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Managing a True Blue Blood - Notre Dame GM Mike Martin · Scouting the League

• Rodrik David: Well, I am excited to get going today. One of the premier programs in all of college football. Again, one of those few programs where there is no debate. They are a blue blood in college football. It is Notre Dame. It is GM Mike Martin joining us on Scouting the League. Mikeum, welcome to the podcast. Mike Martin: No, thank you guys for having me on, man. Appreciate you, Roger. Appreciate you, Neil. Thank you. It's been it's been a minute, man. Neil Stratton: True gentleman of the game, Mike Martin. I'm so glad to have you here today, buddy. And ⁓ we've been pursuing you for a while and I just really appreciate you making time, man. It's ⁓ we're really honored to have you. Now, Mike, we've been known we've known each other for a long time, but I don't think I've ever heard your origin story. Here's a guy that went to Vanderbilt, played at Vanderbilt, didn't have to pursue football if he didn't want to. He had a few options on the table, I'm sure. Why'd you decide to go down this road, man? And why scouting, why not coaching or anything else? Rodrik David: Yeah. Mike Martin: Yeah. You know it's crazy, ⁓ When I first started, I didn't know of the opportunities in football that existed beyond playing, right? Like, you know, I I wanted to play like it like most guys grew up ⁓ with a football in my hand, wanting to play in the NFL and tried to ⁓ play as long as I could, you know, and was glad, grateful for the opportunity to go to Vandy and play there. And ⁓ I like to say I fooled them as long as I could fool them. ⁓ but like, you know, like a lot a lot like what happens with most and a lot of people is that you know, football. All came to an end and it was time to try to figure out what was next. ⁓ and I was like figuring out, you know, interviewing different places, trying to figure out w where life was gonna take me. And ⁓ you know, I'd narrowed it down to I think it was like Centast, the Uniform Company, and American Express Financials, none of which I wanted to do, didn't really wanna do either, but I mean I was now Needing to be gamefully employed and and ⁓ to get a check, you know. And so ⁓ I was always about ready to just kind of jump into one of those opportunities. And I got a call from ⁓ Nancy Hasselman, who was with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers at the time. She was ⁓ one of the administrative assistants there. ⁓ she was working there with Mark Dominic and ⁓ and they were looking for a scouting assistant. And I have no clue how she came about my information. Like I hadn't applied for a job again. I knew nothing about scouting at the time. I mean, to me back then, it was like you're either playing football, you're coaching it. You may be a ref, but that was about that was the extent of football, you know, and pro football to my knowledge. And so ⁓ when she called and mentioned, hey, you know, ⁓ wanted me to come interview, ⁓ and Mark got on the phone and ⁓ you know, they talked about having me in to come interview for the scouting assistant job, it sort of opened my eyes to an opportunity that I didn't even know existed. And and man, I'm so glad that, you know, grateful for that that opportunity. Neil Stratton: Now, Mike, we all have someone that kind of helps us, I don't know, stay in our lane and make sure we're we're progressing a certain way. We may not call them mentors, but usually they they kind of serve in that function. Did you have someone who is kind of your mentor or your champion or anyone that you've kind of maybe continued to talk to and and as you've come along the way and maybe gave you a a hand up here and there? Mike Martin: Yeah, I've had a lot of influences, man, like great influences ⁓ in my time, you know, working in the NFL for twenty-something years. ⁓ you know, one of the first was ⁓ Jimmy Gruden, John Gruden's dad, he helped me with ⁓ film and kind of mentored me in ⁓ in terms of watching film and knowing what I'm looking at and sort of evaluating. He used to say, You gotta be the Neil Stratton: Interesting. Mike Martin: Smartest, dumbest guy I know. Like you graduated from Van D and here you are with me watching film, you know, and it was fun you know, funny to me back then, but just kinda had a passion for what I was doing. And ⁓ there also, you know, I I met ⁓ Doug Williams, who was able to to kinda grow a relationship with him, still one of my closest friends today. ⁓ you know, and he like just was a big brother to me, man, and showed me, you know, just so many things, not just about football, but about life, you know. ⁓ and then was fortunate enough to go on To ⁓ Houston, Texans from there. And there, ⁓ you know, there was ⁓ Brian Gardner, who was a longtime scout and evaluator. Like he was always there for me and in my corner and just taught me so many things. ⁓ One of the OGs, Bobby Greer. Bobby Greer was there, you know, in Houston, and I learned quite a bit from him and Rick Smith. ⁓ You know, just again, so many, so many different influences, ⁓ you know, throughout this thing. And I'm grateful for all of them. My parents ⁓ constantly sort of in my corner and giving me some direction and wisdom. My brother, who played football and was also an agent, still still an agent. You know, he's he's ⁓ kind of weighed in and helped me and given me, you know, a lot of direction. ⁓ I would say, you know, maybe the the I don't know if mentor is the the biggest word, you know, best word, but ⁓ support and guidance is kind of really come from my wife, you know, my wife Carrie Martin, she ⁓ Sort of gave up what she was doing so that I could do this, you know, and I could kind of you know live my life. You know, we we've bounced around so many places and moved around so much. You gotta have someone that's kind of willing to go through that with you. And ⁓ and she she sacrificed quite a bit, you know, and ⁓ my family has, and but she's always been there. ⁓ and she is like not knowing when we first got together, she knew very little about about football. I remember, I think she came in her very first. First NFL game was when I was working for the Bucs. And so for someone who knew little about football, so little about football, she's kind of really wise, got a lot of wisdom as it relates to to life. And she was really ⁓ able to kind of help me in terms of, you know, ⁓ how to move through different spaces, you know, in different times. And sort of, you know, regardless of where I was, no matter how bad the season was or what the record was or, you know, if we're gonna get fired, she was like, Like, you know, she was kinda constantly reminding me to like don't miss the the message, don't miss what you're supposed to get out of this, you know, and ⁓ So whether it was when we were terrible in Detroit my first year, you know, or some of the rough patches we had in Houston, it was like, man, there's a lesson here somewhere. And she constantly reminded me. So I gotta say, you know, honestly, she's probably been, you know, again, mentor may not. I don't want to give her mentor, but I will say, you know, advisor, guide, support, like she's definitely ⁓ been maybe the greatest one in my corner. Rodrik David: Yeah, well I don't think ⁓ I don't think Neil Stratton: Now, Mike, when you got the when you got the Tampa Bay call, were y'all already involved? Were y'all married? I mean, 'cause obviously that's a pivotal thing. You had two offers from real companies and you're kind of taking a chance with the bucks. Was she an influence on that decision? Mike Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, so we weren't together yet. And I actually was traveling ⁓ when I met her. So I was traveling, ⁓ one of my spots was Atlanta that I was traveling to for work. ⁓ and I I met her in Atlanta. And so ⁓ You know, but that was early on, you know, like I I would say my first year or so, you know, in football, ⁓ and on this job. And so we sort of learned the job together and kind of grew up in this in this profession together. So she like my traveling was all she ever really knew. You know what I mean? And ⁓ You know, I remember working back for the Bucks back in the day when, you know, yeah, they wanted they were looking for 20 year olds for twenty thousand dollars or less. And, you know, she was there with me. And when, you know, we we ⁓ had the smallest apartment and you know, ⁓ trying to scrap together things to just kind of be able to to survive. And she was ⁓ she was there. And so she's she's been a part of it the whole time. I definitely might have been a different Neil Stratton: Only points. Quite point though. Mike Martin: discussion if, you know, we had met later in life and I'm kind of fully enthralled in this line of work and that was something she was sort of completely indifferent to. It would have been a completely different story, but she ⁓ she's been a part of it pro pretty much from the beginning. ⁓ but early on in my career. Rodrik David: That makes two of us. I met my wife in Atlanta as well. I was employed by the Falcons, so I wasn't traveling through. But again, I think Neil can be definitely, you know, knowing Polly, none of us would be here where we are without our wives, without their stable presence. Because again, four teams, a lot of time on the road. That time as a road scout is, hey, you know, I'll see every two weeks these next three months. I'm gonna be gone for you know about a month during pro days. Combine, you throw it all in there again. That relationship, we talk about relationships, then networking all the time. That relationship at home is so important to keep you grounded. Again, when you when you made your different stops, what were again, obviously learning a new playbook, a new ⁓ scouting manual. Learning a new organization, what were the challenges specifically moving around from organization to organization and area to area or role to role that really challenged you? Mike Martin: Yeah, I think it's just like anything. Like scouting is scouting, and I think evaluating it is is evaluating, but like learning whatever the system is, the new system there, like there are really these complex and detailed systems in different places. I gotta say Detroit was one of the probably one of the most detailed. and like just learning a whole new system. What what are we calling this grade? And ⁓ you know, some people Tag grades with decimals and what does a decimal mean? So starting starting from scratch and kind of learning, you know, these systems, whether it's a number, numerical system, an alphabet system, ⁓ and really kind of what that means, you know, not just the grades, not just, hey, I think this guy is ⁓ he's ⁓ you know, 32 hot, you know, or whatever that means, but also like what what sort of makes the system go. you know, and where the issues are with the system. Like ⁓ what I appreciated again about one of my most recent stops, ⁓ Detroit, was we were constantly evolving our process. So it was like, you know, what I learned over the years is, you know, the NFL, you know, in in certain programs, you you can kind of get into certain organizations and the organization and what you do doesn't really change. The people change, but like what you're doing and the processes don't change. ⁓ Detroit's was a little bit different. You know, we constantly changed the process ⁓ so that we were most efficient and making sure that, you know, it was it was working for us. And so ⁓ really learning the ins and out of why we do things, ⁓ how we evaluate ⁓ the character, the background, how we're gonna go about that, how can we better do this? You know, all of those things were ⁓ I think things that made, you know, Detroit a special place. Rodrik David: Well let's let's talk more about Detroit because again that's that's a pretty unique spot. Again, you get there. It had been a rough stretch. Again, it's it's I've heard Urban Meyer say Brad Holmes didn't get that job because it was a good job. Like he got that job because it was open, because they had really struggled. You get in there, Brad Holmes comes from a very progressive, new minded thinking. Again, the LA Rams, we've talked to Taylor Morton. Again, they do things that kind of buck the trend. Neil Stratton: I mean I I roll with it. Mike Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Rodrik David: And they surprise everybody and turn around and ⁓ face some criticism for getting rid of again a guy that was a proven guy, again maybe not proven in the playoffs, but Matt Stafford. You turn around, talk about like, hey, I'm I'm in Detroit, we're gonna turn this thing around. ⁓ there goes the franchise quarterback. Talk about that situation, getting into it and kind of you know forging ahead. Mike Martin: Yeah. Man, I remember ⁓ that move, that transaction sort of happened right as I was getting there. I remember getting there and it was like, Man, we just traded Matthew Stafford. And was like, What? You know, maybe I need to call Fit back over there at ⁓ Carolina, see if I can get my job back. You know, but ⁓ you know, it was when you hear that and you you know the ⁓ what a player that Stafford was and still is, you know, like it's it's you know, part of accepting that and going in that direction was sort of with him, you know, in mind and being the quarterback there. But ⁓ you know, I think you know, Brad had a really good idea and thought of, you know, mindset in terms of what the organization needed and how we were gonna ⁓ attain that, you know, and ⁓ Stafford, you know being traded was sort of a big part of it. He was a big piece. And at the time, you know, the biggest of pieces that we had that, you know, I think ⁓ Brad and and Ray Agnew and, you know, some of the the upper level guys, you know, sort of got together and and realized that man, we had to sort of ⁓ take advantage of this move and use what we have to get all these things that we need. And so ⁓ wish He could have ⁓ you know, continued to to be a part there. But, you know, I think Jared Goff the the trade, I would say, ⁓ we really were able to sort of maximize on that. You know, bringing in Jared and all the other pieces that came along with it really ⁓ was sort of the linchpin and turning around the organization. And so ⁓ I think it was a move that worked out for for everyone. You know, I think the Rams are happy with the move they made. They got their championship out of it. ⁓ and we became ⁓ ⁓ a team that was was ⁓ surprised a lot of people and you know we were able to add talent that that you know is sort of it's hard to find in this day and age and so in a quick you know in short amount of time we were able to sort of turn around a ⁓ an organization that had struggled like you mentioned ⁓ in recent history Neil Stratton: Mike, not to put you on the spot, but when that trade was made, it looked like a salary dump on the part of the Rams with respect to they had just paid, I think, Jared maybe the year before something like that. He hadn't met expectations. I think they didn't even start him in the playoffs, and then he goes to Detroit. Were y'all looking at his, hey man, we think we can turn this guy around? Or was it a, hey, let's just play out the string with this guy and see where it all goes? Do you do you even remember what the mindset was then? Mike Martin: Yeah, I'd have to say we were more of the mindset of we felt like he was what we needed and he had the ability to lead us to where we were trying to go. Unfortunately, you know, we had Brad Holmes, who was part of the the you know, the Rams when they drafted him, Ray Agnew. So they had sort of this inside information and this knowledge ⁓ you know, of golf that, you know, that that none of us, you know, no one else really had that intimate knowledge, you know. And Neil Stratton: Really. Mm-hmm. Mike Martin: And they, I think, you know, just their understanding and ⁓ the information they were able to sort of share with us as it relates to him, it told me everything I needed to know. And they really had a conviction that he he is and was what we needed to sort of ⁓ not only get the ball rolling, but they felt like he had all the tools to to help us deliver a championship. Rodrik David: Yeah. Well again we've we've certainly seen that play out with the Lions again, stumbled a little bit this year. Again, got to get the O line reset again. But again, they're this is the Detroit team who you're expecting to be right there at the top of the NFC North again for the foreseeable future now, which again You gotta have a quarterback if you're gonna be in that spot. I don't know if anybody would argue that the Lions don't feel like they have their quarterback at that point. Obviously, you add some players like Hutch and ⁓ Amon Ross Brown again, some really good pieces. And then again, you talk about that fit and the what the team needs. You've got Dan Campbell, and that personality has to carry through into the locker room. A coach can only take it so far before the players in the locker room take that. Again, Jared California, LA, like this is a guy when it goes to Detroit, like, man, is this guy the gritty Detroit guy? Talk about seeing that personality kind of develop. Like, man, this guy is the nails that we need in that locker room to continue to take this thing to the next level. Mike Martin: Yeah. Yeah, I think you can ⁓ you can misread Jared. You know what I mean? Like you see the blonde hair, you look at the guy and you think California cool, but man, he ⁓ he really is a tough ⁓ blue-collar worker, hard like he sort of embodied a lot of things that the city embodies. And so, you know, i if you look at how he was embraced by the city and how he ⁓ you know, he was able to sort of lead the team but also just represent us to to, you know, ⁓ To the best of his ability. And I think the the city just really, he really endeared himself to the city. And you know, he there are fans that like I'm sure they had the same mindset. You gotta think, like the guy, he came in and replaced the legend, you know, who went on to win a Super Bowl. So like, you know, there there were so many that would have been probably quick to say, hey, you know, this guy, no way, you know, but they wouldn't trade. I I'll tell you this, the one thing I know about Detroit fans is they wouldn't trade him for for anyone else. Wouldn't trade him for the world. Not even, not even the guy who left them and preceded them, you know. They just, they're really loyal, ⁓ but he's super loyal. And he gives everything he has and he works his butt off and he's like the ultimate pro, ultimate, you know, leader. And ⁓ and I think they appreciate that. And he appreciates the way they've accepted him. And ⁓ I think it's a an awesome match. Rodrik David: Yeah, certainly. Neil Stratton: All right, so Mike, Tampa, Houston, Carolina, Detroit, and now South Bend, you've worked with a lot of scouts, you've worked with lot of executives, a lot of people who know what they're doing when it comes to talent evaluation. Who's the most gifted guy? Same team you've ever worked with, and who's the most gifted guy that you didn't work with, but that you saw at work at scouting and finding those players out there? Mike Martin: Yeah. That's a tough question, man. Cause you know, I gotta deal with these scouts when they come through. So you're gonna you're gonna get me cussed out. And no, I'll I'll say this. I'll say I've I've had the the fortune of working with a bunch of really good evaluators, ⁓ super, you know, super talented guys that could identify skill sets and and not only identify them, but ex but describe to you what they're seeing. And I think, you know, it's hard, it's probably too hard for me to just identify one. I'm gonna be honest. I don't wanna give you a cop out. Rodrik David: Yeah. Mike Martin: Answer, but I'll tell you what they had in common. You know, they all sort of like kind of the courage of their conviction, man. They they were passionate about ⁓ the players that they identified and what they thought that the skill sets that they thought that these individuals had. ⁓ they all had a little bit of salesman to them, you know, and I think that's one of the most underrated things of about this job and about scouting, right? It's one thing to be able to recognize that, man, this guy's explosive and he's twitchy. But if you can't get the the decision maker to to buy that, then it doesn't matter, right? So you you have to have a little bit of sales to you. You have to be able to go present that and explain why you why you have the conviction and why you have the passion for this player that you have. ⁓ they were all able to sort of to ⁓ bring to life what it is that they see. Like they, they, you know, they, their detail, some of the best scouts and evaluators, their detail is in color, right? They're able to sort of make you vividly see it, you know, what they're describing. And I was, you know, I've had the fortune again to being around a bunch of guys that just really could open up your eyes and make you understand what it is that they that they saw and how that how these pieces or these skill sets could affect and impact our Rodrik David: Yeah. Mike Martin: Roster. And so, you know, I think that is that's the biggest thing. You gotta be passionate about this game. You gotta ⁓ be passionate about you know your beliefs. You know, I think the thing about it is we're in the opinion business. Like scouting is an opinion business. I don't I don't care what anyone says. Like you're getting paid for what you believe and what your thoughts are and what your opinion is, and you're the one person that is the expert at your opinion, you know what I mean? Like you can't tell me. Like I I can we can agree to disagree, but I can tell you what I saw and I can tell you what I believe. And I think those that that understand that and sort of fully embrace that, ⁓ you know, those are always the best in terms of evaluating talent, but also getting ⁓ the powers that be to ⁓ to understand what it is that that these ⁓ players are bringing to the table. Neil Stratton: Now, Mike, that ability, that willingness to do what you're doing, which you know, which we call standing on the table, how long did it take you to feel confident to do something like that? Number one. And number two, we've got a new generation of scouts out there. Are they are they waiting? How do I ask this question? Are they do they seem more precocious about standing on the table for players? Or do you think they're more maybe less likely to to have the courage of their convictions? Generally speaking, when it comes to scouting. Mike Martin: Yeah. ⁓ I would say it takes time, you know. I I didn't have it right away. Fortunately I went to ⁓ my first stop was with the Bucks. And you know, I I would sit in the corner and try to like be as quiet as I could so I wouldn't make anyone mad and get kicked out of the, you know, the meeting rooms. But you know, I John Gruden back then would turn and say, he used to jokingly call me Coach Mike, Coach Mike, what do you think? You know, and ⁓ and it was really cool because, you know, I my confidence grew from someone that actually really wanted my my thoughts and my opinions. And and it might have made back then like, I don't know, I probably was terrible and made no sense what I was saying, but like he actually continued to to ask and that just kind of it it grew my confidence. ⁓ and so you know I don't know Everywhere I hope guys get the opportunity. Women, men get these opportunities and these positions to express themselves and that they're called upon to for their opinions, right, wrong, or indifferent. Because I, you know, you gotta be given this grace, right? You gotta be given this opportunity to grow. ⁓ that, you know, fortunately I was I was able to have that. ⁓ and then I think you know, it's important that these the the young people in this profession understand that we're we're much more than just information gatherers, right? Like d I don't wanna spend a career just going into a school and just, hey, I'm just writing down notes and I'm not really giving you my opinion. Again, we're in the opinion business and and hopefully ⁓ you know, these individuals understand ⁓ the voices that they have and how they can use that and how they can grow that to help turnaround organizations. And so I think it's it's just vital that they they recognize the the power that they have with their voice. Rodrik David: Yeah. Mike, so scouts again, you you talked about again, it gotta have opinions. You gotta be able to paint a picture. We're we're not only in an opinion business when it comes to the draft and even sometimes for agency, we're also in a projection business. We wanna sell a player. We wanna talk about, hey, we bring this guy in. Mike Martin: Yeah. Rodrik David: he is going to fit us in this way. But a big part of that is the coaching staff now getting on board and taking this player the rest of the way to the finish line. And again, there are coaches that are really good at that. There's also coaches, I want a bunch of polished vets to come into my room because I don't want to do that. You reference Coach Gruden. He again, I don't know if anybody ever talks about him and not having blowing things to say, but who were some coaches that, man, they bought in on players, they developed players, they made scouts jobs fantastic because they saw the vision that we did and they got them to that final grade that you're standing on the table for. Mike Martin: Yeah, I mean that's a good question. ⁓ I would say, you know, Gary Kubiak was one of the best. Like there, you know, we were focused on, you know, identifying whatever the best talent was, not just via the draft, right? Like I think we all ⁓ coherently recognize ⁓ the skill set and ability that these first, second, third rounders have, right? But we ⁓ we were able to capitalize on, you know, your undrafted your your Arian Fosters, your AJ Boyees, your, you know, guys that were sort of undrafted, but it it takes strong coaches to stand by those guys. Cause I mean you got millions of dollars going out of the door in draft picks. And, you know, we're going to replace that guy with, you know, these undrafted rookie free agents. You know, I mean it's it's a tough spot, but those he was one of the the coaches that ⁓ Just regardless of what your pick was or how much we're paying you, you know, he really like if you have the talent to play in this league, we're gonna figure out a way. ⁓ Dan Campbell, you know, he's he's awesome with that and has been. Like he is, he's first of all, he's he's ⁓ just a really talented coach, but he's an awesome human being. And ⁓ he's great in the locker room, ⁓ but he had ⁓ you know, an ability. To one, he would allow personnel staff to do what they needed to do. Like he was sort of ⁓ hey, look, I I'm a coach and I have my opinions, but we pay you guys ⁓ and you guys spend all of these hours watching this film. You guys are the much more the experts than us, you know, as evaluators. So he really was someone who sort of ⁓ allowed the personnel department to do their job, you know, and he was. ⁓ and then he empowered us, so empowered us in that way. But then he also ⁓ you know, he believed in that you know, much like Gary, like it it it really didn't matter your your draft spot. You know, if you could help this team, we're gonna figure out ways for you to help. And ⁓ he is a pretty good evaluator himself. He also believes in versatility. Like I know what we drafted, we drafted you to be a linebacker, but if you can be a fullback, you know, and you can do these things, like he he had a ⁓ willingness to kind of move some pieces around ⁓ for the betterment of the team. You know, and ⁓ so those two were really great coaches to work with. ⁓ you know, I was with Ron Rivera, he he was, you know, similar, like, you know, there, Marty Herney, they drafted ⁓ you know, they they've had some excellent drafts. And I would say the process was a little unorthodox, not, you know, like what you would typically expect ⁓ but what they had going it worked for them and ⁓ they were able to i identify talent very well and develop that talent you know and take you know take a Thomas Davis senior who was a safety in college and you know go on to become a Hall of Fame linebacker you know they were able to kind of see things ⁓ that others didn't necessarily see. Neil Stratton: That's a perfect segue, Mike. All right, you've been part of the staff for a number of big-time players been drafted. A lot of the first rounders, not all of them first rounders. Let's go through a few of them. Just give me a quick sentence or two, maybe a recollection on some these players. Dwayne Brown, Virginia Tech, drafted in the first round by the Texans in 2008. Mike Martin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I remember how athletic Duane was. Dwayne was a former tight end. ⁓ that was kind of a converted, you know, offensive tackle. And he ⁓ just I just remember how athletic and ⁓ how well he moved around and he sort of fit the zone blocking scheme that we were looking looking for. And then over time you saw him grow, man. The guy became, you know, this massive human being, ⁓ but he was still able to move and he was still able to play that left tackle position. I always thought that the guy would be, you know, perennial pro bowler at guard when he first got to the league and he turned into a perennial pro bowler at tackle, you know, and it was it was awesome because he bought a little bit of a guard mentality at the left tackle position. ⁓ which was, you know, usually you get these finesse basketball players that can dance and have these awesome feet, but movement and getting push up front is something, you know, you're not necessarily expecting on a left tackle position, but he was able to give you that, you know. Neil Stratton: I I don't think Dwayne played the senior bowl that year. I think he just played in the shrine, and I remember thinking, I mean, y'all are crazy to take a guy that didn't even get the senior bowl, but obviously y'all were right and I was wrong. Not the not the first time, by the way. Another player who really, I think, won over as a Houston resident, who really brought one over the city, Glover Quinn, a defensive back out of New Mexico, fourth round in two thousand nine. Mike Martin: ⁓ yeah. GQ, yeah, he was he was awesome dude, man. Just had a a knack for finding the ball. You know, he ⁓ he he was very aware, very the anticipation and awareness ⁓ that he had, you know, at the safety position, you know, he was able to like quickly ⁓ recognize what was coming, you know, decipher routes and route combinations and he he had unique ball skills and ⁓ he had a little bit of a different build. Like he was he went he was a short, stockier build and ⁓ but, you know, it it didn't necessarily you you would look at him and you're kinda like you you were trying to figure out ⁓ what position exactly he was gonna be. You know, he didn't look like your typical NFL safety and he looked a little bigger and a little too thickly put together for corner, ⁓ but he was ⁓ pleasantly s we were we we were we knew what we were buying there and he was an athletic dude that turned into an awesome leader and again just had a knack for taking the ball away. Neil Stratton: In 2011, y'all took a guy and I was a little surprised, seemed like more of a reach. ⁓ I don't think anyone would call him a reach now, JJ Watt out of Wisconsin. Mike Martin: Yeah, you know what? It ⁓ love it when a plan comes together. You know, and I I can't tell you that ⁓ you know, we ⁓ we thought we knew we were getting a really good player and a really steady and solid player. I did not I I couldn't honestly tell you that we knew we were getting JJ Watt or who the guy that would become JJ Watt, you know? ⁓ but what he had was he was it just he was so such a hard worker and so driven mentally that, you know, he worked himself into what he is and what he became. ⁓ you know, and I've almost never been around a guy like that. You know, I I when I first started I was around the Warren Saps and Simeon Rice and the Derek Brooks, like guys that were just dominant players, and he is in that line. Like he could, he would take over practice. Like if he wanted to, you couldn't do anything in practice. We'd have to tell him, like, you got to take him out so that we can we can run plays and actually have a practice here. And ⁓ but you're talking about someone so committed, right? Like he had he went to bed at a certain time. He only ate certain things during the season. Like, you know, he was he would shut down and lock in and just focus completely on ball. And, you know, that's a guy who. again made himself into what he is and like he deserves every bit of what he got because you know he made the ultimate sacrifices for for what he became. So Neil Stratton: Another grand slam pick in Houston, DeAndre Hopkins out of Clemson in two thousand thirteen. Mike Martin: Yeah, nuke. ⁓ you know, it was awesome ⁓ getting to know him. ⁓ he was named after like the pacifier. Mom nicknamed him Nuke for the Nuke Pacifiers. But, you know, I remember, you know, I was going into Clemson at that point, and he had ⁓ he was he was a tough physical ⁓ player. Like you would think he was a lot bigger than his actual measurables. Like he played like he was 6'4, 6'5, 230 pounds, right? And ⁓ had an innate ability to. to go up and adjust to balls and flight and you know, he gave my son a pair of gloves, ⁓ you know, back when my son was a little boy. And it was funny, we were looking at them the other day. They're size three X. So three XL gloves, like which explains why this guy, he could just spear the ball out of the air. ⁓ one hand catches, one hand grabs, ⁓ you know, really had a basketball background and that and he he he had an ability to kind of go up in the air and just sort of levitate, you know, and defenders would be coming down and he's still kind of going up. And ⁓ it really, really helped him become who he is. And he was another driven guy that, you know, ⁓ again, just loved the guy that he was. He's so tough minded and he such a sort of diligent worker and he really worked him his way into what he what he became and but he was human highlight reel as it relates to you know catching the ball outside of his body. Neil Stratton: Mm-hmm. Another player from Clemson obviously has had his ups and downs, but man boy when he came to Houston when he was first on the scene, what a what a player. Deshaun Watson out of Clemson in 2017. Mike Martin: Yeah, you know, I would say Rick Smith ⁓ was really like he was that was his sort of final act in Houston, I would say. You know, that his his final draft and that was sort of, you know, he sort of ⁓ That was his pick. And he in and we all like all supported it. ⁓ but like I I remember he had this conviction on ⁓ Deshaun and man, like the the the guy was magical. You know, for a time I know he ran into ⁓ injuries and other things, you know, but for a minute there like just complete magic, you know, and he was just dynamic and ⁓ he had a presence about him that the guys followed, you know. I always wondered, you know, it's hard for young guys to come in. and lead these grown men in the locker room and somehow he by the end of training camp like guys were following and believing, you know, and they were like, man, we're gonna be special with this kid, you know, and ⁓ I remember going to Seattle his very first year. We went up to Seattle and I mean we we played Seattle. Like we ended up losing at the very end of the game. But when we got back, we knew we had something, you know, and ⁓ he was a special talent, is a special talent. And, you know, hopefully he's able to get back on track. But he ⁓ uniquely talented dude, man, that could really throw the football, dynamic athlete, but ⁓ his greatest attribute was he just one and knew how to win, whether it was Clemson and even, you know, early on in the NFL, like he just that's if there's the if there's one thing you want your quarterback to have, one gene that they you want him to have, it's the winning gene and he he has it. So Neil Stratton: That's the truth. Okay, just a few more names here. Brian Burns, Florida State. This is during your days in Carolina, 2019. Mike Martin: Yeah, I mean, rare ability, like the guy, you know, tall, long, sorta leaner frame, you know, like everyone we worried about, you know, his ability to hold up versus the run. But what he could do in the past game was special. You know, he could bend and he was explosive off the edge and ⁓ was just ⁓ you know, you we talk about pressure players. He was just a constant source of pressure. And, you know, he's he was that then and he continues to be, you know, and so the guy just has a an elite ability for rushing the passer and he actually's developed into a you know a a functional run player, you know, who can use his length and sort of hold the point and do some things and ⁓ but like he was just such a a ⁓ a rare talent as it related to bend and burst and explosiveness and speed to finish. You know, just a a immensely talented dude. Neil Stratton: Two more, Derek Brown, Auburn, defensive tackle, twenty twenty again during your Carolina run. Mike Martin: Yeah, that was right when I was leaving, but big man that was strong and physical and ⁓ I remember him going to the Combine and and kind of put on a show at the Combine and people were saying, Man, I can't believe this big boy can move like this, you know, and ⁓ you know, he was a grown man. I remember having conversations and talking to him and you knew ⁓ the mentality and the mindset that he was bringing and he was a physical guy at the point of attack that was strong, that could, you know, could two gap, could dominate a single block and just physically disrupt up front in the run game. And ⁓ by the way, you know, he wasn't just, you know, he was he he he would give you something in the pass game. It wasn't, you know, he could he could rush the the passer with power and push the pocket with power. And so he wasn't a throwaway on pass downs either. And ⁓ but just love the way the guy approached the game. He was a physical guy that just, you know, wanted to physically dominate opponents and and still doing that. Yeah. Neil Stratton: More and so many great picks in Detroit, obviously, but one interesting one, Kirby Joseph, a third-rounder out of Illinois, who's really come into his own. Mike Martin: Yeah. Former wide receiver converted safety, played one year at safety and I remember watching ⁓ watching this film and it was weird because like we spent we huddled up and spent, you know, about a month in this in these meetings, you know, trying to figure out how to value what he had. Like we knew he he had like rare ball skills. And although he wasn't super fast, he was fluid and smooth and just could figure out a way to beat receivers to the point, right? Like he would he found a way to get to where he needed to be to make a play. And ⁓ he's still doing that. I mean, I think, you know, in his time in the league, I don't know that that people I he I think he may lead the entire NFL in picks in his time, you know, in the league. ⁓ But like again, former receiver, rare ball skills, naturally instinctive. You got to think again, he played a receiver for most of his time in college. So to flip over and to be able to do what he was doing in that season, you know, his one season at safety, it was, it was rare. And so I think the biggest thing was like, where do you take this guy? You know, like a one-year guy. ⁓ you know, we knew what we saw and we believed what we saw, and we were willing to take it where, you know. on third round where we took him and and ⁓ I'm glad we did, man, cause he he is proven to be worth every bit of that. So Neil Stratton: Hey, what an elite elite talent. 2023. Jameer Gibbs, Jack Campbell, Sam Laporta, Brian Branch. Brad came in that year in 2024 combine and accepted the best draft award and ⁓ was as an aside so kind in the things that he said about the award and about inside the league and went way too far they need to. What made things come together so well that year? Mike Martin: Yeah. Neil Stratton: And when did you know, man, this could be a special class? Mike Martin: Yeah, it was, you know, we we sort of we we blocked out like all outside noise, you know, and we would hunker down and we would kind of go in the lab and we tried to again not be affected by outside influences and we would just watch film and ⁓ And this and kind of come up with a list of players that we loved, right? Like, you know, I think it was I looked at football differently, or I look at football differently after having come from ⁓ Detroit and the way Brad worked and Ray worked and some of the guys there. Like we narrowed it down. Like you can come up with all these lists and all these rankings, but in the end, tell me the guys you love and who you're passionate about. And like we really went into ⁓ our final meetings there and it was Just like, hey, I know how we ranked all these guys. I know all the reports we've written over the years, but just tell me the guys you love. And like all of those guys you mentioned were guys that were just kind of jumping off the the charts in terms of you know, people had just a passion for him, you know. ⁓ I remember ⁓ I loved Sam Laporta, you know, and I was just like, you know, and and it was crazy because it was the year Michael Mayer came out also, you know. But I just it was something about Sam Laporta where, you know, he just he was a receiver, you know, that was just just in in this big body and he could align wide and he knew how to uncover and he was just he caught the ball so easily and it was just I just remember I just I just loved the dude, you know, and I was like, I I don't know where we take but this is a guy we gotta have, you know, and and guys said that about Jameer Gibbs. Like, you know, there were there were other really good backs in that draft, really talented players. But it was like, man, I don't again, I don't care where you gotta take ⁓ Like, let's just get these guys. And so we were able to sort of identify the ones we were passionate about, the ones that we loved. ⁓ and we didn't like get too into the weeds on all the other detail. We sort of just we got to a point where we just simplified it and it was just like Like let's just follow our love and our passion and you know and and our conviction and we did. And fortunately, like that that was a rare draft. And you know, it doesn't always work out that way where it all comes together the way it did, but it did, man. And it was a it was really a special time, special draft, and it was a special process to be a part of. Like, you know, the one thing I appreciated about there is we had a lot of experienced guys that had been other places and had success other places. ⁓ but there was no ego and we all just kind of sat in a room, you know, the John Dorsey's, the Ray Agnews, the, you know, myself, the you know, we just sat there and just kind of hashed through and talked through how we felt about it. And we were able to kind of all get on the same page and and ⁓ again that doesn't happen everywhere but we were able to do it there and we had great success and it was it was awesome to be a part of it. Rodrik David: Well, Mike, we we've spent a bunch of time talking NFL, NFL draft picks, the journey through the league, but that that's a Notre Dame hat you're wearing. You're now sitting here at again one of the premiere programs. Was this something you ever thought, hey, I'm gonna get back to the college game? Again, the GM role at the college level, still relatively new. It's it is still taking shape in a lot of things as every rule changes ever you know twice a week. Mike Martin: Yeah. Yeah, true. Rodrik David: Did did you see yourself d could d could you imagine yourself in this college GM role and and and talk about taking over a program, you know, with with an outstanding head coach in Marcus Freeman, a tradition that's hard to match if it can be matched at all? Talk about all that. Mike Martin: Yeah, you know, to answer your first question, no, I I I didn't ⁓ I never saw myself working in college. Like I the last time I was in college, I I was playing like way back when two thousand three, two thousand two, two thousand three, when I was finishing up at Vandy and you know, I was ⁓ in pursuit of, you know, a GM opportunity in the NFL and in chasing that, you know, and ⁓ And sort of head down in what we were doing in the NFL. And again, like you mentioned, like these are sort of new opportunities. ⁓ this position didn't exist up until what maybe five years ago. And ⁓ in in what the job entails now, ⁓ there's a lot of overlap, you know, there's a lot of ⁓ common commonality between what I'm doing now in college and some of the things that I did while I was in the NFL. And so that to me was the intrigue, but it wasn't something that I really sought because I didn't really honestly I didn't know this type of work really existed until recently. And so, you know, I was I was fortunate enough to be connected with ⁓ Marcus, you know, Kush Freeman, and we sat down and we talked and and what he said he was looking for and and the leadership that you know he wanted to guide our program, you know, I it it was something that, you know, I first bought into him because like he is He's an an and awesome always talk about him being an unusual leader. He's an unusual leader. ⁓ he he believes in in the program, believes in the opportunities and the abilities of of all of our people, not just the players, our staff. And you know, that y there was not one person in the building that had anything negative to say and it just seemed like this would be a great place to work. ⁓ but this would also be a great place to develop these young men into awesome football players, help them to develop to reach their dreams, but also to develop these young men into just good people. And and that was something that we sort of connected on was that, right? Like everyone wants to go and play in the NFL, but we all know what the numbers say, right? The majority of these guys aren't gonna play in the NFL. ⁓ but how can we be influences on them right now and help them? them to become, you know, the best people that they can be, the best fathers, the best sons, the best husbands. And then also how can we help them and put them in position to be successful far beyond the football field? So life afterball. So all of those things, I think, to my 20-something year old self, I probably would have been like, yeah, I'm good, you know, but to my 45-year-old self, you know, who now has a son that's nearing college and a daughter who's right behind him, like Like what's important to me has changed. And I think that this offered me a an awesome opportunity, a you unique opportunity to stay a part of this game that I love, to be in a role that I always aspired to be in, ⁓ but also to have this influence and this impact on these young people. ⁓ and I'm, you know, I couldn't be happier. You know, I couldn't be prouder of the job we're doing here, but I couldn't be happier with this position. Rodrik David: Yeah. Yeah, you talk you talk about buying into Coach Freeman. And again, the the dynamic at the college level, because the college head coach is a little bit more outsized than it is NFL head coach. Again, a little bit different structure. But again, the GM of the college program has to be in lockstep with with the head coach. And again, you nailed that, you get on the same page. And Notre Dame's in a unique spot where again, for a long time they again, national brand, recruit anywhere. We're gonna go get our guys. We can recruit the country where, again, SEC, maybe we can't go to California or the North. That's all changed. Like you said, it's all changed with the portal, with recruiting, with RevShare, with everything. Talk about how valuable that NFL experience is. Again, hey, we're gonna go. be the best evaluators, the best scouts, we're gonna get the right fit, and how you've integrated that in with Coach Freeman, who's who's been a college guy, who's been able to do that at the college level. Mike Martin: Yeah. Well. Right. I think what was important was in you know, in the NFL we're sort of process driven, you know, I would say, not to say that they're not in college, but I think in college, like, you know, for years, ⁓ you saw the rich get richer ⁓ from recruiting like, hey, we're I'm we're Georgia, we're Florida, we're Tennessee. We can get all these five and four stars. And the the numbers suggest that if we just accumulate and amass as many of those as possible, we're gonna be more talented than all the if the half And the have nots, you know, and I think with NIL, ⁓ it was it sort of equalized things to a certain extent. So now everyone has the ability to bring in some top notch players because there's opportunities with NIL, ⁓ with compensation that you're you're able to bring in talented players. So now what's important is that you know. We can't rely on just these stars and trying to get as many five and four stars. And now we have to really like dig into ⁓ being the best evaluators that we can, right? That's what's gonna make the difference, right? Everyone has players now. Now it's who has the right players and who has the players that's best for their system and what they're trying to do and and how they're trying to construct the roster. And so I think that mindset, ⁓ we were able to sort of I was able to bring with me along with this staff. and we're able to kind of create a process that hopefully we can continue to build on, but also something that, you know, that can create sustainability as it relates to bringing in talent. Rodrik David: Yeah, certainly. Well, again, I na Notre Dame's going to be at the front end of it. Again, you guys are still gonna get your talent. You can still recruit nationally. Again, bringing in your background from a scouting, again, capitalizing on it. It's all about fit. Fully expect, regardless of what any memorandums say, Notre Dame gonna be you're gonna be you're going to deserve without question a spot in the playoffs. You got a really fun team. Again, as I as I do some of my evaluation work on the outside, again. Got some quarterbacks, you've got some, you've got a really talented corner that I really like in Leonard Moore. He may be you know cornerback one coming again, it's gonna be really fun. ⁓ as we wrap up, again, you've been on the road as a scout, you've you you're now in the building dealing with scouts, scouting advice, people that want to get into the industry, to the young scouts that are coming through Notre Dame, to the veteran scouts that are going through the process. What are you telling scouts? Hey, if you want To be successful in this industry, have the career that Mike Martin has, what are you telling people wherever they're at in their journey? Mike Martin: I would say, you know, to To build the relationships, one, like I I think the my resources and my relationships were were key. You know, I I had a lot of people that were invested in me. Like this is still scouting and personnel is the people business, you know. And so one, you know, the relationships that you build with your colleagues and with the the employees from other teams, those those were the guys. I remember when I got in, you know, I was one of the I was I can't believe when I left I was one of the older guys. I'm looking around Like, when did this happen? But when I got in, you know, fresh out of college, you know, I had the Ed Lamberts and the other older scouts that would put their arms around me. You know, the COBRCAOs, you know, the world all those guys that would kind of take you under their wing. And like there's so many lessons to be learned from them. So, you know, be cognizant of that. Be aware and know that you can learn something from all of these, all of these positions that you're in, all of these opportunities. but all of the people that you're around. So be make sure that you're you're capitalizing on that and that you're you're receiving the messages that you're supposed to receive. But also I would say, you know, just ⁓ we talked about, you know, it's that you you can't, there's no way to shortcut the work. You know, like you gotta like put your head down and you gotta work. I mean, I think this it's like anything, like Michael Jordan didn't become Michael Jordan without shooting a thousand jump shots a day. Like watch film and grind film and ⁓ continue to to to work your process and ask questions and never get complacent and find ways like even in year like I'm in like year twenty five, twenty-four, whatever it is, I'm still learning each day like different ways and and and and And the lesson can come from anywhere. Like it can come from I have scouting assistants that are showing me different ways that they do things and I'm able to incorporate that into how I move and how I work now. So, you know, just being mindful, being open ⁓ to change and learning and doing different things. ⁓ you know, capitalizing on relationships in schools, I'll I'll say to scouts, like we're in the you you have to have these relationships to get the information that you want. But but the relationship can't be transactional. You know, and I think people understand and they know when it's completely transactional. And I was able to, you know, personally able to build genuine relationships. And my advice to young scouts and and even other scouts that are in the business is just, you know, continue to build those genuine relationships because whether it's now or later, you know, you your past will intersect and there's an opportunity not just for someone at a school to help you, but for you to help the person at the school. ⁓ and I think that, you know, the the relationships that come, ⁓ you're able to build trust. And then with that trust, you're able to Rodrik David: Yeah. Mike Martin: to to get answers and answer questions and ⁓ help to help you find and identify the players that best fit ⁓ your program and your organization. Rodrik David: Yeah, absolutely. Mike Martin: And then last but not least, my advice would be to any young scout, go on to www.marriott.com and make sure you sign up for a Marriott Rewards number because you're gonna be on the road ⁓ quite a bit. Man, I remember 150 nights a year at one point for me, for maybe close to 20 years. you know, it's you you you sign up for a life of of of travel and and being on the road. And if that's something that Rodrik David: Yeah, really. Mike Martin: you know, you're good with then you you know, this it's it's an awesome opportunity, an awesome career opportunity. Rodrik David: I am I am still banking and ⁓ you know capitalizing on my rewards from with the Falcons. And that's been a few years now. So again, that's that's a great piece of advice. And yeah, ⁓ Mike is smarter than both Neil and I, and he is not actively on social media, but you can follow Mike and everything the program is doing at NV Football. If you're not already following Mike, ⁓ again, over there, follow Notre Dame football. Mike, this has been a ton of fun. Good luck to you guys again. Mike Martin: Okay. Rodrik David: Big expectations every year, but this year is gonna be another big special one for you guys. So good luck with everything. Really appreciate you having having ⁓ being on with us. Mike Martin: No, thank you guys. Appreciate you having me. We're excited about the the opportunity that this year brings, right? You know, every year is a new opportunity. ⁓ we're excited about the expectation that's on us. You know, it's like, you know, no one puts expectation on you when when, you know, you're not good or you don't have talent, you know. So like we're proud of the spot that we're in and ⁓ we want to go out and work hard and make the most of it. And so ⁓ you know, we're we're excited about this year and so ready to get rolling. Thank you guys for having me on. This is this has been awesome. ⁓ Neil, it's been a it's been a minute, so this was long overdue. And so ⁓ again, thank you guys for having me. Neil Stratton: Best of luck this year, brother. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Mike Martin: Appreciate it. Thank you. Go Irish.