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The Pittsburgh-Detroit Connection · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: Hi everybody, welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_04: I am your co-host, Tim Hannon, and joining me is uh Steve Wirk.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's me.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: Today we're going to talk about the connection between Pittsburgh and Detroit in sports.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_04: So uh Pittsburgh and Detroit, they have a lot in common as cities.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh both are rust belt cities, both at one point were like powerhouse American manufacturing cities, Pittsburgh had the steel industry, Detroit had the automotive industry.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_04: Both cities kind of saw their respective industries collapse, uh, saw a lot of economic hardship because of that.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um both had to reinvent themselves.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: Nevertheless, right, similar, kind of similar towns.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_04: And not only are they similar for those reasons, but I think their sports histories are also very much intertwined.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what I I wanted to um kind of flesh out in this episode.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: So we've divided this episode into basically three sections.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so we're gonna talk about championships, uh people, and stories.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_04: So we'll start with with championships, and here here's a fun fact.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_04: Uh all three Pittsburgh pro sports teams have won a championship in the city of Detroit.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: Conversely, only one of the three Pittsburgh Pro Sports teams have won a championship in the city of Pittsburgh.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: So if we're having a championship in Detroit, we're we're pretty pretty pretty set there, huh?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: What about the Mac championship that uh I think that or no, that wasn't a Mac, it was just a bowl game against the Mac in Detroit.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: But I think Pitt I think Pitt won both of those, didn't he?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_04: We'll actually we'll actually talk about that in our in in one in one of our later stories.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_04: So don't worry, stay tuned.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but the the three championships, let's talk about those.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_04: Uh the first one was the 1909 World Series between the Pirates and the Detroit Tigers.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_04: That was built as a rivalry between good guy Hannes Wagner and bad guy Ty Cobb.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but by all accounts, those two guys actually like each other.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so much so that the press actually has to make up stories to make it seem more bitter than it really is.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, none of us could stand the guy who always alive.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_04: So we told him to stick in.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and and you can't imagine a media that just fabricates stories.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, thank goodness that era is over.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but but in 1909, uh it's it's reported that during that World Series, Cobb is standing on first base, and while he's standing on first base, he says he's gonna steal second base, and he points to Hannes Wagner at shortstop and calls him a crowdhead, which apparently is some kind of German slur.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_04: Wagner was the son of German immigrants.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: I thought he was Dutch.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I whatever, it's insulting, apparently.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what is this 1909?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: 1909.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's an odd thing to say.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: The war hasn't even happened yet, but hey, whatever.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he didn't like the Kaiser even back then.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: He knew he was up to no good.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Ty Cobb was ahead of his time in his ethnic hatred and racism, so um, but what what what supposedly happens is you know, cop cop says this, tries to steal second, is thrown out trying to steal second, and it's Wagner that applies the tag to to tag him out, and he and he tags him like really hard right in the face, he bloodies his lip, so he like gets him back.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_04: But anyway, that I think never happened.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it was but it made for a good story.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_04: None of it?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: Not even a little bit.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: There's literally they they have every play recorded from that rock series, and there's no instance of him stealing second and getting thrown out like that.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_04: So that never happened.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that was my thing about the media making up stories.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: Is there any old-timey movie of it?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_04: There's a like No, there's no old-timey footage of it either.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but what does happen is that Wagner outplays Cobb in the series.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_04: It does go the full seven games.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_04: Game seven is at Bennett Park in Detroit, and the Pirates crushed the Tigers eight to nothing to give the Buckers their first ever World Series title.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's a big deal.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's redemption for Honest Wagner, Deacon Philippi, and Fred Clark, all the other guys that we talked about from that 1903 team.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the first uh Pittsburgh Championship won on Detroit's soil.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_04: The second one comes just a little bit later.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: It's the 2005 Super Bowl.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_04: We uh we, of course, did a whole three-part episode on this.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um the Sealers were the number six seed in the playoffs that year.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Jerome Bettis's final season, Bettis being from Detroit, goes to Detroit to play the Seattle Seahawks in Super Bowl 40 uh and and triumphs and goes out a winner.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_04: So we're not going to rehash that whole story.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_04: I think we all know it.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_04: And again, we we went into that in detail in a previous episode.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_04: So that was the second championship won on Detroit soil, of course, against the Seahawks, not against the Lions.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_04: The Stewards have never played the Lions with a championship on the line.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_04: The closest they came to that was the 1962 playoff bowl that we talked about in our uh episode where we did about Buddy Parker, Steve.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_04: That was the one that Vince Lombardi called the poop bowl, except he he didn't call it poop.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_04: He used another four-letter word.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: And he said it was a he said it was a loser's bowl for losers.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_04: So that was that was the only time the Steelers in Detroit Lions ever played each other outside of the regular season.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: Was that for draft picks or no?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: That was that was runner-off.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: That was like the consolation game.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was a consolation game.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: You get to say you're number three after I'm the third place team.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yay!
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's the bronze medal game, essentially, right?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_04: So hence hence Benslin Bardi's losers bowl for losers comment.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and then and then, of course, the third uh championship was the 2009 Stanley Cup, another one we did a whole episode on, uh, where the Detroit Red Wings played the Penguins for the second straight year.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: The Red Wings had actually won the Stanley Cup in Pittsburgh in 2008.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_04: So they it's really four championships, one between these two cities on the other other cities' soil.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and then of course, famously Marion Hosa switches sides, he goes to the Red Wings, but the Penguins win it in 2009.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_04: Uh again, we all know that story, and we went did a whole in-depth episode about that.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: The little link from our website.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_04: Uh that one was was uh special for head coach Dan Bilesma because just like Bettis, he's from Detroit.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_04: And so he won that Stanley Cup Game 7 back in Detroit.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_04: So those are your three championships.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um a lot of Pittsburgh Detroit championship history for sure, Steve.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: Championship.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: I can't believe our soil's been sullied with Detroit championships.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: I guess if we ever play another championship in Detroit, we'll be uh we'll be in good shape.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh bet bet the uh bet the house on the Pittsburgh team, huh?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I don't I don't see the Pirates making it to the World Series anytime soon and or the Steelers hosting a super or the Pittsburgh hosting a Super Bowl anytime soon, even if they did the Lions certainly wouldn't be anywhere close to it.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: You don't know that.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: You don't know, maybe uh Jared Goth will get it together.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I don't know.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and then and then the Penguins and Red Wings now play in the same conference, so yeah, that'll never happen.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: So so that was our championship section.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_04: Let's move on to people.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_04: And and in this section, we're gonna talk about sports personalities who were associated with both cities.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and we already talked, of course, about Jerome Bettis being famously from Detroit, but another guy who is who is an important component to that 2005 Super Bowl team was defensive coordinator Dick LeBeau.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: He architected the defense that won that Super Bowl uh and also uh coached uh the Steelers defense and and several other Super Bowls.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_04: He spent his entire 14-year Hall of Fame playing career as a member of the Detroit Lions.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_04: So Dick Lebeau, a lot of history in Detroit and Pittsburgh.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: He's from Ohio, though, isn't he?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think he's from Ohio.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I yeah, good question.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure where he's from.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_04: I just know that his playing career was in Detroit.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_04: I remember when they went to um at one point they they had like they got like all the defensive players wore like Dick LeBeau line old timing lions jerseys when they were in practice to honor him.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_04: Another guy that that uh that was born in Pittsburgh is is and was also on that 2005 Super Bowl team is Charlie Batch.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_04: Uh he was drafted in the second round of the 1998 draft by the Lions.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_04: He started for the Lions for for actually for four seasons, but kind of unfortunate because he arrived right as Barry Sanders is retiring.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: He signs with the Steelers in 2002 and spends 11 seasons.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't realize it was that long.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: 11 seasons with the Steelers as a backup quarterback.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: Definitely has some big wins when he's called upon for an injured starter and become a really becomes a big fan favorite who's really, I think, still loved here today.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I went, I think I went to uh that was the game after um was it Ben the the year after Super Bowl 40, that first game, didn't Batch end up starting?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because it was the Thursday night opener against and they were playing the Dolphins.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_04: And Nick Saban, I think.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_04: Nick Saban, it was his first game as as coach, and and Batch threw a touchdown pass, like an 80-something yard touchdown pass to Heath Miller in the final minutes to win that game.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_04: So yep.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he definitely had some uh you know, some good win.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: He was very you you just Ben, the way he played, especially in that era, he was very prone to getting hurt.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: And it was always really reassuring to have Charlie Batch on the bench.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: Another crossover guy is Scotty Bowman.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Scotty Bowman is in the front office for the Penguins when they win their first Stanley Cup in 91.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: And then that that fall, head coach Bob Johnson tragically passes away, and Bowman takes over as head coach, and then he leads the Penguins to a second Stanley Cup in 1992.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: He then takes over as head coach of the Detroit Red Wings, winning three more Stanley Cups there in 97, 98, and 02.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_04: So Scotty Bowman uh maybe I I probably the only coach that won championships in both cities in any sport.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, one of the greatest hockey coaches of all time, for sure.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, won a couple with the Canadians, too.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: So and won championship in Montreal, Pittsburgh, and Detroit.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yep, absolutely.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_04: And and one of the guys that helped him win those championships in Pittsburgh was Hall of Fame defenseman Larry Murphy.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_04: He was on both those Stanley Cup teams in the early 90s, definitely uh uh an all-time great for the Pens, and he later re-teams with Bowman in Detroit and becomes an integral part of those championship Red Wing teams.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_04: So Larry Murphy uh won Stanley Cups for both the Penguins and the Red Wings.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Larry Murphy's underrated.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: Larry Murphy, well, I know he's in a Hall of Fame.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard to say he's underrated, but I don't know.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_04: No, that's fair.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, uh like you said, I mean, definitely in the Hall of Fame, but you know, if you're even Penguin fans, right?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_04: If you're thinking of, you know, just just off the top of your head, reel off the all-time great players, you know, obviously Lemieux, Crosby, Jagger, Malkin, Francis.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_04: But then people would say Francis.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: People might even say non-Hall of Famers like Kevin Stevens before they would would say.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Joey Mullen.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: People probably say Joey Mullen.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_04: Right, right.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I you know, that's that's a very good point.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_04: Murphy is is underrated.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: I I don't know that the penguins win the two Stanley Cups without him.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: So um another guy that's associated with both cities, Hank Greenberg.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Hank Greenberg was a baseball player, one of the greatest players in the history of the Detroit Tigers, uh, five-time All-Star, two-time American League MVP, led the led the Tigers to two World Series championships.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_04: He's in the Hall of Fame.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_04: He even fought in World War II in the middle of his career just uh just for good measure.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_04: In uh in 1947, he gets into a very bitter contract dispute, and just like just like Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson years later, he decides he would rather retire than play for a Detroit team any longer.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_04: But uh unlike Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson, um he he he changes his mind because the Pirates come along and convince him to come out of retirement to play for them.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_04: The Pirates actually make him the highest paid player in Major League history at the time, which Pirates and highest paid anything in the same sentence just seems weird to say.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: It's a huge deal.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: They actually reconfigure Forbes Field.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's like Greenbird, Greenberg Gardens, yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: Greenberg Gardens, yeah.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: To to make the to make the fence closer to home plate because Greenberg tended to hit most of his home runs to left, and it was very kind of cavernous uh ballpark, so they shortened the fence just so they could get it have more Hank Greenberg home runs.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: Thank God Barney Dreyfus wasn't around for that.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: He'd been mad.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: Him and his no cheap home runs policy.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so yeah, a lot of a lot of excitement when Hank Greenberg comes to Pittsburgh.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Bing Crosby, who who owns a share of the Pirates, uh was also pretty excited about that.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: Here's some vintage audio of Bing Crosby and his buddy Groucho Marks on Greenberg's arrival in Pittsburgh.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Anyhow, I have a mic copy in my pocket, a copy of a song I want you to sing.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Something clever?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it could be.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't write it.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Anyhow, Bing, this is a song about Greenberg.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't mind, I'll teach it to you and vice versa.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's break in the song.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: We've heard about those old time dangerous pirates of Captain Kidden, Silver John the Long.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: But we prefer those modern dangerous pirates.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: As our victims of the flank, we sing this song.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, goodbye, Mr.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Ball.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Goodbye.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: You are gonna see an awful lot of sky.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Don't hang around for Richard to open up that door.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: When Hankus Pankus hits you where you've never been hit before.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, goodbye, Mr.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Ball, goodbye.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: You had better Wow, that's pretty cool.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Groucho is definitely still one of my favorite comedians.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: I know I'm like way too young for that, but I don't know.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: My smart aleck remarks come from watching way too many Bugs Bunny and Bunch of Marks.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: I would I don't if you wonder why I am the way I am.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: I was raised on Bugs Bunny and Groucho Marks.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: So explains a lot, doesn't it?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: It does.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_04: It really does.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, Groucho and Bing are pretty excited about that.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it doesn't really pan out that well.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_04: Greenberg only plays one season at Pittsburgh.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's a it's a good season.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: He cranks out 25 home runs and he leads the National League in walks, but the Pirates still finish in last place.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: So was that in the 50s?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_04: 47.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_04: 47, okay.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's good though.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: 25 home runs back there.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's girls are respectable.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, but it didn't really help the team on the field, but it generated some excitement.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh how about here's a guy we just talked about in a recent episode, Kevin Colbert.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh he spends a decade as the head of scouting for the Lions before being named the Steelers general manager in 2000, where he spends the next 22 seasons leading the Steelers to all kinds of success.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_04: So Kevin Colbert, a guy that um had an impact in both cities, probably obviously more so in Pittsburgh.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't realize he was from Detroit or just coached in Detroit.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: He was the head of scouting.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: He just so he's just a scout in Detroit.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_04: Well he was the head of scouting, but yes.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_04: And it was for it was for ten years.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, he wasn't wasn't like he was there for one year.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I mean that's where they they plucked him from because he was like this up and coming guy that was going to be a general manager in the NFL, and um that's where he he really built himself up was I wonder who I wonder who his picks were.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I guess he didn't get to make picks.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: He was a scout in Detroit.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Did he like pick like Herman Herman Moore or I don't know?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'm sure he had influence.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, being the head of scouting, you know.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um and the Lions, I mean, it's hard to remember now, but in the 90s, the Lions had some good teams.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_04: They weren't a perennial playoff team.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, they just never could well, they had bad coaches, I think.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And two, the league was so different.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: I've often thought about that.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if Barry Sanders played, like if I had Barry Sanders now as like an owner or coach, I would hire like Rich Rodriguez and have him run his offense.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like Barry Sanders and that crazy offense, you're gonna have to make a tackle one-on-one with him like 90% of the time.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's gonna be a problem.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_04: Just the like the spread offense is the the the sort of like the get the guy in space kind of designs that you have today.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_04: You didn't have a lot of that back then.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_04: And Barry Sanders just always made his own space, even still.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, even if you could get him on a one-on-one matchup like 50% of the time, I'll I'll take my chances there.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for sure.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Jim Leland, uh, one of the best managers in Pirates history, led the team to three consecutive division titles in the 90s, but sadly never wins a pennant in Pittsburgh.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: He later manages the Detroit Tigers, where he does win two pennants, but uh they lose the Raw Series both times.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Jim Leland still going strong, by the way, uh at the time of this recording at 877.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: Definitely a tobacco company's dream.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because look, it's not bad for you.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, Leland smoked cigarettes in the dugout, in the post-game interview, uh, while he was playing in bed at night, you know, while he was drinking his coffee in the morning.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, so yeah, I mean, hey, if that guy smoked the gazillion cigarettes, and yeah, he was fine.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: Emphazima has not found them yet.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Nope.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but he is where is Leland from, though?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: He's not from either city, though, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: He grew up somewhere else, I think.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: But he definitely has a connection to both towns, just like Colbert, because he definitely has success in both places.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, having Miguel Cabrera helps.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he had Barry Bonds and Miguel Cabrera.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you should win some games with those guys in your lineup, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, it's it's I I was really going for, he's from Ohio, by the way.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: Uh uh, but I was really going for um just like success in both cities.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: Well, just yeah, just just some association with both cities' sports franchises, right?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: Not so much just was born there, although I did I did include Bettis, so kind of broke my own role.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um how about how about Buddy Parker and Bobby Lane?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: Speaking of guys we did an episode on.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Buddy Parker, coach of the Lions in the 50s, Bobby Lane was our quarterback.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: Those two guys won multiple championships in the 1950s, and then Parker famously quits and comes to Pittsburgh, as we detailed in an episode we did, uh called the Steelers Go All In for a Championship.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and then he acquires Lane in a trade.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: And kind of similar to the Hank Greenberg thing, a lot of a lot of high expectations because here you got these guys that that won in Detroit coming to Pittsburgh, but it doesn't really pan out.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_04: And again, we we went into more detail about that in that episode.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Joe Schmidt, Steve, you know who Joe Schmidt is?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_04: You're the Pitt fan.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he is linebacker for Pitt.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: He's a Hall of Fame.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think he's in the Hall of Fame, the NFL Hall of Fame, I do.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: He is, and guess who he played for in the NFL?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the Massey and the Massian Lions.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: The Pottsville Maroons.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: No, not so much.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: So so yeah, Joe Schmidt, one of the guys who has his jersey number retired by pitch football.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_04: I think there's only like eight of those um guys that have their number retired.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, really, really brilliant Hall of Fame career playing for the Detroit Lions in the NFL.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_04: So that's another guy that uh made his mark in both cities.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um Swin Cash grew up in Pittsburgh, played her high school ball here.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_04: She she goes on to lead the Detroit Shock to multiple WNBA championships in the 2000s, and she's a member of the Basketball Hall of Fame.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Detroit.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_04: Shocked.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_04: I'm shocked.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't I I've heard of her, but I didn't know she played for Detroit.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's you know my extent of WNBA knowledge.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_04: So sorry.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_04: And then and then for our last two, I will revert revert back to um being from the town.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: So so Clint Hurdle, uh he's a guy that's a native of Detroit, obviously managed to the Pirates to their only brief success of the last 30 years.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_04: And then Brian Rust grew up in Detroit and won two Stanley Cups with the Penguins and just got a big money bag recently.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: So those are those are two guys that grew up in Detroit, but um found some success in their sports careers in Pittsburgh.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_04: So those are that that's that's the people section.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_04: Steve, any any people you that I forgot that crossed over that you can think of between Detroit and Pittsburgh.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: Detroit and Pittsburgh?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't know.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean uh I can't think of anybody off the top of my head.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I don't know.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I did forget Greenberg played for Detroit.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know Brian Ruster's from Detroit.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I didn't I didn't know he was an American player.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: I thought he was Canadian, but hey.
• 23:16
  unknown: Eh?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: I was wrong.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, typically hockey, you just sort of sort of assume everyone's Canadian unless like they have a Russian name.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: And then yeah, not so much.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_04: That's about that's about it, though.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's yeah, so yeah, Brian Rust from Detroit.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_04: All right, so so championships people, our our third and final section is is just generally sort of called stories.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of scandals, controversies, and just just other stories.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_04: And the first one we'll go with uh was for sure a big controversy at the time, and people still remember years later, and it's this incident.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_05: Using fourth quarter timing moves, each team receives two timeouts.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_05: The first team to score wins the game.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_05: We'll have a toss to determine who receives, who will call it from Pittsburgh.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_05: Number thirty-six, come and come in the middle.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_05: air.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_05: Heads is the call.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_05: He said heads, it is a tails.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I believe he said tails.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_05: He did.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_05: Look at Jerome Venice.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_05: He's still what's going on?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_05: Which mate?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_05: Which way you're going to do that?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_05: Oh man.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_05: Detroit has won the toss.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_05: We'll see.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: There is a in there now that I listen to it all these years later, you can kind of hear a huh tills.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: But so I never believed that for years, but in that audio, if you listen closely, you can hear a Yeah.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if you really as a perder film it, I guess you can make a case.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: But it sounds more tails, because I remember the time, like, oh my god.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, be that as may, the Steelers had a chance to stop them on defense and win the game.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: So Well, yeah, so let's give the background here.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_04: If folks aren't familiar, this this is 1998.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_04: The Steelers are playing the Lions in Detroit.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: Charlie Batch is the quarterback.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: Charlie Bats is a quarterback for the Lions.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_04: I think uh Cordell Stewart's a quarterback for the Steelers.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_04: It's Thanksgiving Day, so it's a big deal.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_04: Uh the Steelers were kind of like a on the cusp of a playoff berth kind of team.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: They needed to win here.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_04: Game goes into overtime.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: So, of course, you know, they flip a coin to see who gets the ball first, and Jerome Bettis sounds like he calls tails, but referee Phil Lockett hears heads.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_04: The Lions get the ball first, march down the field, kick the game-winning field goal.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, it's it's just a massive controversy because how can you screw up the coin toss?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_04: Uh they actually make a rule change after this where you don't call it in the air anymore.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_04: So that's what they used to do.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_04: They used to say call it in the air.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_04: And the idea there was to prevent any kind of I guess cheating, yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_04: Well well, any kind of perception that the referee somehow, you know, I don't know how you could do this, but like held it in a way.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: Mulate it, yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: Manipulate it.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: So if you call it in the air, then it's like no one can manipulate the flip.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_04: But um boy, what what a what a disaster that was.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, it two things about that.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_04: Number one, I mean, Steve makes a really good point there that no one ever remembers that the Steelers defense just laid down and let them march down the field and he even stopped them on a third down play.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_04: They were gonna have to punt.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_04: But but Chris Oldham, one of the defensive backs, got a face mask penalty on that play that that got them into field goal range.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was wasn't a good team that year.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, they they they still could have made a stand there and won the game, and they didn't.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_04: And then the second thing that I thought was interesting in in re-watching that clip, if you listen to that audio again, right when the coin is flipped, you hear a voice call out, he said tails, like as the coins in the air.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I always thought that was Carnell Lake, who was standing next to Bettis.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's actually the Lions player.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it is.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: It is, yeah, the Lions players.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and that was obviously before it came up as tails, right?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_04: It was when the coin was still in the air.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: But he's thinking, no, he said tails, and if it and if it lands on heads, then the lions are gonna get hosed, right?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_04: So I thought that was kind of and then as soon as the coin lands and you see the lions player just kind of shut up and back away.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like, never mind.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Robert Porsche, uh if I remember which I could be wrong, but if I if I remember that, I'll be impressed.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_04: I am impressed if that's the case.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_04: That you remember that.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_04: But but I never realized that until I watched the clip for this episode.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_04: I just thought that was Carnot Lake, you know, making the argument that the lions are actually even the lions think he called tails.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: So there is a they said he tried to say head tails.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: I it's kind of a weak argument, but that's that's their line and they're sticking with it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: Poor Phil Buckett.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_04: He was kind of uh uh embarrassed out of the league after shortly after that.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um another controversy, uh Michael Moore.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_04: Michael Moore was a boxer from Pittsburgh, and his kind of one moment in time was in 1994, he defeats Amander Holyfield to win the heavyweight championship.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_04: So pretty big deal, Michael Moore winning the heavyweight championship.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and and the controversy here was, you know, in boxing, they always do those like Michael Buffer type announcements when they introduce the fighters, uh, you know, these big kind of grandiose announcements.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_04: Well, at some point, Michael Moore started to when Michael Moore started to become really famous, he started being announced as being from Detroit instead of from Pittsburgh.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: And and the reason why is because um at one point in his career when he started again, when he started getting good, he he moved to Detroit to train there.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: Because Detroit's a very you know long-standing tradition of a boxing city, and and they just the gym or the train or whatever they had there was you know was was was better than what they had here.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: And man, that that caused a stink amongst the locals.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like you if you really want to insult Pittsburgh people, you know, for kind of forget where you're from, right?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: Forget your roots.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_04: And that was what Michael Moore was accused of doing when he was being introduced as being from Detroit.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, I didn't know that was a whole controversy, a whole thing.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: He's from Minnasset.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he was from Minnesota.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's straight.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: He's from Minnasset down the Mount Valley, not now Detroit.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we should like our next podcast.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_03: We should we should have like Michael Buffer style announcements.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: And no way in.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: From Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the southern dandy.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_04: We'll have to uh sell out some money for Michael Buffer to do it.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_04: We'll just play it at the beginning of every podcast.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we get his brother.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't his brother do the UFC?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: We can get his brother, he can't afford Michael, we can get his brother.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_04: That works.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we can get get the discount, Michael Buffer.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_04: Anyway, Michael Moore eventually loses that heavyweight championship to um like 87-year-old George Foreman, and then he's never real.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, not that he's never heard from again, but that was kind of his.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: He kind of flamed out after that.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well, once you get knocked out, it's easier to get knocked out the second time.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that's medical science, not me.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: But it it is it's just easier because that's a concussion.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's what getting knocked out is.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it's easier to get concussions once you've had your first one.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_04: But good to know.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_04: I will try to avoid that.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, don't get a concussion.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_04: Uh another another uh kind of scandal or controversy that that connects these two cities and the sports world is the the Detroit Lions curse.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_04: So we talked before about you know the Lions traded Bobby Lane to the Steelers, and when they did that, supposedly he curses the franchise on his way out of town, and he says that they won't win anything for another 50 years.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_04: And this is in 1958.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_04: And of course, Bobby Lane's prediction comes true, the Lions actually don't win anything for the next 50 years.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_04: And and just to really put the the the like the Terry on top of the cursed Sunday, on the exact 50th anniversary of that trade, it's the the that's the 2008 season where the Steelers win their sixth Super Bowl and the Lions become the first ever NFL team to go 0-16.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, uh, you know, uh you can believe in curses or not believe in curses.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_04: And there there's some, you know, uh dispute over if Lane even said that, you know, uh, but nevertheless, you know, Lions were cursed, and uh I don't know, they they haven't exactly fared well since then.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_04: So I I don't know if it's a curse or if it's just bad management.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um here here's a here's a fun fact: the Steelers and Lions have played each other 18 times since the Bobby Lane trade.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and the Lions have only won three of those 18 games.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_04: They that was in 1962, 1983, and the aforementioned 1998 Thanksgiving game.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: They won on a coin flip.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: No, they last year.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: No, there was a tie.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_04: They did manage, I was gonna say, they did manage to play the Steelers do a tie in both 1959 and 2021.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: So you got that at least.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_04: And lose every one of those games.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_04: Uh another another connection uh that caused a little bit of a stir was uh around the Detroit Pistons.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: And you'd wonder, well, how does that connect to Pittsburgh?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_04: Well, two things happened around like this 2010-2011 time frame.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_04: One was the longtime owner of the Pistons passed away, and his widow wanted to sell the team.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: And then the second thing that happened uh was that Pittsburgh opened this new state-of-the-art arena called PPG Paints Arena.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think it was called the what, the Console Energy Center at the time, now called PPG Paints Arena.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_04: And that led to just instant speculation that the team would relocate to Pittsburgh.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_04: And this wasn't just like internet rumors or people on Twitter making stuff up.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_04: The Pittsburgh mayor's office actually comes out with a statement that the city could for sure support a pro basketball team.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_04: And you had everybody from Forge magazine to Penguins executives to Mark Cuban all weighing in on this.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I mean it wasn't I I don't, you know, it was probably never a realistic possibility.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_04: There were there wasn't even an identified buyer from Pittsburgh.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_04: And and eventually the Pistons are sold to uh billionaire Tom Gores, who keeps the team in Detroit.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_04: But for a while there was a lot of speculation that the Pistons were going to move to Pittsburgh.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: They still open the Pistons, the Pittsburgh Pistons.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's a nice bit of a alliteration.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I mean I I I know that's you know uh an homage to the auto industry, but could we like usurp all their championships?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: So like now we have three NBA championships right off the gate.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, you would because I mean when you if the team relocates, you don't unless it's like that we that special.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, but you know, any other time you're you're carrying the championships with you.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: So Indianapolis has that that Baltimore Colts championships from like the 50s and the Super Bowl with the Ravens don't have that.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_04: It's a different franchise.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, wow.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, when the Raiders moved to Las Vegas, they Raiders won three Super Bowls in Oakland and Los Angeles.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, they're they that that's the franchise has Super Bowl teams.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I remember that great Pittsburgh player, Ben Wallace and Chauncey Villows.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I I when I was a kid, the Pistons were my favorite team.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_04: That bad boys era team with like Isaiah Thomas, yeah, Joe Dumars and Lamb Beer, all those guys.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I would have loved to see the Pistons move to Pittsburgh, but alas, it never happened.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um go going back to the world of boxing, we we did talk about this in a previous episode, the uh Joe Lewis Billy Kahn fight.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um we and and I think we covered that in our almost miracle plays episode because what what had happened was so Joe Lewis was an all-time great boxer.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um if if you were going to make a list of the top 10 sports figures in any sport of the 20th century, you really have to put Joe Lewis in there.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_04: He was just this larger-than-life, super famous figure.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_04: And in 1941, he's in the middle of an unprecedented streak of 26 consecutive title defenses.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_04: I can't even imagine fighting 26 guys in a row and winning, or even fighting 26 fights in a row.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_04: That's insanity.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and and he's kind of running out of guys to fight, and he's scheduled to fight the Pittsburgh kid Billy Kahn at the polo grounds in New York.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's a huge mismatch because Lewis actually outweighs Kahn by 30 pounds, and he's a three-to-one favorite.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_04: Again, this was this was literally just like they were running out of guys to fight.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but Billy Kahn shocks everybody.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_04: He actually dominates the fight.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_04: He's he's very quick.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_04: Lewis can't keep up with that.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_04: And in the 13th round, Kahn is ahead on, I believe it was two of the three scorecards, but he against the advice of his trainer, he decides he's gonna go for the knockout.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_04: And that's that's his his doom, leads to his doom because he he tries to do that, and Joe Lewis connects with a with a uh pretty hard punch, and that's the end of Billy Kahn, and he gets knocked out.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, they do have a rematch years later, but because of World War II, that's delayed and delayed, and then by the time they do fight, Lewis wins that pretty easily.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: Billy Kahn does have a street named after him.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's in Oakland.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I don't know.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think maybe maybe he should have played for the I don't I I give the guy credit though.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: You do you can't beat the champ unless you knock him out, I guess.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_04: We we we talked about that in our episode that we did, because we we were kind of speculating, like, is he you know, and when you win by decision like that, I mean his strategy was again, he was 30 pounds later than Joe Lewis.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_04: So his strategy was I'm gonna like run around and kind of jab and move, jab and move, and and win on on the scorecards, which was a good strategy, but would you know it was Joe Lewis?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's like okay, I guess you beat him, but yeah, did you really beat him?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_04: And if he could have got the knockout, I mean, remember when Mike Tyson lost to Buster Douglas?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that was Yeah, he got knocked down.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_04: He got knocked out, and that was that was to this day, that was shocking.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_04: I I remember at the time people were talking about that for weeks.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_04: It it back when the cover of Sports Illustrated was like a big deal, that the the that made literally made the cover two weeks in a row.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_04: The same event made the cover of Sports Illustrated two weeks in a row because it it just was so shocking.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_04: And had Buster Douglas won that on a decision, it just it it would have been shocking, but not the way it was to see Mike Tyson actually go down.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_04: So I get it.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_04: I definitely get it, but boy, it's it's a shame that it it just shook out that way.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um an another another another kind of uh connection between the two cities.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so one of the more probably bizarre events in Pittsburgh sports history takes place on March 11, 1984, when a sell-out crowd fills up Three River Stadium to come boo and throw snowballs and beer bottles at Birmingham Stallions quarterback, Cliff Stout.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_04: Stout had previously played for the Steelers, and like literally they they sold out this game, this USFL game.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, just to booze in the snow in March.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_04: Just because just so people could hate on Cliff Stout.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_04: And Steve Steve, you and I talked about this before, and I I remember we speculated at the time because we were too young to remember.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like, why why did people hate Cliff Stout that much?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like he's the Mason Rudolph of that generation, I guess.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, not even, but I mean, like I don't think anybody would like throw snowballs.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I mean.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: If Mason Rudolph was on the two, people probably wouldn't like get that passionate about it, I don't think.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_04: No, but they did for Cliff Stout.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_04: And I so what's the Detroit connection?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_04: The the part of that hatred might date back to the Thanksgiving Day game at Detroit the year before, 1983.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_04: And the background for that game is the Steelers are 9-3 heading into that game.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_04: They're heavy favorites to beat the 6-6 Lions, but instead they get hammered by the score of 45-3 on Thanksgiving Day in Detroit.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Cliff Stout has four interceptions.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_04: He posts a 6.3 passer rating.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I think you would be hard-pressed.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_04: 6.3?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_04: 6.3 and 4 interceptions.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_04: I you'd have to do some like Elias Sports Bureau kind of research, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a worse game for any Steeler quarterback ever.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: And and after the game, Stout doesn't really own his performance.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_04: Instead, he kind of laments how, in the eyes of the fans and the media, he'll never live up to Terry Bradshaw, who was the guy he was replacing.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, he says, Oh, everything I everything I do will just always be compared to Bradshaw.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_04: And and even after that season, he he admits that the pressure really got to him.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_04: He said, Quote, I tried to commit suicide, but the bullet got intercepted, which is a pretty dark joke.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_04: It kind of feels like a little bit of a cry for help, but that's pretty morbid.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, pretty morbid.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I so Steve, I just wonder if, you know, so so about that was 1983, but 15 years later, you know, one thing you and I do remember is the game in Tampa Bay where Cordell Stewart got benched and then he was crying on the sidelines.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_04: And remember his people just never liked Cordell after that.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I just I wonder if uh, you know, Cliff Stout kind of taking that woe is me, I'm not Terry Brad.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_04: I guess I'm not Terry Bradshaw approach just soured everybody on him, especially in that era when when Pittsburgh was so much more uh I don't know, blue-collar and launch pal and do your job and shut up kind of attitude.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I I don't know.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_04: I just speculating, but I I just really don't understand why Cliftel was hated so much, and I just wonder if that game at Detroit was kind of a breaking point for people because you you lost a game to a team you shouldn't have, you got destroyed, he's just beyond terrible, and then he's just kind of similar to Cordell years later, just feeling bad for himself instead of taking some ownership and some responsibility and saying, Hey, I gotta be better.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh sounds as good an explanation as any.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, definitely like, you know, we ain't taking no wine in around here.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: I could go on the mill and work for, you know, not a lot of money and in the terrible working environment.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, it's a good association.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like people literally paid money to boo Cliff Stout.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: So go figure out.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, yeah.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_04: And and and if you look at his career, uh it was he he was the backup quarterback, but they wouldn't give him Chuck Knoll wouldn't give him a lot of reps or really any reps in practice.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_04: He he was he was sort of set up to fail a little bit by the coaching staff in his eyes.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but but still it it just it did not work out well.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_04: He uh his son later uh committed to playing for Pitt.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: When Dave Watson was the coach.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I remember that.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: But then he ended up going somewhere else.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because they got Sal sincere or not Sal, Tino Sinceri.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: That was the big get that kind of pushed him out.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, was it?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because it was supposed to be Cliff Stout's kid.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then it was like, oh, we got we got Tino Sinceri.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: He'll be way better.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think the Stout kid went to Louisville.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't remember him even starting for them, so who knows how good or bad or whatever he was.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hopefully it worked out.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't get snowballs thrown at him in Louisville, at least something.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: That is true.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then and then our last kind of controversy and uh was the uh Steve referenced this one earlier, the 2019 Quick Lane Bowl, uh Pitt versus Detroit Area School, Eastern Michigan, and that game was actually played at Ford Field in Detroit.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_04: So there there's really, I mean, you you're gonna be hard-pressed to find any any real history or rivalry between Pitt and any any Detroit area school, and definitely no history between Pitt and Eastern Michigan.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_04: But nevertheless, things get really chippy in the days leading up to the game.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_04: According to Pitt, the Eastern Michigan players were antagonizing them and taunting them at these bowl week activities that they had.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_04: And then in the actual game, uh Kevin McGill, who's a defensive back for Eastern Michigan, he gets ejected for spitting on one of the pit players.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_04: If that's not bad enough, their quarterback, Mike Glass III, is ejected for throwing haymakers at Cam Brighton Paris Ford, two of the pit defenders, one of which inadvertently takes down the referee.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_04: I remember that.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, if if there's any surefire way to get yourself ejected from a football game, punch the referee, even if it's by accident.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Pitt does get the last laugh in that game.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_04: Uh game MVP, Kenny Pickett.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: Pickett, yeah.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: Pickett starts like a last-minute touchdown.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_04: 25-yard touchdown pass in the final minute of the game to Pitt to give Pitt a come from behind victory over the eastern Michigan, whatever, the thugs.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: Eagles.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're from Yipsilani, aren't they?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pretty sure they're from Yipsilanti.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_04: I have no idea.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_04: Nor do I care.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: The only thing I'll remember about that scroll was their quarterback punching the referee.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, you know who was a quarterback for Eastern Michigan way back when?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: Who's that?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: Charlie Batch.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, is that where he went?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, there's another Pittsburgh Detroit connection, I guess, kind of in a roundabout way.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe it's more of a Pittsburgh Yipsilani connection, but Okay, so he played for that's that's wow, that's an interesting trajectory for his career growing up in Pittsburgh, playing college ball in Detroit, playing Pro Ball in Detroit, and then making his way back to Pittsburgh to play his final 11 seasons with the Steelers.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he didn't make it too far out of the Northeast.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, very, very committed to those two cities.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, that's that's um again, lots of both both Pittsburgh and Detroit, definitely a lot of sports history in both those towns.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_04: And uh just thought it was interesting to explore some of the intersectionality between between those two.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_04: Steve, any uh any final thoughts?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well Pitt did play in the Pizza Bowl, the Little Caesars Pizza Bowl, and that was in Ford Field, and that did feat feature um who is it, James Connor, Tyler Boyd, and Aaron Donald.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: So there you go.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I I don't I don't and they played bowling green though, so that's not a Michigan school.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, but it was in Detroit, so yeah.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's something.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, a little bit of a connection there.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: Good call.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: Good call.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_04: All right, folks.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you as always so much for listening.
• 48:02
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• 48:04
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• 48:09
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• 48:15
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• 48:17
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• 48:20
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, and we'll catch you next time.