you joy what's
• 31:13
  actually what what is happening what is what is what is what are you healing yourself at this point
• 31:17
  is it sort of like the first step yeah you're starting to heal and you're giving you're rewiring
• 31:24
  your nervous system right so your nervous system when you're just constantly on the go is never
• 31:31
  settled and it our bodies weren't designed to always be stressed right the stress is supposed to
• 31:37
  emerge when we're in a place of danger and it helps us to then mobilize so we can get out of there
• 31:43
  or take action but some of us live in that perpetual state of stress so when I engage in things that
• 31:50
  bring me joy or things that are relaxing it gives my nervous system the message I'm safe I'm okay
• 31:58
  I can breathe and we make better decisions and our health is better when we have some of that
• 32:06
  more settled or peaceful part to our eating instead of always being on the go or in combat mode
• 32:16
  where we're fighting everything and everyone and then when you start to now you operate from a much
• 32:21
  healthier state of mind a much better place this is this is what you're talking about you're now
• 32:26
  healing you're healing your mind you're healing your heart and this is the internal work is there
• 32:31
  other ideas around internal work that people should know before they start to try and fix
• 32:38
  relationships with others right so a part of it can be healing the wounds from your past
• 32:45
  relationships so when you've had unhealthy past relationships you often you may have over
• 32:53
  generalized or you've come up with some cognition some thoughts some rules about how relationships work
• 33:00
  that were based on the dysfunctional ones you were in and so then you can bring that thing pattern
• 33:06
  to new people because you haven't healed it so I always say instead of jumping from one relationship
• 33:13
  to the next let me pause heal learn the lesson so I don't have to repeat the class if we've all
• 33:22
  these all these traumas that were like we're not aware of because we're healing our heart we're
• 33:27
  healing our soul we're just becoming a more centered we're setting our boundaries coming more
• 33:32
  centered person the traumas that we don't know that we had because like you mentioned before we kind
• 33:38
  of lived through it it changed our reality for lack of a better description and now that's
• 33:45
  our new reality how do we how do we understand what what happened and go back to that place
• 33:52
  and and figure out how it how we were before our reality shift right it is it depends on the age
• 34:00
  that you were at the time so you know if things were pretty much routine and pretty much safe
• 34:08
  until the person you dated at 17 or 22 then you can think about how was I before this and trying
• 34:17
  to recover or regain some of that for myself for other people who may have grown up in very
• 34:24
  stressful households where there was addiction or where there was any form of abuse or abandonment
• 34:31
  you may not know a prior version of yourself and so then it is kind of creating it from scratch
• 34:39
  and starting to recognize your why so become curious about you know why do I respond with
• 34:47
  such intensity when I'm dealing with someone who has some authority over me or some power over me
• 34:54
  how come other people seem to be calm in this setting and for me I feel like I'm in danger right
• 35:00
  so as I start to become curious and observant then I can start to connect the dots of you know maybe
• 35:08
  it's because the people I've encountered who had power over me used it in a harmful way and so now I'm
• 35:14
  always on guard for that to happen so of course that work is easier done if we're in therapy someone
• 35:21
  who can help you walk through that process but if you're doing it with self-help books and journaling
• 35:28
  it's that curiosity and observation and then there's I mean with your work you started to
• 35:34
  discover that the connect there was a significant connection between the self-work and the relationship
• 35:40
  so what so when you start to do the self-work what what happens with the relationships what's the
• 35:46
  connection well to start with when I work on myself who I choose is different right if I'm in a place
• 35:56
  of neglect and not feeling good about myself then a lot of unacceptable things will be acceptable
• 36:05
  because I figure like this is the best I can get or I should just be grateful they chose me
• 36:11
  I'm just glad they called me back after I texted them 10 times so those kinds of decision
• 36:20
  making what I like to say is problematic people approach everybody the question is like how long
• 36:26
  do you entertain them and when I feel better about myself I don't feel the need to convince people
• 36:33
  of my worth I don't feel the need to stay in toxic situations so long I'm more able to let things
• 36:40
  go or to recognize what aligns with me and also some of that desperation goes down
• 36:48
  because I enjoy my own company and then you know if I meet friends or a partner who align with that
• 36:55
  that will be beautiful but I'm not needing to like fill that spot today right yeah I can't tolerate
• 37:02
  myself then it's like kind of anyone who comes along I'm going to put in that spot because I don't
• 37:07
  want to be by myself what are some of the ways so you now now you focus on the right connections but
• 37:14
  say those right connections are in your life the people you work with the person you're dating or
• 37:18
  married to or say you already have those connections like you have your kids your kids are not new to
• 37:22
  your life they were always there you done some self work right how do you start to strengthen those
• 37:28
  relationships or how do you even to your point like understand if those relationships need strengthening
• 37:33
  which I think even if they're not bad like we sort of spoke about before they could always be better
• 37:38
  yeah so one of them is through deepening our communication so we may not have like problematic
• 37:45
  communication where people aren't like yelling and cursing at each other but our people actually
• 37:50
  sharing on the heart level and we can create that shift or that deepening by us introducing
• 37:58
  that dialogue so for example during the pandemic both of my kids were you know home doing school
• 38:05
  online and so at dinner we would have a conversation about you know what was the best and worst part
• 38:12
  of the day and I would share as well and my transparency about like the difficulty of us you
• 38:20
  know being at home or not getting to see friends that was like a permission slip to them for them
• 38:26
  to begin to share versus parenting that just as like you should be grateful or you know you should
• 38:33
  never be disappointed or sad or angry and so by me being more open it creates more openness in my
• 38:42
  relationships so you create more openness you have deeper you have start to have deeper relationships
• 38:49
  deeper conversations how do you strengthen these conversation these relationships if the person
• 38:57
  your work or you're trying to build the relationship with has not done the work that you've done
• 39:02
  because it does take two people to build the relationship and then you what you don't want say
• 39:06
  just using me as an example I do all this self work I'm trying to build a deeper relationship with
• 39:13
  my wife and you have an amazing relationship I don't want it to be construed by say say I don't
• 39:18
  want to people think oh my god it's got has to do a whole bunch of work and Gina's not happy by
• 39:22
  but say I want to do some work and and she hasn't done the work and then she's like what what's
• 39:31
  going on why are you acting so weird why what is this what is this new you that's and I think
• 39:36
  that it could be off putting for some for someone who's in your circle or even forget your partner
• 39:42
  a work a workperson a business partner it could be incredibly off putting because they don't have
• 39:48
  that romantic intimate connection with you they're just a almost like a business transaction
• 39:53
  relationship and you want and you understand that having a deeper more meaningful
• 39:59
  relationship with that person is going to be positive on the other side of it but they don't
• 40:04
  want to go down that same path as you or they don't understand what you've done yes I appreciate
• 40:10
  the question because for me it's so important not to like sugar coat things or just be like this
• 40:15
  motivation here like it'll be great uh it has its costs when you heal and change you'll discover
• 40:22
  some people like to the old you some people were comfortable with your brokenness some people were
• 40:28
  benefited from your insecurity you know by your silenced muted voice by you being a doormat
• 40:35
  by you never having any of your own opinions but doing whatever they say some people love that
• 40:41
  and so as you heal and start to look deeper and speak from a more deeper place then it will
• 40:48
  shift things it's a ripple effect so some people will shift with you and some people will fade away
• 40:56
  that's tough it is and I want to say too as it relates to uh marriage that they are different ways
• 41:04
  of working with ourselves so I find it really important for us never to get to the place where like
• 41:11
  our path is the only path so if they're not doing it our way then we're like they're not doing the
• 41:16
  work and you know an example that just comes up for me is working with a couple and the wife is
• 41:24
  really into like self-help books and the guy is just not a reader he's never been into books the
• 41:30
  whole time they were dating and now they're married and she was trying to frame it as if he doesn't
• 41:36
  read these books he doesn't care about the marriage it's like that's not true like when you when
• 41:40
  you got with him he went into books so but what are the other ways that he demonstrates his care
• 41:47
  and desire for you all to have a healthy marriage so yeah it's just important that we brought in our
• 41:54
  idea of what the pathways of what work self-improvement look like there has to be something
• 42:02
  about seeing seeing development through the lens of the other person like walking their shoes
• 42:10
  it sounds cliche but it's so true and I think that we've been so funny we forget like the most
• 42:15
  cliche common sense sayings when we when we try and build relationships but they are very true because
• 42:23
  if we're doing all this work and the other person shows support love
• 42:28
  camaraderie friendship in a different way what I found to be the not toxic toxic so wrong word
• 42:35
  but the negative part of doing the self-help and the self-work is you imposing that exact same thing
• 42:41
  on someone else and then you're trying to increase their standard without them even understanding
• 42:45
  that you're you're playing a whole different game right that's right yeah we make ourselves not only
• 42:52
  the center but the standard so then like if you're not doing what I'm doing then you're not ready or
• 42:58
  you're not serious or and yeah perspective taking and compassion and just more of an openness
• 43:08
  because the whole goal of this is not so that you think that you've done the work and now you're
• 43:13
  better than everyone else that's right then we got to start all over
• 43:17
  ah exactly exactly and I'm sure you see this I'm sure you see this for some people becomes
• 43:24
  the ego trip yeah then it's like now you still can't see yourself right because you have this
• 43:31
  like inflated a sense of self which we know that inflated sense of self is a cover for insecurity
• 43:38
  a big thank you to indeed for supporting success story because hiring people is one of the hardest
• 43:42
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  more visibility at indeed dot com slash clary terms of conditions do apply just go to indeed dot com
• 45:03
  slash clary a huge thank you to net suite for supporting today's episode now what does the future
• 45:08
  hold for business if you ask nine experts you're going to get 10 answers bull market bear market
• 45:14
  inflation up inflation down honestly at this point you just need a crystal ball but until we get one
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  over 41,000 businesses have found the next best thing they future proof their businesses their
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  operations with net suite by oracle which is the number one cloud ERP imagine having your
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  accounting your financial management your inventory your HR all flowing together in one fluid
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  platform and here's what makes net suite different it gives you one source of truth for your
• 45:40
  business you get the visibility and control to make quick confident decisions while others are
• 45:45
  guessing you're working with real-time data insights forecasting you're basically looking
• 45:50
  in the future of your business with actionable data whether your company earns a couple million
• 45:55
  or even hundreds of millions net suite helps you respond to immediate challenges and helps you grab
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  your biggest opportunities and speaking of opportunities they put together the CFO's guide to AI
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  and machine learning and net suite dot com slash Scott clary this is the playbook for understanding
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  how to use AI for your business the guide is free that is net suite dot com slash Scott clary a
• 46:16
  shadow to Nord VPN for supporting today's episode I have to tell you a story so I was actually in
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  Toronto visiting family last month and I went to binge some of my favorite Netflix shows I forgot
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  description trust me it's worth checking out especially if you travel or stream content regularly
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  that's nord VPN dot com slash success so when there's somebody who is knock on a strenny who's an
• 47:38
  important person in your life what's what's your advice to start building that you've done the work
• 47:44
  yourself you want to strengthen that relationship business personal otherwise they're not on the same
• 47:49
  page they're the boyfriend who hasn't read a book of the entire relationship what do you do
• 47:55
  so I would look at creating co-creating moments of joy together that are out of our norm
• 48:04
  so it may be like they don't want to read the book but the author is given some talk in town
• 48:09
  and so to see like they want to they you know they may be more open to hearing someone speak if
• 48:13
  they're an interesting speaker than like reading the whole book or you know going horseback riding
• 48:20
  or whatever it is like a different experience that can stretch us instead of remaining stagnant where
• 48:27
  you know all we do is like go our separate ways and we're like roommates but we're disconnected
• 48:34
  yeah I guess it's like you're kind of doing what you did for yourself you're creating space for
• 48:39
  joy because you're you're understanding that the majority of people do not have joy in their life
• 48:45
  they have they're on a hamster wheel they have all this commitment and they're always
• 48:49
  rushing to keep up and that's why you know a lot of times people will begin to think about their
• 48:54
  marriage or relationship just as obligation or duty or bills because what has been neglected in
• 49:01
  that is the friendship and it is the joy what would be the biggest when it comes to building
• 49:07
  relationships meaningful relationships like heart-centered soul-centered relationships
• 49:14
  what do you think is the biggest misconception about how to do it a big mistake that people make
• 49:22
  is trying to be who they think the person wants and not being honest so you know we we may think
• 49:32
  we're protecting their feelings sometimes we're like avoiding conflict but our emotions have
• 49:38
  a change so that we can have growing resentment and the other person have no idea that something's
• 49:45
  wrong so I would say that lack of communication and pretending to be okay with things we're not okay
• 49:52
  with when you harbor that resentment towards somebody for so long yeah I'm sure you see what show
• 49:57
  but I'm sure there's like physical health issues natural health issues all of it yeah including
• 50:03
  there's research on suppressed anger and women showing up with autoimmune disease it can show up in
• 50:12
  our you know respiratory system women and men our reproductive system digestive system so you
• 50:20
  know a lot around gut health is like connected to our stress levels so it is important that we express
• 50:28
  ourselves so that we can actually build something real if I'm having to pretend in your pretending
• 50:36
  we don't have a real foundation yeah and just some of the more difficult parts of relationships so
• 50:43
  trust issues betrayal conflict personal and professional you know the lessons sort of
• 50:49
  crossover to both what's the advice for somebody to maintain these relationships through conflict
• 50:57
  and then I'll ask about betrayal as well because obviously that's a huge one in work or with the
• 51:01
  cheating spouse partner something or even not even that serious so first of all conflict so you've
• 51:07
  done to you done this work how do you you have conflict with somebody you don't want to throw it
• 51:10
  all at the window what do you do yeah so one of the things with conflict is recognizing some things
• 51:19
  are not that deep right I like to say some things are not drama worthy so like I really like going
• 51:25
  off because of the and if there is a big like commotion over something that seems small then really
• 51:31
  that's not the issue is like what do you are really arguing about because it doesn't match the
• 51:36
  intensity doesn't match the topic right so I think a part of it is also recognizing that
• 51:44
  your spouse doesn't have to agree with you on everything some people like sincerely take
• 51:50
  disagreement as disrespect right of like how dare they disrespect me by having a different
• 51:57
  opinion now that's not disrespect they have their individual who had a different life experience
• 52:04
  than you so they land in a different place on this particular topic so you know a part of it when
• 52:11
  we're trying to find resolution can be does it have to be either or like whatever we're debating
• 52:19
  is this one of those way it could be a both and or is it like you know opposite perspective so we
• 52:24
  really have to choose and then like either who has more investment in it because for some things
• 52:34
  some of us may feel like I have a preference but I don't really care right like if I was going to
• 52:39
  choose I would pick this but whatever right versus the other person may be like I want this and it
• 52:46
  means a lot to me okay so you put that in the equation and then you can also you know consider
• 52:53
  some level of expertise right if one of the two people have like a finance background and we're
• 53:00
  making a financial decision well you know if we have a different perspective less think about maybe
• 53:06
  who has the experience on the topic and let that you know put some weight on the scales yeah no I
• 53:14
  makes it I like I like that approach a lot and then the second part to that would be the betrayal
• 53:20
  piece so when somebody betrays you obviously you probably have opinions about which relationships
• 53:28
  are worth maintaining which relationships you should exit out of given the opportunity if you do
• 53:33
  have that opportunity exit out of them what are some thoughts of people should consider if there's
• 53:39
  betrayal in the relationship yes great question and I will say you know in my clinical work I always
• 53:46
  leave it to people to decide right like good therapy is self-empowerment for people to
• 53:53
  honor their choices and also for me I'm not going to have people years from now saying you told me
• 54:00
  that wasn't me like you chose for yourself um but you know factors for people to consider um
• 54:08
  um is the person demonstrating consistent remorse because sometimes people apologize
• 54:18
  but if you bring it up a week or two weeks later they have a bad attitude like I thought you
• 54:23
  forgave me why do you keep throwing it in my face it's like this just happened and there's still hurt
• 54:28
  by it right yeah so consistent remorse and is it are they just upset they got caught or are they
• 54:40
  upset that they have jeopardized the relationship because they actually like don't want to lose this
• 54:45
  person um and then you know you can think about uh the pattern of it um you know for some people
• 54:54
  once is sufficient because I feel like if you did it once you'll do it again for other people they're
• 54:59
  like oh if it was kind of only once I'll give that a yes so you have to decide for yourself where
• 55:06
  that line is uh for some people it's the level of connection with that person uh like a one night
• 55:14
  stand versus like you can have a whole nother day down the street right yeah well uh you know all
• 55:20
  of those can be factors but what one of the factors that people often don't consider which I think
• 55:26
  is really important is what has been the state of the relationship overall right because if you
• 55:34
  felt good in the relationship then you may feel like that goodness was enough to fight for
• 55:41
  and that you want to like restore that versus if like the other areas of the relationship were
• 55:48
  already problematic and maybe the one thing you were holding on to was at least this person is
• 55:54
  faithful right so you're like uh they don't do this they don't do that but at least I can trust them
• 56:00
  well in that circumstance when the person breaks your trust thing you're like well now we have
• 56:03
  nothing yeah is there is there a way that you've seen nothing is a hundred percent certain
• 56:12
  but is there some way to understand if that person is sorry that they got caught versus sorry that
• 56:21
  they hurt you because I think that is a huge yes a huge factor in that decision right is their tone
• 56:29
  in response to you afterwards like I was saying if they're acting like it's a problem that you're
• 56:37
  asking questions right if they're acting like it's a problem that intimacy is now hard for you
• 56:43
  because of what they did see someone who who regrets it and feels for you will understand that you're
• 56:51
  not just a light switch so there are going to be consequences of their behavior so they will
• 56:59
  deal with themselves sit with themselves to be able to have the patience for your process
• 57:05
  and to keep showing up instead of then doing the mind game where you're the problem because you're hurt
• 57:11
  thank you net sweet for supporting today's episode now what does the future hold for business if
• 57:16
  you ask nine experts you're going to get ten answers bull market bear market inflation up inflation
• 57:22
  down honestly I just need a crystal ball but until we get one over 41,000 businesses have found
• 57:29
  the next best thing they future proved their operations with net sweet by oracle which is the number
• 57:34
  one cloud ERP imagine having your accounting your financial management your inventory your HR all
• 57:41
  flowing together in one fluid platform here's what makes net sweet different it gives you one
• 57:46
  source of truth for your business you get the visibility and control to make quick confident decisions
• 57:52
  while others are guessing you're working with real-time data insights forecasting you're basically
• 57:57
  looking into the future of your business with actionable data whether your company is earning
• 58:02
  millions or even hundreds of millions net sweet helps you respond to immediate challenges and helps
• 58:08
  you grab your biggest opportunities and speaking of opportunities they put together the CFO's guide
• 58:13
  to AI and machine learning and net sweet dot com slash Scott clary this is the playbook for
• 58:19
  understanding how to use AI for your business the guide is free go to net sweet dot com slash
• 58:25
  Scott clary that is net sweet dot com slash Scott clary you a lot of your work centers around
• 58:32
  relationship patterns being hard to break do you think that there is some times where a mistake
• 58:43
  a betrayal cheating is that not a pattern or is it the sign of something in the future that
• 58:51
  people should be more worried about it is true that the best predictor of future behaviors past
• 58:56
  behavior right it's like once someone does something you just know like they have the capacity for
• 59:03
  it right it's an option whereas you may feel like before that it was not an option to be considered
• 59:10
  so it can be sometimes you discover and I've worked with clients who have actually never been
• 59:19
  faithful it's just now they got caught right and they you know people who are transparent
• 59:26
  with me will say I'm not sure I can be like some people before marriage and during marriage
• 59:34
  just always had people on the side who knew or didn't know they were married um and so
• 59:41
  you know now that it comes to light they're having to grapple with uh like do I want to even try
• 59:51
  and do I believe I can you know you would think you know you'd want people to contemplate that
• 59:55
  before marriage but something for sure right and so now they're really thinking about you know can I
• 1:00:01
  really say with confidence that the rest of my life I'm going to be with this one person
• 1:00:07
  okay so it is important for for people to interrogate like do you actually want to be married
• 1:00:14
  if this is what this person's idea of marriage is of course some people are in a marriage where
• 1:00:19
  it's open and they just have the rules of as long as they're not at my house or whatever it is
• 1:00:24
  then like you know you can be with one of those people but for this person you know for them
• 1:00:30
  the commitment the covenant was this and you knew that right yeah oh um yeah having to really
• 1:00:38
  have some some both engagement truth telling with yourself but also learning new skills so you know
• 1:00:46
  with some people have them look back of like what are the pathways that often lead to the cheating
• 1:00:52
  so you can cut some of that stuff on off that happens earlier right so like if you're in the coffee
• 1:00:59
  shop innocently flirting with people right but often that is to have the results of like
• 1:01:04
  exchanging numbers or social media or you know so all those things you may say like I didn't do
• 1:01:10
  anything but it's leading somewhere right yeah and I think that you know on both sides of a broken
• 1:01:16
  relationship for both people who's always two people involved in a broken relationship um all the
• 1:01:22
  work you're talking about it's going to do two things for somebody who is a who is a cheater or
• 1:01:28
  somebody who betrays trust they're probably going to understand a little bit better why they're
• 1:01:31
  doing it and maybe that's the work that you're talking about in your book can actually help them
• 1:01:36
  stop doing it and on the flip side the person that is getting betrayed or cheated on or hurt
• 1:01:42
  now they're going to have the self worth and they're going to have the confidence I would assume
• 1:01:47
  to make the right decision about that person and potentially be with somebody who does
• 1:01:52
  honor what they want so on both sides right the work is for everybody and sometimes you know I say
• 1:02:00
  sometimes even if a relationship ends it could be a win for both people that is a painful experience
• 1:02:07
  but you can both grow in the aftermath and land on the other side as better people and better
• 1:02:12
  partners yeah I think that most people too who are cheating betraying assholes I think deep down
• 1:02:21
  they actually want to understand why they act the way they after why they're triggered or why
• 1:02:25
  they do the things they want to do and I think that they just have a hard time understanding where to
• 1:02:29
  even start the self work because I don't think most people outside of like some edge cases I don't
• 1:02:37
  think most people wake up every day and want to hurt someone right I want to know obviously you're
• 1:02:41
  not even thinking about the other person right it's not like I'm going here to hurt you they're
• 1:02:48
  usually not wanting that person to find out often it is a way of feeding the ego of feeling like
• 1:02:55
  here's this person who admires me or who seems to be into me and like there's no emotional
• 1:03:01
  labor involved right we can just show up meet up somewhere have this encounter and it's like
• 1:03:08
  all joy and no labor right then they associate home with like the labor of family and marriage and
• 1:03:17
  all of those things and you know some particular some boys and men grew up being told that like
• 1:03:26
  the number that you have is the reflection of your value at worth right more is that the enjoyment
• 1:03:35
  is actually not even so much the physical and sexual intimacy but the conquest right of like I got
• 1:03:44
  this one I so that's why they may put you in another category like once you're you said I do
• 1:03:49
  they're like okay I got them like put them over there right now who am I gonna get yeah
• 1:03:55
  and I think that I've heard this before I mean I know that a lot of your work focuses on
• 1:03:59
  relationships and that's that's a really important piece of everyone's life obviously but
• 1:04:04
  I've also heard that you know I wouldn't do business with somebody to cheat on their wife because
• 1:04:09
  if they can cheat on their wife then how do I know they're going to be loyal to me as a business
• 1:04:14
  partner if you're already hurting the person who's the most important person in the world to you
• 1:04:18
  right so yeah that's a good point we say like character integrity and also I should say the word
• 1:04:25
  discipline you know it takes off discipline to say I'm gonna say no to this temporary pleasure
• 1:04:35
  because my priority is this like long term yeah value what would be what would be one idea or one
• 1:04:44
  you can answer this one of two ways I would say one important idea from the book that I didn't
• 1:04:49
  ask you about that I should have that you want to leave with the audience or also it could just be
• 1:04:55
  the most important takeaway from the book that you think the audience should know that if they read
• 1:04:59
  the whole book and they only take one thing away what it would be yeah so I think an important
• 1:05:07
  aspect of the book that we didn't touch on is a chapter on how to release someone who doesn't love
• 1:05:15
  you and many people spend months if not years waiting for someone to choose them and you know
• 1:05:26
  holding on to this like fantasy or dream that one day it will happen and so you know it's important
• 1:05:35
  you're kind of the first step in that process I talk about is to recognize the truth which is you
• 1:05:41
  don't have to release them because they're already gone and they're already not yours so this idea
• 1:05:46
  like how am I gonna let them go it's like they're not with you yeah so uh and to know we're putting
• 1:05:55
  our lives on hold you know there could be people who would either love to be your friend if it's
• 1:06:00
  a friend love to be your partner um but because you're so tied up in this idea of who you thought it
• 1:06:07
  was gonna be and when you thought it was gonna be that you're like missing your life and so
• 1:06:14
  we also want to look at in those circumstances if that's a pattern or a cycle uh like why do I
• 1:06:20
  keep picking people who don't pick me or why do I keep picking people that aren't available um it may
• 1:06:26
  be that we're emotionally unavailable and so then I can pick people who are otherwise distracted
• 1:06:34
  and I never have to deal with actual intimacy and connection that's tough for people to come to
• 1:06:40
  terms with yes yeah it's easier to like keep trying that maybe like rest this way you're
• 1:06:46
  sending this message or do this thing so again that reminder of you're already enough
• 1:06:53
  you're enough and the people who align with you who value you will see that and desire
• 1:07:00
  mutual connection with you instead of you always being the pursuer when you do this self work
• 1:07:07
  the first step all of this becomes I'm assuming a lot easier to see
• 1:07:11
  yes when you begin to take care of yourself and not abandon yourself then everything flows from
• 1:07:19
  that then I'm like grounded in truth um grounded in compassion for myself so I want to not only
• 1:07:26
  choose people but I want to act in a way that honors my values and my truth amazing where can people
• 1:07:35
  go to connect with you um when this drops I think the book will be available wherever you can get
• 1:07:40
  books so Amazon and probably every other bookstore in the world but I'll put the I'll put the link in
• 1:07:46
  the show notes um working people connect with you what else do you want to know about your work
• 1:07:51
  what you're working on outside of this yes absolutely so uh please connect with me if you're on
• 1:07:57
  social media uh on Instagram it's dr dr dr period tamah t-h-e-m-a uh my website is dr tamah.com
• 1:08:08
  and the books are not only everywhere that books are sold but I was glad to also do the audio version
• 1:08:14
  of the book so if you prefer to listen instead of like sitting there reading it you can have that
• 1:08:19
  and uh the book that came before this one is called homecoming uh and so that's for people who
• 1:08:26
  have experienced any form of trauma childhood or otherwise uh you can look at that work as well
• 1:08:32
  to help you to heal amazing thank you I want to ask one last question this has been phenomenal
• 1:08:38
  and the last question I'd like to ask because you've you've given over a lot today but also in your
• 1:08:44
  life you've had a lot of sort of insight wisdom experience and of all the things that you've learned
• 1:08:50
  in your life let's pretend that you can only pass one of those lessons onto your kids because it's
• 1:08:55
  the most important lesson it could be about business life it could be about trauma healing anything
• 1:09:01
  it doesn't matter the thing that's most important to you you want to pass on to your kids what would
• 1:09:05
  that lesson be and why yeah I would want my kids to live from a place of sacredness so when you treat
• 1:09:17
  yourself as though you are sacred that will be that you honor yourself and value yourself and then
• 1:09:25
  you build relationships and you treat other people in a sacred way and then larger than that because
• 1:09:33
  I am you know one of those dreamers want to change the world you know if I have ideas about seeing
• 1:09:39
  humanity in a sacred way then whatever work I choose to do for me it becomes like an act of
• 1:09:47
  ministry or service or collective care and so I would say be sacred and live sacredly