Latest / Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast / PODCAST: Episode 725 - Jarboe on The Reissue of “Disburden Disciple” on Vinyl, and Her Many Vocal Styles

Transcript

PODCAST: Episode 725 - Jarboe on The Reissue of “Disburden Disciple” on Vinyl, and Her Many Vocal Styles · Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast

• 0:00
  This was never on any kind of a label.
• 0:02
  It was completely DIY. It was and I was doing this I
• 0:06
  guess ahead of my time. I did a couple of albums like
• 0:08
  this. They were self produced, self
• 0:10
  manufactured and available on my website.
• 0:13
  So this album has never had, you know, so-called commercial CD or
• 0:19
  vinyl release. So I'm pretty excited to have it
• 0:22
  and it's been beautifully remastered.
• 0:24
  So I'm very excited about it now being available.
• 0:27
  It's interesting because some of the people I talked to about
• 0:29
  what should I do do next? Because, you know, Circle did
• 0:32
  Sacrificial Cake, which is a very experimental psychedelic
• 0:35
  kind of an album. And this has more deliberately
• 0:39
  kind of poppy kind of things on it as well as kind of scary
• 0:44
  things. But this was some, some of my
• 0:49
  friends were like, well, this is, you know, your most
• 0:50
  accessible of everything you've ever done.
• 1:00
  Your music has followed me around various parts of the
• 1:02
  world. Even when I was in Czech
• 1:04
  Republic there was. Sorry, this is just a very quick
• 1:06
  digression before we get into the interview.
• 1:09
  There was an exhibition in Prague of music during communist
• 1:13
  times and they had various Flyers from shows that occurred
• 1:19
  during the time of the of the Iron Curtain.
• 1:21
  And one of the Flyers they had there was a show that you played
• 1:24
  with Swans in Bruno. I think it was in 19. 87 So I
• 1:28
  remember that. Yeah, I remember that show.
• 1:30
  Sure. So it's pretty wild.
• 1:31
  You know, they had like videos of Tina Turner and Depeche Mode
• 1:34
  mentioned and then there was you and Swans and I thought, there
• 1:37
  you go. The people that actually made
• 1:39
  the effort to to go further E during those times.
• 1:42
  Pretty wild, I'm sure. Yeah, that was really an
• 1:45
  incredibly enlightening experience to go.
• 1:48
  Yeah, I remember all of that so vividly.
• 1:51
  And, and, you know, a lot of people put their lives on the
• 1:54
  line for us because we are kind of, you know, illegally there,
• 1:58
  unauthorized there. And rolling into Prague was
• 2:03
  quite an experience. And we had a sound man, Jack
• 2:06
  Belchin, who managed to talk his way to, to get us through the
• 2:11
  border. And it was, I'll never forget
• 2:14
  rolling in there and seeing the flags on the buildings.
• 2:17
  And we, we were kind of shuttled around, you know, different,
• 2:21
  different people that were helping us.
• 2:23
  And these are people, they were academics, but they had been
• 2:27
  kind of blacklisted. So they were St. cleaners, but
• 2:29
  they were, you know, pH DS. So.
• 2:33
  Yeah. And then we did a show.
• 2:34
  It was an underground show and a cellar that was very
• 2:37
  interesting. And Prague.
• 2:38
  And. But yeah, that that whole
• 2:40
  experience was unbelievable. Of course, it was Yugoslavia
• 2:43
  before we came to Slovenia. And it was, it was really an
• 2:46
  enlightening time for me. And, you know, going along with
• 2:49
  that, I was a hardcore, you know, basically a vegan.
• 2:53
  And so, so we where there was really nothing for me to eat or
• 2:57
  drink. I drank an orange soda pop, you
• 3:00
  know, and I got really ill at the end of that tour because,
• 3:02
  you know, the guys were eating sausages and potatoes and stuff
• 3:06
  and I was eating basically just the potatoes.
• 3:10
  And then we, we played this place.
• 3:11
  It was a hotel at one time on the, on the beach.
• 3:14
  It was quite beautiful and and there was no one there.
• 3:19
  We ate in this formal dining room and I remember they had
• 3:22
  lesseur like canned peas on the on the menu.
• 3:24
  I was very excited to have those because I was I, I was really
• 3:28
  longing for fruits and vegetables.
• 3:30
  Yeah, I think when I lived in Prague, which wasn't so long
• 3:32
  ago, they had definitely made things more adjusted towards
• 3:35
  people that had, you know, various different dietary
• 3:38
  requirements. But I can imagine that back in
• 3:40
  the day there was a lot of meat, too much vegetable.
• 3:43
  Yeah, I got really ill. I got pneumonia.
• 3:45
  It was quite interesting, but we were just talking about this
• 3:47
  recently. Recently when I saw Michael,
• 3:50
  when Swans played here in Atlanta, they played and I went
• 3:54
  to the show just basically to see the guys that I knew more
• 3:57
  than anything else. And we were talking about that
• 3:59
  tour and we also talked about it in Berlin when I played played
• 4:03
  the same venue as Michael in 2022.
• 4:07
  We were talking about all the, the, and he had gone vegan.
• 4:11
  And I said, well, remember when I was doing that and touring and
• 4:14
  I got really ill and he said, yeah, you got pneumonia.
• 4:16
  And I was like, well, you have to cut now.
• 4:18
  I've learned to kind of go with the flow.
• 4:21
  So when I, when I do concerts now, I say, what is regional,
• 4:26
  what's available here now? And that's, you know, I don't
• 4:29
  ask for anything that makes anyone stressed out.
• 4:34
  Adapt to your environment. Yes, exactly.
• 4:36
  And that's the way, that's the way it should be, yeah.
• 4:38
  Now Jabo, before I before I continue this any further, I
• 4:41
  better do a very quick introduction and then we can get
• 4:44
  into it. So this is Tom for Ghost Cult
• 4:46
  and it is a a personal pleasure for me to introduce our guest
• 4:50
  today. She first came to prominence in
• 4:52
  the 80s and 90s, playing on some of the most iconic of Swans
• 4:56
  albums like Children of God and White Light from the Mouth of
• 4:59
  Infinity, and from the mid 90s she has had a rich, varied and
• 5:04
  prolific career as a solo artist.
• 5:06
  I like to think that I'm quite familiar with a reasonable
• 5:09
  amount of her work, but I believe there's about 50 solo
• 5:11
  records give or take. And we are particularly here
• 5:14
  today to talk about Disburden Disciple, which is getting a 25
• 5:18
  year anniversary reissue through the Circle Music, originally
• 5:22
  released in 2000 and coming out on vinyl for the first time.
• 5:25
  Double vinyl, in fact, double orange or red vinyl, I believe.
• 5:29
  And with all of that introduction, my guest is Jarbo.
• 5:32
  Jarbo, thank you so much. For joining, well, thank you,
• 5:35
  thank you. I will add that this was never
• 5:37
  on any kind of a label. It was completely DIY.
• 5:41
  It was and I was doing this I guess ahead of my time.
• 5:43
  I did a couple of albums like this.
• 5:45
  They were self produced, self manufactured and available on my
• 5:49
  website. So this album has never had a,
• 5:52
  you know, so-called commercial CD or vinyl release.
• 5:57
  So I'm pretty excited to have it and it's been beautifully
• 5:59
  remastered. I'm very excited about it now
• 6:02
  being available. And yeah, it's interesting cuz
• 6:06
  some of the people I talked to about what should I do next?
• 6:08
  Cuz Circle did Sacrificial Cake, which is a very experimental
• 6:13
  psychedelic kind of an album and this has more deliberately kind
• 6:19
  of poppy kind of things on it as well as kind of scary things on
• 6:24
  it. But this was some some of my
• 6:28
  friends were like, well, this is, you know, your most
• 6:29
  accessible of everything you've ever done.
• 6:31
  So I guess, although this also has a back story of, of a lot of
• 6:40
  intensity to it, which is why it's called disburden disciple.
• 6:44
  And when I went to Israel to record and I at one time was
• 6:49
  living inside Damascus Gate in Jerusalem.
• 6:52
  And anyway, Long story short, I got in, I was at the wrong place
• 6:56
  at the wrong time and there was a conflict and I got hurt.
• 7:01
  And so I recorded a lot of sounds when I was there,
• 7:06
  environmental sounds. So I think that kind of comes
• 7:10
  full circle with the track Pure War, which basically is about,
• 7:15
  it's about the war of the heart more than anything else,
• 7:17
  although it does have the sound of rolling tanks and that kind
• 7:20
  of thing going on. So the disburden is in every
• 7:24
  single in the theme of every song is a, is a type of of
• 7:28
  seeking to unburden one of, of some kind of either
• 7:33
  psychological or physical intensity.
• 7:36
  So pure War was the whole album was ultimately, you know, coming
• 7:42
  full circle of recovering from that incident.
• 7:46
  And they had a concert in New York to raise money for surgery
• 7:49
  and all this stuff. So, so, so it's a, it was a very
• 7:53
  intense, you know, experience all of it.
• 7:57
  Well, that's fascinating. I had no idea about that, that
• 8:00
  the physical trauma that was attached to the album.
• 8:02
  I wanted to to share some of my feelings about the album and my
• 8:07
  interpretation to the album and find out from you whether my
• 8:11
  take on it resonates with you or if this sort of like coincides
• 8:14
  or corresponds with your feelings about the album or or
• 8:17
  how much when you made it so. And I may be wide of the mark,
• 8:20
  but you can tell me if I am. So I feel like the your previous
• 8:24
  album, Anadoniak is one of your most intense and harrowing and
• 8:29
  distressing albums, which is perhaps not surprising giving
• 8:33
  the time that it was made. And I feel like, I mean, it's
• 8:37
  also one of my favorite albums of yours going from that time
• 8:41
  into Disburden Disciple, you know, to your point that it has
• 8:46
  some of your popular music on it, but definitely it's not all
• 8:49
  poppy. And I feel there's a little bit
• 8:50
  of like a kind of a, there's almost like a bit of a Trojan
• 8:53
  horse element with this bird and disciple because it starts off
• 8:55
  it's very sensual. There are these kind of like
• 8:58
  alternative rock poppy elements to it.
• 9:01
  Some of it's quite funky as well.
• 9:03
  But I also notice, you know, when I, the more I listen to the
• 9:06
  album, the more I think about the lyrics, I feel like there
• 9:08
  are certain dichotomies in it. There is sensuality and you
• 9:11
  know, sort of maybe in a way as a, as a contrast to this
• 9:15
  statement of Anadoniak of a failure to experience pleasure.
• 9:19
  To me, Disperning disciple is kind of a recognition of
• 9:23
  pleasure and sensuality and Eroticism, but a recognition
• 9:26
  that it's bound up with pain. Absolutely.
• 9:30
  I mean, there's there's a line about, you know, vulnerability,
• 9:35
  you know, opening yourself up and the price that you pay for
• 9:39
  that connection is the ability to inflict and receive pain.
• 9:44
  So yes, you're absolutely right about that.
• 9:46
  And and so, but yeah, Bound was deliberately funky and then
• 9:51
  moving on to kind of a reference to 70's rock at the end.
• 9:55
  And there's even a reference to the Stones there with the
• 9:58
  backing vocals that I'm doing there.
• 10:00
  And, and so so but dear 666, that's that was that's one of
• 10:07
  the tracks that I did along with scarification about what what is
• 10:13
  popularly known, I guess is the Stockholm Syndrome.
• 10:16
  So that's where you stay involved in a relationship or a
• 10:19
  situation where you're, you're in love with your captor, you
• 10:22
  know, you fall in love with your victimizer.
• 10:25
  And so that's a problem for a lot of people, male and female.
• 10:29
  So, so it's, it's so those, those tracks kind of touch on
• 10:33
  that. And then both of them are
• 10:36
  realizing that you put yourself in that position and you can get
• 10:39
  yourself out. So with scarification, you know,
• 10:42
  the only one who's who's responsible for this is, is me.
• 10:46
  So, so, so and then, you know, forgive is, you know, basically
• 10:53
  about a marriage and and and and Scorpion is a very sexy, sensual
• 10:58
  track. And that is, yeah, that's
• 11:02
  that's. Sexy and sensual, but also seems
• 11:05
  to involve death as well. Well, that's yeah.
• 11:07
  Or the potential for. Death.
• 11:08
  It's like seducing your lover but also potentially killing
• 11:11
  them. Yes, and it's it I think that's
• 11:13
  possibly as as erotic as I've ever gotten.
• 11:16
  And so you're absolutely correct.
• 11:19
  And the salt water dripping on this integrating curtain.
• 11:22
  So that's open to how you want to interpret that.
• 11:25
  And for me, that's talking about tears and crying.
• 11:29
  So I think that, you know, so, yeah.
• 11:32
  So that and then under a course was under was was written about
• 11:37
  the AIDS, the AIDS crisis and a friend who died.
• 11:40
  And so that was that was was about some trauma with the
• 11:44
  illness of a friend and seance is of course about a seance and
• 11:49
  about being accused of something.
• 11:52
  And when you so I think that I think your assessment is pretty
• 11:57
  good. Dear 666 is definitely
• 12:00
  referencing Blues, you know, my, my voice and the way I'm singing
• 12:04
  is referencing like a Blues binocular.
• 12:07
  So I was really happy with being able to do the different voices
• 12:11
  on this because obviously Anadoniak really has a range of,
• 12:15
  of voices, characters. And I mean, it's pretty much
• 12:19
  pulling out all the stops of what I could, you know, at the
• 12:23
  time was doing with my voice with Miss Mississippi was, you
• 12:26
  know, with the sound of the crickets in the background.
• 12:29
  And that was referencing, well, I was born there.
• 12:33
  So that was referencing, you know, memories of of, of, of
• 12:37
  Mississippi when I was a little kid.
• 12:38
  And, and I think that on this album, I'm also doing a lot of
• 12:42
  different, different voices and different, different, I guess,
• 12:46
  theater settings, you know, So I think that that this was but but
• 12:51
  ultimately, you know, this thing, when I originally had it,
• 12:54
  I was thanking one of the doctors who performed surgery on
• 12:58
  me. And I didn't add that to the
• 12:59
  vinyl reissue. But but I think that, you know,
• 13:05
  ultimately it kind of came to a head and and conceptualized with
• 13:10
  me after the incident in Israel, It kind of made everything come
• 13:13
  full circle about the pain involved in in intimacy.
• 13:17
  So on that I, I wanted to ask you about how you ended up in
• 13:21
  Israel and partly recording the album there.
• 13:22
  So this accident that you talked about in this physical trauma,
• 13:26
  where does that tie into in the timeline of the making of the
• 13:28
  album? I think possibly within a year,
• 13:34
  within a year of of the of the thing finally being finished.
• 13:38
  Also, it was after you'd finished the recording.
• 13:40
  Well, I had when I was there, I recorded sounds that go on to
• 13:44
  that went on to pure war so, but not the actual.
• 13:47
  Vocals Were all the vocals previously recorded before you
• 13:49
  were in Israel? Yes, the actual musicality and
• 13:52
  the vocal came after that trip. That's right.
• 13:55
  Right, okay, So what kind of, you know, apart from this
• 13:59
  physical trauma, which must have been a huge, I've had a huge
• 14:01
  impact on you, What? Well, why?
• 14:03
  Why did you go to Israel and what kind of impact do you think
• 14:05
  being surrounded in that culture had on on you and on your music?
• 14:09
  I was invited and I went over there to, to to work and to
• 14:13
  record. And in the same way like I did a
• 14:17
  trip to to Japan where I was invited to to come record and do
• 14:22
  concerts. And so it was just seem like,
• 14:26
  you know, something that would be enlightening and challenging.
• 14:30
  And so that was why I accepted it.
• 14:32
  And when I were there, it was a tremendous learning experience
• 14:35
  and I'm very grateful for it. And it was, it was kind of
• 14:40
  amazing to specifically to live inside Damascus gay.
• 14:44
  I was there for six weeks and, and it was, you know, very
• 14:49
  profound to realize that you were within 5 minutes of, of
• 14:54
  important locations for the three, you know, three of the
• 14:59
  great religions, you know, the entire world.
• 15:02
  And so I did, I spent time with all three of those places.
• 15:06
  You know, I went to the wall, I went to the Church of the Holy
• 15:09
  Sepulchre, I went to the Dome of the Rock.
• 15:11
  I am I really kind of immerse myself into to that side of
• 15:18
  things. And it was it was just
• 15:20
  incredible. I'll never forget going down the
• 15:22
  steps into the gate first time. And it was as an American with
• 15:28
  no experience in that part of the world yet I was, you know,
• 15:32
  pinching myself with the beauty because it felt like I was in a
• 15:36
  film set. And it was hard to believe like,
• 15:38
  this is real and these people are real.
• 15:40
  And this is all, you know, the, the, the, the reality of it, the
• 15:44
  life of it, the vibrance of it was absolutely stimulating and
• 15:49
  enlightening. I mean, it was just beautiful.
• 15:52
  It was so, so intense and so wonderful.
• 15:54
  I didn't want to leave. I just, I didn't want to go
• 15:56
  home. I just wanted to stay there
• 15:57
  forever. Yeah, yeah.
• 16:00
  I've never been to Israel, but I can imagine, like you say, being
• 16:02
  at that sort of cross section that has so much historical
• 16:06
  importance. Oh yeah.
• 16:07
  Powerful experience. Yeah.
• 16:09
  And then tour groups would be coming through.
• 16:11
  You know, it was just. But yeah, no, it was, it was
• 16:15
  interesting to go to all those. And then I went to Bethlehem.
• 16:18
  And I mean, I went to different places.
• 16:20
  I went to Ramallah and I went to different places.
• 16:23
  And, and it was so it was, it was informative and, and
• 16:27
  educational. And there's nothing like getting
• 16:29
  education first hand instead of, you know, singing on the news or
• 16:33
  reading about it in books. Absolutely, yeah.
• 16:36
  You touched on the fact that you're from Mississippi, and I
• 16:38
  was curious to ask you about your name because everyone, I
• 16:42
  would say fans of yours, we all know you as Jarbo, but your full
• 16:46
  name sounds French to me. What is the origin of your?
• 16:50
  Family. Well, the accent, the accent
• 16:52
  that we I pronounce that we is the accent is on the second
• 16:55
  syllable. So it's episode shabo, but no
• 16:57
  one ever pronounces it. That's fine.
• 17:01
  That's fine. Yeah, they were one of the first
• 17:05
  people that came over was I think he was a Lieutenant or
• 17:09
  something in the French military who's who's one of the settlers
• 17:13
  who came over. And yeah, so it goes back to to
• 17:18
  the South of the South of France.
• 17:20
  Yeah. And growing up, did you have all
• 17:22
  the relatives that were French speaking?
• 17:24
  No, by the time, I think by the time that I was born, I think
• 17:29
  that those people were weren't alive.
• 17:34
  And but I think that some of the food and, and, and things like
• 17:38
  that were, were still there. And then of course, my
• 17:41
  childhood, a lot of my childhood, we made trips to New
• 17:44
  Orleans because my mother and grandmother were born there and
• 17:47
  also my, my grandparents were, were married there.
• 17:51
  And so there's a, there's a connection with NOLA and, and I
• 17:55
  think that that is quite a European city really.
• 17:58
  And, and that, that the street performers, I've talked about
• 18:03
  this before, the street performers and all that kind of
• 18:06
  made a big impression on me as a wide eyed kid.
• 18:08
  So that probably had a lot to do with being attracted to
• 18:12
  performance. Yes.
• 18:13
  Well, you know, I've heard you mentioned before that when you
• 18:17
  first were exposed to the music of Swans that you thought of
• 18:21
  them as being like performance arts.
• 18:23
  And so to that point, I wonder, within your solo career, has
• 18:27
  that also been something that you've been interested in, You
• 18:30
  know, not really necessarily thinking of yourself as being
• 18:32
  just a singer or a musician, but actually a performance artist?
• 18:35
  This keeps changing and morphing.
• 18:37
  I think for a long time I kind of felt like I was, you know,
• 18:42
  like a service provider in a way because I would I would bring
• 18:46
  about a tub of catharsis in the audience.
• 18:49
  I did 1 tour where in Riga, Latvia, where where the audience
• 18:54
  was all on the floor and they started, you know, I mean, I
• 18:57
  looked at them and all of them had tears coming down their
• 19:00
  face. So I mean that to be that
• 19:02
  extremely effective, it was not necessarily the the goal, but
• 19:08
  yeah, I think, you know, you, you just, you just or try to be
• 19:13
  as honest and real as, as you possibly can.
• 19:16
  And so the effect that you have on the audience is, you know, is
• 19:21
  if you're sincere and you connect, you know, and, and I
• 19:25
  think, yeah, for sure, Miss Swans, for sure.
• 19:29
  I thought that's what I thought. And when I first met the band
• 19:32
  and, and was talking with Michael Draw, I, I did say that
• 19:38
  that was what I thought they were.
• 19:39
  And, and he and his typical fashion said, well, I think
• 19:44
  we're a rock band, you know, And of course, that is what he would
• 19:49
  say, of course, get to defuse it.
• 19:52
  But then, you know, there were times, especially at the end
• 19:55
  there in the group, when he would tell me to tone it down.
• 19:59
  I was being too theatrical when I would take center stage and do
• 20:02
  vocals. And then I had to reflect on
• 20:04
  that moment, you know, because I remember when I was behind the
• 20:09
  keyboard, we had our extremely harsh tours.
• 20:13
  I couldn't remember when he would be stripped down.
• 20:16
  There's photo photographic documentation of it.
• 20:18
  He would be completely nude and stripped down and being very
• 20:23
  theatrical. So I, I, I was kind of confused
• 20:27
  as to how he defined theater and how he defined what the line was
• 20:32
  where you would stop. And, and yeah, so I continue to
• 20:36
  think that there's a lot of, I, I saw the show, the Swan show in
• 20:42
  April last year here. And he was doing, you know, a
• 20:48
  lot of theatrical things there, like slapping his face really
• 20:53
  harsh repeatedly, like basically knocking himself out with his,
• 20:57
  with his own hands and then, you know, slapping his butt, you
• 21:01
  know, like really vigorously. So I mean, to me, those gestures
• 21:05
  are coming from a type of, to me, a type of a theater.
• 21:12
  And I know, I know who he's referencing when he does that.
• 21:16
  The the Kipper twins, I think is what they were called and, and
• 21:19
  they were a performance group 2 guys and they would like hit
• 21:26
  each other with their fists, you know, and even with their own
• 21:29
  fists. So I think that, you know, how
• 21:32
  you define theatrical performance, you know, it's,
• 21:35
  it's just kind of a, you know, it's just such a wide range.
• 21:42
  It's a big subject, you know. No, it's a fairpoint and there's
• 21:44
  not. I'm sure there's not a firm line
• 21:45
  between where just straight musical expression can become
• 21:49
  performance, So I'm sure there's a lot of overlap between the
• 21:51
  two. Well, the thing that the thing
• 21:53
  that I do too in my work is I'm basically involved in like an
• 21:57
  architect, like an engineer with Minute sound Files and Illusory,
• 22:03
  for example. That album took a year to make
• 22:06
  and it was just incredibly intense and, and using live
• 22:12
  recordings and then manipulating and putting them into an
• 22:15
  environment. And so the problem with when you
• 22:18
  are that way with your work is performing it live becomes a bit
• 22:24
  of a challenge because to really do it, it would require and
• 22:27
  basically an orchestra performance, you know, and, and
• 22:32
  so it's not I, I, I did tours, but it was just me and guitar or
• 22:36
  me and piano. And, and I think that to really
• 22:40
  isn't what I do is, is involving a lot of, you know, computer
• 22:45
  act, computer action. And so that's, that's still a
• 22:49
  challenge because I know the agency wants me to get out there
• 22:52
  and tour alone. And I, I would be be happy to do
• 22:55
  that if I played acoustic guitar and just play keyboard and sang.
• 22:58
  But I don't do that. I do something really extreme.
• 23:03
  So it's it's, it's something I'm going to have to figure out,
• 23:06
  figure out how to present. Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:09
  I actually kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum
• 23:12
  from the Sonic aspects of what you do.
• 23:14
  I wanted to ask you about a recording that I've never heard
• 23:17
  anyone else ask you about My Delicate Beast, which is
• 23:20
  actually one of my favorite albums of yours.
• 23:22
  And I bought this from your website some time ago and the
• 23:25
  the version that I bought was just listed as side A and side
• 23:27
  B. So at the time when I listened
• 23:29
  through this I thought, I have no idea what these things are
• 23:30
  called, but as far as I know this is the only recording
• 23:34
  you've released which is all straight spoken word.
• 23:37
  From what I remember, there's no actual music on this and one of
• 23:41
  the tracks, if I've got the name right, that I found the most
• 23:44
  powerful on it, I think it comes right towards the end of the
• 23:46
  second side. I guess it's southern
• 23:47
  hospitality. You tell this very macabre
• 23:50
  story, and I've been fascinated ever since I heard it the first
• 23:53
  time to know how much this is based on reality and how much
• 23:57
  this is a made-up story. Well, that entire project was
• 24:01
  recorded in my closet, so I was just kind of whispering and kind
• 24:07
  of speaking inside the closet with the door closed.
• 24:11
  I think I've recorded that on a cassette, as I recall, a
• 24:14
  cassette recorder. So it's very, very, very raw.
• 24:19
  But I mean, I don't know. You mean in particular, What do
• 24:22
  you mean? Do you mean the graphic nature
• 24:24
  of it? Or do you mean the story of
• 24:26
  going into this house and finding something sinister in
• 24:29
  the basement? I thought how much was this
• 24:32
  based on real experience. Probably at the time that was
• 24:36
  when we were both Michael and we're both reading about, you
• 24:43
  know, serial killers. And we had a friend who was
• 24:46
  doing our artwork based on this. And so I think that I was
• 24:51
  probably, it was definitely imaginary, definitely fiction,
• 24:56
  but I tried to kind of liven it up with references to, to real
• 25:02
  things, you know? That makes a lot of sense
• 25:05
  because I think that was the thing for me is like, I thought
• 25:07
  it's it. This feels like some of these
• 25:10
  comments just seem very kind of casual and real, but that that
• 25:14
  makes a lot of sense that you kind of pepper those in there to
• 25:16
  make it feel more realistic. Yeah, well, you know the title,
• 25:20
  My delicate beast that comes from a note that Michael left
• 25:24
  for me and it said, would you, will you go for a walk with me,
• 25:27
  My delicate beast? And so it was a little note he
• 25:30
  wrote and left on the table. So, so I thought that oh that's
• 25:34
  really cool, my delicate beast. Another phase of your solo
• 25:41
  career I'd like to ask you about is the Men album, and in
• 25:46
  particular, so you have a range of really interesting
• 25:48
  collaborations on that album. But I wanted to ask you about
• 25:51
  your collaboration with Licks of Argyll from When Stutz and Denoi
• 25:54
  Button. Because I gather that before you
• 25:57
  made the decision to interview Michael Jira and ultimately you
• 26:01
  joined Swans, that you had this idea that you would either go
• 26:04
  and introduce yourself to Swans or in Stutzen to Neuibountain.
• 26:07
  So I'm curious to know what fascinated you with the latter,
• 26:10
  and whether or not Lixa Bargeld knew that story when you
• 26:14
  collaborated with him? I don't think he knows that.
• 26:16
  I don't think I've ever told him that, but I was listening to to
• 26:21
  them a lot during those days before I moved to New York and
• 26:27
  it seemed to me they there was a resonance there with what they
• 26:30
  were doing. And and then also the Filth
• 26:32
  album from Swans of because I hadn't heard anything quite like
• 26:36
  it before either either of those of those bands.
• 26:40
  And but yeah, no, I was very interested.
• 26:43
  I was going to at least attempt some kind of input or some kind
• 26:47
  of collaboration. And so I was going to go to
• 26:49
  Berlin. It was kind of if it didn't work
• 26:52
  out with New York. So, so yeah, so those are the
• 26:55
  two projects I was most interested in at the time.
• 26:58
  Of course, I was also listening to SPK and a bunch of other
• 27:02
  groups. But but this, those two were the
• 27:04
  most important at the time. Well, incidentally, I also
• 27:07
  talking of, of different inspirations, I have to, to
• 27:09
  thank you for having introduced me to Blue Beard's Castle and
• 27:13
  Popple Vu, because you did a piece for, I forget it was if it
• 27:16
  was the Guardian or the Observer a little while ago where you
• 27:19
  listed various important records.
• 27:20
  And I'd never actually listened to Popple Vu before.
• 27:22
  And it was because of that article I listened to them and I
• 27:24
  really fell in love with them. So so thank you.
• 27:26
  Yeah, yeah, no, they they you can hear when I you can hear
• 27:32
  some of the influence and some of the Swans music.
• 27:36
  It came from the Popple there with the with the acoustic and
• 27:41
  guitar and and so I think that I brought these albums up to New
• 27:45
  York with me. I brought a number of albums and
• 27:48
  but yeah, they, yeah, they were very important to me too.
• 27:51
  Papua, correct? So going back to disperse and
• 27:55
  disciple, I wanted to ask you something else, which is sort of
• 27:57
  probably to do with my my observations of different themes
• 28:01
  and and imagery in the album. I noticed that there are a
• 28:04
  number of different references to fire.
• 28:06
  And so that would seem to potentially suggest, you know,
• 28:09
  sort of destruction and rebirth. I wonder if was there an aspect
• 28:13
  of catharsis to disburden disciple that this was sort of
• 28:16
  in a sense, being creatively reborn?
• 28:19
  Yes, definitely for sure. And catharsis the, of due to
• 28:25
  extreme change and everything that was happening in my life at
• 28:29
  the time. And that's again why, you know,
• 28:32
  I the, the title, that's again, the the reason for the and and,
• 28:37
  you know, to be a disciple of constantly trying to undo the
• 28:41
  damage and to move forward. And and there was a lot of, I
• 28:45
  guess conflict going on in my life during, during this.
• 28:49
  And so, yeah, for sure, you're absolutely right.
• 28:52
  The fire is right is deliberate. Yeah.
• 28:54
  And going back to some of what you were talking about with your
• 28:59
  performances, so having come from being in Swans where this
• 29:02
  was very much Michael Jira's vision and he might, you know,
• 29:05
  have certain comments about different people's performances.
• 29:08
  Did that, did that take you some time to sort of get the
• 29:12
  confidence or the sort of understanding of what your own
• 29:15
  creative voice and vision was going to be both on record and
• 29:18
  on stage after that, once you left Swans?
• 29:20
  The confidence came pretty early on and I was allowed to, you
• 29:26
  know, run with it as it were on the studio and on stage to a
• 29:30
  degree. But I think with the input of
• 29:34
  like telling other musicians what to play and being involved
• 29:38
  in the arrangements and this kind of thing, it it was
• 29:42
  definitely an excellent learning experience and, and the
• 29:45
  privilege of working in these studios, these big studios with
• 29:48
  reel to reel tape and all that. That was something that a lot
• 29:52
  of, you know, most artists don't even do anymore.
• 29:54
  I mean, so so I think that this was all education, but I would
• 30:00
  say the last tour for me with I crawled that really opened up
• 30:07
  the gate with with what I could do in in in terms of just one,
• 30:12
  one song to do all those multiple voices.
• 30:16
  And because it was at the time going to be the last tour, I
• 30:22
  kind of didn't homage at the end with my voice going into the sub
• 30:27
  voice, the sub genre, the the death metal voice, you know
• 30:30
  that. And all this was done.
• 30:32
  And then and then I had the lost the lost girl.
• 30:36
  And so it's a, it's a whole tableau of, of it's basically a
• 30:40
  gut wrenching tableau. And that was, I consider that to
• 30:45
  be my greatest vocal performance the entire time I was in Swans.
• 30:50
  And I think that, you know, the finding the voice, say doing the
• 30:55
  cover version of Black Eyed Dog and finding that voice and when
• 30:58
  she breathes, finding that voice, both of them are
• 31:00
  referencing Southern vernacular. And in the studio would be
• 31:05
  interesting. Like I would bring out these
• 31:07
  voices and then the good thing about working with with Michael
• 31:12
  would, but he would say, you know, take it further, you know,
• 31:16
  take it even further. And so, like, for example, when
• 31:19
  we did level tear us apart, you know, the second verse was
• 31:22
  great. Now go back and do the first
• 31:24
  verse in that same place. And so that kind of push, you
• 31:30
  know, is, is very important and it helps you to kind of find
• 31:35
  what you can do and to find your own, your own voice.
• 31:39
  And I, I'm actually grateful for that push because the, that's
• 31:42
  really important for any performer to have the director,
• 31:47
  the producer, the you know, that the person who's pushing you to,
• 31:51
  to do your best. Yeah, and maybe pushing you into
• 31:54
  areas that you either wouldn't have thought of or you wouldn't
• 31:56
  thought yourself capable of. Yeah, and, and and then of
• 31:59
  course there were, there's a lot of conflict too.
• 32:01
  I mean, you know, you figure at a certain point, you know, you
• 32:04
  know what you can do and you know who you are and you know
• 32:07
  you're what you're able to do and then to be given direction
• 32:13
  at that stage when you've been doing it for years back.
• 32:16
  And that used to be something that would kind of bristle me a
• 32:20
  little bit because I'd be like, I know exactly how to deliver
• 32:23
  this. So to so the good the freeing
• 32:26
  thing about being your own critic is knowing how far to
• 32:31
  take it and then when to take it back.
• 32:33
  So now I know when something is needs to be rolled back.
• 32:38
  And so it's, I know, I know with illusory, with the, the, the
• 32:43
  version of man of hate that I did on there, one of the
• 32:47
  reviewers commented on how it was just using a voice with no
• 32:50
  effects whatsoever. And so yes, that was the point
• 32:53
  They got it. It was just being completely
• 32:55
  real, completely, you know, nothing EQ just completely rot
• 33:00
  out of the gate. And and so that kind of drove
• 33:04
  home that this was not being theater.
• 33:07
  This was making a real commentary on, on this, on the
• 33:10
  topic and that that person changes from time to time.
• 33:16
  And when we performed that in 2022, PM Merson Williams and I
• 33:21
  went on the tour. We, I, we did that.
• 33:23
  We did that track. Am I getting pop ups?
• 33:26
  We did that track and OK, you know, and it was, it was very
• 33:31
  extreme because at the end it's, you know, I'm, I'm the man of
• 33:35
  hate. And so it's a, we are all the
• 33:37
  man of hate. We've enabled this dictator.
• 33:40
  So it was it was so, so that's an example of when you know when
• 33:45
  to roll it back and to to just be a completely, you know,
• 33:49
  conversational with your voice. Yeah, well, on.
• 33:52
  On that kind of technical. No, it's fascinating on, on that
• 33:57
  topic of your different voices because that is one of the
• 33:59
  things that you are, I would say most well known for is the
• 34:02
  variety of different voices that you have and the range that, you
• 34:05
  know, like you mentioned, even within one song within one
• 34:08
  performance, was there anything in particular, You know, you
• 34:10
  mentioned that in Anadoniak that had some of your most difficult,
• 34:13
  some of your most extreme performances within Disparate
• 34:15
  and Disciple because there is still, like I say within you
• 34:18
  know, even individual tracks, some quite sharp variety of your
• 34:21
  performances. Was there anything there that
• 34:23
  was particularly challenging from either a technical or an
• 34:26
  emotional point of view in terms of the delivery?
• 34:29
  Probably. Of all those Kiss of Life is
• 34:35
  referencing deliberately a kind of a goth world, a gothic world.
• 34:41
  So that that was using a, a, a voice in particular for that,
• 34:46
  for that genre. And but in terms of also, I
• 34:52
  would say scarification, we did this.
• 34:54
  We did a show, we did a, a show in New York.
• 34:57
  We also performed it in Atlanta and in Chicago.
• 35:01
  And so we did scarification and that ending where, you know,
• 35:06
  it's basically a scream. So that's that was probably the
• 35:10
  most gut wrenching of all the of all the vocals on the on the
• 35:14
  scarification. Yeah.
• 35:16
  OK, that does make. A lot of sense I, I was
• 35:19
  wondering kind of in the opposite direction from what you
• 35:21
  were saying about Illusory and that being completely raw and
• 35:24
  not you actually embodying another character.
• 35:27
  You do have on the other side projects like Makali and Durga
• 35:33
  and her smile of Radiant Vengeance, where I think you are
• 35:35
  actually overtly embodying or channelling different figures,
• 35:40
  character spirits, if any of those are the right words.
• 35:42
  So I'm, I'm curious to know about this interest that you
• 35:46
  have in these kinds of creative performances.
• 35:50
  Well, that started. The Mahakali thing that started
• 35:53
  for me as a commentary on environmental destruction,
• 35:58
  global upheaval, and so everything was a metaphor for
• 36:03
  that. So for me, the the choice of of
• 36:06
  the collie figure was the creator destroyer.
• 36:09
  So it it comes to a head there with overthrown.
• 36:14
  And it's interesting because there's a reference there with
• 36:19
  Blixa and the Anadoniak and Ferrell, which Blixa did in that
• 36:24
  I wanted a rock star to do the voice of madness.
• 36:28
  And so I, I asked some people that I knew in that genre and
• 36:34
  not in the, in the rock God genre, but in the rock genre,
• 36:37
  and they said they mentioned Phil and Samoa.
• 36:40
  And so, so interesting back story with my colleague was when
• 36:44
  I talked with him on the phone and, and to, to work on Mahakali
• 36:50
  to, I wanted him to do overthrowing with no effects on
• 36:53
  his voice and to be very raw and, and not meddle in any way.
• 36:59
  And I told him this, that I'd wanted him to do the, the voice
• 37:03
  of madness that Blixa did on feral.
• 37:05
  And he had said, Oh, well, I would have done it, you know, in
• 37:08
  a heartbeat if you'd asked me. And the problem at the time was
• 37:12
  getting a hold of him. Yeah, I can imagine reaching.
• 37:15
  Out to. Him I had no, I had no, no line
• 37:19
  to get to him. So so it was interesting how he
• 37:22
  he winds up doing, doing the ever thrown and he did a great
• 37:26
  job on that. So but yeah, so that so that was
• 37:29
  for sure channeling, but channeling in my mind the the
• 37:34
  destruction and global destruction, the environmental
• 37:37
  upheaval of the entire planet. That was the that was the idea
• 37:40
  for me, right. OK.
• 37:42
  And Durga? Well, I started.
• 37:44
  Off on this this trail of the of these Hindu goddesses so so so
• 37:51
  that kind of they kind of are related, you know, because of
• 37:55
  the connection as being the the you know, the mother of the
• 37:59
  daughter. And so that's basically what
• 38:01
  what what led to that. And this is another.
• 38:04
  Do you have time for a couple more questions?
• 38:06
  Oh, sure, yeah. Great, this is another.
• 38:08
  Sort of incidental question, but I was listening to you being
• 38:11
  interviewed by Conan Neutron, who I've also interviewed.
• 38:16
  I think. I don't remember how recent it
• 38:17
  was. Maybe it was last year or the
• 38:19
  year before. Conan Neutron's Protonic
• 38:21
  Reversal was the podcast. This is a story that you've
• 38:23
  probably told to other people, but you were talking about how
• 38:27
  prior to collaborating with Neurosis, there was this one
• 38:33
  moment where you were driving your truck around and one of
• 38:36
  their tracks came on the radio and you mentioned something
• 38:38
  about it being a track with female vocals.
• 38:41
  And I was just curious to know whether that was raised astray
• 38:44
  from Enemy of the Sun with if you can remember what the track
• 38:47
  was. I'm thinking that.
• 38:49
  If the voice is on there, I'm pretty sure it may have been
• 38:53
  Chris Forrest. I don't know, but but singing,
• 38:56
  but I don't I don't remember, but that sounds right.
• 38:59
  OK, it sounds like it was, but yeah, I heard it on the radio
• 39:02
  and, and, and the voices, the female vocals with just the
• 39:08
  music, it was something that I immediately resonated with and I
• 39:13
  told Michael about it. And so we went to see them
• 39:15
  perform and that was how that friendship began.
• 39:18
  Was me hearing that song on the radio.
• 39:21
  Yeah. I mean it's.
• 39:22
  It's it's great to have that sort of powerful experience and
• 39:25
  then you get to meet the people and then you get to collaborate
• 39:27
  with them and perform. Yeah, that was I loved.
• 39:30
  Working with Emma on the album and then doing, we did 6 shows
• 39:33
  together and I, I loved every second of it.
• 39:36
  Yeah, it was. Really.
• 39:38
  Great. I've seen them play a couple of.
• 39:39
  Times live and it was incredibly powerful, which I have to say
• 39:43
  also as well, seeing you perform live was incredibly powerful
• 39:46
  too. The first time I saw you was in
• 39:48
  London when you were playing with I guess it was like a joint
• 39:51
  headline tour maybe with Esoteric, but when I saw the
• 39:54
  show you went on 1st and they run after it.
• 39:56
  It was actually for the Mahakali tour and that was my first time
• 39:59
  to see you on stage. And I remember it was one of
• 40:02
  those experiences where I was struck by your energy.
• 40:05
  And there's been a few different people that I've seen like of
• 40:07
  all random associations, Lemmy from Motörhead.
• 40:10
  I remember when I saw Motörhead, I thought like, wow, this person
• 40:13
  has some kind of incredible energy.
• 40:15
  And I felt, I'm not saying you had the same energy as Lemmy,
• 40:17
  but somehow there was a, there was a power just to seeing you
• 40:21
  on stage that I really felt. And I saw you again, although
• 40:24
  saw is perhaps the wrong word. I went to to listen to you in
• 40:29
  Prague a few years ago. You were playing somewhere
• 40:32
  around about Fruchanska. I can't remember exactly what
• 40:35
  year it was, but it would have been around about 2000 and 1918,
• 40:41
  I want to say. And it was a little venue
• 40:43
  downstairs, but there were so many people there that I
• 40:46
  basically, oh, I remember that. I couldn't see you at all but
• 40:50
  it. Sounded to me, I remember that.
• 40:51
  Show that was the tour where somehow I had the idea that I
• 40:56
  would go out into the audience every single show and I would at
• 41:01
  the end kind of becomes like a waltz, the music.
• 41:04
  And so I, I would go out into the audience and I would hug
• 41:08
  every single person, but, but I would look down with my hands
• 41:12
  down and look up at them to see if it seemed go away or, or I'm
• 41:18
  open to this. So I did kind of invite, you
• 41:21
  know, and sometimes it was a nebulous like I didn't know, I
• 41:24
  couldn't, couldn't read it correctly.
• 41:26
  And that, that particular show, I misread someone and they were
• 41:31
  near the back and I, I misread and and they were a a metal
• 41:37
  looking person, metal looking man, heavy metal.
• 41:40
  And he whoa. And I somehow I thought he was
• 41:45
  saying this is OK, so I did. And he was, his whole body was
• 41:50
  just trembling in a kind of a rage.
• 41:52
  Wow. And it freaked me out and I was
• 41:55
  like, OK. And then that was when I decided
• 41:59
  not to do that again. I thought, I thought, wow, you
• 42:02
  know, like you're kind of being, you're kind of being
• 42:05
  presumptuous here. You know, you're posing on
• 42:08
  people that they don't want their space to be invaded by
• 42:13
  you. But yeah, that happened at that
• 42:14
  that particular that's really interesting.
• 42:17
  Like I. Think I've heard you mention
• 42:19
  that story before, and I'd forgotten about it, but I was
• 42:21
  actually going to ask you about another performer who I had
• 42:25
  thought may have been influenced by you.
• 42:27
  And now that you've reminded me of that story, I think it even
• 42:29
  more. Kristen Hater in her Lingua Yota
• 42:33
  project. I saw her play a couple of years
• 42:35
  ago, and I think this was a feature of her shows very
• 42:38
  commonly, that she would go out at a certain point.
• 42:41
  And I think for her, it wasn't so much that she would really be
• 42:43
  sort of confronting the audience, but she basically put
• 42:46
  herself in this very vulnerable, vulnerable position right in the
• 42:49
  center of the crowd. And it would be a sort of kind
• 42:51
  of a personal, insular thing. But she put herself there with
• 42:54
  everyone around her. And I had wondered whether that
• 42:57
  was something that she may have been inspired by from seeing
• 43:00
  you. I don't know where you got that
• 43:02
  idea from yourself. To me it was just.
• 43:04
  Again, about vulnerability and trying to connect with the
• 43:09
  people. The tour, well, I did it in
• 43:12
  many, many tours, but the 2005, I think it was tour that which
• 43:19
  is around the Time of the Moon album that that one I remember
• 43:23
  in particular the London show. That was an incredible show that
• 43:29
  it had Oh my God, it had Justin Broadway performed as final and
• 43:35
  and and and members of Faust were there and it was really
• 43:39
  kind of an incredible evening. And so we did the track center.
• 43:45
  And so that one is of course, center is about a a prostitute
• 43:51
  and red light district getting murdered.
• 43:54
  And so, so this this song, I would go out into the room.
• 44:00
  And so I went and, and so it was interesting because I decided I
• 44:04
  really liked using the PA as a monitor.
• 44:07
  And so it's because you get the full sound of the audience is
• 44:10
  hearing. And so I went out into the and
• 44:12
  people were gathered around and that then for that particular
• 44:15
  performance, I would take the mic cord and I would wrap it
• 44:18
  around my neck and, and literally go down on my back
• 44:22
  with my knees underneath me and, and choke myself.
• 44:27
  Because at the end of the, you know, song, you know, she's
• 44:29
  going to choke, choke, choke. And so, so, so yeah.
• 44:32
  So I don't know who who saw me, but I did that many, many times,
• 44:37
  going right out into to the room and, and, and doing the vocals
• 44:42
  in the band would be on stage as the stars if they're on the
• 44:44
  stage, and that would be down there on the floor.
• 44:47
  And that was that was a really enjoyable.
• 44:51
  I I, I loved performing that way.
• 44:53
  And and, you know, no one ever hurt me.
• 44:56
  People would make a space, you know, and standing around and
• 45:00
  yeah, so I mean, I did that for years.
• 45:02
  So I don't know if who saw it or who could have been influenced,
• 45:06
  but that was part of part of what I did for a very, very long
• 45:09
  time. OK.
• 45:11
  Yeah, well, I guess. I'm pretty sure if you were
• 45:13
  doing that for a long time that that influence would have made
• 45:16
  little waves around the creative world.
• 45:19
  So thinking about the, the release of the of the reissue of
• 45:24
  Despair and Disciple, I've heard you talk with other people in
• 45:28
  the last couple of years about the disruption caused by COVID,
• 45:31
  you know, having to cancel tours.
• 45:33
  What is the current situation in terms of what you've got lined
• 45:36
  up for shows in support of this record or for you know, whatever
• 45:40
  other what you're going to put out in the next 6 months?
• 45:42
  Because it does seem to be every few months there's another Jarbo
• 45:45
  release. Well, sightings.
• 45:48
  Is complete and that's that is last I heard about that was
• 45:52
  they'd received the test pressing and sightings as highly
• 45:55
  experimental and highly and that that has star on it and that
• 46:03
  star is a red eyed vireo that I fell in love with this this
• 46:08
  little guy he he came he started performing for me on a branch
• 46:12
  off of the deck and I would go out every day and he would
• 46:15
  literally perform for me for 45 minutes a day and this went on
• 46:19
  for a very long time. So I decided to record this bird
• 46:22
  and I put him on and I was very happy with the way the recording
• 46:27
  came out and so I put him on the album.
• 46:28
  I love it. And.
• 46:32
  So I don't know how that's going to go down with anybody.
• 46:34
  But but but he's he's just so, you know, the very, the very has
• 46:39
  the biggest vocabulary of any bird in the world.
• 46:44
  And he hits like improv jazz. He never repeats.
• 46:48
  And experts have have people, some people have actually, you
• 46:53
  can research it, they've documented it.
• 46:55
  I don't know how they meticulously sat down and and
• 46:59
  notated how many, but hundreds of thousands and one
• 47:03
  performance, you know, one afternoon and never.
• 47:06
  And so this is what intrigued me about it was the fact that this
• 47:09
  was beyond musical. This this guy, and he's small,
• 47:12
  He's very small. So he's on the cover of the
• 47:15
  album too. And Phil Puglio, who is
• 47:18
  currently a member of Swans, he did the artwork and he actually
• 47:21
  drew a beautiful red Ivaria. So that's on the on this this
• 47:27
  painting actually is on the front of the album.
• 47:30
  So yeah, so that's done. But I would have been out there
• 47:33
  probably this spring except for the fact that I had to have a
• 47:39
  carpal tunnel release surgery in my wrist.
• 47:42
  And so that's healed then. So I can now that my wrist is
• 47:46
  back back in action, I can. I can.
• 47:50
  Yeah, yeah. So, but again, trying to figure
• 47:54
  out what kind of thing I want to present because in 2022 when we
• 47:57
  went out with the Lucas Joseph Van Lysen Joseph was was
• 48:03
  wonderful to tour with. And so in that particular show,
• 48:08
  I was using a MacBook Pro and then Peter was on electric
• 48:13
  guitar with effects. And so the entire performance, I
• 48:16
  was, you know, sitting behind the the computer.
• 48:19
  And then I did the show in Texas at a festival and I had Thor
• 48:24
  Harris, who was in Swans. And he he played various
• 48:29
  instruments for the show along with Peter.
• 48:31
  And then I was able to open the set by standing up and facing
• 48:34
  the audience because they were able to carry enough musically.
• 48:38
  So again, it's a matter of finding out if I want to go out
• 48:41
  there with the guitarist or piano player or, or, or how I'm
• 48:45
  going to present, you know, present, present the next one.
• 48:49
  But yeah, I do. I do, I want to do that a number
• 48:51
  of more times before I can't do it again.
• 48:55
  I want to see, I want to see what it's like now with the
• 48:59
  climate in Europe for Americans and, and then coming back into
• 49:06
  the country and all that because things have changed with the
• 49:09
  current administration. And so I, I, but I'm, I'm pretty
• 49:13
  fearless. So I think that it's pretty
• 49:15
  badly. Well, so, yeah.
• 49:17
  So I. Love, I love more than anything
• 49:20
  I love performing in Europe and I love performing in churches
• 49:24
  and alternative venues like art galleries and you know just
• 49:30
  unusual spaces and there are a lot of those in Europe and there
• 49:33
  aren't that many in this country.
• 49:35
  So this country that is very different touring wise, it's to
• 49:40
  me, it's, it's just not as as interesting.
• 49:44
  And I think I really am not interested in rock clubs
• 49:47
  anymore. So I think that I think that,
• 49:50
  you know, one of the great things about the 20/22/2022 tour
• 49:54
  was we did play very interesting old theaters, you know, like
• 49:58
  former theaters that turned into concert venues and we played a
• 50:02
  wonderful church in France. And so I think that, you know,
• 50:06
  if I can get into places like that, then I'll be very, very
• 50:09
  happy. Well, if I can speak for the
• 50:11
  whole. Of Europe, and I would say that
• 50:12
  we would love to have you back as soon as possible.
• 50:17
  Yeah, yeah. And and hopefully, you know, as
• 50:20
  long as you're yeah, people understand that you don't
• 50:23
  necessarily agree with things. I think that I, I, I think
• 50:26
  everyone's. Going to understand that for
• 50:27
  sure. Message understood so in general
• 50:30
  for people to keep track of the shows that you've got coming up
• 50:34
  and you know and releases etcetera.
• 50:35
  Is it best for people to go to Living Jarbo?
• 50:38
  Sign up for the newsletter there.
• 50:39
  Are you also putting updates on, I don't know, Instagram or Blue
• 50:42
  Sky, things like that. I would you.
• 50:45
  Know for sure. You know, in the past, I think
• 50:48
  we they were put up on the side as well as I have two Facebook
• 50:54
  pages on the so-called band page, business page, put them up
• 50:57
  there. But you know, and then of course
• 51:02
  you can, you can, I think you can add them to some of these
• 51:04
  sites, you know, like, you know, Spotify or some of the sites you
• 51:09
  can add, you can add them to that.
• 51:11
  I don't know. But yeah.
• 51:13
  So, so we'll see. But again, I definitely am am
• 51:17
  going to be facing that again and, and looking forward to it
• 51:21
  for sure. It would be great to to leave
• 51:23
  this country for a while too. I can understand that well.
• 51:28
  I. Will be, I will be looking out
• 51:29
  for a job. Oh, to see when you were next in
• 51:31
  my area, hopefully in the same country or at least in a country
• 51:33
  relatively near to me. And that's one thing about
• 51:35
  living in Europe is that, you know, to get from the UK to
• 51:38
  Germany or to get from the UK to France is actually, relatively
• 51:41
  speaking, it's not that far away.
• 51:42
  Yeah, that's true. That's true and I have friends
• 51:45
  there so. But you know I focus mostly on
• 51:49
  Europe now. I did play the dark mofo twice
• 51:53
  in Tasmania and that was also something I absolutely loved and
• 51:56
  that was another place I could have moved to.
• 51:58
  I absolutely loved Hobart. So yeah, well, now you've just
• 52:01
  reminded me. That you, you picked out at the
• 52:03
  very beginning that you recognized I was originally from
• 52:05
  Australia. So yeah, that's just come back
• 52:07
  to me. Yeah, Hobart is an.
• 52:08
  Incredible place. And the Museum of new, of old
• 52:12
  and new art. Mona, that is mind blowing.
• 52:15
  Have you been to the Mona? I have, yes.
• 52:17
  Yeah. Oh my God.
• 52:18
  So I love it there. Absolutely love it there.
• 52:22
  Yeah, I was actually just back over in.
• 52:24
  Australia just very recently because most of my relatives
• 52:26
  still live over there. So yeah, Albert Tucker, for what
• 52:29
  it's worth, he is the painter that I have fallen in love with.
• 52:32
  So that would be my, if I can offer you one suggestion of
• 52:35
  something to check out. Have a look at the art of Albert
• 52:37
  Tucker. OK, let me write that down.
• 52:39
  I will and if I can ask in. Return because I noticed I
• 52:43
  decided for no particular reason this year I was going to try and
• 52:46
  read a book a week and I've been managing to do it so far.
• 52:48
  And then I incidentally noticed that you mentioned you'd read
• 52:51
  like 100 books in the past year, and I thought, wow, well that my
• 52:53
  achievement seems less impressive now.
• 52:55
  So could you recommend me a book?
• 52:58
  Well, it depends on what. Subject you know you're
• 53:00
  interested in I mean, I I focus on on auto I like biographies,
• 53:07
  you know, autobiographies and I read a lot of I like.
• 53:10
  Autobiographies too. I read a lot of Buddhist.
• 53:12
  Buddhist books, Tibetan Buddhist books, I'm I'm I'm currently
• 53:15
  reading a book voice for the voices voice for the voiceless,
• 53:21
  and that's from the by the Dalai Lama.
• 53:23
  So I definitely recommend that. And it talks about the political
• 53:26
  situation and how that all unfolded with China invading
• 53:30
  Tibet. So that's a that's a book that
• 53:32
  I'm really enjoying right now. OK, it doesn't sound.
• 53:35
  Necessarily like the easiest bedtime reading, but it does
• 53:37
  sound worthwhile. Well, I've read both.
• 53:40
  Volumes of of the books about Paul McCartney.
• 53:44
  And so that's gonna it's like arrows of his life, the early
• 53:48
  era, the mid era. So that's also great because
• 53:51
  what's good about those is that it talks in depth about his how
• 53:57
  he gets certain effects on the studio and how and, and it's
• 54:01
  really interesting. It's very interesting.
• 54:03
  I didn't realize it would be as interesting and it is.
• 54:06
  It's fascinating. So yeah, the the two book 2
• 54:08
  latest books about Paul McCartney are, are something
• 54:10
  I've really enjoyed. I mean, my it's, it's very
• 54:14
  diverse. What I what I absorb, it's very
• 54:17
  diverse. And then you figure I post
• 54:20
  images of some of the physical books, but then I have a massive
• 54:23
  digital library as well. So, so I don't, I don't post
• 54:28
  images of those 'cause I don't quite know how to do it.
• 54:31
  But. But without doing a screenshot
• 54:34
  and a composite, you know, so, but yeah, so I'm getting ready
• 54:37
  to post new ones. But I, I kind of, I was very
• 54:42
  interested in fiction, you know, stories.
• 54:44
  And so now it's primarily, you know, stories about Buddhism or
• 54:49
  books about Buddhism or meditation and history and, and
• 54:54
  books about musicians and, you know, things like that.
• 54:57
  And so, so it's really all over the the map, you know, but I
• 55:00
  mean, it's very easy to read 100 books in a year.
• 55:03
  You just have to, you just have to, to focus and do it every
• 55:06
  day, just like exercising or meditation.
• 55:09
  You just have a time slot and you, you read.
• 55:12
  And I'd like to do it right before I go to sleep because it
• 55:14
  puts my mind into that world. Yeah, part of the reason why I.
• 55:17
  Started doing it is because I wanted to find a way to detach
• 55:20
  myself from the phone and the Internet and I thought this is
• 55:23
  going to be a good productive way of doing that.
• 55:24
  Yeah, no, I agree. And it's very unhealthy to to be
• 55:30
  focused on, you know, Instagram and, and, and all this stuff,
• 55:34
  you know, and just sitting around staring at the at the
• 55:37
  screen isn't necessarily a good thing.
• 55:39
  But, you know, I like the physicality of the book.
• 55:42
  Oh, me too. And actually more than the
• 55:44
  digital books 100% yeah. I used to work in book selling
• 55:47
  so. I have particularly like.
• 55:48
  Oh really? Yeah.
• 55:49
  Yeah, for you. So wow, I have a strong feeling
• 55:52
  about. Physical books, yeah.
• 55:54
  No, it's something. About the, the holding it in
• 55:56
  your hand, you know, and plus you know you can, in terms of
• 56:00
  the environment, you know, you can get them from the library if
• 56:03
  you want or you can, you know, you can buy them used or you can
• 56:06
  buy them and donate them, you know, but me, I had to buy new
• 56:09
  bookcases because now this is years ago, I donated.
• 56:15
  I'm not joking when I say thousands.
• 56:19
  I donate them to books for for a better world.
• 56:22
  So now here I am acquiring them again.
• 56:24
  So I guess you it's some of the books I donated and then I'm
• 56:28
  buying them again. Well, it's, you know, it's a
• 56:31
  circle. Of joy going around the universe
• 56:33
  so Well, look, I'm not going to shy away from voice.
• 56:36
  Voice of the voiceless. Voice for the voiceless.
• 56:38
  I forgot exactly the name the Dalai Lama book you mentioned.
• 56:41
  Yeah, no, it's. It's great.
• 56:43
  It's really good. I recommend that.
• 56:44
  Yeah, I will check out. You know I was I.
• 56:46
  Wanted to mention we did a, you know what year this was MTV
• 56:51
  Europe came to our show in Edinburgh and they interviewed
• 56:57
  us, as I recall it, before the show.
• 57:00
  And I and I had on a shirt that that was a Tibet shirt.
• 57:06
  And so they get there. It was kind of weird because
• 57:08
  they, I was asked to be part of the interview and yet the
• 57:11
  interviewer didn't ask me anything.
• 57:13
  So after a while I was trying to get kind of angry.
• 57:15
  You know, I was like, why am I sitting here?
• 57:17
  You know, because all the questions are directed to
• 57:20
  Michael. And so, so at the end, they're
• 57:22
  like, anything else you want to say?
• 57:24
  And so at that point I stood up and I showed my shirt and I
• 57:26
  said, yes, China out of Tibet. And they and they, they edited
• 57:31
  that out for Europe. Really.
• 57:34
  Yes. So that was like my, my moment
• 57:37
  of being an activist. Yeah, yeah.
• 57:40
  Yeah, I would like to say that's not going to be edited out of
• 57:42
  this interview. Joe, Bo, thank you so much.
• 57:45
  I didn't mean to keep you for so long, but I really appreciate
• 57:48
  your time. Thank you.
• 57:48
  It's been a thrill to talk with you.
• 57:49
  Oh, well, thank you. Thank you.
• 57:51
  Very much so. All the best until.
• 57:53
  I next see you in Europe. OK, great.
• 57:54
  All right. OK, bye.
• 57:56
  Thanks. Bye.