Latest / IMI Podcasts / #32: The Best Citizenships in Latin America, with MyLatinLife and Bowtied Mara

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#32: The Best Citizenships in Latin America, with MyLatinLife and Bowtied Mara · IMI Podcasts

0:08
SPEAKER_05: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
0:10
SPEAKER_05: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
0:11
SPEAKER_05: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
0:13
SPEAKER_05: in St.
0:13
SPEAKER_05: Kitts.
0:14
SPEAKER_05: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard podcast where we detect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
0:25
SPEAKER_05: I'm your host, Christian Nesame, editor of IMI, and in this episode, I had the pleasure of hosting the men behind two prominent Twitter accounts in the global citizenship space, My Latin Life and Bow Tide Mara.
0:38
SPEAKER_05: We spoke about the fastest paths to citizenship in Latin America, the relative strategic advantages of the various Latin American citizenships, whether there's a physical presence requirement for naturalization in Paraguay, naturalizing in Argentina without becoming a tax resident, the best countries for birth tourism in Latin America, whether the number of Westerners moving to Latin America is as big as it seems on Twitter, how likely Latin American countries are to tighten their naturalization policies in response to growing demand, and whether you can renounce Argentine citizenship, and if you can't, whether that's even an issue.
1:15
SPEAKER_05: All of that and a great deal more in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
1:19
SPEAKER_05: Now, before we start, I'd like to tell you that if you haven't already signed up for a pro membership, you really should consider it simply because it'll make you more money as an investment migration professional.
1:31
SPEAKER_05: With a pro membership, you'll get your very own profile in IMI where clients can contact you directly.
1:37
SPEAKER_05: You'll have full access to our data center, to our private briefings, to our reports, and many other tools and resources that'll help you make more money and become a better investment migration professional.
1:49
SPEAKER_05: Now, with the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
1:57
SPEAKER_05: Well, I want to begin by first discussing how both of you fit into the I don't even know what to call this space, but like global citizenslash passport pros.
2:08
SPEAKER_05: I mean passport pros has become sort of a derogatory term, but sovereign individuals, I guess.
2:14
SPEAKER_05: How do you fit into that community?
2:16
SPEAKER_05: Obviously, you're both uh Latin America enthusiasts.
2:19
SPEAKER_05: You also collect residencies and citizenships.
2:22
SPEAKER_05: Vance.
2:24
SPEAKER_05: You I mean, as far as I'm aware, you probably collected the most residencies and citizenships out of all of us.
2:31
SPEAKER_05: I mean, I don't know if you're happy to disclose, but what are the citizenships and residencies that you have so far?
2:37
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: So I have Canadian, American, Italian citizenship.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: Working on Mexican citizenship, right, and hopefully a few others coming soon.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: And residencies also include Paraguay, Panama, Portugal, and one or two more I'll keep secret.
2:57
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: They say you should always keep like one or two secret, like don't tell a soul type of thing.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
3:14
SPEAKER_05: Mara, you're Dutch originally.
3:16
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
3:17
SPEAKER_05: And I think you mentioned once on Twitter that you kind of held off on getting your Argentina citizenship because of the rules around dual citizenship in the Netherlands.
3:28
SPEAKER_05: But that's since been liberalized, right?
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, no, it's still like the three exceptions apply.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: So that is if you were born in that other country, if you've lived there five years before turning 18, or if you're married to a citizen of that other country.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Only in those three scenarios do you keep your Dutch citizenship if you take on another citizenship.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: So for me now, like, yeah, now that I'm married, et cetera, I can do it, then you know, that wouldn't be an issue.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: So I kind of waited to first give citizenship to my daughters, and then you know, I'll uh renew my passport first, and then I'll I'll get the RG passport after that.
4:06
SPEAKER_05: Nice.
4:06
SPEAKER_05: And I remember you were I mean, we we were kind of sort of half joking.
4:12
SPEAKER_05: I don't know if you were joking or maybe you were serious, but you were you were you told me you were seriously interested in getting the Pakistani Commonwealth CBI citizenship by investment.
4:21
SPEAKER_05: It's it's about 18,000 bucks to get citizenship in Pakistan.
4:26
SPEAKER_05: It's a five million Pakistani rupee deposit, I think.
4:31
SPEAKER_05: Did you look into that?
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you you connected me with a guy, he kind of like walked me through it in more detail, and he's just like, look, this is gonna be kind of insane bureaucracy and headaches like every step of the way.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: And then I think there was even a thing about like a bit of a weird presence requirement in Pakistan while you're waiting for certain documents or something like that.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: So I think ultimately like didn't overly make sense.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: If it was simply 18 grand, give me a passport, I would do it just for the just for laws.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: But I think it I think it's a little bit more involved than that.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
5:21
SPEAKER_05: Then you could you have a fallback with the Comunidad Andina settlement block, right?
5:28
SPEAKER_05: So that's a that's a counter-argument when you say stick to the founding members of Mercosur.
5:33
SPEAKER_05: The founding members of Mercosur are not in Comunidad Andina.
5:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's true.
5:38
SPEAKER_05: Right.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: I I wanted to ask I could add a I could add an anecdote before you switch it up.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: Please do.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: I love anecdotes.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: So I had a client just this past month from Brazil who wanted to migrate to Peru.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: So we you know helped him get his police check from Brazil, get it at Post Steeled, and then all he had to do was book a flight to Peru, and we got him his residency.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: So obviously that's kind of like Mercosur Plus, right?
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Because Peru is not like a founding Mercosur country, but that guy, that Brazilian guy, was still able to literally just fly to Peru and set up shop.
6:19
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so so yeah, it's important to point out that it's not it's not Mercosur like membership in Mercosur in itself that's important.
6:28
SPEAKER_05: It's what's important is that the country's part of the Mercosur residency agreement.
6:33
SPEAKER_05: And they're they're two different things.
6:34
SPEAKER_05: I mean they largely overlap, but not not completely.
6:38
SPEAKER_05: But yeah, it's an excellent point, Mance.
6:41
SPEAKER_05: It's it's practically I mean it's it's one level of complication above the European Union, because in the European Union you literally just show up and you have all the same rights already.
6:53
SPEAKER_05: Here in the medical school residency agreement, you have to at least bring them a police certificate.
7:00
SPEAKER_05: But that's it.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: That's basically it.
7:02
SPEAKER_05: Yep.
7:02
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: And I I would I would like to see an overview.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: I've never done this, but this uh I'm I'm gonna give this task to myself to actually per country see what they accept of each other, because I do think there's a difference there.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, if you check on medical school residency in Argentina, they literally like list every single country, even Suriname and Guyana.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: They can come here, they only need their criminal record clean, and then they can come and live here.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's the same case in every single country.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: So that would be interesting to see like who accepts who within this uh Mercosur residency block.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: Because I think Brazil is a lot stricter uh with that.
7:43
SPEAKER_05: But is that a unilateral thing for Argentina?
7:47
SPEAKER_05: I mean, is it related to the Mercosur residency agreement, or is it just they're saying like everybody in South America is welcome, whether you're in Mercosur or not?
7:56
SPEAKER_01: They they call that the Mercosur temporary residency.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: And uh they also have an additional plus for Brazilians, which is completely, you know, on their kind of behalf.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: Is like a Brazilian can show up with the same documents, and instead of getting the two-year temporary, which is for all the rest of the Mercosur citizens, Brazilian gets permanent residency right away.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: So they don't even have to wait the two years, they immediately get permanent residency in Argentina.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Now I think vice versa, in if an Argentine goes to Brazil, that's not the case.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: I do think they have like a two-year span, too, that they have to live there first before they get permanent.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: But like those things I would like to check to see like how reciprocal those things are, and uh you know, because there's a lot of disparity, I think, between countries.
8:44
SPEAKER_05: I'm sure, I'm sure.
8:45
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, just like there is within the CPLP, right?
8:48
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
8:50
SPEAKER_05: So a more difficult question for me to answer is essentially once you have an EU citizenship, now you're in that block, and then you have you get your medical school citizenship.
9:01
SPEAKER_05: The the first two that you should aim for, there's pretty clear what the two the two best SSBs are.
9:07
SPEAKER_05: But then what's what's number three?
9:09
SPEAKER_05: Is it CARICOM?
9:10
SPEAKER_05: Is it common travel area, or maybe the Compact of Free Association, which includes the United States and four tiny islands in the Pacific?
9:19
SPEAKER_05: Where would what what would be your priority number three?
9:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I think for me, probably the Central American block, which is you know probably not that interesting for most, but just because I'm more interested in Latin America, like you know, I could see that being an option for me.
9:35
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
9:37
SPEAKER_05: The Central America Four.
9:39
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they have they have no border controls.
9:41
SPEAKER_05: It's that's kind, but that's not exactly a settlement block because you don't get the right to settle.
9:47
SPEAKER_05: What you do get is it's like Schengen, it's like the Schengen area.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: But okay, got it.
9:52
SPEAKER_05: So four countries, it's El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Nicaragua.
9:58
SPEAKER_05: And basically, once you're in, you're in.
10:01
SPEAKER_05: So you can move freely within those countries.
10:04
SPEAKER_05: But you still, it doesn't mean that you have like I don't think Hondurans have a right to settle forever in let's say El Salvador without any paperwork.
10:15
SPEAKER_05: But it's it's probably moving in that direction.
10:20
SPEAKER_05: What what do you think about CARICOM?
10:22
SPEAKER_05: That's uh CARICOM residency agreement, that's 12 countries, but it's tiny though.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, isn't that like mainly the Caribbean island groups and then Yeah.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:33
SPEAKER_05: It's the s it's the smallest of the settlement blocks.
10:35
SPEAKER_05: I mean smallest in in terms of the square area, smallest in terms of GDP and so on.
10:44
SPEAKER_05: It's interesting, but but still it's you know it's 12 countries, so it's something.
10:49
SPEAKER_05: Another one that's really interesting is you know, if you get Irish citizenship, then you're part of not only the EU EEA bloc, but you're also part of the common travel area, which means now you can settle in not only Ireland, but also the UK, so England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey, and so on.
11:14
SPEAKER_05: So that's also interesting.
11:16
SPEAKER_05: Then you have the Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement, which is just Australia and New Zealand, and for people who want something more exotic, there's the Eurasian Economic Union, which is actually really well integrated.
11:32
SPEAKER_05: It's almost at the level I mean, it's kind of like Mercosur in terms of integration.
11:37
SPEAKER_05: But it's so Russia, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Belarus, and Armenia, so you can move and settle freely in those countries.
11:45
SPEAKER_05: But you know, it's not for everybody.
11:48
SPEAKER_05: And but look, I want to talk to you guys about Latin America because I think it's the most interesting region in terms of of citizenship for a number of reasons.
12:00
SPEAKER_05: First of all, because it's it's so much easier to get citizenship in in the Americas than it is in most other regions of the world, or it's easier than every other region in the world.
12:13
SPEAKER_05: So among the among the top ten countries worldwide that have the shortest ordinary naturalization periods, seven of them are in Latin America.
12:25
SPEAKER_05: And in fact, countries in the Americas have the shortest naturalization periods overall, averaging just 5.4 years, and that's compared to eight or nine years in the other continents on average.
12:37
SPEAKER_05: And several countries in Latin America actually offer naturalization in as little as two years.
12:42
SPEAKER_05: Argentina is one of them, obviously.
12:44
SPEAKER_05: Peru is another Dominican Republic.
12:48
SPEAKER_05: Let me put this question to you, Vance.
12:50
SPEAKER_05: What is it about Latin America that makes it so open to giving out citizenship, you think, compared to others?
12:58
SPEAKER_00: That is a good question.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm sure there's tons of different factors.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: I think because just historically it's needed migration, it's an absolutely gigantic place.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Like South America is absolutely gigantic, Latin America is even bigger.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: I think it's just always historically been open.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: Like the Americas in general, it's not just the Latin-speaking countries, it's the United States, Canada, the Caribbean, Latin America, these places, like the entire America is has always been historically very open to migration.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: So I really think it's just kind of that.
13:34
SPEAKER_05: Mara, do you think it's it's just the politicians there?
13:38
SPEAKER_05: I mean, when when they first settled these areas, they were like, okay, we need to settle these all all this square mileage with Spaniards before the Portuguese come and and claim it.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: Is that I think the mass movement, at least in Argentina, is is a little bit uh after that.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: They weren't that preoccupied with uh the big settlements uh right after they got their independence from Spain.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: But around 1850, they specifically have this uh philosophical movement as well, where they in the and this is during the writing of the Constitution, where they stayed like, okay, we need to promote you know European immigration or whatever, because that's just what they knew, and we need to, you know, naturalize them rather quickly, etc.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: And we need to populate these lands because that was the same around the same time that the whole southern part of Argentina, like almost half of the country or more, was still like a no-man's land and uh was not occupied by Argentina, basically.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: So it was either Argentina or Chile that would get that slice of the of the cake.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: So they needed to uh have a campaign to to conquer that from uh you know the uh the uh original tribes that were still living there, more nomadic tribes, there weren't that many.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: And they need a lot of people basically to settle here and and just uh you know claim lands.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think that happened throughout Latin America in a lot of places.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think it was uh purposefully, you know, making it easy and and getting in as much immigration as possible.
15:14
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and you and you see that's that's a tactic that's still used today, you know, the tactic of saying if we get our people to settle these areas, then we'll have a stronger claim to these areas, right?
15:28
SPEAKER_05: So this is what the Chinese have been doing in Xinjiang, this is what Russians are doing in in the Donbass, right?
15:36
SPEAKER_05: Or in Crimea, whatever.
15:38
SPEAKER_05: Like if you can get your people in there, then you can say, oh, but look, uh, the majority of people who live here are our nationality, so really this should be part of our country, not whatever it is today.
15:47
SPEAKER_05: So it's a strategy that that's worked historically, and I'm not surprised that it's still in use today.
15:52
SPEAKER_05: But what I'm curious about now is now that I mean it may just be because we we live on Twitter and it seems like the whole world is just moving to Latin America.
16:04
SPEAKER_05: It certainly seems that way on my Twitter feed, when you know it's populated by posts of of guys like you, that it's just super hot, everybody wants to go to Latin America, want to get citizenship in medical school residencies, etc.
16:17
SPEAKER_05: Do you think that with this large movement of people coming in to take advantage of the, let's say, lax naturalization requirements that that there's a risk that the countries might say, you know what, uh let's let's put a moratorium on this, let's take a little pause in immigration?
16:34
SPEAKER_05: Or is it is it just me that is it just in my world that it seems that there's a lot of people moving to Latin America and in reality it's just a trickle?
16:44
SPEAKER_00: I think the numbers are definitely smaller than it probably seems.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: Like if you take Mexico, which is probably one of the most popular countries, they only get something on the order of 10,000 new residents or new American residents per year.
17:00
SPEAKER_03: That's nothing.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like very, very small.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: And so you think there's basically like a million people going over the US border per month, yeah, and there's 10,000 per year, or maybe like 1,000 per month going to Mexico.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: So it's like orders of magnitude smaller.
17:20
SPEAKER_05: But is that sorry, just a thousand a month or 10,000 a year?
17:25
SPEAKER_05: That's I mean, are you counting all categories of I mean, are we counting rentista visa?
17:31
SPEAKER_05: Well, they don't have rentista.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's like Americans taking any residence in Mexico.
17:38
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, just Americans, but that's the biggest group.
17:41
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, that'll be the biggest group anyway.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's like the country that's the most open to migration, really.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, like Brazil's not really receiving migrants.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Argentina is who else is?
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, no one's I mean, they're all like open to it, but no one's receiving like super massive numbers.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: There's probably more internal movement than there is movement from say Europe.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's lots of Brazilians coming to Paraguay, there's lots of Venezuelans going everywhere, there's lots of Guatemalans going to Mexico, I guess.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: So there's probably like by the numbers, there's more internal migration than there is international immigration.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: They're very open to it, like it's honestly very easy to do.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why it's not more, I guess, but that's kind of just to put things in context.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: It's you know, we talk about how popular it is on Twitter and these things, but the the actual numbers are really quite small because we're just a small core corner of the internet.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: But you know, I maybe we're just early, and we are early because we've obviously spotted this thing and we have that intellectual curiosity, and and over the past couple of years we've certainly seen it growing.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: But it's it is small.
18:56
SPEAKER_05: Do you have that impression, Bans?
18:58
SPEAKER_05: You have the impression that it's growing?
18:59
SPEAKER_05: This let's say let's let's call them passport bros for for lack of a better term.
19:05
SPEAKER_05: Is that is that uh is that growing, or is it does it just seem that way to us?
19:10
SPEAKER_00: I think it's absolutely growing.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: I think even if you just you know ask people at a Thanksgiving dinner, the sentiment certainly changed after 2020.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: Like if you spoke to someone with the first world passport, American, Canadian, Norway passport back in 2019, and you said, Hey, why don't we like move to Portugal and get the Portuguese passport in five years, blah blah blah, like they'd be like, dude, we have there's no reason we need to do that.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, like, what am I gonna do with the second passport?
19:41
SPEAKER_05: But I think post-2020 everyone kind of realized the importance of how you know visas can can change and and and all the rest of it, travel freedoms can be curtailed and and seeing how open Mexico was, for example, for Americans, like right across the border was practically you know normal life.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: I I think uh Canada is actually uh a very good case if you look at it in the last two, three years, because the emigration has has gone through the roof, basically.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: We see it with you know applications for E2 visas, EB5, so a lot of Canadians going to the US as well.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's like a combination of the pandemic measures that they had in Canada, you know, combined with the current policies and you know, taxes maybe that they just got fed up and and started to leave.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: But uh it's it's interesting that they're actually doing it and that it does have a like a lag a little bit of like a year or so before they of course they need to get their stuff together and do it, but now you can really see those numbers spike.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: I think the 2023 has been a record of outflow, but still the net migration I think is positive.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: So there's still more people coming to Canada, but then the question is who is leaving and who is coming.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like very interesting right now.
21:04
SPEAKER_05: Obviously, Vance, you have your finger on that pulse, I'm sure.
21:07
SPEAKER_05: But I mean, just from the outside, what it looks like to me is just like uh Mara's explaining, you know, you have you have young guys that have remote jobs like yourself, they're leaving Canada for Latin America in a lot of cases, and who's coming in?
21:26
SPEAKER_05: Well, it's I I think the other day I saw a statistic that said it's like a third of the the new arrivals to Canada are from India, and a lot of the a lot of it is frankly third world immigration to Canada.
21:39
SPEAKER_05: So it's on the one hand, you are like the third world is coming to Canada, and the third world is having a lot more kids in Canada than the locals.
21:49
SPEAKER_05: And in addition, like on top of that, you have the uh local Canadians leaving and probably I mean, what are the drivers of that?
21:57
SPEAKER_05: It's I if I had to guess, I would say Well, it's all the wokeness, it's all the you know restrictions on free speech, it's what they did to the truckers during the pandemic uh with the freezing of accounts, it's it's uh super high taxes, and and there's another factor which is not new, but which is important nonetheless.
22:17
SPEAKER_05: It's you have a crap climate, right?
22:20
SPEAKER_05: So what what are you seeing, Vance, in your among your Canadian friends?
22:25
SPEAKER_05: And are people leaving en masse?
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, cost of living, it's taxes.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean, one other big thing that happened in 2020 was just the percentage of the population that works remote has grown exponentially.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: And once you start working remote, or better yet, you become entrepreneur and you're not working for a company, you're much less reliant on that system or that government.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: And it starts the calculus changes.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're working a job and you pay 50% taxes, you're kind of like, I don't know, it's part of the deal.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: But if you earn that money yourself because you have a social media marketing agency, and then you have to give 50% of it to the Canadian government, you start being like, you know what, this kind of sucks.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and maybe for some people it takes a year or two of doing that before they say, like, why am I giving away this 50% when they didn't help me earn it, type of thing.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: So I think it is kind of something that is a slow, a slow roll, and then people say, you know what, I'm I'm trying to leave.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: But definitely a lot of people try to, or definitely like a lot of people are trying to leave, and it's a combination of everything, right?
23:33
SPEAKER_00: It's the it's the cost of living, it's mass migration, it's a little bit of everything.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I remember um when I went to your Malta event, you actually had a guy there, like an Indian guy, who helps Indians move to Canada and stuff like that, and he helps them get the student visa and stuff.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: And so, just as much as you know, we know your friend Nomad Capitalist and kind of the English-speaking influencers, I need to do like a deep dive on what the hell they're saying in the Hindi accounts or something, right?
24:03
SPEAKER_00: There's probably some hilarious like Hindi TikTok accounts because someone is is motivating these 1.4 million people that moved to Canada last year and so forth.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, you've probably seen like some TikToks here and there about people like getting taught how to cross the southern border and like where to cross and that kind of thing.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And there's probably like way more of these that we haven't even found yet.
24:27
SPEAKER_05: There's probably a Twitter account called My Canadian Life, you know, uh in Hindi.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:36
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's funny to me how I mean I say funny, but what I mean is it's very encouraging to me to see that basically all the predictions from the sovereign individual, the book that came out in '97, it's all coming true.
24:54
SPEAKER_05: It's all coming true in in the same order that that book predicted, which is essentially capital and people are becoming mobile, and when they're not, when their incomes are not tied to a location anymore, then they I mean, we spoke about this when I was in your podcast, Mass, how basically technology is setting people free and allowing them to shop around for jurisdictions.
25:23
SPEAKER_05: And I think we're right now at sort of the intersection of, you know, people have woken up and they're starting to leave and they're starting to realize I can live with a lower cost of living and way lower taxes and way better weather in other places because my income is remote now.
25:45
SPEAKER_05: We've reached that stage.
25:47
SPEAKER_05: The stage we haven't yet reached fully, I think, is when the governments start to say, hey, we're we're losing all our best brains to countries that offer better terms.
25:59
SPEAKER_05: And I feel as though that that second, I mean, the the what's the phrase?
26:05
SPEAKER_05: The the sh the the the other shoe hasn't dropped yet, right?
26:08
SPEAKER_05: Where where the governments recognize that actually we need to compete more.
26:12
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: I think like the digital nomad visa is probably like one of the first iterations.
26:18
SPEAKER_03: One manifestation of it, yeah, yeah.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one manifestation.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: I think we're gonna see more and more of that.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: And how like sometimes it's not even about the country.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: People just want to live in a particular city, right?
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and but yeah, we're gonna we're gonna see a huge thing around around competition between governments and and cities in the future.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's funny to see this play out like in real time in Amsterdam, for example.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know this, but I did some research after seeing some videos, and I thought, like, is it really the case?
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Because in one video they stated like more than half of the population in Amsterdam is foreign.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: So I started digging it and stuff, and then I found out that about 30% is non-Western foreigners, and then the other 23% or something is Western foreigners, so that means expats, and then looking into there's actually government programs to get like brains into Amsterdam, they can live there for like two or three years, don't pay taxes, and it's all to work for local companies usually, and it's a way of the Netherlands like trying to get talent and retain it in a way, and you know, the the side effect of that is that you know housing has gone through the roof, it's like super expensive to live in Amsterdam now because these people all have like high salaries, etc.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, that's the way they try to sort of prevent a brain drain by you know attracting talent from other places.
27:46
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's it's funny.
27:47
SPEAKER_05: You you who who would have thought, you know, just a decade ago, that your European countries, that North American countries would have to take measures to stem brain drain, right?
27:59
SPEAKER_05: That was always a problem in the third world.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:03
SPEAKER_05: It's interesting.
28:05
SPEAKER_05: Okay, let me get back a bit to to citizenships in Latin America because the opportunities are practically endless.
28:14
SPEAKER_05: So I I want to discuss which citizenships in Latin America merit the most attention.
28:21
SPEAKER_05: So I want each of you to sort of highlight which Latin country you would most recommend for in different categories here, people looking for ordinary naturalization.
28:33
SPEAKER_05: So that's like, you know, a single guy that has no ties to the country and he wants to naturalize.
28:38
SPEAKER_05: Then there are people who want to do birth tourism, there are people who are from what we call preferred nationalities, because there's a lot of countries in Latin America that have a fast track to naturalization if you're from the right country, typically from a Spanish-speaking country.
28:52
SPEAKER_05: And then also for people who are considering marrying a local citizen and get citizenship that way.
28:59
SPEAKER_05: So let's start with ordinary naturalization.
29:02
SPEAKER_05: What I can tell you right off the bat, I can tell you which countries are the fastest for ordinary naturalization, not just in Latin America, but in the world.
29:11
SPEAKER_05: Argentina, two years, two years of residency.
29:15
SPEAKER_05: Dominican Republic, same thing, two years.
29:18
SPEAKER_05: Peru, two years.
29:23
SPEAKER_05: Canada, three years, after PR.
29:26
SPEAKER_05: You gotta so once you get PR in Canada, I mean it's not Latin America, but it's it's the Americas.
29:31
SPEAKER_05: Honduras, three years of residency, Paraguay, three years of residency.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: One question about Paraguay, because is it the case that with your you know, one day or two days a year kind of residency in Paraguay, does that count towards citizenship, or do you really need to live there in order to get the citizenship?
29:53
SPEAKER_05: So the the answer is I I don't know.
29:55
SPEAKER_05: Um, and I'm personally very interested in getting a clear-cut answer to that question for reasons I won't disclose, but I can tell you that what the law says is that you have to have so there's no there's no there's no provision in the law that says you must spend the majority of your year in Paraguay to to naturalize.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: Actually, there kind of is.
30:20
SPEAKER_05: Is there?
30:20
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:22
SPEAKER_05: So here's what was explained to me, and I haven't personally read the law.
30:25
SPEAKER_05: I'm sure you have.
30:26
SPEAKER_05: What was explained to me was you have to have arraigos, right?
30:30
SPEAKER_05: You have to have ties, you have to have links to the Paraguay community, and then there are various ways of arguing that you have links.
30:37
SPEAKER_05: It might be that you own property, it might be that you have a job there, it might be you know bank accounts, SIM cards, what have you.
30:43
SPEAKER_05: But are you saying there is a hard and fast rule about physical presence?
30:48
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say it's like a law, but it's like a decree from the Supreme Court saying that you have to spend nine months a year in Paraguay, and you can't have spent more than three consecutive months outside of Paraguay.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's been around for over a year now, and then they actually put out like a addendum or like restated it actually just a couple weeks ago, something like that.
31:15
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
31:15
SPEAKER_05: Nine months out of the year.
31:17
SPEAKER_05: And it just came out a year ago?
31:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, something like that.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know the exact day, but yeah, I had a buddy like go into the Supreme Court and says, like, hey, like what's what's the deal?
31:26
SPEAKER_00: And then they gave him this piece of paper that said that.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: Wow and then I got informed that they like put out a new statement a couple weeks ago, basically reiterating the same thing.
31:36
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
31:37
SPEAKER_05: That's not good news for a lot of people.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: That makes it even harder than Argentina, because yeah, I think here it's a max or minimum of six, six to seven months that you have to stay in the country in order to you know retain your residency and then eventually apply for citizenship.
31:54
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so when you mentioned that about Argentina and how long you have to stay to uh in those first two years, I had a question, I I took some questions from the audience yesterday on Twitter.
32:08
SPEAKER_05: Jason wants to know, is it possible to become a citizen of Argentina without also becoming tax resident for those two years?
32:17
SPEAKER_05: So I know that, for example, in Spain, if you want to get, if you want to naturalize, however, whatever track you're on, some some people are on two-year tracks, some people are on ten-year tracks, right?
32:29
SPEAKER_05: But in Spain, the rule is you gotta spend minimum 180 days a year in Spain.
32:36
SPEAKER_05: That's three days less than it would take to make you tax resident, right?
32:42
SPEAKER_05: So it means that if you count your days in Spain like very cautiously, technically it's possible to get to to naturalize in Spain, but also not become tax resident.
32:54
SPEAKER_05: What's the case in Argentina as far as you know?
32:57
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not sure about the theory or what's on paper, but what's in what in practice happens is that as if people are on a Ventista visa or they work for a local company and have a work visa, for example, usually for the work visa their their taxes are collected directly at the source, so withhold from their withheld from their uh salaries.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: And for the rest, you know, they would really have to try to file more taxes than that.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Basically, for most employees, nobody ever you know files taxes if they just have their own home and maybe a car or something.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people don't do a declaration at the end of the year.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: For the rentista, basically the amount that you wire, which is around$2K a month, the government assumes that you live off that that money and you don't have any other tax obligations.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: So you don't really become a tax resident, you know, no matter what the if it's like 183 days, and there's even an arrangement where the first five years, if you work for a local company, you don't have to pay taxes here except for the what they withhold on your your salary.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: So in practice, people just don't don't file like because on paper you would have to you know file taxes over all your worldwide you know assets, etc.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: But but in practice that that just doesn't happen.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: But they do check your presence, they check your presence through migrations, so they see when you entered and exit exited.
34:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: But even that is not controlled that you know uh securely when you go and request citizenship.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: When you want to renew your visa, then yes, like because that is admigraciones, and they actually check when you know snaps in your passport or the uh the files in the computer, and they check when you entered and left the country.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: And based on you know, if you've been out of the country for you know more than half the year, then they won't renew your your visa because you weren't really living here.
35:12
SPEAKER_05: Can you do the trick where you leave over land leave Argentina over land, for example, you yeah, and you go into one of the neighboring countries and then fly out of there?
35:22
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's something you could do.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's something you could do.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: When you get to the citizenship procedure, you do have to you do have to like show some ties.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: Like the arraigo, like you said, in Paraguay, it's sort of the same here where you know if you uh it can be a house, it can be, you know, uh other other bills or whatever, but you do have to show that you have ties to the country, basically.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: And then it's a judge who decides if you get citizenship or not.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: Now the vast majority is is accepted.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: They're you know, it's not that common to uh to have a refusal.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: Usually what you know uh what we hear is that if you need a lawyer, then they become like you know, more detailed and check, okay, like maybe there's something fishy with this because they need a lawyer, because otherwise you could do it on your own.
36:13
SPEAKER_05: Right.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:15
SPEAKER_05: So maybe the best is to like have a lawyer advising you, just like not bring him to the meetings.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
36:21
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: And and as far as I know, Argentina is one of the few countries, and this might change with Malay, where technically in the Constitution it says like any inhabit any habitantes, or anybody living on Argentine soil after two years can get citizenship.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: And it does happen that people you know get into the country, overstay their visa, they don't actually have a valid visa anymore, and they could still apply for citizenship.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: They might change this in the future where they say, like, look, you're you you didn't have a visa.
36:54
SPEAKER_05: You have to be a legal resident.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have to be a legal resident, but as far as of now, that still happens.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: The case is just a little bit harder.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: It's way better to have residency, you know, legal residency, and then your case is a lot stronger.
37:08
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I and I also think for for most people, especially in our community, it's the hurdle of getting links or ties to the country is easier to overcome than the physical presence requirements.
37:22
SPEAKER_05: So if you can uh if you can figure that out, that's that's the best.
37:28
SPEAKER_05: Okay, I I have more questions from the audience also about Argentina.
37:31
SPEAKER_05: I'll leave that for the end.
37:32
SPEAKER_05: But for now, what's your number one?
37:35
SPEAKER_05: Let's start with you, Vance.
37:37
SPEAKER_05: What's your number one recommendation for ordinary naturalization in South America, in Latin America?
37:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: I I think it probably is important to preface this by saying that Latin America is really good for residency and obtaining residency quickly, but passports are slightly a different story because in most countries it's civil law and it's going to be assessed by a judge, and it's sort of a mosaic picture where they're kind of looking at your holistic situation, your arraigos, your ties, and this and that.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: So it's not the same as, say, in Canada or Europe, where it's like, okay, you did the 270 days, like now we issue the passport, bing bam, boom.
38:22
SPEAKER_05: So it's a it's a qualitative argument that you're doing.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: It's more qualitative, and yeah, it's just not meant to be like boom, like issue it the next day type of thing.
38:34
SPEAKER_00: So with that being said, we do know kind of which countries are more like that, where they're more, you know, they'll just issue it if you meet the qualifications.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: And then there are other countries where we know that they're just really not issuing the passports even if you qualify.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Panama is a good example.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: Is the famous example.
38:56
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
38:56
SPEAKER_05: What what are some examples of the opposite where you say it's if you take the boxes, they let you in?
39:03
SPEAKER_00: So the so yeah, so that kind of comes back to your original question was like, which countries should you put the time in and get the citizenship?
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: So I would say basically the ones you said, Peru, do the put in the two years, they'll actually give you the passport.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: Argentina, do the two years, they'll actually give you the passport.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: Dominican, probably gonna have some classic Dominican Manana bureaucracy, but they should give you the passport eventually.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: And how amazing is that?
39:32
SPEAKER_00: Because with if you just did two years, two years, two years, six years in the future, maybe you're 30 years old today.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: By the time you're 36, 37, you're gonna have three new passports.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, how incredible is that, right?
39:44
SPEAKER_00: So I think I think the three mentioned are are great.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: And then I would probably add Mexico to that as well.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: With Mexico, it's technically a five-year path to citizenship, but there's only 18 months of physical presence in the in the last two years, in years four and five.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's just 18 months of presence.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: So that's uh and they'll actually issue you the passport.
40:05
SPEAKER_05: So are you planning are you planning on doing that once you have your Mexican citizenship?
40:11
SPEAKER_05: Are you gonna move on to a spend time in a couple other Latin American countries?
40:15
SPEAKER_05: I know you're a family man, so I don't know how it's easy how easy it is to combine that.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: I I do want to do something.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: I am itching to mix it up.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, really cool.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: So those would be the four I would say.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, what else could you even add to that?
40:31
SPEAKER_00: Those probably really are the big four: Mexico, Dominican, Peru, and Argentina, in terms of you know, fast path to citizenship with you know less than two years invested.
40:46
SPEAKER_05: Mara?
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think uh I think I agree with that.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: Well, Mexico, is that only two years?
40:52
SPEAKER_01: It's longer, right?
40:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's 18 months physical presence within a 24-month period during years four and five, or if you get married or have a kid, then it you you skip the first three years and it goes straight to that 18 months situation.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's the same here.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think in in Brazil and other countries it's similar where if you have a kid who's like an Argentine or you're married to one, then you know it's you could even do it after a year already, apply for citizenship.
41:24
SPEAKER_05: That's a really good deal.
41:26
SPEAKER_05: And one thing that a lot of people don't think about when it comes to Mexico, obviously Mexico is not part of Mercosur, but it is part of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation, APEC.
41:40
SPEAKER_05: And if you're a citizen of one of those countries and you you are a person who does business, you can get an APEC business travel card, which gives you visa-free, short-term visa-free access to a huge part of the globe.
41:57
SPEAKER_05: So that's countries including Russia, China, Australia, Canada, Chile, Hong Kong, New Zealand, Mexico, obviously, United States, Thailand, Taiwan, etc.
42:10
SPEAKER_05: So that's an an underexplored advantage of that.
42:14
SPEAKER_05: Okay, so let's consider birth tourism.
42:18
SPEAKER_05: I I'm expecting my first child next month, and I I tried to convince my wife to fly out to Chile or something like this to give birth.
42:30
SPEAKER_05: She wasn't too she wasn't too hot on that idea just last minute.
42:35
SPEAKER_05: So my child will be born here in in Portugal, and so she will be born actually with four citizenships on day one.
42:44
SPEAKER_05: One of them will be Portuguese, because here you as long as the parents have been legal residents for at least a year when the child is born, then you have just solely you have birthright citizenship also here in Portugal.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
42:57
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and it's not very normal in in the European countries, and it's quite new.
43:02
SPEAKER_05: It was only uh introduced three or four years ago, this provision.
43:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
43:07
SPEAKER_05: So, but yeah, it's a it's a good opportunity to have it to get your EU citizenship, just be a resident for one year in in Portugal and and your kid will be born there.
43:17
SPEAKER_05: Okay, to looking at Latin America, there are several popular birth tourism destinations.
43:23
SPEAKER_05: Practically every country in Latin America has just Sulli.
43:29
SPEAKER_05: They have birthright citizenship.
43:31
SPEAKER_05: So, what differentiates the countries in terms of how attractive they are for birth tourism is the degree to which the parents of that child can get citizenship on the basis of their child having been born in that country and getting citizenship.
43:47
SPEAKER_05: So the ones that are typically mentioned are Brazil, Argentina, and Chile.
43:53
SPEAKER_05: Those are the three big birth tourism destinations.
43:57
SPEAKER_05: So I want you both of you to give me your take on you know which one is the best for for those uh looking to uh to gain citizenship by by giving birth to a child in Latin America.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: I think Mexico is a big one too, right?
44:11
SPEAKER_01: For birth tourism.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: Do parents have like a yeah they get the 18 months as we talked about.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: They get instant PR and then they put in 18 months.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah I do think it's the same in at least Argentina and Brazil.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: In Chile I I do know that there's like it's a little bit harder for the parents.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't know the exact details but I read that a while back that for birth tourism in Chile you do have to do additional stuff that you don't have to do in Argentina and Brazil.
44:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah I think so let me just see I had an overview someone posted a great overview I think it was it's funny because it's the only country with Esther for the US and Argentina used to have Esther in the 90s and they used to have visa-free travel to the US and they took that away after so many Chinese supermarkets started opening here because China during that those years had a government kind of program where you know a family would get I think$50,000 to start a business offshore somewhere and Argentina was one of those places so we you know all of a sudden there was like a bunch of Chinese supermarkets popping up left and right and of course all these people after two years got their Argentine citizenship which was a way better travel document than their Chinese technically you know they can't have dual citizenship I believe but in practice everybody does that so then they kind of shut off the Esta Visa for Argentina after that.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: And it wouldn't surprise me that because of this like Chile is always a little bit more complicated just because they don't want to lose that.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: One thing I would add if I can just add one more thing is we actually don't know how this works with some of the smaller countries because we literally just don't have that many anecdotes.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: So if you took something like an Ecuador or a Nicaragua or a Honduras or some of these countries we just don't know what happens when a gringo gives birth to a baby we probably can assume that they'll get like instant PR or TR, right?
46:22
SPEAKER_00: We don't know if it's P or R or T R or you know if they're gonna be able to get citizenship right away.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: So some of this stuff is just so new in terms of people kind of having eyes on it that there's no precedent there's no precedent.
46:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean I'm sure people have done it but they're just not like out there with it.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: So it's something that we're we're definitely very interested in and we're gonna have to work together in the future My Latin life and I am I and keep compiling information on this stuff.
46:51
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
46:52
SPEAKER_05: Kevron Sutton on Twitter asks if it's true that once you've naturalized in Mexico that you need to visit Mexico at least once every seven years to retain your citizenship.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't know off the top of my head a lot of countries have that though where you have to at least visit at one point.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: Right.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: But but like who's gonna it's not automatic that you lose it people got to remember like some random bureaucrat would have to probably start like a judicial process you know what I mean it's not like an automatic stripping from you.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: So another thing we don't even have that many precedents on.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah I I do think for that one probably the most important is to always renew your passport and never you know get to the due date where it expires because once your passport expires then yes a lot of countries have issues of like renewing the passport if you have an expired one very good point.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: Very good point.
47:51
SPEAKER_05: All right Vance we'll let you go we'll carry on for a bit more Mara ciao thank you so much thank you so much.
47:58
SPEAKER_05: Thanks guys all right I got a couple questions for you from the audience Mara Latinhaven would like a definitive answer as to whether it's possible to renounce Argentinian citizenship we've talked about this in the past Argentine citizenship is supposed to be non-renounceable you've argued that it's not a big deal even if you can't renounce it because I mean the the the fear many have is that one day a country will impose citizenship-based taxation like the Americans and then you'd want to renounce that citizenship but what if you can't you've argued that it's it's not a big deal first of all why is it not a big deal that you can't renounce it and the second question is are you sure it cannot be renounced?
48:47
SPEAKER_01: So yeah first of all I don't think it's a big issue because there's no way Argentina can enforce citizenship taxation plus they would need to change the constitution for that why can't they enforce it?
49:01
SPEAKER_01: Like there's only two countries in the world that have citizenship based taxation which is the US and Eritrea and guess who who who can actually enforce it?
49:10
SPEAKER_01: Not Eritrea.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: And Argentina although it's like a bigger country bigger economy they could never enforce something like this just because they don't own the banking rails and you know the US has that enforcement mechanism either because they have a lot of control over Swift and you know all these banking and transaction flows or just because everybody wants to do business with the US and they will just comply and you can really see that because any kind of bank here in Argentina or in Europe doesn't matter like they will always ask are you a resident or a citizen in the US and same Europe they always ask and they're not gonna they're not gonna add an additional box if Argentina decides to to do that right I mean there's just no way because the US for implementing FATCA they didn't even have to re-sign all their treaties.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: Now France looked into this because they were thinking about you know we might do citizenship based taxation because so many of our billionaires are leaving.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: So they looked into it and they would actually have to re-sign a lot of their trade agreements with other countries and then it would just be the question if if they would get enough back from that and they made like the calculation that it would actually have a negative return implementing something like this.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: Now if it would for France would be a negative return imagine for a country like Argentina right because and it's even worse in Argentina because in Argentina nobody complies basically if all the Argentines living abroad they would never pay something like that.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: It was just like no way.
50:49
SPEAKER_05: So because I mean they can't they can't even enforce tax laws inside Argentina so forget about outside of Argentina.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah so I I think it's really a non-issue from like an American mindset where they sort of portray the power of their government on other countries and I mean not even France would be able to do something like this you know let alone Argentina and you know if if a small country decides like Eritrea I think they did that out of pure despair because they they needed money and they decided to pass that law in the end like you know they couldn't even collect.
51:25
SPEAKER_05: So and that was a 3% tax.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah right so yeah no I I don't think that's gonna be an issue I I think you know other stuff would be more important like how if Millet you know becomes uh goes for a second term could it be possible that with an Argentine passport at some point they decide to leave the medical sewer or something like that.
51:50
SPEAKER_01: You know I don't think that's gonna happen at all but you know those are more important things to think about I think than citizenship based taxation.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:59
SPEAKER_01: With regards to can you get rid of the citizenship so I asked the second opinion another lawyer because I had one lawyer say and I wrote about this on my blog as well that and he said like look it's no issue well but he's always like kind of you know that's that's just his uh modus operandi is like no nothing is an issue so he sent me some cases back then of citizenship that was uh taken away but those cases were actually well one was that the guy actually wanted to become an Argentine and the other one was that it was a Dominican who was stripped of his citizenship for crimes against the patria which is basically you know if you commit a serious enough crimes they can take away your Argentine citizenship and deport you but in all other cases I have not yet seen a case because that lawyer said like you can basically start a lawsuit against the state and it's a long process but then you can eventually get rid of the citizenship.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: The other lawyer said that you know really it it is you you cannot get rid of it basically so I'm I'm more inclined to stick with that assumption that you know once you get it you don't you can't get rid of it but it's that's also you know not an issue it could actually be work in your favor when you get another citizenship for example in the Netherlands that is something they they did flex about because that used to be very unflexible but for example Maxima uh Queen Maxima of the Netherlands when she became a Dutch citizen they wanted to get rid of her Argentine nationality but since that wasn't possible they had to leave it so actually I think it's actually a positive I think there's a couple more countries not 100% sure but I think Morocco and Turkey also have something where it's very hard to get rid of it and I think it's actually it works in your favor for getting other citizenships.
53:53
SPEAKER_05: Yeah I guess unless unless there's like I mean imagine Russians right now are having a lot of trouble right just for being Russians.
54:01
SPEAKER_05: Yeah they're excluded from a variety of investment migration programs or excluded from banking from doing business etc but if they say look I want to renounce but I can't right maybe maybe that is something that could work in their favor yeah yeah Patrick McFawn from Vexillum Global wants to know what the processing times are for naturalization in Argentina the processing times right now is you know start it a year early just in case it you know it can take up to at least six months and in some cases longer depending on the province that you do it in.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: So one way to speed it up is to not do it in capital so not in in Buenos Aires in the capital but in the provincia de Buenos Aires so in the province which is another jurisdiction.
54:56
SPEAKER_01: So you just have to resume you have to apply where you are empadronado yes yeah so it's based on you know your official address so it can be beneficial just to cross the border here it's it's you know only one highway and then you're in the province of Buenos Aires to get it get an address there have it you know verified and then you can basically do it there because the thing is there there's so such a big influx of Russians and Ukrainians but mainly Russians who are applying right now that and there's only eight judges in in the capital who are completely flooded with applications.
55:40
SPEAKER_01: So yeah if you want to do it faster that's a good bet to uh just do it in another province.
55:46
SPEAKER_05: But you say you you should start a year early you mean can you file your application before you're actually eligible?
55:53
SPEAKER_05: Because you have to wait two years until you're eligible.
55:55
SPEAKER_05: Yeah but you can already start the process uh at least uh six months before that you know and gather the documents and proof etc and then like ask for a turno all that can take some time now once you filed your application do you need to stay in Argentina while you wait for adjudication yeah I would I mean I I would if it's not a problem I would but I don't think it's a requirement actually to yeah I think you can travel in between another Twitter user Archer Bullseye wants to know if you think that Argentina is going to remain stable long enough to get past the initial shock therapy of Malay and start a new cycle of growth like can can Malay bridge that gap you think I really hope so I mean that's that's what everybody's looking at now.
56:46
SPEAKER_01: I think the next six months are going to be crucial to see if he actually pulls it off or not and you know patience is going to run thin because you know I don't see salaries improving that much inflation might pick up a little bit again in the second half of the year just because there's all kinds of things that just have their periodical increase.
57:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:07
SPEAKER_01: So and uh there's a lot a ton of debt in terms of uh maturity payments etc that uh complicate reserves so yeah it it's gonna be a a tough couple of uh months that's for sure I really hope he pulls it off because you know once that once we're through this year I think it's it's gonna be a lot better and and you know not maybe not smooth sailing but people are going to see the benefits of all this austerity and and these adjustments that Millet is is making because right now you know it's it's insane to think that his popularity has grown but the people and belong the people that are suffering it the most so I mean the the people on the you know lower half of society they are really really feeling the pain right now but they still decide like yes this is the only way to get out of this mess.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: So you know we're prepared to pull through a few more months and then we'll see the benefits.
58:07
SPEAKER_05: Wow that's a that's incredible yeah but but even their patience is going to wear thin if it drags on for too long without results right yeah definitely so yeah I think it's it's gonna be crucial to to see at least some light at the end of the tunnel in the next couple months what are the what are the tangible positive results that are already now after I mean because it he tore the band-aid right off in the beginning it was a very deep systemic very deep systemic measures he took right away that's leading to short-term pain but what are what are the first kind of signs of light at the end of the tunnel already?
58:47
SPEAKER_01: So inflation has come come way down month over month inflation and it's kind of tricky because on Twitter you see a lot of things like oh yeah but almost 300% inflation but yes that's year over year of course that is very high still because you started with 25 month over month so it's very easy to get to uh triple digits but right now we're at you know 5% month over month so I do think that's going to go go down more and then the second derivative is declining.
59:16
SPEAKER_01: So the the growth of the growth is declining yeah yes exactly so prices are still going up but you know less quickly and I think at some point we might even have deflation in a couple months you can already see that with some prices where and that's I think not so much the monetary policy but more the recession is just like you know some products are just not sold so they're they decide to you know sell them at a way lower price and that's something that we're seeing.
59:46
SPEAKER_01: But if you look at activity it's like obliterated it's very very bad.
59:50
SPEAKER_01: So the recession is is very much a thing.
59:56
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