Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / When Kids Break Stuff: Teaching Accountability Without Shame or Punishment

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When Kids Break Stuff: Teaching Accountability Without Shame or Punishment · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Every now and again. Children make mistakes, they break things,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: they have accidents, and sometimes those things are costly. Should
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: we be making our children pay for the thing they
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: broke for the accident that they were a part of
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: today's conversation natural consequences, accountability and what's fair when it
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: is their fault or when it's not their fault. We'll
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: try to answer those questions so that you can navigate
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: those tricky situations whenever they occur. In just a sec
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: it's next on the Happy Families podcast. Hello, Welcome to
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: the Happy Famili's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions. Every single day.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, where Justin and Kylie Coulson. Today, Kylie,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you've asked for the start of the pod. You have
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: an incident to discuss.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I was talking with some mum friends the other day
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  Speaker 2: and a situation came up. One of my friend's sons
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: had invited his friend over to play and they were
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: in the lound room playing with the Wii and the
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: controller slipped out of his friend's hand and smashed their
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: brand new TV.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: So when I hear you say that, my initial response
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: is the controller slipped out of his hand, so that
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: that that strikes me as questionable, Like.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: So the mum actually saw it happen.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, so it is legit.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: So it is legit, okay. And she knew that there
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: was there was no you know, monkey business going.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: On having a hand trum because he's losing How old
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: the kids eight? Oh gosh? Okay.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: And so her question that she posed to all of
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: us was, I've never been in a situation where anything
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: like this has happened before. Do I ask the parents
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: to replace our TV?
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm? What was the census?
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: The overwhelming response was no, you can't do that. But
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: there was definitely conversations around the fact that if it
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: was me, I would be letting the parents know about
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: the incident, and I would be hoping that they would
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: offer to kind of help out in some way.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let me ask you would you agree with that?
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Would you let the parents know, Hey just wanted you
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: to know this happened today, or would you just let
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: it be? Would you expect that they should be paying
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: for the TV, especially you've got a brand new TV.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: TV's sometimes very expensive. What are your thoughts?
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: So I think that relationships matter more than things and
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: it would depend on the relationship I had with the family,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: That's the first thing. And then secondly, I wouldn't be
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  Speaker 2: expecting an eight.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Year old to cough up three or four grand.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Obviously, But I would also like to think that together
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: as parents, we could think of a way that they
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: could feel like they have contributed to helping restore something
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: that they broke, because, regardless if it was an accident
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: or maliciously done, kids carry the guilt of the experience
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: more times than not, and giving them a way that
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: they can make restitution for what has taken place helps
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: them to feel like they're a good contributor. Okay, So
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: we've never actually had this experience happen in our home
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: at all.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Our children have never broken anything accidentally or maliciously.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: No, we haven't had any friends really that have done
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: any damage.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: I thought you're gonna say, we've never had any friends.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: No, but our kids have definitely, and probably more so
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: with cars. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Well at the other end of the spect we're going
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: to talk about that a little bit later. So, yeah,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: where do we go from here?
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Well, what would you have done if it was if
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: it was us?
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, So I think that I'm really cautious of using
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: the word consequences because whenever I hear the word consequences,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: it usually relates to how should I punish a child?
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: But there's definitely something to discussed here.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: So why don't you break it down for us? What's
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: the difference between a natural consequence or a logical consequence?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so a natural consequence is when the remote flies
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  Speaker 1: out of your hand and hits the TV. It breaks
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  Speaker 1: the TV, and now we don't have a TV anymore.
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  Speaker 1: That's a natural consequence. A logical consequence is completely different.
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  Speaker 1: Let me break it down even more. I think that
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  Speaker 1: it's worth spenning them in on this because I hear
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: about this on the blogs all the time. I hear
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  Speaker 1: about this on social media all the time, and it's
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  Speaker 1: really important to make the distinction between them. It's one
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: that I find troubling. I've got to be honest, because
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  Speaker 1: to me, this distinction reveals how adults continue to manipulate
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  Speaker 1: and coerce children even when they think they're being progressive.
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  Speaker 1: So natural consequence, that's what happens on its own without
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: any adult intervention. You don't wear your jacket, you get cold,
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  Speaker 1: you don't eat, you get hungry. These are not consequences
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: that are imposed by anyone. They just unfold you naturally. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: you treat people unkindly in the playground, you likely won't
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  Speaker 1: have any friends. But we need to be careful about
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  Speaker 1: standing back and smugly saying h I knew that was
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: going to happen, while your child suffers like you're trying
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: to teach them a lesson. A lot of parents will say, well,
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  Speaker 1: you're just going to experience the natural consequences, and to me,
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  Speaker 1: a compassionate, loving parent will intervene. The natural consequences of
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: playing too close to the road either you might get
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: hit by a.
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  Speaker 2: Car, but you'd never do that.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Of course, the natural consequences of placing your hand on
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: the hot stove is you will burn your hand, and
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  Speaker 1: a parent would say, well, I would never let my
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: child do that because the stakes are too high, the
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: risk is too great. I still think that when we
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  Speaker 1: can see quite clearly the natural consequences of AB or C,
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  Speaker 1: it's worth some level of intervention so we can say
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: to our children, I'm nervous about this. For you, the
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: natural consequences of you, as a fifteen year old going
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: out and drinking too much alcohol is that you are
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: going to hurt yourself or somebody else eventually. This is yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's right. It's not going to end well here, and
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: so we do need to I think, intervene and prevent
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: natural consequences because there are better ways to learn lessons.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Smug I told you so. Ism isn't in the best
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  Speaker 1: interest of our kids. Logical consequences, though, this is where
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: things get really insidious. So logical consequences are punishments that
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: are dressed up in reasonable sounding clothing. And what I
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: mean by that is adults impose them, but then they
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: claim that they're somehow natural or inevitable. For example, if
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: you don't put your toys away, I'm going to take
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: them away for a week, or I'm going to take
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: the iPad away from you. If you're late to dinner,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: you don't get to eat. So that's not a logical consequence.
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  Speaker 1: That's an arbitrary penalty. That's the punishment yeah, that adults
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: have invented and then enforced because they think that it's
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: going to teach you less but it teaches all the
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: wrong lessons. And my question here is, well, why do
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: kids need to suffer consequences at all? The entire framework
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  Speaker 1: assumes that children only learn through suffering, which is it's
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  Speaker 1: patently false. It's based on behaviorism, which is an old
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  Speaker 1: form of psychology, the idea that we have to manipulate
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: people through punishments and rewards. But kids are thinking, feeling
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  Speaker 1: people who are trying to make sense of the world,
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  Speaker 1: and they need our help, not our clever punishment schemes.
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  Speaker 1: So for the rest of this conversation and after the break,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: we're going to pick this up. Instead of asking what
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: consequence should I impose because the TV was broken by
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: their remote control, or because the window was broken, or
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: the vase was broken by a wayward ball, or somebody
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: being careless, or because somebody put their shoulder through the
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: wall because they were wrestling too roudly, or maybe even
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: they were angry. Instead of saying what consequences should impose?
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  Speaker 1: I think it's much more effective to say, what does
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  Speaker 1: this child need right now? How can I help them
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: to learn? Discipline is about problem solving, So what problem
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  Speaker 1: are we trying to solve together? That creates a relationship
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: based on collaboration and trust rather than control, And that's
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: kind of what I'm working towards. So after the break.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about why we need kids to
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: use their or and get out of bed. That sounds exciting,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: doesn't it. And we're also going to talk about those
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: things where things really do happen by accident versus those
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: things that happen out of anger with intent, and whether
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  Speaker 1: or not problem solving might actually need to include some
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: form of reparation. So that's coming up in just a sex.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Stay with us. We're talking punishments and consequences and what
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: to do when mistakes happen or when damage or breakage occurs.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's a laptop that's been broken, or perhaps a
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: car has been crashed, depending on the age of your child,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: or maybe.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Or they've left their school jumper at school and lost
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: it this is like the fourth time this year, yeah.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Or perhaps it's Mother's Day and the kids have decided
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: to give you a bath. They've turned the taps on,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: and then they've forgotten to turn the taps off, and
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: they've flooded downstairs, which happened in our house a few
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: years ago and cost thousands of dollars in replace.
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  Speaker 2: So I was followed by a twelve hundred mass.
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  Speaker 1: So what do we do here? What do we do
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: about this. One of my favorite phrases to talk to
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: parents about is using your ore and getting out of bed.
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  Speaker 1: So the kids when they hear me talking about this,
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  Speaker 1: they roll their eyes like this has been hit so
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  Speaker 1: many times in our house. But when the kids do
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  Speaker 1: something wrong, they often go to blame, excuse, and denial.
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  Speaker 1: That is, they get into bed, blame, excuse, denial. And
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  Speaker 1: I'm really big on saying no, no, no, no, you need
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  Speaker 1: to use it or here, own it, be accountable, show
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  Speaker 1: some responsibility, ownership, accountability, responsibility, Oh a R, that's your ore,
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  Speaker 1: bed blame, excuse and denial. And what I'm really looking
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  Speaker 1: for from a pairing point of view is if my
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: children are in bed, then they can't be taught, they
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: can't problem solve, they can't figure out a way to
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: make sure that this doesn't happen again.
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  Speaker 2: Well, it's not their fault. So they're not willing to
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: take responsibility for it. They're not willing to recognize the
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: part that they may have played in it. There's no
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: conversation to be happening.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no accountability and ownership. So what I'm interested in
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: is what part did you play here? And how can
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: you own that how can you be accountable? How can
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: you be responsible? That's what adults do, That's maturity.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: So I'm thinking about the story that we shared last
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: week on the pod where you destroyed dinner.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Again.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm sharing it because I don't think it matters
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: what age you are. We make a mistake. Yes, how
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: did you feel at the end of that process?
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  Speaker 1: So, I mean, I spent two and a half hours
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: on dinner and I was devastated. I was absolutely I
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: was heartbroken because I was so looking forward to the meal.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: It was late at night, we were all exhausted and hungry,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: and I really I felt like I actually felt like
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: but instead we laughed and I said, I've completely ruined this.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: I was a little bit angry at our twenty one
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: year old daughter who had told me to buy condensed
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: milk rather than coconut milk, and I rang her and
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: told her. But then she felt awful. She almost burst
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: into tears on the phone. And I felt awful for
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: bringing guilt into that conversation because it was an honest
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: mistake on her part, and so I just owned it.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: I said, guys, I've ruined dinner. Pizza is on me tonight.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: We're eating pizza. What sort of pizza do you want?
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: So often when we find ourselves in a place where
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: somebody makes a mistakes, someone breaks something, whatever, our natural
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: response is to get angry right and we lay on
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: the guilt because we want them to understand and recognize
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: the price that that mistake has cost. And yet you
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: already knew it. Yes you're an adult, but it doesn't
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: matter whether you're an adult or a child. You recognize
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: and feel the guilt and the weight of that mistake.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: So let me share to other egs apples from our family.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: We've shared this on the podcast many times, but if
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: you're a new listener, here's the short version. On day
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: one of our eldest daughter getting her l's, she asked you, Kylie,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: if she could go for a drive, even though I'd
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: said I'll teach her tonight, Please say no, just take
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: her to school. You acquiesced, you gave in. She wrote
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: off the car within the first few minutes of being
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: behind the wheel, and we just gave her a hug
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: and said, you know what, mistakes happen. People matter, things don't.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And then the tough flub was you said, you're going
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: to get in the car and drive.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: That's right, You're going to have to learn to drive
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: a manual and I will get another one by tonight
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: and we'll figure this out. We were poor UNI students.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: We didn't have the resources for it, but we made
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: it happen, and now she can competently drive a manual
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: vehicle and has done for about ten years. The second example, though,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: is a twenty one year old daughter who was driving
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: late at night in my brand new Kia Serato GT
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: and she hit a kangaroo and wrote my car off.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: I think I'd done like twenty thousand kilometers on it.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: All theirs it was only it was only very, very new,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: and we had explained to all the kids that once
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: you get a driver's license, if you crash the car,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: you will be responsible for the excess for the young
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: driver excess. We'll cover anything else that's required if necessary,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: but you cover the excess, and we did ask her
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: to do that. There was nothing malicious. It was an accident.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: She can't control the kangaroo. She was being attentive. But
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: she was twenty one years old, she had a part
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: time job, she had money in the bank, and we
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: just said, this one's not on us insurance. We'll cover
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: the rest of the car, but you had the crash
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: and there is a price to be paid. I don't
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: know if we did the right thing by the way.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Maybe we did, maybe we didn't. As I'm sharing the story,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling quite guilty about the fact that we charged
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: a twenty one year old a young driver excess. Maybe
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: we shouldn't have, but in that case, we thought, well,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: what needs to happen here. Our daughter needs to understand
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: that there are costs associated with crashing a car, and
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: she's very lucky that with a brand new car, a
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: forty thousand dollars car, it's only going to cost her
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: two and a half grand.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: When I think about all of these scenarios that we've
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: spoken about, to me, it always comes down to the
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: age of the child, the circumstances we find ourselves, and
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: what's actually happened. So I don't feel guilty that we
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: charged our twenty one year old the excess because we
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: had explained to her that part of the risk of
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: driving a car was that you could be in an accident,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: and whether or not you were responsible for that accident
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: or not, there is an exit there is an excess.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: So she understood the risks.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: And she was older and she had the cash. Although
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: it's still really hurt her.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: It really hurt her. Yeah, but she learned really important lessons.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: And I think that so often as parents we want
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: to save our kids from having these experiences and learning well.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, we had another daughter who had three crashes
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: and that ended up costing her about eight thousand dollars
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and we did not lift her out of that. We
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: just said, you forgot to put the handbrake on, or
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: you drive up the back of somebody or whatever. The
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: third one I can't even remember the third one now,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: and we just said, this is the price of driving
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: a car and having an accident, and unfortunately you will
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: have to carry that cost. Here's the thing problem solving again.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Instead of saying what consequences should impose, we want to
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: ask what does this child need? How can I help
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: them learn? What problem are we solving together? And so
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: we've there's value in having the conversation ahead of time.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: With some things you can like driving a car, but
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: there are also accidents. I just want to emphasize this.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Sometimes that problem solving may include reparations but it should
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: be worked out together. If our children through a controller
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: at a TV. Sorry, we're playing a game and a
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: controllers slipped out of their hand and hit a TV
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: and broke it in a friend's home and we found
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: out about it, I would say to the friends, guys,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: this is a really awkward and tricky situation. I'm not
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: sure the best thing to do here, but i would
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: like my child to make some form of a contribution
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: to reparations here, and I'd love to bring them in
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: on it. What do you think would be appropriate? Like,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: can they wash cars and mow lawns for a few weeks?
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: They Can they do something here that's going to help.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: I can't expect an eight year old to buy a
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: new three thousand dollars teave, And as the parent, I
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily feel responsible for it. The kids were playing
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: a game. Accidents happen, But I'd like my child too
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: make sure that they're not in blame, excuse, in denial,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: and to have a level of ownership, accountability, and responsibility.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: But that's what's so important about this process. It's about the.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Conversation, about the conversations.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: It's actually about the conversation.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not how much money comes out of one wallet
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: and goes into another. There we go. We solved the
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: problems of the world today. I really enjoyed that. That's
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: a fun thought exercise. I'm glad we've got to talk
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: about that one. Hey. Tomorrow on the pod, we're going
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: to talk about those tricky conversations that we encourage you
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: to have with your kids on Sundays. We've got a
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: tough question coming up that's tomorrow, and a whole lot more.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Oh Mummy, wine time. I've got an interview on Wednesday
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: with Victoria Vanstone, the host of the Sober Awkward podcast.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: If you don't mind a tipple, I.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Think that you might enjoy that chat and a whole
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: lot more. All happening this week on the pod. Thanks
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: so much to Justin Rulan, who produces the podcast, Mim
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Hammond's Looks after reesa admin and other support and if
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: you'd like more info about making your family happier, we'd
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: love for you to visit us at happy families dot
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: com dot you or check out our socials Doctor Justin
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Colson's Happy Families on Instagram and Facebook.