Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / KILLER-GRANNY-SUSPECT BLOODY AMBUSH 2 KANSAS MOMS; TASERS, BURNERS, BULLDOZER

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KILLER-GRANNY-SUSPECT BLOODY AMBUSH 2 KANSAS MOMS; TASERS, BURNERS, BULLDOZER · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news tonight Inside the
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Speaker 1: bloody ambush of two Kansas moms, says chilling new details
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Speaker 1: reveal how an evil mother in law lures the two
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Speaker 1: moms to their deaths using damning internet searches, burner phones,
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Speaker 1: stun guns, and a bulldozer.
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Speaker 2: Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace.
0:30
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you
0:33
Speaker 1: for being with us.
0:34
Speaker 3: Fifteen days after Veronica Butler and Jillian and Kelly are
0:36
Speaker 3: reported missing, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announces the
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Speaker 3: recovery of two bodies. The identity of the remains has
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Speaker 3: not been confirmed as of yet, but we do know
0:45
Speaker 3: the remains have been sent to the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's
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Speaker 3: Office for identification as well as the cause and manner
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Speaker 3: of death.
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Speaker 1: All that, all that, burner phones, taser, stune guns, bullets, weapons,
1:00
Speaker 1: a bulldozer, damning internet searches. Why granny plots to kill
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Speaker 1: her own daughter in law so she could have custody
1:13
Speaker 1: of the grandchildren? Really? Yes, that's what official documents are
1:21
Speaker 1: revealing tonight Inside the investigation.
1:24
Speaker 2: But first, how did it all unfold?
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Speaker 3: Listen the planned meeting place for Veronica Butler to pick
1:30
Speaker 3: up her children. Was a closed gas station near the
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Speaker 3: intersection of Oklahoma State Highway ninety five and Rhodel. The
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Speaker 3: area is flat and desolate. There are no trees or
1:38
Speaker 3: homes nearby, as well as no traffic cameras. This is
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Speaker 3: where Melissa and Joey Padilla, relatives of Veronica Butler, found
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Speaker 3: her car after the mom didn't arrive at a birthday
1:47
Speaker 3: party for one of her children. The car was abandoned
1:50
Speaker 3: and there were pools of blood nearby, so they called police.
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Speaker 3: Investigators now say they believe Butler and Jillian and Kelly
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Speaker 3: were lured to the location, arriving around nine forty am.
2:00
Speaker 3: Besides the pools of blood, officers found Butler's glasses on
2:03
Speaker 3: the ground near a broken hammer. Kelly's purse was also found.
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Speaker 3: Inside was a gun magazine, but no weapon. Police say
2:11
Speaker 3: the women were forced into another vehicle. The women's phone
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Speaker 3: stop sending signals at nine forty two am and have
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Speaker 3: not been recovered.
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Speaker 1: Only that official court document seemingly reveal that this was
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Speaker 1: not their first attempt on the young mom with me
2:27
Speaker 1: it all start panel to make sense of what we
2:29
Speaker 1: are learning. Stunning and chilling details emerging for a straight
2:34
Speaker 1: out to Lauren Conlin, investigative journalist's host off the Outlawyer podcast. Lauren,
2:40
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You've been on the
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Speaker 1: case from the very beginning. I can't believe what I
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Speaker 1: am seeing in this affidavit. A granny, a killer granny.
2:51
Speaker 1: Suspect uses a bulldozer guns, Lauren, what's happening?
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Speaker 4: This is so tragic. It came out in these affidavits
3:02
Speaker 4: that this was not the first attempt to take Veronica
3:05
Speaker 4: Butler's life. They were planning to do something in February
3:09
Speaker 4: where an anvil would go through her windshield, as this
3:13
Speaker 4: was very common in the area. They would fall off
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Speaker 4: construction trucks, and.
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Speaker 1: They believed, Okay, please tell me you aren't somehow a
3:23
Speaker 1: victim of Stockholm syndrome because anvils don't just fall out
3:28
Speaker 1: of the air into people's cars. I don't care where
3:31
Speaker 1: it is, I mean, hold on right there. Cheryl McCollum
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Speaker 1: is joining me, founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute,
3:37
Speaker 1: forensics Expert. As a matter of fact, she's joining me
3:40
Speaker 1: right now from her squad car. Cheryl, host of a
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Speaker 1: Hitting You podcast, Zone seven. I know maybe in crazy
3:50
Speaker 1: Granny's world. An anvil falling from the sky or off
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Speaker 1: a truck into the young mom's car sounds reasonable.
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Speaker 2: It's it's not, Cheryl. It's not reasonable.
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Speaker 5: It is not reasonable.
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Speaker 6: You're talking about something that is so heavy there's no
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Speaker 6: way it's going to fall off a truck, and if
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Speaker 6: it does, it's simply going to land three feet onto
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Speaker 6: the pavement, not up five to six feet through her windshield.
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Speaker 6: So again, when you're talking about plotting and planting a
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Speaker 6: murder and your baseline is wiley coyote, you've got problems
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Speaker 6: from the get go. This was asinine at best.
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Speaker 1: Can I ask you something, Cheryl McCollum. I know you're
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Speaker 1: comparing them to a and their plan to a wily
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Speaker 1: coyote plot. But these two women are dead, six children
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Speaker 1: between them, and I don't care what anybody says, including
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Speaker 1: a shrink that will tell me how wrong I am.
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Speaker 1: There is nothing that can replace your mother.
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Speaker 2: Nothing, Amen.
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Speaker 1: And it may be a far f fetched plan, it
5:01
Speaker 1: may be, but these ladies are dead. Not just the
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Speaker 1: young mom who is her right there, just going to
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Speaker 1: throw a birthday party for her children. That's Veronica Butler,
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Speaker 1: just twenty seven years old. But then you've got the
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Speaker 1: other lady, the church secretary, preacher wife. She's dead too,
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Speaker 1: Jilly and Kelly in her thirties, the prime of her life.
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Speaker 1: She was just doing a ride along to facilitate the
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Speaker 1: visitation and the pickup of mom's babies, six children without
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Speaker 1: a mom. So I don't care how zany their plot is.
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Speaker 1: There were pools of blood left around this young mom's
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Speaker 1: car because in my mind of.
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Speaker 2: Killer Granny, may she wrot in hell.
5:47
Speaker 1: And let me point out, as Kelly Hyman will tell
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Speaker 1: me pretty quickly, they're innocent until proven guilty. And you
5:54
Speaker 1: can all quit telling me that on Twitter. I know that,
5:57
Speaker 1: I know they're not guilty yet, but I guarantee you
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Speaker 1: they will be because of a track A mile wide.
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Speaker 2: Isn't that riot, Lauren Comlin a mile wide?
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Speaker 1: Tell me about the evidence we're learning out of this
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Speaker 1: warrant right here.
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Speaker 4: Okay, So this is crazy. So first and foremost, they
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Speaker 4: got a search warrant on I believe it was March
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Speaker 4: thirty first for Tiffany Adams's phone. So they searched on
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Speaker 4: her phone, and they find searches that read taser pain level,
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Speaker 4: where to buy a gun at different gunshops in the area,
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Speaker 4: and then where to get prepaid cell phones, and then
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Speaker 4: how to get someone out of their house. Now in
6:41
Speaker 4: the meantime, my boyfriend.
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Speaker 1: Le, you know what, you're just like spouting all this
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Speaker 1: damning information like it's a fire hydrant, Lauren Comlin, too much,
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Speaker 1: too fast.
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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm drinking from the fire hydrant here.
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Speaker 1: So you said, look the pain level of a taser.
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Speaker 1: That was the mother in law's to say, Google search,
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Speaker 1: she searched the pay level of a taser?
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Speaker 4: She did, she searched.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I got to go now to an eminent guest
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Speaker 1: joining me, doctor Kendall Crowns. He is the chief medical
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Speaker 1: Examiner in Terrance County. That's Fort Worth near Dallas Lecturer University,
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Speaker 1: Texan Christian University Medical School, and he is joining us
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Speaker 1: right now from his office at the Medical Examiners. Doctor Crowns,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I had a good
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Speaker 1: friend at CNN who actually tasered himself, and a good
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Speaker 1: friend at Court TV that followed up on it to
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Speaker 1: make sure it really hurt.
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Speaker 2: God rest his soul, Michael Christian.
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Speaker 1: So doctor Kendle Crowns, tell me how a taser works
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Speaker 1: and this is what was the plan. This is the
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Speaker 1: plan to use on two unarmed moms. How does it
8:01
Speaker 1: work and how badly does it hurt? Doctor Crowns.
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Speaker 7: So, conductive electronic devices like taser work by injecting prongs
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Speaker 7: into your skin and then using these skins moisture to
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Speaker 7: conduct electricity across it and then send a large amount
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Speaker 7: of electricity into your body, basically shocking you. The shock
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Speaker 7: itself causes a tremendous amount of pain, causes you to
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Speaker 7: spasm and then collapse.
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Speaker 1: See that's why I have to work with you so
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Speaker 1: much before I could put you on the stand. Conductive
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Speaker 1: electronic device? What are you talking about? Can you dumb
8:43
Speaker 1: me down for me? Please just say it? Regular people
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Speaker 1: talk how a taser works and the amount of pain.
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Speaker 1: What can we compare it.
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Speaker 7: To conductive electronic devices? Is what a taser is? Taser
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Speaker 7: themselves prefer you call it a conductive electronic device, because
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Speaker 7: not all conductive electronic devices are tasers. It's like a
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Speaker 7: xerox machine is a copier, et cetera. So it is
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Speaker 7: basically electricity being forced into your body, high amounts of electricity.
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Speaker 7: It'd be like you putting a fork into a wall socket.
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Speaker 7: You get the same kind of experience from that, except
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Speaker 7: the wall socket doesn't cause as much electricity to go
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Speaker 7: through you as a taser does.
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Speaker 1: As a general rule, a taser start with the baseline
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Speaker 1: a fifty thousand vaults of electricity. Fifty thousand volts of electricity.
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Speaker 1: What does that mean, doctor Kendall Crowns.
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Speaker 7: That's the high amount of electricity. It's higher than basically
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Speaker 7: your standard current in your house. So it's a large
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Speaker 7: amount of electricity being put into your body all at once.
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Speaker 1: Just think about it. Think about it, Cheryl McCollum, This
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Speaker 1: evil mother in law was prepared to use fifty thousand
10:02
Speaker 1: vaults of electricity minimum on the victims, in this case,
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Speaker 1: two unarmed women. She didn't care if she caused that
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Speaker 1: amount of pain, and Cheryl, think about it. Forget the taser.
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Speaker 1: They were gunned down. I think they were shot dead.
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Speaker 6: But let's talk even more basic in the beginning. You've
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Speaker 6: got four people and two women. It doesn't take a
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Speaker 6: taser to control them. If you ambushed two unsuspecting victims
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Speaker 6: with four people, you're gonna be able to control them
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Speaker 6: fairly easily.
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Speaker 5: I believe that the stun gun was for torture.
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Speaker 2: Wow, I hadn't even thought of that. Crime stories with
10:52
Speaker 2: Nancy Grace joining me right now.
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Speaker 1: Kelly Hyman, trial lawyer and now civil lawyer joining us
11:02
Speaker 1: out of Miami. Also legal analyst and host of Once
11:06
Speaker 1: Upon a Crime in Hollywood. Kelly Hymen, I mean, this gang,
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Speaker 1: which they call themselves God's Misfits, have left a.
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Speaker 2: Trail a mile wide.
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Speaker 1: The State's going to have a field day with this.
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Speaker 8: This is a horrible story for these young kids to
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Speaker 8: lose their mother.
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Speaker 9: And we always when we look at things is why
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Speaker 9: do people do this? What was their motive behind this?
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Speaker 9: What was their reasoning behind this? That's key, And allegedly
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Speaker 9: they were in some big family dispute, bitter dispute that
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Speaker 9: left these beautiful kids without a mother. Ultimately, Nancy, as
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Speaker 9: you said, you are innocent until proven guilty. But there
11:49
Speaker 9: is allegedly a lot of evidence coming out that's going
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Speaker 9: to make a strong case for the state.
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Speaker 1: I need to bring up the innocent until proven guilty part.
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Speaker 2: What more do we know?
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Speaker 1: Oh, guys straight out to Lauren Colin, guns, bulldozers, tasers,
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Speaker 1: stun guns.
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Speaker 2: What more do we know, Lauren?
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Speaker 1: And all of this is to take out two innocent,
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Speaker 1: unarmed mothers.
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Speaker 4: Yes, let me stop you. There have been no guns found,
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Speaker 4: just stun guns. So this is actually really interesting, and
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Speaker 4: I'm a bit confused. I came across I think it
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Speaker 4: was yesterday or the day before. It was on an
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Speaker 4: outlet called the Oklahomaan, and you have to pay for
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Speaker 4: a lot of these articles. I did not pay, but
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Speaker 4: I did find a little snippet where the medical examiner said,
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Speaker 4: I don't believe they were a shot. And I'm going
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Speaker 4: through all of these affidavits, the arrest affadavits, all the
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Speaker 4: probable cause, and I don't see any guns. And as
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Speaker 4: Dave Max said, you know, Jillian Kelly had a pistol
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Speaker 4: magazine in her purse, but there were no guns. So
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Speaker 4: all we have here is burner phones and stun guns.
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Speaker 4: And then we have the equipment that I was going
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Speaker 4: to get to. So Tad Cullum, Tiffany's boyfriend, he rented
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Speaker 4: some land about eight miles away from where their vehicle
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Speaker 4: was initially found Veronica and Gillian's, and he rented equipment
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Speaker 4: like bulldozers and all these these names that my son
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Speaker 4: would know, skid steers. He'd be much better than I
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Speaker 4: am at this and he ends up digging a hole
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Speaker 4: in this property and then covering it with hay. And
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Speaker 4: this area is the last place where the women's phones
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Speaker 4: were actually pinged this area, and the property owner, I
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Speaker 4: believe his name is Jamie Beasley, he had no idea
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Speaker 4: what was going on. So when authorities, you know, send
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Speaker 4: all those trucks to get to get the women, to
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Speaker 4: get the bodies, once they get the tip, he's crying.
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Speaker 4: He's like, oh my gosh, I had no idea and
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Speaker 4: just in complete and utter shock. So I think it's
13:55
Speaker 4: safe to say we really don't know the manner of
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Speaker 4: death that or how these women died.
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Speaker 1: Joining me, Cheryl McCollum, founder director, Cold Case Research Institute
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Speaker 1: and forensics expert. Cheryl, I can see all the digital
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Speaker 1: fingerprint footprint adding up placing the moms at this location
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Speaker 1: and coincidentally the same location where the burner phones were
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Speaker 1: turned off.
14:22
Speaker 2: But I want to talk about.
14:23
Speaker 1: The mag the magazine, the gun magazine found in one
14:26
Speaker 1: of the victims purses. There's no indication that either of
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Speaker 1: the victims had a gun. And when I say a magazine,
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Speaker 1: I'm talking about a mag not a clip. A mag
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Speaker 1: feeds arounds into the gun chamber as it's being fired.
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Speaker 1: So what do you make of a mag being found?
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Speaker 6: Not verified? A lot of information. They're playing this close
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Speaker 6: to the vest, which they should. But let's say you
14:53
Speaker 6: are going with somebody to beat you know, ex family
14:57
Speaker 6: members that they've been fighting with for nine years. Maybe
15:00
Speaker 6: somebody gave her something to, you know, protect herself. We
15:04
Speaker 6: don't know if this was her, you know, potential partible
15:08
Speaker 6: weapon or perpetrate.
15:10
Speaker 5: We don't know yet. And you know, all we do
15:13
Speaker 5: know is.
15:14
Speaker 6: There pools of blood at the seat, broken hammer. So
15:18
Speaker 6: was somebody shot, was somebody hit in the head, blood
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Speaker 6: force trauma?
15:22
Speaker 5: We don't know yet.
15:23
Speaker 1: Guys, we are learning that a minor, we believe it
15:28
Speaker 1: to be a teen girl.
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Speaker 2: Has turned informant.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to this.
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Speaker 10: The teenager told police that she had heard conversation among
15:38
Speaker 10: the adults that Adam's grandchildren were at risk when they
15:42
Speaker 10: were with Butler. She told investigators that Adams had provided
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Speaker 10: Burner phones so that personal devices were not needed to communicate.
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Speaker 10: The girl said she had seen two of the phones
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Speaker 10: charging on her mother's nightstand the day before the murders.
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Speaker 10: Adam's boyfriend column forty three, had asked the owner of
16:01
Speaker 10: the property he rented if he could do some work there.
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Speaker 2: With his kids.
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Speaker 10: Seer a kind of bulldozer. According to the owner's conversation
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Speaker 10: with police, Colum reportedly said he wanted to cut down
16:12
Speaker 10: a tree, remove a stump, and bury some concrete. The
16:16
Speaker 10: teen said she heard that her mother and stepfather block
16:19
Speaker 10: the road, diverting the women to where the others were waiting.
16:23
Speaker 10: When asked why Kelly had to die, her mother reportedly
16:27
Speaker 10: said because Kelly supported Butler. She wasn't innocent. The child
16:31
Speaker 10: asked Cora Twombly if they had put the bodies in
16:34
Speaker 10: a well. She was told something like.
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Speaker 1: That, Wow, it's always difficult to put a child on
16:41
Speaker 1: the stand during a jury trial, but sometimes you have to.
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Speaker 1: This teen girl revealing so much of what was going
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Speaker 1: on in the home before the murders. In the home
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Speaker 1: of the suspects, straight back out to Lauren Colin, joining
16:57
Speaker 1: US investigative journalist and host of The Outline. So, a
17:01
Speaker 1: skid steer is a kind of bulldozer. Where were the
17:06
Speaker 1: two moms bodies found?
17:09
Speaker 4: So they were found by a dam in that rented
17:13
Speaker 4: area of the property. So I'm assuming that they were
17:18
Speaker 4: somewhat covered by this hay and the fresh dirt. I
17:21
Speaker 4: believe they called it the soil, and they were easy
17:25
Speaker 4: to find. I also I want to point something out
17:28
Speaker 4: as well, Nancy. Her the witness, Cora told her or
17:34
Speaker 4: her daughter, whoever the witness was, that things didn't go
17:38
Speaker 4: according to plan. This mission did not go according to plan.
17:41
Speaker 4: So I don't know exactly what that means, but I
17:45
Speaker 4: have a hunch it has something to do with a
17:48
Speaker 4: possible fitth suspect that hasn't been arrested.
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Speaker 2: But that's just my team joining me right now.
17:53
Speaker 1: Former US Marshall Service International Investigations Branch, author of Flying
17:59
Speaker 1: Solo on Amazon.
18:01
Speaker 2: Irvbrandt joining US Irvbrandt.
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Speaker 1: Did you hear what Lauren Colin just said, and I've
18:06
Speaker 1: read it in the official court dogs that this gang
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Speaker 1: God's misfits said they were on a mission. They call
18:18
Speaker 1: murdering these two young moms a mission?
18:22
Speaker 2: What a mission from hell?
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Speaker 11: That's exactly what it was, Nancy. These people are obviously deranged.
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Speaker 11: They're not criminal masterminds. They had a previous murder plan
18:35
Speaker 11: that didn't come didn't pan out. Then they go into
18:39
Speaker 11: this elaborate plan using stun guns and a bulldozer, but
18:46
Speaker 11: they leave a trail a mile wide for police investigators
18:50
Speaker 11: to follow. Nancy, I've never seen anything like this. They
18:55
Speaker 11: might as well have written out a confession and signed
18:58
Speaker 11: it and sent it to the police Earlier.
19:01
Speaker 1: I think we heard Cheryl McCollum compared it to Wiley
19:05
Speaker 1: Coyote their plot, and I admonished her because we've got
19:09
Speaker 1: two dead moms. But actually it does sound like something
19:13
Speaker 1: out of the Apple Dumpling Gang, except nobody ever died
19:16
Speaker 1: in those movies where they've been watching way too many
19:20
Speaker 1: movies with the burner phones and the rendezvous point and
19:25
Speaker 1: the bull I mean, how much more obvious can it
19:28
Speaker 1: be or a brand than to rent a bulldozer or
19:32
Speaker 1: to bring over your bulldozer Mancia.
19:35
Speaker 11: I mean, I can't even give you a reasonable explanation
19:39
Speaker 11: for their line of thinking of This is just not
19:43
Speaker 11: It's like Cheryl Max said, it's something out of a
19:47
Speaker 11: cartoon trying to drop an acme anvil on their head.
19:54
Speaker 11: I don't know where these people came up with their ideas.
19:56
Speaker 11: When they started researching it online, bounced to you know
20:01
Speaker 11: someone saying, well, I want to poison someone. Then doing it,
20:05
Speaker 11: you know, researching and on their computer, then ordering poison
20:09
Speaker 11: off of Amazon.
20:11
Speaker 2: To carry out the murder.
20:13
Speaker 11: I can't give you an explanation, Nancy, I'm sorry.
20:17
Speaker 3: The team told police that she was told that her
20:19
Speaker 3: mother and stepfather would be gone that Saturday. When the
20:22
Speaker 3: team woke up, she was told they were going to
20:24
Speaker 3: be on a mission, and as she was told, the
20:27
Speaker 3: Twembleys were not home when she woke up around ten am.
20:30
Speaker 2: She says.
20:30
Speaker 3: The couple came back around noon in their pickup and
20:33
Speaker 3: a flatbed pickup owned by a relative. The teen says
20:36
Speaker 3: she was told to clean the interior of the Chevrolet pickup.
20:39
Speaker 3: When she asked what had happened, she was told the
20:41
Speaker 3: meetings had not gone as plan, but that they would
20:44
Speaker 3: not have to worry about Butler again. At the same
20:47
Speaker 3: time that the twembles arrived home, Tiffany Adams went to
20:50
Speaker 3: pick up her grandchildren at the home of the other
20:52
Speaker 3: couple who hosted God's Misfits meetings.
20:55
Speaker 1: The affidavit said, joining me in all Star panel, Cheryl McCollum,
20:58
Speaker 1: did you hear that.
20:59
Speaker 6: They their own vehicle, They used their own computer, They
21:03
Speaker 6: use their own cell phones to send text message. They
21:06
Speaker 6: spoke in front of witnesses again for four people to
21:10
Speaker 6: plot and plan, they made such severe mistakes.
21:15
Speaker 5: I agree with her.
21:16
Speaker 6: They might as well have just done a confession from
21:18
Speaker 6: the get go, because it was obvious who did it.
21:21
Speaker 6: You and I talked todaycy about you know, the victims
21:24
Speaker 6: left a town of twelve hundred people to go to
21:27
Speaker 6: a town of two hundred and eighty one people.
21:29
Speaker 5: Your respect pool was people right off the bat.
21:32
Speaker 1: According to the witness that has emerged, this teen girl
21:37
Speaker 1: was told the mother, her I guess boyfriend, and two
21:44
Speaker 1: others who claim to be quote God's misfits were on
21:48
Speaker 1: a quote mission I'm reading from the affidavit. They were
21:52
Speaker 1: going to be on a mission. She woke up around
21:56
Speaker 1: ten am. They all came back around noon, the defendants
22:03
Speaker 1: in a pickup and a flatbed owned by a relative,
22:07
Speaker 1: and she, the teen girl, was told to clean the
22:11
Speaker 1: interior of the Chevrolet pickup.
22:14
Speaker 2: What does that mean to me?
22:15
Speaker 1: That means that at least one of these mothers was
22:18
Speaker 1: transported to a burial site in the Chevy pickup. When
22:23
Speaker 1: the girl asked what happened, she was told things had
22:26
Speaker 1: quote not gone as planned, but they would never have
22:30
Speaker 1: to worry about Butler, that being.
22:32
Speaker 2: Twenty seven year old mom Veronica Butler.
22:35
Speaker 1: Again, at the same time, Tiffany Adams goes to pick
22:40
Speaker 1: up the grandchildren elsewhere another cope, another couple's home who
22:45
Speaker 1: hosted God's Misfits meetings.
22:48
Speaker 2: What does that say to me?
22:50
Speaker 1: That tells me out to Kelly Hyman, a veteran trial lawyer,
22:55
Speaker 1: that there are other people, the ones that were babysitting
22:58
Speaker 1: the children during all this, that knew about the plan
23:02
Speaker 1: and they are going to be states witnesses along with
23:05
Speaker 1: this team girl. As if I don't have enough information
23:08
Speaker 1: and enough evidence anyway, now these babysitters, the other God's Misfits,
23:16
Speaker 1: they're going to be witnesses or they could always be
23:19
Speaker 1: charged for aiding and a betting, and I don't think
23:22
Speaker 1: they want to go to the pen for that.
23:23
Speaker 8: I think Nancy, we are just at the tip of
23:25
Speaker 8: the iceberg on this, and you bring up a really
23:28
Speaker 8: good point. Yes, So if people overheard this, they could
23:31
Speaker 8: potentially be the state's witness and what that means is
23:34
Speaker 8: they will testify in the trial of saying what they've
23:37
Speaker 8: heard or potentially if they could potentially be charged with
23:41
Speaker 8: aiding and betting and assisting in this in fact, if
23:44
Speaker 8: they don't, if they help assist with.
23:47
Speaker 9: This murder and stuff like that. So it'll be interesting
23:50
Speaker 9: to see what transpires in the coming next days and
23:54
Speaker 9: who turns as a state witness or potentially are there
23:57
Speaker 9: going to be additional charges for people who will or
24:00
Speaker 9: heard stuff and were potentially involved in this as well.
24:03
Speaker 1: Back to doctor Kendall Crowns joining us out of Chartt
24:06
Speaker 1: County for were from the Medical Examiner's Office DOTR. Crown's again,
24:09
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. We're trying to determine
24:13
Speaker 1: whether the manner of death was shooting or stabbing. I
24:19
Speaker 1: know the bodies had been buried haphazardly, would you be
24:25
Speaker 1: able to tell and how the manner and cause of death?
24:28
Speaker 7: Certainly you'd be able to determine the cause of death
24:31
Speaker 7: based on the injury patterns even though they had been buried.
24:34
Speaker 7: It won't take away the damage to the body, especially
24:39
Speaker 7: to the skeletal system kind of, and then the manner
24:42
Speaker 7: of death would be fairly easy. The fact that they've
24:45
Speaker 7: been buried out in the middle of nowhere, They're obviously
24:48
Speaker 7: been killed, so it's going to be a homicide. So
24:52
Speaker 7: determining between gunshot wounds, stabbings or beatings. It would just
24:55
Speaker 7: be looking at the injury patterns on the body based
24:59
Speaker 7: on the information you already had, pools of blood, broken hammer,
25:02
Speaker 7: the fact that they were talking about using an anvil
25:05
Speaker 7: in the first place makes me feel like they've probably
25:08
Speaker 7: beaten these individuals to death using a hammer after they
25:11
Speaker 7: stunned them.
25:12
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, doctor Kimmel Crowns, I understand what you're saying. Now.
25:18
Speaker 1: You believe there's a very strong potential of the two
25:21
Speaker 1: victims being beaten dead with a hammer.
25:25
Speaker 2: And why do you say that?
25:26
Speaker 7: Because there's a broken hammer at the scene, there's pools
25:29
Speaker 7: of blood, and they have been talking about doing blunt
25:33
Speaker 7: force trauma to the individuals in the first place using
25:35
Speaker 7: an anvil, So it doesn't sound like they had planned
25:38
Speaker 7: to use guns all along, that they kind of planned
25:41
Speaker 7: to use blunt force trauma. So it makes me think
25:44
Speaker 7: that they use the stun guns to kind of subdue
25:46
Speaker 7: them and then just beat them to death with a hammer.
25:49
Speaker 1: You know, doctor Kendall Crowns, I was thinking gun because
25:54
Speaker 1: of the amount of blood pools of blood there, and
25:58
Speaker 1: I attributed the hammer handle to breaking the windshield because
26:05
Speaker 1: a witness stated she had driven by. It was around
26:09
Speaker 1: ten am. The mom's left for their journey of forty
26:13
Speaker 1: five minute drive around nine am, and at ten am
26:18
Speaker 1: a female witness drives by and sees their vehicle and
26:22
Speaker 1: sees a window on the driver's side bust it out. Now,
26:27
Speaker 1: I attributed the discovery of the hammer handle to breaking
26:33
Speaker 1: out the window, but your theory makes a lot more
26:37
Speaker 1: sense to me. Plus, I'm not hearing about any guns
26:40
Speaker 1: being registered to the defendants, although I find that really
26:44
Speaker 1: hard to believe. But that said, what about it, Cheryl McCollum.
26:48
Speaker 6: As to why the glasses will be on the ground
26:50
Speaker 6: large pools of blood? Nobody in the vicinity heard a
26:54
Speaker 6: gunshot it also, would you know? To me goes back
26:57
Speaker 6: to my theory. They were tortured. This was anger. She
27:03
Speaker 6: didn't look up stundum, she looked up the pain level.
27:08
Speaker 5: This was very personal.
27:10
Speaker 6: They have been fighting for almost a decade over those
27:14
Speaker 6: children and they were attacked. I'm going to say it again,
27:18
Speaker 6: this didn't take four people. This was a deliberate gang ambush.
27:26
Speaker 1: Killer Granny's suspects, bloody ambush on two unarmed Kansas moms
27:32
Speaker 1: on their way to a children's birthday party, and they
27:36
Speaker 1: apparently used tasers, burner phones, even a bulldozer to affect
27:42
Speaker 1: their plan. Joining me an all star panel. You were
27:45
Speaker 1: just hearing Cheryl McCollum. But now to Lauren Conlin, the
27:48
Speaker 1: investigative journalist's host of the Outlier podcast. I want to
27:52
Speaker 1: hear what you have to say about the use of
27:55
Speaker 1: the hammer as the murder weapon. But also I found
27:59
Speaker 1: some thing buried in the affidavit and I found this
28:04
Speaker 1: really interesting. I want everybody on the panel to jump in.
28:07
Speaker 1: We find out that three prepaid cellular phones were purchased
28:11
Speaker 1: from Walmart in Oklahoma back on Feb thirteen. That's how
28:16
Speaker 1: long they've been planning this since Feb thirteen. This is
28:20
Speaker 1: what I found really interesting. All three of the burner
28:23
Speaker 1: phones were powered on and access cellular network for the
28:29
Speaker 1: first time at Colum's residents. So Ellie law enforcement can
28:39
Speaker 1: identify the first time these idiots turned on the burner
28:45
Speaker 1: phone is basically inside their own home.
28:49
Speaker 2: Ding dong.
28:50
Speaker 1: They couldn't figure out that they are leaving a digital trail.
28:54
Speaker 1: They're turning on the cellular phones that were used to
28:59
Speaker 1: orchestrate this double murder. They turn it on for the
29:03
Speaker 1: first time in or near their own home. I mean,
29:09
Speaker 1: they need to go back and watch Ocean's eleven all
29:12
Speaker 1: over again.
29:13
Speaker 2: Lauren Colin, you were jumping in. What were you saying?
29:16
Speaker 6: Well, I can.
29:17
Speaker 4: Provide some context to this as well, because while they
29:20
Speaker 4: appear to be extremely dumb criminals, obviously, I think there's
29:24
Speaker 4: an element to this, right, the farm element. I don't
29:28
Speaker 4: think that it's out of the ordinary that he would
29:31
Speaker 4: rent farm equipment or dig holes xyz. But using your
29:36
Speaker 4: own cell phones and turning these cell phones, these burner
29:39
Speaker 4: phones on at your own house. This goes to the
29:42
Speaker 4: fact that Tiffany Adams is actually very connected in that town.
29:47
Speaker 4: She runs and is responsible for the Simmern County GOP.
29:52
Speaker 4: She's their chair, she was a former school board chair.
29:56
Speaker 4: She knows the sheriff's office. I mean, I think there
29:59
Speaker 4: was a cool where she had said, you know, I
30:01
Speaker 4: know the path the judge takes to work. She knows everybody,
30:05
Speaker 4: and I believe that she thinks that she is untouchable
30:09
Speaker 4: and people don't necessarily want to talk. The one judge
30:13
Speaker 4: that did speak, he was forced to resign the next day.
30:16
Speaker 4: So it's really interesting and I think that this woman,
30:19
Speaker 4: in particular, Tiffany Adams, she holds a type of power
30:22
Speaker 4: that we are just going to be learning about.
30:25
Speaker 1: Well, you know what that calls for a change of venue.
30:28
Speaker 2: That won't be hard.
30:30
Speaker 12: You know.
30:30
Speaker 1: I'm still looking very carefully at this, Adma, David, and
30:34
Speaker 1: I want everybody to weigh in on this. The whole
30:38
Speaker 1: dug about two hundred yards below of dam fell back
30:43
Speaker 1: in and covered with Hey, I mean you could probably
30:47
Speaker 1: see that with a drive over from a helicopter. For
30:50
Speaker 1: Pete's sake, did they not think cops are going to
30:54
Speaker 1: find that? I mean, our brandt. I've seen many many homicides.
31:00
Speaker 1: I've investigated many, tried many, covered many. But this is
31:05
Speaker 1: a plethora a Pandora's box of evidence.
31:09
Speaker 11: Nancy, That's exactly right. Like you, I've been doing this
31:13
Speaker 11: all my adult life, and I have never seen a
31:19
Speaker 11: case probably easier to solve, easier to prove. When we
31:25
Speaker 11: take it to you, as the prosecuting attorney, you'd look
31:31
Speaker 11: at us and say, you've got to be kidding me.
31:34
Speaker 11: You know, I can't believe this. Whereas did they videotape
31:39
Speaker 11: themselves committing the crime? Did they post it on social media.
31:43
Speaker 11: They did just about everything else imaginable, you know, to
31:47
Speaker 11: say they did it, the confessions got to be forthcoming.
31:51
Speaker 11: I would imagine the.
31:53
Speaker 1: Police crime stories with Nancy Grace joining me, high profile lawyer,
32:09
Speaker 1: very familiar with the case. Kelly, I want you to
32:12
Speaker 1: take a listen to this.
32:14
Speaker 10: The motive, according to investigators, is custody of Butler's two children.
32:18
Speaker 10: A custody battle has gone on for more than five years.
32:22
Speaker 10: Father wrangler Rickman, Tiffany Adams's son, was awarded custody of
32:26
Speaker 10: the children, but Rickman was confirmed to being in a
32:29
Speaker 10: rehabilitation facility in Oklahoma City at the time of the murders.
32:34
Speaker 10: For Veronica, Butler's custody arrangement allowed her supervised visitation with
32:39
Speaker 10: her children every Saturday, and reportedly, according to Butler's attorney,
32:44
Speaker 10: she was likely to be granted unsupervised visitation during an
32:48
Speaker 10: upcoming hearing the Affadavid states that Adams vehemently opposed this
32:53
Speaker 10: and went to great links to plan and purchase items
32:56
Speaker 10: used in Butler and Kelly's murders. It continues Adam, Cullam, Cole,
33:02
Speaker 10: and Cora were willing to kidnap and murder two victims
33:06
Speaker 10: to limit visitation for Butler.
33:08
Speaker 1: And isn't it true guys who were talking about Adams
33:11
Speaker 1: were talking about Tiffany Michelle Adams age fifty four, who
33:15
Speaker 1: is the alleged evil mother in law.
33:19
Speaker 2: Her who plotted this.
33:20
Speaker 1: It seems to think that she's the political boss of
33:23
Speaker 1: the county. I got needs for her political boss or no,
33:27
Speaker 1: she's going down because of her own actions, and its
33:32
Speaker 1: seemingly straight back out to Lauren Colin or anybody. Cheryl McCollum,
33:36
Speaker 1: you may know the answer to this. It seems as
33:39
Speaker 1: if earlier there were plans to take out a judge.
33:45
Speaker 1: Another relative was concerned about the custody issue and was
33:50
Speaker 1: told that no need for concern't they would not have
33:54
Speaker 1: to worry about the custody battle much longer because and
33:57
Speaker 1: I'm quoting from the affidavit, Adam, that's the grandma, the
34:01
Speaker 1: mother in law quote had it under control that she
34:05
Speaker 1: knew the path the judge walked to work and would
34:09
Speaker 1: take out Veronica at the drop off, take out Veronica
34:17
Speaker 1: at the drop off. What about that?
34:20
Speaker 5: Tell it on herself. She has told on herself.
34:24
Speaker 6: I think for the last nine years, I think there's
34:26
Speaker 6: probably been threats all over creation.
34:28
Speaker 5: And let me tell you the most streaking thing for me.
34:32
Speaker 6: This woman, the ex mother in law, cannot stand Veronica.
34:36
Speaker 6: She has made that clear. Veronica's no good for the children.
34:39
Speaker 6: They're not safe with her. She probably doesn't cook and clean,
34:42
Speaker 6: she doesn't take care of them. They're only you know, okay,
34:46
Speaker 6: when they're in her custody. When Veronica did not meet
34:52
Speaker 6: except the children up, especially on the daughter's birthday, remember
34:57
Speaker 6: it was her birthday, you would have been the first person,
35:01
Speaker 6: Tiffany would have been the first person call of the court.
35:05
Speaker 5: Saying she's in contempt. I told y'all she was no good.
35:08
Speaker 6: I've got these children sitting here crying because their mama
35:11
Speaker 6: didn't show up.
35:12
Speaker 5: Is this baby's birthday? When she didn't do that, she
35:16
Speaker 5: didn't make that call, pitching a fence. That told me
35:19
Speaker 5: right there she's involved.
35:21
Speaker 1: Is nobody worried about discussion of killing a judge pops
35:26
Speaker 1: up in the affidavit because I'm looking right at it
35:31
Speaker 1: that we don't have to worry about custody anymore. Because Adams,
35:35
Speaker 1: that would be the mother in law, Tiffany Adams quote
35:39
Speaker 1: knew the path the judge walked to work. I mean
35:43
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, and I'm the only one seeing that. Were
35:46
Speaker 1: they going to kill a judge too?
35:48
Speaker 6: It is telling you the links that she was gonna
35:51
Speaker 6: go to Nancy. Nothing was gonna stop her from keeping
35:55
Speaker 6: those children away from Veronica. She was going to have
36:01
Speaker 6: every possible avenue stopped so that she could have these children.
36:07
Speaker 5: Nancy.
36:08
Speaker 6: She's supposedly so connected to the courts and to the police,
36:11
Speaker 6: but she has refused to go by any of the
36:14
Speaker 6: court's order. They've basically made her bulletproof for years. She
36:19
Speaker 6: has stopped the mama from seeing them for years. She
36:21
Speaker 6: has refused to do what the court tells her to do.
36:24
Speaker 6: And when it looked for her that she could no
36:26
Speaker 6: longer prow the court or the victim, she killed her.
36:31
Speaker 5: That's how it looks, plain and simple.
36:34
Speaker 1: There is the death penalty in Oklahoma, Kelly Hyman. There
36:40
Speaker 1: have to be special aggravating circumstances in order for a
36:45
Speaker 1: prosecutor to seek a death penalty, and those have to
36:48
Speaker 1: be clearly enunciated far.
36:50
Speaker 2: Prior to trial. In writing.
36:53
Speaker 1: There has to be an announcement the state is going
36:56
Speaker 1: to seek the death penalty, and there is a very
36:58
Speaker 1: limited number of aggravating circumstances that will suffice. However, more
37:04
Speaker 1: than one body is one of those aggravating circumstances.
37:09
Speaker 8: Ultimately that will be up to the state to make
37:11
Speaker 8: a determination on whether they believe that they can bring
37:14
Speaker 8: it based on the facts and evidence of the case.
37:18
Speaker 9: But there is a lot of evidence that is coming out,
37:20
Speaker 9: and Nancy, to your point about the alleged about the judge,
37:24
Speaker 9: that is very very disconcerting because judges are the ones
37:29
Speaker 9: that preside over the case and they're the ones that
37:32
Speaker 9: make determinations, and so the fact that there is allegations
37:36
Speaker 9: of harming a judge, which is very disconcerting and very upsetting.
37:41
Speaker 12: But ultimately, no one, no matter who you are, is
37:44
Speaker 12: above the law, and people need to be held accountable
37:47
Speaker 12: and ultimately that will be up to the jury of
37:50
Speaker 12: whether they're innocent or guilty in this case too.
37:54
Speaker 1: Our brand joining us former US Marshal Service and author
37:58
Speaker 1: IRV to thank all. This was over what every other
38:02
Speaker 1: weekend or Wednesday to Saturday versus Thursday to Saturday visitations.
38:07
Speaker 2: And you know the so.
38:09
Speaker 1: Called evil mother in law, evil granny killer suspect. She's
38:15
Speaker 1: the mother of the bio dad, so she would have
38:18
Speaker 1: access to the grandchildren every time he had visitation or
38:24
Speaker 1: you know, share custody. So if he got the children
38:28
Speaker 1: half the time, she would have access to the children
38:31
Speaker 1: half of their lives.
38:33
Speaker 2: And in a divorce, you know, for a lot of people,
38:36
Speaker 2: that's pretty good visitation.
38:39
Speaker 1: And all of this over what a few days a month, Nancy, I.
38:45
Speaker 11: Don't think the time had anything to do with it.
38:49
Speaker 11: I think to this woman, this was obviously about control,
38:54
Speaker 11: and she wanted complete control of who was going to
39:00
Speaker 11: see those children, and when they were going to see
39:02
Speaker 11: those children, and what the circumstances were going to be.
39:06
Speaker 11: And she wasn't even going to allow a judge to
39:09
Speaker 11: dictate to her how to take care of these children,
39:13
Speaker 11: because she said it, she'll take that judge out. She
39:17
Speaker 11: knows his path to the courthouse. So no, Nancy, it
39:23
Speaker 11: makes no sense other than the fact that the woman
39:27
Speaker 11: was wanted complete control over every action concerning those children.
39:33
Speaker 1: To doctor Kendall Crowns, Doctor Kendall Crowns, your theory that
39:37
Speaker 1: a hammer was used to bludgeon the women dead, most
39:42
Speaker 1: likely about.
39:43
Speaker 2: The face and the head.
39:45
Speaker 1: The pain they would have endured preceding their death would
39:51
Speaker 1: have been unbearable, correct.
39:53
Speaker 7: I mean if these being tased or shocked with the
39:56
Speaker 7: electronic devices or electric devices, then being beaten with a hammer.
40:01
Speaker 7: Hammer isn't really efficient to kill someone because it's hard
40:05
Speaker 7: to break the skull with a hammer, so they would
40:07
Speaker 7: have to continually strike them multiple times, eventually fracturing the
40:11
Speaker 7: head and then getting into the brain cavity. The other
40:17
Speaker 7: thing you have to consider is the fact that they
40:19
Speaker 7: could have been hit with the hammer, knocked unconscious, and
40:23
Speaker 7: then placed into the grave and then covered with the dirt,
40:27
Speaker 7: still being alive but unconscious, so then dying by being
40:31
Speaker 7: buried alive as well. So there's a couple of ways
40:34
Speaker 7: of going out in this case.
40:36
Speaker 1: Would a medical examination of their lungs determine if they
40:40
Speaker 1: were buried alive, their lungs, their nasal pastes in their mouths.
40:43
Speaker 7: Their mouths and their nose could have inhaling the dirt.
40:47
Speaker 7: It wouldn't probably get as deep as the lungs it could,
40:50
Speaker 7: but you would see that the fact that they were
40:52
Speaker 7: inhaling or gulping at the dirt after they were buried.
40:55
Speaker 7: So that is something that can be found at autopsy.
40:58
Speaker 2: Two unarmed and a mothers dead.
41:02
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds, and now we stop to
41:07
Speaker 1: remember American hero agent Eliezer Ramos Valez, just thirty five,
41:14
Speaker 1: shot in the line of duty, leaving behind his beloved
41:18
Speaker 1: fiancee and infant son, Malcolm. American hero agent Elie iSER
41:25
Speaker 1: Ramos Valez. I want to thank all of our guests
41:29
Speaker 1: for being with us tonight, but especially to you for
41:32
Speaker 1: being with us tonight and every night. Nancy Gray signing off,
41:37
Speaker 1: good night friend.