Latest / The Parent Tap / Why Marriages Collapse After Kids and How to Find Support

Transcript

Why Marriages Collapse After Kids and How to Find Support · The Parent Tap

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: According to research by Dr.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: John Gottman, 67% of couples report a sharp, precipitous decline in relationship satisfaction within the first three years of having a baby.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: The average first marriage that ends in divorce lasts exactly eight years, which aligns precisely with the chaotic years of raising toddlers and young children.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Wives are the one who file for divorce 66% to 75% of the time.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: The top self-reported reasons for divorce are a lack of commitment, 73%, constant arguing, 56%, unrealistic expectations, 45%, and a lack of equality in household relationship labor, 44%.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: In corporate America, when you add massive new variables, when you add massive new variables to a process without expanding the resource pool, the system collapsed.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is exactly what happens when kids enter the picture.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: They consume 100% of the operational bandwidth, and the marriage gets starved.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Personally, my wife and I have been together almost 20 years.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't been married 20 years, though.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: We started long distance for the first like 11.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: So basically we've been married, we married it like right before the pandemic, so 2019, December.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: It hasn't been easy, I'll be honest.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like we love each other, we love our kids.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: But there's been times where we're like, we I think we both said we want to move on.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: It totally is, especially with all the the major challenges of everyone, everything going on.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then we throw two kids into the mix.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: We have a two-year-old, then a five, she's gonna be five next week, five-year-old neurodivergent child who doesn't go to bed at night.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a lot.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you know, it it threw a lot of stress into our relationship.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, r having our first kid have those challenges.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And not know like like thinking we were doing something wrong, you know, as as a parent.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why is she always crying, or why is she not sleeping, or why you know, there was just like abnormalities that we couldn't, you know, pinpoint, not just the sleeping and stuff, but just more more I don't want to get too too in the weeds on it, but yeah, just there was stuff where it made just question like, are we doing this right?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we we would get at each other's throats a lot, like, oh, you did this wrong, or oh, I would do it this way, or you know, like even just sleep training your your kid, we had totally different philosophies on it.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it ended up really like digging a wedge in between our relationships.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I could see how not only do pay you know, relationships in general fizzle out after a while, but when you throw kids into the mix.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of just wanted to get into that.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it's cool.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of like, okay, your expertise.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so I want to get into your story a little bit to start off.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so you were a burnt-out mother crying on the kitchen floor before you.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was a mom of well, I still am a mom of two.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but back then I had my own company, I had a marketing agency, and you know, I had a very like traditional trajectory.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: I met my husband on match.com and we bought a house and we had two kids, two little boys, and I just was completely burnt out.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was the primary parent, I was the default everything.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing all the domestic labor.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: There was zero domestic equity, and I just didn't, you know, it was like you stop and think, like, is this really my life?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is this what I am gonna be doing for the next a hundred years?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so it got it got really to that point that I was just literally yep crying on the vinyl floor in my kitchen.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't even really know how I survived many of those years.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was not sleeping much, my kids did not sleep great.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: I would, you know, be kind of I was in this weird area where I had a very thriving marketing agency.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: We had we did social media management for for big clients, and it was really just me doing it often.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would be kind of working and mommying during the day, and then I'd work at night, and then I would hardly sleep, and then I would get up and do it all again.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yet I was married, and uh, you know, he had a a good job and everything, but he would come home and just kind of be home.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it got to the point that, you know, our marriage ended in April of 2019.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: He moved out in August of 2019, and then I solo parented throughout the quarantine.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: My ex moved out of state, which is a you know, it it happens more more than we'd like to talk about, but it's a different kind of custody situation and a different situation.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got very close to my kids then.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: They were three and five, and it was just the three of us during the pandemic for the most part.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I homeschooled my older son during that time.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it was I was so burnt out for sure.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I did not know how I was ever gonna, I don't know, live a life after that.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's rough.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know your exact circumstances, but I know my kids are in that arena two and five.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so thinking that the whole burden, the whole responsibility is on you, and not only that, but your your other co-parent is out of the state.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it essentially isn't, you know, they're not gonna be like basically they gave up on the on the relationship and the kids, right?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because if at that point, I mean, is that how you view it?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: It it was, you know, the thing is I don't, I don't, I wouldn't I don't think they would view it that way because I don't think that they ever really were the co-parent that I thought I was gonna have, right?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I always did everything, every bottle, every bath, every every single thing, every meal.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it was actually easier when they left because there was one less person to take care of.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it was I could make the decisions, I could work at night, you know, not having somebody else to talk to me and all of these things.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it was, you know, we could have cereal for dinner, nobody would care, right?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like I had to cook a meal for somebody.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it was and this is true across the board for a lot of women, especially.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's much easier.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, divorce is hard in its own ways, and it has it's financially tricky and all these things, but the domestic labor actually becomes a lot easier when you get divorced.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we just had an episode on choosing your hard.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: So like divorce is hard, but also staying in a bad marriage is hard too, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, which hard would you prefer?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: A cereal for dinner, I'm a big proponent of that's one of the things, like, man, I kind of miss like that thrill as a kid.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I would do that all the time, and now I'm like, if I do that, I gain like 10 pounds, and I'm like, oh god, I can't do that too often, but it's it's it's a good thing.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so like the statistics I was pulling is 67% of couples see their marital satisfaction plummet after a baby, and I can totally believe that, right?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because you said that the burnt out, the sleepless nights, the you're doing all the stuff in the house, so there's that resentment, you know, and and you feel like you're taking care of like three kids essentially, right?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: When your husband doesn't pick up the slack.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I I don't want to be viewed like that for my wife, so I really try to like pick it up.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I just got laid off three weeks ago.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, especially feeling like that right now, like I'm like, oh fuck, like I I don't want to be viewed as like another kid in the house.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm trying to just like pick up the slack and get my podcast going and all this shit that that that I need to get going as a as a father, as a dad, as a husband, all that stuff.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know when I said father and dad, but it's the same thing.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um anyways, so like how does it transform into lovers?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like when we first get married, you know, it's all lovey dovey, and you're like, you know, we can't go a minute without each other.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's too just like exhausted coordinators.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it goes back to that we it's really hard to explain to humans what being a parent is like, right, until you go through parenting.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And divorce is very, very similar.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know what it's like to go through divorce until you go through divorce.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, I talk a lot about this that as much as we like to think we know the person that we're marrying and we might spend 20 years with them, right, before we even get married, uh, we really don't know them because we don't know what different life experiences you're gonna encounter with them.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: And becoming a parent is one of those, right?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't know how the other person is gonna react when the baby has colic and will not stop screaming, right?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, little things like that, right?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you have to run out to the pediatrician in the middle of the night, all of those things, what is gonna trigger that person, right?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I found that my ex was really, you know, when my kids reached a certain age, almost got very triggered.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there were things in his life that he went through.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, right?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it was, you know, you just don't know what that reaction's gonna be.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And on top of that, right, there's just the added stress of you have to keep these people alive, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: You have to make sure that they get their vaccines and that they get food and that they go, you know, all of the things.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, and then of course there's a sleep deprivation and the resentment that comes from that, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the work that I do is really kind of pondering these questions, like, well, whose time is more valuable, right?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what what work is more valuable, and who gets to take a nap after work, and who doesn't get to take a nap after work, and how do you split up all of that domestic labor?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's a very fast road to resentment, which, you know, resentment and contempt are the two big kind of red flags for potential relationship issues, and that can happen very quickly when kids come in the picture.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's crazy because a lot of people think that, like, oh, just having a kid is gonna fix our relationship.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I know you know, we kind of fall into that mindset, or at least we did as a couple, where it's like, oh, we're having this problem, but if we have a kid, we're gonna feel the love, and you know, everyone's gonna come together to support us, and they're gonna have this cool baby shower, and you know, like I don't know, like I we had all the imagery in our head, but then when the reality of you come home day one without the nurses, without the supports, yeah, and you're like, oh shit, every hour, every two hours, this kid needs eating, feeding, changing, yeah, cared for the constant crying you mentioned, call like thank god my kids didn't have that, but I've heard the stories.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh, you know, my kid does have special needs, so like uh, you know, there was some differences there, and we we just thought she was a normally hard child, and I just thought, like, I'm failing as a parent here.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I didn't know, but that definitely led to like the wedge between us.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I was doing research and I I saw 75% of the divorces are initiated by the wife, is what I was finding.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're finding, too?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was wondering if you were gonna catch on.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's kind of a yes, uh, it's about 70% of divorces are initiated by the the woman in a heterosexual relationship, but it's not because they that 70% of the wives want divorce.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's because in a lot of traditional heterosexual marriages, it is the woman who literally does the paperwork.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: So she is the one that is going to be filing.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you file for divorce, there is specific paperwork you need, you know, your marriage certificate, birth certificates, things like that.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: She knows where it is.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she it's it's an administrative issue.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, the other part of this is that a lot of times I have seen, and I've talked to hundreds of women going through this, that the again in heterosexual marriages, the guy will often kind of push her to the edge, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Where she finally, you know, asks for the divorce or says she wants a divorce.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: But but it's not I always like to remind people the average time a woman considers divorce before she even says anything to anyone in her life is about two years.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So this is not a flippant decision that she's making, right, to like just say, I want to, you know, have a divorce.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is a a long, long time she's really thinking about it, and then she is either filing the paperwork or she is the one who is, you know, saying that she wants it.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean that number gets thrown around a lot because people like to blame women, right, for a lot of the divorce w in the country, but it's really because she's doing the paperwork.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that makes total sense because uh it seems like in the typical household and the heterosexual I'm glad that you mentioned that because I wasn't even like thinking about the other sorry, shout out.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: I have my my wife's grandparents are a same-sex couple, so shout out to them.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: They they actually support me and watch all this stuff, but yeah, I I view it as like more of a Mrs.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Outfire thing where like the guy does something stupid, he fucks up over and over, and she just breaks and she's like, forget this, I'm done.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Pierce Brosnan's waiting for me on the other side, you know, like that kind of thing.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: We all want Pierce Brosden waiting for us, but yeah.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and I I could understand that, yeah, if that was the case.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so that's that's interesting to know that it's more of an administrative paperwork just because in that heterosexual relationship, the wife is doing most of the load.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll be honest, that's kind of how it goes for us.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like my wife, this morning we woke up late for getting the kids out the door, she's brushing my daughter's hair.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: She both the kids want to sit on her lap, of course.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like that motherly thing, and the dad's just kind of like taking out the trash or like taking shit to the car.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm just yeah trying to pick up the slack, but there's something about mom that that the kids just kind of like latch on to, at least in our household, where it's like I can't really do as much.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: He mentioned the bass the other night, like she does the bass all the time.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: So um, I'm trying to pick up the slack, but I realize it's definitely not as much.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, so I guess like you know, leading into the next uh transition there, um why do we force like relationships to work when we realize like it's not working?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just is it the shame?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the like acknowledgement that we failed in this relationship, or is it just like the hope of maybe this will get better?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a little bit of all of that, Ryan, for sure.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: We have conditioned ourselves and our world and our culture so much, especially in American culture, that longevity in a relationship equals a happy relationship, right?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that is so not true.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's no shiny metal at the end of a long, unhappy marriage that you're gonna get handed, right?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's just not how this works.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, part of my job is to reframe, you know, what a a successful marriage really looks like.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have, you know, beautiful, healthy children together?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have a a great life?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're seeing there's a rise in gray divorce, which is divorce over 50, has rised like triple, you know, what it used to be in the last decade.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because a lot of people finally get to this place, you know, 50, 55, and they're like, we kind of did this together, right?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: We had a family, they're grown kids now.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: We can kind of do our own thing.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like a lot of them are actually very amicable because they're just ready to go live the second half of their life.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we a lot of people meet people really young.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was 24 when I met my ex, and I'm definitely not the same person at 41 that I am at 24, right?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that is the beautiful part of life, right?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: We're supposed to evolve, we're supposed to grow, and sometimes we grow apart and sometimes we grow together, and that's totally okay.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, to your point, there is so much shame around divorce and breaking up, and there's still this rhetoric of like it's breaking up a family or it's gonna ruin the kids.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so it just it does, it keeps people in relationships way longer than they're supposed to be.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I want to talk a little bit about like the you you said the shame, and so I come from a very Christian, like conservative background, if you will, and whereas like church every Sunday, and like you know, you're going to church on Wednesday, and like I I was in a private Christian school, so like yeah, there the the whole concept of like marriage is not acceptable from that background, and so I think even more there's a little bit more of a pressure.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: My parents have been married 50 years, so shout out to them.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's amazing.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I like uh I know that I'm not gonna get a shiny medal, but for me, like I think that's cool.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: I would strive to do that too, but it's also like I don't want to stay in a marriage that's not working through.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, real life and I, we do a lot of work on ourselves, we do therapy, we're trying to work through stuff and be the best we can for our kids, but there is that hostility sometimes.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, what are you seeing in your practice of like the high, high, high I'm sorry, the high hostility like between people?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is it like messing up our kids?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because like I just or is it better?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I guess I should put it this way like the high hostility that you had with your uh spouse when your kids were when he was in the house, right?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like it's better now that he's gone?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then what do you think the damage was done from that?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think across the board, it's just really important to remember that kids pick up on everything, even if you're not saying things in front of them, they hear things, they feel the energy in the house.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And kids really do understand when there's two people who don't want to be there together, opposed to a parent who lives by themselves and is really happy and doing well and is confident.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I always like to remind people, you know, your kids can either grow up with the two of you who are hostile and angry, and you're that's the the model that you're showing them of a healthy relationship, which is not healthy.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, say, like, would you want this for your kids, this type of marriage?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or you can get divorced and have your family in two different homes, and that's okay.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Your kids will have two very full whole parents instead of you know two parents who are only living half their life basically in one house.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And for what?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just so you can have one address, right?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't really make sense.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's way better to I always say to give a hundred percent of yourself to your kids 50% of the time than 50% of yourself to your kids a hundred percent of the time.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was checking out your podcast, divorce happened.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you have a lot of podcasts, but that was one of the things.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: We have a lot of podcasts, yeah.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I think I saw four at least.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have at least I don't know.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have a lot.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Is it more than that?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, geez.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well no, I think it's I think right now we're focusing on four.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: We had five, but we but I I produce all of them.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: So from I can't handle my sister would kill me if we had more.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, but divorce happens in our top divorce podcast.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I noticed that yeah, you worked with your sister, so that's really cool.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so how did you handle that uh situation, you know, when you're going through the throes of the divorce brewing with the kids, you know, sleeping at night?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Did did it really weigh on you of like, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna like kind of break up the family, so to speak?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like there's this very much societal stigma.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe this is just from my background growing up in like what I just described, of like you're you're the one that's kind of like throwing this away or whatever you want to say.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful, that's just how I guess I was conditioned growing up.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, how did you overcome that, those, you know, some like especially like religion and you know, whatever that's in the mix?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: But like, did you ever feel like a little bit of a sense of like guilt about it, or did you just feel like, okay, I'm gonna wipe my hands, I'm gonna, I'm gonna like kind of just we're gonna have a fresh start and we're gonna be better off for it.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then in retrospect, you think it's like the best decision for you and your kids?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: It definitely is the best decision for all of us.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, my ex went on to get remarried and had another baby, and he's very happy, and so I'm happy for him.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: So my situation was interesting because we talk a lot about like people would love people love to know the story behind a divorce, right?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Who left who and what happened and all of these things.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to explain that sometimes because I would say in my situation, it was that my ex was the one that actually decided that he was gonna leave.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I started therapy a couple months prior to that and learned a new language about setting boundaries.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was kind of a mix of between my confidence growing and then it was a toxic relationship.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: He was very emotionally abusive.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and then he decided he was leaving, and that was great for all of us.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we still had to work through a lot of that stuff.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: We still lived together for another three months because most people can't just move out right away.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I I would say I didn't feel guilty.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: I am a child of divorce, my grandparents are divorced, everybody's divorced.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up around it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I did feel a lot of grief around the fact that I thought I was gonna be with this person forever.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I was really excited for that.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I really wanted to raise my kids with the person I had kids with.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that that's what I was gonna have.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there was definitely a lot of grief around that.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel guilty because I think my kids are having the best life possible with their parents who are happy people, you know.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it is definitely there's there's been times that I felt not shame, but like people definitely look at you differently when you're divorced or a single mom.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think because I'm a writer, I've always kind of processed it through content or writing, but it's it's still there, right?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: People are still judging people.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's 2026.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: My kids are judged because their parents are divorced.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I one my one of my sons once had somebody say to him, like, well, your dad left or something, you know, and it's like ridiculous things like that.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say, you know, my kids got to be who they're supposed to be.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I get to be the mom that I'm supposed to be, and I'm living this life that I love because I went through this thing and now I get to help people through the divorce process also.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it worked out for everybody.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Divorce usually does in a long the long run, but it's one of those really annoying things like parenting that time helps.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to kind of give it some time.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and through that transition, did you did you deal with like grief, anger, confusion from your kids that made it a little bit more difficult?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know it worked out all in the end, and that's great.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: But people going through it right now in particular, like how did you handle some of those emotions?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say number one is we got a therapist.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So my kids were little and they went to therapy, and I started with we're still with her.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a long time, it's seven years.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess about seven years.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so we we started with one kid with her, then my other son went with her, and then I also go to her.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So she sees us, and the fun part is she sees.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Us in different iterations.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes just the boys go, sometimes I go with one of the kids.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: But as a solo mom, it's really important to have somebody that is there who has an unbiased look at the family, but also understands the dynamics.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say too, the other kind of big thing is yeah, kids are gonna have emotions about it.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like their dad moved out.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's you know a big deal.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I put my romantic life on the back burner for, I mean, I still pretty much have to focus on my work and my kids because I wanted them to know like I'm here, you know, and so they are incredibly confident, probably too confident, and uh are spoiled that their mom is with them all the time.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: So they're but you know, yeah, you're definitely you there's a lot of emotions, and and I would say too, for anybody listening who has little kids who is going through a divorce, it is going to manifest in different ways as they grow, right?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, like my younger son was three when my ex moved out, he didn't know what was really happening at all.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my ex moved to Chicago and my son kept thinking it was Costco because the words sounded similar in his head.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: But now that he's 10, you know, he sees the world differently and he's processing that differently.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, nothing like parenting is ever set in stone with divorce in terms of like the emotions.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I still I still have moments of grief and shame and all of those, you know, and that's okay.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's it's a big life change and it's gonna always be a big life change no matter what.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I love what you started, the Fresh Starts Registry, because I think so much of, you know, like you said, getting married is like the excitement, the showers, the gifts, the ceremonies, the celebration, essentially, and then when you get a divorce, everyone's like, oh, the shame, the guilt, the are you okay kind of feeling, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know this personally, but just from what I've experienced, and you've gone through it obviously personally, but um, and so your registry is is super awesome because it does kind of reverse that thought process, right?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Of like, oh, how this is bad.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, after I got divorced, um, my sister who is two and a half years younger than me, we've always kind of had projects together, but I had this idea, she she also my so my sister broke off an engagement for she was supposed to get married, and the wedding didn't happen.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of were living these like parallel lives of finishing these relationships.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I had this idea.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I said, well, you know, they make baby registries and wedding registries.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Why is there not a divorce registry?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so we it was one of those things that just kind of came to us.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: We we founded Fresh Starts, which is the world's first divorce registry.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the goal of it was to eliminate the overwhelm of starting over again, right?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: So in divorce, you divorce is really expensive.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Often women and men, but women too, will move out, you know, of the residence, the marital residence, to a smaller apartment or even go back to their parents' house, which is what I did.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you need new things.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Half of your things are gone.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so we had launched the registry.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always always free to make a registry over at Fresh Starts.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then as we were building, we realized people were coming to us for a lot of really divorce education.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have 150 plus amazing divorce professionals who are part of the website.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that we make our money, because we're always super transparent, is that the divorce professionals pay membership fee and we support them in marketing and PR and podcasts and all that stuff.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's always free to browse the experts to make a registry.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I offer free one-on-one divorce consults with anybody, anybody at all who's considering or navigating or post-divorce who needs some support, and then we can connect you with some support and resources.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we really are this entire ecosystem of divorce support and education.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole reframe is that it is a fresh start.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's not shameful.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing gross about it.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Divorce is not a dirty word.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's just another life change, and we're here to support people through that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love the concept of it and how, you know, the transparency behind it, because obviously we we have to make money somehow in what we do, but but but just how open and honest you are about that and and just the whole the premise of, you know, it's not like this.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're not throwing a funeral, so to speak, because it's always like, it's always like for me, I feel like it's so somber.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, yeah, everything is, you know, like you said, you split your your stuff in half, and the kids are a mess potentially, and you're a mess, and like they're off remarrying or something.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know how that doesn't bother you, but you sound less petty than I would be.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's such a great idea, and I just have to say, like, you know, obviously I haven't been through it, but I know that like you know, it's definitely been something that like both of us have.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I will say too, yeah, like we and we actually get a significant number of people who come to the platform for friends and family members, right?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we have a lot of people who will thank us and reach out and say, I didn't know how to help my sister, my best friend, my brother, and I sent them to you guys, and that's that's a huge help.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we're here, my DMs are always open, my emails are always open.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you have questions, if you need a professional, we're global, so um, you can, you know, find an expert anywhere and we'll help you.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's I think because we're not lawyers, we come at this from a different perspective.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're just people who have gone through this and we break things down so that we make it easier for you.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: We help you with the scripts you need for things, and we truly, truly just want to make sure people don't feel alone going through this process.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, everyone check out fresh startsregistry.com and Olivia's podcast, Divorce Happens, which is awesome, by the way.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: You just have this very great production value.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: I love the intro of your podcast.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: The intro of the podcast was the best thing that I've ever created.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you made that yourself?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: I made that myself.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I need to have something like that because I just I have this like shitty intro and outro, and like I don't know what to do.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's great.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think I heard I'm the obsessive Mrs.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Doubtfire, so I think I heard a little bit of the Mrs.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: probably there was there's some curb your enthusiasm, there's marvelous Mrs.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mazel.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there's there's a bunch of things, but I appreciate that.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, divorce happens, is it's really short episodes with a bunch of our experts and people who have gone through divorce.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I do a ton of solo episodes about little things.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I get a lot of people who ask me questions, I answer them on the podcast, but yeah, it's a lot of great education over there, also.