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Talk With April · Babes, how did you get here

• 0:00
  Yes, Emela. Okay. Yes. Marda, can you call me? Hi, my darling.
• 0:29
  Yeah, man. Yeah, I can't hear. Okay, guys. I will remove myself from the stream and it can start. Cool. I'm the moderator. If there was any technical issue, I would be here, okay? Like if there's anything wrong or anything, just let me know, but I will just check out that everything will fine. Okay, guys? I will just remove myself and let you. All right, cool.
• 0:58
  Hi, I'm Betul Visini, I was bloody irritated. Anyway, this Sunday we are talking about the World Cup and I shared a post about Doku wanting to go home for the birth of his child and he was heavily criticised for that. And on that post, although I didn't make it about Re, because you know, baby, we only had one minute.
• 1:20
  there was definitely some undertones to unpack. And since then, I've read that a Serbian TV pundit has caused a little bit of outrage because he went on to say that Black people lack concentration beyond 60 to 80 minutes. And he was speaking about this specifically with the Belgium versus Iran game. When his co-host challenged him on what he was saying,
• 1:48
  think to switch gears, he doubled down and he said that no, he has always said that these people have, majority of them, have issues concentrating for a long period of time. I know that you have some experience with Serbian women babes, so I thought that I would kick off this conversation by just saying...
• 2:11
  What do we think is actually going on in terms of representation and who people are choosing to play for in the World Cup? In terms of, here, I get it. You know what I mean? Because, like, some of my friends will talk about origins and why origins are important. You know what I mean? Because they will say, if you're born in France, you're French. If you're born in this, you're that. You know what I mean?
• 2:42
  some of my friends are Europeans. Like we're talking about Africans who were born and raised in Europe. They say they feel like outcasts because growing up every day, they were reminded that you are not one of us. Right. You understand? So therefore I get it. You grew up in the country and that's what you know, you want to represent that country. But at the same time,
• 3:08
  If you're not representing that country and wearing their colors and letting them feel good in society, in that same country, you're treated differently as a second-class citizen. So I can never get it. As Jose Mourinho said it once, he said, African players are players of African origin.
• 3:27
  should play for their original country their african country that will make african football better and that will make it more competitive and not do you think that if african or caribbean or whichever other non-european country right do you think if they had infrastructure higher pay then people would choose to play for them is it just about the money you know what i get it because all right so for instance even
• 3:58
  like Jamaica, for example, right? And you talk about those, you know, Leon Bailey and all of them who, you know, me personally, if I was one of them, I'm not gonna go to Jamaica to play football on those kinds of fields because we know the infrastructure in Jamaica, right? We're not gonna do that because my career is playing in England
• 4:23
  for Aston Villa or whosoever. That's where my brother and brother come from. Hold on one second, because my dad and I were talking about this. The reason why I think football is so unique is because you could still play at club level
• 4:38
  with the big boys, on the beautiful pitch, earn the whole heap of money. And you could still... So you can have the best of both worlds because you could earn lucrative salaries and be good in terms of your finances. And you could still choose to play for your home team, like a Jamaica for National Pride. What I was getting at is, if I come to Jamaica, I play on one of them, Daji Beach. I can...
• 5:07
  Break a leg or get a long-term injury that messed up my career. Because I remember football player career is short enough. You get what I'm saying? So I can come try to represent my country, which I'd love to do. But I might get an injury that's career ending. You get what I'm saying? I haven't thought about the injury. That's actually a really good argument. And that's probably the only reason why I struck certain games. Go ahead.
• 5:37
  No, no, that's the only reason probably why I personally wouldn't, or I can understand why they wouldn't want to do it, especially if it's not like important games, like world qualifiers or anything, or a tournament, like friendly games. Oh, let's have a friendly game, you know what I mean? No, I'm not going to do that, sorry.
• 5:59
  My last question is that if you had a son and he wanted to play for another country like an England or European country, or he had the choice of playing for Jamaica, what would you want for him and why? You know what? My heart's a Jamaica. You have to play for Jamaica, but based on, um, in terms of career and how far it could bring him, uh,
• 6:28
  because you know my daughter is German. So for instance, my daughter was a son, right? And you know what? The infrastructure, the development, everything. I mean, my heart's a Jamaica. I would want him to play for Jamaica. But let's be honest. You know what I mean? Say for him. You know what? Play for Germany.
• 6:59
  Under the German jersey, you wear a Jamaican jersey. That's how you play for both of them. Well, thank you for your quick 10 minutes. I appreciate you taking the time. Yeah, man, no problem, man. And I think it's a difficult one. The injury that you brought up, the injury dynamic, I hadn't thought of it. So thank you very much. Yeah, man, bless you. Have a good one. See you. Cool.
• 7:33
  So next up, I have Michael. Oh, who hasn't Michael joined or not joined? Michael's not ready. But I do think I can I can speak about this anyway, because I've been researching the
• 7:57
  the matter before we came on live Sunday. And I think it's interesting because there's been a lot of information about even siblings who have chosen to play for different teams. So you have African siblings who one has chosen to play for an African team and another has to play for a European team. And I think that perhaps even as a Jamaican, this idea of identity and national pride is super interesting.
• 8:26
  Because if you've ever had a debate about nationality and being Jamaican, it is very...
• 8:39
  is a hot topic, right? Because I think for Jamaicans, if you are not born in Jamaica, you will never be Jamaican. For others, people will accept that you could be born elsewhere to Jamaican parents, and you will be Jamaican. But I think that it's an interesting topic for debate.
• 9:00
  K Salmon, big up yourself baby, thank you very much for supporting, even if it is a quick stopping by. Cecile, my darling, how are you? Bigging up from Jamaica, loving the good vibes as per usual. But yeah, I do think that there is, it's something to be said when we see time and time again, that if you have Black or mixed heritage players, when they're playing well,
• 9:27
  Everybody's right. But the minute they make a mistake or there's an error, then we see the usual racism come out, whether it's the keyboard warriors or whether it is people, you know, we've seen in the past people throwing bananas on the pitch or chanting in the stands.
• 9:48
  racist things and I just think how can you really represent a country that only wants you when you're playing well and then to to contradict that you have the likes of the Spanish player what's his name Lamine Yamal so he scores his first goal so he's not doing badly he's doing great because he scores his first goal
• 10:12
  a game his first goal for the world cup against Saudi Arabia and he does the sujud I hope I pronounced that correctly but basically it is in an Islamic frustration where you bow down and basically Spain is upset Spain is like this is not a Muslim country so even when you're winning the idea that you are showing part of yourself because he is Muslim so the idea that you have part of your
• 10:42
  who you are on display, that in and of itself is not acceptable. And, you know, we see the rise of racism, we see the rise of anti-immigration beliefs across America. And I just wonder...
• 11:02
  Does football have the power to make changes? Does football have the power for progress? Some could argue that by being on that pitch, by wearing the flag, even when others aren't happy about it, that in and of itself is progress. That in and of itself is making a statement.
• 11:26
  is having a seat at a table, we will. And some people might argue that you can't change things unless you're showing up. That I can see the argument for it. I think it's a thin argument. It's definitely touching at straws, but I see that there could be an argument for that. But, oh, hi, my darling. Kay, how are you? I'm great, thank you. How are you?
• 11:54
  I'm good. Where are you from? I'm in St. Mary, Jamaica. Big up Jamaica every time, my darling.
• 12:05
  Thank you very much for taking time out of your Sunday. We're just having a quick conversation about race, representation, the World Cup. Being from Jamaica, I'm sure you will have feelings about the fact that not only are we not at the World Cup, but I've been seeing a lot of information players who are playing, whether it's for Canada, England, the US, and they could have played for Jamaica.
• 12:33
  And I look at these lineups and I'm like, oh, we could have had a squad, babes. And I'm just wondering, what do you think it means for a country like Jamaica to truly be able to have a winning lineup when essentially we're having brain drain, but in the football? Absolutely.
• 12:55
  You know, April, I can't believe you picked this for me because I was having this conversation with two friends of mine whose children are big time football players in the States and who would love to play for Jamaica. And the discussion we were having is that it's not likely to wind up that they do play for Jamaica. And so we had to talk about the why. So one of the things that I'm going to step a little on the edge of the antsiness, but I'm not going to step into it.
• 13:24
  But we do have a problem with our own governing body here in Jamaica and how football is managed in the Jamaican context. So it's very clear to me that a lot has to happen there. I'm not going to go any deeper into that because, you know, it's just not the time. But what one of the things that we noted or that we were discussing is that
• 13:44
  We already know that when it comes to how a Usain Bolt is created, right? There's a particular approach that we have with athletics in Jamaica. We're at the little babies, and you go through the prep champs and the primary champs and then champs.
• 13:59
  You're looking at grooming these kids if they show a certain kind of acumen from a certain age. We don't do that with football in Jamaica, right? And so what happens is that we get to the stage where we are supposed to be pulling on the people who would have been groomed over time.
• 14:19
  And of course, we're looking overseas because they have kids who have gone through like, you know, the Barca stuff in Florida and that whole thing. So I believe that what we have to do to change exactly how we experience what happens at the tournament level in Jamaica is to start at the grassroots.
• 14:40
  to start grooming in a positive way. Have people appreciate the game from early and look at helping the kids that are genuinely curious and who'd really like to be a part of it. Look at finding a place for them to be able to develop their skills. But what I would add to that is
• 15:00
  these children outside of Jamaica, who I consider Jamaicans, because to me, if you can get a Jamaican passport on any, you're Jamaican, full stop. That was gonna be one of them's things because you know that is always a controversial thing. I know, I know, but I'm claiming them, right? You see, for me, if you can get a Jamaican passport, because here's the thing, we like to quarrel about it, but we'd like to go somewhere else and hope somebody will claim us when we have a little piece of something. So I am fine if somebody's grandparent
• 15:29
  was born here and they can get a Jamaican passport. To me, what is more important is that that person feels Jamaica here enough to want to to put on that jersey. And I don't mind sharing that at all. I don't have any issues with that. So to me, when we're starting at a grassroots, we're looking at developing the camps that will have those kids come
• 15:49
  at a certain point of the year. So we're talking about having the, let's say we have a camp in July, right? And to my mind, we should look at when, when there are breaks in Europe for football to do these camps, right? I'm not even thinking about this side of the world. I'm not even pretending. So if we look at when there's a championship breaks in Europe and the UK, right? And look at having the camps in Jamaica that those kids, no matter where we find them,
• 16:15
  they can come and they can be here and they start to grow together. Because what happens, you know, is that if that's how we approach it, right, we're talking about getting to a point when these children know each other, they know each other's style. And when we're calling upon them to play at the tournament level, they've already had some experience together and they are kind of, you know, in sync in a way that we don't find that our teams are, when we get these kids from outside of Jamaica who have not been,
• 16:44
  necessarily there's no chemistry there is no chemistry and chemistry is valuable in football so you mentioned america and florida and i wondered what you thought about the fact that more than half of the current u.s squad has dual citizenship right six were actually born outside of america and we cannot ignore
• 17:07
  the current climate immigration in the states where we see that immigration is being weaponized, right, politically being weaponized. Yet I find it quite ironic that you then have these players representing America on the stage. And I just wondered, from your perspective, is it that football is a special place where we're able to have almost a idyllic scenario? Or do you think that countries
• 17:36
  being hypocritical and essentially putting aside these beliefs for the sake of the room.
• 17:43
  April, the big old elephant in this room is that the United States of America has always benefited greatly from using people from elsewhere. And I'm gonna use the term use as opposed to accommodating or any other euphemism, simply because when it suits the United States of America, you're American and it's always been that way. So let's not pretend that football is where it opens the door. It is in academia, it is in every other sport,
• 18:11
  As long as there is a benefit to be had, you are considered someone who is valuable. And that benefit must be seen before you touch grown. It's not like, oh, maybe there could be a benefit. Let's see what this kid grows into. So once you can show value, right, that's something that the United States of America is going to.
• 18:34
  is going to definitely pull on. So let's talk about hypocrisy. I believe it is largely hypocritical of them and many of us who do it because I'm willing to bet if all those people who are playing for the states never had that talent that they perhaps would have had a little more of a challenge becoming US citizens or even seeking
• 18:59
  to represent the United States, you know. Yeah, because we see it for champs all the time, right? When they want a player to leave Jamaica, to go to the States, there's no issue. Exactly. And the thing that I would say about it is that I kind of wish, I kind of wish, because I'm at a very controversial place about race.
• 19:22
  in particular, because we can't look at football and not look at race. In fact, any sport, for whatever reason, there is a higher representation of people considered a certain thing. So let's say that when we look at what happens in the United States of America and what makes a person valuable, we cannot deny that the weaponization of race has become a thing because
• 19:53
  If you kill somebody, if you dope, you're suddenly Jamaican. But if you score some goals, you're American. And so it's almost as if you force these kids into a role where like, you know, boy, I'd really love to play for Jamaica, but what happens if this goes wrong or what happens if... So they know where the money is. They know where their bread is buttered. And so they know what they're likely to choose. And I think that
• 20:22
  When we think about the World Cup and we think about how many of the people on the US squad are not like homegrown, born and raised Americans or they're holding dual citizenship, it begs the question, what is a citizen really?
• 20:39
  Like, you know, where are we drawing the lines and who does it suit when these lines are drawn? Because if we're looking at the globe in a real sense, you know, when we start to draw these border lines and all these lines, we tend to kind of make them dotted lines when it suits us, you know? Or we gray them out a little bit or, you know what I mean? So, yeah.
• 21:02
  When you have the Serbian TV pundit saying that black players lack concentration beyond 60 to 80 minutes, and he doubles down and he says the majority of black players lack concentration, I don't know.
• 21:19
  I initially was very shocked by this statement. Again, when you see the fact that not just in football, but our athleticism across disciplines of sport is undeniable, right? As a black community. And yes, I do think that sometimes these generalizations can be dangerous, but I think it's fair to say that it applies in this sense. And even when you talk about...
• 21:48
  and wanting to go for his first child's birth, which I think definitely goes against the stereotypes of the absent black man, the absent black father, because apparently none of us have dads who are present. Yeah.
• 22:03
  I guess my initial thing is how people are really still holding on to these stereotypes, that they are not just believing them, but very comfortable saying them out loud in public forums. Do you think that we are ever going to be able to get away from the society that holds these negative stereotypes despite the fact that they have been shown time and time?
• 22:32
  time again to be untrue? You know, April, I'm at a very radical place where race is concerned. And let me tell you what that is before I go to that question. If you ask me on a form what my race is, I'm no longer answering. So I go to other and I put in anything that comes to mind in the moment. And I'm serious about that. And why have I gotten there?
• 23:00
  The social construct that is race is going to continue to birth all of these experiences that we're referring to, including what this Serbian idiot must have said. It's going to get there simply because we continue to allow people to put us in these boxes and to accept race as a real thing.
• 23:27
  Now, I'm not saying that they haven't used it in the past, that same construct to make sure that there are disempowered people on the planet. We do know this to be true. But I feel like a part of the conversation has to be
• 23:42
  If this isn't a real thing, why are we still supporting that we are being categorized this way? And so I refuse to be. And that is my personal contribution to it. I am just one person and it may never take us anywhere. But it seems to me that to change the conversation, to make sure that people don't continue to say this kind of thing, we should...
• 24:01
  take away that box that they can sit us in. So no, I'm not black. I'm sorry. I am chocolate. I am anything else. I'm just done. I am absolutely done with that. Because to me, that's what's helping this discussion to become that kind of
• 24:15
  thing. Now, it might sound even juvenile to treat it that way, but I continue to think that the one drop rule has, it has permeated every aspect of our being. So this idea that if you have even this much black blood, you're a black person, it's not an empowering thing. What it was was something to make sure that you were tainted. And we have embraced this taint.
• 24:41
  Yes, I have one drop of black blood, but it still makes me human. We're going with, you know, you can have blonde hair and blue eyes, but you're still black because you have one drop of black, you're just white passing. What is that nonsense? Can we just, just stop? And that's where I'm at. I feel like we have to change the conversation.
• 24:58
  We have to refuse to be labeled, refuse to be boxed, and refuse to be called a thing. So I'm no longer giving a form, the ability to put me in a certain category when I'm applying for something or I'm being considered for a role. No, I am not any of these things. I put other.
• 25:15
  Some days I put Jamaica on and you might think I'm stupid because Jamaican is not a race, because it isn't. I might put Rose. I might put anything that is not Black, because I'm not doing it. I'm just done. And so I kind of feel like the mature part of that conversation is,
• 25:31
  How do we take the narrative back and change the social positioning of race so that it's absolutely zero? Because that's really what it is. There is absolutely nothing after you cut my skin. And, you know, we all bleed red type thing. So why are we allowing this to form how conversations happen?
• 25:51
  If children were born into a society where they automatically know that, oh, there are other people who might appear differently from you, they might have darker skin, and they don't
• 26:03
  start to call those people a thing. So they're black people because their skin is different or they're white people because their skin is different. We wouldn't be here. So I think it starts at the very youngest level when we have our kids in preschool or basic school or whatever it is, before they even hit the primary or elementary level, before we're at prep school, we're having conversations about
• 26:27
  humanity about what makes a good person a good person and that's just where i'm at with it and i i don't know that i'm going to make a lot of difference but yeah that's where i'm at thank you very much for your time my darling i am going to jump over to michael to hear what he thinks and i hope you will join us for another another sunday session you know what i'm i'm honored to have been here and feel free to call on me anytime
• 26:54
  Hi, Michael. Thank you, my darling. Hey, how are you doing? Really, really powerful words from you. Really powerful words from you. Thanks for having me. I'm going to go watch now. Bye. Michael, you're clocking in from England? Yes, indeed. From West London, England. Thank you.
• 27:14
  Thank you very much for giving up a little bit of your Sunday. We are having this discussion around the World Cup race and representation. As I know you will know, when I saw the England lose in the Euro 2020,
• 27:31
  It perhaps was surprising for some, but not for others, that the black players were targeted for missing their penalties. And at the time I was in the UK and I remember just thinking, if I had a son and he told me he wanted to play for England, because just to be clear, everybody thinks I was born in Jamaica, but I was born in the UK. So technically, you know, my child could also...
• 27:54
  want to play for England. And if he did, I will tell you for free that I would be hugely disappointed. So I'd love to kick off this conversation by asking, can you really be Black and English? Yes.
• 28:13
  The truth about it is, for me, there are so many different dimensions to this. And I feel like as a community, as a larger, the human race is where it all starts for me. And I feel like for too long,
• 28:29
  the powers that be, the people would sort of benefit from this social and racial construct. I've done whatever they could. And I feel like they've probably done it so far gone that they're trying to claim it back now. They're actually trying to stop it. You can see that there's almost this feeling that I think we've gone too far. Because like you said there, it's become a thing where it's grown so much legs that there is...
• 28:56
  really no way of clawing it back what is black what is white when the colors are not actually that like i can see your melanin skin my melanin skin we are brown all shades of it you know the so-called white man isn't white is it can be yellow or it could be you know it could be so many you've got different so such mix
• 29:21
  different amount of colors in the spectrum um but we we've created this thing where it was based on black or white good or evil it was always that simple and i feel like you've seen it even messi or ronaldo i feel like the human race has always been something where we always want to pin it down to those two things it's
• 29:40
  this or that christianity or islam like you have to you know move in one of those lines you have to uh form allegiance to one of them or you are basically you stand for something or fall for nothing in that in that way that they put it um but as you said one of the key things that i see as the problem is we as
• 30:06
  Black people, as they call us. I like to look at us as people. We are people and citizens of the world. Now, as you said, I was born in Nigeria. I moved out to London when I was 12 years old. Now, I've been in London for most of my life now, which is a large bit of a difference compared to my first 12 years in Nigeria. Coming from Nigeria, I didn't know that Black existed.
• 30:36
  because everything around me was all shades of brown. Like, I didn't even call it a color. It was just I think that's when you really realize that being international is really the key thing. I encourage everyone to travel.
• 30:51
  Because when you travel, you realize that you're just a little pea in the pod. You're nothing but a little granite bit of salt in the massive ocean. If you were playing football, would you be playing for England or would you be playing for Nigeria?
• 31:09
  And that's beautiful that you said that it's that has caused a lot of division in terms of I've always felt like you play for the place where you feel the most at peace and comfortable, like because to try to play in a situation where you feel like you want to impress. When you do it for others, you're already doing it wrong when you do it for yourself.
• 31:34
  you are at least taking a step where you don't have to really care about what other people say about it. So who would you pay for? For me personally, at this moment, it would be Nigeria. Yeah. It would be Nigeria simply because everything around me growing up, everything that I embodied, like from childhood in Nigeria to moving to London, it has always been something where it was, I...
• 32:03
  would have dreamt as a little kid of saying oh i want to be like jj okacha who was this legendary player from nigeria or kanu wanko like you know i would have said oh wow that would have been a cool thing because the little kid in me was running around doing that rather than thinking i would like to be like a david beckham or i would like to be i was always thinking about those people
• 32:22
  like that childhood dream of mine. And it goes in the same direction, as you said there, when it comes to like my kids. So I've got two kids. And if my son wanted to play for England, I would not stop him because I would ask him
• 32:39
  Why and what connection do you feel that makes you say you really want to play for England? There has to be the backstory. The backstory is what will withstand the test of time against any form of hatred. Take, for instance, Messi grew up in Spain. He moved to Spain at a very young age. Now, he won a lot of titles for Barcelona.
• 33:03
  He became the world's best player at Barcelona. But Messi, on the other hand, would go to Argentina, a country he loved so much.
• 33:12
  And he wasn't able to win anything. They had not won anything since 1986, I believe. So he was not able to win anything with them. And they hated him for it. They villainized him for it. They said he would never be a Maradona. He's not really take away the Argentinian nationality from him. He's no Argentinian. He's not. And this is a man who said no to Spain.
• 33:34
  He could have played for Spain. He went to Spain at such a young age, similar to myself, coming to England, that he could have played for Spain. But he chose to play for Argentina and his own nation villainized him for it up until he won. And they realized that, oh, this guy actually bleeds and he cares so much about wearing the shirt. And I think that's the key thing here is the shirt.
• 33:57
  So do you think that nations are only going to truly accept the others if you're winning? Absolutely. I feel like everyone who watches the nation watches from a different lens. And like you said, the general consensus is when you look different, you will never be accepted when you are not doing anything.
• 34:22
  something that makes the nation chair. If the, if the, if you're doing something that makes the nation boo, or you're going to get it 10 times worse than the person who looks just like them. And that's just the truth about it. And I feel like we've got to realize that, that it's, and that's something for us to even help our kids understand that the truth about it is, and it goes back to your first question to me, when you said English.
• 34:46
  I feel like English is an ethnicity, whereas being British is a nationality, if you understand what I'm trying to say. So like being English, and that's the argument that I feel like some of them try to make, but they're not very, very well versed with making it. Instead of saying, kick out the immigrants, we don't want them here. We don't, they're taking our jobs or they're doing this. I feel like the key thing for them to actually be saying is we want immigrants.
• 35:13
  our English ethnicity to be kept whole, you know, and we're not trying to be English. I'm trying to be, you know, I'm Yoruba from Nigeria. Like, so I would never want to be English, but I am British just by being, I'm going to bring Tammy to join this conversation. My darling, thank you very much. I like that you came ready and prepared with Jersey and everything, babes.
• 35:39
  Big up Argentina. Where are you joining us from, my darling? I am in Kingston, Jamaica.
• 35:50
  Amazing. Thank you for giving up a little bit of your Sunday. I was talking with Michael just about can you really be Black and English? You know, as we have seen, when the guys are, everybody's happy when they make a mistake or when they don't bring the trophy home. All of a sudden, the usual stereotypes and the racism is ready. It's on the tip of the tongue. I guess one thing I'd love.
• 36:18
  I'd love to ask you, Tammy, be Jamaican and seeing so many. Sorry, my darling. It's kind of breaking up in the notes. I'm sorry. Oh, Lord. Can you hear me now? Yes, I'm hearing you.
• 36:36
  So as a Jamaican, we have seen where there are lots of players who are playing for other teams who could have played for Jamaica. And so I guess the first thing for me to ask you is your stance on being Jamaican. Can you be born in a different country? Can you be raised in a different country and still claim Jamaican nationality? Of course. Of course. I think it comes down to,
• 37:05
  belonging. Football is not always about nationalism and it's not. Sorry, this is breaking up. We can hear you, Magellan. You said something? I can hear you. I'm sorry, I'm not hearing.
• 37:35
  Can I log out and come back in? It's breaking. Yeah, man, try. No problem. OK. So she'll be back. I think that it is really interesting because on the one hand, now we have such a higher number of players who are having this conundrum, right? They could play for different places.
• 38:03
  Now they say that a quarter of the players in the current World Cup are representing a country where they weren't born. But in 2006, that was less than 9%. So we see that the game is changing because obviously you're having a lot more fluidity, should we say. But then my question to you, Michael, is do you think that countries are changing their approach differently?
• 38:29
  I genuinely think you're totally right in actually seeing that little bit of analysis there and seeing what you just said. Countries are changing their approach and I feel like they're opening up. They're realizing that to actually make the sum of a whole, you need everything.
• 38:48
  And take, for instance, Asia, for instance. They've tried so hard that they keep trying to win this World Cup. They've done everything else but win the World Cup and win the 100 meters race. You know, like, so it's something. And they've realized that, wait a minute, it's that we've got to.
• 39:05
  take something from the rest of the world. Like you can't have a concoction or mixture without every shade in it, without every bit of humanity in it. So is it just more becoming modern form of colonization? When you say take things from other parts of the world, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.
• 39:25
  Um, and you'll, you'd be right to say that as in, there's a bit of, how do you call it? Uh, in this modern day, they say culture vulture in that sense. Like, it's like, so it's slightly different from colonization, but it's become more, oh, like if I'm seeing that that person is strong, I'm going to take some of that. Uh, add into our, you know, to our little bit of source there and create something better. I think they know what's good. These nations understand that they need that strength, you know, you know, they need that strength.
• 39:56
  It's funny because when you say Asia, I think of Zion Suzuki. So he is born in America. His dad is Ghanaian. His mother is Japanese and he was raised in Japan. And he has chosen to represent Japan.
• 40:11
  In 2024, they were playing Iran and Japan lost to Iran. And he was on the end of all of the racist abuse. His coach definitely stood by his side and all of the good stuff. But when you say Asia...
• 40:31
  someone like that combined. And my thing is, we acknowledge that countries are changing their approach in order to win, right? You mentioned that they're becoming more open. My question to both of you is, is that openness being reflected on day-to-day experience of people living in these countries? Tammy, do you want to go with that one first?
• 41:00
  No, I didn't hear what you guys were speaking about before. Sorry. So we were saying that football, the representation, so now they say about a quarter of people are playing for countries where they weren't born. Whereas in 2006...
• 41:15
  that was lessened. And so we see that there seems to be an openness in terms of allowing people to represent different countries where they weren't born. But my question is, do we think that the openness that we're seeing in an effort to win, right, because that's what it's coming down to, do we think that that is being reflected on people's day-to-day lived experience? Oh, um,
• 41:42
  So let me just answer the first question, because we are talking about belonging and it should not be one dimensional. Because, as I was saying, that football is not a nationalist sport. You know, someone can genuinely love two cultures and accept one. We are not asked to choose one parent if one parent was is Jamaican and another is English. Right. Right.
• 42:09
  so um you said that if it is showed in lived for people's lived sorry i'm gonna know wow one yeah so it's cracking up we can hear you clearly we can hear you we can hear you oh she's gone yeah tell me how you feel babes
• 42:31
  So you'd be right in everything you said, to be honest, Azien, and the question is valid about what are people feeling in the country in its own self. And this is the gap that needs to be closed in the sense that we're seeing, I think, France, for instance, America, you know, England, naturally, that are utilizing the very best of the world.
• 42:56
  and is the is their country is open to the rest of the world as their football clubs and football because take for instance the premier league is considered the best league in the world and when you see some of the players in it you're like oh wow that's an african player i think for like the first couple of days of the world cup it felt like every country that scored the goal was scored by a player of african descent
• 43:22
  And you felt like, wow, that's very interesting. And of course, you have the part of us that feels like, you know what? Imagine how powerful Africa would be, you know, for instance. Imagine how powerful, like, you know, the diaspora, Jamaica, Africa, like everything all together, you know, the Caribbean. If everything came together, which I do still feel like will be the end result. We are going in that direction.
• 43:52
  we will seize back what is rightfully ours but our governments are you know like the the country has to be ready to embrace those people you know the infrastructure is it's just not there that's the unfortunate thing it's just not there and for now
• 44:11
  that's what they're offering to these players. A lot of these players are being offered just better infrastructure, better careers, just better opportunities. Semenyo was playing for Ghana because he wasn't selected by England.
• 44:25
  you know, for many, many years, you know. And then when he got to the point where Ghana came for him, he was like, I love Ghana anyway. I grew up in a Ghanaian household. I'm English, but I love Ghana, you know, like he's. But and come the end of it, it's like England wanted him to change his mind. But he said, no, no, I'm sticking with Ghana because they came to me at my lowest.
• 44:47
  And sometimes, like Tammy said, it comes down to allegiance, that thing you feel from the bottom of your heart towards where you're playing for. If England treated you that way, then that's great. But sometimes some of those societies don't always appreciate the individual as much as they accept the dual belonging as much as the individual. You understand? That's true. Yeah.
• 45:16
  When something goes wrong, you hear, where are you really from? Who are you really aligned to? You understand? That Spain player, that Spain player with the Islam heritage. Lamine Yamal. Yes. Right. Yamal, yeah.
• 45:32
  But that uproar because he celebrated how he celebrated from his Islamic background. And because of that, it created an uproar. So we see where there's not really an acceptance from the society in that end. That's very true, Rapp.
• 45:51
  That's very true. I think it's a case of do you can play for Spain if you behave Spanish. And then the question becomes, what is Spanish? You know, can I be Spanish Islam? You know, can I be Spanish Christian? You know, like all are nothing. And it shouldn't be. Yeah. Yeah, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be.
• 46:14
  Do you think that the fact that fans can turn on their players so quickly, do you think that that affects the game? People are so fickle and they operate like they are the board of directors, especially for people in sports. And I think it does affect them. They're humans. Why wouldn't it? It does affect.
• 46:40
  That's very true. I think, like you said, social media has created a big problem in the world where everyone can now comment on everything and criticize everything. Because these people are public figures, you can have your comment, but not with such conviction where you think that you are the one who are suffering their consequences. Yes.
• 47:05
  If I'm saying. Absolutely. I think there's been some videos where you see of the person commenting on somebody being unfit. He sat down on his couch.
• 47:18
  completely overweight but he's writing a comment saying oh this guy's not fit and he shouldn't be playing and he's and then you're kind of like but how do you think that football still has that power to unify because you know this the things that we're discussing aren't new
• 47:41
  to football. We've seen bananas being thrown on pitches for years. We've seen the monkey chants. We've seen, you know, even before social media, I agree with you 100% that social media has created like an echo chamber so that these people essentially can find the drive and just get louder. And it's not a new problem. And so my question to you guys is, do you think that football,
• 48:03
  still holds that power to bring people together? Or ultimately, are we just freezing a little time that doesn't actually have knock-on effects when the trophy's been won, it's been raised, and then we've moved on to the next thing?
• 48:20
  Well, me and my girl brain, I don't follow football on a larger scale. So I can talk about Jamaica. You can see down Arima, right? So these people don't have passports and they have on Brazil jerseys parading around. So it does unify and it does translate things that languages can't. Do you understand? It does. I mean, it does unify. It definitely unifies us.
• 48:50
  I agree. Football is an extremely powerful tool for human unification. It truly does bring people together. I think the biggest problem in football is it's also a sport that has a lot of money in it. And for that reason, you have certain people, political figures,
• 49:09
  that try to, they use it for their own gain and to send messages. Some like what's happened at this World Cup with the Iranian footballers not being allowed to stay in certain countries. It's almost like you're sending a statement. It's like turned into a political battle.
• 49:24
  field rather than just football. I think that's where problems come in is when can we just focus on the football? Because the fans, they will all get along. It's just when you have like, you know, people just drop those little nuggets in there to say, oh, we don't really like Islamic people. I think just the other day they said Egypt and Iran, that there will be some games against them where there's going to be some...
• 49:46
  how do they call it, the homophobic protests against Egypt and Iran because they know that the Islamic countries are against homosexuality and things like the LGBTQ community and it's almost like, okay is this the forum to do it? Do you want to create division and a riot at the stadium? I understand the message but it's just, you know
• 50:18
  You were going to say something, Tammy? Okay. Yes, I was saying that it is super paradoxical because even though football is definitely unifying the world, at the same time, it's capable of exposing some of society's deepest division. You understand? That's a very nuanced point. That is definitely very, very true. That is very true.
• 50:46
  So we know who Tammy is supporting, Argentina. Who are you supporting, Michael? It's, I think the natural thing is, Messi is one that you want to see do very, very well, naturally. No, I actually started supporting Argentina because of Carlos Tevez. I love him. Here's what he was getting.
• 51:08
  I started watching the World Cup in 2010. And I think he made more of an impact in that World Cup than Messi. Even though Messi was...
• 51:18
  He scored two goals in that World Cup. Messi didn't score any. So I started supporting Argentina through him and then through a spouse. I decided, oh, if you support Argentina, you don't look for Messi. I said, all right. But me and my girl brain again, I stuck with Messi because apart from football, you have to rate how committed he is to his family and his relationship.
• 51:45
  I also love that ball team too. Oh, that's brilliant. I love the reasons, and I think that's quite powerful when you see the reasons. Yeah, like, you know, why people follow and support something. Like, for me personally, like, in terms of just being a football fan, I've tried to watch as many other games as possible just to try to understand who best. You've got England on one side where you just tend to just always
• 52:08
  wish the best for them. Senegal, you know, you've got African teams. We have nine out of ten that have now made it out of the group stage. So there's a lot to love about this World Cup. You know, even in parts, you want the host nations to do well. But it always comes down for me to Messi. Messi, I'm such a big fan of Messi that I always want him to do well. So it's like if anyone is to win, it's got to be Messi. And Messi has a team that has thrown him.
• 52:39
  Yeah, he has a team. On that note, for both of my last guests supporting Argentina, I look forward to seeing if you guys become victorious at the end of this. And thank you both for joining me and touching on these sensitive topics. I hope that you'll join me for another Sunday session. I look forward to it. Thank you for having me.
• 53:07
  So on that note, lovely people, thank you very much for joining me on this Sunday. I do think it is a particularly sensitive topic and there's no right or wrong, which is the beauty of these discussions. I think that as a society, we have forgotten that there is always space to agree to disagree. And there are points that people raise that honestly hadn't thought about regarding injury, regarding the fact that they need to protect their...
• 53:30
  their club careers and also what it really means to be considered from um but on that note i hope that you will continue to enjoy the world cup if you're not already subscribed to the podcast now is a good time to do so we release two episodes every week on babes how did you get
• 53:50
  get here about people's lives that they have chosen to live a life elsewhere and it's the idea that we can all learn and be entertained and equally inspired by people who have taken that jump to move from everything that they were comfortable with a lot of times a half way so I hope you enjoy the rest of your Sunday and I look forward to our next Sunday session