Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / The Adolescent Personality Dip No One Warns You About

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The Adolescent Personality Dip No One Warns You About · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Happy Families podcast. Today on
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: the Doctor's Desk. Have you heard of the personality dip
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: in adolescence? Some brand new research has just been published
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: that caught my eye via Steve Stewart, Williams Substack and
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, do we have some things to talk
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: about here? The adolescent personality dip. Following teenagers for six
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: or seven years, when do they become absolutely psychotic? Is
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: that unfair? Did I say the wrong thing? Kylie? Have
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: I just gone too far? When they We're currently raising
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: our fifth sixteen year old, and I just feel like,
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  Speaker 1: I'm so sick of the adolescent emotionality and personality dip
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: and we've still we've got a twelve year old that's
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: acting like she's fifteen or sixteen now as well.
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  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, when you're going through it, you actually
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: feel like you're the only person going through it.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say something else right then,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: and I was going to say, yes, you do actually
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: feel like but I'm not going to say what you
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  Speaker 1: just feel like? Why is this still happening?
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: Anyway, but it was hilarious.
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  Speaker 2: The other night I was catching up with some women
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  Speaker 2: and we had a grandma she's in her late seventies,
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  Speaker 2: and then a appear similar age to me, and we
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  Speaker 2: were just talking and my friend mentioned that her fifteen
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: year old daughter was driving her insane, and she shared.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: A few particulars that story before, and.
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  Speaker 2: I looked at her and I went, oh, yeah, mine too.
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  Speaker 2: And then our lovely friend in her grandma Grandma She's
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: looked at me and she said how old are they?
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  Speaker 2: And we both looked at and we were at fifteen.
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  Speaker 2: And she said, I was just about to say, there
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  Speaker 2: is just nothing like a fifteen year old girl. And
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  Speaker 2: my friend said, oh, look, I'm just hoping that in
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  Speaker 2: the next few years she grows out of it.
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  Speaker 1: There's a beautiful, beautiful grandma.
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  Speaker 2: She looked us and she said, good luck.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: We could have said the same thing because we've been
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  Speaker 1: through it before. After the break, we will talk about
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  Speaker 1: the adolescent personality DIP, what is going on, why it's happening,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: or at least why we think it's happening, and most importantly,
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  Speaker 1: what we can do about it. Stay with us. Hello,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: and welcome to the Happy Family podcast, where you get
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every single day. This is Australia's most
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Cawson, the
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: parents of six daughters. Our youngest is now twelve. She's
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: now twelve. Do we call that a teenager? Oh? Yeah, okay,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: so we are, yeah, the way she's acting. So we
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: are in the final the final five six years, the
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: final throes of what has been a so far twenty
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: seven year.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Parent journey, not journey marathon.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: We're going to do like thirty three thirty four years
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: of active, full time parenting dependent children. Dear was that
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: I have to take credit for the last two. I
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: was the one to have you about those two. I
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: don't even know if I should continue with this pod. Hey,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: there's this brand new research that I really want to
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: talk about it. Steve Stewart Williams runs a substack evolutionary
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: psychologist based out of I think it's Malaysia these days,
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  Speaker 1: and he is just intelligent, thoughtful and even if you
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: don't like I, hear a lot of people say I
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: don't believe in evolution, so therefore I can't listen to
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  Speaker 1: what an evolutionary psychologist has to say. This guy's ideas
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  Speaker 1: are brilliant and there is a lot. There is a
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: lot going on here. So here's what we know. When
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: it comes to personality change. Much of the news is
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: good news. This is what I really want to focus on.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: It does get better if you're struggling. As we move
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: through adulthood, we tend to become less neurotic. Neurotic means
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: emotionally unstable, so we become more emotionally stable. As we
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: move through adulthood, we become more conscientious, so we're better
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: able to persevere and do hard things, and we even
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: believe it or not. Become more agreeable, although if you
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: work in retail or hospitality you might not think so,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: but well, actually, until at least you retire, there may
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: be some issues. Hello boomer. Anyway, let me move on.
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  Speaker 1: When it comes to adolescent personality, this is where the
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  Speaker 1: news isn't quite so good. The data shows that across
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  Speaker 1: cultures there's a temporary dip in what you might call
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  Speaker 1: desirable personality characteristics and traits. Teenagers basically become less conscientious,
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  Speaker 1: less agreeable, and more neurotic. And I want to talk
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  Speaker 1: about how that happens and why. So there's a recent
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  Speaker 1: longitudinal study from Norway that I'm going to link to
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: in the show, notes by three researchers whose names I
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: can't pronounce because Nordic languages are just beyond my understanding.
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  Speaker 1: So I do apologize. I'm not trying to be disrespectful
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  Speaker 1: to steins Beck, Wickstrom and von Sust. How do I do?
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  Speaker 2: Why are you asking me?
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  Speaker 1: I don't speak your agent? They followed a representative sample
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  Speaker 1: of one hundred and five, sorry, eight hundred and five
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  Speaker 1: teenagers measuring their personalities at ten, twelve, fourteen, and sixteen.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm super curious. How do you measure someone's personality?
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  Speaker 1: Have you heard the Big Five? The Big five personality traits?
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure we must have talked about this on the
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: podcast before refresh. My match shows how much you listen
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  Speaker 1: to what I've got to say in these Doctors Desk episodes. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: so personality can be divided up in a range different ways,
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  Speaker 1: but the most widely accepted measure of personality is what's
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: known as the Big five, and you can remember it
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  Speaker 1: with the acronym ocean O C E A M SO
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  Speaker 1: O stands for openness to new experience. I love that
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  Speaker 1: you're taking notes. You've never done this when I've spoken before.
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  Speaker 1: Openness to new experience. That is your your willingness to
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  Speaker 1: absorb what's going on in language, conversation, culture, art, your
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  Speaker 1: openness to what's happening in your environment. Some people don't
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  Speaker 1: want to know anything new. Other people are like, yes,
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  Speaker 1: let me try the new food at the restaurant. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: So openness to new experience. Children tend not to be
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  Speaker 1: very open. They just like what they like. The C
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  Speaker 1: stands for conscientiousness. This is your ability to get stuff done,
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  Speaker 1: to persevere, to endure, have fortitude. The A stands for agreeableness.
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  Speaker 1: Some people are really agreeable. They listen to what other
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  Speaker 1: people say. They're willing to be empathic and compromise and
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  Speaker 1: engage with ideas. And other people are less agreeable. They're
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  Speaker 1: actually quite dogmatic and rigid.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Did you say the E?
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I'm getting too oh? Did I miss oh? I can't spell?
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: I suddenly forgot how to spell? Thanks for see. This
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: is what happens when you take notes, you pick me up.
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  Speaker 1: Should do this more often. The E stands for extraversion.
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  Speaker 1: So this is about your energy levels and how much
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  Speaker 1: you love being with people and doing exciting things. And
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  Speaker 1: then the end up to the end. Now n is neuroticism,
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  Speaker 1: and that this is the emotional instability, how emotionally dysregulated
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  Speaker 1: you get, and how upset you are by different things.
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  Speaker 1: So essentially, there are a whole bunch of questionnaires that
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  Speaker 1: you can give people to measure those five attributes. And
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  Speaker 1: these researchers have to look at these kits filling in
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  Speaker 1: the questionnaires at ages ten, twelve, fourteen, and sixteen.
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  Speaker 2: So the obvious question is what did they find.
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  Speaker 1: Let me quiz you on this. Okay, we have not
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  Speaker 1: gone through any notes. You don't know where this is
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  Speaker 1: going to go. Will start with openness to experience? What
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  Speaker 1: would you imagine happens with kids as they go from
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  Speaker 1: ten to sixteen? When it comes to openness to experience?
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  Speaker 2: You want me to like gender based? Is that?
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah? Yeah, girls versus boys or both?
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  Speaker 2: So generally our experience has been that boys would be
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  Speaker 2: more open to new experiences and girls less.
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  Speaker 1: So okay, And would you say that they become more
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  Speaker 1: or less open as they grow from ten to sixteen?
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  Speaker 2: Less for the girls, right?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And that's what the data showed. The data
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  Speaker 1: show that overall, both boys and girls decline in openness
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  Speaker 1: to experience as they go from ten to sixteen and girls.
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  Speaker 1: Girls actually start off scoring higher, really, but by the
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  Speaker 1: time they get to sixteen, the boys are more open
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  Speaker 1: to new experiences, the girls are less. So let's do
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  Speaker 1: conscientiousness next. What do you imagine happens with conscientiousness as
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  Speaker 1: children from ten to sixteen?
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  Speaker 2: Boys, there's a rapid decline, right.
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  Speaker 1: I love the way you said that were a.
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  Speaker 2: Big face, but I think that girls go through that too.
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  Speaker 2: The other day on the podcast, we talk specifically about
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  Speaker 2: education and how girls are a lot more conscientious in
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  Speaker 2: their education path compared to boys. So I feel like
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  Speaker 2: in some regards girls actually move up the ladder of
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  Speaker 2: conscientiousness in some areas, but in lots of areas I
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  Speaker 2: don't think. I think there's a big decline.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So here's what we found. Okay, So I remember,
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  Speaker 1: with openness to experience goes down for both, with conscientiousness
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  Speaker 1: goes down for both. Are starting at about the age
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  Speaker 1: of twelve, and I think it's really important to highlight
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  Speaker 1: here that well, the trajectory of change is similar for
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  Speaker 1: both boys and girls. Boys score lower on conscientiousness than
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  Speaker 1: girls at every age, yes, and they continue to do
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  Speaker 1: that well into adulthood, and we don't have any data
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  Speaker 1: yet that shows that boys become more conscientious than girls ever. Ever, ever.
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  Speaker 1: In fact, when I was writing my boys book, that's
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  Speaker 1: partly because boys are just much more prone to struggling
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  Speaker 1: with impulse control than our girls, even at age thirty,
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  Speaker 1: thirty five, forty. You talk to middle aged women and
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  Speaker 1: I'll say, oh, I'm just waiting for my husband to
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  Speaker 1: start to control his impulses a little better. They are
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  Speaker 1: not very good at that. Okay, so we've got open
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  Speaker 1: this new experience. We've got conscientiousness. Let's go to extraversion next.
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  Speaker 1: But what would you think happens with kids, say, go
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  Speaker 1: from ten to sixteen in terms of their extraversion. I'm
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  Speaker 1: pretty impressed by the way you're two for two so far.
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  Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting that.
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  Speaker 2: Girls would definitely decline. I think that boys decline for
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  Speaker 2: a short time, but I would suggest that they would
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  Speaker 2: increase in their extraversions as they get older.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So having a look at the data here, what
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  Speaker 1: it shows is that extraversion pretty much stays as it
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  Speaker 1: was in childhood up until about the age of I'm
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  Speaker 1: going to say about fourteen, and then it starts to
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  Speaker 1: drop off. Kids just become less inclined to reach out
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  Speaker 1: to new people. Making friends becomes harder. They start to
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: close up shop a little bit, close ranks and just
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  Speaker 1: folks on their friends. Extraversion falls in both sexes from
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: about age fourteen, or we've got two to go. Let's
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  Speaker 1: wrap this up agreeableness. What's your prediction for agreeableness?
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  Speaker 2: That's a general decline, right, who.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Would be less agreeable? Girls or boys? Girls? Says the
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: mother of six girls. Yeah, so agreeableness drops from about
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: age twelve in both genders. Girls actually remain more agreeable
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  Speaker 1: than boys right throughout the process.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Girls are what happened to our girls then, believe.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: It or not, more agreeable. I don't know, I don't know. Basically,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: we can look at two different things here. We can
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: look at compliance, and boys are just a bit more
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: non compliant. There's that impulsivity again. And the second thing
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: you look at with agreeableness is something called altruism. And
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: once again, girls tend to be a little bit more
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: altruistic than boys at an average level, and so they
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  Speaker 1: are very disagreeable. But we need to talk about neuroticism
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  Speaker 1: because the disagreeableness is not just about that personality trait
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: of arguing with their parents. A lot of it actually
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: comes into the question of neuroticism. So last one, what
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: would you anticipate the data showed on neuroticism for teenagers.
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  Speaker 2: I think girls go through the roof.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a massive difference in the magnitude
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: of the shift across time when you compare girls and boys.
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  Speaker 1: So from ages twelve to sixteen, girls show a really
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: big increase in neuroticism and the boys just don't. And
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: what that means is that that neuroticism gap really widens
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: substantially by mid adolescents. As with a lot of personality
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  Speaker 1: things where there are big gaps. Over time, as men
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: and women mature, the gap closes, but during adolescens, oh
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: my god, goodness, there's the neuroticism. And that explains what
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: you were talking about there, with the big emotions, the dysregulation,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: the instability, the huge reactions.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Girls are way more inclined to seek the approval of
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: their peers.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Right, which ties in with agreeableness.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: There's so much more, and it.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Also shows the decrease in openness to experience.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Well, and then neuroticism because because when they don't get it. Whoosh. Well,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: not only that they're so keenly aware of social context
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: and they don't want to be seen out on the
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: limb ever, and that impacts emotions in a huge way.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, so there's the summary. We need to take a break,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: and when we come back, the shortest wrap up ever,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: let's talk about what we're supposed to do knowing that
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: personality dips in adolescence, and also a bit about why
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: that's next on the Happy Families podcast, We're back. This
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: is the Happy Family's podcast, Kylie. Why it's happening. There's
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: a whole lot of conjecture, there's a whole lot of speculation.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think that any of us really know. There's
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: no data to tell us why it happens, and so
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to speculate on it. Apart from that,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: our podcast time is almost up. So what matters is
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: not why it's happening, but what we can do about it.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: And it's worth spending a couple of minutes on this.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Well, let's just close up shop and hibernate for the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: next few years.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Get through it, lock them away, send them to school.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: I'm saying, lock me away, right, well.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: You still got to live. Come on, it's hard work,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: so I could live in the bath. So the first
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: thing that I want to highlight is the power of
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: perspective taking is enormous. Second thing that I want to
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: highlight is patience is profound. There's this thing that I've
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: been researching quite a lot lately. It's actually in an
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: education context, autonomy supportive instructional behaviors. This is what teachers
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: need to do to create classrooms where students autonomy is supported,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: which means that the kids are going to be much
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: more devated to comply and be into the content. And
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: there are seven autonomy supportive instructional behaviors for teachers. If
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: you're a teacher, listen up, take some notes. But if
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: you're a parent, you'd just be amazed at how much
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: these autonomy supporive instructional behaviors apply in the living room,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: maybe more than the classroom. Number one, take your child's perspective,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: like stand in their shoes, see the world through their eyes,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: understand their perspective. When you can do that, oh my goodness,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: it changes the game. Perspective Taking active consideration of another
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: person's mental state. When you say, well this is really tough.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: I can see how frustrating this is for you. All
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're not the enemy anymore. You're their ally,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: and it makes a huge difference. Number two, Invite them
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: to pursue things that they're interested in. This means like
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: force creates resistance. We talk about all of this sort
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: of stuff all the time on the podcast. When kids
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: feel like they are allowed to pursue things that matter
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: to them, they feel like origins rather than pawns. They
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: feel like their behavior is self authored. They feel this
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: sense of volition and choicefulness. They experience ownership over what
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: they're doing, so they therefore get to endorse the activity,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: and therefore they're much more likely to engage in things
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: that are healthy and say because they're choosing them. The
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: third thing support their basic psychological needs. They need friends,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: they need to feel like they're good at stuff. The
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: fourth one, give an explanatory rationale. Instead of saying do this,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: do that? That invites problems. Provide rationales. Help them to
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: understand the motivation behind your requests. It's a game changer.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: The fifth one acknowledge negative feelings six to one. Make
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: invitations rather than stepping into command and control all the time.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: And the seventh one display patients, Display patients display patients like, literally.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: That made to say that three times.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: No, no, but that's I've said it for emphasis, because
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: holy cow, how much patience do you need to raise
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: a teenager? They are my, well, they're not just mine.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: That's what the research shows is going to make the
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: biggest impact when we try to navigate the adolescent personality DIP.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: I love that the very first one is about us
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: learning to take our child's perspective.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: We've forgotten what it's like to be a teenager.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: It is so easy when they're throwing everything at us
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: to want to do some very unkind things or.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Say unkind things, or to be unproductive and ineffective in
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: your relationship, to hurt the relationship. Yeah.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: And I remember having a conversation with somebody once and
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: just I was so frustrated with one of our children,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: and they just reminded me, do you think that she's
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: not trying? And I'm like, no, she's not. But they
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: are like their world, the way they see the world,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: the way they're experience the world. It's all so heightened
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: because there is so many changes going on inside them
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: and on the outside as well. So many things in
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: their life that they have zero control over, so many
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: things that they feel are unnecessary in their world, and
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: they just are trying to work it all out.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Think back to what it was like when you were
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: a teenager.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and how you saw your parents and how you
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: felt about you know, X, Y and Z. I think
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: it's really important.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: That was a fun doctor's desk. You actually you took notes,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: you took notes, you got involved. I love it. The
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Doctor's Desk will be back again next week on the
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast, which is produced by Justin Roland from
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: Bridge Medium, Imhamits provides additional research and have in support
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: and if you'd like more info about that particular study,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: we'll link to it in the show notes. For more
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: on making your family happier, visit our social pages or
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Happy families dot com dot a