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Spiritual Warfare or Just Anxiety? A Biblical Reality Check · Relish: a Christian podcast

• 0:00
  So we've opened a portal, if you will, through our technology to what Satan wants to do with us.
• 0:07
  He starts talking about the behemoth and the leviathan and the fishhook.
• 0:12
  Those exact words are what God gave me in one of the most traumatic periods of my life.
• 0:17
  And God showed up and said, I've got you.
• 0:23
  Relish. Pleasing or zestful flavor. a quantity just sufficient to flavor,
• 0:28
  to be pleased or gratified by, enjoy.
• 0:31
  We are hoping that what we bring to your table today might add some spice to your life.
• 0:37
  Welcome back to another episode of Relish. Continuing on from our last one,
• 0:42
  we got Corbin Weaver Bushart again on my right, and Don Patterson is always on my left.
• 0:47
  Always. And we'll be, yep, always.
• 0:51
  But you're on my right then, you know, if I'm on your left. My right hand guy.
• 0:55
  Even the same order over here.
• 0:57
  Yeah. Continuing with the questions from the Hillcrest Chapel and the.
• 1:01
  You want to show into those? You want this one? We can get that one. But.
• 1:05
  What was one tough situation in your life that ended up being a blessing in disguise?
• 1:12
  Hmm.
• 1:18
  You got it, Corwin? Well, I'm sure there's a lot. the one that comes to mind uh,
• 1:28
  First is from, I did five years of pastoring in Northwest Ohio,
• 1:32
  and I wasn't at that congregation for more than a month, I think,
• 1:38
  before just a lot of conflict boiled over,
• 1:43
  stuff that had been kind of building up.
• 1:46
  Fortunately, it wasn't over my appointment, and people were very gracious with
• 1:52
  me, but it was just a hard time, maybe a hard thing to step into.
• 1:56
  I had other pastors to work with through that, but I don't know that I've seen
• 2:03
  anything quite like congregational conflict to just sort of suck the air and the spirit out of a room.
• 2:10
  And you just have these moments, the longer it goes on where you wonder,
• 2:15
  is this ever going to end?
• 2:18
  Is it always going to be? How are we going to get out of this?
• 2:22
  And yet just sticking with it, being present, working through mediation and
• 2:28
  sitting in rooms together, praying through it,
• 2:32
  preaching through it, teaching through it, the place that God brought our congregation
• 2:37
  on the other end of that, quite whole.
• 2:41
  And yet with a much deeper sense of who we were, how God's grace is at work
• 2:46
  within us, what our sense of call as a congregation is, that was very moving.
• 2:53
  That to me was a testament of how God can use hard or even bad things for good.
• 2:59
  So long answer, but that's the first thing that came to mind. That's similar to me.
• 3:04
  You want to go next? Sure. I think so. I was just, just something that happened
• 3:08
  recently over this last year, but I think when my dad became the interim head
• 3:14
  of school and now the, uh, forget what, is it just head of school?
• 3:20
  Um, he, there was a lot of, yeah. In the summer, he was...
• 3:27
  He had about a month to learn how to do the job, and so he was gone all the time.
• 3:33
  And then even after he had fully taken over the role, then he was just gone
• 3:40
  all the time, and I have baseball.
• 3:41
  And so he's gone in the morning before I would wake up, and then wouldn't see
• 3:47
  him in the evening again until after baseball was over, which if it's an away
• 3:51
  game, it's like 11 o'clock at night.
• 3:53
  So, yeah, just a lot of time away from the family.
• 3:58
  But I think what he's done for the school, and I think it's been a blessing.
• 4:06
  I would agree. I would agree.
• 4:08
  For myself, transition and conflict in congregation, and I had a wonderful congregation
• 4:15
  that I probably would have gone, stayed at forever and ever,
• 4:19
  as long as I possibly could.
• 4:22
  But the way things happened, I left, and now I'm here.
• 4:27
  And this podcast wouldn't be happening if that transition hadn't happened.
• 4:33
  And so God has a way of working even the toughest times into blessings if we allow it.
• 4:40
  But we sort of have to keep our eyes on the right things when those are happening.
• 4:45
  Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned before,
• 4:46
  not too many people pastor at three churches in the same community.
• 4:50
  But that's true and that's true yeah that's god's doing that's not done that's god's doing,
• 4:59
  i'm glad to be part of it you know but i'm you know yeah it's god's doing kind
• 5:06
  of continuing with a couple of the last questions from the last episode okay
• 5:10
  can say in control how we feel or if we get sick.
• 5:16
  Now, we know from Job's experience that God can sometimes give him a way to
• 5:23
  affect our body, illness, that still lies under the oppression and possession piece.
• 5:32
  So, if we're in Christ and he can only oppress those, he cannot go any farther
• 5:38
  than God allows him to go.
• 5:40
  Even at that, he can't go if we give it up.
• 5:45
  And so he can only control basically what we give him the space to control between us and God.
• 5:55
  And so when we agree with God and that's cast out to the side, that's done.
• 6:04
  I'll go back to the first part of the question. Can he control how we feel? Yeah.
• 6:09
  Okay. The feeling part, that's interesting because it's the same concept,
• 6:14
  but now it rules in the mind.
• 6:17
  And so, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim.
• 6:21
  Oh, the other half of church. Jim. Jim.
• 6:27
  The other half, like sits on the other side? Well, it's the book,
• 6:31
  The Other Half of Church.
• 6:31
  And he's the author. And he talks about the fact that through healing prayer,
• 6:37
  through bringing things to God, we can actually rewire the neuropathways in our head.
• 6:46
  And why can't I remember his name? Anyway, we'll see, maybe put it in the comments afterwards.
• 6:54
  But he is able to work with us in such a way that we pray new neural pathways
• 7:01
  so that we can rewire our frontal lobe where those feelings are and those responses,
• 7:08
  immediate responses to things around us, we can rewire.
• 7:13
  I found that's very helpful for people who are in anxiety.
• 7:18
  It can actually, that stronghold can be broken.
• 7:22
  So can Satan get there? He can only get there, especially if it's a Christian
• 7:28
  we're working with, if it's space that we have one way or another been contrived into giving up.
• 7:36
  And he can oppress us that way, but we can take that territory back.
• 7:45
  That's a short answer. Yeah. One thing I find interesting about the topic of
• 7:53
  Satan and how we talk about Satan in the church these days,
• 7:57
  I think a lot of it does come out of, as much as anything,
• 8:01
  it's anecdotal experience of Christians throughout history and tradition of
• 8:05
  the spirit. spiritual world.
• 8:07
  Um, it's, it's also rooted in scripture.
• 8:11
  Um, but I'm always struck by, by how little, uh, insight behind the,
• 8:17
  the veil or behind the curtain we're given to a lot of the spiritual,
• 8:21
  uh, we sometimes talk about as spiritual warfare matters.
• 8:24
  Um, and, and, and yet we're, we're equipped with what we need,
• 8:30
  uh, to withstand, uh, the trials or, or any, um, what we You might say attacks
• 8:36
  or aggressions of the enemy,
• 8:39
  again, by rooting our identity in Christ, by agreeing with God about his kingdom,
• 8:43
  about who we are, what our role is, that we have a place and a purpose in it.
• 8:49
  But with the feeling piece, I appreciated that perspective from Paul.
• 8:56
  Jim so-and-so. Jim Wilder. Jim Wilder. Great. Jim Wilder, the other half of church.
• 9:01
  Yeah, I think that's super helpful and encouraging for us to,
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  and I think of like a Jonathan Haidt who recently wrote The Anxious Generation about,
• 9:08
  you mentioned anxiety, and there's a place for counseling and therapy and all this stuff,
• 9:15
  but even a secular commentator Like Jonathan Haidt, who's wrote this very popular
• 9:23
  book about the impact of technology and screens and devices on our current generation,
• 9:30
  is pretty quick to say that a spiritual practice,
• 9:35
  a spiritual perspective is going to be one of the biggest antidotes to,
• 9:41
  he says anxiety, but insert, you know.
• 9:47
  Anything else? Yeah. Heart malady. Right.
• 9:52
  And, and, so. And, you know, in my generation, we have very little.
• 10:00
  Appreciation for the fact that a piece of technology could actually give a opening
• 10:06
  for Satan to affect our lives.
• 10:09
  Machinery is machinery. I mean, I grew up with John Deere tractors.
• 10:13
  Machinery is machinery.
• 10:14
  But our technology today and the fact that our eyes are a gate that Satan can use.
• 10:25
  I mean, Jesus talks about it in chapter 5 of Matthew that, you know,
• 10:30
  Our eyes do affect us, and lust can come through our eyes, and that's part of
• 10:37
  that technology, but not the whole.
• 10:40
  And so we've opened a portal, if you will, through our technology to what Satan
• 10:45
  wants to do with us and how he wants to control us.
• 10:50
  Uh so i'm i'm
• 10:53
  impressed with guys your age who are
• 10:56
  willing to give up like uh different parts
• 11:00
  of their technology social media just to
• 11:03
  control that piece so that they aren't so easily
• 11:06
  influenced that way so kudos to those
• 11:09
  who are willing to take that device and say hey i'm not going to be influenced
• 11:13
  by that because it is an opening yeah got one more guy i you and i both know
• 11:21
  corb might know him too but that joined us yesterday doing that so praise the lord yes.
• 11:28
  Good job. Give you a pat on the back.
• 11:31
  Specifically, you guys are giving up certain, you're drawing boundaries around
• 11:36
  your cell phone usage or screen. Yeah.
• 11:38
  Well, I don't, I've never had any social media, so I haven't been like removing it, but there's.
• 11:45
  That was parental ordained, right? Right, right, at the start.
• 11:48
  And then I don't even think I want them now.
• 11:51
  But yeah, some other guys have done the same thing and had him for a little
• 11:56
  bit or took him off recently or whatever.
• 11:59
  And it's amazing what it changes. Yeah. Yeah.
• 12:03
  I just want to make sure you guys know that that's a good move.
• 12:08
  And I not only appreciate it, but want to encourage you in that. Thanks. Yeah.
• 12:16
  I'll take credit for this next question. This is a Rowan question,
• 12:20
  so that means we've got to brace ourselves.
• 12:22
  In Bible class with Corbin, we did.
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  Spent, I think, three days on, picked an Old Testament book and spent three
• 12:31
  days reading it and just getting to know it better.
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  And I had Job.
• 12:41
  So there's been a lot of mention about Job lately. But did Job know that God
• 12:47
  had talked with Satan to put Job to the test?
• 12:52
  We don't have anything in the text that would say that.
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  There is nothing in the text that says, okay, God let Job know.
• 13:00
  No, all the conversation between Satan and God was separate from Job.
• 13:07
  Job was living in the moment, just like we do, and realizing that at one moment
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  he was this guy with his kids.
• 13:14
  And and uh riches and lots of camels and cows and and sheep and all of a sudden
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  uh whoa kids are gone the riches are gone it's just him and he says naked i
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  came into the world naked i'll go,
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  and uh ends up saying praise the lord anyway.
• 13:37
  You know, that's the way I remember it. Yeah.
• 13:41
  And even when Satan says, oh, he still has his health, you attack his body,
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  then we'll see what happens.
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  And Job isn't privy to that conversation at all.
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  And somehow he still retains his faith.
• 13:57
  I think that's probably the hallmark of Job, the book of Job,
• 14:01
  is the fact, regardless, irregardless, regardless of anything that happened around him.
• 14:07
  He knew who he was in light of who God is.
• 14:11
  And he lived it. Even when his wonderful friends come and make those really
• 14:17
  squirrely arguments, although they're arguments that we probably would make, many of them.
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  And given his life situation, what was happening, he still keeps his faith.
• 14:29
  And he still keeps his identity of who he is in light of who God is, even towards the end.
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  And then God, of course, in 39 and 40 sort of says, so you think you are this guy?
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  And he sort of brings him down to earth a little bit.
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  But even so, he is penitent. He's before the Lord.
• 14:55
  Yeah, he does not have privy to that conversation. That was a long answer to
• 15:00
  a short question, wasn't it?
• 15:02
  I'm curious. So in this case, we have the question asker here.
• 15:07
  Yeah. So what do you think was, what motivated that question?
• 15:13
  What caused you to think about it? How'd you get there?
• 15:15
  I wrote it down back when I was looking at it.
• 15:19
  So I can't quite remember, but yeah.
• 15:24
  Because it makes me wonder, probably reflecting back on one of her first questions
• 15:30
  in this episode too, was...
• 15:35
  How does Satan work? And what are we given to know about that?
• 15:40
  What are we given to see about that?
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  How do we know if or when or how Satan is doing something or how spiritual evil
• 15:47
  is maybe taking more aggressive tactics or being allowed to by God?
• 15:53
  But and again, it is one of those maybe frustrating parts of our humanity,
• 16:00
  our mortality, our finiteness that we don't get to know. We don't always get
• 16:06
  those peeks behind the curtain.
• 16:08
  As readers, we're given a peek behind the curtain of the story in Job and maybe
• 16:13
  invited in that sense to reflect on our unknowingness in our own situations.
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  And I don't know what's happening behind the veil, what God's purposes are in
• 16:27
  any kind of evil or suffering that's happening in the world or in my life. But...
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  I can trust that God is there. Yes. God is actually in control.
• 16:40
  And God is going to see me through faithfully and keep inviting me and encouraging
• 16:46
  me to be, to be faithful to the good life that he has offered.
• 16:52
  Yeah. But I think part of what the question might've came from was,
• 16:56
  so basically what I watched the Bible project video,
• 17:01
  what they were saying on it was that Job was saying that he hadn't sinned,
• 17:08
  he hadn't done anything wrong,
• 17:09
  so then therefore God is an unjust God.
• 17:12
  And that was kind of his first take. And then his friends came and they were
• 17:17
  saying, well, we know God is a just God, so therefore you have sinned somewhere.
• 17:23
  And then Elihu comes along and kind of says, um, God is a just God,
• 17:29
  but we, we don't have like the context that God has and we don't have the wisdom
• 17:36
  and the whole sovereign power of the world.
• 17:39
  And so then therefore we like, we can't determine, um, um,
• 17:45
  Like what the cause of this was and anything like that.
• 17:49
  But I think what might've sprung the question was like Satan wasn't necessarily
• 17:55
  ever mentioned in any of those statements, I guess as to why it would have happened.
• 18:03
  And not mentioned by any of the other council. Right. Job was getting and you're correct. Right.
• 18:08
  So I think if like they weren't even considering the fact necessarily that it
• 18:13
  was Satan. So I kind of was thinking that he wasn't aware that it could have been Satan.
• 18:23
  And from his response, you're correct. You're correct. He doesn't mention Satan at all.
• 18:29
  And the whole book then does just keep kind of pushing us to open our minds
• 18:35
  broader and broader and broader to the transcendent sovereignty of God and his vision.
• 18:40
  So we get to the whirlwind and so many humbling messages that we get in those pages.
• 18:51
  But I'm thinking especially about the moments where God says,
• 18:55
  he starts talking about the behemoth and the leviathan and the fishhook.
• 18:59
  That he can take this sort of elemental beast of chaos that is often compared
• 19:07
  to the Satan figure in scripture and that he can just put a hook in the cheek
• 19:12
  of the Leviathan and wave it around.
• 19:16
  And yet that's just one in a series of explanations that he could give to Job.
• 19:23
  Right. But does he have to?
• 19:26
  Do I have to do this? Do I have to do that?
• 19:30
  And yeah, it's kind of a beautiful insight into just the manifold wisdom and
• 19:36
  sovereignty of God. Amen.
• 19:40
  Yeah. I even have a note here. Chapter 41, Leviathan, picture of Satan. There you go. Yep.
• 19:49
  Nice. I have colorful things. So, Job, just one possible explanation is the
• 19:56
  one that actually did kick off this story, but think of all the others that it could be.
• 20:00
  And, you know, I love you. I've got you. Yeah.
• 20:07
  Yeah. Those exact words are what God gave me in one of the most traumatic periods of my life.
• 20:14
  And God showed up and said, I've got you. I got you.
• 20:21
  Not meaning, I got you, but I got this. Yeah.
• 20:27
  That's a comfort when God shows up and gives us those words of counsel. Right.
• 20:33
  Well, I think that about does it. Well, we're that one out. Okay.
• 20:40
  Yeah. That was good kind of diving into the book of Job there.
• 20:42
  It was good. Yeah, it was good. Good question, Roland. Yeah. Well done.
• 20:48
  All righty. Well, thank you guys for joining us. Let us know if you have any
• 20:51
  other questions or maybe some feedback for us.
• 20:55
  But hope you enjoyed, and we'll see you next time. Lord willing.
• 21:00
  Thank you for joining us for this podcast. feel free to become part of this
• 21:03
  ministry by sharing it with others.
• 21:05
  Our goal is to help each other grow deeper in our understanding of who God is
• 21:09
  and His calling to us in our daily lives.
• 21:11
  Thank you again for joining us, and may God bless your day.