Latest / Founder Talk with Alex Sheridan / SEO Expert on How to Get Found on Google and AI Search

Transcript

SEO Expert on How to Get Found on Google and AI Search · Founder Talk with Alex Sheridan

• 0:00
  Well, Mark Beeland, founder of Search Lab, welcome to Founder
• 0:02
  Talk podcast man. Cheers.
• 0:04
  Cheers. Nice to have.
• 0:05
  You on? Yeah, yeah.
• 0:06
  I'm excited to have this conversation.
• 0:08
  Likewise, I think every business since the history of time has
• 0:12
  wanted to be discovered. They've wanted to be found.
• 0:15
  And now especially now more than ever online and essentially
• 0:19
  that's what you help clients do is how do you get discovered?
• 0:22
  How do you get found when people are going to search, whether
• 0:25
  that be Google or now ChatGPT, of course, and other AI
• 0:29
  platforms. How does your business show up
• 0:32
  in that amongst other things that you guys obviously do.
• 0:35
  But I'd love to just start with the basics for for founders,
• 0:38
  entrepreneurs listening to the show, how does SEO really work
• 0:42
  and SEO obviously be in search engine optimization.
• 0:45
  So how does your business get discovered?
• 0:47
  Sure. So thank you again for having me
• 0:50
  on. I'm, I'm excited to be here.
• 0:52
  And yeah, I've been, I've, I've watched this journey the whole
• 0:55
  way through. So I started in 2007 at a
• 1:00
  company called Local Launch. At that time, the place to be
• 1:03
  found was like the Yellow Pages. Different times.
• 1:06
  Our, our company got bought by the Yellow Pages.
• 1:09
  RH Donnelly, who makes the Yellow Pages.
• 1:11
  And I really remember having these conversations with people
• 1:15
  where they would go. Yeah, maybe I don't know about
• 1:17
  this Google thing. The yellow page has been around
• 1:18
  for 60 years. That's where you get discovered.
• 1:20
  And then I've just kind of ridden that wave of watching
• 1:24
  people move dollars from print to digital over time.
• 1:28
  And it's been a great time. And now there's a lot of
• 1:31
  volatility in search. And so it's it's a it's a, it's
• 1:35
  a good question you ask. And how does it work for a
• 1:37
  business owner? It should be, I should say,
• 1:40
  first of all, I'm a specific type of an SEO.
• 1:42
  And so I'm a local SEO, which means doesn't mean I only serve
• 1:47
  businesses in Chicago. That's a common misconception.
• 1:49
  Means I serve businesses that have a brick and mortar location
• 1:54
  or serve a specific geographic area.
• 1:55
  I think of the credits. Local customers coming in.
• 1:58
  Correct. And so really what that has to
• 1:59
  do is the extent that people know about SEO, they know
• 2:02
  there's this algorithm that we're all interested in.
• 2:04
  It's more accurate to say there's algorithms, and I'm an
• 2:08
  expert in one of those algorithms, which is the local
• 2:10
  algorithm. And so when Google determines
• 2:12
  you have local intent, they'll run that search through a local
• 2:15
  algorithm and you can usually tell that it it, it, it is
• 2:19
  happening. If you see one of those map
• 2:21
  grids with three listings under it, that's usually a telltale
• 2:24
  sign. So I'll answer your question.
• 2:27
  The easiest way to appear on Google is to just pay for it.
• 2:30
  You can pay Google. You can set up ads.
• 2:33
  They've made it very easy. Is that just where you show up
• 2:35
  at the top of the Google search? It's like the promotion, you
• 2:37
  know, you get 3 promotion things, Yeah.
• 2:39
  Exactly. So you can, you can very easily,
• 2:42
  as long as you have a website. You know, I don't even think you
• 2:44
  need a website. You can do tactical ads now, you
• 2:47
  can appear in the sponsored section and there's an art and a
• 2:52
  science to all of that. And what we do for clients is we
• 2:56
  try and make sure that we're good stewards of those
• 2:58
  advertising dollars. So because they work with us,
• 3:01
  they make a much better ROI on those ads than they would if
• 3:04
  they had just tried to do it in house or left to their own
• 3:08
  devices. And truthfully, the way that
• 3:10
  Google has worked now and I've watched this over the course of
• 3:13
  my career, they will automate and, and do a lot of things for
• 3:17
  you, but in a way that makes Google money and so.
• 3:21
  They LinkedIn does the same thing with their ads, like
• 3:23
  optimize this and get shown this and I can increase your button
• 3:25
  and I'm like, yeah, it's, it's going to be worse results.
• 3:27
  I'm going to pay more. It's the same thing.
• 3:29
  So a lot of a lot of our job is just to be advocates for our
• 3:33
  clients and make sure they're not spending good money after
• 3:35
  bad, right? And so there's, there's a bunch
• 3:38
  of boring details of how you set up campaigns and ad groups and
• 3:41
  keywords and, and ads, But it, there's a methodology to all
• 3:44
  that. So that's one way you can, you
• 3:46
  can appear. The other way is that you can
• 3:48
  appear in the organic or, or in the in the local section.
• 3:51
  So the first thing that I would say if you do have a brick and
• 3:54
  mortar business or any sort of a location, the easiest, probably
• 3:59
  lowest hanging fruit is to set up a Google Business profile if
• 4:03
  you haven't already, or to optimize your Google business
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  profile. And that will allow you to
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  appear not just in Google search, but also anytime if, if
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  somebody's looking for a map. So if they're using Google Maps
• 4:14
  to find your location. So if you're a restaurant or if
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  you're a car dealership or if you're a auto repair, having
• 4:21
  that fully optimized and set up is really important.
• 4:25
  And I could get really, our team gets really nerdy about Google
• 4:29
  business profiles. And so there are specific things
• 4:32
  for, we work with a lot of car dealerships and specific things
• 4:35
  for car dealerships, specific things for hotels, for example,
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  medical professionals, all that. So, so that's a really low
• 4:44
  hanging fruit. The other area is organic
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  search, which is going to be a combination of you're on page,
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  you know, like what's actually on your website, what's off
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  page, which has a lot to do with links and signals off the
• 4:57
  website. So a link is a third party
• 4:59
  linking, sending a back link back to your website.
• 5:02
  It's kind of like a vote for your website and and then
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  technical. So like, are you findable?
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  Could have you have you set up your website in a way that
• 5:10
  Google can crawl it easily index it and get you in there?
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  So. So a lot to I appreciate that
• 5:15
  explanation. I think it gives us a good like
• 5:17
  high level overview of, of what these different terms are
• 5:20
  because you live it every day and you know, I'm in marketing,
• 5:22
  so I get it. But for people that don't live
• 5:24
  this every day, they're like, what the hell is this and how
• 5:26
  does it work and which? And we're going to get into AI
• 5:29
  search here in a little bit too. I definitely want to talk about
• 5:31
  that and your journey as a founder too.
• 5:33
  Let me circle back to the, the, the Google trying to convince
• 5:36
  somebody to, you know, put their business on Google and kind of
• 5:39
  promote that way and be discoverable what you say back
• 5:41
  in 2007. That's when I started.
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  It's an interesting, it's always interesting to me when you're
• 5:46
  kind of one of the, the leaders in a certain category and
• 5:49
  whether that was like early AI, early social media, early search
• 5:53
  crypto right now. Still, it's like people just
• 5:56
  kind of like dismiss it and they almost don't want it to happen.
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  Or they're, they're naive. You know, they're skeptical
• 6:02
  about it until it gets to a point where they realize, oh
• 6:05
  shit, there's mass adoption. And I if I don't get on this
• 6:08
  train now, like I probably may not have a business.
• 6:11
  What was that? What were those conversations
• 6:13
  like back in 22,007? Surreal.
• 6:16
  You have to remember what was going on in the country to it
• 6:19
  this time. So yeah, this is a Great
• 6:21
  Recession. Yeah.
• 6:22
  And so I started my first company in February 2009.
• 6:25
  And you can look at the Dow Jones industrial Average and I
• 6:28
  think it, it bottoms out February 2009.
• 6:31
  So just a ton of, there's this huge changing landscape.
• 6:37
  There was a lot of, to your point, resistance to that
• 6:40
  change. And I mean, our, our sales
• 6:43
  strategy was let's get a Yellow Pages, see who has the biggest
• 6:46
  ad and call them until we can have a meeting with them.
• 6:49
  That was really it. I mean, I, I did this over and
• 6:52
  over again. I can't tell you how many, how
• 6:54
  many weird conversations I would have where people would be like,
• 6:58
  yeah, they should cut tribunes not going anywhere.
• 7:01
  Google, Google could be gone tomorrow, you know, man.
• 7:05
  And were they wrong? Yeah.
• 7:07
  And so you're right. The, the the benefit was I could
• 7:10
  see because I was it's your I'm doing this 8 hours a day.
• 7:13
  I could see people and I'm like, they're making a lot of money
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  from at that point, clicks were so cheap.
• 7:19
  Oh yeah. And so I.
• 7:21
  Don't I was trying to think I don't remember like really even
• 7:23
  using Google in 2007. I mean it was there, but like
• 7:27
  maybe I just wasn't like it was. It was so new at that point that
• 7:30
  I don't even remember going to my phone and like Googling
• 7:32
  stuff. I don't think I remember that
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  till like maybe twenty 10s or something like that.
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  I don't know for me. Yeah, it was, it was early.
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  It was, it was. I caught the wave like it was.
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  It was just getting started and so that what that tells you is
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  it's it's sort of like an auction system, not exactly
• 7:47
  there. There's the differences between
• 7:49
  an auction and how Google works, but it's sort of like an auction
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  system where if there aren't that many people in the auction,
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  the price is really low. So the.
• 7:57
  Bidding for certain words and things like that.
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  The cost per click was, you know, today a personal injury
• 8:05
  attorney can spend like $200 a click.
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  I mean, it could be a lot of money.
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  In those days it was like $8 clicks or $5 clicks or something
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  like that. And so you get, you get huge
• 8:15
  cases for very, very little money.
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  So did you see certain clients then like who, who are like,
• 8:20
  yes, let's do I believe in it because I think it takes the
• 8:24
  leader, owner, whoever's in charge, it takes them to have a
• 8:26
  vision of and forward thinking of where things are going and
• 8:29
  for them to look at. Look, even though Yellow Pages
• 8:32
  and the Chicago Tribune or wherever else might work today,
• 8:35
  this Internet thing I think is going to be big and we should in
• 8:38
  minimum start doing it a little bit or like start understanding
• 8:42
  what it is. Hire somebody to help us.
• 8:44
  Did you, the people that were starting to do that with you
• 8:46
  guys, were they pretty blown away by some of the results that
• 8:49
  they were getting? Yeah, in early in early days, in
• 8:52
  a lot of times they take credit for they be proud of themselves
• 8:56
  for, you know, having seen these trends like you're talking
• 8:58
  about. The other thing I really the,
• 9:03
  the light bulb moment for me was all the data that we had.
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  So I, I remember thinking, I don't know how somebody who
• 9:11
  sells billboard space could, could do it.
• 9:14
  No data. Yeah.
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  I just thought it was so strange.
• 9:17
  Phone books, at least that that phone number you're calling,
• 9:19
  they can track how many times that phone number was called.
• 9:21
  But the, you know, a bunch of a bunch of different marketing.
• 9:25
  I was like, I don't know how they do it because for better or
• 9:28
  for worse, I'm Naked to the results a lot and it's
• 9:32
  performance marketing. And if the performance isn't
• 9:34
  good, I can't hide from the data.
• 9:37
  And so early on I saw that and I was like, this is this is not
• 9:42
  going to change. And candidly you have less
• 9:45
  information today than you had. I don't know, like probably like
• 9:49
  the mid 2000 tens was kind of the peak of being able to really
• 9:53
  get great data. And then, you know, a bunch of
• 9:57
  scandals happened, a bunch of regulation happened and a lot of
• 10:01
  a lot of that data is more constrained.
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  But still today I think in digital we can show an ROI
• 10:07
  better than most other channels. Yeah.
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  And it's like. About TV ads and stuff like
• 10:13
  that, it's like, how do you track that?
• 10:14
  I mean, unless someone tells you that they saw you on TV, but it
• 10:18
  just seems like I'd rather put my money somewhere where you can
• 10:21
  really see kind of every single metric.
• 10:23
  Yeah, I mean, I, you know, when I first moved to Chicago, where
• 10:27
  you from? I'm from Detroit.
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  And so when I first moved to Chicago, I interviewed to sell
• 10:33
  radio ads and I thought. That wasn't.
• 10:35
  I remember when I was a kid, that was a big thing.
• 10:38
  Good money, too. Yeah.
• 10:38
  Good job. Yeah.
• 10:39
  And so I was like, this is this is what I'll do.
• 10:43
  Yeah, I'm glad I didn't get that job because it was it was really
• 10:46
  a again, I don't know how you I. Don't know how they make money
• 10:49
  today if they're still doing it. You got podcasts you got.
• 10:51
  I mean, it's just like. That pond has shrunk so much.
• 10:54
  And yeah, so it's it. I I gotta this is this is the
• 10:59
  you're getting a sense of like the world I came up in you.
• 11:01
  Know that's good, yeah. That it was, it was this real
• 11:04
  changing landscape from these more traditional forms of media
• 11:09
  and dollars were moving. Yeah.
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  I just, I started companies that were in.
• 11:13
  I sort of skated to where the puck was going.
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  It reminds me of, so I got serious about Lincoln in 2019,
• 11:19
  early 2020. And it was before everyone kind
• 11:21
  of realized LinkedIn was like the greatest platform to be on
• 11:23
  for B to B at least. And I just remember people not
• 11:27
  literally not like very smart executives not understanding why
• 11:30
  would we post videos on LinkedIn And we're going to look like
• 11:35
  what? Like I know it all or like, why
• 11:36
  the hell would we ever waste our time doing that?
• 11:39
  And I was like, no, no, no, it's not about you.
• 11:41
  It's about providing value to your audience and having and
• 11:45
  having you become the most trusted source in your industry
• 11:47
  and building credibility and helping them solve real world
• 11:49
  problems. And then when they're ready to
• 11:51
  buy, they come to you because they know, like and trust you.
• 11:54
  That was like such a foreign concept.
• 11:56
  I was working a full time job and doing this marketing gig on
• 11:59
  the side at the time in 20 in 2019, early 2020.
• 12:03
  And like nobody I worked with understood.
• 12:05
  They're like, why are you doing these videos and shit?
• 12:06
  And they didn't even think I was making money.
• 12:08
  And all of a sudden one day I was like, hey guys, I'm putting
• 12:10
  my two weeks notice. Like I'm making more doing this
• 12:11
  than I am my corporate job. And they were like what?
• 12:14
  It's just any you kind of see the same thing with crypto.
• 12:17
  I don't know if you're into crypto or not, but it's similar
• 12:21
  now where it's like people are just like, it's funny money.
• 12:23
  It's weird. It's but meanwhile behind the
• 12:25
  scenes, the Wall Street is going to be tokenized and everything's
• 12:29
  going on the blockchain and like the Bitcoin reserves and you got
• 12:32
  all this like it's it's really weird to be early.
• 12:36
  The question I have for you is, did you sometimes doubt it?
• 12:39
  Did you sometimes think from getting all the reject, you
• 12:41
  know, rejection thing and saying is this Google thing kind of
• 12:44
  crazy? Like is it?
• 12:45
  Am I crazy for going this far into this?
• 12:48
  Well, no, I didn't. And I, I can give you a sense
• 12:52
  why I'm, I, I am from Detroit. So like, I deep down, that's my,
• 12:58
  you know, like my culture and what?
• 13:01
  Brought you out here. I'm curious.
• 13:02
  Well. Job job.
• 13:04
  Like basically my my now wife was beat me out here by a year,
• 13:07
  but a bunch of my friends had already from college already
• 13:09
  moved out here. There's a big Detroit diaspora.
• 13:11
  I like people. If you, if you went to college
• 13:15
  or had opportunity, a lot of people left.
• 13:19
  And so I was, I just remember being in Detroit, like
• 13:21
  everything felt like it was shrinking and it was, you know,
• 13:24
  my, it's a, you know, 11 trick pony town.
• 13:28
  The car dealerships, I'm not the car dealerships, the car
• 13:31
  companies run everything. And my, my dad didn't work for
• 13:34
  the car companies, but by far, by far his biggest client was
• 13:36
  General Motors. And so their tentacles did
• 13:39
  everything. And it just felt like I was in a
• 13:40
  place that was, you know, that was shrinking, that wasn't
• 13:43
  advancing, that wasn't, you know, it was, it wasn't going
• 13:46
  the right place. So, you know, I moved to
• 13:48
  Chicago. But more than anything, I got
• 13:51
  into this industry and it was growing.
• 13:53
  And I could just, you could feel the groundswell of momentum and,
• 13:59
  and, and candidly, just like finances were moving in this
• 14:02
  direction. And even as the economy in the
• 14:05
  United States was terrible, people were moving like this was
• 14:10
  a good, good place to be. And you?
• 14:13
  Can feel it too. When you're on to something
• 14:14
  early. You're like, oh man, I I struck
• 14:17
  gold here. Like this is going to be big.
• 14:18
  Yeah, so it was, it was more intuition than anything.
• 14:21
  It was like I, I knew what it felt like to be in a place where
• 14:23
  I was like, man, it's, it sucks here.
• 14:27
  And I knew where I knew how this felt.
• 14:29
  And I went, I'm like this, this feels like a, this feels like a
• 14:32
  good place to be. And then you Fast forward the
• 14:35
  tape. Now it's 2025 when we're filming
• 14:37
  this end of 2025, and you know, everyone's all interested in AI.
• 14:43
  So it's like now, this is the first time in my career where
• 14:46
  there's been a viable alternative to search.
• 14:48
  That's a good point. The first big disruption and
• 14:51
  we're going to talk about that here in a bit too.
• 14:53
  Let me go back to the the some of the tactical stuff.
• 14:56
  So because I was talking with a client the other day and unless
• 14:58
  you like, if you're a lawyer, insurance broker or something
• 15:02
  like that, you've got a Google review.
• 15:04
  And I had a client that had a three-point O out of five, which
• 15:08
  obviously is not good. I think you need to be in four
• 15:10
  plus to be like considered even an option.
• 15:13
  That's why I thought at least how important are Google, How
• 15:17
  important are Google reviews? And what do you do if you got a
• 15:20
  bad review or you got a lower score and you want to get that
• 15:22
  up to a four or five? Yeah, it's a, that's a good
• 15:25
  question. I think reviews are very
• 15:29
  important and the sentiment of your, your customers is very
• 15:32
  important, not just for ranking. You can't outrank a bad
• 15:37
  reputation. So even if, even if you do a
• 15:39
  really great SEO and you, you know you're popping up all the
• 15:42
  time, if you're the sentiment is not good, people are just not
• 15:47
  going to click on your website, even if I put you in the best
• 15:50
  real estate in Google. So in Amazon too, I mean, if
• 15:53
  you, you know, I mean, if you're shopping and you see a 3.5,
• 15:56
  three .23 point O, you're almost automatically off that thing,
• 16:00
  right? That's my my friend Blake
• 16:02
  Denman, who's another agency owner, always says you can't
• 16:04
  outrank a shitty reputation. It just doesn't matter.
• 16:07
  And so I we've done studies. I I would, I would put your
• 16:11
  audience to our COO Greg Gifford has a weekly video series called
• 16:15
  Local Search Tuesdays. I've seen that.
• 16:16
  Yeah. And he will.
• 16:18
  He'll put weekly tips on there. Sometimes he'll put his
• 16:21
  conference presentations, but he's done a lot of studies on
• 16:25
  this kind of stuff. And one of the things that was
• 16:26
  interesting is a there's there's critical mass here.
• 16:30
  If you only have 5 reviews, whatever.
• 16:32
  But if you're a restaurant, you're going to get a lot, a lot
• 16:34
  of reviews. People are actually really warm
• 16:37
  to like a 4.6 review. So weirdly 5 star people is
• 16:44
  exactly 5 star people will start to go.
• 16:46
  Are you gaming this? Like is there some sort of?
• 16:48
  Totally. That's so.
• 16:49
  I do the same thing on Amazon. I'm like 5.
• 16:51
  Like that's something they have all their friends.
• 16:53
  Yeah, it's a weird psychology. So actually it's sort of like
• 16:56
  4.74 point 8 is a really good is a really good rating.
• 17:01
  The way to do it is I think there's there's three ways that
• 17:05
  I would recommend people get reviews.
• 17:07
  There's one which is you could just ask, they call it personal
• 17:11
  ask. It's the most effective.
• 17:14
  It doesn't scale well. You can do marketing collateral
• 17:19
  so you can actually have the the you know, you've, you've gone to
• 17:24
  a restaurant, you can see the placards that say, you know,
• 17:27
  review us here. Make it really easy with AQR
• 17:29
  code. And why would I have a receipt?
• 17:31
  And give them an A free appetizer, a half off an
• 17:33
  appetizer or something that they'll come back and they're
• 17:35
  going to review it. That's like a no brainer to me.
• 17:37
  Yeah. So enough places to do that.
• 17:39
  Yeah. So just leaving it, it's, it
• 17:40
  scales super well. Yeah, you know, and it's easy.
• 17:44
  And so you can do that. And the third thing is you can
• 17:47
  you can involve some technology into this.
• 17:48
  So you can actually go through your customer list and and ask
• 17:52
  them to leave you a review. And so that that can go well,
• 17:56
  there are some of these that are they call it like review gating.
• 18:00
  There's there's some some protocols you should follow here
• 18:03
  before you before you do it, but there's a lot of that.
• 18:06
  So those are those are the three ways to that I recommend to our
• 18:10
  clients to generate reviews. The personal ask is the one that
• 18:13
  I find to be the best, like just ask, ask people for, for a
• 18:16
  review. What do you do though, if you
• 18:18
  have a bad review? For one thing, people really
• 18:22
  freak out. It, it becomes an emotional
• 18:24
  thing for our customers when they get a bad, they get a bad
• 18:27
  review. So the first thing is take a
• 18:28
  beat. It's, it's, it's fine.
• 18:32
  After a while, you're going to get a bad review.
• 18:34
  And remember, 4.64 point 7, that's the zone we're looking
• 18:36
  at. The next thing is try to get
• 18:39
  more reviews. So use one of those 3 methods
• 18:42
  that I talked about are all three try and get more reviews
• 18:44
  to just water down the bad review.
• 18:47
  And what I would really recommend, and that's what I
• 18:51
  always tell people is read the review and in fact, read the
• 18:54
  reviews that are negative. See if there's any sort of
• 18:57
  pattern detection that you can look at.
• 18:59
  This could be the best thing for you to help your business.
• 19:03
  And, and the last thing is you should respond to the review,
• 19:06
  not for the reviewer, but for people who will come later and
• 19:11
  read that review. That's smart.
• 19:12
  So I, we, we, we will either on behalf of our clients or
• 19:16
  recommend to them that they respond to every review.
• 19:20
  And in some instances that's a lot of reviews.
• 19:24
  The reason is if there's a, if there's a bad review, people,
• 19:30
  people will read it and see how you handle it.
• 19:31
  So if you go, you're an asshole, like why'd you leave me a
• 19:34
  review? And like, that's part of your
• 19:36
  review. They're not going to.
• 19:37
  That's not a good idea. If you go, sorry I had a bad
• 19:39
  experience, I'd love to talk to you about how we could fix this.
• 19:43
  You know, all feedback is a gift and we're committed to making
• 19:47
  sure our guests have a better experience moving forward.
• 19:50
  Thank you. Then you have a much better
• 19:52
  chance of getting some grace from the next customer who reads
• 19:55
  that review. That makes total sense to me,
• 19:58
  like and I think that's just like the right thing to do to
• 20:01
  from a customer standpoint, you know, it's just take care of
• 20:04
  your people. If someone left you a bad review
• 20:06
  to your point, there might be something to it might be some
• 20:08
  feedback there that even though it stings, you might go, yeah,
• 20:11
  we probably could get a little better at that.
• 20:13
  Maybe maybe we did drop the ball there.
• 20:15
  And then I think you reach out and you.
• 20:16
  Yeah, and you respond to it because other people are going
• 20:19
  to see it, but also. You know it's an opportunity to
• 20:22
  connect with that person, see if maybe you can rebuild a
• 20:24
  relationship. There's a we've had plenty of
• 20:26
  times where we've had a bad review, either the customer or
• 20:31
  us have reached out to that person.
• 20:33
  Usually you have their information.
• 20:34
  Yeah, like could, could, maybe you don't.
• 20:37
  But if if you can just pick up the old phone and call that and
• 20:42
  you're really control, you go yeah, I, I don't want anybody to
• 20:45
  have a bad experience. This is terrible.
• 20:47
  How can? Yeah.
• 20:49
  How can I make this right? There's a chance that that
• 20:51
  person will take that review down.
• 20:52
  Yeah, I think that would like absolutely floor people if you
• 20:55
  did that, like in a good way, I think they'd go holy shit, I
• 20:58
  just got a call. Remember that restaurant went to
• 21:00
  and we had a bad experience. I just got a call from the owner
• 21:03
  sometimes that it's like scale the unscalable.
• 21:06
  Sometimes, you know, like sometimes you got to do the
• 21:08
  things that don't like necessarily scale perfectly, but
• 21:11
  it just makes a big difference. Yeah.
• 21:13
  And a lot of a lot of this stuff with reviews, I'm just like
• 21:16
  telling you a bunch of things that are just basic blocking and
• 21:20
  tackling of running a company, customer obsession, admitting
• 21:26
  fault when you're wrong, taking accountability, genuinely
• 21:29
  learning from your mistakes to make sure they don't happen
• 21:31
  again. All that stuff is important in
• 21:35
  any facet of a business. It just so happens that we're
• 21:37
  really experts in this review part of it.
• 21:39
  But if you, if you're, if you're a, if you take those lessons and
• 21:43
  apply them to other parts of your business, you'll be doing
• 21:45
  well too. Customers obsession is my big
• 21:48
  talking point in my company, like we have to obsess about our
• 21:51
  customers. Customer centeredness are they
• 21:53
  keep the customer in the centre of everything that we're doing.
• 21:55
  A review is just a a way to to do that.
• 22:00
  Yeah, so I used to Google pretty much everything when I needed an
• 22:05
  answer. You know, it's like Google, you
• 22:07
  Google it, you type it in there, you get an answer.
• 22:10
  And now I'd say about 90% of my searches or inquiries are Jachi
• 22:14
  PT. So it's, it's shifted from
• 22:16
  Google to AII think a lot of people have made that shift to
• 22:19
  some degree, some more than others, some less than others.
• 22:22
  How does AI search really work compared to even traditional
• 22:25
  SEO? Well, it's different, and it's
• 22:28
  different in a lot of ways. So here's Google has evolved a
• 22:36
  lot over the years. So I'm dumbing things down and
• 22:39
  there are SER experts who may listen to this and go he's got
• 22:41
  it all wrong. But I'm I'm not for them.
• 22:43
  I'm simplifying it for a reason. So there is some predictability.
• 22:47
  If I search for a car dealer near me from here, you do that
• 22:52
  same search, chances are we're going to have this a very
• 22:55
  similar search engine results page.
• 22:59
  That's not how ChatGPT works. ChatGPT, if I look for first of
• 23:03
  all, they struggle with local. But if we did the exact same
• 23:06
  prompt, I mean word for word because of my past history and
• 23:09
  because of your past history using it, we'll get, we could
• 23:12
  get vastly different responses. I personally could do the same
• 23:17
  prompt four times and get 4 different answers.
• 23:22
  It's probabilistic. It's not predictable the way
• 23:24
  that search is, and so it's very hard in that world to say, do
• 23:31
  tracking or do create tools that could be.
• 23:34
  How often is your brand being mentioned on an LLM?
• 23:38
  It's probably wasn't. It's very much individualized
• 23:40
  for each person. The other part of it is we're
• 23:45
  finding that like that people use Chechi BT for things that
• 23:49
  they used to use search for, and they use it for things they
• 23:52
  never use search. For 100%.
• 23:54
  It's, it's a, it's not, it's not one of the same.
• 23:58
  And the last thing I would tell you is Google themselves are
• 24:01
  using AI. So even if you go to Google
• 24:04
  search right now, they call these like AI overviews are
• 24:07
  taking over a lot of the informational searches.
• 24:09
  So what Google's interested in and I think where we're seeing
• 24:15
  this is kind of their fortress is all the transactional
• 24:18
  searches. So still today they struggle
• 24:21
  with local, which could change very quickly.
• 24:24
  Where I'll give you, I'll give you like an example.
• 24:26
  I wanted an itinerary for an off site we were having in Boston.
• 24:31
  I wanted to meet at a Dunkin' Donuts near the aquarium and
• 24:36
  there's a Dunkin' Donuts everywhere in Boston.
• 24:38
  So I figured and they gave. And everywhere and everywhere.
• 24:40
  They they gave an address like Chichi BT gave me this great
• 24:44
  itinerary, give me an address for a Dunkin' Donuts.
• 24:46
  It was close to the aquarium. When I walked to that address,
• 24:50
  it was not a Dunkin' Donuts, you know what I mean?
• 24:52
  So it's just it does struggle with it with local right now.
• 24:55
  It's funny you say that because I actually, if I'm doing a local
• 24:57
  search, I actually really trust Google and I'll go straight to
• 25:00
  Google for something local like I'm finding, you know, movers or
• 25:03
  something like that, or a local coffee shop.
• 25:05
  I just trust Google and I can look at the map, but it's just
• 25:07
  more clean cut for local, but ChatGPT for more conversational
• 25:11
  type things like I can't really have a conversation as much with
• 25:15
  Google. And I think that's what's
• 25:16
  changing the search is people are not no longer saying what's
• 25:18
  a good marketing consulting firm or SEO firm.
• 25:21
  They're saying, hey, I'm this kind of company.
• 25:23
  I'm got this going on in my background.
• 25:26
  Our products and services are tailored to this type of
• 25:27
  company. What would be a good search firm
• 25:29
  and give me the top three and give me the pricing for each
• 25:31
  ones and that kind of stuff? Yeah, like I have, I'm very late
• 25:35
  on this. It's December.
• 25:37
  I need to plan our annual retreat for my leadership team,
• 25:41
  which is in January. And so I was like, oh man, what
• 25:45
  a idiot. So I, yeah, I didn't go to
• 25:47
  Google. I went to GBT and I said, like,
• 25:50
  here's my budget. I'd like to be in Cancun or
• 25:53
  Tulum or something like that. And it's going to be a business
• 25:59
  function. I don't want a bunch of drunk
• 26:00
  college kids at it. Give me some options.
• 26:04
  Yeah. And that would have been
• 26:06
  something I would used to do in Google, that that job to be done
• 26:09
  is being done better with AI right now, which is interesting.
• 26:12
  But when it comes to the mechanics, like what's different
• 26:14
  about AI search versus traditional Google search, like
• 26:18
  what is it looking like? How does it come up differently
• 26:21
  if I searched on Chachibiti right now versus if I type it in
• 26:23
  Google? Is Google looking for keywords,
• 26:26
  backlinks, this and Chachibiti or AI is looking for something
• 26:30
  different? Yeah, I think the Google is
• 26:34
  going to crawl the World Wide Web.
• 26:36
  So they're going to look for every website on the World Wide
• 26:38
  Web and then they're going to put it into an index.
• 26:42
  Think of that as like a giant my documents, right?
• 26:45
  And that's why they can search so quickly.
• 26:47
  So when you do a search, they're not looking at the live World
• 26:49
  Wide Web. They're looking at a modest,
• 26:53
  like very slightly outdated version.
• 26:55
  So they're going to recrawl the New York Times and Chicago
• 26:57
  Tribune like regularly throughout the day.
• 27:00
  And so you do that search, it runs an algorithm, which is a
• 27:05
  math problem. And very quickly it can spit out
• 27:07
  results. That's why you, if you ever
• 27:09
  notice they say results in .26 seconds because early search
• 27:12
  engines, they used to, they used to go out and bring it back.
• 27:16
  And so you have kind of three main parts in a search engine.
• 27:19
  You have the like a spider or a bot that crawls the World Wide
• 27:23
  Web. You have an index where they
• 27:25
  store all that. That's your giant my documents.
• 27:26
  And then you have an algorithm. And those are, again, I'm really
• 27:30
  dumbing this down. Algorithms probably.
• 27:33
  And but that's the that's the basis of a search engine.
• 27:37
  And LLM works differently. It's going to be machine
• 27:40
  learning. It's going to be much more about
• 27:44
  probabilistic, like what's the next word that I should be
• 27:47
  putting in here? And it's going to learn.
• 27:50
  It has to, you know, learning is probably a a word that I'm not a
• 27:55
  machine learning expert, but it's going to learn based on
• 28:00
  other sources. It's going to have training
• 28:03
  models. So a lot of that comes from like
• 28:05
  Reddit is well known to be a very big training ground for cha
• 28:08
  chi BT right? So they're going to learn how do
• 28:11
  people on these websites write, converse talk and you know, Croc
• 28:19
  is going to be Twitter like they're going to watch it.
• 28:20
  They're going to train on Twitter a lot.
• 28:22
  And the one that should probably win, I would say would be
• 28:26
  Google, because they have the most data and they, they just, I
• 28:31
  heard Bill Ackman, who's an investor, talk about this and
• 28:33
  he's like, they Google came out and had a bunch of embarrassing
• 28:36
  PR disasters in AI when they first started.
• 28:39
  Yeah, yeah. People thought they were not
• 28:40
  going to be the leaders and they're actually kind of turning
• 28:42
  the page now and it looks like they might be.
• 28:44
  They just have too many things. First of all, it's much more
• 28:49
  expensive than people realize to to run this stuff.
• 28:53
  So it's not like software, it's really expensive.
• 28:56
  So there's a lot of CapEx. Google has a bottomless pit of
• 28:59
  money. They have more data than
• 29:02
  anybody. I mean, Twitter is a trading
• 29:06
  mail versus everything that Google has is just not a fair
• 29:09
  fight, right? So Google has your e-mail, it
• 29:12
  has everybody's e-mail. Like there's a #1 e-mail client
• 29:14
  out there, they have all the search history, they can crawl
• 29:17
  the World Wide Web better than everybody.
• 29:19
  They have this first mover advantage there.
• 29:21
  And so they should, I think over time begin to use that
• 29:25
  advantage. It's right now.
• 29:27
  Right now it just seems like Cha Chi BT has kind of gotten the
• 29:30
  brand. They are the Kleenex of AI right
• 29:33
  now or from. A consumer standpoint, yeah.
• 29:35
  They're the brand, but I, I watch Google very carefully, see
• 29:39
  how they're looking at this. I think they're trying to use
• 29:41
  there. There are sometimes where it's
• 29:42
  like, I don't think AI was the best way to do this and you're
• 29:46
  just kind of shoehorning it in. Yeah, that's how serious if.
• 29:49
  You're not, it's like you're not up to date on what's going on.
• 29:51
  You know, so much investors are like, where's the AI in your
• 29:54
  business like, and if you don't have it, you need to have some
• 29:56
  type of AI in your business now. But that's, that's, that's the
• 29:59
  long and short of it. It's like, I don't know that in
• 30:03
  particular like ChatGPT is is interested in 10 blue links,
• 30:06
  what we would talk about in search, like we're going to rank
• 30:09
  10 websites per page. Old school SEO.
• 30:13
  GGT is looking for the answer. That's the difference and that's
• 30:17
  why consumers I think really flock to it because it wasn't
• 30:21
  the promotional stuff. It wasn't what they wanted you
• 30:23
  to see or what someone paid to see.
• 30:24
  It was, wow, I got an open and honest answer.
• 30:27
  Sometimes. Sometimes it hallucinates,
• 30:29
  obviously. What?
• 30:30
  Why do you think, why do you think Google just didn't create
• 30:33
  a chachi petite of their own 1st and say, you know, it's kind of
• 30:37
  like, why didn't freaking Walmart build an Amazon?
• 30:40
  I think about that all the time. It's a it's a good question.
• 30:42
  There's a lot of layers to it. It kind of kills their old
• 30:46
  business model is the problem. But I don't see it that way.
• 30:49
  I see it as like, hey, this is going to happen anyways.
• 30:51
  If anyone's going to put you out of business, it should be you.
• 30:54
  And if you adapt and do the right things, you can stay in
• 30:56
  business and probably be even stronger.
• 30:58
  Yeah, and there's, I mean, there's plenty of search traffic
• 31:01
  right now too. So it's like, Oh yeah, there's
• 31:03
  not a, it's not like either you have LLMS or you have search
• 31:09
  these, these, it's an ecosystem. And I would say Google's a
• 31:14
  company I've been watching, I've been fascinated by for a long
• 31:17
  time. And I started, I started in
• 31:19
  2007. It used to be that they were
• 31:23
  this incredibly innovative company they would come out with
• 31:28
  to think about Google Maps. It's hard to, even for somebody
• 31:32
  who's listening to this, it seems like, oh, it's like
• 31:34
  they've always had Google Maps or whatever.
• 31:36
  That's an audacious thing to come up.
• 31:38
  With Oh yeah, I believe it was. Crazy like to to actually be
• 31:42
  able to put navigation details for the whole World Wide Web.
• 31:46
  They used to have the car drive around and every like get a
• 31:48
  picture of everything on the outside.
• 31:50
  That's a crazy, crazy innovation.
• 31:54
  When they really did that, they were leading with technology,
• 31:58
  they were leading with with their best foot forward.
• 32:02
  They did a whole. They basically just stole
• 32:04
  Microsoft Office. So they came out with a whole
• 32:06
  suite free. Yeah.
• 32:08
  Use Google Sheets. Use Google backs like.
• 32:10
  I like it better than Microsoft, but Microsoft annoys me but.
• 32:13
  They just went to, they just went and drank Microsoft's
• 32:15
  milkshake. They were.
• 32:17
  That's the company I watched early in my career.
• 32:20
  Yeah, innovative. They're going to come out with a
• 32:22
  phone. They're going to be a true
• 32:23
  competitor of the iPhone and something is different with the
• 32:28
  company today. It's not.
• 32:30
  It got so big. Well, that's all I was going to
• 32:32
  say. You're small, you're kind of
• 32:33
  fighting or innovating or disrupting.
• 32:35
  You get to you get to a certain point of size and stature that
• 32:38
  it's almost about how do we survive and not go out of
• 32:41
  business versus how do we thrive and push things to the next
• 32:44
  level. It could be about size, it could
• 32:45
  just be about culture too. They were very interested in
• 32:49
  engineers, just wanted engineers.
• 32:51
  And they wanted, they used strange words like googly and
• 32:55
  they did your 20% time to come up with stuff.
• 32:58
  So a bunch of really great innovations from Google came in
• 33:00
  this 20% time. Today it's much more of a
• 33:04
  there's a bunch more finance focused people there.
• 33:07
  They're interested in different things.
• 33:08
  They don't want to get, they don't want to get broken up as a
• 33:11
  monopoly. They don't want to have
• 33:13
  litigation or fines from they lobby.
• 33:16
  They're spending a lot of money on lobbyists and those come at a
• 33:19
  cost to innovation. And so I don't think it's, and
• 33:25
  that's not just to Google. I think a lot of these companies
• 33:27
  are just not as innovative anymore.
• 33:29
  When was the last great Apple innovation?
• 33:32
  You know, I, I don't think. But that's what I think, I think
• 33:34
  you get, I think not that you can't innovate at a bigger size,
• 33:37
  but I do think you get so big and you just got all these other
• 33:39
  problems and people and investors and now you're at a
• 33:42
  you're so you're the big dog. It's like, hey, we just we, we
• 33:44
  want to stay here. We're not necessarily saying how
• 33:47
  do we climb and get ahead and and be the number, we are the
• 33:49
  number one. We just don't want to get
• 33:51
  knocked off the mountain top. I think that's that's part of
• 33:54
  it. There's a book called
• 33:58
  Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton Christensen that talks a lot
• 34:00
  about what you're talking about, which is you're the entrenched,
• 34:05
  you know, behemoth in the market and you'll run well.
• 34:11
  You have good managers and they're telling you what you
• 34:14
  want to hear. Meanwhile, the disruptor is is
• 34:18
  not focused on any of that, right?
• 34:19
  And they're coming to just take your to take your lunch and you.
• 34:22
  Get a chip on your shoulder and they want to break, you know,
• 34:24
  breakthrough the noise and disrupt.
• 34:26
  And it's just a different, it's a cultural difference.
• 34:28
  It's just way different. Yeah, so I would say that's a
• 34:32
  big part of why Google didn't, didn't win the race, because I,
• 34:35
  I think the company's different. Yeah, Google in 2010, 1112 would
• 34:41
  be way ahead. I I just, that was a different
• 34:45
  time, different kind of leadership.
• 34:47
  They were so audacious. The things they would do were
• 34:49
  crazy. They didn't even make money on a
• 34:50
  lot of this stuff. They just thought it, they
• 34:53
  thought they had a ethos at any as long as the, the amount of
• 34:57
  people who are going to the World Wide Web went up, it was
• 34:59
  good for Google. And that was a, that was a
• 35:02
  great, I mean, Gmail, all these things were, were great.
• 35:05
  Adsense. So I think that's a big part of
• 35:08
  it. The other part of it is credit
• 35:11
  words too, you know, I think Chachi BT opening eye, they did
• 35:15
  a great job. They Oh, they definitely did.
• 35:17
  And, and now everyone's, everyone's chasing them and it's
• 35:21
  an it's an interesting race to watch.
• 35:23
  So if you're a business owner from a content standpoint, what
• 35:28
  type of content should you be putting on your, you said on
• 35:31
  page, off page? And does it vary between if you
• 35:34
  want, if you're maybe doing well on Google rankings, but you're
• 35:37
  not doing as well on AI search or AEO answer engine
• 35:40
  optimization, is there a difference in the type of
• 35:43
  content that you'd want to put out to rank for AI versus
• 35:46
  traditional search? Well, it's a good, it's a good
• 35:48
  timely question because we're doing a lot of studies right
• 35:51
  now. So I wish I, I'll, I'll send
• 35:55
  some links to you when these studies are done.
• 35:56
  But I, we have at search that we have an innovation like team
• 36:00
  that's working on this stuff. Well, what I will tell you is as
• 36:06
  strange as it sounds, as make good content.
• 36:08
  Yeah, I know. I always say that too.
• 36:11
  Focus on if you focus, focus on hacks, you'll have short term
• 36:17
  fits and starts. If you if you focus on who is
• 36:20
  your audience or who is your customer, who's your end, the
• 36:23
  end user of what you're doing and just make it really great.
• 36:28
  I think you'll have it may be harder, maybe slower, may take a
• 36:32
  little longer for your flywheel to get going, but in the long
• 36:35
  run, if you're making great content, it's much easier to
• 36:41
  pivot and move to where the eyeballs are.
• 36:44
  Sometimes I clearly understand the difference between AI search
• 36:47
  and Google, and then sometimes I'm like, it is sort of the same
• 36:49
  thing, just make really great content.
• 36:51
  I think some of the tactical things we've seen work in the
• 36:54
  maybe the differences between AI and search.
• 36:56
  I'd like to give your perspective here is it seems
• 36:59
  like the AI search engines, they're obviously looking for
• 37:02
  more conversational, how do you talk and how do you write and
• 37:05
  how do you present yourself and that kind of stuff so they can
• 37:06
  adapt the language. It does seem like more
• 37:09
  conversational content. I've also known the comparison
• 37:12
  content seems to be what AI really likes.
• 37:15
  Like we've seen increases in your search visibility on AI and
• 37:18
  Chachi Petite just from adding here are the top five blank
• 37:21
  companies in your industry or in the area because AI loves to,
• 37:26
  but maybe Google does too. I don't know.
• 37:27
  I mean it. Like, so listen, maybe that's a
• 37:29
  good point. It's like, what are some
• 37:30
  differences? Yeah.
• 37:32
  One difference that comes to mind is AI seems to really
• 37:37
  search like this too, but AI seems to really like new
• 37:40
  content, so freshness like not letting any of your content get
• 37:45
  old where and Google's. It was like make a great piece
• 37:49
  of pillow like a Evergreen content, Evergreen content and
• 37:53
  update it once per year and you'll be fine.
• 37:57
  It it seems that our our studies indicate that freshness seems to
• 38:02
  be really popular with with AI. Now where is that?
• 38:05
  Like a blog once a week? Is that LinkedIn?
• 38:08
  YouTube. Content, I, I would say you're
• 38:10
  on the right track. You're repetitive.
• 38:13
  The repetition of it is really important.
• 38:15
  So if you're in a, if you're a content creator, like a Blogger,
• 38:20
  let's not do that like once or twice a year, you know, have a
• 38:23
  have a rotation once a month, every every couple weeks,
• 38:26
  whatever you don't want. You don't want to make the time
• 38:29
  the the driver because it should be quality should be the driver,
• 38:32
  but there should be a calendar of of content.
• 38:37
  Is that because it wants the most relevant newest
• 38:39
  information? I mean, that kind of makes
• 38:41
  sense, right? And it wants consistency to show
• 38:43
  that you're not just, you did one thing, you don't really know
• 38:45
  it, but you've been doing it for a period of time, correct?
• 38:47
  And hey, let's pull the most relevant recent stuff we can.
• 38:50
  Yeah, yeah. Then there's also, there's also
• 38:52
  some evidence. I think this is actually a
• 38:57
  benefit. If you have googled recently a
• 39:01
  recipe on Google, you'll see what Seos have done wrong
• 39:06
  really. So recipes on Google will be
• 39:09
  very long to be a lot of words. They'll tell a story about how
• 39:12
  their grandma used to make this pasta recipe and she's from
• 39:17
  Italy. A bunch of things that nobody
• 39:20
  actually cares about, but it's a lot of content.
• 39:24
  Google has seemed to reward that sort of page.
• 39:27
  They put a lot of effort into it, it seems.
• 39:31
  Seems good. TGBT cares about chunks.
• 39:35
  They want that recipe. They want the bottom of that
• 39:38
  page. There's going to be, you know,
• 39:40
  this many cups of whatever and this many.
• 39:42
  That's what they care about. And so that's a difference.
• 39:47
  Google would be in in particular, maybe I'm maybe I'm
• 39:50
  dating myself a little bit, but in particular, you used to have
• 39:52
  a lot of words, you know, 1000 words.
• 39:54
  My friend Andy Cressidina publishes a a study of bloggers
• 40:00
  every year. And I mean, for years, the
• 40:02
  average post length just kept growing like more words, in
• 40:07
  other words. In other words, more more words
• 40:09
  per post. For the first time that it
• 40:13
  started to come down. I think that was like maybe two
• 40:15
  years ago it started to come down because people are
• 40:17
  optimizing for different signals now.
• 40:19
  They still want, there's an indicator that still wants
• 40:21
  search. So they're still going to write
• 40:22
  some longer form, long form content, but they are going to
• 40:26
  be, they're going to write chunk content that's really rich for
• 40:29
  LLMS. So if I if I'm making videos,
• 40:34
  does making videos help me rank higher in Google search and AI
• 40:38
  search? How does video fit in there?
• 40:40
  In and of itself no, but if you are creating good videos that
• 40:45
  hopefully have a transcript, hopefully there's stuff that
• 40:47
  Google can. Crawl, yeah.
• 40:50
  And likewise that that AI could probably, you know, maybe even
• 40:55
  could like. Watch the damn audio.
• 40:58
  And learn and train on it but. And so it's also like Google has
• 41:03
  the same models, Yeah, they probably can do that too.
• 41:07
  But from I'm thinking like an old school SEO, I would have a
• 41:10
  transcript that's easy to read and for them to crawl an index
• 41:15
  and. Like do you think it's like it
• 41:17
  is even Google, are they pulling up?
• 41:19
  It seems like they'll pull up LinkedIn posts sometimes or
• 41:22
  video or whatever it is. Like, do you?
• 41:23
  How much do you think social media plays into search?
• 41:25
  Yeah, it's there. There was a time where they call
• 41:29
  it a walled garden. They don't.
• 41:30
  Facebook in particular didn't want Google to be able to crawl
• 41:32
  their stuff. And then they give Facebook,
• 41:35
  then they give, you know, a little bit more access.
• 41:38
  So they'll, they'll let you crawl these parts of the website
• 41:41
  and over time, over time, that's the big question.
• 41:45
  So you can, you can prevent an LLM from or actually asked an
• 41:49
  LLM not to crawl your stuff. I could see why people would
• 41:52
  want to do that. They spent a whole bunch of time
• 41:54
  creating this content and now it's like, you're just going to
• 41:57
  steal my shit. I don't want that.
• 41:59
  Same thing with Google. You can just be like, you're not
• 42:01
  going to be able to crawl this. So it's a tricky, it's a tricky
• 42:04
  thing. You're like, could, could Google
• 42:08
  crawl every, every bit of LinkedIn?
• 42:10
  No, they're probably not going to, they're going to, they're
• 42:12
  going to put parts or perimeters around it.
• 42:15
  But it's a good thing to put a video up, I think on LinkedIn in
• 42:19
  and of itself. And if there is downstream
• 42:23
  benefits like appearing more prominently on Google or all
• 42:25
  alum sets, that's beneficial as well.
• 42:28
  And do you know from a search standpoint, when it's crawling
• 42:31
  through a website, is it looking for certain pages?
• 42:34
  Is it scrubbing the whole website?
• 42:35
  I know there's like the metadata, the behind the scenes
• 42:38
  stuff that's on there. And then there's like what's on
• 42:40
  the page, like break that down for us.
• 42:43
  Yeah, so they will. They'll crawl, they'll crawl a
• 42:47
  page and they'll go through hyperlinks.
• 42:50
  They call this like something surfer model.
• 42:54
  So anyway, they are crawling all of the all the content that's on
• 42:58
  that page and then hopping from hyperlinks.
• 43:01
  So if they if you're linking internally, they should crawl
• 43:04
  your whole page provided you've set up your website in a SEO
• 43:08
  friendly way. Some technical SEO
• 43:10
  considerations here that are kind of boring but important as
• 43:16
  well. If you link out, that's how new
• 43:20
  web pages get discovered by Google.
• 43:22
  So it's like they're going to follow from website A linking to
• 43:26
  website B, then they'll start to crawl this site and it just
• 43:29
  continues. Like a virus.
• 43:31
  Just continues to go through and all of that gets saved and
• 43:37
  updated. You know, depending on how how
• 43:40
  popular that website is, either daily or hourly or monthly.
• 43:45
  If you could come into a business and you can only do one
• 43:47
  thing to improve their search on how they get discovered by
• 43:51
  customers online, what would the one thing you would do?
• 43:55
  You have one kind of tactical thing you can do to a business.
• 43:58
  Yeah, I said it at the beginning, especially if they're
• 44:00
  a brick and mortar business, I think there's so much value in
• 44:02
  Google Business profile. I also think maps are a bit of a
• 44:05
  hedge in AI because what would and you still need navigation,
• 44:11
  You still need to know how to. Get if you can do that like if
• 44:14
  not if they. Are tough to have or what are
• 44:16
  they going to train on right maps yeah and there aren't there
• 44:19
  aren't 5000 of these things there's right Google Apple ways
• 44:24
  which Google Now owns. So I think making sure you're
• 44:29
  you're findable on maps and making sure you're findable on
• 44:32
  on search engine results page is really really important and
• 44:36
  you'd be surprised how many people mess it up.
• 44:38
  It's it's super it seems easy but good category selection
• 44:43
  making sure you've got in a way for your customers to engage
• 44:46
  with you with reviews that you're you're posting on to your
• 44:51
  on your Google business profile is really important.
• 44:53
  What, what, what has happened? This, this predates AI, is
• 44:58
  something called zero click search.
• 45:00
  So I do this a lot where I'm looking up a restaurant that I
• 45:05
  like to go to. On the right side you'll see
• 45:08
  what's called the knowledge panel where they've got
• 45:10
  information about that restaurant.
• 45:11
  Sometimes the information in there is more valuable than
• 45:13
  what's on their website, like they could put when the
• 45:17
  restaurant's the most busy, for instance.
• 45:20
  So when I don't want to go, then because it's going to be busy, I
• 45:24
  will see the I'll see the phone number for that restaurant.
• 45:28
  I'll. Call them and I will never visit
• 45:31
  the website. That's a great point.
• 45:33
  It's a zero click search. And you got no attribution for
• 45:35
  that? No attribution, yeah.
• 45:37
  And So what do you do with that? So this has been a, this has
• 45:41
  been a something going on for a long time in Google where zero
• 45:46
  click searches are now just like exploding because of AI
• 45:49
  overviews. So there's still a lot of search
• 45:54
  that goes on that we don't have those, that data that I started
• 45:58
  out a conversation talking about that I really love.
• 46:00
  It's, it's gone by the wayside. So if you're seeing that's a
• 46:04
  tricky customer management, account management problem where
• 46:08
  you're going like my friend, my friend Will Reynolds, who's like
• 46:11
  another agency owner, he, he said we need to get used to
• 46:14
  saying your traffic is flat. Isn't that great and.
• 46:18
  Like. You know that was never the
• 46:20
  case. You know, you would be like if
• 46:22
  if your if your traffic was flat problem, you know, but today
• 46:26
  they're just because of zero click search LLMS.
• 46:28
  It's more I think bigger loss is not people eyeballs moving from
• 46:34
  Google to LLMS, although that is a a real factor.
• 46:39
  Bigger problem is that Google is now just answering these
• 46:42
  questions. Instead of you going search, go
• 46:45
  to a website. I get some little attribution
• 46:48
  for that. It's you search the answer is
• 46:52
  there. You never go to a website.
• 46:54
  It's a zero click search do. You think websites will be
• 46:56
  irrelevant in the next 5-10 years?
• 46:59
  It's a good. Question I I I think you'll
• 47:02
  still have websites. You gotta have information right
• 47:05
  there, yeah. It just becomes, it just becomes
• 47:07
  a multiple multifaceted game. You know, it's it.
• 47:10
  Just because one thing's blossoming doesn't mean another
• 47:13
  thing goes away. A lot of times it's just you
• 47:16
  have to play. Yeah, a lot of positions now.
• 47:18
  Yeah, it'd be hard to see them going away, but also it's so
• 47:22
  hard to see in the future. If you go back 10 years ago, I
• 47:24
  don't think anyone thought we'd be here today.
• 47:26
  You know, when you first heard about Chachi PT and its powerful
• 47:30
  search engine and answer engine optimization, when you really
• 47:33
  had hit the scene and you were like, this is going to be big.
• 47:37
  How did you feel being a Google guy at that time?
• 47:39
  What was your kind of reaction initially?
• 47:41
  I just think it's cool. I mean, how do you, how do you
• 47:46
  think about things is really important.
• 47:48
  If I can help my customer, I don't care.
• 47:51
  You know I don't care if it's with AII, don't care if it's
• 47:56
  with carrier pigeons, right? Like.
• 47:58
  That's the perspective right there.
• 48:00
  How do you how do you help your customer get more, more value?
• 48:05
  And so if my, if my psychology is I'm an SEO and that's it, I'm
• 48:12
  in, I'd be in trouble anyway, you know, and like I said,
• 48:16
  there's a lot of that hack stuff that you see, I've been there.
• 48:19
  I like, I get a little hack in SEO and then that goes away.
• 48:24
  If you're really interested in just cultivating long term,
• 48:27
  mutually beneficial relationships with your clients
• 48:30
  and you will, you will move and evolve with them because you
• 48:34
  have the relationship with them. They'll allow you to experiment
• 48:36
  and tinker. And then before you know it, you
• 48:40
  have a a new service offering and then you have a case study
• 48:43
  and you have an that's how it works.
• 48:44
  And that's, that's how the whole, you know, that's
• 48:47
  professional services. One O 1 Yeah.
• 48:49
  And so when we're, when I, when I heard about it, I was
• 48:53
  interested at a personal level and then interested in how can I
• 48:57
  apply this to get more value for my customers?
• 48:59
  Yeah, goes back to what you said earlier, customer obsession.
• 49:02
  If you're focused on servicing the customer the best level
• 49:05
  possible, something new comes in.
• 49:07
  At first it's like, whoa, that's different.
• 49:08
  But then it's quickly exciting and something you want to test
• 49:10
  and try with your customers. I love that man.
• 49:12
  You mentioned to get a little bit more into your founder
• 49:14
  journey. You mentioned, I saw you had a
• 49:16
  post that talked about you had ruined your health.
• 49:20
  But this year you really turned it around, you know, growing
• 49:22
  your agency, you kind of let your health go on the wayside.
• 49:25
  What? What changed this year?
• 49:28
  Yeah, there's the back story is I've been an entrepreneur.
• 49:33
  This is my 16th year. Wow.
• 49:35
  So 2009 to. Congratulations, man.
• 49:38
  How many people make it that far?
• 49:39
  Yeah. I'm fully an outdoor cat at this
• 49:41
  point. Yes, you are, dude.
• 49:43
  There's no going in now. Yeah.
• 49:45
  So I I had three kids in that time.
• 49:50
  I stayed very busy and I think really it started to the problem
• 49:55
  started to escalate when I travel a lot.
• 49:56
  So a lot of our business comes from conferences and trade
• 49:59
  shows. And so that's a lot of nights
• 50:03
  eating out. It's hard, bad sleep.
• 50:05
  It's harder to track it, yeah. Drinks with clients, all that
• 50:08
  stuff. So I had gotten out of shape and
• 50:12
  and unhealthy, but it was there's sort of an inertia that
• 50:14
  sets in where I just continued to work, get the kids to their
• 50:18
  thing and the the busyness of it all.
• 50:22
  No changes were happening. And I wasn't at like young,
• 50:25
  younger me was a big athlete and like I consider myself like
• 50:31
  capable of playing sports in some way.
• 50:33
  So the, the big event was in May of 24, our V, our VP of search
• 50:40
  guy named Mark Irvin, who's very well known and PPC died
• 50:42
  unexpectedly. He was 35 years old.
• 50:45
  He's a good friend of mine too. It's like we work together and
• 50:48
  we he as much as anybody. He helped me build this thing
• 50:52
  and you go very close to somebody with that.
• 50:53
  So it was a devastating by far the hardest thing I've done in
• 50:58
  business is just trying to get the team back from that and
• 51:02
  rebuild because he was he had his hands and everything.
• 51:05
  So when when he died, almost my wife as much as anybody was
• 51:10
  like, you got to go see a cardiologist go.
• 51:14
  I was 41 then, right? Yeah, I was 41.
• 51:18
  So I, you know, did a whole bunch of tests.
• 51:22
  I was mostly healthier than I thought, but I, I had really
• 51:25
  high A1C, which is like I was pre diabetic.
• 51:28
  So I was heading toward diabetes if I didn't try to make some
• 51:32
  changes. So I tried a few things and I'm
• 51:36
  just an extremist to the Max. So if I don't really go crazy, I
• 51:41
  probably, I can't dabble. And so at the beginning of the
• 51:46
  year, I joined Adventure Club, which is Jesse Hitler's
• 51:50
  mastermind, if you know him. Yeah.
• 51:52
  And that was a big turning point for my health.
• 51:55
  So I've done a bunch of I've done 3 endurance events now that
• 52:02
  are notable. And he hired David Goggins,
• 52:04
  didn't he? He brought him live with them,
• 52:06
  yeah. Yeah, that's extreme.
• 52:08
  Yeah, with the SEAL and so. And Jesse's an amazing human
• 52:12
  being. I love him.
• 52:13
  I love all his stuff. And I've gotten to know him a
• 52:16
  little bit this year. And so I was like last weekend I
• 52:19
  was with him the last event. Yeah.
• 52:21
  And so the the first one was rim to rim to rim, which was the
• 52:26
  hardest one, honestly. So that is the rims I'm talking
• 52:29
  about are Grand Canyon. So I walked down the Grand
• 52:32
  Canyon, across, up the other side, down the North Rim, across
• 52:37
  and up the the South Rim. And so it's 44 miles.
• 52:40
  It took me 20 hours to do it. We did it one day too.
• 52:42
  It wasn't like gym camp and lost toenails and.
• 52:47
  Really. Amazing experience.
• 52:49
  It was an amazing experience. So the training for that was
• 52:51
  really grueling and I didn't I I didn't drink alcohol for two
• 52:56
  months. I dropped 2025 lbs.
• 52:59
  I got really a lot stronger. I was at the beginning, I could
• 53:03
  barely even run one mile and then I was doing 878 mile runs
• 53:07
  for training every every week, a bunch of bunch of exercise.
• 53:11
  So I, I got so into it and now it's now it really feels like
• 53:17
  this is a part of my life. I did this, this adventure.
• 53:22
  This adventure part is really in 2026.
• 53:24
  I'm already planning my adventures for next year.
• 53:26
  And so I, I'm, I'm a big cautionary tale for what can
• 53:32
  happen if you get super obsessed and, you know, it didn't have to
• 53:38
  have a lot of that's just lack of discipline, but also you can
• 53:45
  anybody who listens to this, it's, it's really hard to run a
• 53:47
  business. It's hard to have three kids.
• 53:50
  It's hard to I, I mean, I coach varsity football, I coach, I am
• 53:55
  involved in a bunch of boards. I just, I'm a hustler kind of
• 53:59
  person. So you you do that you need
• 54:02
  there. I needed the balance of exercise
• 54:04
  and diet and all that stuff to to make sure I could continue to
• 54:09
  perform at the to the NC 3. How do you do it all and find
• 54:12
  time to quote balance your work, your life, your kids, your being
• 54:17
  on boards, running the business? What's your kind of trick for
• 54:20
  that? There at any given time, I'm not
• 54:23
  in balance, right. I'm working out like a crazy
• 54:26
  person to get ready for an event that's not in balance.
• 54:30
  There are pretty soon I'm going to shut down and I'm going to go
• 54:35
  spend time with my family and I'm not going to be in balance
• 54:38
  with work and I have a lot going on at work and I'm just going to
• 54:40
  say see you in 2026. But there's a couple of tricks.
• 54:46
  I think one thing I I I've learned this through this
• 54:51
  adventure club or through my my journey here is your calendar
• 54:54
  can be your friend in this. So make sure I put in the things
• 54:59
  I'm I have to do this year. I have to do this race called
• 55:04
  trail and Park City. I'm going to put that on my
• 55:07
  calendar. I'm gonna Last year I had a goal
• 55:10
  to go on 22 dates with my wife. I've gone on 22 dates with my
• 55:13
  wife. That goes on the calendar.
• 55:15
  So you put all these really important things under his
• 55:18
  calendar for. Like the rocks and the Yeah.
• 55:20
  Exactly. You do all that stuff, put it
• 55:21
  all on your calendar 1st. The rest of the time that can
• 55:24
  work. And I wanted to attend 80% of
• 55:28
  the the practices for this football team that I'm involved
• 55:31
  in. I probably didn't quite get
• 55:32
  there, but I got pretty close. And then what's left?
• 55:35
  I can, I can work around that. And so it's, it's been really
• 55:38
  great. And there are, there are things
• 55:40
  that are priorities at work too, that I, I want to make sure they
• 55:42
  get, they get on the calendar. And so that's how it works.
• 55:46
  The other thing that really helps is I really, I really do
• 55:54
  tell myself it's myself talk, but I'm an entrepreneur.
• 55:57
  So I didn't start a job. I started a company the team has
• 56:03
  to do a lot of you know, I I I have to have a really good team,
• 56:07
  which I'm fortunately fortunate to have and that affords me the
• 56:12
  ability to sit with you and and and Tuesday morning not a care
• 56:16
  in the world. Yeah, it's nice.
• 56:17
  And so that psychological flip, which probably happened for me
• 56:21
  in like 2019-2020, I, I joined a, a group called Entrepreneurs
• 56:26
  Organization EO Chicago. That's yeah, I know.
• 56:29
  We have a mutual friend here who's who's in EO with me.
• 56:32
  Shout out Jared, awesome duties on the show.
• 56:34
  And, and so that that early period really helped me to shift
• 56:40
  from I'm an SEO, I'm a digital marketer to I'm an entrepreneur.
• 56:44
  And so even today, like you're asking me a lot of SEO
• 56:46
  questions, AEO questions, like can't believe there's people in
• 56:50
  my company would be better right there.
• 56:51
  Yeah, I'm not the best anymore. That's how it should be, right?
• 56:55
  I can. Spin some iron or whatever.
• 56:56
  But to really get that psychology right is I'm going to
• 57:01
  delegate a lot. I'm going to prioritize the
• 57:04
  things that are important to me. And then at any given point, my
• 57:07
  life will be out of balance, which is fine.
• 57:09
  Where do you spend most of your time now as a founder or CEO?
• 57:13
  Currently we're in an in an interesting point where we're
• 57:17
  looking to bolt on agencies. So I'm looking to acquire.
• 57:21
  So Corp dev would be kind of where I spend a lot of time and
• 57:24
  trying to find and I love, I love most of it and he
• 57:30
  absolutely hate some of it. It's really fun.
• 57:33
  It's always going to be a little bit.
• 57:34
  Of the case yeah it's really fun talking to other founders
• 57:38
  hearing their story and even if you're like you're not a good
• 57:40
  fit for us but that was a fun that was an enjoyable.
• 57:44
  Learn Something 40. 5 minute conversation.
• 57:47
  The part I don't like are brokers, lawyers, this whole
• 57:51
  cesspool like. Oh dude, I.
• 57:54
  Have vultures I don't really enjoy so I have wonderful
• 57:58
  lawyers. I really love them and I think
• 58:00
  one of the things that I really give them credit for is they
• 58:04
  speak this language. Nobody's authentic, nobody's
• 58:08
  sincere. The founder is, but no, neither
• 58:12
  they're a representation, they're broke or, you know, you
• 58:14
  have to be careful, walk on egg shells with every word you say.
• 58:17
  And so I don't love that. If I could just talk to the
• 58:21
  founder and we can navigate it without all these people, I
• 58:25
  would. I would like it'd be a 10 out of
• 58:26
  10 job. I'd do it.
• 58:27
  All right, I got you. Going back to the focus thing, I
• 58:31
  think one thing I try to do kind of on the micro level with what
• 58:33
  you do at a yearly calendar level is I've been trying to say
• 58:36
  coming into the day saying what are the three things I have to
• 58:39
  do today that's going to move the business forward and
• 58:41
  everything else can can fall after that.
• 58:44
  And then I think the other thing is just like a kind of a minute
• 58:47
  by minute, hour by hour focus reminder because it's so easy.
• 58:51
  Mom, I'm sure you probably see the same thing where you pull
• 58:53
  out your phone and pretty soon or you were going to check
• 58:56
  something on a LinkedIn DM and then you saw a post pop up from
• 58:59
  someone you knew and now you're in that.
• 59:00
  And then you got off LinkedIn, Now you're somewhere else.
• 59:03
  Or it's like you just can go a million different ways.
• 59:06
  And so I think part of the hack is focus.
• 59:09
  Just only do the thing that you need to do right now.
• 59:12
  And don't let your phone put it in the other room.
• 59:14
  Let it charge whatever it is. Don't let it pull you away
• 59:17
  because it's just it. I don't know.
• 59:18
  For me, it's easy to get down a rabbit hole quickly.
• 59:22
  I also think maybe it's because I'm in marketing, but there's so
• 59:27
  many things that are I they're trying to make you
• 59:32
  psychologically crazy. 100% everything is trying to make you
• 59:35
  move faster. Decide.
• 59:36
  Quicker. Stay on the.
• 59:37
  Platform. Yeah.
• 59:40
  And they're good at. It yeah upgrade from Uber X to
• 59:43
  Uber Black to Uber Comfort or whatever like it's like spend
• 59:47
  more money move more quickly, decide more and being just
• 59:51
  generally aware of that. I'm not a Zen, you know, I'm
• 59:55
  getting a little bit into, you know, an area I'm not that
• 59:59
  knowledgeable about, but really just being aware of that and
• 1:00:01
  going. I'm not going to play that game.
• 1:00:03
  Like the things just slow down and so that your phone is
• 1:00:07
  designed to make you anxious and.
• 1:00:10
  And it will. It will.
• 1:00:11
  In the head, you know, like you're it really, it really is
• 1:00:13
  just recognizing that and going, I'm not going to play that game
• 1:00:17
  like I, I I think that can be very helpful too.
• 1:00:21
  And the the importance of focus. Your your point about focus is
• 1:00:28
  really, really important. You know, where energy goes,
• 1:00:31
  everything flows. So as a founder, as a founder,
• 1:00:33
  where my focus is, is going to like people will galvanized
• 1:00:36
  around that. Yes.
• 1:00:38
  So if I'm, if I'm really interested in Corp dev, we're
• 1:00:40
  going to get really interested in Corp dev and that's the
• 1:00:42
  mission and that's people will will get involved.
• 1:00:45
  If I'm really focused on doom scrolling and letting them just,
• 1:00:50
  you know, it's going to be a mess.
• 1:00:52
  Like, yeah, we have to be, we have to be driving somewhere
• 1:00:55
  positive. If I'm talking customer
• 1:00:57
  obsession all the time, customer obsession to the point where
• 1:00:59
  they're rolling their eyes, like, you know, we'll say things
• 1:01:03
  like my friend Paul introduced me to this line.
• 1:01:05
  I'd say all this, I was like, profit is the applause of our
• 1:01:08
  customer, right? The profit is the applause of
• 1:01:10
  our customer. I love that.
• 1:01:12
  That's good. If I'm saying that, that's,
• 1:01:14
  that's, that's reinforcing. I'm obsessed with customers,
• 1:01:17
  right? It's their.
• 1:01:18
  That's a good line. It's their, it's their applause
• 1:01:21
  that is, that is our profit. Where did that come from?
• 1:01:23
  I don't know my friend Paul Piggle.
• 1:01:25
  Who's did he make it up? I.
• 1:01:27
  I I want to get that on some painting or something that's
• 1:01:29
  really, really good. And so if I'm saying that, then
• 1:01:32
  that becomes that becomes that tone at the top becomes
• 1:01:36
  hopefully what everybody else says.
• 1:01:37
  And if they don't and the contrast shows up, yeah, it's
• 1:01:41
  it. It will.
• 1:01:42
  It will. They'll be.
• 1:01:43
  It just might be about a nice person.
• 1:01:45
  But can't we can't coexist in a working environment.
• 1:01:49
  Yeah, if we don't have that. So.
• 1:01:52
  And what is it? What is the next 5-10 years look
• 1:01:54
  like for you? What's your ultimate goal with
• 1:01:55
  the business? Sounds like now you're trying to
• 1:01:57
  acquire, but is the goal at some point to sell?
• 1:02:00
  Is it to pass it on? Have you thought that far ahead?
• 1:02:03
  Even I don't. Know, I mean we, we, I'm very
• 1:02:06
  interested in this next run. So we talk, we have like a
• 1:02:09
  financial number, but I want to take the, the agency basically
• 1:02:15
  like triple it in the next three years.
• 1:02:18
  And so to do that is a combination of acquisition and
• 1:02:23
  organic growth. And then we should like incubate
• 1:02:27
  some services of our own, right? So that's a really fun ride that
• 1:02:32
  that does mean we're going to have to grow up a lot and some
• 1:02:35
  of the fun fly by the seat of your pants, less and less of
• 1:02:38
  that these days. But you know, it's fun.
• 1:02:42
  It was fun to run a pirate ship. And so it's fun.
• 1:02:45
  It's fun to this first phase, but now it becomes much more of
• 1:02:49
  like really disciplined rigor in every system and processing your
• 1:02:56
  business to make sure, yeah, you can scale appropriately.
• 1:02:59
  If an agency is listening right now, what are you looking for?
• 1:03:03
  So we're looking for a few things.
• 1:03:04
  One, we don't want to again, I don't want to hire a job.
• 1:03:08
  So I want somebody that it can be founder LED, but they should
• 1:03:11
  have a team and they the founder could leave and.
• 1:03:15
  The operation was. So.
• 1:03:16
  So there are things that are just important and fine, it
• 1:03:21
  needs to be cash flow positive. I'm not well about being a Piggy
• 1:03:26
  Bank for a start up, you know, that's just not my, that's not
• 1:03:28
  my thing. And then I would want something
• 1:03:31
  that's you can, you can imagine what these services would be
• 1:03:33
  like things that are complimentary to you guys.
• 1:03:36
  Yeah. And so to make a short story
• 1:03:40
  long, we, we got to the point most of my clients are small
• 1:03:45
  businesses, almost all. And we got to the point where we
• 1:03:49
  started, we're starting to plateau.
• 1:03:52
  You think about it this way, if you have $10 million of revenue
• 1:03:57
  and you're retaining 80% of your clients, which isn't bad in
• 1:04:01
  small business land, that means you need to sell $2,000,000 of
• 1:04:05
  services every year just to tread water, not grow, just to
• 1:04:10
  not lose money. So that becomes really hard and
• 1:04:14
  that reality, it started to hit me and I was like, man, well,
• 1:04:17
  how do we escape this, this trap?
• 1:04:20
  And so I decided I let's try and move up market.
• 1:04:22
  Let's try and get to the mid market.
• 1:04:25
  I'm not trying to get to enterprise OR like that, but
• 1:04:27
  let's get to mid market. So I talked to an agency friend
• 1:04:29
  of mine and he said, well, he was in between you.
• 1:04:33
  I was like, I'll introduce you to these guys.
• 1:04:34
  I'll introduce you to these guys.
• 1:04:36
  Anyway, they're not going to talk to you.
• 1:04:38
  You just have two services. They want an agency, they want
• 1:04:42
  to be able to drop any problem they can think of and it goes
• 1:04:46
  places and it's done. Right.
• 1:04:48
  And they don't want 26 niche service offerings, right?
• 1:04:53
  And so, yeah, I would recommend you grow your your agency
• 1:04:58
  horizontally, like your service offerings horizontally.
• 1:05:02
  I don't just do what anybody says.
• 1:05:03
  I thought about what he said a lot and I think he's right.
• 1:05:07
  And So what would be, if you could think about what would be
• 1:05:10
  a good bolt on to a company that's very strong on PBC and
• 1:05:13
  SEO, that would be who I would want to talk to.
• 1:05:18
  If you have a complimentary service to that, I would love to
• 1:05:23
  talk to him. Cool, Mark, I appreciate you
• 1:05:25
  doing this, man. This is a great conversation.
• 1:05:26
  Where can people find you, connect with you, learn more
• 1:05:29
  about what you guys do? So searchlab is my company,
• 1:05:32
  searchlabdigital.com is our website.
• 1:05:36
  I would just point people to we have a lot, a lot of free
• 1:05:43
  educational content about search.
• 1:05:45
  This, this topic that we're talking about South.
• 1:05:47
  Greg Gifford's weekly video series is called Local Search
• 1:05:49
  Tuesdays. Yeah, so he he's cool.
• 1:05:51
  He's enthusiastic about it too, which makes a difference.
• 1:05:53
  Yeah, I was talking to him on the way over here.
• 1:05:56
  Dane Seville is our Director of Brand Experience.
• 1:05:59
  He is doing at least monthly webinars now, which are awesome,
• 1:06:05
  and we're getting a really good response rate for that.
• 1:06:07
  Susan yen is on the PBC side. She's speaking at conferences
• 1:06:10
  all over the place. So you can find us at
• 1:06:14
  conferences. You can find us on our website
• 1:06:16
  and our blog and then hit us up on LinkedIn or Twitter or
• 1:06:20
  whatever your your favorite platform is and we usually share
• 1:06:25
  educational content there. Cool.
• 1:06:27
  Appreciate you coming by. Thanks for.
• 1:06:28
  Thanks for the thanks.