Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Pre-Trib Myths Exposed | Lee Brainard

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Pre-Trib Myths Exposed | Lee Brainard · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy a Prophecy Watchers Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast today, everyone. Mona Benzez here in
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  Speaker 2: studio with Lee Brainer. Welcome Lee Mondo.
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  Speaker 1: It's good to be with the Prophecy Watcher family once again.
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  Speaker 2: You know, and we've been doing some other programs which
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  Speaker 2: has been great. But tell me I forgot to do
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  Speaker 2: this last time. Kind of tell people where they can
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  Speaker 2: find out about you and what you're doing. I apologize
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  Speaker 2: for that.
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  Speaker 1: Well, they can go to my website, which is Soothkeep
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  Speaker 1: dot info and if you actually type in dot orger
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  Speaker 1: dot com you'll still find it because I own those
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  Speaker 1: domains too.
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  Speaker 3: You can go to my.
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  Speaker 1: Soothkeep channel on YouTube or on rumble, and you can
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  Speaker 1: go to social media and just look for Soothkeep Yep.
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  Speaker 2: Just put in Lee Brainer you'll find they'll find you're here.
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  Speaker 2: You're well known and around. I also want to remind
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  Speaker 2: everybody before we get started on this, we're going to
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  Speaker 2: be talking about the rapture mart MacDonald and of course,
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  Speaker 2: as we all or, the accusations are that the rapture
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  Speaker 2: was started by either Darby or this Margaret McDonald person,
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  Speaker 2: which we'll talk about today but just remind everybody if
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  Speaker 2: you again are interested, to put on your calendar a
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  Speaker 2: couple of items, and that would be our upcoming October
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  Speaker 2: ninth through twelfth conference in Norman, Oklahoma. We usually do
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  Speaker 2: two conferences a year, and this is going to be
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  Speaker 2: our fall conference. It's gonna be a great time. Lee's
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  Speaker 2: going to be there amongst twenty others at least of speakers,
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  Speaker 2: so it'll be good time. And then also in October,
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  Speaker 2: we're going to be heading on a trip to Greece,
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  Speaker 2: and it's actually kind of a full kind of Middle
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  Speaker 2: Eastern type trip where we're going to go to Athens,
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  Speaker 2: we're going to see the Parthenon, We're going to go
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  Speaker 2: to Mars Hill where Paul spoke in Act seventeen. Well,
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  Speaker 2: we're going to take a ship down to Egypt and
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  Speaker 2: see the Pyramids. On the way back, we're going go
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  Speaker 2: to Cyprus and kind of do a second missionary trip
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  Speaker 2: journey of Paul over there, along into the coast of
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  Speaker 2: Turkey my leadist troas these other places, and then a
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  Speaker 2: seven Churches tour that's always kind of fun, and then
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  Speaker 2: over to eastern Turkey to the Darupinur site, which is
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  Speaker 2: one of the main candidates for Noah's art. So it's
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  Speaker 2: gonna be a great time. And you can go to
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  Speaker 2: prophecywatchers dot com go to the events tab and just
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  Speaker 2: scroll down and you can get the link there to
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  Speaker 2: see about all of the itinerary and everything else. So Lee,
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  Speaker 2: here we are. And why is it that we why
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  Speaker 2: is it that we keep talking about this particular topic.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you wrote, you just wrote an article for
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  Speaker 2: us for the magazine, our monthly magazine. If maybe you
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  Speaker 2: guys don't know that we have a monthly magazine print
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  Speaker 2: and digital which you can get access to lots of again,
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  Speaker 2: people like Lee and others writing every month on prophecy
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  Speaker 2: topics and others, but this particular one. Maybe could describe
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  Speaker 2: what you did in the article and then we'll kind
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  Speaker 2: of get into the nitty gritty of it.
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  Speaker 1: Well, in the article, I answered the theory, the lie
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  Speaker 1: that the pre trip rapture came not only from Darby,
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  Speaker 1: but he got it from Margaret McDonald, who had a
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  Speaker 1: manifestation from a fallen spirit pretending to be the Holy Spirit.
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  Speaker 1: And of course, if this is the case, if that's
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  Speaker 1: where Darby got it, if that's the source, that would
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  Speaker 1: of course debunk the pre trib rapture. Why would the
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  Speaker 1: demon teach us the truth he's going to be teaching
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  Speaker 1: us a lie. Well, we're going to In that magazine article,
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  Speaker 1: I debunk that theory and I showed that it's absolutely
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  Speaker 1: impossible that Darby got the pre trip rapture from Margaret McDonald.
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  Speaker 2: So again, just for people that are maybe new to
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  Speaker 2: this or maybe they're not, it doesn't matter what. Try
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  Speaker 2: to be thorough. But you know, we believe that the
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  Speaker 2: rapture is going to happen prior to the start of
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  Speaker 2: the seventieh week of Daniel, the tribulation period. We are
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  Speaker 2: not going to go through this time period of judgment
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  Speaker 2: and wrath, and so this is why we call it
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  Speaker 2: the pre trip position. And there's the mid trip. Some
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  Speaker 2: people think it's that raptures in the middle pre wrath.
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  Speaker 2: Some people think it's going to be about three quarters
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  Speaker 2: through the tribulation, and then the post trip position. Some
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  Speaker 2: people think that it's going to be after and for
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  Speaker 2: their various reasons. But one of the accusations that we
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  Speaker 2: get often is that you can highlight your other book
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  Speaker 2: on this, is that this doctrine of the rapture happening
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  Speaker 2: before the tribulation. We're not going to go through. It
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  Speaker 2: is something new and recent that began with at least
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  Speaker 2: at the minimum Jonathan Darby and around eighteen thirty eighteen
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  Speaker 2: twenty seven. Okay, but just for the sake of helping
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  Speaker 2: people who want to get more information, you have a
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  Speaker 2: book that you just put out about the Early Church Fathers,
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  Speaker 2: and that this idea of the pre chrib rapture is
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  Speaker 2: not anything new, because that's the accusations new. Therefore we
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  Speaker 2: have to reject it. So just briefly talk about the
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  Speaker 2: book that you wrote on this.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the book is called Recent pre trib Findings
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  Speaker 1: in the Early Church Fathers. And I demonstrate that the
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  Speaker 1: two earliest documents that have any extensive writing an all
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  Speaker 1: in prophecy, which is the Dittikei and then the against
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  Speaker 1: Heresies by iron Aus, which so that we have here
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  Speaker 1: the first in the second century represented. They're both clearly
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  Speaker 1: dispensational their pre trib and pre millennial. And then I
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  Speaker 1: show from the third century with Eusebius in the fourth
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  Speaker 1: century with Efrium the Syrian, that the pre trib rapture
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  Speaker 1: position was still alive and well deep into Church history.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, with the nine passages in the book from
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  Speaker 1: Eusebius and the ten from Efrium the Syrian, those were
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  Speaker 1: actually passages that I discovered on my own research and
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  Speaker 1: introduced to the dispensational world.
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  Speaker 2: And so with that book be a like the definitive
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  Speaker 2: collection of all reference. Because Tommy Ice has written about
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  Speaker 2: Doctor Tommy Ice has written about some of this and
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  Speaker 2: other works. Do you have everything in that book or
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  Speaker 2: is that just the stuff that you've discovered?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's just the passages that I found in
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  Speaker 1: you seeb A Scenephrium the Syrian, along with treatment of
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  Speaker 1: the Ditiki and Ireneus that goes broader and deeper than
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  Speaker 1: most treatments have given it. You'll probably have to buy
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  Speaker 1: two or three other books if you really want to
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  Speaker 1: get a full collection of all the early Church references
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  Speaker 1: to the rapture.
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  Speaker 2: Well, and see, and that's a great problem to have, righty.
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  Speaker 2: And so that this idea that the rapture is something new,
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  Speaker 2: the preacher rapture is something new is again this is
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  Speaker 2: something we hear so so often, and and you know,
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  Speaker 2: you try not to be mean or arrogant about it.
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  Speaker 2: It really is it can be frustrating because you're like,
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  Speaker 2: you see the stuff, I'll post it on social media
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  Speaker 2: and you're like, are you really that ignorant and that
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  Speaker 2: do you don't know that? Really you're just perpetuating something
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  Speaker 2: that you heard, something you were taught and you haven't
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  Speaker 2: done any other research. And we see this even as well,
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  Speaker 2: and you and I are we're working on a documentary
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  Speaker 2: that is answering the pre rapture position because they're critical
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  Speaker 2: of the pre trip position in their documentaries and we're
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  Speaker 2: doing a documentary response. But even them, these are scholars,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, these are top PhDs in their field New
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  Speaker 2: Testament studies and other things, and even they make the
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  Speaker 2: argument that the pre trib rapture position is recent.
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  Speaker 1: Well, one of the difficulties we face with if men
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  Speaker 1: start with a presupposition and embrace it as a prejudice
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  Speaker 1: that colors their ministry, it's really hard to shake that.
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  Speaker 1: And it will color your research, it will color your investigation,
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  Speaker 1: it will color what you write, it will color how
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  Speaker 1: you think. And this is one of the difficulties that
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  Speaker 1: we as individuals need to overcome, whether we're just a
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  Speaker 1: layman or whether we're a pastor whether we're a traveling teacher.
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  Speaker 1: We need to come to the point where we're actually
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  Speaker 1: approaching these questions with a great deal of candor, and
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  Speaker 1: we're willing to investigate and weigh the arguments on both sides.
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  Speaker 1: If you start by rejecting one side, where's the candor
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  Speaker 1: where's the real investigation.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really true. Because the other book that I
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  Speaker 2: recommend is William Watson, his book Dispensationalism before Darby, and
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  Speaker 2: that book came out a few years ago. He actually
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  Speaker 2: just passed away in the past couple of years. He
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  Speaker 2: was a professor out at I think Colorado Christian University,
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  Speaker 2: and he went back into really the sixteenth seventeen eighteenth
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  Speaker 2: centuries with the Puritans coming out of England, showing that
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  Speaker 2: again in addition, certainly a little bit later. But the
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  Speaker 2: idea that Darby started it again in the early eighteen
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  Speaker 2: hundreds is simply just not true. And so he did
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  Speaker 2: a extensive work that these ideas pre existed Darby.
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  Speaker 1: Well, one of the problems that we're facing too is
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  Speaker 1: people will assert that there's no known pre trib rapture
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  Speaker 1: passages clear in the early Church Fathers, but when you
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  Speaker 1: look at their source they're quoting from men who wrote
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  Speaker 1: in the sixties and the seventies, and the state of
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  Speaker 1: research in the patrictic writings has exploded since the seventies.
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  Speaker 1: We've got the works of a number of well known
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  Speaker 1: dispensationalists have gone forwards in the last four decades, and
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  Speaker 1: they've uncovered a tremendous amount of We could probably if
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  Speaker 1: we stopped and thought about, we could list ten different
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  Speaker 1: names that have done research into the early Church Fathers.
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  Speaker 1: And that has changed the picture. We have a better
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  Speaker 1: grasp on the early Church Fathers. And I haven't met
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  Speaker 1: someone who opposes the pre trip rapture who's argues all
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  Speaker 1: the Church Fathers don't teach, and you start dealing with
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  Speaker 1: them and you realize they're just quoting somebody they read.
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  Speaker 1: They haven't done any actual investigation. But yet I know
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  Speaker 1: a number of pre trippers who have done their own investigation.
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  Speaker 2: And you know what in that that's kind of fascinating too,
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  Speaker 2: because again, the more scholarship happens, I always you know,
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  Speaker 2: if I'm going to look at a book as an example,
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  Speaker 2: and I have the chance to research a topic on anything. Again,
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  Speaker 2: I'd love doing astronomy, but I took astronomy back in
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  Speaker 2: college in the year two thousand. Well, if I'm going
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  Speaker 2: to go study a topic in astronomy, I'm not going
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  Speaker 2: to use my two thousand year, my year two thousand textbook.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. So like last year, I went out and
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  Speaker 2: bought the brand new textbook that's out now, because I've like,
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  Speaker 2: with all the stuff that's been discovered just in the
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  Speaker 2: last you know, twenty some years, that's a big deal,
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  Speaker 2: and so why would I go And so in this sense,
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  Speaker 2: somebody could read a book on eschatology from nineteen seventy
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  Speaker 2: five or whatever, and it's not necessarily that you know,
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  Speaker 2: the Bible's eternal, but they don't have the latest research.
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  Speaker 2: And here we are. And so talk maybe mentioned as
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  Speaker 2: well that in your one of the things that sets
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  Speaker 2: you apart from some of these other researchers in this
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  Speaker 2: in this category is that when people right now, if
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  Speaker 2: people want to go do I'm gonna go do my
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  Speaker 2: own research about the Church Fathers, well they're going to
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  Speaker 2: go maybe they're going to go to log ofs and
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  Speaker 2: get a log us software and they're going to get
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  Speaker 2: the collection. But that collection is going to all pretty
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  Speaker 2: much pretty much be in English. There's going to have
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  Speaker 2: some Greek, because I have it, you have some Greek.
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  Speaker 2: But the stuff that they get in English. What percentage
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  Speaker 2: is in English of the Church Fathers.
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  Speaker 3: Well, it's going to vary from author to author.
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  Speaker 2: Huh.
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  Speaker 1: With Augustine it'll be a pretty high percentage. But with
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  Speaker 1: someone like Ucbius, all the only work that might be
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  Speaker 1: there is his work on church history, and other works
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  Speaker 1: that are extant are not going to be in the collection.
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  Speaker 1: And I've discovered that when men were pre millennial and
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  Speaker 1: pre tribulational, their writings in those fields don't make it
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  Speaker 1: into the English language collections.
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  Speaker 2: So what you're doing, so then again, describe what you're
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  Speaker 2: doing in order to overcome that.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to the TLG website, that Thesaurus ling
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  Speaker 1: Grecy website, which is a repository of Greek writings from
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  Speaker 1: Homer all the way forward to maybe one thousand a d.
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  Speaker 1: So you're going from Homeric era Greek to classical Greek,
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  Speaker 1: to coin A Greek, to Patristic Greek, and then up
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  Speaker 1: into Byzantine Greek. It's a gigantic sector of human history,
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  Speaker 1: and everything in Greek is in this collection, and they're
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  Speaker 1: adding little bits and pieces here and there, but all
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  Speaker 1: the main works are already gathered. And I use that
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  Speaker 1: website and I search exhaustively through individual authors. I use
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  Speaker 1: that website and search for individual terms. So I've done
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  Speaker 1: research on a number of Greek words here and really
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  Speaker 1: got a good handle on them. And one of the
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  Speaker 1: things I love to do is search for terms that
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  Speaker 1: have to do with the pre trib rapture.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so just so people understand is that what Lee,
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  Speaker 2: what you're doing, Lee, is you are going to the
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  Speaker 2: original Greek language for these that have not been in English.
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  Speaker 3: That's exactly right.
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  Speaker 2: So here you have these unpublished works in English, never
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  Speaker 2: never been there. But it's just sitting there waiting for
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  Speaker 2: someone to scour. And let's be honest, do you know
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  Speaker 2: of anybody else at all in the world that is,
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  Speaker 2: we know people are using the TLG for their own purposes,
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  Speaker 2: no doubt, but anybody else scouring them looking for pre
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  Speaker 2: trib rapture statements.
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  Speaker 1: I've met people who've used it on one or two
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  Speaker 1: occasions for a brief period of time, but actually going
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  Speaker 1: through and to matter the entire body, author by author
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  Speaker 1: or or work by word, and going through, because I'd
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  Speaker 1: go through and i'd take the word harpozzo, and I'd
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  Speaker 1: pull up every reference to harpozzo, and I'd go through
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  Speaker 1: all the church fathers and their passages could be hundreds
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  Speaker 1: of them, and then I'd read those passages and then
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  Speaker 1: I would gather every other rapture term or related term
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  Speaker 1: to the rapture, and then I would go search all
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  Speaker 1: those terms, and I gathered the tribulation terms, and I
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  Speaker 1: searched those terms, and I brought up a ton of
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  Speaker 1: stuff on the Antichrist, ton of stuff on the tribulation,
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  Speaker 1: ton of stuff on the rapture, and it was a
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  Speaker 1: treasure trove.
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  Speaker 2: So this is important. So really, I would say that again,
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  Speaker 2: this isn't a topic that some secular person at New
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  Speaker 2: York University is going to be going and doing. You're
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  Speaker 2: interested in it because number one, you have the skills
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  Speaker 2: to do it. God's blessed you with that. You have
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  Speaker 2: access to this, and you also have an interest in
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  Speaker 2: order to see what else is out there, and so
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  Speaker 2: the fact matters you might be one of the only
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  Speaker 2: people in the world that is doing this specifically in
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  Speaker 2: this tremendous body of literature that's available but nobody else
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  Speaker 2: is doing it. So it's not that this is like
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  Speaker 2: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence idea.
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  Speaker 1: That's exactly right, and it was. It was a blockbuster
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  Speaker 1: find really to be able to present those nineteen previously
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  Speaker 1: unknown pre trip rapture passages to the dispensational world. And
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  Speaker 1: it's interesting now that kind of the novelty of the
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  Speaker 1: find is wore off in a lot of circles, and
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  Speaker 1: I find people send me links to YouTube videos where
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  Speaker 1: well known names do videos presenting some of these rapture passages,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm just thankful they're going out there.
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  Speaker 3: No no hint where they came.
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  Speaker 2: From, nored.
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  Speaker 3: You know, it doesn't really matter.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true because ultimately, I mean, once it's put
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  Speaker 1: out there in the public for the public church, it's
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  Speaker 1: public church domain.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. No, that's good and so so in that regard,
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  Speaker 2: what we're simply trying to say is if you have
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  Speaker 2: been one that maybe in your church, which happens, or
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  Speaker 2: you've heard it, that I can't believe in the preacher
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  Speaker 2: rapture because number one, it doesn't appear in the Bible.
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  Speaker 2: The word rapture doesn't appear in the Bible, or it
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  Speaker 2: was started by Darby, or which we'll get into in
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  Speaker 2: a minute. Margaret McDonald, first of all, let's let's address briefly.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't the word rapture or the idea of the
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  Speaker 2: rapture is not in the Bible anywhere. How do you
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  Speaker 2: respond to that.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I would say, first of all, it actually is
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  Speaker 1: in the Bible. It's in the Bible, the exact same
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  Speaker 1: way that the word apostle, in the word baptism is
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  Speaker 1: in the Bible, the word angel is in the Bible.
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  Speaker 1: Rapture is simply a transliteration of the word that we
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  Speaker 1: have in the Greek via the Latin Greek harpozzo in
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  Speaker 1: Latin rapeo are the same stem. It's the same stem
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  Speaker 1: our ap in Latin Greek and in English, and with
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  Speaker 1: the Greek harpodzo. The h isn't actually a letter, it's
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  Speaker 1: a rough either. That's optional from dialect to dialect pronounce
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  Speaker 1: It's like in English, some people say horse and others
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  Speaker 1: say orse. That's what we have in Greek and the
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  Speaker 1: oddso ending is not part of the verb stem. It
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  Speaker 1: is simply the verb ending so rap rap. It's in
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  Speaker 1: all three languages the same word with the same meanings,
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  Speaker 1: and we could have just as well taken First Thessalonians
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  Speaker 1: chapter four, verses thirteen through eighteen, and instead of translating
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  Speaker 1: it along the lines of snatched up or taken up,
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  Speaker 1: we could have translated it raptured up.
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  Speaker 2: Yep, so that would be very very clear. We see
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  Speaker 2: this as well, as you mentioned, into the Latin. So
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  Speaker 2: when you people look at the Latin vulgate in first
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  Speaker 2: Sessalonians four seventeen, it's there.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, it's rap aimer.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, there it is. It's it. So when you look
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  Speaker 2: at that word the rest of the conjugations, you'll have
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  Speaker 2: rapt it'll be there, depending on its its conjugation.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a Latin exactly.
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  Speaker 2: So what you're seeing there is this is where we
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  Speaker 2: get for example, a raptor, the bird's or even the
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: dinosaur raptor. It's something that these birds would come and
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: snatch it an animal, and so you have the raptor
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: class of birds today.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: It's also where we get the word rape because that's
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: the same root it was Ravish is from the same word.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, so here we are. So again, when you it
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: is in the Bible, most people don't read Latin, but
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: it's there in the Greek. Most people don't read Greek.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: But when we bring it across into English, they just
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: use the word caught up, like again, like a bird
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: would come and catch up or sees a bird of prey,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: or you know whatever. So this is just simply people
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: have heard this, and I think it's easy when people
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: are taught well, that's not in the Bible, so I
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: can't believe it. Well, I appreciate that. I don't want
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: to believe something that was not being the Bible. But
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: it's just not true. So once we establish that it
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: is in the Bible, we can get rid of that argument.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: And then the second one is again, we did we
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: already established that this is something it's a new doctrine. No,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: it's not new either. Now would you say that during
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: the Middle Ages, let's just say, roughly five hundred a d.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: To sixteen hundred eighty the Middle Ages of the Church,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: that the rapture doctrine was lost? And then could we
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: say as well that the Gospel of salvation by faith
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: alone grace alone was lost? Also, I mean, this isn't
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: unusual for major doctrines to be lost. To talk about that.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, probably we're going to find out in glory
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: that it wasn't lost absolutely.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good to say.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: But it was lost largely in mainstream Christianity.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: In that sense was the Catholic Church.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And so the Catholic Church just drifted farther
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: and farther away from the Bible and became more locked
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: into their own traditions. So when we saw the rise
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: of the Reform and the rise of solar scriptur, which
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: my eyes almost well up with tears, and I think
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: of that concept of returning to the Word of God, yep,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: that led to a recovery of lost Biblical truth, and
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: that principle ultimately led to the recovery of the pre
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: tribulation rapture. Now, I suspect some people have pointed out
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: hints scattered through the Dark Ages in books like William
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Watson and with a few things prior to the Reformation,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: and a few other authors that have brought stuff out
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: that there were rapture passages or apparent rapture passages in
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: the medieval Ages. But once we come to the Reformation,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: this concept started stirring up again in a much more
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: common manner, and by the time we get into the
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds, the conversation of the rapture and the
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: tribulation the Antichrist. It was in the air. Everyone was
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: thinking about it. Everybody was talking about it. Darby was
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: not the first one to think about it.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the thing. So you start seeing a
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: turn of attention from understanding. Again. The main theme of
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: the Reformation was the doctrines of grace. You know, the
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: soul is salvation. How are we saved? And then you
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: see that last for a couple hundred years, and then
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: people started looking. And of course, now the Bible is
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: spread into English, it's spread in all these languages. Bibles
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: are getting printed, so now everybody is you know, everybody's
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: getting Bibles, their own personal Bibles. And then you come
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: all through the seventeen hundreds, you see that printing presses
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: is busy, busy, busy. And now people are starting to think,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: starting to read the Book of Revelation. They're starting to
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: look at all the other the Thessalonian Epistles and all
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: these these other more eschatological topics, and where before they
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: didn't even have a Bible that's necessarily to read. So
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: you see what God is doing, and no doubt you
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: see a shift in the thinking towards the end of
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: the age, okay. And I mean, you know, if you
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: think about biblical history being six or seven thousand years,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: you know we're really at the end of the age
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: of those no matter what, no matter how you look
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: at it. So so now so we have this. Those
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: are all the things that contributed to why this is
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: a topic that is relatively newer a topic. I wouldn't
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: say the doctrine is new, but the topic is newer
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: and what people are focusing on. And I'll just say
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: this too that for those that say that the doctrine
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: of the preacher rapture can't be true because no one
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: in the Middle Ages talked about it, that was the
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: same argument that the Catholic Church used against the reformers.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: If the argument is valid, then let's walk away from
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: salvation by faith alone.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Let's all return to the Catholic Church.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Yep, and let's be saved by sacraments, you know, and
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: by works, which, of course Galatians one seven or nine
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Paul said. And if an angel, anybody, if even an
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: angel comes and delivers this different gospel by faith, play
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: something let him be a cursed anathema. That's why we
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: reject again the doctrinal statement of the Catholic Church as
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: relates to the Gospel. I believe it's satanic because they
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: add works to it through a whole bunch of things.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: So logically we have to embrace It's okay, we're going
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: back to the Bible, which is what the reformers did
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: about the Gospel. We're going back to the Bible as
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: it relates to the pre trib We've talked about it.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: So let's get into specifically then maybe introduced to the audience.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Introduced to them who Margaret McDonald is, and even in
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: some ways, who Jonathan Darby is. I mean, you often
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: hear Darby is some villain, some Satanist almost, but he's
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: actually a very brother. We're gonna see him in heaven.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Right, oh, no doubt about it.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: So maybe introduce our audience if let's start with Darby
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: and then let's talk about that connection to Margaret McDonald.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Well, in the late eighteen twenties and in the eighteen thirties,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: there was a movement that wasn't limited to England, but
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: it largely started in England of a group of men
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: who come out of the Anglican Church. The other high
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: churches came out of the Quaker Church, and they.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: What do you mean by high churches for people?
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Are high churches sure, like the Episcopalian Church, the more
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: liturgical type, the liturgical churches, yes, and the separatist churches
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: that had already earlier come out of the Anglican Church,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: and they're more formally organized. And these people came out
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: of these groups and they decided, let's just meet together
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: as simple believers. So they're a meeting in a format
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: that would be somewhere in the area if you're familiar with,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: like the Brethren or a Bible church. Very simple gathering together.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not a lot of liturgy. We would call these
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: low churches just because it's again in contrast to the
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Anglican And even in the Anglican Church you have high
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: and low churches there too, Yeah, but the highest is
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: very again liturgical, rather than just more you would say,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: more casual folks around Bible study, Okay, and so on.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: These gatherings of believers, there was a focus on the
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: person of the Lord Jesus Christ, a focus on the
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: on the simple Gospel of the Bible and a focus
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: on the Word of God, and that focus on the
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Word of God led to the recovery of what we
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: call prophetic truth. And when and they got excited about
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: the things of God because when you lay hold of
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Bible prophecy and you understand that we have an ugly
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: future coming, but beyond that short window of ugly there's
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: a massive window of eternal beauty.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: And you lay.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Hold of this picture of Bible prophecy that we know
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: what's happening in the world, we know why it's happening,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: we know our place in it, and it's ultimately going
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: to be very, very good. Laying hold of this is
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: like grabbing an electric fence and getting a charge. And
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: once you lay hold of it, you can't let hold
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: let go of it. It gets a hold of you.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: And it led to a revival. It led to a
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: revival that spread through the Brethren, It spread through the
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Modern Fundamental movement, Its spread into the Missionary movement, and
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: then later on it spread into the Jesus movement and
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: in the Calvary Chapel movement. It's still going today with
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: the Modern Prophecy movement. It's been NonStop since eighteen twenty seven.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: And the thing about it, which I think is this
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: is where you see too again people are getting the
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Bibles out. They're starting to read not just again New Testament,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: but they're reading about Ezekiel, they're reading about the Dry
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Bones Vision, they're reading about who, Well, what does it
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: say about Israel?
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: That's right?
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: And this really was the beginning of prophecy. Books that
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: have come out that said, watch, we don't know how
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: it's going to happen, but Israel's going to come back
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: in the land. And so, you know, I have books
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: from you know, again the mid eighteen hundreds commentaries that
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: talk and they read these passages and they're like, well, again,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know how it's gonna happen. I don't know
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: what the Jews are, but according to what I'm reading
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: here in a very normal literal, grammatical way, plain since
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: the Jews are coming back. So this really sets up
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: a whole process going into the late eighteen hundreds with
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: all the Israeli immigration, the Zionist movement, you know, and
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Theodore Hertzel and others, certainly all the way into the
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: into the twentieth century, early twentieth century Belford Declaration Bulblek
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: goes on. Okay, so we have Darby. Tell us more
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: about him.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Well, Darby in eighteen twenty six had a horseback accident
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: and it laid him up for months.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: And so who is he? First of all, for people
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: that don't Jay and Darby.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Was one of the handful of men that organized what
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: we today is known as the Brethren. Some people call
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: them the Plymouth Brethren because that was one of the
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: strong meetings in the beginning.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: In Plymouth, England, England.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: So he's an Englishman and he had been a clergyman
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: in the Anglican Church. He left his clergy office and
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: decided to just meet his simple Bible believing Christians without
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the high Church structure, without the high Church liturgy, and
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: let's gather around Jesus and around the.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: Word of God.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: So he, while he was laid up from this horseback
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: writing incident, spent a lot of time studying the scriptures.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Now give us his skills.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Well, Darby was a world class classical Greek scholar.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is not just some country guy out here.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Now he's a scholar.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: He was recognized amongst his peers in and out of
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: the Anglican Church as a scholar of the first rank.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: He was graduated I believe it was from Cambridge with
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: honors as a scholar in classical Greek literature. And he
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: regularly read classical Greek in Coina Greek as well as
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: the Greek New Testament, so he knew his stuff. And
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: he tells us in his writings that in eighteen twenty
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: seven is when he was convinced of a pre tribulation
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: rapture based on Second Thessalonians two one through three. The
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Greek structure there is just a simple Greek petition. There's
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: tens of thousands of the same structures all over in
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: coin a classical Greek. And he recognized that structure there
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: made a distinction between the rapture and the day of
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: the Lord, and that he was simply saying, I beseech you, brethren,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: by the rapture, or on account of the rapture, not
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: to worry about the day of the Lord.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: So it wasn't even for Cicelonians four that got him there, No,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: he so that and and if you missed, uh Lee
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: and I we just did a whole other podcast recently
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: on second and Sozian Shepherd two. And you know, basically
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: discussing the exact same position. So here he is camping
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: out where we were, and he's like, hey, this precedes
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: that this rapture is there's no worry, there's no there's
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: no uh. He's telling him not to worry about it. No,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: don't be scared out of your mind. Okay.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: So, and it was it was encouraging for me, as
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: a young believer to read this. I was at the time,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: I was wrestling with the pre trip rapture post trip
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: rapture dichotomy, and I was leaning towards the post. In fact,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I was post trip at the time. But I read
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: in Darby's own writings that he said, I learned the
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: pre trip rapture from Second thest Loans two one through three.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: I went back to my Greek New Testament and I
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: started reading through that passage.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: I could not shake it. And that the fact.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Of the structure of the Greek in that passage, it
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: ended up being one of the nails in the coffin
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: of my post tribulationism, because the Greek structure there is emphatic.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: We got no business treating this passage as if it
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: has unique grammatical structure. It's not unique grammatical structure. It's
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: just a common Greek petition.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, So he comes to this position and there's
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: no doubt in which we don't deny that. What but
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: did he do then? Obviously we talk about him popularizing it?
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: So what does that really mean?
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Well, prior to that time, there had been individuals popping
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: up here and there from the Puritan ranks and from
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: people that were separatist churches, and from people that were
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: laymen who wrote books or pamphlets or articles defending a
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: pre tribulation rapture. But it never took root. There was
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: never a single body of men. There was never what
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: we would call us where you reach critical mass.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: They never had that.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: And so with Darby in this circle of men that
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: gathered with him and they were all convinced of the
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: pre trip rapture, they all started teaching with passion and
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: defending it, just like Polus defended the Gospel focused on
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul would defend this from
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: the scriptures that Jesus was a Christ. Well, in the
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: same way, they had that same holy boldness, that same
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: holy passion, and they were defending the act of the
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: soon coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to gather his
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: church out of the world and then take up his
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: program with Israel and finish his program with Israel. And
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: because they had the scriptures on their side and they
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: argued with passion, they ultimately saw this spread so that
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: it spread well outside of the Brethren circle that they
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: were in, and it spread to all the other conservative
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: evangelical churches around them. In fact, what's fascinating is when
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Dallas Theological Seminary, for instance, first started, a lot of
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: the men were Presbyterian and Congregational. They weren't merely Brethren
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: and Baptists.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: So then when did it come? Did Darby come across
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: to America? And if you did, did that come with him?
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: And then, like you said, then talk about the dates.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, in the era from and I don't know
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: all the exact dates, but in the era from about
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: the eighteen fifties through the eighteen seventies, I don't remember.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: If you made like six or seven trips to the
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: United States, spoke widely in churches and prophecy conferences, and
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: he convinced a lot of people of the pre tribulation rapture.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: And then the people that he convinced. Many of them
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: wrote their own books on it, And he was convincing heavyweights.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: He wasn't just making a small coterie of followers who
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: were just hanging on his coattails. He was influencing men
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: of weight, men of bigger, men of talent, who themselves
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: had large platforms, who were Bible school teachers, who were
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: well known. Later on, some of them became well known
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: radio personalities when radio first came out. So this became
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: a movement that got way bigger than Darby, got way
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: bigger than the Brethren. The truth caught fire and ran
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: through America.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: And then in America what you mentioned Dallas, So was
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: that kind of the main seminary that was used or
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: that promoted or did it go beyond that?
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Well, it wasn't the only seminary that defended dispensationism in
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: the pre trip rapture, but for many, for quite a
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: few decades, it was regarded as the bulwark for dispensationalism
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: in America, and many pulpits were filled with men who
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary with a strong education in dispensationalism.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I went, you know, I went to Moody
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: and I know Moody. Moody was always kind of the
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: undergrad of Dallas Theological Seminary.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: It's like a feeder school.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: It was a feeder school in Dallas, no doubt. And
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: I actually was approved to go to Dallas a couple
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: of times, and just God never allowed it to happen.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: But I really wanted to go to Dallas. But so
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: we see it now and then of course now it's
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: it's it's very in the evangelical world. There was kind
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: of a big heyday I think of of really seventies, eighties, nineties.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Now if you look at the evangelical world, the pre
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: te raptures now kind of declining, I think in many
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: of the churches, and then in the schools for sure,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: even Dallas to some degree. You have progressive dispensationals, you
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: have other viewpoints. But so let's bring this full circle then,
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: so you have all of this is happening, and there's
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: no mentioned anywhere of Margaret McDonald. So now some people
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: are coming along and going in their own accusations, going wow, wow, wow. Well,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: what you don't know is that Darby really got this
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: from this demon possessed woman or this woman Margaret McDonald
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: almost like an L. G. White type figure of Seventh
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Day Adventism. So talk about her, where does she come from,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: what's her connection, what's the accusation and what's the truth.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Well, in the early eighteen hundreds, like the around eighteen
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: thirty going forwards, there was a movement in England known
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: as the Irving Heights. It was an independent movement that
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: kind of in Scotland that merged with the London based Irvingites.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: They were very similar. There were a proto Pentecosta movement.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: They have a lot of manifestations, they received a lot
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: of visions, they received a lot of prophecies. Margaret McDonald
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: received a word of prophecy about the rapture, and she
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: received that in eighteen thirty. Now, just on that information alone,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: we can assert authoritatively, We can state authoritatively Darby did
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: not get his rapture doctrine from Margaret McDonald. Margaret McDonald
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: in her own writing says she got it in eighteen thirty.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Darby in his own writing says he learned the pre
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: trip rapture from the Bible in eighteen twenty seven. So
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: you can't make the correlation. But it gets worse when
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: you read Margaret McDonald's own testimony, which can be found
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: in the biography that was written about her brothers and
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: includes her testimony, she plainly states a position that we
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: would regard as a pre wrath rapture.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Position at a pre trib a pre wrath.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Yep, the church is.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Going to go through three and a half years of
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: tribulation under the Antichrist, and then we'd taken out of
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: the world prior to a short window of rapture. Now
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: that does not resemble the pre tribulation rapture in any way,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: shape or form.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: You have to poke your eyes out to think it
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: does something.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Hypothetically or potentially it could be a mid trib or
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: a pre wrath either one.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: And to them, they were operating on the ground similar
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: to many of the early Church fathers where in many
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: of the early Church fathers they don't talk about a
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: seven year tribulation. All they talk about is the three
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: and a half years of great tribulation. They don't even
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: have a seven year period.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: And so this is where so she's talking about. So
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: she would not be a mid trib in the way
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: we have understand it. She's they're talking about this last
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: three and a half years, the great Tribulation, so to speak,
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: as the only tribulation that's exactly right. And so she's
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: thinking that in this, in this last three and a
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: half years, they're going to be part of that. You know,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: let's say half of it, which we would understand to
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: be a quarter of this, it would be half of
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: the second half for us in our full understanding.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: In fact, well for them, they are actually thought they're
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: going to go through the entire three and a half years,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: oh okay, okay, and then after the end of the
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: three and a half years, then wrath would come down
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: for a short window of time of unspecified length. So
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: it's very similar. It's not identical, but it's very similar
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: to the pre wrath rapture position of today. Yes, okay,
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: because it wouldn't be a traditional post trip position because
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: they have like just a few hours of wrath at
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: the second coming.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: They don't have a.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Period that could go weeks or months the pre wrath
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: rapture position today they and they have three and a
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: half years and the church is going to go through
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: two and a half to maybe three years of that
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: last part of the tribulation, and then the last sliver
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: is the wrath of God. So it's not identical to
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: the post trip or to the pre wrath position today,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: but it is in the same generic sense as a
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: pre wrath rapture.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: So we have Yeah, so we have two issues then
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: with with Margaret. One is the timing issue. Yep, Darby
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: clearly discussed in his writings prior to this. And then secondly,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: her position doesn't match the pre trip position anyway, it's
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: more of the pre wrath. Did Darby did he follow
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: a seven year tribulation? Absolutely so for him, So she's
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: got a we have we have a seven year tribulation.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: We understand that for many reasons seven to week of Daniel,
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: seven years, et cetera. And we think the whole thing
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: is a has difficulties in it, and it's called the
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: tribulation period because she'sus certainly. In Matthew twenty four versus
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: No describes the first half before the abomination desolation, he
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: describes it as tribulation that he uses the word he
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: uses great tribulation in the second in twenty four twenty
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: one and on. Okay, so you have that where you
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: have tribulation and tribulation in the entire seven year period
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: by Jesus' words, and so Darby followed that. Yes, okay,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: but McDonald along, like we were mentioned before, even some
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: of the early Church Fathers in some of their confusion
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: or I would say, they only saw a three and
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: a half year period of tribulation in Wrath, right, Yeah, okay,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: so that's what she held to. Yes, so again that's
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: contrary to what Darby thought. And therefore Darby, that's another
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: timing and multiple layers of disagreement.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, no doubt.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: So really, what's also interesting, Darby in eighteen fifty seven
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: said that he got his rapture views clear thirty years earlier.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Eighteen fifty seven minus thirty is eighteen twenty seven, okay.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: And then you also so again the reason one of
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: the reasons to bring this up is is to encourage
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: people to get the magazine because you wrote a full
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: article on this, giving all of the sources, and you
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: wrote in there that Darby addressed the irvingites.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: He sure did see.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about not only the question is did
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Darby look at Margaret donegall Oh that's such a wonderful doctor,
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: and I'm gonna embrace it. Yeah, what did he really
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: say well in his.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Collected writings, which I have the collected Writings of Derby
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: in my library in hardback, and I also have it
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: online and the E version. But in volume six and
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: on page two hundred and eighty four through two hundred
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: and eighty five, he describes his visit to the Irvingites.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: He went out of curiosity. He didn't go out of interest,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: like I wonder if there's some cool truth here. Yeah,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: he went out of curiosity because he'd heard about the phenomenons,
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: the experiences, the prophecies, and he went there, he experienced it,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: and he came away with a very negative view of
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: what was going on. He did not regard it as
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: being from the Lord. For that matter, none of his
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: associates in the Brethren that visited the Irving Eye movement,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: or visited the Scottish version of it that was associated
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: with Margaret McDonald and her brothers, none of the Brethren
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: embraced that stuff. They all rejected it. So it's ridiculous
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: to teach that Darby got his doctrine from the Irvingites.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: And so again, now we have a third we have timing. Yeah,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: we have the content, and now we have his very
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: overt criticism of what he felt concerning the movement itself
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: as not being of the Lord. And therefore he certainly
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: isn't going to be like you said, Oh wow, I
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: want to grab that information and then use it. And
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: it inspired him to create something new.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, So it's just the age old practice of guilt
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: by association. You know, when people go to a guilt
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: by association argument, they're basically admitting that they can't defeat
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: the issue with real arguments, so they have to go
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: with ad hominem argument. They have to go with guilt
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: by association. Oh, Darby went to the Irvingite movement meetings.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: That's where he got he must have got it. Yeah,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: complete fallacy. And as you said, I think what people
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: need to grasp here is that again, what people don't
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: know Darby. That's why I asked you. Darby was a
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: great scholar.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. He was a biblical scholar. He was a Greek scholar.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: He had competency in Hebrew. He was a brilliant man.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: He translated the New Testament into German. He translated the
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: New Testament into French. Plus he did an English translation,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: now the English translation. He died before he finished it,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: and so the English translation was finished by his colleagues
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: based on his French and German translations.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Lee, this has been phenomenal, and I think
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: that kind of the closing here too. Maybe give us
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: a wrap up in the sense of, let's go back
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: to Darby's original conviction. By the power of the Word
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: of God as it relates to Second Essilonians two, people
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: can camp there. What is second Essilonians two telling us well?
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Verse one says, guys, you're going to meet the Lord
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Jesus in the clouds. Verse two says, don't worry about
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: the day of the Lord, and verse three says if
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: you don't see the anti Christ in the apostasy, you're
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: not in the day of the Lord. So, in a nutshell,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: you could paraphrase the whole thing, Brethren, we beseech you
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: because of the rapture to not worry about the day
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: of the Lord. You were going to go up to
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: the Antichrist. You're not going to go through the time
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: of the anti Christ.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's so much more there, And again, courage
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: people to check out one of our previous podcasts on
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: this exact discussion. And so the power of the Word
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: there is again is rich and then it leads you
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: to the previous book for Salonians, chapter four, where it
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: gives a description of the process of what's happening at
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: this rapture, at this harpodzo, this catching away event, which
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: again we can connect with other passages of scripture. In
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: one tree, It's fifteen that those who are alive will
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: be changed in a moment. But the rapture process, this
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: catching away into the clouds to see the Lord and
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: be with him forever, is clearly that first Sustenance four
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: gives us the process, doesn't really specifically talk about the
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: timing or the sequence of as it relates to wrath,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: not till you get to chapter five, verse nine. Right,
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: we're not appointed out a wrath, But in Seconnes two
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: rapture followed by the day of the Lord. The first
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: part of the day Lord is the Antichrist and rebellion
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: and goes on don't worry about it. Basically in verse two,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: don't don't get freaked out.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: So here we are Lee, Where can people find out
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: more about you?
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Soothkeep dot info from my website, soothkeep on YouTube, and
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: soothkeep on social media. Like Telegram and Instagram and uh,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: well they call it x now, but I still call
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: it Twitter.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank everybody for listening today. I hope
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: you were encouraged. Again. Our goal is to research. I mean,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: we don't want to be uh, we don't want to
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: just believe something because that's what we were taught. The
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: preacher rapture is very defendable, not only scripturally, but as
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: we've seen here, theologically, historically, et cetera. And it's good
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: to get the facts out. And I really hope that
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: if you've if you've made it this far, and that
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: if you hear people say that the rapture, the preacher
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: rapture is new, is invented by RB associated with Margaret McDonald,
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: please share with them this podcast. Amael, thanks for listening.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: We'll catch you next time.