Latest / A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast / Episode 6: Christian Music, Saying "No" & The Church Building

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Episode 6: Christian Music, Saying "No" & The Church Building · A Matter of Faith: A Presby Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to a matter of faith, a Frisbee podcast, the podcast, where we respond to your questions and comments on issues of faith, social justice, and church life.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Don't be afraid to write in and ask your question because if it matters to you, it matters to us.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: And it just might be a matter of faith,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Whether it be faith in God, faith in others, or faith in yourself, we are brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and Unbound, the interactive journal on Christian social justice for the Presbyterian church USA.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: I am your host Lee Cato,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm your host Simon dune
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Without further ado, let's dive into today's questions.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: So our first question for this week, and this is very relevant Simon, it says I really enjoy helping out with various activities at my church, Bible study and choir and serving meals to the homeless in our community to name a few.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: But the more I become involved, the more it seems like people rely on me and assume I will participate.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: I keep being approached about doing more things.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: I hate saying no to my church community, but I'm starting to feel overwhelmed.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: What should I do?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Well, Simon, what should they do?
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I just want to say that I think it's great that, that this person feels called and motivated to help out because that is really important for the church and it's important to, to serve, but you do need to draw a line at some point and set boundaries for yourself.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I think that the church, like a lot of nonprofits and social service organizations really appreciates when people lend their skills and their time to help out.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: But there is a difference between when an organization has a need in quotes, which you then volunteer to help address compared to when an organization assumes or expects you to give of yourself and your time to meet a specific need or request.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: If that makes sense, the first situation is what volunteering is supposed to be.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: It's voluntary.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: There's this mutual understanding between the organization and the volunteers that all who contribute their time do so as they're able and willing.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Whereas the second situation is unhealthy because there is an expectation that you will act to meet that need as if your time is not your own.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: This is taking advantage of your Goodwill.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: So if an organization, whether it be a church or a nonprofit is, is so reliant on a single volunteer and a single person's time that it cannot function.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Honestly, if something really needs to change there.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: If we think about the church in the church, we are all part of part of the body and the body isn't made up of one part or one person.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: There are others who can step up and do what is needed to keep things going.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Um, but, but I also know that it's very easy for some folks to fall in the habit of saying yes to everything and for churches or organizations to, to assume the answer is always yes.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Sometimes without even asking.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: So you should not be afraid to say no, and don't be afraid to say that in order to prevent a situation that ultimately isn't right, and that will likely burn you out in the end.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: And then you won't be of good use for yourself or for the, for the activities that you're trying to participate in.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: What do you think?
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Well, I will say I don't.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I think you and I are no stranger to this.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Cause I do think that in many times, if you are involved or if you have that energy, the church can often really, they have a good offer that the church is really good at picking out the people who are, you know, excited about doing something are very skilled at doing something or who may be young and may be an up and coming leader.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: And the church is really good about pointing that out and, you know, asking too much of people.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: And so I do think it is important for us to, as a church to also recognize that too, is that there are, there's only so much we can do, and we are the body of Christ.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: And if, I mean, even an exercise, if you work out one part of your body, it's gonna tire out.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: It's gonna cramp up.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: It's gonna, it's going to be useless if you, if you overwork that.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: And so I do think it's very important for us to know when we have done too much.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: And when it's time for us to take a step back and I often feel like people become guilty of saying no, like, Oh, this is the church though.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Like I have to keep helping, I have to keep doing something.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: But I also think that our faith teaches us about our own self-worth and our own self care, the way that we take care of our own selves.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: I think that that is also a part of our faith and the church has in many ways perpetuated this sense of guilt that I think many of us kind of have, if we do say no, but I also think it is a way for us to take care of our own selves and the bodies that we are given by God.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: And that are also divine.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: The, one of the reasons why Christianity is so meaningful to me is that we do believe in incarnation.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: And so our bodies and how we take care of those bodies and how those bodies are in themselves seen as divine is very, very important.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: So I think self care is very important and it's often ignored and the work of the church, we just work, work, work until we can't anymore.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: And I'm not sure that's the best way.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure that's what we're called to do.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Even Jesus rested, even God rested on the seventh day.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: And, and I do think that's very, very important.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: And I also just wonder about how communities perpetuate this kind of culture too.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you've experienced that Simon, but I've seen that in churches and also in nonprofits and other organizations that you have to show that you work hard, you have to be like tired all the time.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: And like you have to not have any energy to show that you are doing what you should be doing.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: And I don't know if that's your experience, but I definitely have noticed.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I, I think that that is true of, uh, of certain communities, organizations and yeah.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: In the non-profit and faith-based space as well, this sort of needing to demonstrate your commitment to the cause or the organization, and often a symptom or a sign of that is this workaholic mentality.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: And if you're not tired, are you working hard enough?
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Are you dedicated enough?
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: And that's not what faith is ever about.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: So I think that's a really good point, Lee.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: I think there's also opportunity here because if someone stops volunteering as much or giving quite as much of their time, it opens up opportunities for others to step into fill that gap and that void and to learn some skills and to step maybe out of their own comfort zone to try to do that service.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: And that's, that's really great.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: And it, but if one person is trying to do everything or being asked to show up time and time, again, those opportunities aren't going to be presented to other people.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: And so in the act of saying, no, you're actually providing opportunities for others and you should not feel bad about that.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: And I think if, if you know of people that may want to get involved or may want to be doing the work within the church, it is a good opportunity to invite other people to be a part of the work invite or, or give out names to the leaders that say, you know, this is another group of people who have been really interested in leading and maybe extend an invitation to those individuals as well.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: I do know in the church, we always kind of reach out to the same people and there's always other people out there who are wanting a lot of opportunities and who are wanting to get that invitation.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: So I think when you say, no, maybe also offer, here are some more people that may be well, but, and then also being honest with people and the church and saying I'm a little tired, it's time for me to take a little rest.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: And that's also a part of our faith.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: So Lee, our next
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Question is a fun.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: One says, what do you think about Christian music?
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Well, Lee, what do you think about Christian music?
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: So many feelings about Christian music.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: And I think we're, I think we should preface and saying that, you know, people have their own tastes in music and some people like Christian music, some people don't, and we're not here to really judge anybody about that.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: But I, I grew up listening to Christian music, kind of like the pop, you know, like back in, like my heyday was like late nineties, early two thousands when the Christian music pop Christian music and like Christian rock and things like that were so popular or I'm from, and, and we would go to the concerts and, and all that kind of stuff.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: And many ways I will listen to it every now and again, just for nostalgia reasons.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: I think it's, it takes me back to a time where my life was very interesting then.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: And, and for some reason I kind of listened to it every once in a while just to, to go back to those times.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: But I do think whatever your tastes in music is I think the most powerful music that I have experienced within like a Christian realm and Simon and I have talked about this, that, that the most powerful music that is say, quote, Christian is one that is kind of birthed out of, uh, your experience, the experience of somebody and who they are, and speaking to how they have experienced the divine, whereas an other types of music and the Christian world, it's, it's kind of rooted in a very surface level type of, of Christianity and, and a lot of it is about salvation and what that means.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: And so some of that I do think is kind of problematic.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Would you agree Simon?
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I think that there's, there's so much more that could be out there than only talking about sort of those topics that there's more to faith.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: There's more to Christianity and its role in your life than that.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: I do think there is a whole other whole other way of being a person of faith that yeah.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: That hasn't been tapped into when it comes to Christian music.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: And so in my experience, I have a very nuanced thinking of about Christian music.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: The question was, what do you think about Christian music?
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: And there are all types of things I think about it.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: And I think the culture that it creates or has created has in some ways skewed the view of it, it kind of has narrowed in what being a Christian means.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: And I think that it has created a culture that in many ways has instigated this like individualistic type of Christianity that it is.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: And it is speaking to what individual salvation that you have to, you know, it's, it's, it really does cultivate a very individual way of thinking about faith.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: What is your experience Simon with it?
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Cause we're roughly in the same age range.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: So I have a, I think I have a similar experience early to late or early to late two thousands was my sort of prime time when I was listening to Christian music.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: And again, I sometimes go back and listen to it for nostalgia, just like you.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: But I think that when we talked about music more generally, whether it be Christian music or music, music is most helpful for me when it's serving a couple of purposes.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: One is that it's musically varied and usually helping strike a specific mood or matching my mood for how I'm feeling in that moment.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: And then, like you were saying, it also communicates, lived experience that either I can relate to, or it's educating me about a life or a subject matter that I would never know otherwise.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: And sometimes Christian music does do this and sometimes it doesn't, but that, again, that best music has that lived experience in it, which gives it a grounding in reality and soul.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: And don't get me wrong.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything wrong.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: If you just want to worship and praise Jesus, there is definitely time and place to do that.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: And that is wonderful, but there can also be more depth to, to music in general.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Um, and that's something that I think distinguishes gospel soul and certain elements of rap music from certain elements of the Christian music genre, because they're rooted in the lived experience of black, African and African Americans, and that shines through, through the lyrics, the tempo and the musicality.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: And there's something really powerful to that.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Um, so again, different different types of music for different tastes.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: And I think that's great.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Um, but there's definitely potential for more depth.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: And now we've seen, I know, and this has happened in the Presbyterian church now that, that we've opened up to the world of secular music and how we interact with that during worship as well, because a lot of secular songs do speak in some ways to a very spiritual to spirituality and what that means.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: And it talks about love and it talks about all these kinds of concepts that are, that run parallel to being a Christian.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: And so that's also been interesting to, to see as the openness of music, but I also wanted to lift up this and I've often seen this in the church that, especially in more progressive churches, that hymns are kind of elevated over this type of Christian music that we're kind of talking about this like pop rock kind of thing.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: And there is kind of this judgmental ness to anything that's not a hymn or anything.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: That's not yeah.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Quote, traditional ways of doing music within worship.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Like some people are him snobs, and I will we'll say that, but there's also hams that are very problematic.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are hymns that are written that are, that have very hurtful theologies and them, there are hymns that were written during the time of enslavement in this country that speak to that in some ways that is very harmful and hurtful towards, uh, oppressed individuals.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: And so I do think that if we're going to have a critical eye toward music, we also have to have a critical eye towards all of it.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: And, and I don't want to, for us, for anybody listening to misunderstand that we're de Downing, uh, contemporary Christian music, because there is some out there that that is very powerful.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: And, and I think that is happening more and more.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are people who are writing Christian music now, and there are about their experience and that is happening.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And so I think we've opened up a whole other place in this John rhe, but I also think there's this, there's this kind of, um, uppity elite is, um, sometimes in churches that don't take other forms of music seriously, if it's not a ham and we don't also have a critical eye towards our hymns and what we are also, uh, listening to, because I grew up, we didn't have an Oregon, we didn't have that kind of mentality towards him.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: So he's saying old gospel hymns, and I was raised Presbyterian.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: And a lot of Presbyterians are like that in rural areas.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: They don't have an Oregon it's all piano or guitar or bluegrass bands like, and like rock bands and drums and electric guitars, like all these places, there's all types of different ways to, to speak about this kind of music.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: And so I think we all need to be more open, but also always have kind of a critical eye towards what's going out there lyrics, uh, and the meaning behind them,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: The music too.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: It's uh, the standard is not only being applied to one, one form of music or the way that we're expressing our faith and worship or just, you know, in our headphones and on our music players.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Um, I, that as someone who also, I like contemporary Christian music, I do, I like contemporary Christian services.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I like that they're different from traditional services.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: And I appreciate that.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: You said there are, there are issues with hymns and their lyrics.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, how many, this is the, I don't know what version we are on of the Presbyterian Jimeno, but it got revised to make language more inclusive.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: So that's just an example of trying to improve traditional music in the same thing.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: And he said there are ways to improve, uh, the more sort of contemporary Christian music as well.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Um, but at the end of the day, it's the purpose that it serves for you and for your community.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: And that's going to be up to, to your church to decide if it doesn't harm.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And we're critically thinking about it.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: That's the important part and whatever kind of judgmental attitude you have toward the contemporary world and Christian music.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: There are some things out there that, that don't harm and are beautiful.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: And, um, if we have to put some of those links in the show notes, we will
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: [inaudible].
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: So we are very lucky to have a special guest joining us today.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: The Reverend Ashley Goff pastor at Arlington Presbyterian church in Arlington Virginia, is here to talk with us today to answer a question about church buildings.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: So the question is, how important is the church building?
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: In what ways do our buildings complicate or disrupt the ministry or enhanced ministry?
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Ashley, what do you think?
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of things about this really important question, Simon, thank you.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: So I'm Ashley Goff.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: I'm the pastor at Arlington Presbyterian church in Arlington, Virginia.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: And I've been at APC for about two and a half years.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: And in 2016, APC sold its land and building two Arlington partnership for affordable housing, which is a nonprofit in Arlington County that builds affordable housing.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: So there is no housing authority in the County.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: So all affordable housing is
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: That's built, is done through partnerships, local partnerships of nonprofits, partnership with tax credits and other financial wizardry.
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: So they made this decision in 2000, they made the decision to sell the land and the building to APPA after by the ten-year discernment process.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: And the survey process came out kind of this question of who are we to our neighbors?
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: How do we want to show up to our neighbors?
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: And what's the role of the building.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: The building was becoming as many church buildings, just cumbersome and so much time and energy and money was being spent, being a landlord, making repairs who's going to do what just the it
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: Wasn't their priority about that's not how they wanted
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: To spend their time.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: It's not how they wanted to be a faith community.
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: You know, when you spend
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: All your time worrying about when the next flood is,
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: That's not much of a vision as, as people of faith.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: So they went out into the neighborhood as part of their discernment process, and they talked to the neighbors, they rode buses, they set up tables and parking lots in their parking lot.
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: They walked up and down the streets.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: They did all types of things to engage with the neighbors and ask them basically, how are things going?
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: Things have changed along.
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: What's called Columbia pike, which is one of the main commercial drags in the County.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: And by change mean gentrified.
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: We are in our zip code two, two, two Oh four is, has the highest density of black indigenous people of color in the County.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: And also the highest density of low middle wage workers.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: And the common response that they were hearing was people couldn't afford to live and live and work in Arlington County.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: And people wanted to be able to have the choice to do both.
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: So people are driving 30 miles, you know, driving these horrendous commute to the DMB, to work in the County.
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: And that just broke their hearts.
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: That's what the, that's what the congregation will say.
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: Those stories broke their hearts.
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: And so the part of the story also goes, is that the call from God to do something about affordable housing was bigger than the previous building itself.
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: So the building had to go and the building went and in 2018 Gilliam place was created Gilly places named after Rhonda Gilliam, the first African-American elders at Arlington Presbyterian and a real community activist.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: So Gilliam place is 173 unit affordable housing apartment building that is now on the land that was previously owned by Burlington Presbyterian.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: Uh, we came in and this is when I came on, came on board when I was called here.
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: Uh, we are now on the entry-level of Gilliam place.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: So our worship and office space, we have 3,500 square feet of worship and office space on the entry level of dealing in place.
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: And, and the congregation decided to do that in order to maintain its commitment to the affordable housing crisis in Arlington County, and to be in community with our hundred or so neighbors that are above us in the, in the apartment building.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: So
• 23:48
  Speaker 6: This is a pretty well, the other part shoes
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: Is part of the process.
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: APA, the nonprofit developer realized that they, they weren't gonna use about 12,000 square feet of the, of the land is part of the build out the building of the apartment building and, and the church APC got wind of that.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: About three or four days before APA was going to sell the land to a for-profit developer.
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: That was going to build what I say to arts and crafts style McMansions for two single family homes that probably would be worth over a million dollars.
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: Each the church got wind of that and bought the land back from APA.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: So I say it's in the fastest decision-making process in the history of the Christian Church,
• 24:31
  Speaker 6: They, what they did is they bought
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: The green, the green space back, and they created a garden for you to come and rest your soul and find respite in a very busy world.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: So that is land that we own, and we rent our interior space.
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: The church did not want to own the interior space.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: Really didn't have an option because this is retail space, but they were very clear.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: They did not want to own any more interior space again.
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: So we are on a 10 year lease with APA with the first right of refusal for another 10 years.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: So ultimately kind of a 20 year, a 20 year lease.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: So
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: I think this question is really important, and I think it's really important
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: Now considering where we are in the pandemic, that most people, you know, we were in our, our brand new space, million dollar build out, and we were here for months and then COVID kicked us out.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: And if there's any church that nimble enough to know to leave and not gather for the sake of the safety of your neighbor, it's APC.
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: But this is I think a really important question now because people have been gone from their buildings for so long.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: And what will it be like to return?
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: And what kind of posture do you show up in, in your building and what does this brick and mortar mean now that, that you've been gone and been able to maintain your ministry?
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: I shall assume.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: And how has it reshaped how you see yourself in your neighborhood?
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: So to kind of take this back, I mean, if there's one bone I have to pick with the Christian Church, I have lots of bones to pick with the Christian Church.
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: One of them is Constantine.
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: It's been a little
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: Downhill since this guy, but when Constantine had this amazing revelation that the church, the Christian faith should be infused into the Imperial religion, that's when things drastically shifted right across the board.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: And that includes property.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: That includes what houses of worship look like.
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: So you went from the house church, the early church view view of everything is held in common.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: We are here for the sake of each other.
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: We are the body of Christ, which means equity, which means we share.
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: We pray.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: We do all things as, as equals Constantine, absolutely ravaged that.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: And the buildings became palaces, right?
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: And the, the interior architecture became fit for a King.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: And the clergy became reckless.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: You know, they embodied that kingship.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: And so a lot of our buildings, now we can say, Oh, you know, this is reformed architecture, certainly.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: And that has been inherited architecture of the empire sense Constantine.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: So when we step into our buildings, we step, you know, if our architecture holds value, it replicates and symbolizes value, our buildings symbolize what we value and that can be hierarchy.
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: It can be, um, the intellect, it can be the clergy.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: It can be things that I think are antithesis to what it means to love your neighbor.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: And if our buildings are to be symbolic and actual experiences of love and intimacy and community, not only as the congregation, but with the priority, being the neighbor, then, then what are our buildings communicating to us, to our neighbor?
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: And what does it mean to consistently step inside these places?
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: And so if we have our theology of neighborliness and we have our spaces of imperialism, those are in conflict with each other.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: And I think they put us in conflict with ourselves.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: So when you have churches that are arguing over, you know, what the building looks like, the paint, the, the wiring, the, the waters, you know, these things that you need to have conversations about.
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: If you're going to hold onto it and an ancient building, those conversations put us, I think, create, they do create conflict and they create, uh, a real existential conflict.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: If our mandate, which I believe is, is to love our neighbor as ourselves.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: And that, then we're inherently just going to be embodying these con these conflictual ways.
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: So, I mean, if you take Constantine, you skip it ahead a few thousand years.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: Um, you know, you get to, you get to colonization, you get to Europe coming and colonizing, uh, native land.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: And I, and I think the latest, one of the latest, um, Supreme court decisions around worship during COVID that said that basically the Supreme court said that virtual worship wasn't sufficient, which is a theological comment, which is inappropriate.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: Um, but they said that, yeah, you can go back into your buildings because this is where faith happens.
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: And I think that's a really colonized view of the faith.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: And I think that's what happens to us as we consistently step into these buildings as if they're the only place where God happens, right?
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: That's a very contained view of God.
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: It's a very contained view of ourselves, and that's just not how God works.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: And then we've kind of latched on to these buildings in a very idolatrous way.
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: And in a way that doesn't, you know, Simon and lead doesn't reflect who we are, that we are made from dust.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: And to, we shall return, we are going to die.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: The joke, no one gets out of here alive.
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: Um, no one gets out of here alive.
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: We're going to return to the earth.
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: We are impermanent.
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: Yet.
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: We create buildings that are just locked down in every way possible.
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: And that doesn't reflect who we are either and how we've been created by God, you need a place, you need a place, you know, a place does it forms identity, it builds community.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: So a place is really important.
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: So it's not like you blow up your building and then you just kind of worship wherever.
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: And, you know, it's very, you know, you want to worship in a very contextual place.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: And that's, what's so important is that so many of our places just Constantine created this uniformity, right?
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: And empire and power structures love uniformity.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: But so you want to have something that really speaks to you and your time and place those people who built your building whenever your building was built.
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: You know, when Arlington Presbyterian was built in the early 19 hundreds as a very traditional steepled looking congregation, they weren't thinking of us in 2020 10, 15, 2020, because they couldn't write.
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: They just, they knew their own time in place.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: And that was their expression of the face of the faith in the time.
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: And so I think it's almost dishonoring of the past to think that what we have is, is a static unders you know, is to say that the faith is static.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: The building is static, and therefore the building shouldn't change.
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: I just think it does a dishonor to the past and to our ancestors who have shown up, especially the, you know, the prophetic ones in, in ways that are incredibly contextual.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: So I think to, to those that are having the conversation, you indeed have the conversation.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: And I know a lot of, there were a lot of conversations at APC.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: There was a tremendous amount of conflict at APC with this.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: And, and, and people will speak to that.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: That's not like a secret and people, a lot of people said like, well, if the building isn't here and when I die, where will my funeral will be?
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: Where, where my mom's store, where will people go to remember me, remember me?
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: And those are incredibly the important conversations to have.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: I will say, that's not the reason to keep your building, right?
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: You want to be pastoral.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: You want to figure out how to grieve the loss of a building, the loss of, of memories, right.
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: And the church did APC did that.
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: And so it wasn't like, you know, the buildings got, it was, they did a tremendous amount of processing of what this building meant to them.
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: A lot of storytelling, right?
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: So those things are very important.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: I would say those things are not directives.
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: As my therapist says, emotions, aren't always directives.
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: And so we want to care for each other.
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: And we want to honor where people are.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: And I think the idolatrous ways that we hold on to our buildings just has to end, that has to die in order for us to be resurrected.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: And God wants nothing more for us than to be resurrected.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: And I think our buildings can really be holding us back for, in that spirit and promise of resurrection.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you to the Reverend Ashley golf for being here.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: And again, Ashley is the pastor of Arlington Presbyterian church in Arlington, Virginia, Ashley.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: It was so good to have you on the podcast.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: I say one more thing.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: We have a website now called in-care nation, which I can give you the link to.
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: And it's our new web.
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: It's a new website.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: It's not our PR it's not our, you know, our APC website, but it basically tells the story of APC and it gives a lot of resources to a congregation.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: So part of our call now is to be a guide and aid is to walk alongside people who are curious about what it means to transform a building.
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: So we are available for those conversations and know that this congregation used the experts to guide them to, they did not do this alone.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: This is not a task to do alone.
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: And there are people, there are communities out there that are willing to be with you.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: And so, uh, I'll give you that website, but no, that, that, that we are a resource in, in these types of, in these conversations, in the storytelling.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Awesome.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: And that'll be a part of our resource Roundup segment that we have on the show.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you for lifting that up.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: And again, thank you for being with us.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: We're really blessed to have you.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: [inaudible].
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: So now it's time for our resource Roundup segment and Simon is going to talk to us about the office of public witnesses, action alert system, which they send out when certain things happen and how we can get involved.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: So Simon, tell us about the office of public witness, which is in Washington DC, and it is a part of the PCUSA, uh, tell us about their action alerts.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Thanks Lee.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: So the PCUSA is off as a public witness has this great action alert system in place to help people contact their members of Congress, or even the president about key justice issues, urging them to action.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: People can sign up for the action alerts@votervoice.net backslash PCUSA backslash home.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: As of the time, this episode is being aired.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: There are alerts to contact president Biden to defend Palestinian human rights and ensure COVID-19 vaccine access, as well as urging members of Congress to support refugee resettlement.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: The way the action alerts work.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: You can sign up to receive action alerts from the office of public witness.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: And when a key bill or issue is up for discussion or being considered.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: The great thing about the action alerts system is that it provides a prefilled message.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: All you need to do is type in your information.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: So it is sent to the appropriate member of Congress that represents you.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: It's very simple and easy to use.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: There are also alerts that are not related to federal bills and campaigns.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: These are focused on current events and justice issues.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Most recently, an alert was sent out titled gun violence must end in response to the shootings in Atlanta, outlining the need to address gun violence in the United States.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: It also includes a list of recommended actions, resources, and links to help you prevent and address gun violence.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: The previous action alert before that outlined and called out the increase of violence and racism against Asians.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: And Asian-Americans, since the pandemic began, it outlines the importance of ending anti-Asian racism and ways to address it.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: So again, we encourage you to sign up for these action alerts.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: They are very informative and easy to use.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: So go to voter voice.net backslash PCUSA backslash home and sign up now.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Thanks Simon.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: And yeah, all of those links will be in the show notes, which is going to be attached to this episode of the podcast.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: And so it will be an easy click away for you to take part in these action alerts.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: So thanks to the office of public witness for all that they do, and for ways in which we can all get involved.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: So thanks for talking about that, Simon
• 37:16
  Speaker 7: [inaudible].
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: This has been the matter of fate podcast brought to you by the Presbyterian peacemaking program and Unbound.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: If you would like to submit a question for discussion, you can do so@eightpodcastsatpeaceusa.org, we look forward to hearing from you, see you next time.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Thanks everyone.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: See you next time.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Thanks for watching episode six of a matter of faith, a Presby podcast.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Don't forget to subscribe at your favorite podcast platform of choice,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And don't forget to leave us a review.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: It helps us bring you more faith-based content like this.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: We hope to see you next time.