Latest / Dumb Defenses / 8. Sovereign Citizens, part 3

Transcript

8. Sovereign Citizens, part 3 · Dumb Defenses

• Frankie: Hello and welcome back to the Dumb Defenses podcast, where we go around the world and through time to bring you the weirdest legal theories. I'm Frankie. And we are in week three of three. We are wrapping up our mini-series on sovereign citizens, aka constitutionalists, but don't tell them that. they hate it. They hate it when they get called constitutionalists. Judah: I'm Judah. Ha ha. That's why I'll call them constitutionalists. Frankie: last week we were talking a lot about the pseudo legal paper terrorism filings. and this week I've got a few other notes regarding their interactions with the law. Judah: And then we're gonna wrap up with an actual sovereign citizen. Frankie: Big air quotes around sovereign. Judah: Nope, not according to the people and the historians of San Francisco. Frankie: All right. So sort of alluded to this last week, but with all of the opinions that the sovereign citizens have, it's probably not surprising that physical violence is a huge risk when interacting with law enforcement. We discussed the Bundies and their standoffs a couple of weeks ago. and that is one example of how things can turn violent, either with shootoffs, standouts, or sometimes even murders. going in the semi-wayback machine, if people remember Terry Nichols and the Oklahoma City bombings in the nineties, I was in Grade school. definitely one of the core memories of my childhood. But there was some rumblings that he was engaged in sovereign citizen activities, and that that may or may not have led to his choices. Sovereign citizens have also been known to stalk or even threaten government officials who they feel have wronged them. Last week we talked about how they use the legal system to make false civil claims, try to steal their houses, things like that. But one example is in 2021, Misty Thompson, who is a sovereign citizen, was stalking a local judge who was in charge of her child custody case. And when she was arrested, she had a loaded handgun, knives, and a baseball bat. in her car. It is not uncommon for these people to be armed, and it is especially not uncommon for them to be armed with firearms. And of course, not licensed, because any sort of licensure is a contract with the state to get back under the slavery that the direct treasury account purchased them out of, I think. If we're remembering back over the three weeks that we've been doing this. Judah: Psh. Frankie: They will actually seek to instigate violence with law enforcement, threatening to shoot police officers who gave them a ticket. And at the very least, most traffic stops become confrontational and easily peak to violence. And these guys tend to have traffic stops because they have the fake license plates, because again, they don't enter into contracts with the state lest they be brought back under state slavery. because they are frequently armed, these traffic stops could potentially turn deadly if they begin to get into a shootout with the officers. An example of them engaging in violence after a limited slight was in twenty twenty one Joseph Cataranu attacked a bailiff for being denied bail and then fought with the judge and the prosecutor who tried to help the bailiff. Yeah. that's a Judah: Ooh. Frankie: pretty big brawl. I'm guessing that this was in an area that does not function the way Oregon does, where the people who are in custody are held in a little box or on video. this looks like some place where people are actually brought into the courtroom. and I should say If somebody is in a later phase in their case, they are brought into the actual courtroom in most cases in Oregon. I'm actually a little bit surprised that the judge got in on the fight, to be perfectly honest. I'm pretty sure that OJD trains them to just like bounce into their chambers, but that may not be something that happens everywhere. Judah: there's a pretty famous video from Lynn County Courthouse, which PS recently had a guy sitting outside with a gun that was threatening to come in and shoot people, a multiple hour standoff, and they still don't have court security posted. Yeah, you can walk straight in that courthouse. Frankie: that's frightening. It used to be that way in Polk, and it was something that everybody who worked there was complaining about. And especially like my office door when it closed, you needed a badge to get into. But it was a very flimsy, like you lean on it and it moves wall away from the public hallway. And I heard that Judah: Yeah. Frankie: Maybe like a month ago they finally got court security. Judah: so this this sidebar standoff so our Albany office is kind of kitty corner away from the Lynn County Courthouse. Very convenient for us, but there was a standoff for multiple hours. And my law partner, Melissa, was just sitting in her office trying to do work, including a court appearance, which she was covering for me, because I was out. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judah: And then there's this huge armed standoff, and she's she can't leave the office. She's stuck in there. She's in a hearing in Benton County, which you know there's one county over, and she just hears BOOM. And there was all kinds of rumors flying around about like, does this person have a bomb? And you know, people are freaking out, and is she like, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Judah: Judge, I need to take a moment. I'm near this arm standoff and I just heard a loud explosion. And the judge is like, my gosh, do you need to get off this hearing? And it turns out that one of the multiple law enforcement agencies that was responding shot a flashbang into this guy's car and then pulled him out when he was all disoriented. Yeah. Frankie: Ha ha ha. Mm-hmm. mean that's one way to do it, but Judah: But but the real thing is like there's video and you can look it at the Lynn County Courthouse that wound up on a T V show of there was a yeah, there was a defendant, his mother and the defense attorney and court staff that were waiting for the judge to come in and the defendant gets extremely agitated and then attacks his mom, attacks the court staff, and winds up getting tackled to the ground by his own defense counsel. Frankie: If we'll we'll link it in the show notes once we find it. Yeah. Judah: so Frankie: I can see that happening. People like people run from court, right? Because they hear they're going into custody, whatever. And I remember one of our colleagues contemplating tripping somebody who looked like they were about to run. Judah: Ha ha ha. Frankie: I was like, that's that's a choice. He didn't, but just one of those like that's a lawsuit Judah: Yeah, I found it on YouTube from the Mid Valley Media Group, Lynn County Courtroom Outburst. Frankie: we will post that in the show notes. because that kind of thing doesn't happen frequently, but when it does, it's pretty entertaining so long as you're not in the middle of it. Judah: I mean in court, I've been bitten. I had a client run off so fast he left his shoes behind and then just got clothes lined by court security at the door. But I've never had a fight. Frankie: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. No, never had anything of that happen. I've had somebody faint pretty hard. Not on me, thankfully, but next to me. so having jail medical run up to the courtroom is a bit of a spectacle. Judah: I think what I like the best in court you know when I'm in there is when my kid clients are there and they're like just tiny agents of chaos, like wandering around. I was in an adoption and my client was almost too super cute. And she was getting adopted that day. Lovely ceremony, family very happy, clap, clap, clap. She breaks free from her mom. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Goes to the judge and just goes, Grandpa up. Grandpa up and the judge is like, You got it, kiddo. Whoop Frankie: That's adorable. That's super adorable. Judah: It was so cute. Frankie: I love adoption ceremonies. Judah: yeah, it was it was wonder I mean, all the adoption ceremonies I've ever been to are really wonderful, but you know, just a happy, beautiful day, the whole family's so happy and you know. Frankie: Yeah. Yeah. Less happy things in Sovereign Citizen Land, but Yeah. Judah: Okay, yeah, less happy things. Frankie: the figureheads also tend to find themselves in trouble with the law. They're the ones perpetuating all this bullshit. And they also live it as well. So James Timothy Turner led the Republic of the United States of America. The U is little because of the whole not capitalizing things. Judah: shit. Rolling my eyes. Frankie: Yep. in 2018 he was sentenced to 18 years for fraud and conspiracy. The underlying illegal actions should sound familiar to anybody who's been listening. Leading seminars on how to utilize documents like bills of exchange to pay off taxes, mortgages, and other debts. as you remember from a couple of weeks ago, these bills of exchange were the things that they used to tap into their Treasury Direct account, which the IRS put aside in the amount of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. And that's how they pay their taxes, is they just write, sort of like a deemed paid type thing so that they can just Say like, you guys already have this money, so just use it to pay yourself. Not actually a thing. I was gonna say I feel like you have opinions on this. Judah: I mean I've got so many opinions. what really riles me up is like it's one thing to like try and cheat the feds. Or like the government. But these people are are going after vulnerable citizens, taking their houses, cheating them out of property, and Frankie: Mm. Mm. Judah: all around being a menace. Frankie: Yep. Yep. And another example of that is James T. McBride, who is leader of Divine Province. was convicted in twenty fourteen for a scheme where he was selling diplomatic identification documents that would allegedly prevent recipients from being arrested. He had earned five hundred thousand dollars in that scheme. Yes. Judah: Half a million dollars. Frankie: Cheating people out of half a million dollars claiming that they would not be arrested. Which again is bullshit. Cause they have no control over law enforcement. Judah: And it's And it's forgery, fraud, w what am I missing? Probably conspiracy to commit fraud. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Judah: Maybe impersonating a public official Frankie: yeah. the exact charges weren't listed out. I was just looking at sort of like a list of various things that people have been charged with and and this was just a big old hunk of money that they talked about. So Bruce Dulcet, who is also one of the gurus, was sentenced to 38 years for racketeering tax evasion. retaliation against judges and more. And Winston Shrout was sentenced to ten years for tax evasion and fictitious financial documents. So eventually, yes, the law will catch up to these people. It may take time, but eventually it'll happen. one thing that has helped their ideology spread quite a bit has of course been social media. In recent years they've been able to spread their ideologies to new audiences, including anti-vaxxers, QAnon, and MAGA. Judah: Yeah, I feel like if there wa if this was a Venn diagram it'd be a circle. Frankie: Be a circle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the QAnon, anti-vaxxers, MAGA, s sovereign citizens, those all overlap quite a bit. So it's not surprising that those groups also sort of fall into this kind of mindset. Also makes sense the overlap between the sovereign citizens and MAGA makes a lot of sense with the case that Judah talked about last week. How They were cheering on the overturning of Chevron Deference without realizing that it was just consolidating power into one person. One branch well, yeah, it can kinda. It's two branches, but SCOTUS is in the president's pocket. it's also spreading throughout jails and prisons in this country, with jailhouse lawyers making things complicated for their attorneys. Judah: Well one branch. Kinda. Frankie: the figureheads and gurus of the movement will use social media to spread the word as well as distribute these fraudulent documents and pseudo-legal documents that are the basis of the movement and also the basis of them getting arrested themselves, apparently. It allows them to profit from this merchandise and from the ideology to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, as we have seen. The COVID-19 pandemic on top of social media did not help things in terms of keeping this contained. The safety measures triggered by the pandemic surged a new interest in the sovereign citizen movement, and some of these overlapping ideals between sovereign citizens and other groups like QAnon and extremist groups and the anti-vaxxers all came together really during the pandemic. They came in it together on social media in anti-lockdown activism, and that's how the language of the sovereign citizens started spreading, including the desire to hold public officials accountable in common law courts for all of the things that they were trying to do to prevent people from dying from COVID. Again, it makes sense that all of these things kind of fall together. Conspiracy theory, hands off my property, we don't want to answer to the government, we don't want the government telling us what to do. All those things really do line up together. Judah: Side note, I just googled this, about one point one million people in the United States died of COVID, innumerable more have lifelong disabilities as a result of the illness. Frankie: Yep. Yep. Yeah, it could have been so different. But I digress. social media has also helped people bring together militia groups, including things like the J6 riot. and many of those people were also identified as sovereign citizens. While groups like Oath Keepers, Three Percenters, Citizens for Constitutional Freedom, which was Ammon Bundy's group. Are not officially sovereign citizen groups, they share a lot of the same ideologies and fall under the same umbrella of anti-government extremism. So, again, a lot of far right, a lot of just not liking the idea of government telling them what to do and trying to stick it to the government all coming from the same place. in the last Judah: Only three thousand people in the entire country of New Zealand d have died of COVID. Three thousand. Frankie: Yeah, like I said, it could be it could have been totally different. New Zealand, they were able to really stop the spread of it before the vaccine came out because they just shut everybody down. even if you were traveling and you weren't a citizen of New Zealand, you were on vacation, you were stuck there. And right. they put in really strict shelter at home rules. Judah: Yeah, congratulations on being in New Zealand now. Frankie: They put in really stringent contact tracing and so they were able to just keep it from spreading before the vaccine came out. Judah: And because their country's borders closed down, they were able to reopen their country pretty normally a lot sooner than the US was. Frankie: Yeah. Right. And then there's what happened to us when they were like, hey, two weeks to flatten the curve. Turns out you need to do that long enough for everybody in that two weeks who got exposed to stay at home for two weeks from the time they were exposed. Judah: Stay at home. For our dear listeners, Frank and I were both essential workers during the time of COVID, mandatory in-person activities. And I remember having I think you recall this. I was having panic attacks in my office and my doctor had to give me like a medication you put under your tongue to calm me down and Frank came into my office when I was having a panic attack and they're like, didn't your doctor give you medication for this exact moment? Why don't you take that medication? Frankie: Mm-hmm. We all did that to each other. Judah: And I did get covet early on. Frankie: Yeah, you got COVID early on. I got COVID when Delta variant was going around. It was just after all the mask restrictions in Oregon had been lifted because the state as a whole had crossed the 70% threshold, which medically is appropriate. Douglas County was under fifty percent vaccinated. And so the masks Rules got lifted, everybody was not masking, including the fifty-one percent of people who hadn't been vaccinated. And I mean, they weren't masking anyway, but then everybody who was vaccinated felt safe to take their masks off. And then ninety percent of the attorneys in our office got COVID at the same time. Judah: They weren't masking anyway. People were wearing I was I was just visiting. Remember I came down to visit that week. Then that was the second time I got COVID. 'Cause I was just coming down to say hi and I was like in town for like a lingering court hearing and got COVID with everybody else. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm. yeah, I think we traced it to like a specific dependency hearing or something where the first few people had gotten it. Judah: Yeah, so when I first got COVID and it was really early, it was during that little wave that there was a COVID outbreak in the jail and I had gotten it there really early. and this was before tests were widely available. So my doctor was just like, You have to have it. Like this is what the s this is yeah, this is what the symptoms are. And I was Frankie: Mm-hmm. This is what's going around. Judah: sick as a dog for like three weeks and I was having to change my clothes and my sheets on the bed multiple times a day because I was sweating through my clothes and I was sweating through the sheets and I was sweating through the blankets and I was social distancing from Megan in our spare room and she was like putting food outside the door Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah, it was not a fun time. it could have been very, very different had the administration handled it differently. But again, let yeah, they didn't. Judah: but they didn't yeah, it it just the the body pains that I experienced during that time is some of the worst pain that I've ever felt. Frankie: Mm-hmm. I had the loss of taste and smell, which was just fucking weird. Judah: Yeah, I had loss of taste and smell, slowly came back. So it's like I don't care what you feed me. I was videoing into my doctor and I was she's like, Okay, well you have hor horrible racking cough, high fever, sweats, loss of taste and smell. It was more loss of taste. I think I got my smell back first and then I got my taste back. Frankie: Mm. Yeah, I lost both and it was just weird. Judah: then the second time I got it, because I was already vaccinated, it was honestly pretty mild. Frankie: Mm. I was vaccinated, I still almost had to go to the hospital. Judah: Well you have lung conditions and stuff. Frankie: I I'm I've yeah, I do have a chronic lung condition amongst other things and so my pulmonologist was like, Well, I'm gonna give you a prescription for a steroid, and if your oxygen goes and stays below ninety-three, you take one and go to the ER. And I was like, There's no in between he's like, No. Judah: No. There's that is that is what it is. Frankie: There's no like a I come see you and he's like, nope, nope, just you're at home or you go to the ER. And I'm like, okay. And so like I'd walk up the stairs from getting water or something and go back and lay down and watch as my oxygen slowly went from 80 back up to 93. And I was like, do I go in? Do I not? Do I go in? Do I not? Judah: I feel for you 'cause that's the first time thought I was gonna die. Second time felt like a kind of mild case of the flu and the only way that I knew that I had it is my office at the time still had and has a policy that if you have covet symptoms you have to take a covet test. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And we have covet tests at the office and I was having some symptoms. I thought there's no way this is it. But I knew that other people like you had just gotten covet and I had just seen you, took a covet test, had it, followed the isolation protocols, Frankie: Yeah. Judah: But I could tell you like it was a world of difference being vaccinated and getting it. Frankie: I I'm sure if I wasn't vaccinated I would have been hospitalized. 'Cause as close as I was having been vaccinated, had I not been, I mean, I had a family member die of COVID 'cause he refused to get vaccinated, so Judah: It was before vaccines were available, but there was some like restrictions lifted. But there was a very, very small family gathering. My wife masked and like ate on the porch and social distanced. Everybody else at the gathering got COVID. And my wife's Yeah, and Megan did not. And my wife's uncle passed away from it. And we still miss him. Frankie: Mm-hmm. I remember you telling me this. Mhm. Yeah. so many lives were lost for absolutely no reason. Judah: Yeah, absolutely no reason and I know the hole in my family is gonna be there forever from where he was and isn't any more. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, absolutely no reason. Judah: Yeah. All right, moving forward with more good news. Frankie: Moving Well not really actually. We're gonna talk about a couple of the gurus passing away. So the update from the last year or so of sovereign citizenry. The violence led by these people have actually declined recently in the US, especially after the death of David Lester Strait on April 1st, 2025. He was a longtime figurehead of the movement, leading multiple sovereign citizen groups. He held seminars, sold materials such as license plates, and reportedly netted $200,000 in profits from selling either materials, license plates, stuff like that. he was one of the main gurus. So after he passed away, there was definitely a hole in the movement, and so stuff kind of slowed down a little bit. another leader passed away last September named James Clinton Belcher. He was the head of state for the American States Assembly. which is a sovereign citizen group allegedly setting up a shadow government bank, etc., so that they can actually have their own government. Belcher's partner, Anna Von Reitz, lost her property for failing to pay income taxes because why pay income taxes when you are a sovereign citizen? So, couple big deaths in the leadership. Definitely showed a slowing down of things. this shadow government that TASA was attempting to set up obviously took a little bit of a hit as well, so that shadow government is not getting set up. just a note about Russo, which we had talked about briefly before the Republic for the United States of America, where the U is a little U and not a big U. that was founded in 2010. It is a Christian organization and it's also creating its own shadow government. And it will This is my favorite part. It believes the military will be seeking its assistance any day now. Judah: Right. Frankie: Because the United States military is going to completely defect and set up a shadow government being run by people who don't like government. Judah: Yep, that's what they want. Frankie: Yeah. there are also multiple active groups in Hawaii as the belief system appealed to indigenous Hawaiians who were upset by their queen being overthrown, which ended the kingdom of Hawaii when Hawaii became a state. Judah: Well and I mean that there's a whole I was gonna bring that up. There like that was a completely unlawful overthrowing. The kingdom Yeah. The Kingdom of Hawaii should still exist. Frankie: Mm-hmm. It was. It absolutely was. It absolutely should. Yeah. No, that was colonialist bullshit that she got overthrown. the Hawaiian royalty had been in power forever and it was complete bullshit that she got overthrown and it made Hawaii a state, but what true benefit does that get them? Judah: Yes. None to the indigenous people who have been systematically disenfranchised and Frankie: Correct. So the indigenous Hawaiians believe that the sovereign citizen movement will give them the keys back to their kingdom. Which I a hundred percent appreciate the sentiment because the overthrow of the Queen was bullshit. I worry that they are just being duped once again. Judah: Yeah, and just pulled out getting their money taken. Frankie: Yep. my last note is that the Southern Poverty Law Center estimates that there are currently three hundred thousand sovereign citizens in the United States today, which is A little less than one percent of the population. So that is all I have. Yes, I mean, I got tired of researching it at one point. Because there's just a lot of information. Judah: Really? Ha ha There's a lot it's this is something else that gets more airtime and causes more problems than the percentage of people Frankie: Correct. Judah: who they are. when I encounter some people claiming to be sovereign citizens, I also have, you know, I've had concerns about people's mental health. Frankie: Yes. and sometimes it is legit mental health and they're looking for something to ground themselves. A lot of the time it's not. A lot of the time it's just they were desperate for something to make sense and they got swiped up in it and that's how they live their life now. And it's really unfortunate that Judah: Yeah. Frankie: these gurus are turning such a profit at these people's expense. Judah: Yeah. And a lot of people are poor. I would say people who are scamming other people out of money are likely a minority of even the Frankie: Yeah. I think that is correct, that the vast majority of people who are ascribing to these beliefs are the people that you see in court who are just saying that that's their entity name, it's not their true name and things like that. versus people who are actively engaging in violence against other people, although it is a population that tends to carry guns and it is a population who tends to argue with police about carrying guns. So there is that aspect to it, but in terms of the people doing the scamming, that is very likely the the vast minority of of those people. Judah: Well, let's pivot to ending this on a high note where we're gonna talk about a sovereign citizen who has precious little to nothing to do with what Frankie has been talking about for the last three weeks. I'm talking about the beloved figure who's been sometimes referenced in fiction as the king of San Francisco, but is known Frankie: Yes. Yeah. Judah: two San Franciscans as Norton the First, Emperor of the United States. my main source is the Emperor Norton Trust. And this group also has brought together and summarized very handily a couple hundred original sources. They've got great pictures. And I'm going to pop this in the show notes. because if you're interested in this story, please visit their website. it was just a great resource. And through my talk, I'm gonna do something unusual. And I am going to say if you are moved by this, and I'm gonna try and convince you to join in the effort to rename the Bay Bridge Tunnel through Yerba Buena Island the Emperor Norton Tunnel. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: There's there's been three efforts to rename things after Emperor Norton in the last 20 or so years. there've been other things named after him. This is a really interesting person. This first came to my attention through a fictional character in the author Christopher Moore's work, who also who had a character that had two stray dogs that were his dogs called Bummer and Lazarus. And that's a part of the Emperor Norton legend. There's no indication that that was true. But who Emperor Norton really was, like the thing that gathers people attention is there was a twenty year period in the mid to late eighteen hundreds where this guy self declares himself to be the Emperor of the United States and later the protector of Mexico. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: and issues rulings and proclamations and he was really embraced by the people of San Francisco, taken very not seriously, but he taken in and taken into people's hearts. He had a following and when he died, ten thousand people went to Frankie: Like he had a following. Judah: view his body. And this is San Francisco in the mid to late eighteen hundreds. So Joshua Abraham Norton was born in as best as people can track down about eighteen eighteen in England. When he's a child, very young child, his family moves to South Africa. Frankie: Wow. Judah: And his dad starts a business in some kind of shipping. I didn't put that in my notes. his father has a successful business for most of Joshua's life, but then that business starts to fall apart. And when Joseph's father dies, Joseph is the only living son, and his father doesn't have very much money left. So he has some inheritance. sorry after Joshua's father dies he goes and boards the ship to Boston in 1846 and then there's a three year period where we don't really know where at this time still Mr. Norton was but three years later He boards a ship from the Cape of Good Hope in Rio, and goes to San Francisco. When he's in San Francisco, it's debatable where he gets his money, but he's reported to have about $40,000 at the time, which is a huge amount of money. There's the sources are kind of conflicting. Did he really have that money? Is it in real estate? But he does invest in quite a few lucrative real estate parcels, business parcels, around the city. And he starts with his little real estate company kind of an importing business. Then he makes a Judgment error. In about 1852, there's a famine in China that created a a rice shortage. So he decides to try and corner the San Franciscan rice market by spending twenty-five thousand dollars to import rice from Peru. And when the rice Frankie: Mm. Judah: comes like the rice price had plummeted. It was only like a quarter of what he had bought the rice for. He doesn't pay and he gets taken to court. And there's an actual court case that you can read. It's Reese V. Norton, R-U-I-Z, so the rice sellers versus then still Mr. Norton. He goes through a set of legal crises and it's discovered throughout these court hearings that really like this guy is broke as a joke. And his wealth was really tied up in real estate. And as a part to pay his debts and to pay off the debts of his business, he gets like his real estate holdings are sold and he's just like a dude with no money. Frankie: Yeah. So I was trying to calculate how much twenty five hundred dollars would be in today's money and the US inflation calculator doesn't go back that far. So Judah: it's twenty five thousand dollars. Twenty five thousand dollars is what he spent for a shipful of Frankie: that again. So the farthest back it goes is 1913. So $25,000 from 1913 and 2026 money is $843,000, $33 sorry, $843,313.13. Judah: So he yeah, he spends he tries or attempts to spend over a million dollars, but even when the rice comes in and he's not paying, he's he's insolvent, like he's bankrupt. He's discovered to have a debt to like cash ratio of two hundred and thirty-three percent. So he's two hundred and thirty-three percent more in debt Frankie: Jeez. Judah: Then he has resources and so they go and sell off his real estate holdings to pay off his debt. And then he's got nothing. And then he kind of disappears for three years. And it's important to know that in this period before he gets to s when he gets to San Francisco in eighteen forty nine to when he goes totally bust in eighteen fifty six, he is a well regarded, noted businessman with a lot of connections and he he's known to be Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Very charismatic. He goes bust in 1856 and then in eighteen fifty eight he announces his candidacy for Congress, but he wasn't actually on the ballot. Frankie: I mean, you won a election by right in, like it's a thing. Judah: I did, but you actually have to register. I have the most right in votes of any candidate in Douglas County at the time I won, with like two hundred. But okay, so September eighteen fifty nine is where he starts to get interesting. He publishes a proclamation in the paper that says, Okay, I am the Emperor of the United States. Frankie: Yeah. Yeah. Judah: And He is gonna change the law and he goes around declaring himself emperor. He also gets himself kind of a fancy emperor outfit, like a soldier's uniform with gold buttons and this big walking stick and this hat. He Yes. he's not unhoused. He lives in the same boarding house. Frankie: So pretentious. Judah: For basically this whole time. and he sets forward a lot of proclamations. His first proclamations call for the abolition of Congress and calls for the army to forcibly clear the halls of Congress. The dissolution of the two party system and Frankie: That I agree with. Judah: And for the Republic of the United States to be dissolved in favor of a temporary monarchy, basically until he can fix things. Frankie: Huh, who else trying to do that? Except he doesn't think it may be so temporary. Judah: And there's questions about his mental health. and later on a US Census does list his occupation as emperor, but also lists that he is insane. Frankie: Aren't those things like self proclaimed though? Like when you're filling out the sentence you tell them what you do for a living. Judah: Yeah, so but they do list him as emperor and insane. But here's why we should really like this guy. He was an adversary of corruption and fraud of all kinds, political, corporate, and personal. And he was a persistent voice, I'm directly quoting from the Emperor Norton Trust, for the dignity, fair treatment, and legal rights of immigrants and other marginalized groups. he's not just sitting back. This is a guy who is going to Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: all kinds of public forums, debates. He is around everywhere. At a time when Chinese people are being really persecuted in the United States, he declares that the eyes of the emperor will be upon anyone who shall counsel any outrage or wrong the Chinese. Not a popular opinion at the time. he also Frankie: No, not at all. Judah: advocated for African Americans to be able to be admitted to public schools in San Francisco and to take public transit. Frankie: Nice. Like a hundred years before any of that was desegregated. Judah: He advocated for indigenous and Native American sovereignty, supported women's right to vote. He was a religious humanist and pluralist who strongly favored church and state separation. And he opposed what he considered unfair taxes. And he would walk around and look at public utilities and streets and observe public officials and make complaints or go and advocate for change when things weren't meeting up to standards. he was this interesting character because he's declared himself the emperor of the United States, but he is legitimately going around constantly. Frankie: That's cool. And doing things that an emperor should be doing. Judah: Yes, and advocating for the public's interest and making San Francisco better for everyone, not just rich people. that's what he advocated for and like did consistently in saying like, Hey, I'm literally going to do my job as emperor by trying to improve the lives of the people around me and he wasn't leaving out women, he wasn't leaving out people of color. and taking really radical stances. when there was something called the Sunday laws, which discriminated against Germans and Jews, state Sunday laws in California. But he just like put out a declaration that these are unlawful. Frankie: That's really cool. I mean, yeah. Judah: he regularly showed up in newspapers and it's unsurprising because he wound up as a character in a Mark Twain story, but Mark Twain had a newspaper in San Francisco at the time and wrote about him. He's in the San Francisco Chronicles. He is a guy that's living in this tiny, dingy boarding house room, which PS is being paid for by other people. So other people are funding his lifestyle. There's rumors That the city council, when his fancy uniform is getting dingy, that they would buy him new ones, but those are not confirmed. And so he's broke as a joke. Other people are paying for his rent at this boarding house. things like theaters on opening nights of plays would reserve special seats for the emperor. Frankie: wow. Okay. Judah: for him to attend and he also printed his own money as the Emperor of the United States and like the restaurants and I don't know. There's no information about what that looked like. but restaurants and like drinking establishments and places that he would go would accept his handmade money as payment for things and he Frankie: Did it have his face on it? Judah: became this tremendously popular cornerstone of San Francisco and very beloved by the people of San Francisco. We have a person locally, I don't know his backstory, but his name's Dance and Mike. I don't know what his real name is, but we call him Dancing Mike because when you see him go across the crosswalk, he dances across the crosswalk. And everybody loves Dancing Mike. so I think of him as like this elevated version of Dance and Mike. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: Businesses called him good for business because he was so popular that when he would go there, he would draw people around. He was once arrested for vagrancy and there was a protest and two different newspapers printed protests after he was arrested for vagrancy and declared a quote lunatic. you know, that's offensive now, but at the time that's w that was the term. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That that was the term. Judah: And the police chief, of San Francisco released the emperor and apologized. And after that, police officers would salute the emperor when he walked down the street. Frankie: my god. That's amazing. Judah: So he he's he was seen out on these rounds. But sadly, because I wish he was still alive today, even though he'd be well over 150 years old. close to two hundred nope, over two hundred years old. in eighteen eighty, he was heading to a debate and he regularly attended like debates and public forums and collapsed on the steps outside of the Academy of Natural Sciences and passed away. And there was a huge period of mourning. And I want to read his obituary from the newspaper The Morning Call, which was Mark Twain's newspaper. because it's so good. And I'm gonna read the whole thing. On the reeking pavement in the darkness of a moonless night under the dripping rain, and surrounded by a hastily gathered crowd Of wandering strangers, Norton First, by the grace of God, Emperor of the United States, and Protector of Mexico, departed this life. Other sovereigns have died with no more of kindly care. Other sovereigns have died as they have lived with all the pomp of earthly majesty, but death having touched them, Norton I rises up, the exact peer of the haughtiest king or Kaiser that ever wore a crown. Perhaps he will rise up more than the peer of most of them. He had a better claim to kindly consideration than that his lot forbade to wade through slaughter to throne and shut the gates of mercy on mankind. though his harmless proclamations can always be traced to an innate gentleness of heart, a desire to affect uses and a courtesy, The possession of which would materially improve the living princes whose names will naturally suggest themselves. just lovely. lovely, deeply beloved, and he became a character five years after his death in the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, the character of the king is modeled after Emperor Norton. And a nice tangent in nineteen sixty four, Jose Saria, a drag performer who in nineteen sixty one became the first openly gay candidate to run for public, Frankie: Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Judah: Office of the United States, adopted the persona Empress of San Francisco, Jose I, the widow of Norton. And what when Jose Saria died, secured a burial plot adjacent to the Emperor, where his headstone echoes Emperor Norton's headstone. Frankie: Ha ha ha Judah: Like I said, there have been many attempts to name this bridge after Emperor Norton. There's been honorary street or block namings, and there is yet another effort underway to rename the tunnel, the Emperor Norton Tunnel. And if you are interested, you can support the effort at Emperor Norton Tunnel.org. Frankie: And we'll also link that down in the show notes. Judah: We can link that in the show notes. And so I think as far as sovereign citizens go, I accept Emperor Norton as Emperor Norton the First of the United States and I accept his proclamations and his reign and I think just a a lovely piece of history. Frankie: Yeah, he was actually as much as he could with absolutely zero power, he was actually trying to do the things that I think a lot of us would wish those in power would do at this point. and seeing that all Americans are Americans, no ifs, ands or buts, and making sure that everybody feels loved and accepted. And That's what a leader should be doing. Judah: And that the city and he's bringing attention to issues that are difficult, that were easily ignored by the white men in power and advocating all over the place. They called him his rounds, and he was always at public meetings and gatherings in the city council and in the state senate. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judah: Advocating for these things. So this is a tireless advocate for justice, for rights of the marginalized, for groups that were really different than who he was. And so long live the Emperor. And that is Emperor Norton I. Frankie: Yeah. Long live the Emperor. Yes. That's a great way to wrap up our little mini segment on sovereign citizens with a true citizen who was a sovereign. Judah: Who was a sovereign who you put him in air quotes at the start of this episode, but when you hurt But when yeah, at the end, just somebody who went out and there's debates about whether or not he was deeply mentally ill. He might have been, but regardless, his kindness and his work and being known by so many people, I mean, 10,000 people coming Frankie: I I withdraw my air quotes. Mm-hmm. Judah: in person to mourn his death. And that's two newspapers gave the same number of ten thousand. that's a lot of people, just very beloved and still beloved today and continuing ongoing efforts to honor and put forward his legacy. So that's what we're doing now. So we we went from sovereign citizens who Frankie: Yep. Yeah. It's a lot of people. Mm-hmm. Judah: are doing terrible things to other people to a person who is a sovereign who who dedicated a huge portion of his life to selflessly helping others and ruling the way I think an ideal ruler should. No no power, no violence and making big changes. Frankie: Absolutely. Absolutely. So coming up next week, I am actually going to stick a little bit closer to home. As I was reading the advanced sheets last week, there was a really fun non-precedential opinion that I'm gonna dive into on Hearsay. Judah: interesting. Well I was gonna start talking about this is gonna be more Senate hearings but let's talk about the Great Red Scare in America. Frankie: yeah. That's a good one too. as always, like, review and share the podcast so that we can continue to grow. if you have any questions, thoughts, concerns, or a case that you'd like us to look into, email us at Dundeevenspodcast at gmail dot com. And we will see you next week. Judah: See you next week.