Latest / Graymalkin Lane the podcast / the Trial of Whirlwind! Featuring Derek Nichols, Num1, Shawn Porett, Justin Kosmic, and Daniel Gilford!

Transcript

the Trial of Whirlwind! Featuring Derek Nichols, Num1, Shawn Porett, Justin Kosmic, and Daniel Gilford! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

0:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Not every mutant wants to be on the X-Men, and of those who don't, not every mutant wants to fight the X-Men.
0:14
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, as I research the character of Warlwind, I have a weird realization.
0:19
[SPEAKER_02]: David Cannon is kind of living Charles Xavier's dream.
0:23
[SPEAKER_02]: He's living his best mutant life, it's part of his daily existence, but not like the defining attribute as he lives among other supervillains in mainstream society.
0:32
[SPEAKER_02]: He's kind of like the ass or puff-outer or the given even mentalo.
0:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Other prominent criminals who never seem to quite enter the mutant orbit with any consistency.
0:41
[SPEAKER_02]: They're living among humans, quote unquote, passing, or living an integrated life-free from judgment.
0:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Now don't get me wrong.
0:48
[SPEAKER_02]: David Cannon is a raging murderous stalker.
0:52
[SPEAKER_02]: horrible person.
0:53
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just where we're gonna put that out there up front.
0:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You can call bias in the jury if you like, but when it comes to being a mutant, listen to his thoughts on cracoa.
1:01
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of good that Adobe wins some big it with a nuke decides your little island is too big for its breaches and you can keep your amnesty.
1:09
[SPEAKER_02]: You can keep your cracoa.
1:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Most books don't even know I'm immune.
1:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Didn't that's how I like it?
1:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't need a community to watch my back.
1:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Like all that identity crap doesn't just pin a target on it.
1:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Have fun when they come for you X-holes.
1:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be over here.
1:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be over here, stay in a live.
1:27
[SPEAKER_02]: X-holes is amazing.
1:29
[SPEAKER_02]: That is not a book I need to read, however.
1:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So while we don't often see David Cannon, the whirlwind in X-books, he has been targeted by the Office of National Emergency before he was one of the one ninety-eight keeping his powers on M-Day.
1:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're going to talk all about him today, because here we go.
1:47
[SPEAKER_02]: We opened this month with the introduction of whirlwind to the show in that crazy story from the Avengers script read, and now we're here to put him on trial.
1:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the trial of David Cannon, who goes by whirlwind, and his original codename, believe it or not, is the human top.
2:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I am pleased to welcome an esteemed jury of my peers, some of my very favorite people to hang out with.
2:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me have you introduce yourselves with your pronouns and tell us your preliminary thoughts on what you love or do not love about the whirlwind aka the human top.
2:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me welcome Derek Nichols who showed up in full whirlwind cosplay on camera everybody.
2:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure, sure.
2:28
[SPEAKER_03]: So hi, I'm Derek Nichols.
2:30
[SPEAKER_03]: My parents were he day and I am the reason why I dressed up as him is not the pseudo clan like helmet, but that he he exposes his nipples and that's a guy I can really get behind.
2:42
[SPEAKER_03]: So visually he's very interesting to me.
2:45
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's that's all I can say about why I like him as a character.
2:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you go through his costume gallery?
2:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you have a favorite?
2:51
[SPEAKER_03]: The one with where he doesn't have the chain mail where his skin is actually exposed.
2:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You love a sexy cosplay look.
2:56
[SPEAKER_03]: I sure do.
2:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
2:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me also welcome my friend Daniel Gilford, who just got to beat world wind up on my show in our script read earlier this month.
3:04
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
3:05
[SPEAKER_04]: And my impression, I'm sorry, I'm Daniel Gilford.
3:07
[SPEAKER_04]: He they my impression of world wind is that he just has an excellent color.
3:12
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I love the green.
3:13
[SPEAKER_04]: The green is just like it's working for me.
3:15
[SPEAKER_04]: It's very villainous.
3:17
[SPEAKER_04]: It's very forward.
3:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Green and purple are always super villain colors.
3:20
[SPEAKER_02]: He also welcomed the lovely Sean Perrette, the voice of Hercules to the show.
3:24
[SPEAKER_02]: We have Hercules and Thor in the same episode with Yellow Jacket.
3:28
[SPEAKER_02]: What the fuck is Yellow Jacket doing here?
3:31
[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm Sean Perrette today.
3:33
[SPEAKER_05]: I just legally changed my name to Sean Pirouet because of a whirlwind and he they and I'm excited to be here.
3:40
[SPEAKER_05]: So it was Hercules.
3:42
[SPEAKER_05]: What are your thoughts on whirlwind initially, Sean?
3:44
[SPEAKER_05]: He's an asshole, but I had no idea how many outfits he've had over the years.
3:48
[SPEAKER_05]: He really opened my eyes, Chad.
3:49
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm excited to talk about these looks.
3:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so fun to take these weird characters and become an expert in them.
3:54
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my favorite journey.
3:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me also welcome Jay Cosmic back to the show.
3:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Jay.
3:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, glad to be back.
4:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So I am Justin Cosmic, online I go by Jay Cosmic with the K and my pronouns are he, him and his.
4:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And what I like most about whirlwind is how striking his appearances.
4:11
[SPEAKER_01]: He stands out, you know, who he is, especially in his classic costume with the big green helmet and the blades on his wrist.
4:16
[SPEAKER_01]: My introduction to him was the Iron Man cartoons, so when I got into comics, I recognized him right away.
4:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I'm not saying this costumes are good.
4:23
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just very distinct in his appearance as there's not much likable about him as a character.
4:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And let me also last but not least, welcome the incredible num one back to the show.
4:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Jay Cosmic, by the way, does the voice of havoc, and num one has been the voice of Venus most recently?
4:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone, I'm them on, I go by faith them.
4:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited to be here.
4:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It's my first trial.
4:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Gosh.
4:46
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to win.
4:47
[SPEAKER_00]: What a menace.
4:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
4:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I learned something new actually.
4:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't really aware that he was in youth.
4:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm very excited to learn this.
4:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Very disappointed in his behavior.
4:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Before I invited you to this trial, what was your level of familiarity with this character?
5:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Very surface level.
5:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I had known about him as a villain.
5:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I had seen him in spots.
5:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I was also like, yeah, whatever.
5:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really care about you.
5:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Gross.
5:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm like, oh, yeah.
5:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Gross!
5:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was definitely the Iron Man cartoon was the first introduction and he was on that like road road list of Iron Man villains.
5:22
[SPEAKER_03]: So again, connected when I saw him in the comics.
5:25
[SPEAKER_03]: He was always like in the background in a lot of I think like even like civil war or some other comics that I was reading.
5:31
[SPEAKER_03]: He's always one of those villains that like stands out just the way he looks.
5:34
[SPEAKER_03]: So it was always kind of fun to see him on the page and storm being one of my favorite characters anything associated with the wind kind of draws my attention to.
5:42
[SPEAKER_03]: So
5:43
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so I'm a trained meteorologist, so this character really stands out to me as it's you know, it's whirlwind impression, but my first experience with the human top was actually through the silver age because I was listening to the Marvel by the month podcast and they were talking about his silver age appearances and that sort of my first exposure to the character.
6:02
[SPEAKER_05]: But I remember when we were in a Minnesota, I was trying to remember his name and you were making fun of me because I could not remember his name.
6:07
[SPEAKER_05]: So that sums up how much I know about this character.
6:09
[SPEAKER_05]: That was a really fun moment though.
6:11
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, no, no, no, no, no.
6:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Hurray, Mr. and Jay Cosmic, the human top himself.
6:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I haven't had any complaints, but outside of the Ironman cartoon, I did recognize Roland from the Perez Avengers book where he basically thwarted the team when there was like too many members, and then outside of that, I'm just seeing him randomly make appearances here and there, like dark rain, like Derek mentioned, Civil War,
6:44
[SPEAKER_01]: he was just a kind of in the background like more so a lackey than a leader although looking to the character for this trial my impression of him was he was more of an Ironman villain learning he's more you know not to spoil too much and man was was definitely eye-opening and also did not know he was a mutant too so
7:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
7:03
[SPEAKER_02]: My first exposure to this character, I'm going back to high school when I worked in the comic book shop, and I loved the old sixties, silver age shits.
7:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've mentioned this on the show a bunch of times, but the old Hank Pym and man series from the sixties has some of the dumbest, best super villains of all time.
7:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I love every one of them with my whole heart, and that's where we first meet this guy.
7:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of started with the beginning, but I've never done a full read through.
7:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I've also talked about how I used to write Marvel's supervillain survivor episodes online.
7:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Whirlwind is a character I used in at one of those before.
7:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So I remember researching a him a long time ago, but prepping for trials is always a very different journey.
7:36
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's begin at the beginning and meet the unbeatable human top.
7:40
[SPEAKER_02]: One of Marvel's earliest mutants.
7:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's correct.
7:44
[SPEAKER_02]: From tales to astonished, fifty and fifty one in nineteen sixty three.
7:48
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a Stanley Jack Kirby character who debuted around the same time that the X-Men first came out.
7:54
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a man with a conical head, a spinning through the room, illustrated in green swirling lines, his arms in the air like he's in a production of Swan Lake.
8:02
[SPEAKER_02]: But he's there to rob a jewelry store.
8:04
[SPEAKER_02]: He spins around the wasp and through the legs of giant man, who is too big to get through the door, by the way.
8:10
[SPEAKER_02]: His cover logo even has the word top in swirling letters.
8:14
[SPEAKER_02]: It's great.
8:15
[SPEAKER_02]: On the splash page, the top is drawn as almost a swirly laser, one-like giant man can't quite grasp.
8:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're almost picturing your superheroes on like a pinball board with a really fast spinny top just swirl it all around and they can't quite grab it.
8:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Page one narration, first page, first comic book with this guy.
8:33
[SPEAKER_02]: In every century, some humans are born with fantastic talents.
8:36
[SPEAKER_02]: One prime example is Dave Cannon, who's amazing ability to whirl around a great speed is the basis for our astonishing tale.
8:43
[SPEAKER_02]: A young David impresses the kids in his school by spinning around, but he's also a little jerk.
8:48
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a bully.
8:49
[SPEAKER_02]: He makes the kids give him lunch money.
8:51
[SPEAKER_02]: He steals what he wants.
8:52
[SPEAKER_02]: He evades the cops.
8:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And they later learn they have to catch him with a net.
8:56
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is when he's still a child, by the way.
8:58
[SPEAKER_02]: As the years roll by, Dave Cannon used his superhuman spinning ability.
9:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And every way he could.
9:03
[SPEAKER_02]: He became a circus performer.
9:05
[SPEAKER_02]: professional wrestler, and then he found a more lucrative source of income.
9:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it ice skating, I wonder?
9:12
[SPEAKER_02]: He learned how to make himself look bad to make others bet against him as a criminal in the criminal syndicates.
9:18
[SPEAKER_02]: He'd bet on a match and win a portion of the proceeds after he won.
9:22
[SPEAKER_02]: So two things right away.
9:23
[SPEAKER_02]: First this guy cannot fucking hold still.
9:25
[SPEAKER_02]: He has one of the most ADHD characters in comic books easily.
9:28
[SPEAKER_02]: He gets obsessed with a singular idea in that very ADHD way, but he's also a huge narcissist and he goes at it full force and then he's off to the next thing.
9:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm guessing quick silver level of like racing thoughts in his interior world though it never quite says that on the page about him.
9:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Second, this guy wants what he wants when he wants and he won't stop until he gets it.
9:48
[SPEAKER_02]: He is obsessed and he never forgets.
9:51
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got a deeply cruel streak as you'll soon see.
9:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So, David Cannon designed a costume for himself and he starts a life of crime.
9:58
[SPEAKER_02]: He puts on a little green number with swirly wind lines all over it and a conical helmet that just gives condom no matter how much you don't want to think about it.
10:06
[SPEAKER_02]: But also a little bit like Hood, right?
10:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's an uncomfortable way of times.
10:11
[SPEAKER_02]: He picks the code name the human top.
10:13
[SPEAKER_02]: and the newspaper's react, Berler spins way to freedom, spinning the criminal in new fantastic robbery.
10:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Police dragnet fails to stop spinning robber, whirling felon strikes against human top, named as public enemy number one by authorities.
10:27
[SPEAKER_02]: No one knows his true identity, and so he plans a big robbery at Danley's department store, and that's how you know it's
10:35
[SPEAKER_02]: There it is there to steal their weekly payroll.
10:38
[SPEAKER_02]: The human top starts out as a rather impressive foe for Henry Pym in his giant man form.
10:43
[SPEAKER_02]: This is after the early eight man days and Janet Van Dynes here as the wasp.
10:47
[SPEAKER_02]: He humiliates Pym right and left by spinning around the city easily evading the giant man.
10:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And in his next few appearances, he learns how to use his powers to make himself fly for short bursts, which is something he can do much more extensively later.
11:00
[SPEAKER_02]: He also takes a growth serum, like the pin particles, and becomes a literal giant human top for a minute in one of their fights.
11:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Who doesn't love a giant human top, you ask?
11:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And over the years, he fights Hank Pym over and over again.
11:14
[SPEAKER_02]: He hates this guy.
11:16
[SPEAKER_02]: He loves humiliating him.
11:17
[SPEAKER_02]: He loves kicking him while he's down.
11:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Pim has a handful of weird arc enemies, like Ultron, Egghead, and David Cannon is right on that list.
11:25
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the super obnoxious bully who just never quits.
11:27
[SPEAKER_02]: But, David, in time, is going to go more obsessed with the wasp, Janet Bandide.
11:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's analyze the early origins, motivations, and career of David Cannon.
11:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one, I know you have thoughts on this guy's little dancey dancey early appearances.
11:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is like the great power, like versus, you know, having responsibility kind of thing, I swear.
11:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, from my teacher days, if I have bought this little kid, it's been around to be a bully.
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't be so mad, but also like knowing like, oh, this kid is gonna be an awful little shit all the time.
12:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Sean, tell me your thoughts on Davies early career choices.
12:04
[SPEAKER_05]: He's on a bad path like this is Dark Spider-Man basically like a Peter Parker and another dimension.
12:10
[SPEAKER_05]: The circus really paid off for him because he's very spray.
12:14
[SPEAKER_05]: He's very dancey.
12:15
[SPEAKER_05]: He spins on his head like I kind of help thinking like why is this man not the human bottom from the way he's like dancing about.
12:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh my god, I didn't even occur to me to crack a human boss.
12:26
[SPEAKER_02]: You're welcome.
12:27
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I invited me, loving for you.
12:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Excellent.
12:32
[SPEAKER_02]: We also have this kind of queer codeness to this character right from the beginning.
12:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that that's not the intent but when you ever read a male superhero fighting a villain and there's just a lot of something in the air and especially when one of the villains is swirling pirouette and dancing around while calling himself a top.
12:49
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just, it's very camping.
12:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe that's why it comes off as queer-coded, too.
12:53
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just silly.
12:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, all of the sixties villains are just silly.
12:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you're just spinning.
12:56
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's not like, now we have super heroes that have these crazy abilities and powers in this guy's just spinning.
13:02
[SPEAKER_03]: It's silly.
13:04
[SPEAKER_03]: The origins are silly.
13:05
[SPEAKER_03]: He needs the helmet to be able to do it, too.
13:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, he can't just start.
13:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he can, but he'll be injured.
13:10
[SPEAKER_03]: There's something that he can't breathe without the helmet.
13:13
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's a crucial piece to, like, his whole look in aesthetic.
13:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes people like to beat, why do you have to read queer into everything?
13:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, for all of my straight listeners and our friends out there, you like to spin and dance more than anything.
13:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So you cover yourself in swirly lines, and you peer what around on your toes, and you call yourself the human top, and you want to go fight a giant man.
13:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell me that that's not fair.
13:36
[SPEAKER_01]: My word.
13:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I just know Iceman would have had a witty quip for the human top, a la, by beast.
13:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey Google play, spinning around by Kylie Minogue.
13:47
[SPEAKER_04]: Really fascinated when you when you point it out that probably has ADHD and I'm a person who has like a lot of hyperactivity and a lot of sort of focus and obsession sometimes on certain aspects of things So I guess that's a way that I kind of relate to the character in this in this specific way and and I loved your sort of analogy there with with quick silver and and like the sort of thinking at this at this certain speed and how that changes the way you view other people
14:14
[SPEAKER_04]: I think one of the challenges when you have a superpower is like, okay, now you have this new identity and this new power that you're going to, and it changes your relationships with other people.
14:24
[SPEAKER_04]: Imagine if you're moving very, very quickly.
14:26
[SPEAKER_04]: It's sometimes hard to slow down and think about others.
14:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So we don't seek.
14:29
[SPEAKER_02]: cruelty.
14:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's going to come.
14:31
[SPEAKER_02]: This character is very cruel.
14:33
[SPEAKER_02]: But we see a single-mindedness.
14:34
[SPEAKER_02]: We see an obsession with performance and kind of flashiness.
14:38
[SPEAKER_02]: He loves attention.
14:40
[SPEAKER_02]: He wants what he wants.
14:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And he will again, not back down until it gets it.
14:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a variable level of narcissism here.
14:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Not in a Hank Pim kind of way.
14:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a unique kind of mart narcissism with a very bipolar tick.
14:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, in power man, an iron fist, one of six, we meet Bonnie Kay, a stuck up girl who had been stalked by whirlwind since high school.
15:00
[SPEAKER_02]: And he seemed mostly interested in her because she was not interested in him, but once he wants something, he never gives up, so he goes to a classroom union.
15:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Just what is it, Dave, about me?
15:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Am I so special that you can't let go of this fixation?
15:15
[SPEAKER_02]: We really are from two different worlds you know, and he says, that's just it.
15:19
[SPEAKER_02]: See, I was born hungry in a hungry neighborhood.
15:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I started with nothing.
15:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yet I've been able to get whatever I wanted.
15:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Money, respect, and everything else except someone like you.
15:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And she says, all this time, it was never really me at all.
15:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a matter of pride.
15:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because I'm not some lovesick loser.
15:40
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm whirlwind.
15:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I happen to get it craving for something, it's mine.
15:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, uh, no one has to read the latter part of this line for me, please.
15:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Not this time, David.
15:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a criminal man.
15:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but I am a prince of criminal menaces.
15:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So after he meets the wasp, maybe it's because she's just Pim's girl or because she's rich or because she doesn't want him or because she reminds him of Bonnie, but he just doesn't quit.
16:08
[SPEAKER_02]: He's obsessed.
16:09
[SPEAKER_02]: He kidnapped Siri does all kinds of fantasies.
16:11
[SPEAKER_02]: He tries to convince her.
16:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be your boyfriend instead.
16:14
[SPEAKER_02]: She's not interested.
16:15
[SPEAKER_02]: She marries Hank.
16:16
[SPEAKER_02]: He poses his her chauffeur for all just to like work for them and drive her around.
16:21
[SPEAKER_02]: He tries to kidnap her from the hospital when she's in a coma.
16:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Koma, he attacks her at her fashion company again and again, modern history.
16:28
[SPEAKER_02]: He's even attacked her daughter, Nadia, who's actually Hank Pim's daughter.
16:31
[SPEAKER_02]: She's also lost.
16:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry about it.
16:32
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a complicated story.
16:34
[SPEAKER_02]: He says he'll have to beat her up until she loves him back.
16:37
[SPEAKER_02]: He's tried to kill her multiple times for not loving him.
16:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, maybe he just wants the attention, but then we get to the early two thousands and there's a story everybody where he hires a prostitute.
16:48
[SPEAKER_02]: makes her dress like the was, and then beats her up before killing her.
16:52
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the same infamous issue where Hank Pym is climbing between Janet Van Dines boobs, like dripping in some sort of fluid as she finishes orgasming on the page.
17:03
[SPEAKER_02]: They've edited that in later copies, but this is a wild comic book in our history.
17:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I don't content everybody.
17:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't warn you.
17:11
[SPEAKER_02]: This guy, if you're talking about human tops for a while, so that was the trigger.
17:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Louis is a whole different statement.
17:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm just saying.
17:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So this guy has gives major insult stalker energy.
17:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's really fun to read because he's
17:26
[SPEAKER_02]: just so awful, but other times it really turns your stomach when it crosses a certain line.
17:31
[SPEAKER_02]: But regardless, he is a career supervillain.
17:33
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll find him robbing banks, taking jobs and gigs, murdering people for hire, or hunting down superheroes on his own.
17:41
[SPEAKER_02]: He's often part of the masters of evil.
17:43
[SPEAKER_02]: He's been part of the army of evil, the lethal Legion, and like six or seven little off villain groups.
17:49
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just like a few steps underneath the big leagues.
17:52
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a credible threat, but he's not the team leader.
17:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And there are so many images of him by the way at weapons, expos, or hanging out on the background of the bar with no name, playing pool or poker and drinking in that full costume with his dumb hat on.
18:05
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know how that works.
18:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's talk about this guy's motivations and his relationship to the wasp.
18:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Derek, do you want to talk about the Bonnie K story?
18:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you'll be sharing stories.
18:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it's later, too.
18:15
[SPEAKER_03]: This woman was so harassed so off so much that she had a higher iron fist to come in like protector or escort her to her high school reunion then whirlwind and nine fist are fighting and then body like helps whirlwind escape I guess looks you heard that right she hired iron fist to escort her to her high school reunion because she knew her stalker would be there crazy story
18:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's hear some of your thoughts on the wasp relationship.
18:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Dan, you've been yellow jacket in the script reads as you're learning these characters a little bit.
18:44
[SPEAKER_02]: What are your thoughts on the whirlwind obsession here?
18:46
[SPEAKER_04]: It's challenging.
18:47
[SPEAKER_04]: I think to read sometimes you're just like, oh, I care about these characters.
18:51
[SPEAKER_04]: I care especially, I think wasp is a character that kind of has broken through a little bit more than the human top.
18:57
[SPEAKER_04]: It's frustrating to see this person completely go after a character you like and then not seemingly facing long-term consequences as it were.
19:06
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you have Ant-Man or I guess yellow jacket at that point is like, you know, feeding up on him, but that's pretty much the only pushback you ever faces.
19:14
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's not like when yellow jacket is like kind of not in your corner for justice, that is like indicative that you're doing.
19:21
[SPEAKER_04]: good thing.
19:21
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I really struggle with this, this portrayal of a whirlwind as like this stalker.
19:27
[SPEAKER_04]: It's disturbing to watch.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Knowing he's been a jerk since childhood and Hank being his punching bag kind of feels self-fulfilling with Hank feeling the role as the nerd who had as much lunch money stolen, but also wasp feels like someone who has viewed as a prize like he doesn't view her as a person, but has an aspiration.
19:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Just seems very consistent that he views other people as objects and has no feelings for anybody but himself.
19:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of interesting to kind of learning how much he is tied to the Wasp and Atman, because, you know, initially seeing notes like, oh, why didn't you appear in the movies?
19:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like seeing how, I know not all men, but how some men are with women and not taking know.
20:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just kind of like, maybe it's a good thing he didn't appear in the movies.
20:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we've all had like the breakup, right?
20:10
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like the bad breakup.
20:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So imagine, I mean, we get Bonnie saying, you're a criminal medicine.
20:16
[SPEAKER_02]: He goes, okay, but I'm the Prince of Criminal Medices.
20:19
[SPEAKER_02]: You say you're a creep get out of my life music.
20:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I'm the best creep you've ever had babe like it's giving that like I won't take no for an answer energy clearly about us, but no one what are your thoughts on this very thinly veiled ego on this man it's funny because like
20:35
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not an a-list villain in any way, but like I feel like also like you recognize that you're in an idiot, right?
20:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is dumb.
20:42
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, well, I'm gonna be the best out of that, guys.
20:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's ridiculous.
20:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And also like he's very, like he knows, like he's not like a, like a oblivious criminal.
20:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he's very knowledgeable, like where to go and like how to be a criminal.
20:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's one of the things where I'm like, you know, like what you should be doing here?
20:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are you being dumb right now?
21:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah.
21:03
[SPEAKER_02]: That story of the hiring the prostitute, it's treated so callously.
21:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where comics go wrong.
21:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Violence toward women is not a lot device.
21:14
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not something to be treated lightly or in a funny way.
21:18
[SPEAKER_02]: When you can tell certain stories, you get to that line on the meter.
21:22
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right at the middle spot.
21:23
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the right amount of room.
21:24
[SPEAKER_02]: But you take it one line above that and it's gone too far.
21:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And this one goes about six lines above that.
21:30
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a deeply uncomfortable story.
21:32
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fridging in the worst way.
21:33
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a nameless character who the reader thinks deserves violence somehow.
21:37
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not an easy thing to talk about.
21:39
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll also take this piece very seriously for a moment, but women and queer people and all kinds of people deal with quote unquote stalkers in their life.
21:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Domestic violence and stalking are not things to be taken lightly.
21:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Call the police, get support, make sure you're protected.
21:54
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a very dangerous thing to go through.
21:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting his obsession with Jan, I almost wonder if it's more about Hank.
22:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, we get this mentality of him just being obsessed with whatever he's obsessed with, but it's almost like he wants Hank's attention.
22:07
[SPEAKER_02]: In a way that a lot of supervillains are written like, you know, green goblins obsessed with Spider-Man's attention, et cetera.
22:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we get that kind of, I'm obsessed with you energy that's very odd, red skull with Captain America for those that have joined me for recent red skull conversations on my show.
22:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a there's some deeply uncomfortable energy there.
22:24
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so a few years ago I had a rep reporting to me who had a stalker so seeing kind of the wear and tear it took on her and just she would tell me like sometimes she would just go to Walmart and we shopping in this guy would show up randomly.
22:36
[SPEAKER_05]: So I think Marvel has this really good chance of telling an actual story about the toll this could take on a woman to have a stalker or anybody like you said.
22:45
[SPEAKER_05]: But I feel like they kind of just turn it into a joke in a way.
22:48
[SPEAKER_05]: I feel like there's some heavy hitting like stories we could tell with Wasp and her stalker that I would like Marvel to get into.
22:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's some interesting ones.
22:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to talk about that journey for her as we go through this a little bit too, because we're going to be mapping that out in the criminal trial.
23:01
[SPEAKER_02]: By the way, the trial's not going to go well for this guy.
23:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, but we're still going to have fun to the ridiculously campy ridiculously well, well, well, well, dressed character in that it's his costume gallery is amazing.
23:13
[SPEAKER_02]: But we do want to give that a beat of seriousness here as we talk and then give ourselves permission to have fun in the rest of this.
23:20
[SPEAKER_02]: But please, if you need support, please find support.
23:22
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also the kind of stalking, by the way, where it's like a person who's obsessed with a celebrity.
23:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I know a lot of people who are public figures, particularly women, can go through this, where imagine someone getting a job to work directly for you, so they can keep their eye on you, but also they've threatened rape and kidnapping.
23:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I got wild stories that we're going to treat lately, but wow.
23:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So I need to get the process of that background check.
23:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Charles, he's Charles the chauffeur.
23:49
[SPEAKER_02]: That's all you need to know.
23:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So whirlwind has some crazy costumes.
23:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We started with that swirly conical all green look and then a version with a yellow helmet and boots.
23:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we get his classic sexy harness top, which Derek Nichols will be gratuitously posting all over the internet as we release this.
24:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm assuming and we're hoping for
24:07
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got the full face covering that looks like the head of the miss like a head of a missile almost like ballistic in a way and then there's the version with the chain mail over his chest and then we had some buzz saws or occasionally blades to his wrists and then the open mouth green all white look and then he gets a full body armor for like three or four different forms plus the Ironman armor version but the best remains the sexy hardest look.
24:31
[SPEAKER_02]: His powers are also basically to spin around really fast while like rotating his body.
24:35
[SPEAKER_02]: He does this to spin to go fast along the ground to fly.
24:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a shocking number of super powered characters whose power is to spin.
24:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Does anyone come to mind for you guys?
24:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Riptide.
24:47
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like the little carrot and bones off of him.
24:49
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like the ninja stars.
24:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Once Rollwin starts firing shuriken, it's over for Riptide.
24:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
24:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
24:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
24:55
[SPEAKER_02]: What he has busts saws.
24:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, there's the character Pure Wet.
24:59
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a literal, that was strong guys girlfriend if you remember her.
25:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's all kinds of super villains in both DC and Marvel who just spin around really fast.
25:06
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're named after a tornado, you probably are a replica of the Tasmanian double from the old nineties cartoons for those of us that.
25:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, watch that.
25:14
[SPEAKER_02]: In some recent appearances, he got reprogrammed by Hank Pim slash Ultron as a long story, and they figure out how to use his powers of vibration so fast that he can face through things.
25:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's some potential for this character in the way they experience kind of time and space, which when you add the hyper vibrational piece is an interesting thing as well.
25:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about his costumes first of all.
25:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Does anyone have any comments on his style or his weaponry?
25:43
[SPEAKER_02]: What style?
25:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That part, what's the hell?
25:47
[SPEAKER_01]: The chain mail look is the one that I picture when I think of Rwindum.
25:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It is the look that also got a Marvel legend.
25:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But I can't appreciate the shirtless harness look.
25:56
[SPEAKER_01]: His late nineties, two thousand's look at the silver helmets, like the green and the silver is probably my favorite though.
26:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very dragging us without the rings and he has wrist swords.
26:05
[SPEAKER_03]: I like his style.
26:08
[SPEAKER_03]: But the thing is that bothers me about his later looks like besides his first like when you think of fast characters it's usually it should be like sleek and like like they're moving quickly and aerodynamic and like to like weigh him down with chain mail and then add buzz sauce to it and then armor it just it seems like that would be a hindrance more than like help for his powers
26:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I like the green and white best is just because of the aerodynamic appearance.
26:34
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, his power is could be something very cool.
26:37
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, you know, one of the things that I love about storm is that her characters, powers are just so there's just a diversity of ways that you can use those powers.
26:46
[SPEAKER_04]: And I feel like with this character, you could have more wind pushing, you could have more whole things into them.
26:52
[SPEAKER_04]: It just seems like they kind of never get away from this.
26:54
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, he's just kind of spinning.
26:56
[SPEAKER_05]: I think they've done a decent job like developing his powers over the years.
26:59
[SPEAKER_05]: Like he starts off just like the tornado guy but then he eventually like flies and then he eventually can kind of phase in a way.
27:06
[SPEAKER_05]: So he still doesn't seem like a big threat though.
27:09
[SPEAKER_05]: I feel like there's just like one more push and then he's that big threat that he needs to be.
27:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like this is one of those things.
27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you should have gone to the executive and student learn how to use your powers better.
27:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
27:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
27:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a madness, but then also like you are progressing like, you know, other meetings, you know, normally do like, you know, evolving more like you don't get a secondary mutation or anything like you're kind of laying still, bro, like go to school and learn how to use your power.
27:35
[SPEAKER_00]: power is better.
27:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
27:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm almost wondering if there's like the way to amp him up, you know, like Fabian Cortez touches this guy, and can he kind of reverse flash energy a little bit, right?
27:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Does he become super fast?
27:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Can he manipulate things?
27:49
[SPEAKER_02]: That like phasing thing he gets in his most recent stuff under all youings pen is really interesting.
27:53
[SPEAKER_02]: But this naturally took us to the place I wanted to talk before we transition into the trial.
27:58
[SPEAKER_02]: What are your thoughts on world wins place in the world of mutants and the feelings he has about the X man or the X holes I mean and the curricula itself?
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's more of one of these things where it's like that internalized like I'm not one of you people like I don't want to deal with like the persecution and all of that.
28:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially like having survived like the, you know, M. Day and everything else.
28:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I think for him, it's like, look, I'm cool over here and not being associated with you guys.
28:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't do what's such an old.
28:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not over here, like fighting for my life in a danger room every five minutes.
28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very interesting.
28:30
[SPEAKER_00]: The competition, like in the beginning of this, we discussed this, you know, idea of like passing for him.
28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he's not a more lock or he's not like one of the X men.
28:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So like he can get away with like not being associated as one of those like bad mutants or anything.
28:44
[SPEAKER_00]: He's definitely a villain, but he sees himself as part of the general public.
28:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I think his rejection of Krakow is very interesting as well, because after having survived Endan having survived all of this stuff, the idea of resurrection, I think would be something that is very appealing to him.
28:59
[SPEAKER_02]: If anything happens to me, but... Yeah, I feel like there's an early story for this guy that could be told that talks about Magneto trying to recruit him one time and how that went and how it really solidified his feelings about being quote unquote almost superior.
29:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to learn more of that kind of aspect of him because I think, too, it's like, there's such a difference for a mentorship there.
29:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, the brotherhood of mutants, like, you're really not going to, like, really join them full-time or anything.
29:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's so interesting that, like, conversation that he's like, non-good.
29:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to deal with mutants all the time.
29:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Or it's one of the things that's like, I don't want to get jumped by the exit every five minutes every time I go somewhere because they'd straight up jump people.
29:35
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not like the Avengers where they're hot.
29:37
[SPEAKER_00]: They're coordinated.
29:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's go back into the nineteen sixties and put this guy on the original brotherhood of evil mutants with mastermind the toad uh Wanda and Pietro First of all, how he do with those members of that team for Wanda
29:54
[SPEAKER_01]: You would honestly be the Jan of the brotherhood, like looking at his history, like just if he's on a team with the woman, I feel for her.
30:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he and Pietro would fight so much.
30:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Toad would drive him nuts.
30:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Who would he, who would you want to see him fight in the original X-Men?
30:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Of the original X-Men, probably Jean Grey.
30:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I just think it would be satisfying seeing her give him the beat down considering again how he views women as prizes.
30:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just kind of like seeing wasp kick us out a few times.
30:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Same satisfaction.
30:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's some fun things like ice man like spouts a bunch of snowballs at him.
30:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's right.
30:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Nice man.
30:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of the like hits got in the face or something.
30:34
[SPEAKER_01]: The human top versus the bottom.
30:39
[SPEAKER_03]: the passing conversation.
30:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there's this thing in queer for our queer community where like cis white gay men have that luxury and can like walk through world as a passing way.
30:50
[SPEAKER_03]: But the joke is on them and whirlwind because you're spinning around looking like a fucking tornado.
30:57
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you're not.
30:58
[SPEAKER_03]: passing.
30:59
[SPEAKER_03]: You think you can get away with all this, but you're part of the community.
31:03
[SPEAKER_03]: We all need to work together.
31:05
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like protecting each other.
31:06
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's like a parallel to that where like again, I fit into this this way gay group and like to see some of my peers like leaning into that or embrace that, especially in this time of federal chaos and state chaos or wherever you are.
31:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's unfortunate that like that's like the mentality that whirlwind and other people who pass.
31:26
[SPEAKER_02]: So go back to twenty ten.
31:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm working on the Marvel handbooks at the time and nobody asked me to.
31:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I've shared this on the show before, but I pitched four books to Marvel just to be like, Hey, you should let me write.
31:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It's always been a lifelong gold or write comics.
31:37
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the books I pitched and the pitch was red, but not accepted was a team called Dark X men before Dark X men was a thing.
31:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And Shinobi Shaws leading the team, there's some hold motivations, there's a whole team of people.
31:48
[SPEAKER_02]: But the story that I pitched opened on whirlwind, robbing a bank, and just being a shithead, like sexual harasser, too much people.
31:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So the X-Men break in, and Necrud just like fucking kicks his ass, rips his helmet off, rips the blades off his hand, and stabs him in both shoulders, and pins him to the ground before the cops come.
32:07
[SPEAKER_02]: That was the opening pages of my Dark X-Men pitch.
32:10
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how I feel about this guy, but I really like it, but the same time.
32:14
[SPEAKER_04]: So one of the things that I think this person needs is a family.
32:19
[SPEAKER_04]: He really is kind of like out there on his own.
32:21
[SPEAKER_04]: He's more of a more of a lone character that leads to a lot of his I think terrible behavior.
32:26
[SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't have someone that can hold him back or
32:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I mean, when we look at a character like back Tom or, or a juggernaut, you know, they have each other to support each other.
32:37
[SPEAKER_04]: There's characters out there that have someone that is willing to sort of pull them back to to reality when they start to step out of line.
32:44
[SPEAKER_04]: He needs a found family and he doesn't have that.
32:47
[SPEAKER_02]: When we go back to the early sixties and he's a mutant character, he has some sort of ability to stay out of the affairs of things, right?
32:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Back in the sixties, the sentinels were hunting down everybody.
32:56
[SPEAKER_02]: This guy does not get attacked by the friends of humanity.
32:59
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not getting people hunting him down.
33:00
[SPEAKER_02]: There's got to be a story there too, which is interesting.
33:03
[SPEAKER_05]: I think with a costume change, he would be a perfect nasty boy.
33:07
[SPEAKER_05]: because the nasty boys are all like kind of gay, but not really like they don't say it.
33:12
[SPEAKER_05]: But like he would totally fit with them the way they are, the way they're rude, the way they like hate everybody, he fits there.
33:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So we could have slab at the human top and ramrod all on the streets here.
33:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, my question before we transition to the trial.
33:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say this character.
33:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's the story.
33:33
[SPEAKER_02]: He's arrested for some bad shit.
33:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Valerie Cooper pulls him out of jail and puts him on an X-factor style Thunderbolts team.
33:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So we've got a group of mutant villains working for the government.
33:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's going to be a super fun story, right?
33:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Name one X-Men villain you would want to see on this team.
33:50
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to presume like forges in charge or havoc.
33:53
[SPEAKER_02]: It would of course be havoc in charge.
33:55
[SPEAKER_02]: But who do you want to see interact with this character on this team if I can have you each pick one person and Tasia because her what she does is what she does is a motivations are her own her motivations are her own yes Yeah, there's some really interesting power combo moves for those two as well that'd be fun
34:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I think another interesting power combo would be even with the blob, like bouncing off of him.
34:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So the top bouncing from Bob's belly.
34:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Those two could be obsessed.
34:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Those two could be best friends.
34:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I see.
34:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
34:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to go like classic brotherhood.
34:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I would want like me to like outline your power or someone.
34:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, you know, he would just like get on power.
34:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Those nerves is something in power.
34:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Like light his world went on fire.
34:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that would be really, really interesting.
34:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Fireworld is cool, but yeah, I think they would hate each other, which I love also.
34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, I feel like the classic members of a brotherhood team would be like, we've been mutant villains like way longer than you.
34:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And they would have to check him a lot.
34:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that would be very interesting.
34:54
[SPEAKER_02]: We also need like that one hokey, do good character that like really pisses whirlwind the fuck off, but they're really good at everything too.
35:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you know that like archetype I'm talking about?
35:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Who would that character be for this guy?
35:05
[SPEAKER_05]: So on our podcast, we just had a vote on who people would want to see come back in this one one like overwhelmingly.
35:11
[SPEAKER_05]: I would say that would be Santa Blaze bring her back to life, put her with whirlwind.
35:16
[SPEAKER_05]: She does everything better than him and she's gonna just keep on kicking his ass.
35:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Whirlwind only wants girls who don't want him, right?
35:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say see how much the fuck him so bad and he is not interested.
35:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I can see that.
35:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Daniel, do you want to add one?
35:32
[SPEAKER_04]: I was going to say Scarlett wish would be an interesting sort of parallel to him.
35:36
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that they would get out of each other's nerves.
35:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I think he would stalk her.
35:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm letting you have none of it.
35:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I love these discussions because we get to form a particular energy, right?
35:50
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got a good vision on the complexities of this character, such as they are, even though he's not the most in-depth explored.
35:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a lot of potential.
35:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know more about his childhood.
35:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know more about how he sees the world.
36:01
[SPEAKER_02]: We put him in some fun situations.
36:03
[SPEAKER_02]: He not only has a redemptive story, of course it would end badly, but he also has potential for some major relationships to form, because he doesn't have a lot of those outside Hank and Janet.
36:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess kind of relating to the brotherhood or mutant team up.
36:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I did see, um, I guess correlations with him and units the untouchable just because they both have that like, they can't be touched or caught very easily.
36:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like those two combined could be interesting.
36:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, vanisher mixed vanisher in there.
36:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a secret there for sure.
36:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, those two rubbing a bank or like he becomes like Sebastian Shaw's whipping boy like
36:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Get on your way into the Hellfire Club and it just never goes well.
36:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we're going to jump into the trial here.
36:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We are going to present five different trial points.
36:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Each jury member has been assigned one specific section to present a prosecution and a defense.
36:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And after each will have a brief discussion, every member of the jury will then be voting from their own perspective.
36:59
[SPEAKER_02]: From zero up to five zero means completely blame was an innocent three somewhere where we start to go.
37:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, there's some there's some fault here and five is like this person is evil evil.
37:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So we get to put those scales wherever we like.
37:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, tripod one.
37:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We are calling the human top
37:15
[SPEAKER_02]: The key issues here are tales to astonish fifty and fifty one fifty five sixty eight and sixty nine and amazing spider-man annual thirty seven part two.
37:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I signed a Sean Perrette here and I know you had fun reading these shot.
37:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I guarantee yes.
37:30
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
37:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Growing up, Davey Cannon learned that he was faster than other kids, and that he could take what he wanted, when he wanted it, and he was in trouble long before he turned a teen.
37:39
[SPEAKER_02]: As an adult, he designed a green conical costume, thinking of himself like a children's toy, the top, and called himself the human top.
37:46
[SPEAKER_02]: using the squirrel girl thing.
37:47
[SPEAKER_02]: That means he had powers of both human and top, but like the Spiny toy top, right?
37:51
[SPEAKER_02]: We already made the gay jokes.
37:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So he went on the crime spree until giant man and the wasp into being.
37:57
[SPEAKER_02]: They chased the human top through traffic, but he's unprepared for concrete that has been chewed through by ants.
38:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Giant man's anger increases consistently as he chases after the top who's rolling around and spinning on his own head and he escapes.
38:11
[SPEAKER_02]: After losing his temper at his own fan club, Hank pimmed the giant man.
38:16
[SPEAKER_02]: goes after the human top and catches him.
38:19
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we get this line, uh, Davy Cannon says, I let my spinning body talk for me.
38:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Never thought I could increase my whirling speed.
38:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you?
38:27
[SPEAKER_02]: There.
38:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm spinning it close to top speed now.
38:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Feels a little like a talking buzz saw doesn't it?
38:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And Hank gets a killer get killer lines too like, Sunday you're living in a fool's paradise.
38:39
[SPEAKER_02]: The world went out quips him every time.
38:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So so then he's embarrassing Hank Pim again and at one point he gets his foot stuck in an open manhole.
38:47
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a real part of the story everybody.
38:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Then he escapes with the defense plans for the new federal building and plans to sell them to the commies.
38:54
[SPEAKER_02]: It's nineteen sixty three.
38:56
[SPEAKER_02]: The way Hank finally defeats him by the way.
38:58
[SPEAKER_02]: He climbs up a building jumps down in front of the top.
39:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Punch his him and then traps him with glue gloves.
39:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you heard me correctly.
39:07
[SPEAKER_02]: He's stuck.
39:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm stuck on you whirlwind.
39:10
[SPEAKER_02]: But Davies back in just a few months.
39:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Giant man is showing footage of his fight with the human top to members of his fan club.
39:16
[SPEAKER_02]: They're back again.
39:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Cannon spins his way free from his cell and for the first the first thing he does is rob a bank.
39:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Then he puts on his costume and attacks Giant man on the wasp right there in Hank Pym's lab.
39:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Cannon rips off PIM's utility belt.
39:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Takes a pill to double his own size, which makes him spinny winds even stronger, and then he locks Hank PIM in the closet.
39:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he traps Wasp in a jar to hold her captive.
39:41
[SPEAKER_02]: What a sense of superiority it gives me to be twice the size of everyone else.
39:46
[SPEAKER_02]: He says, to be a giant among mere humans, my size and skill now make me the most formidable being of all, with the help of the ants, Hank soon escapes the closet again and attacks.
39:57
[SPEAKER_02]: He tries holding onto Cannon's wrists to stop him from whirling, but Cannon just spins him around instead.
40:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Cannon creates an entire fucking tornado, and then falls through the roof because the wasp had the termites chewed through it.
40:10
[SPEAKER_02]: That's twice we've got that gag with this character already.
40:13
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not revered it to normal size and gets arrested once again.
40:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Fast forward a little farther.
40:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Still alive, the human top flies a plane at giant man, crashing it, and PIM helps ensure the pilot of the ship remains alive, unaware that the pilot of the ship is David Kenton.
40:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So Hank PIM ends up knocked out, Cannon briefly considers crushing his skull, but instead decides to go to a lab where he's determined to learn how to fly.
40:35
[SPEAKER_02]: He designs himself a new costume that allows him to pump the exterior full of helium gas.
40:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Cannon finds a way to propel himself into the air, and he soon attacks Hank Pim, kidnaps the wasp, and places her on a cushion in his house.
40:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Awakened to your master, lovely one, and do not deceive yourself by false hopes.
40:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You've seen the last of giant men.
40:57
[SPEAKER_02]: From this moment on, you will serve me faithfully as you served your fallen hero, and she yells,
41:03
[SPEAKER_02]: You arrogant fiend, the only way I'll serve you is on a platter.
41:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Two giant man, and he says, ah ha, I admire your spirit, wasp, and he promises to show her that he can defeat Hank Pin once and for all.
41:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Surely when you've seen the ease with which I dispose of him, you will not question that I, the human top, am invincible among men, but only I am deserving of your loyalty, and perhaps one day, even of you a love,
41:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Soon Hank Pimentax.
41:29
[SPEAKER_02]: The human top activates a trap, wasp tries to stop him, so he slaps her across the face.
41:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
41:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Get back you fool.
41:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I've planned every detail of this moment down to the split second.
41:41
[SPEAKER_02]: It cannot be upset by your silly display of emotion.
41:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, by the way, Hank Pamed us this to her in the future.
41:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Also not cool.
41:48
[SPEAKER_02]: The narration tells us, if the human top had any admirers at all, he has certainly lost them by this ungalant behavior.
41:55
[SPEAKER_02]: No joke.
41:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Traps are activated, including a huge spinning buzz saw, then he tries freezing pin and ice, that ends up freezing himself, and the cops take him away.
42:04
[SPEAKER_02]: In an early prototype of his costume, the human top later fights Spider-Man, considering new code names, by the way.
42:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Cyclone, the green tornado, thick vortex, which I kind of love.
42:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Spidey suggests maybe you could go by a Wally Windbag, Mr. Skinny Guy.
42:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Dizzy Dan, the rotator, Mr. Scary go round, Major Maypole, Spider-Man never shuts up guys.
42:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Dave briefly tries the deadly Dervish pinwheel.
42:31
[SPEAKER_02]: He's getting defeated by getting dizzy by the way, and then he gets the idea for the code name whirlwind from Spider-Man.
42:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Shannon then forged a fake identity, took a job working for the Wasp as her personal chauffeur, and after she showed him the interior of Avengers Mansion, Cannon in a new costume, and with new name, whirlwind attacked, bursting through the wall, they're just to get to Pym, who now called himself Goliath.
42:52
[SPEAKER_02]: But Cannon used a spray to trap both Pym and Van Dyne and Ant-Size.
42:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Knowing the heroes didn't have their insect controlling abilities, he tossed the duo into an ant hill so that the ants could kill them.
43:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Then Canada planted a bomb in the mansion.
43:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It was while battling Captain America and Quicksilver, that canon realized he might be a mutant for the first time.
43:10
[SPEAKER_02]: The Avengers survived the bomb, whirlwind escapes, but he still has his chauffeur job dot dot dot.
43:16
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a long summary, but it's well worth the room.
43:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me turn it over to Sean for that.
43:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, sorry.
43:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Sean, pirouette.
43:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
43:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Call me by my proper name.
43:25
[SPEAKER_05]: In whirlwind's defense, it makes me think of what Obama just recently said.
43:29
[SPEAKER_05]: Every straight man should have a gay friend because this man, David, David, can and doesn't know how to talk to women.
43:35
[SPEAKER_05]: He doesn't know how to dress himself.
43:37
[SPEAKER_05]: I feel like a lot of his issues stem from maybe a mental block of like connecting with other people.
43:43
[SPEAKER_05]: Because he's still doing things with Jan where he's like he's trying to get her attention but in the wrong way he's like a kindergarten or you know I'm going to slap the girl I want to be with to get her attention.
43:54
[SPEAKER_05]: So there's a lot going on if he had gone to like the X mansion like we said earlier he would have worked through a lot of these issues and become a better person than he is.
44:02
[SPEAKER_05]: He just needs that tender love and care.
44:03
[SPEAKER_05]: But he is slapping woman.
44:06
[SPEAKER_05]: He is just a menace to society.
44:08
[SPEAKER_05]: He's a pretty awful person.
44:10
[SPEAKER_05]: So that defense was the best that I could come up with.
44:13
[SPEAKER_05]: I hate him.
44:17
[SPEAKER_05]: That the second outfit alone with the little yellow thing and like the ban, actually like the dime store ban.
44:22
[SPEAKER_05]: She outfit like just that alone.
44:24
[SPEAKER_05]: We should throw him in prison for like ten years.
44:27
[SPEAKER_02]: What was it like trying to read these old stories?
44:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you have some favorite moments?
44:31
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, it was definitely fun.
44:32
[SPEAKER_05]: I did like the kind of cheesiness of it.
44:35
[SPEAKER_05]: I like that we kind of see.
44:37
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, the spinning top made me laugh every time they showed it.
44:40
[SPEAKER_05]: He's literally like spinning on his head.
44:41
[SPEAKER_05]: But just the idea that he can't figure out who he is and keeps changing his outfits like really made me laugh.
44:48
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I know you, I mean, I love your poker face so much.
44:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my favorite thing.
44:52
[SPEAKER_02]: As I was doing through some of that history, you were getting triggered.
44:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to talk about your
45:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the whole like this crazy obsession and like just unhinged behavior for me.
45:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, bro, the first thing you do when you're like, okay, I've got this new job.
45:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna break in and just beat everybody up like that's wild.
45:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And then like, I don't think, like, I don't think, like, actually likes anybody, like, I think that's such an, like, institution-friendly, like, I like her.
45:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna be me to her.
45:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, I don't think, like, you like these, like, I don't really like, like, anyone.
45:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Cause you're just awful.
45:31
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Derek, there was a lot of gay at you endo in this early section.
45:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you comment on this early part?
45:36
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, I get.
45:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, now that, oh, Sean, I think Sean saying, like, he was trying to find himself.
45:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Now it kind of makes sense for the old beginning.
45:43
[SPEAKER_03]: You endo is, again, maybe he's doing a lot of experimentation, figuring things out, testing his body in new ways.
45:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I can empathize with that, I guess.
45:51
[SPEAKER_02]: When we move from a hijinks to violence towards women, that clearly shifts the dynamic.
45:57
[SPEAKER_02]: But to see a woman hit in an early comic book like that is really jarring.
46:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one, Fuck Mary Kill, Wally Windbag, Mr. Spinny Guy, Dizzy Dam.
46:07
[SPEAKER_00]: God dang it!
46:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Kill Wally Windbag.
46:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Fuck Dizzy Dan and Mary, Mr. Spiney.
46:14
[SPEAKER_02]: That's fair.
46:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Dirk Nichols of Fuck Mary Kill The Rotator.
46:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Scary Go Round and Major Maple.
46:21
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, that's easy.
46:23
[SPEAKER_03]: Kill Scary Go Round.
46:24
[SPEAKER_03]: Fuck Maple and then Mary Rotator.
46:27
[SPEAKER_03]: What?
46:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Now what I'm saying at, maybe I'll switch those last two.
46:33
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want your last name to be scary go round?
46:36
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it just sounds terrifying, but that would be like a horror film for me.
46:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Scary go round is like a human version of a fair school.
46:44
[SPEAKER_03]: The flow of that like Derek scary go around kind of is nice.
46:47
[SPEAKER_03]: I like it.
46:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like a fairs wheel.
46:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Last one for Sean, Fuck Mary Kill, Mr. Cyclone, Vic Vortex, and the deadly dervish.
46:56
[SPEAKER_05]: Hmm, that's hard.
46:58
[SPEAKER_05]: I would kill Mr. Cyclone.
47:00
[SPEAKER_05]: I would fuck the deadly dervish because that sounds hot, like he can dervish me all over.
47:04
[SPEAKER_05]: And Vic Vortex, I would love to be Sean Vortex.
47:07
[SPEAKER_05]: That's a cool name.
47:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody's going to vote from zero to five.
47:12
[SPEAKER_02]: You're welcome to comment on why you're voting that way.
47:14
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we'll take a final score.
47:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would say for all of his very, very naughty behavior.
47:20
[SPEAKER_00]: He is a high, very guilty here.
47:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Robin Banks assaulting women property damage.
47:27
[SPEAKER_03]: I think maybe like a four.
47:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, obviously like hitting women is not great.
47:31
[SPEAKER_03]: But then everything else that he's doing, again, he's figuring himself out, which could be rehabilitated.
47:37
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
47:37
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
47:38
[SPEAKER_04]: Daniel.
47:39
[SPEAKER_04]: I think a four.
47:40
[SPEAKER_04]: I think I agree with Derek.
47:41
[SPEAKER_04]: There's there's still some some growth that's possible.
47:45
[SPEAKER_04]: I think, but he has a long way to go and he's in the meantime pretty terrible.
47:50
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a one for me on the early silly hijinks part, but for hitting the wasp and hitting the wasp specifically, I'm still going to go low.
47:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a three just because I know what's coming next and I want to have something to build.
48:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But what are you carrying some room?
48:06
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you know what?
48:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a five.
48:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to draw a lot of violence for women.
48:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a five for me.
48:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I am going to give him a four just because knowing what's coming up, just balancing out the severity of his crimes.
48:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Hitting the wasp is really bad.
48:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't, that is horrible.
48:23
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and the same.
48:24
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm, I wouldn't have given him a slow if not for hitting wasp, which we all said, but I gave him a four for the same reasons.
48:29
[SPEAKER_05]: He gets worse.
48:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So that gives us a twenty six out of thirty.
48:32
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to go well for just a whirlwind everybody.
48:35
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to move to trial point two called the wins of change.
48:38
[SPEAKER_02]: The key issues here being Avengers forty six fifty four and fifty five and one thirty nine Marvel feature number six and Avengers annual six part.
48:48
[SPEAKER_02]: A whirlwind has his first team venture on the new masters of evil.
48:53
[SPEAKER_02]: His teammates are Ulysses' claw, the melted, nope.
48:57
[SPEAKER_02]: The black knight, yup, Dane Whitman, the future hero, and the radioactive man.
49:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And their leader is the crimson cowl who turns out to be Edwin Jarvis being mined controlled by Ultron.
49:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just the X-Men that gets crazy, everybody.
49:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Phew.
49:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Black Knight ends up turning on the group.
49:14
[SPEAKER_02]: They fight the Avengers.
49:15
[SPEAKER_02]: A whirlwind gets to spin Cyclones down the street while fighting Black Panther, which is just hijinks and fun.
49:21
[SPEAKER_02]: The Avengers are briefly canceled, a captured, and when they escape, whirlwind gets the hell out of there.
49:26
[SPEAKER_02]: But he still has his chauffeur job.
49:28
[SPEAKER_02]: When Pin was believed dead, Charles the chauffeur made his move on Janet, telling her that he loved her, but she was not interested.
49:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, turns out, Pym was alive, just trapped it tiny size for a little while.
49:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So, whirlwind first tries to kidnap the wasp, wanting to somehow get access to her fortune, but then he tries to kill both her and Hank Pym using weapons that he stole from the Avengers.
49:51
[SPEAKER_02]: In the end, he's unsuccessful, but his cover identity remains a secret.
49:57
[SPEAKER_02]: When the Wasp was taken in the hospital, blamed the Toad, or go listen to her script read anxiously, Whirlwind attacked in the critical care unit wanting to kidnap her off of her life supported, make her his own, but the Avengers are there to repel him.
50:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, you kind of just wonder if he wants Hank Pim's attention, because he puts the chauffeur disguise back on, tries sneaking back into the hospital, but the Avengers are still there.
50:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Pim realizes Whirlwind's true identity and attacks him outside the hospital, using a series of size changing tricks.
50:26
[SPEAKER_02]: to defeat whirlwind and soon shrinks down and zaps whirlwind directly in the chest by at teeny tiny size, and size like climbing through whirlwind's chest hair underneath his green harness.
50:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Real part of the story, we just have to put that on the script reading this book.
50:41
[SPEAKER_02]: After planning for months, whirlwind escaped from jail, blew up a wall, and then fought the cops.
50:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And while evading the vision he yelled,
50:48
[SPEAKER_02]: He who fights and whirls away will whirl and win another day.
50:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Never, never say that again, David.
50:55
[SPEAKER_02]: The vision easily busts below out of the air and defeats him.
50:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Whirlwind next joins the lethal lead genus alongside power man or Atlas from the Thunderbolts and the living laser.
51:04
[SPEAKER_02]: With their powers boosted by counterfaria, they rob a bank, they fight the Avengers, and a whirlwind has to admit that the vision scares him.
51:12
[SPEAKER_02]: He also calls powerman his teammate muscles a few times.
51:16
[SPEAKER_02]: He gets to double his speed, and whirl, black Panther, and the beast around, but then the Scarlet Witch knocks him out with a bench, and then Captain America straps all three villains to a machine, drains their powers, and makes himself superman.
51:28
[SPEAKER_02]: real story, a whirlwind was part of that too.
51:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me turn it over to Daniel Gilford for this section of the story.
51:34
[SPEAKER_04]: So in his defense, he's very committed and single-minded to specific things in this particular case, not the best things, but there is some potential there for him to grow and kind of focus on things that are much better for his life.
51:48
[SPEAKER_04]: He served faithfully for years, probably, a kind of a long-ish time.
51:52
[SPEAKER_04]: And that has to count for something.
51:54
[SPEAKER_04]: He's probably also a good driver because he's a chauffeur, so he drives a lot.
51:58
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, if we're thinking about good qualities that a person might possess driving, he probably is okay at that.
52:03
[SPEAKER_04]: He is excellent at rhyming.
52:05
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, maybe, maybe not much.
52:07
[SPEAKER_04]: He could probably grow in the rhyming department.
52:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Ed for prosecution.
52:11
[SPEAKER_02]: He's kind of a jerk.
52:13
[SPEAKER_02]: He is clearly stalker, kidnap, or crazy person here.
52:17
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, these stories are really fucking fun, you guys.
52:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever, that's on this section of World War One's history.
52:23
[SPEAKER_04]: I do love how can be it is.
52:24
[SPEAKER_04]: I think there's still this aspect of like, he's throwing out rhymes as he's evading the police.
52:31
[SPEAKER_04]: He's, you know, dressing up in masks upon masks.
52:35
[SPEAKER_04]: and hiding its identity for a bruise that like he just loses kind of very quickly loses the threat of.
52:42
[SPEAKER_04]: I really enjoy the campiness that's part of his personality in this episode.
52:46
[SPEAKER_02]: This guy is the most infamous story is the chauffeur thing.
52:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think when people know this, this is the piece they remember.
52:52
[SPEAKER_02]: He was getting it chauffeur for like months and months creepy.
52:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I will say this is his villain of the week era where he has some sort of plot and then gets thwarted at the end of the issue.
53:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very bad.
53:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's interesting seeing how he wanted access to Wasps fortune, not necessarily Wasps herself in this go around.
53:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, before the hospital.
53:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the hospital bed is another version of this.
53:15
[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, holy shit.
53:16
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I can't believe he tries to rip her out of the hospital bed.
53:19
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, that's his plan.
53:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So, Daniel, we did the script reading before this.
53:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that you're learning about whirlwind, does it change your understanding of that issue a little bit?
53:27
[SPEAKER_04]: I think a little bit, I hadn't realized his obsession ran so deep until this moment.
53:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I knew that he was kind of fixated on wasp in that particular issue, but I didn't realize it was a, you know, a historical thing going so far back.
53:39
[SPEAKER_04]: And just to see the way that Hank reacted now, like he's like, oh, you again, like, yeah, it kind of made me realize like how much more trigger.
53:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
53:49
[SPEAKER_04]: It does not take much to trigger Hank Pan.
53:52
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's not getting to fight for herself in these stories.
53:55
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll get there on it all.
53:57
[SPEAKER_05]: Not it.
53:57
[SPEAKER_05]: So this is another section where I feel like he's kind of a basic villain.
54:01
[SPEAKER_05]: He's doing bank robberies and stuff.
54:03
[SPEAKER_05]: So I would start kind of in the middle, but then him posing as a chauffeur is really bad to me.
54:08
[SPEAKER_05]: Like I'm giving him a four again.
54:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and then that like I'm going to kidnap you, tell you you want me, and then kill you when you decide you don't know.
54:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
54:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Is anyone not voting five in this section?
54:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Just raise your hand if it's not a five.
54:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no one has some thoughts.
54:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead.
54:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like this man is just so worst, but I'm gonna go for just because like he's not successful in the hospital attempt.
54:32
[SPEAKER_00]: He's awful still, but I will note like he does go to jail.
54:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Get out escapes.
54:39
[SPEAKER_00]: You get a four just because you got beat up in the end.
54:43
[SPEAKER_00]: but still now.
54:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
54:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
54:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyone else not voting five?
54:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
54:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We got a few more.
54:47
[SPEAKER_02]: So Jay Cosmic, Derek Daniel.
54:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to vote a for for whirlwind in this section.
54:52
[SPEAKER_01]: He's still a piece of shit and he is still obsessed, but he's not very good at it.
54:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's my justification.
55:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
55:01
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going I'm going for a for two here.
55:02
[SPEAKER_03]: And you do it just it's all kind of.
55:04
[SPEAKER_03]: He's really stupid about it all.
55:05
[SPEAKER_04]: So it needs to be a for just a relative score is our meaningful.
55:09
[SPEAKER_02]: That gives us the twenty six out of thirty in that section as well.
55:12
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to jump to trial point three, which is whirlwind romance.
55:16
[SPEAKER_02]: The key issues here are Avengers two twenty two power man and iron fist one oh six Captain America three twenty four West Coast Avengers sixteen iron man annual eleven and alpha flight one oh two Derek.
55:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to presume this was your first time reading all of these comic books.
55:32
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't hope you had a good time.
55:34
[SPEAKER_02]: The soundtrack member here obviously is Derek Nichols.
55:36
[SPEAKER_02]: We start with whirlwind in jail, but so is Hank Pym.
55:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Knowing he's going to get out of jail, uh, because, well, Hank Pym had a breakdown and, and smacked his wife.
55:44
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot going on in the comics during this time.
55:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, knowing he's going to get out of jail, Canon taunts Pym telling him that he plans to go visit Jen.
55:52
[SPEAKER_02]: After all, with you in here for ten or twenty years, she's going to need some tender love and care.
55:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you get out, maybe will hire you to be her chauffeur, just like I used to be.
56:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And when Pim hits cannon with a food tray, he gets pulled away by the guards, but then tiger shark breaks in and breaks whirlwind out of jail.
56:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's now back with the new masters of evil team under the leadership of Egghead, one of my all-time favorite Marvel villains.
56:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I love him.
56:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, his teammates, Moonstone, Tiger Shark, Scorpion.
56:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So David Cannon goes to Avengers Mansion, knocks out their new chauffeur and tries grabbing the wasp.
56:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Surprisingly, she's not interested.
56:30
[SPEAKER_02]: The rest of the masters are right behind, with Moonstone yelling at Whirlwind about in subordination.
56:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But then he takes Thor's hammer to his head.
56:38
[SPEAKER_02]: His first, like, major sound to defeat.
56:40
[SPEAKER_02]: The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the
56:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Later, a woman named Bonnie Kay hires Ironfist to act as her escort at her high school reunion because her old stalker David Cannon is going to be there.
56:51
[SPEAKER_02]: He was relentlessly after her in high school and he hasn't been ever since.
56:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So when Ironfist tells David Cannon to leave Bonnie alone, he immediately changes into costume as whirlwind and goes after the hero putting everyone in the reunion in danger.
57:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Iron fist knocks him off balance and then Iron fist his helmet off.
57:07
[SPEAKER_02]: But Bonnie, shockingly hits Iron fist with a chair and lets David escape.
57:13
[SPEAKER_02]: But after Iron fist goes after whirlwind in his old neighborhood, everyone there idolizes him.
57:17
[SPEAKER_02]: All the men in the neighborhood fight to defend him.
57:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So he soon fights off the crowd and takes whirlwind to jail.
57:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And that story is wild for his psychology.
57:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Ranting about how he was as fast as quick silver, but gets no respect from superheroes.
57:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Whirlwind goes to the Tinker River for an upgrade, who gives him wrist buzz saws made of tempered seal.
57:39
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the only Tinker.
57:41
[SPEAKER_02]: He also gets chained mail over the naked parts of his skin.
57:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Then he decides to team up with the trapster and go after Captain America, and they lure him into a trap at a rural truck stop, hiding behind a no joke, men at work sign.
57:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Whirlwind spins around with buzz saws, cap rushes off on his motorcycle, and trapster behind a kid, you not friored tuck sausages, a sign, makes the sound effect squint, as he blasts past all over the road, while sending Captain America's skidding.
58:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Whirlwind calls Captain America a stumble bum, cap uses his own belt to slam Whirlwind into the paste and he gets stuck.
58:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And wow, wow, wow, is that an issue?
58:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Whirlwind then teams up the Tiger Shark was back to California to steal a psycho circuit from the police.
58:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Tiger Shark was captured.
58:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Whirlwind divides the police, but ends up fighting Tiger and Hellcat, ranting about how important he is and using a sling shot technique.
58:42
[SPEAKER_02]: where he whirls up and down between two buildings like he's building up speed.
58:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And while he's doing this, who does he need?
58:48
[SPEAKER_02]: But Hank Pym, who has retired from being a superhero, and whirlwind just stands there and yells at Pym for being a total loser, and then knocks him off the roof to kill him.
58:57
[SPEAKER_02]: But Pym gets saved whirlwind is captured.
59:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
59:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Iron Man and you will love it.
59:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Warl went to Tax Iron Man and his office yelling things like, you will all taste the black bile of my vengeance.
59:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, after destroying property and putting civilians in danger, he tries grabbing Secretary Bambi Arbagast to hold her hostage, but she distracts him with the premise of a phone call allowing Iron Man to meet.
59:20
[SPEAKER_02]: lead to feed whirlwind.
59:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And finally, whirlwind, now his costume more streamlined, is hired to protect Diablo in Canada, who's basically committing war crimes, truly.
59:29
[SPEAKER_02]: He gets taken down easily by North Star, who calls him Monami.
59:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And he goes, who you call an Amy?
59:36
[SPEAKER_02]: when the North Star pumps us in a few thousand times and a whirlwind spins into a rock and is defeated.
59:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's not as fast as North Star.
59:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Alright, let me turn it over to Derek.
59:46
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so for the prosecution, time and time again, David Cannon and shows that he is dangerous, especially to women.
59:53
[SPEAKER_03]: His machismo and toxic masculinity has gotten him into countless incidences of trouble.
59:58
[SPEAKER_03]: This man is something to prove and he'll do it through very dangerous ways.
1:00:02
[SPEAKER_03]: He wants everyone to respect him and feel that he's entitled to get what he wants.
1:00:05
[SPEAKER_03]: He has chronically stalked Janabandine and Bonnie Kay making both women feel unsafe.
1:00:10
[SPEAKER_03]: So much so that Bonnie had to pay for a bodyguard to escort her to her classroom union.
1:00:14
[SPEAKER_03]: He was so obsessed with the wasp that he attacked her right in front of the Avengers mansion, and that's not something a sane person would do.
1:00:20
[SPEAKER_03]: He has worked as a hired mercenary for ruthless people like the Diablo, and I could.
1:00:24
[SPEAKER_03]: It shows that he can be paid to commit acts of violence and crime and has no moral sprue bulls as long as he ends up as star of the show.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_03]: He even used an elderly woman as a human shield during a fight with Iron Man.
1:00:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, no respect for human life, especially if they are feet.
1:00:37
[SPEAKER_03]: He is a powerful mutant, and with his buzz saw upgrades, he has the ability to seriously injure his victims if go unchecked.
1:00:43
[SPEAKER_03]: It is of the prospect here's opinion that David will only escalate these behaviors and needs to be imprisoned, and he needs to see counseling for obsessive harassment of women.
1:00:50
[SPEAKER_03]: So the defense.
1:00:51
[SPEAKER_03]: My distinguished jury, with all of my respect to you and your time, the defense finds these charges laughable.
1:00:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Are we that woke?
1:00:59
[SPEAKER_03]: Is simply being a man on trial here?
1:01:01
[SPEAKER_03]: Because if so, the only thing David is guilty of is being the manly ideal.
1:01:06
[SPEAKER_03]: He is a hero that is well loved in his community.
1:01:08
[SPEAKER_03]: He protects women.
1:01:09
[SPEAKER_03]: When that pansy Hank Penn was in jail, David stepped up like the Hulk Hogan and went into take care of her in his absence.
1:01:16
[SPEAKER_03]: David was simply attending his high school reunion and there is no proof of any sort of stalking that this prostitution is laid out.
1:01:21
[SPEAKER_03]: It is her word against his.
1:01:24
[SPEAKER_03]: And did you see the way she dresses?
1:01:26
[SPEAKER_03]: She even helped David escape after hiring the iron fist as a bodyguard, confusing, right?
1:01:31
[SPEAKER_03]: She pulled a stunt for his attention and it just shows you you can't believe women.
1:01:34
[SPEAKER_03]: And let's talk about Hank Kim.
1:01:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Hank launched that David and jumped off the building on his own.
1:01:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Hank isn't immensely unwell person and wanted to end his life because he is a loser.
1:01:44
[SPEAKER_03]: And the public knows this.
1:01:45
[SPEAKER_03]: He is the one that needs the counseling.
1:01:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, he is for gender equality in the workplace.
1:01:50
[SPEAKER_03]: While fighting Iron Man, David provided an opportunity for Mrs. Bambi Arbogas to advance her career and show off her skills to become Iron Man's secretary, or should I say administrative assistant?
1:02:00
[SPEAKER_03]: She got to demonstrate, first hand, how a depth she was.
1:02:03
[SPEAKER_03]: She could get the job.
1:02:05
[SPEAKER_03]: He goes after murderers.
1:02:07
[SPEAKER_03]: America.
1:02:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Cool guy.
1:02:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Did we all forget about that?
1:02:09
[SPEAKER_03]: And honestly the only crime there was that cat went on TV and said he was sorry for it.
1:02:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Put a voice.
1:02:15
[SPEAKER_03]: David was going doing the world of favor when he attacked Captain America with the trapster.
1:02:20
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know what?
1:02:20
[SPEAKER_03]: You all got better lubrication out of it.
1:02:22
[SPEAKER_03]: You're welcome.
1:02:23
[SPEAKER_03]: He prevented an international incident when those weak-sissy Canadians invaded Tierra de Maze in Central America.
1:02:29
[SPEAKER_03]: He stopped the slaughter of those limp-rested socialist peace and love Canadians by finding out how to fight.
1:02:35
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no way that Ottawa would have mustered those forces to survive.
1:02:39
[SPEAKER_03]: David diffused that situation.
1:02:41
[SPEAKER_03]: David's ripping strong exposed chest and thick melee thighs physically proved that he is a hero and that he is everything that the defense blade out is actually quite the opposite.
1:02:51
[SPEAKER_03]: So please don't fall for this world-go-end of a DEI case.
1:02:54
[SPEAKER_03]: That was gross.
1:02:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that was real bad.
1:02:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I know this man.
1:02:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I've met this attorney before.
1:02:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:03:00
[SPEAKER_02]: That was starting.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
1:03:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Just people don't owe me.
1:03:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Those are not.
1:03:07
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not me.
1:03:09
[SPEAKER_02]: That was the role of a lifetime, my friend.
1:03:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Derek jumping all over these crazy comic books and focusing on Davey.
1:03:16
[SPEAKER_02]: What was it like for you?
1:03:17
[SPEAKER_02]: What moments stood out?
1:03:18
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a crazy section of history.
1:03:20
[SPEAKER_03]: It truly was because like the sections you had me read a lot of it was just like he comes in and comes out like why are you there for some of it like it was just really random like acts of aggression and like a makes things of interest for him and then like you know the more serious cases where he was with Bonnie Kay and with attacking
1:03:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, she goes out, he is hired by by Egghead, but goes to Avengers Mansion with how the rest of the team, because he's so obsessed with the loss.
1:03:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, he couldn't have back up.
1:03:49
[SPEAKER_03]: There could have been a plan.
1:03:50
[SPEAKER_03]: There could have been some sort of strategy, but he has moved so impulsively and restlessly obsessed with her.
1:03:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I was just an interesting, interesting stone.
1:03:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for the worst person on the team.
1:03:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:03:59
[SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty bad.
1:04:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, delightful.
1:04:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Now Sean, I'd probably agree to do an experiment before.
1:04:06
[SPEAKER_02]: So Sean, just checking in, when squirting paste all over the road, does it make the sound effect quite?
1:04:12
[SPEAKER_05]: I found that that didn't.
1:04:13
[SPEAKER_05]: I found when I brought myself to orgasm, that made that noise stuff.
1:04:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I was in fly.
1:04:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Do we not?
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love him making fun of Hank Pym and Jale.
1:04:27
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my favorite part of this.
1:04:29
[SPEAKER_03]: being making fun of.
1:04:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I realize now that there's a Canadian on this call and I'm very sorry about all this.
1:04:38
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm being Buffalo.
1:04:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm actively trying to find somebody in Toronto to marry every like once a month going out there.
1:04:43
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you don't feel that way at all.
1:04:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in Canadian Texas.
1:04:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I get it.
1:04:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I hear it all the time.
1:04:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's go ahead and vote on this section.
1:04:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We got to see more experiments stuff.
1:04:54
[SPEAKER_02]: He spun the beast around and then he got punched out by a north star, everybody.
1:04:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So Terry got brilliant job.
1:04:59
[SPEAKER_01]: For this section, I am going to give him a four again.
1:05:02
[SPEAKER_01]: This is his silly crime of the week era still.
1:05:06
[SPEAKER_01]: It is kind of funny.
1:05:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Him kind of mocking Hank.
1:05:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Him still.
1:05:10
[SPEAKER_01]: He almost had me with the defense.
1:05:11
[SPEAKER_01]: He almost did, but just because of how much I was screaming.
1:05:18
[SPEAKER_01]: just top notch, but I still got to give him a four.
1:05:21
[SPEAKER_01]: He does do worse, not to spoil.
1:05:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's a three for me here.
1:05:25
[SPEAKER_02]: This one's mostly just hijinks.
1:05:27
[SPEAKER_02]: It's his least worst.
1:05:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also gonna go with the three.
1:05:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm keeping it apart just the whole like you're now like graduating from like possible you know mental health and redemption to like you're just gonna be a menace forever okay like this is what you're doing like there's no reason for you to be over there like you had a team of villains with a specific goal in mind and you're just running a map
1:05:52
[SPEAKER_04]: He is the prince of menaces.
1:05:54
[SPEAKER_04]: I was going to say three because I felt like this probably wasn't as terrible as previously and again I'm trying to get that relative score right but no one you just convinced me.
1:06:03
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it has to be a four.
1:06:04
[SPEAKER_04]: His growth arc is not growing the way that I want it to.
1:06:08
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm hoping for the potential of this character and it just as he goes through time he's not learning anything from his past mistakes and it's killing me so it's a four.
1:06:17
[SPEAKER_05]: So after I stopped staring at Derek's chest and actually listened to what he had to say, he makes some really a valid points here.
1:06:23
[SPEAKER_05]: I get that all the time, John.
1:06:25
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, okay, good.
1:06:27
[SPEAKER_05]: Canadian solution.
1:06:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, pretty.
1:06:31
[SPEAKER_05]: I gave him a three in the section what turned it for me is that Bonnie Kay and like the people from his old town like came to his defense.
1:06:40
[SPEAKER_05]: So there is something good about David it's almost like he's the town screw up that everybody's like oh David always you know following the session.
1:06:49
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a big origin story here right like because he's almost seems like the town like sports hero that like there's there's a crazy story there a Sean what was your vote though three
1:06:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm going to go for three, two, not because I'm in soldiers, but because, like, in this section specifically, it's just doing that B-level criminal stuff, like, he didn't hit any, hitting women, he didn't murder anybody, so just being that menace.
1:07:14
[SPEAKER_02]: So that gives us a twenty one out of thirty and trial point three.
1:07:17
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll now go into trial point four, which we are calling spinning out of control issues here are Avengers volume three number four and forty four and seventy one Thunderbolts reason in madness number one Avengers Academy five and astonishing ant man eight.
1:07:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one.
1:07:33
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you were happy to see fire star here, but that's probably it.
1:07:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Although, okay, in a new green and white costume, whirlwind goes to Robabank, and a huge group of Avengers show up to fight him, like nearly twenty, and whirlwind easily escapes in all of the chaos as they just trip on each other.
1:07:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Justice and Firestar pursue him, and he ends up getting submerged in a wall.
1:07:54
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like a hole in the wall with his head and his feet sticking out of it.
1:07:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's later thrown in jail.
1:08:00
[SPEAKER_02]: When Kang the Conqueror takes over the world, whirlwind broken to Kang's military center, demanding a place
1:08:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Warl wins here, and I don't wait in line behind Bums and losers.
1:08:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I got more power than the rest of these clowns put together Kang.
1:08:14
[SPEAKER_02]: So I figure I'm just what you were looking for in running the earth.
1:08:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And I should get class treatment.
1:08:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be a general at least, and Kang in response just teleports him away.
1:08:25
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the end of this story.
1:08:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, now here we go.
1:08:30
[SPEAKER_02]: In Las Vegas, whirlwind in costume has hired a prostitute to dress like the wasp and have sex with him and when things get serious canon beats the prostitute up, knocking her wig off and then uses his powers to blow her through a window and watches her fall to hit that.
1:08:45
[SPEAKER_02]: While saying, I'm not crazy, I'm just a man in love.
1:08:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes, wasp love doesn't just hurt.
1:08:52
[SPEAKER_02]: It kills.
1:08:53
[SPEAKER_02]: This is giving really bad early two thousands like bad B roll TV.
1:08:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy.
1:08:58
[SPEAKER_02]: So then he pays for some intel from plant man to learn where a pin in the wasp bar and then full costume he attacks the two heroes.
1:09:05
[SPEAKER_02]: He knocks giant man out or yellow jacket out and then he goes after the wasp beating her up as well.
1:09:11
[SPEAKER_02]: I've watched you for years, Janet, tried to get your attention any way I could.
1:09:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Flu around like an idiot in this get up.
1:09:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Join the masters of evil.
1:09:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Got my ass handed to me by the Avengers ten times over.
1:09:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Love made me a criminal.
1:09:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm tired of seeing that weak, wild ant boy get a taste of your honey.
1:09:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, after all I've sacrificed for you, you owe me wasp.
1:09:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And then while wasp is bleeding and unconscious, David Cannon licks her chief.
1:09:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we now move to the top of Luxur pyramid, where we see a giant naked Hank-pim straddling the spinks, distracting Canon with his presumably giant penis, and then, wasp beats the shit out of him, while saying, I don't owe you anything.
1:09:54
[SPEAKER_02]: You were given a gift, Canon.
1:09:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm mutant ability to become a human whirlwind.
1:09:58
[SPEAKER_02]: You chose your path, but you failed to take responsibility for it, and that's what makes you a criminal.
1:10:04
[SPEAKER_02]: When Norman Osborne took over the Thunderbolts, Whirlwind teamed up with Mr. Hyde, Miss Tiger Shark again, and Boomerang, and Blackmailed McDonald Gargan, the Scorpion, into bringing them Osborne, who they then tried to extort.
1:10:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this is where Scorpion is then, by the way.
1:10:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Osborne turns on them, whirlwind gets to impale him, but then Osborne just beats the shit out of David Cannon, breaks his knee and then beats up the other criminals as well.
1:10:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, he got it, it was coming to him, but the green goblin man.
1:10:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So after hearing that the wall
1:10:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Died.
1:10:34
[SPEAKER_02]: This is when we thought she was dead.
1:10:36
[SPEAKER_02]: She's in the microverse whirlwind attack tank Pymet Avengers Academy.
1:10:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Pym's now using the name Wasp to honor his dead wife.
1:10:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, his dead ex wife.
1:10:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And this time whirlwind has sword blades on his arm.
1:10:47
[SPEAKER_02]: He blames Pym for Janet's death.
1:10:49
[SPEAKER_02]: You killed her.
1:10:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I loved her, but she picked you because I was just her chauffeur and you were supposed to be the big hero.
1:10:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he threatened to kill the students that Avengers Academy in revenge.
1:10:58
[SPEAKER_02]: He cuts Pym and then gets electrocuted by striker the openly gay member of the
1:11:04
[SPEAKER_02]: The world went to, he's getting beat up by lots of gay men, which I love.
1:11:08
[SPEAKER_02]: A world when tries doing on a blind date in costume with a full mask on and the buzz sauce on and the date stands him up.
1:11:16
[SPEAKER_02]: That's fine.
1:11:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Not every chick can handle a dude in a helmet.
1:11:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So he jumps on Tinder and he swipes right on every person, including Hila or someone using Hila's, or Hella's like profile picture, but no one has matched on it and he rants, fuck, unbelievable.
1:11:34
[SPEAKER_02]: See, this is what I'm always saying.
1:11:36
[SPEAKER_02]: They never go for the nice guys.
1:11:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god.
1:11:39
[SPEAKER_02]: He plays poker at the bar and gives advice to a new criminal about taking the right jobs, the ones that pay well but aren't too dangerous.
1:11:46
[SPEAKER_02]: You want to get in with a nice mid-level boss, he says.
1:11:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing too fancy.
1:11:51
[SPEAKER_02]: None of them are good, but a tombstone or a crime master will do you write more often than a kingpin.
1:11:57
[SPEAKER_02]: He also advised to stay close to midtown because there are hotter women and less violent criminals.
1:12:04
[SPEAKER_02]: You'd rather fight Spider-Man, WebDup, or PowerMan, taken down in one punch than Daredevil, and get beat the shit beat out of you, and definitely stay away from the Punisher.
1:12:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Scott Lang ends up assembling a team of villains for pay, including Janice Lincoln, the female beetle who I love.
1:12:19
[SPEAKER_02]: The voice, the magician, the hijacker,
1:12:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Plus, the new Ross Mahatra, the gay, giant man, and Darla Deering, missed thing from the Fantastic Four, as well as Grizzly and Machinesmith, and I mean, wow, what a queer, delicious group to read all day about.
1:12:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Whirlwind ends up bragging about being part of the Masters of Evil a bunch, they rob Crossfire, he gets paid, and then he cuts out when there are any expectations of heroism placed on him.
1:12:46
[SPEAKER_02]: You guys, there's a lot happening at the section
1:12:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me just break over to number one, who maybe for the first time thought, why did I agree to go on Grey Malkin' Lane?
1:12:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Literally all is like, oh, what is that?
1:12:56
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
1:12:58
[SPEAKER_00]: While you're on her, the prosecution stands.
1:13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And with all the evidence presented, really feels like there's not a lot to say here.
1:13:07
[SPEAKER_00]: From jump, just the, you know, violence and murder and aggression and just everything else, the standing tentos down in the villainy.
1:13:18
[SPEAKER_00]: is just wild to me.
1:13:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's very evident here at his large ego and narcissism in the sense of like, you're swiping on a dating app and you think that people are gonna smash with you.
1:13:31
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just generally awful.
1:13:34
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no real defense here, unfortunately, or fortunately.
1:13:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically, like, maybe he's got a lot of brain damage.
1:13:41
[SPEAKER_00]: He needs to see a healer and maybe he gets a mental health services.
1:13:45
[SPEAKER_00]: If there's any sort of like questioning this,
1:13:47
[SPEAKER_00]: because he's just the worst.
1:13:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't doubt for a second that this is one of those comic periods where it's like, we're doing a lot of realism in these comics, like trying to make it very grounded.
1:14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah.
1:14:03
[SPEAKER_02]: So everyone has indicated that they're voting five except Derek said zero.
1:14:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Derek, why?
1:14:08
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just kidding.
1:14:13
[SPEAKER_06]: No.
1:14:13
[SPEAKER_03]: I just float long out of Zoom.
1:14:18
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a thirty out of thirty, but let me toss a story each at you from this section.
1:14:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me just hear your quick one to take on hearing this.
1:14:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe some of you got to read these.
1:14:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Jay Cosmic, do you have thoughts on a whirlwind versus justice and fire star?
1:14:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, it was my comic introduction to whirlwind and it was satisfying.
1:14:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Sean whirlwind auditions for a role with hanging the conqueror and then just gets teleported away.
1:14:40
[SPEAKER_05]: That was great.
1:14:41
[SPEAKER_05]: I love that King, just like director of them, like I don't want to deal with this.
1:14:45
[SPEAKER_02]: No one, the Avengers issue I had you read.
1:14:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I gave you some content warning in advance, but rough story hard to read as anything, but just callous, really terrible.
1:14:54
[SPEAKER_02]: But then we have the moment where he gets defeated by Wasp, but only after he's distracted by giant naked Hank Pim.
1:15:03
[SPEAKER_00]: it's crazy it's a lot the whole like giant naked man thing even for me like if this wasn't the story like just in general like I'm like we don't need this like this is completely unnecessary here to tell this part of the story they ever part of the issue
1:15:18
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, I'm like, no, I don't want this.
1:15:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But honestly, I'm like, what is happening?
1:15:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that would be very distracting psych at it.
1:15:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm also glad that Janet kicked his ass cuz god.
1:15:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Daniel, do you have thoughts on the story where Norman Osborne beats the shit at a whirlwind and breaks his knee?
1:15:35
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, good.
1:15:36
[SPEAKER_04]: It's good.
1:15:37
[SPEAKER_04]: It's cathartic.
1:15:38
[SPEAKER_04]: I think comics oftentimes reflect the period in which they're written and these comics are definitely doing what no one said, which is like really reflecting this period of time where they're supposed to be some realism brought into these comics.
1:15:50
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a bit more gritty of being influenced by a lot of the sort of forces and culture.
1:15:55
[SPEAKER_04]: It's
1:15:56
[SPEAKER_04]: Kind of gross.
1:15:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so let's talk about the rejections here.
1:16:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Beat by two mutant heroes dismissed by Kang the Conqueror gets beat up by the wasp, but then gets beat up by Norman Osborn.
1:16:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Then we get the scene of him on Tinder trying to go on dates and full costume while giving advice to guys at the bar like, hey, don't take jobs with the big guys like it doesn't end well.
1:16:16
[SPEAKER_02]: There's, there's a whole journey of ego reduction for this character here.
1:16:19
[SPEAKER_00]: For the Norman Osborn aspect of that, I don't like the drink of them.
1:16:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I just generally think that you sort of.
1:16:25
[SPEAKER_00]: No, the worst character.
1:16:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, the worst.
1:16:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But there, like, this is one of the most I was like, oh, good.
1:16:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Beat up again, Norman.
1:16:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, very like.
1:16:34
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, we're cheering for Norma.
1:16:35
[SPEAKER_00]: The game he had in the game.
1:16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that was, I think is like the, that's during our like, right before like the siege and like dark of interest period.
1:16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's so interesting that like their first thought is, yeah, we're going to export this dude because we know he's got these skeletons in his closet and Norman's like, haha.
1:16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: jokes on you.
1:16:51
[SPEAKER_02]: We also got that the was died, not his own hand, and then he attacks the school and gets beat up by a little gay kid, which is great too.
1:16:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Which I'm like, you have other people that you're working with, like you show up by yourself.
1:17:03
[SPEAKER_00]: That's in the sense of like him, like at that table, like with this new group of people.
1:17:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's really interesting that he's very knowledgeable about how to like be a successful villain.
1:17:13
[SPEAKER_00]: He says something at one point where he's like, this is why I don't like my nephew watch Sesame Street, because one of the other villains at the table is like,
1:17:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was me trying to brainwash everyone on TV, which I think is also hilarious that he's like still protecting his like family, which is weird.
1:17:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of like him and I kind of like him and tiger shark his buddies, Sean, would what do you think of a of whirlwinds dating life post the was she's dead.
1:17:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So he's back out there on Tinder now.
1:17:36
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I like that Marvel is giving us a very real look at like basically he's like a today a jumper.
1:17:42
[SPEAKER_05]: He's trying all this stuff.
1:17:44
[SPEAKER_05]: Nothing's working for him.
1:17:45
[SPEAKER_05]: He's blaming everybody but himself.
1:17:47
[SPEAKER_05]: So I like that they're showing us this man who's not getting rewarded at all.
1:17:51
[SPEAKER_05]: And even like going on Tinder, he can't find anyone there because everybody can kind of sense that he's an asset.
1:17:57
[SPEAKER_05]: He's a machismo asset.
1:18:00
[SPEAKER_00]: He's walking around the cone on his head.
1:18:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:18:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Does he have a photo holding a fish in his profile?
1:18:11
[SPEAKER_00]: His cone is a version that I get Trump hat.
1:18:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
1:18:13
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to jump to trial point five, which we are calling Tempest in a T-pot.
1:18:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Key issues here.
1:18:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Unstoppable wasp volume one number seven in volume two numbers eight and nine.
1:18:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a volume difference if you're going to read seven from one volume eight and nine from the next.
1:18:28
[SPEAKER_02]: These are Jeremy Whitley's stories.
1:18:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Jeremy's my friend.
1:18:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I love this character.
1:18:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I love this run on comics.
1:18:33
[SPEAKER_02]: We also have X-Men, the twenty twenty two volume annual number one, which was the fire star of the issue.
1:18:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the recent series by Al-Yuying wasp number one.
1:18:44
[SPEAKER_02]: The assigned jury member here is Jay Cosmic.
1:18:46
[SPEAKER_02]: We're a wind and the beetle again, Janis Lincoln.
1:18:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Took a gig capturing two teenage girls, Natty of Endine, Hank Pym's daughter through his first wife that he didn't know existed until recently.
1:18:58
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a whole thing.
1:18:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And Ying, who is trained assassin, lesbian, he kidnapped them both from the hospital, but the wasp Janet this time is there to stop them.
1:19:09
[SPEAKER_02]: When Beetle fired an early shot and cinched whirlwind's helmet, he called her quote, a mouthy broad.
1:19:15
[SPEAKER_02]: It's worse because she's also a woman of color.
1:19:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't say those things.
1:19:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Janet kicks whirlwind off her roof.
1:19:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Naughty afflips him over her head.
1:19:23
[SPEAKER_02]: So whirlwind panics whirling around him in the hospital until Ying cuts him and tries to kill him.
1:19:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Teenagers again.
1:19:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Cannon gets arrested.
1:19:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And believe it or not, whirlwind then goes after Janet again.
1:19:36
[SPEAKER_02]: And Heathrow's a charater.
1:19:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Jen, you and I got a lot of history.
1:19:39
[SPEAKER_02]: This doesn't have to get any more violent.
1:19:42
[SPEAKER_02]: She replies, look whirlwind.
1:19:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what you think you remember in that twisted brain of yours, but you and I only have one type of history.
1:19:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a violent one.
1:19:51
[SPEAKER_02]: You serial stalking psychopath.
1:19:54
[SPEAKER_02]: But he wants to change her mind.
1:19:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if I got a beat at out of you, he says, you're the wasp and I'm the wind.
1:20:01
[SPEAKER_02]: It was always meant to be, oh, he writes poetry guys.
1:20:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, she's the worst.
1:20:05
[SPEAKER_02]: It turns out Monica Rappuccini, the scientist supreme has convinced David Cannon that Pim who is now Ultron
1:20:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to take time to explain, have made her hate whirlwind all of these years.
1:20:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So he also gets come on Janet embraced the whirlwind and then she just beats the shit out of him.
1:20:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Chokes, punches, rips his helmet off, beats him with it.
1:20:28
[SPEAKER_02]: Zap some again, punchism after all of that.
1:20:31
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like her getting her rage out and bravo, Jeremy Whitley for this story, because we've been waiting for it for fifty-fucked years.
1:20:38
[SPEAKER_02]: So, whirlwind is later hired for a quarter million dollars to kill a man in the hospital by pulling the air out of his lungs.
1:20:45
[SPEAKER_02]: like walk by, suck some air up, and then the guy's dead.
1:20:48
[SPEAKER_02]: He also tries robbing drugs from the hospital while he's there.
1:20:52
[SPEAKER_02]: When he sees the Avengers nearby, he causes a giant windstorm in dangering civilians, and fights Firestar and Cyclops, and is soundly defeated.
1:21:01
[SPEAKER_02]: But he also put a bomb in a body and set it to detonate, Firestar stops it.
1:21:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, power of microwaves.
1:21:08
[SPEAKER_02]: uh... whirlwind attacks uh... wasp at the girl in research labs the girl alabs again this is the genuinely book uh... he tries to kill her quick this time i owe you that much he says his boss are now lined with acid and she is over him and threatens to kill him in his sleep sometime and make it look like an aneurism like all zap your ear while i come inside your head and kill you
1:21:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And he goes, just shut up, Jan, shut up.
1:21:35
[SPEAKER_02]: You think I want to be doing this?
1:21:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that what you think?
1:21:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I was making progress.
1:21:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I was doing the work.
1:21:40
[SPEAKER_02]: My therapist was proud of me.
1:21:42
[SPEAKER_02]: How's it going to look now, huh?
1:21:44
[SPEAKER_02]: How's it going to look when I take your head clean off with an acid blade?
1:21:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my God.
1:21:49
[SPEAKER_02]: And he gets his ass kicked again.
1:21:50
[SPEAKER_02]: But this time, it turns out he's being controlled.
1:21:53
[SPEAKER_02]: He's been sent a message, find me, burned on his forehead.
1:21:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And a few issues later, we close the story with him getting shot in the head, and then converted into Victor Shade, the body for the vision to inhabit.
1:22:08
[SPEAKER_02]: And he becomes a crime-fighting duo with Janet Van Dyne, but he's no longer in control of his body.
1:22:13
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where it ends for this character.
1:22:15
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk about it.
1:22:16
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the arguing story, most recently.
1:22:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me turn it over to Jay Cosmic for a trial point five.
1:22:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Your Honor, and esteemed to jury.
1:22:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Given Rollwin's previous history, he was hired for his experience, which can be viewed as an asset.
1:22:30
[SPEAKER_01]: A job is a job after all in this tough economy.
1:22:32
[SPEAKER_01]: He has a reputation for being untouchable, which shows he is good at what he does, and he completed at least one of the jobs all at a rate lesser than his skill set, a hustle is a hustle.
1:22:43
[SPEAKER_01]: David appears to be making attempts to better himself going to therapy before relapsing back into crime against his own accord.
1:22:49
[SPEAKER_01]: According to the whisper agency, he most recently lost his killer instinct, which feels like progress.
1:22:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Can we really hold David accountable for mind control when he's easy to manipulate?
1:23:01
[SPEAKER_01]: by the likes of Monica Rappuccini.
1:23:03
[SPEAKER_01]: He was described by Sage as only standing behind smarter criminals, examples being Mandarin, the Hood and Count Nefaria, from the majority of his career as a professional miscreant.
1:23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: He's proven he was incapable of succeeding previously.
1:23:17
[SPEAKER_01]: on his own, is he at fault for his employment of bigger baddies?
1:23:21
[SPEAKER_01]: While he was excluded from Krakowa, perhaps being the Avengers problem exclusively wasn't so bad for him, knowing how things played out for the island.
1:23:29
[SPEAKER_01]: On the other hand, David's obsession with Jan Van
1:23:33
[SPEAKER_01]: The Dine continues to plague him, resorting to the usual misogyny and abuse he is known for.
1:23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only did he attempt to injure and possibly kill Jen and Naughty event Dine on multiple occasions, but he did also successfully commit murder for higher, and attempted to bring down at least two hospitals in this part of it's career.
1:23:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Plus, the previous ones keep him away from a hospital.
1:23:54
[SPEAKER_01]: The complete disregard for life regardless of the relation shows David belongs behind bars.
1:23:59
[SPEAKER_01]: but who knows how long that will hold him as he tends to slip through the cracks of the justice system and offend again.
1:24:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Call me Mr. Fantastic because finding a defense for him was a stretch.
1:24:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, is everyone a five here as well?
1:24:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Raise your hand if you are not a five here.
1:24:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Justin is different than the rest.
1:24:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, no, I'm hand-a-raising if he is a five for me.
1:24:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a thirty out of thirty.
1:24:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll get the final score in a moment, but let's talk about some of the key moments of this final section.
1:24:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Justin, what was it like for you to read these comics?
1:24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was familiar with the X-Men issue, just having read the crico-era so it was nice getting refreshed with that.
1:24:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I will admit I did not read the wasp stuff before this and
1:24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It was nice attention to detail, um, bringing up their past history, seeing Wasp and Nadia, kick his butt, was just really satisfying.
1:24:48
[SPEAKER_01]: His history with hospitals, like, good God, fifty feet, fifty yards.
1:24:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my house, I should say.
1:24:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We have that key moment of loss just kicking the shit out of him, which is so satisfying.
1:25:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I did anybody have thoughts on that scene.
1:25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Finally, Jesus.
1:25:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the ending of Kim getting shot in the head and taken over by this other entity crazy because his potentials unlocked in a new way now that he's not in charge.
1:25:15
[SPEAKER_04]: It's interesting that someone who has spent most of his career trying to control someone else's now under control.
1:25:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
1:25:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and it's an inhuman presence in his brain that makes him more human.
1:25:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
1:25:29
[SPEAKER_02]: We also get a lot of the leaning into the crazy stalker shit here, right?
1:25:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think I want to be doing this?
1:25:33
[SPEAKER_02]: My therapist was proud of me.
1:25:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I have to be hedgy with an acid blade, and it's all your fault.
1:25:39
[SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy.
1:25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: He just really wants that validation.
1:25:43
[SPEAKER_02]: So we end up friends with an eighty-nine percent asshole for this guy when we tabulate the score all up, which is very fair.
1:25:51
[SPEAKER_02]: That's one of our top ratings of all time.
1:25:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Mesmero remains the only person to a hundred percent, but that guy has a fucking rapist.
1:25:57
[SPEAKER_02]: So the like said, what are thoughts on David Cannon whirlwind?
1:26:01
[SPEAKER_02]: As we kind of wrap up our conversation, we've had a lot of thoughts about the psychology and the potential of this character.
1:26:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So let me let me toss a few questions but anyone who wants to answer it's great.
1:26:10
[SPEAKER_02]: What are your thoughts on his potential?
1:26:12
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's exciting that he was going to therapy.
1:26:14
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that's important.
1:26:15
[SPEAKER_04]: There is some growth.
1:26:17
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that that he showed in that and that's pretty much it.
1:26:21
[SPEAKER_04]: That's all I got.
1:26:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
1:26:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god.
1:26:22
[SPEAKER_02]: He's going to moonstone you guys.
1:26:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh no.
1:26:26
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
1:26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Now did he go to therapy on his accord or was it one of those like?
1:26:31
[SPEAKER_01]: The court mandated.
1:26:34
[SPEAKER_05]: I think he does have a lot of potential as a villain.
1:26:37
[SPEAKER_05]: Anyway, not to be a better person.
1:26:38
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, he's lost it.
1:26:40
[SPEAKER_05]: But the idea that he could like suck the air out of somebody's lungs and just kill them.
1:26:44
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, that's pretty crazy.
1:26:45
[SPEAKER_05]: That's bringing his power to a whole new set.
1:26:48
[SPEAKER_05]: I do find it interesting like we said that he's being mine controlled.
1:26:51
[SPEAKER_05]: So I wonder if that would eventually make him a better person like knowing what it feels like to be controlled.
1:26:57
[SPEAKER_05]: Like he does other people.
1:26:58
[SPEAKER_05]: So maybe maybe he'll be better after that.
1:27:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we were talking storylines earlier where he might fit into the mutant world, making this character a horseman of apocalypse, like giving him a crazy upgrade in that way, right?
1:27:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Like this is a famine character waiting to happen with a really cool power set.
1:27:12
[SPEAKER_02]: There's some major upgrades here.
1:27:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Is he redeemable?
1:27:15
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
1:27:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of not, right?
1:27:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Like not.
1:27:19
[SPEAKER_02]: Hank Pim cannot live down the one time he hit Janet.
1:27:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Like no matter what we do, it's something that can never be undone.
1:27:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Warland is the bad guys.
1:27:27
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't think about it as much, but we've seen him murder and be multiple women, including Janet at least once.
1:27:33
[SPEAKER_03]: When I will say, if he did get therapy and he did come out and say, I am redeemed, there would be half of this country that would believe that and be like champion and as like this is the type of criminal we like.
1:27:45
[SPEAKER_02]: An interesting version though, too, is like a nicer version of him where he's like a hero in another X-Men world somewhere like exile style and he ends up in this world and has to live with the legacy of this character.
1:27:56
[SPEAKER_02]: My next question is this character queer?
1:27:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
1:27:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that might be like can't figure out his shit with women, because he's freaking the worst.
1:28:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But also, I mean,
1:28:10
[SPEAKER_01]: If he is, he's definitely overcompensating.
1:28:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, horrible person, but I do know queer people with that journey who grew violent before navigating the coming out process, right?
1:28:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where we don't know anything of David's world.
1:28:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Our David's past is childhood.
1:28:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Where does this thick sense of ego come from?
1:28:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Is this learned behavior?
1:28:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Is he redeemable?
1:28:28
[SPEAKER_02]: If he gets his brain zapped in the right way, right?
1:28:31
[SPEAKER_02]: There's an interesting potential for him.
1:28:33
[SPEAKER_05]: This is gonna go dark, but I feel like he was sexually molested as a kid.
1:28:37
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm getting very, like, I got molested.
1:28:40
[SPEAKER_05]: So now I'm gonna, like, be brutal and be violent towards other people in that same way.
1:28:44
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that really messed him up in the head.
1:28:46
[SPEAKER_02]: For those that would like to see more of my thoughts on that, I made a documentary called Dog Belly about a hate crime that discusses some of that psychology.
1:28:54
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a deep dive, but take care of yourself emotionally if and when you watch.
1:28:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a good film, but it'll get you a little bit.
1:29:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: My final notes, he is unwell.
1:29:05
[SPEAKER_00]: That's putting him out, Lee.
1:29:07
[SPEAKER_03]: But acid blades are we a fan?
1:29:09
[SPEAKER_03]: I know.
1:29:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, going back to like, is he queer?
1:29:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Like he also has the ability to like spin around and keep people at day, like keeping people out of his orbit and let's do somebody he wants in that orbit.
1:29:22
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's an interesting, also an interesting metaphor of like, you know, like mentally like queer people being closeted or hiding who they are, like putting up those walls.
1:29:31
[SPEAKER_03]: So
1:29:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, on the redeemable question, I think this character almost falls into the Professor X trope.
1:29:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's a hard character to redeem because he's done so much bad.
1:29:39
[SPEAKER_02]: You almost have to give, like, he's been possessed by the shadow king during these bad moments.
1:29:44
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why he behaved that way.
1:29:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, you can't really use him in any sort of capacity, except as the villain to get punched.
1:29:50
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not a guy we ever want to see how the good day because what the fuck would that look like right like he's he's awful.
1:29:56
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to meet his tailor though or I want to know the source of his outfits?
1:30:01
[SPEAKER_04]: Is he is he creating them himself or is he hiring out someone else?
1:30:06
[SPEAKER_02]: This does not excuse his crimes, but I think my secret origin for him is he just wanted to be a professional ice skater.
1:30:11
[SPEAKER_02]: He was the best in his own costumes, but they discovered he was a mutant and kicked him off the team, and it just put him on a dark path forever.
1:30:20
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, it does not equate the crimes that result as I loved having this conversation.
1:30:25
[SPEAKER_02]: I love doing deep dives, particularly on characters people don't think about very much.
1:30:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope you all had the best time today.
1:30:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I love hanging out with you.
1:30:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You're some of my favorite people, and I'm so happy to be here with you.
1:30:35
[SPEAKER_02]: So any final thoughts as we're wrapping up and where can people find you online?
1:30:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything you'd like to plug for late August?
1:30:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Twenty twenty five.
1:30:42
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, so yeah, I'm Sean from solving for X and X min test podcast.
1:30:47
[SPEAKER_05]: We're actually we just wrapped up our re our wrapping up X min evolution.
1:30:52
[SPEAKER_05]: And a few weeks, we're going to get into one division and look out from October.
1:30:57
[SPEAKER_05]: We're going to be doing a follow up to Tumion to handle, which I'm really excited.
1:31:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I am Justin Cosmic.
1:31:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I go by J under score cosmic online.
1:31:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I am mostly on Instagram post a lot of cosplay content.
1:31:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I can also be found on Patreon, which is going over pretty well as well as blue sky.
1:31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Although blue sky doesn't like underscore, so it's J Cosmic without the underscore there.
1:31:19
[SPEAKER_00]: everyone.
1:31:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm um you can find me on Instagram and on my social media at number one x and then cosplay.
1:31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, roll wind is the worst.
1:31:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope I can come back and do more trials and have a lot of fun with you guys over here on the podcast.
1:31:30
[SPEAKER_04]: Hi everyone.
1:31:31
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm Daniel Gilford.
1:31:32
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm a climate scientist and I like to write about comic books on Instagram.
1:31:37
[SPEAKER_04]: You can find me there at comic extracts.
1:31:40
[SPEAKER_04]: You can also find me in Orlando at Blackbird Comics and Coffee House in Madeleine, Florida, trying to come find us in October where we're going to be talking about climate change and comic books.
1:31:52
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm Derek Nichols, so you can follow me on Instagram and TikTok as Derek Jane Nichols.
1:31:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I also have been recapping Captain Planet episodes, so you can follow me on my personal Instagram there, but also on YouTube, it planets here at Derek, and also to talk adventure there as well.
1:32:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Lastly, I'm Chad Anderson.
1:32:09
[SPEAKER_02]: I keep my own social media private because I got kiddos.
1:32:11
[SPEAKER_02]: This group's welcome to follow me, just ask.
1:32:13
[SPEAKER_02]: But you can follow the show at Graemolk and underscore lane on Instagram.
1:32:17
[SPEAKER_02]: We are continuing to put out a regular content and just having a blast making this show.
1:32:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Talking to this group specifically, but also everyone who comes on for script readings and other trials, you guys, this is a group of talented, educated, nerdy, wonderful people.
1:32:32
[SPEAKER_02]: When we all got to hang out together at the uncanny experience at various times, we're putting all this work into just being present because we find community together.
1:32:39
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a lot of talent and smarts in this room.
1:32:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I am a forty six year old man who just spent two hours on a Sunday talking about a skinny guy from the nineteen sixties.
1:32:48
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a delicious way to live my life.
1:32:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm super grateful for all of you for being part of this.
1:32:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, next thing you can watch for on the show in September.
1:32:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We are taking two very crazy journeys.
1:32:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Over on the Patreon channel, we're going to be doing episodes on Marvel's most untouchable characters.
1:33:04
[SPEAKER_02]: The, the, the like, oh my god, I can't believe they did that.
1:33:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you get the representative voices on these conversations become fascinating.
1:33:12
[SPEAKER_02]: So next week, watch for an episode on umbaku, the man ape.
1:33:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, yep.
1:33:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, my guess on that episode, our Doctrine of Conday and Storm Rider.
1:33:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Arrewa Ayadale.
1:33:22
[SPEAKER_02]: We had a wonderful conversation about it.
1:33:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So be prepared.
1:33:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, I'm going to take you on the journey all month on that channel.
1:33:28
[SPEAKER_02]: So watch for those conversations.
1:33:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Over on the main show, we're going to be talking a lot about Marvel magic this month.
1:33:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So in the next episode, in September, please watch for our script reading of X-Men number ninety-eight.
1:33:39
[SPEAKER_02]: We are building up to the Phoenix Saga introduction, which is very exciting.
1:33:43
[SPEAKER_02]: There's Sentinels and Craziness.
1:33:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a delicious read.
1:33:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I also have an interview with Lovecraft Country Reiter Matt Ruff.
1:33:52
[SPEAKER_02]: We talk all about HP Lovecraft, the changes to the genre and kind of its impact on comic book fiction and Marvel magic specifically.
1:34:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So watch for content all through there on the month related to different conversations about Marvel magic, including an interview with Al-Uing.
1:34:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, at the end of these, I always announce the next three trials in September.
1:34:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Please watch for, again, Marvel Magic Month.
1:34:14
[SPEAKER_02]: We're doing the trial of Agatha Harkness at the end of the month in October for Halloween.
1:34:19
[SPEAKER_02]: The joint trials of the son of Satan and Satanna
1:34:23
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in November, wow, uh, we're going to be doing the trial of Baron Helmut Zimo.
1:34:28
[SPEAKER_02]: All of the fascism conversations we've been having on the show have been leading a particular direction and we get to celebrate that crazy mother fucker who started the Thunderbolt.
1:34:37
[SPEAKER_02]: So thanks for that, but that's all we'll take you for, sir.
1:34:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you everybody for hanging out.
1:34:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I had such a good time with each of you today.
1:34:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't wait to see you all again at Flamcon for some of us in just a few weeks.
1:34:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So thanks everybody.
1:34:50
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see you back here next time on the Graham Hawking Lane Show.
1:34:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And now stay tuned for some thoughts on fascism as a special guest and I talked about a red skull story and it's modern applications.
1:35:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Stella Goldschlag was raised in a middle-class Jewish family in Berlin, Germany where her father worked as a conductor, a composer, and a journalist, and her mother had been a singer.
1:35:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Despite being doded on by her parents, Stella found that at age eleven, she was no longer legally allowed to attend state schools due to being Jewish.
1:35:23
[SPEAKER_02]: As her parents lost their jobs and things grew more and more difficult for Jews in Germany, especially after Kristallnacht.
1:35:30
[SPEAKER_02]: The Gulschlugs tried to leave the country but were unable to obtain visas.
1:35:34
[SPEAKER_02]: By the age of nineteen, Stella and her parents were working as forced laborers before being sent off to the concentration camps.
1:35:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Many Jews would be forced into working in labor camps or labor institutions.
1:35:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Stella married a man named Monfred Kubler, but soon the Jews were being rounded up on mass and being sent to the concentration camps, and Stella had a certain amount of privilege because she was blonde and blue-eyed and had a certain level of Aryan features.
1:36:00
[SPEAKER_02]: In nineteen forty-three, however, she was arrested and tortured and interrogated multiple times in different women's prisons, and eventually they convinced her through signing of some sort of deal
1:36:11
[SPEAKER_02]: that they would save her parents, her husband and his family from the concentration camps, as long as she worked for the Nazi Party as a catcher, hunting out Jewish people who were posing as non-Jews in the popular culture.
1:36:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So there were a lot of Jews that were trying to kind of hide and plane sight through mixed marriages, etc.
1:36:31
[SPEAKER_02]: people who were trying to lead the country with forged visas.
1:36:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And Stella's job, along with about fifteen to twenty other people on her team, were to hunt these people down and turn them in.
1:36:41
[SPEAKER_02]: The Nazis called Gulchlag the blonde poise and over the years.
1:36:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And she was responsible for sending at least several hundred Jews into the Nazi camps.
1:36:50
[SPEAKER_02]: But over time the Nazis broke their promises to Stella specifically.
1:36:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And her parents, her husband and his family were all sent to the camps and killed anyway.
1:36:59
[SPEAKER_02]: They tried promising Stella that she would be considered an Aryan if she continued to work for them.
1:37:05
[SPEAKER_02]: In other words, we'll forget that you're a Jew.
1:37:07
[SPEAKER_02]: She did marry again and ended up having a daughter, but after several assassination attempts by the Jewish Revolutionaries against her, she became very well recognized and they had to pull her from the service.
1:37:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, before the war, the Jewish population of Berlin was around one hundred and sixty thousand people.
1:37:23
[SPEAKER_02]: By the end of the war, less than two thousand Jews in Berlin had successfully posed as non-Jewish civilians in the city and survived.
1:37:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Stella ended up after the war serving twenty years in hard labor camps for her crimes.
1:37:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Alright, now we're going to jump to super villain team up numbers, sixteenth and seventeen.
1:37:40
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a crazy story.
1:37:41
[SPEAKER_02]: This is repeating the themes of it's very cartoony and comic booky, but the themes in this are rough.
1:37:47
[SPEAKER_02]: The red skull and the hate manga on the cover and by the way, the hate manga is the transplanted brain of Analf Hitler into a clone.
1:37:54
[SPEAKER_02]: of his own body.
1:37:55
[SPEAKER_02]: On the cover of a sixteen, they are torturing old men dressed in rags, who are inside a barbed wire fence while armed guards surround them.
1:38:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
1:38:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Peter Gillis and Carmine and Fentino give us a story called Shelly called the master.
1:38:07
[SPEAKER_02]: The hitmonger and the red skull are having a feast.
1:38:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Most tyrants would rather not be reminded that their power is focused on the oppression of others.
1:38:15
[SPEAKER_02]: They call themselves servants or protectors so they can sleep nights.
1:38:18
[SPEAKER_02]: These men know what they are, relish that oppression, and for their amusement display it most graphically.
1:38:23
[SPEAKER_02]: After dinner, the Red Skull strips off his shirt, practice his shooting bulls eyes with a gun and a knife, and then has a complex workout in the gym, and he's quite fit, even though he keeps his red mask on, and then he has a long cigarette as he rants on and on about his own work ethic.
1:38:38
[SPEAKER_02]: My enemies will not say, oh, the red skull is feeling poorly today.
1:38:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Let us not bother him, or poor score.
1:38:44
[SPEAKER_02]: He's getting old, let him succeed this time.
1:38:47
[SPEAKER_02]: The world is hard, and I must be harder than the world.
1:38:49
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I live the life of a soldier denying myself luxury and sentimentality.
1:38:54
[SPEAKER_02]: My foes allowed themselves all manner of pleasures, introspection, morality, the company of women that makes them soft, not eye.
1:39:01
[SPEAKER_02]: When the hate-monger notes that the red skull smells like a stable after his workout, the red skull said,
1:39:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It is the viral scent of Aryan sweat, my friend.
1:39:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's fops and danders, bridal at the smell of the true man.
1:39:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, wow.
1:39:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're back on the aisle of exiles and they give a Nazi salute to a group of marching soldiers who are shouting Seagheil.
1:39:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And they have captured a man named Yusuf Tulf.
1:39:27
[SPEAKER_02]: There are notorious hunter of war criminals and a Jewish person.
1:39:30
[SPEAKER_02]: And they've dressed him in lavish robes while placing a Nero detonator on his neck.
1:39:35
[SPEAKER_02]: To make the others the Jewish captured people who've been tortured into the slave pits on the island to make them think that Tove is a traitor to them Red Skull shows Tove the newly constructed Cyclotron that he is using to build his own cosmic cube He says I hope you are impressed Jew he says and he wants Tove to kill the hate manga for him
1:39:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, the eight-monger is busy painting a shirtless blonde man in a loincloth.
1:40:00
[SPEAKER_02]: This is how he passes his time-tating, beautiful blonde men.
1:40:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Use of twelve overcomes the guard, opens the gate up to the slave pens, and initially the captives who were trapped inside are afraid to rise up.
1:40:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But when they do, many of them are killed by the guards there.
1:40:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yusuf escapes on a boat, avoids the gunfire, ends up getting recaptured, and his girlfriend Rachel, who had been part of the Shinbet Commando team, has had her face cut.
1:40:25
[SPEAKER_02]: She's been tortured, likely sexually assaulted.
1:40:27
[SPEAKER_02]: She's choked a guard with her own hair in order to escape, and now she's working with shield, who feel hesitant to get involved in this conflict.
1:40:35
[SPEAKER_02]: until they look at Rachel's back and see it covered in waltz and scars.
1:40:39
[SPEAKER_02]: A fast forwarding, a black, aim agent named George Clinton, who was brought in to help with the cosmic cubary construction, as they are feeding the minds of the Jewish captives into their machines, the red skull is dramatically wondering why Hitler doesn't appreciate it more.
1:40:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Shield finally attacks.
1:40:56
[SPEAKER_02]: They blast through stupidly huge adamantium jaws that are meant to cover the island, and an army of red skull robots are present.
1:41:04
[SPEAKER_02]: But the hate manga makes Arnhem Zola transfer his mind into the cosmic cube, thinking it will grant him ultimate power.
1:41:10
[SPEAKER_02]: But surprise, it wasn't a cosmic cube at all.
1:41:13
[SPEAKER_02]: The red skull has built a new prison for Hitler's mind transferring his former mentor there so that he can achieve ultimate power.
1:41:20
[SPEAKER_02]: The end, this is a story that puts the red skull as the
1:41:23
[SPEAKER_02]: primary character in this two-parter, and it's a little bit rough.
1:41:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Let me welcome my dear friend Peter Sanderson back to the show to talk to me about this crazy journey.
1:41:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi Peter, what was it like for you to revisit Superville in team up,
1:41:38
[SPEAKER_07]: Well actually it was actually I enjoyed it because I had read it in years and it's such a really good two-part of icing.
1:41:46
[SPEAKER_07]: But a few things to get off my mind before just to refer back to your plot summary.
1:41:50
[SPEAKER_07]: One is Stella as the Chesa when you did your little introduction.
1:41:54
[SPEAKER_07]: Immediately reminds me of how Rachel Summers was once forced to hunt mutants.
1:42:00
[SPEAKER_07]: That was just like it powers.
1:42:02
[SPEAKER_07]: And I'm now wondering if Chris claim I actually knew about Chase's like Stella and that's why he counterised Rachel this way too.
1:42:09
[SPEAKER_07]: When you mentioned the hate manga admiring the smell, the masculine smell of the red skull and then painting beautiful young man.
1:42:20
[SPEAKER_07]: I am suddenly seeing a heroic subtext here that I hadn't spotted before.
1:42:26
[SPEAKER_07]: But the thing is that, you know, these two are like, there's so, there's so much talking about Mothdale, and Vrande of toxic masculinity, but they're probably completely unconscious of the act that they're actually, at least the side of gay, deep down.
1:42:41
[SPEAKER_02]: There is something very funny about the fascists surrounding themselves with armies of beautiful blonde boys.
1:42:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
1:42:46
[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's it's crazy every time.
1:42:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Now you knew some of the creators on this title I understand.
1:42:52
[SPEAKER_07]: Well, I sent a new Peter Gillis a long time friend long as I've been involved with a oh, even before I started became a comics professional I met him.
1:43:00
[SPEAKER_07]: And we both meant we came to college professionals has to weigh unfortunately a year ago after several years with all of us.
1:43:07
[SPEAKER_07]: But I feel that Peter in the in the eighties when he's working for model Peter out is best turned out really remarkable work and this super villain team up is an example of that and I don't think he's properly appreciated.
1:43:20
[SPEAKER_07]: He seems to have been forgotten.
1:43:21
[SPEAKER_07]: It's just unfair, and I'm trying to do my best, but whether through talking about him in my sub-stack column, well, I even proposed him for the Bill Finger Award in San Diego this year.
1:43:31
[SPEAKER_07]: And I've got to keep doing that until he finally gets some recognition, because he was really at his best.
1:43:37
[SPEAKER_07]: I really, really good writer and insightful into the standard Marvel character in ways that other writers were.
1:43:45
[SPEAKER_07]: We see this with this handling of the red sculpt.
1:43:47
[SPEAKER_07]: Well, first thing I want to talk about is when you describe the opening, the opening visual.
1:43:52
[SPEAKER_07]: Most red skull stories before this in the silver age and bronze age.
1:43:57
[SPEAKER_07]: Yes, he's a Nazi, but they never really got, they never got into Nazi anti-Semitism.
1:44:02
[SPEAKER_07]: And as far as I can tell, this is the first red skull story.
1:44:05
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm aware of that actually deals with the Holocaust.
1:44:08
[SPEAKER_07]: Because what there's a skull in the Hightmark, I have done, is they've created their own concentration camp on the aisles.
1:44:15
[SPEAKER_07]: We know, I mean, the two prisoners that we know of who are introduced to a spy name are both Jewish.
1:44:20
[SPEAKER_07]: And it's clear that they belong to an Israeli spy agency who are dry, who are like, you know, Nazi hunters.
1:44:28
[SPEAKER_07]: They're trying to bring the Red Skull and the hate manga to justice.
1:44:32
[SPEAKER_07]: That amazing visual image that Peter no doubt came up with and then come on executed so well.
1:44:38
[SPEAKER_07]: Oh, and I didn't mean come on infantino once.
1:44:40
[SPEAKER_07]: It's just it's such a shocking image because it's like these two happily having dinner.
1:44:45
[SPEAKER_07]: Well, well, all these captives are seen beneath them.
1:44:51
[SPEAKER_07]: reading the stories this time.
1:44:53
[SPEAKER_07]: What I immediately thought of was the sort of inference picture of Christy Nome with her what is it that's like a fifty thousand dollar watch.
1:45:00
[SPEAKER_07]: She was wearing standing in front of that jail cell in El Salvador with all these deported immigrants.
1:45:06
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
1:45:07
[SPEAKER_07]: See, like I said, this stuff does about Neo fascism and comics these days have taken on a new relevance under the current administration.
1:45:15
[SPEAKER_07]: So this is really groundbreaking story in dealing with the Red Skull.
1:45:19
[SPEAKER_07]: I don't know how much you know about the history of the hate manga.
1:45:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm intimately familiar, but please.
1:45:24
[SPEAKER_07]: Well, the hate market was introduced in an early issue of fantastic four by Stanley and Jack Kirby, who, of course, both Jewish Americans, both them is the world war two generation.
1:45:33
[SPEAKER_07]: In the course of the store, at the end of the story, the hate market is killed, and he's unmasked, and he looks like Adolf Hitler.
1:45:40
[SPEAKER_07]: And it's left ambiguity.
1:45:41
[SPEAKER_07]: It was just a real Hitler.
1:45:43
[SPEAKER_07]: Was this one of Hitler's fake infamous doubles?
1:45:46
[SPEAKER_07]: What's going on here?
1:45:47
[SPEAKER_07]: The hate market then turned up in issues of shield years later.
1:45:51
[SPEAKER_07]: Twice, and each time he was killed,
1:45:52
[SPEAKER_07]: What Peter has done, Peter Gilles is in writing this story.
1:45:55
[SPEAKER_07]: He, like myself, is very interested in the richness of moral continuity, trying to draw upon it.
1:46:01
[SPEAKER_07]: And I mean, there's all sorts of things in this story, whether it's the Isle of Exiles, which comes from a stand-in Jack-red skull story.
1:46:07
[SPEAKER_07]: So does that neural thing that they put in people's next control of them?
1:46:12
[SPEAKER_07]: The Overkill Horn from Seale Stories is all sorts of like, oh, and you're right about the Adam Antium being stupid in this story.
1:46:20
[SPEAKER_07]: Because I actually had to fix that in my whole universe, because there's just no adamantium is one thing.
1:46:26
[SPEAKER_07]: It's supposed to be rare.
1:46:27
[SPEAKER_07]: So to have these huge domes that can cover an island?
1:46:30
[SPEAKER_07]: No.
1:46:30
[SPEAKER_07]: And also, the whole point of adamantium is that it's richly indestructible.
1:46:35
[SPEAKER_07]: So no, I don't believe that the overhaul court, overkill, who I'm, could shatter it like that.
1:46:39
[SPEAKER_07]: So what I did was, with Mark Rumwald commission, I redefined the adamantium in the story is something called secondary adamantium, which is basically a cheap version.
1:46:49
[SPEAKER_07]: That isn't as good.
1:46:51
[SPEAKER_07]: Anyway, I think the story is and something else I noticed this time around was that Peter was also drawing upon the famous sixties by series the prisoner and doing this story because if you know the prisoner, you know that one of the things that happened and that's you know it's about Patrick and going as number six held in captive in this village, but he's not he's not like a prisoner he's given his given free reign basis
1:47:14
[SPEAKER_07]: of the villa.
1:47:14
[SPEAKER_07]: And this is sort of like the Israeli agent who's being treated well not held in captivity like the other not held in a prison cells like the others.
1:47:22
[SPEAKER_07]: Well, the things that happened over and over again in the prison was that the prison would try to escape and then and but the people who ran the village did these elaborate schemes to make him think that he had gotten away in an attempt.
1:47:35
[SPEAKER_07]: And these were what they wanted to do was they wanted to break his spirit without breaking his mind so that he can become there.
1:47:42
[SPEAKER_07]: Sir, he could serve some
1:47:43
[SPEAKER_07]: And you can see that this is, we've got a similar plot going on with what the red skull and the height maga trying to do to the such Israeli agent.
1:47:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a few themes Peter, let's take time to dissect them just for a few minutes.
1:47:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Number one, we have the red skull turning on the hate manga.
1:47:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I'd reference this on a previous little thing yet like this, but one of Hitler's top aides in his early career was a guy named Ernst Rome, who ran the Brown Shirts.
1:48:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Rome was obsessed with Aryans.
1:48:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Rome was also openly homosexual, and he was one of Hitler's hugest rises to power.
1:48:17
[SPEAKER_02]: In order for Hitler to win the support of the German military, he had to turn on Rome and had him assassinated and arrested along with several hundred other leaders of the Brown Shirts.
1:48:26
[SPEAKER_02]: in order to solidify his path to president and later fewer.
1:48:30
[SPEAKER_02]: So this seems to be kind of directly relevant to the Hitler Rome betrayal, where we have the Red School turning on the hate manga, who's obsessed with the blonde, pretty argued boys, right?
1:48:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's there's there seems to be some relevance there to history.
1:48:43
[SPEAKER_07]: Well, I don't know Peter what's up.
1:48:45
[SPEAKER_07]: And he's no longer with us.
1:48:46
[SPEAKER_07]: So we can't ask him.
1:48:47
[SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if he was aware of this particular person.
1:48:49
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm referring to him.
1:48:50
[SPEAKER_07]: But what I would say is that when Peter is drawing on the fact that, if you know the Red Skull's origin, that he was the slowly bellboy who happened to be serving Hitler one day, Hitler recognized something in this guy.
1:49:02
[SPEAKER_07]: He recognized that this bellboy was seething with hatred, and he saw he can mold him.
1:49:08
[SPEAKER_07]: And he's Hitler became this guy's mentor, and he turned him into what became the Red Skull.
1:49:13
[SPEAKER_07]: But so, and of course, as an Nazi, the Red Skull was inspired by him.
1:49:18
[SPEAKER_07]: And Hitler's philosophy as, but we have this Peter's point of contradiction here because in England, in the ever since the Red Skull was resurrected in the Silver Age, he's been out to conquer the world on his firm self.
1:49:31
[SPEAKER_07]: And so he runs into the hate manga, who is Hitler, Hitler's mind and a cloned body.
1:49:36
[SPEAKER_07]: He's meeting up with his partnering with his former mentor.
1:49:39
[SPEAKER_07]: He's partnering with his former leader, but as he makes clear, they're not trying to build a new cosmic cube and they're not going to share absolute power.
1:49:49
[SPEAKER_07]: Each one wants it for himself.
1:49:51
[SPEAKER_07]: The red skulls actually, and this is so interesting.
1:49:53
[SPEAKER_07]: This is also very interesting because usually the red skull in these stories is just a pure evil and it doesn't really have much dimension to them.
1:50:01
[SPEAKER_07]: But he actually is torn about the idea that he had marked that Hitler was his mentor, Hitler was his inspiration, and yet the Red Skull being who he is, cannot share power.
1:50:11
[SPEAKER_07]: He wants to be ensured.
1:50:13
[SPEAKER_07]: And so that's what this, this is what leads to essentially creating this trap for Hitler.
1:50:18
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, and trap for Hitler inside the inside this cosmic cube that didn't actually work.
1:50:23
[SPEAKER_07]: They were able to create the matrix that the cosmic cube is a matrix in which the form of cosmic energy, this all powerful cosmic energy is captured and the skulls experiment
1:50:34
[SPEAKER_07]: in creating a cosmic cube in the story.
1:50:36
[SPEAKER_07]: They were able to create the matrix, but not capture the energy.
1:50:40
[SPEAKER_07]: And so, he has Hitler's mind imprisoned within the cube, which makes for a really strong ending.
1:50:48
[SPEAKER_07]: And the skull sort of, you know, he got it as the necessity, but he still sort of sand about it.
1:50:53
[SPEAKER_07]: That's all I know, of course, by the way, since this is Marvel.
1:50:57
[SPEAKER_07]: And decades have passed since that stock, those stories were done.
1:51:00
[SPEAKER_07]: Of course, the hate manga's mind has escaped the queue.
1:51:03
[SPEAKER_07]: Right, right, right, right.
1:51:05
[SPEAKER_07]: He's going to bug with anyone.
1:51:06
[SPEAKER_07]: The Hitler hate manga has resurfaced time again.
1:51:09
[SPEAKER_07]: And John Bern wants to create a different character called the hate manga.
1:51:12
[SPEAKER_07]: No, next to the Hitler.
1:51:13
[SPEAKER_02]: So the second theme I'll toss out, uh, and then we'll start to wrap up our conversation is the ambivalence of shield to intervene, which very largely matches America during World War II.
1:51:23
[SPEAKER_02]: There was all these mornings, all these mornings of atrocities, but there was like, oh, we can't get involved until they finally see the scars down Rachel's back, right?
1:51:32
[SPEAKER_02]: We see these problems.
1:51:33
[SPEAKER_07]: I don't actually see them.
1:51:35
[SPEAKER_07]: I feel
1:51:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
1:51:36
[SPEAKER_02]: We see these prisoners really struggling, really suffering, being openly ignored.
1:51:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And then once shield attacks, they're just gunning down clones of the red skull clones of the hate-monger.
1:51:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Artem Zola's just pumping them out, right?
1:51:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And we see the evil die again, and again, but it just never goes away.
1:51:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So here's this brutality of these characters we've never seen again, who are treated so horribly and ignored, the atrocities ignored.
1:51:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And then once she'll get involved with the higher power, the evil can never quite be vanquished.
1:52:04
[SPEAKER_02]: All of this is balanced, of course, by the kind of really tragic heroic journey of use of Tove, who's also never shown up again in another comic.
1:52:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really jarring two-parter.
1:52:13
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very, it's very, very well done.
1:52:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, a lot of beautiful pieces, but it's like beautiful to see, too.
1:52:19
[SPEAKER_07]: And once again, it's like I feel that Peter's work has been unjustly ignored by Marvel, but people work for Marvel because as you say, they never brought back those two Israeli agents.
1:52:29
[SPEAKER_07]: They never, but you say about here, I had not thought of that the parallel here to the United States resisting interfering for so long against the Germans in World War II.
1:52:42
[SPEAKER_07]: or like, I mean, eventually the Americans did liberate the dust camps.
1:52:47
[SPEAKER_07]: What's like, I'm thinking of even more is the full world war, too.
1:52:50
[SPEAKER_07]: America wouldn't let so many Jewish refugees in the country.
1:52:55
[SPEAKER_07]: So we're living in the very same times.
1:52:57
[SPEAKER_07]: And now I mean, the current parallel is, again, all these, all these people who, you know, Trump, Trump and his supporters and his accolites who are allowing these immigrants to be imprisoned in other countries.
1:53:11
[SPEAKER_02]: removing their rights, removing their ability to work, removing their ability to stay in the country even when they've been naturalized.
1:53:17
[SPEAKER_07]: And the fact that a great public and party will not do anything about this.
1:53:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:53:21
[SPEAKER_02]: The stuff I opened with about Stella and her family is getting slowly getting to rights taken away over time.
1:53:27
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's, that's, it's a jarring parallel.
1:53:29
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I know you're working really hard to keep history alive.
1:53:32
[SPEAKER_02]: You're, you're, you're a post, all the time.
1:53:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to talk a little bit about the post you've been doing regarding fascism lately?
1:53:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they're very impressive.
1:53:39
[SPEAKER_07]: Oh, well, this is not a post.
1:53:42
[SPEAKER_07]: That makes it sound like it's on Facebook.
1:53:45
[SPEAKER_07]: No, what I've done is since February, I've been this, I used to write a blog years and years ago.
1:53:50
[SPEAKER_07]: I started up again in February for some stack, which gives me a really high profile.
1:53:56
[SPEAKER_07]: You know, there's so many famous people who are right for some stacks.
1:53:59
[SPEAKER_07]: So I'm hoping I get to see that more and more people will get to see these columns.
1:54:03
[SPEAKER_07]: And I look upon this as this is like this is my duty to myself and to the me comics medium in my senior year.
1:54:10
[SPEAKER_07]: I want to leave a legacy of art expressing my opinions about what other great comics and why.
1:54:15
[SPEAKER_07]: And also part of this is, I see it as a duty to memorialize, comment creators on my generation and say, pass away.
1:54:23
[SPEAKER_07]: So I've written about Peter Gillis.
1:54:25
[SPEAKER_07]: I recently wrote about Peter David.
1:54:27
[SPEAKER_07]: I just posted a new call about Jim Schuter.
1:54:30
[SPEAKER_07]: But in terms of the self-surprise, I didn't realize that this
1:54:33
[SPEAKER_07]: that these, that my, uh, some stack was going to turn political the way that it had, but I've been, I think it's, it started when I, the new Daredevil born again, series started on Disney Plus, which draws from the comics in that it portrays the king pen, a known criminal, as well as a wealthy man.
1:54:51
[SPEAKER_07]: becoming mayor of New York City, and simultaneously simultaneously in the comics, you have this storyline, one world under Doom, I think it's called, and it's about Dr. Doom finally becoming the monarch of Earth, and in both the digital stories and about the Kingpin as mayor, and this story about Doom taking over Earth, the point is made that people allow this to
1:55:15
[SPEAKER_07]: happen, that the people in New York voted knowingly for the kingpin of criminals, that the people of the late, the leaders of the nations of Eros, ceded their power to Dr. Doom willingly.
1:55:25
[SPEAKER_07]: This, they bind stability at the price of their own freedom.
1:55:29
[SPEAKER_07]: This connects to something I've been wondering about, which is that, well, for example, there was, I mentioned this in one of my, one of the columns, about how in the seventies, Steve Engelhardt and Captain America did the secret empire storyline, which was a, an obvious analogy to the Watergate scandals, and to
1:55:44
[SPEAKER_07]: and to Nixon's grasp for power.
1:55:46
[SPEAKER_07]: I've been wondering why is it that nobody is nobody doing this about Trump, but then I look at stories like the one about, you know, Marvel television designed to do this storyline about the Kingpin as mayor or the comics doing this storyline about doom taking over the world.
1:56:02
[SPEAKER_07]: And I'm realizing that these are sort of analogies and commentary on Trump without using his name.
1:56:09
[SPEAKER_02]: The Netflix series, The House of Usher by Ed Dr. Alan Poe, they also work in major Trump parallels as they redo that story.
1:56:20
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of all over the place actually, but the Red Skull's kind of the stand-in for all of this in Marvel Comics consistently, right?
1:56:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, even he's involved in these more recent versions, Dr. Doom is evil, but he's not the Red Skull, you know?
1:56:32
[SPEAKER_07]: No, no, actually this is this is a story I read about recently in which Reed Richards points out that Dr. Doom doesn't hate any race.
1:56:41
[SPEAKER_07]: He doesn't hate any group of people that wears the red skull.
1:56:45
[SPEAKER_07]: And again, this is what Pete Peter was making clear in the supervillain team up, which hadn't really been made explicit in previous stories about the red skull is that he is such a racist and anti-Sumide and it believes in exterminating all the groups of people.
1:57:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Peter Sanderson, I think you're amazing.
1:57:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I am an enormous Peter Gillis fan.
1:57:04
[SPEAKER_02]: He has run on defenders.
1:57:06
[SPEAKER_02]: It was seminal for me.
1:57:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I will be celebrating it on the show forever.
1:57:10
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.
1:57:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Because of cloud, right?
1:57:12
[SPEAKER_02]: With no, you know, not just cloud.
1:57:14
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a lot of queer content in that run on defenders and it really pushes some themes.
1:57:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm a huge old Marvel head, right?
1:57:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love that.
1:57:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
1:57:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And Carmine and Fantino's work on early Spider-Women stuff is just semil in my brain as well.
1:57:27
[SPEAKER_02]: I think both of them... Well, come on, come on.
1:57:28
[SPEAKER_07]: Because I'm old with you.
1:57:30
[SPEAKER_07]: I can't put my calm mind because it's work on a flash.
1:57:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
1:57:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:57:34
[SPEAKER_02]: It is excellent talking to you anytime and every time.
1:57:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for joining me with me for this conversation.
1:57:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Much like you are doing the sub-stacks, these conversations feel about, you know, my way of kind of fighting back as we draw on these parallels and see them so clearly portrayed
1:57:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's fifteen years later and not much has changed as far as nationalism goes, which is a crazy thing to realize.
1:57:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:57:55
[SPEAKER_07]: Well, thank you and I feel free to get in touch with me to talk any time you like.
1:58:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I would love to.
1:58:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
1:58:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing your extreme wisdom and insight.
1:58:04
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy to see you at any time in every time I try.
1:58:07
[SPEAKER_07]: Thank you.
1:58:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Alright, everybody.
1:58:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening.
1:58:09
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see you back here next time.
1:58:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for listening to Grimalk and Lane.
1:58:14
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1:58:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Grimalk and Lane is produced and recorded in Salt Lake City, Utah with music and editing done by my husband, Michael Bell, and promo art done by the incredible Seth Martell.
1:58:26
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1:58:49
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