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BPS 412: How to Create a Compelling Documentary with Julie Cohen & Betsy West · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
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  Speaker 1: amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four twelve.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: I Think every woman should have a blowtorch.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Julia Child broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: when we really should be working on that next draft.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: screenplay bulletproof.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host,
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now.
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  Speaker 2: by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Today on the show, we have Oscar nominated documentarians Julie
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Cohen and Betsy West. Now they are the creative force
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: behind the new documentary Julia, which is about the legendary
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Julia Childs, and we discuss how they approach documentary, how
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: they work the story, how they get the interviews, all
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: the kind of creative story points of how they approach
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: dealing with a legend. They had some experience with that
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: because they also did the Oscar nominated the Notorious RBG,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: which is of course Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the late Great
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and we talked a
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: little bit about how that project got off the ground
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  Speaker 2: and how they were able to put that whole thing
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  Speaker 2: together because she'd been very private most of her life,
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  Speaker 2: and we just get into the weeds of documentary in
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  Speaker 2: this episode, So without any further ado, please enjoy my
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: conversation with Julie Cohen and Betsy West. I'd like to
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: welcome to the show, Julie Cohen and Betsy West. How
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: you guys doing.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: We're great, Alex.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: We've just been having a lot of lasts before we
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: started recording, so I do appreciate you guys coming on.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I did have the chance to watch your amazing new
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: doc Julia about Julia Childs, who I am a huge
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  Speaker 2: fan of, a fan of, and I've loved your past
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: work as well, which were going to get into, but
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: let's just jump in. How did you guys get how
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: did you guys team up and how did you get
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: started in documentary?
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: Well, big question, big question.
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: We teamed up through a project called The Maker's Project,
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: which was possibly not so surprising given us some of
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: the work that we've done subsequently about the history of
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: the modern women's rights movement.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, very cool.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was like ten or so years ago, and
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  Speaker 3: then you know, we went our separate ways more or less.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: And then in twenty fifteen, as Justice Ginsburg was kind
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: of blowing up on the internet for the sense she
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: was writing, and we had I both interviewed her. Prior
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: to that, we came up with the idea of doing
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: that documentary, and then subsequent to that, we've been working
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: on a few films together.
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  Speaker 2: Now, what was it about a documentary for each of
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: you that made you want to go? I went to
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: this side of storytelling, the side of the industry.
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  Speaker 3: You know, when I look back on it, I always
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: loved documentaries, and you know, I loved as a kid.
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  Speaker 3: I will now date myself watching the world at war
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  Speaker 3: and you know, just longer storytelling. But you know, I
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: became a broadcast network news producer and behind the scenes producer,
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: working on shorter format and then magazine pieces. Julie and
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: I have sort of a similar background. But I always
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  Speaker 3: loved documentaries back in the day, even when they were
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  Speaker 3: kind of it was kind of the D word, you know,
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  Speaker 3: documentaries weren't so hot back then. But that's really what
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  Speaker 3: I wanted to do.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, similar deal for me, also came from
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  Speaker 4: the broadcast news world.
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  Speaker 5: Also just love documentaries like I like movies, like movie movies.
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  Speaker 4: So doing tell real stories in the format of movies
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  Speaker 4: is really fun. Like my favorite art is always true
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  Speaker 4: story art. I love photography, I even love music that's
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  Speaker 4: kind of documentary, as you know, the Bruce Springsteen's like
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  Speaker 4: Ghost of Tom Joad album that's really sort of like
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  Speaker 4: a documentary in an album.
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  Speaker 5: Like anything that's anything.
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  Speaker 4: That's real feels like kind of some of the coolest
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  Speaker 4: stories to tell.
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  Speaker 2: Now, how do you guys choose the subject matter that
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  Speaker 2: you guys tackle, Because it doesn't take you know, six months,
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  Speaker 2: three months to make one of these things. It generally
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: takes a few years. And but how do you guys
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  Speaker 2: choose and then how do you stay stay interested in
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  Speaker 2: it for so long?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I mean you put your finger on it, Alex. Really,
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  Speaker 3: you have to choose things that you want to spend
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: two or three or four years on or else you know,
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  Speaker 3: you'll go nuts. And I think, you know, with Justice Ginsburg,
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  Speaker 3: it was kind of one of those light bulb ideas
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  Speaker 3: of oh my goodness, what an amazing story, a current story,
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  Speaker 3: a backstory, a love story. I mean, you just couldn't
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  Speaker 3: have anything better than working on that.
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  Speaker 5: You know.
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  Speaker 3: After that film, we started looking around for other projects
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  Speaker 3: and thinking about other women who perhaps had not been
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  Speaker 3: appreciated so much, and you know, had had really been groundbreakers,
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  Speaker 3: had really changed our world, and that's when we landed
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  Speaker 3: on the idea of doing Julia.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, there's definitely not a formula that we have.
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  Speaker 4: It's the main decision point is like do we want
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  Speaker 4: to delve into this because it is otherwise, like you know,
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  Speaker 4: making a documentary. As you're in the film, audiences probably
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  Speaker 4: know like it's it's it's just it's a lot of work,
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: it's a lot of time, a lot of the process
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  Speaker 4: is a big pain in the butt. So the reward
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  Speaker 4: side is feeling like you really love the subject matter,
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  Speaker 4: and we just realized like, oh, this one could really
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: be fun.
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  Speaker 5: It's so different than.
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  Speaker 4: The other stories that we've worked on in our careers,
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  Speaker 4: and there was just like so much joy involved in
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  Speaker 4: kind of deliciousness, and it seems like subject matter that
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: we really really might kind of groove on you No.
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  Speaker 3: I think it also was a kind of filming challenge
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  Speaker 3: for us to do something different. Yes, Julia has archive,
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  Speaker 3: but also the opportunity to do some high end food photography,
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  Speaker 3: which neither of us had really done before, and to
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  Speaker 3: really dig into that we thought would be would be
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  Speaker 3: super fun.
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  Speaker 2: Now, going back to RPG, what was what was it
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  Speaker 2: like working with her, interviewing her, being in the room
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  Speaker 2: with her. I mean, I have to ask, because she's
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: essentially an icon at this point, and she wasn't icon
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  Speaker 2: while she was a living icon when she was with us.
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  Speaker 2: What was that like? And how did you even approach that?
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  Speaker 2: When did did you just call up I would like
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: to make this film about you? How did the whole
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: process come to be.
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  Speaker 3: You know, step by step? Basically, we approached Justice Ginsberg
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: pretty carefully and strategically. And initially when we went to
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: her with the idea of doing a documentary, she said,
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: you know, not yet, I'm not ready. This was, you know,
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: when she was in her early eighties. We're thinking, okay,
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: but we she didn't say no to us. So then
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: we came back a couple of months later with the
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: idea of, oh, well, we're just going to start to
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  Speaker 3: interview people with your friends and colleagues and whatever, you know,
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  Speaker 3: to kind of get her approval for that, and then
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  Speaker 3: we took it from there. So it was we didn't
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  Speaker 3: go in saying, oh, yeah, we want to do a
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  Speaker 3: documentary and can we go with you to the gym?
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  Speaker 3: By the way, like we didn't start out with that
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  Speaker 3: ask even though in our minds we were thinking it
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  Speaker 3: would be fun to go with her to the gym,
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  Speaker 3: but it was a slow building of trust.
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  Speaker 2: It was a step by step. So when you're approaching
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  Speaker 2: a subject, a subject like that who is so high profile,
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  Speaker 2: you can't walk in with guns of blarin You have
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  Speaker 2: to really kind of really baby step your way in
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  Speaker 2: to that kind of stuff.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think you're always trying to.
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  Speaker 4: Ask questions to which you can get the answer yes,
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  Speaker 4: So those need to be small questions.
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  Speaker 2: First.
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  Speaker 4: You don't come at some you have to think of
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  Speaker 4: it from their perspective, Like you don't come at someone
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  Speaker 4: with like a really like, oh, we're going to impose
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  Speaker 4: on you.
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  Speaker 5: So much, We're going to take up so much of
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  Speaker 5: your time.
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  Speaker 4: We're going to you know, pick apart every aspect of
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  Speaker 4: your career. No, it's not like that, You're like, I mean,
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  Speaker 4: the way to get the process going is to try
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: to start to get it going, So trying to come
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  Speaker 4: up with things that you think that your subject might
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  Speaker 4: agree to.
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  Speaker 5: And in this case, as.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Betsy says, we'll be right back after a word from
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: our sponsor out back to the show.
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: You know, the initial thing wasn't even about us interviewing
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: or even filming the justices herself. It was about like, oh,
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: is it okay with you if we start to interview
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: some of the people who you've worked with in earlier
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: phases of your career, just so that the project, so
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: that she starts to get the sense that this project
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: is moving forward. And here back from people that we interviewed, like, oh,
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: you know, these women were pretty serious about what they
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: were doing, and they seemed like they'd done some research,
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: and you know, they seemed like they came in with
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: this amazing you know, woman cinematographer who had like greater
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: like this is like a real production happening here.
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: So then you get that sense.
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: And then at that stage, Justice Gisberg let us start
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: filming some of you know, some public events that she
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: was doing, and then later some more intimate or private events,
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: and then the actual interview didn't happen until you know,
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: to near the end of the process, actually two years
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: into filming.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Now I have to ask, I mean, how nervous were
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: you to show it to her?
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, amazingly, Justice Ginsburg never asked to see
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: the film ahead of the screening at Sundance and which
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: we thought was a real act of trust, or maybe
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: she was just too busy or who don't but you
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: can't ask. She agreed to go to the Sundance Film Festival,
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: so we had both our major first premiere at Sundance
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: there with Justice Ginsburg sitting across the aisle from us,
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: and it was completely totally nerve wracking, and you know,
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: we were kind of watching her the sock of our
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: eyes the entire time, as opposed to watching the film.
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: And you know, she started laughing right at the beginning
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: because there is sort of a kind of funny opening
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: sequence with statues saying mean things about her, and then
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: you know, just a little ways in she pulled had
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: a tissue and wiped her eye and it was it
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: was incredible. I can't even tell you what it was
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: like to experience that and to have her like like
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: the film and appreciate it. I mean, it just meant
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: everything to us.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: And you guys, would did you guys premiere at the
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: eCos at Sundance or was it that the Egyptian.
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: Give us the other I try to remember, but it was.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: The Egyptian, the big one, Mark, Okay, it was just
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: I was just trying to visualize it.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, about five hundred people that had like a sort
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: of bleachery, right, there's sort of bleacher seats and yeah.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: That must have been And then and then with the
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: whole oscar stuff going around, what was that like when
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: you got that call?
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, you don't get a call and you
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: watch it on watch what you watch everyone else? The
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: nominations being announced, and certainly it was fun.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: But we had our we our husbands made us breakfast.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: So we're at my house and we had a really
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: nice breakfast that we sat there. And actually our name,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: the RBG name, was the last one in the list
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: of the nominees, so we actually thought when they named
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: the fourth one and it wasn't us, we thought, okay,
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: that's it. You know. We didn't so that that accounted
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: for our rather exuberant reaction, and it was more a
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: reaction like you're kidding.
• 13:35
  Speaker 5: We were really we were quite surprised.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: So so as the inaudacious were being an nice we're
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: like just past the hash Browns. It's like it's over already.
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: We weren't that casual. We had eaten already.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, good, I got you.
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: That's because we were the last one to be announced
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: as the other.
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: You know, as the other.
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: Films are being named, you sort of start to get
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: the that you're not gonna.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Be No, what was the biggest lesson you learned from
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: working on RBG?
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: Hi? The biggest lesson from art working on RBG? I mean,
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: I guess persistence. You know, slow and steady wins the game.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's what RBG did in her life. Lots
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: of setbacks, lots of discouragement, you know, for a super
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: smart person who gets out of law school and can't
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: get the kind of job that she really deserved, and
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: then you know, just started finding this opportunity to challenge
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: not only the discrimination that she faced, but the discrimination
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: that all American women faced, and a world that people
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: took for granted where women were second class citizens. I mean,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: kind of an extraordinary thing that really came out of
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: the obstacles in front of her. So I guess it's
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: a lesson of persistence and don't let anger get the
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: best of you. Think strategically, Okay, you're up against a wall.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: How am I going to get past that? That was
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: her approach.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Now, when you guys are laying out a film, how
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: do you lay out the story. Do you discover the
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: story along the way? Is there an outline? What is
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: the actual documentary process as far as you guys are concerned, Yeah.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: The process is sort of like continually organizing and outlining
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: the story and changing that as you go along. Like
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: certainly at various stages we have a rough idea of
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: thoughts of what you want the structure of the film
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: to be. Then at a certain point in the process,
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: our editor gets involved.
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: And in the case of both RBG and Jewel, oh yeah,
• 16:00
  Speaker 5: are the same.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: Brilliant editor Carla Gucierrez was part of that process with us.
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: So you sort of, you know, we sort of you have.
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: Very you know, you're very tentative outlines in mind, but
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: often what works the best, I mean, we we like to.
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: Start, you know, in the.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: Same way that I was saying, you're trying to get
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: to it, yes, pretty or you know, we try to
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: start with some scenes that we really think are going
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: to work, not worry about like the whole thing in
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: one in one sitting, but just like you know, take
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: a bite of it, take a small slice of what
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: the story might be, and like once there's a really
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: beautiful scene, then that gives you the optimism that you
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: need to push to the next level and sort of
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: piece things together and if they're working, keep going in
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: the direction that things are working, and if they're not working,
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: make revisions to the parts that aren't working.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we do use, you know, the sort
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: of modern method of the little post its on a wall,
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: which filmmakers know where you have you write the scenes
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: and the things that you expect you're going to have
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: to cover, and you put them on a wall. Only
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: we do it digitally now with this thing called jamboard,
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: which you can use to just move scenes around and
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: as Julie said, we start cutting scenes. I mean, in
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: the case of Julia, one idea we had was, Okay,
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: people have seen this archive of Julia, you know, the
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: her cooking lessons have been repeated thousands of times and
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: you know, people love watching them. But how fun to
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: deconstruct the making of that show of the French Chef
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: from the very beginning. And we have the opportunity to
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: do that because the producer Russ Morash is still around,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: and we found the stage manager Alex Pirie, and you know,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: sat them down and had them take us through what
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: it was like to put together this show, this groundbreaking
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: show in nineteen six, and it was so fun, you know,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: to get the scenes of the kind of makeshift studio
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: that they had and the photographs that Julia's husband took
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: behind the scenes. I mean, I think people going to
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: a documentary they want to experience a world, you know,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: they want to be immersed in a world that they
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: didn't necessarily know. They may know the characterization of Julia,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: they may cook some of Julia's food, but do they
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: really understand Julia's world and what it took to become
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Julia child. And that's what we were trying to get at.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what I was, what I found so wonderful about
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: the film was that, you know, my experience with Julia's obviously,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I know her growing got my mom had the book
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: and everything. I probably saw her on TV once or twice,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: but it was Julia, and it was Julie Julia, Julia
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: that the midl Street Julia, Yeah, Yeah, which was a
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: fantastic film, but that was the introduction to her story,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: and it kind of skims over a lot of stuff
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: because it's you know, it's a it's a movie. But
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: what you guys did was you went so deep into
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: it and I really didn't realize how groundbreaking she truly was.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: I mean she she changed how America cooked it was,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: uh and also was you know, a women's rights icon
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: as well. But before we keep going, what did how
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: did Julia come? How did you decide on Julia and
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: and said, Okay, we're going to spend three four years
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: with Julia? And how long did it take?
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean you could say it took it.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: It was three years from the time that we sort
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: of first considered maybe doing it and the time the
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: film came out. But like the first year of that
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: is just trying to make the whole thing happen and
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: trying to get someone who's going to fund it, and
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: trying to get the various entities, mainly the Julia Child
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: Foundation as well as WGBH, the the Boston PBS station
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: that had you know, rights to so much of that archive.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: Like getting everyone on board kind of took a year
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: and then two years basically to make the film, and
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: like the decision was as for the reasons that you said,
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: because because Julia was groundbreaking and groundbreaking in ways that
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: we're going to let us in our film show the
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: context of like what was the crappy food that Americans
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: were eating in the pre Julia era? What was the
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: vision of women on television that was being that we're
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: you know, being elevated before Julia came on the scene. Like,
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: in order to understand how big a leap she made,
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: you had to know what the world was before, and
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: that gave us the opportunity in our film to like
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: set those contexts.
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: And we knew because we know those worlds, like we
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: know about food.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: And we know about sexism, So we understood that we
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: would be able so that it would actually be pretty
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: entertaining to lay that stuff out into film form.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And what I loved also is that you you
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: really focused on the love story, like her love story
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: with her husband is it's just beautiful. On what he
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: did was groundbreaking as well, a man of his generation
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: to just push her in the into the spotlight and
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: he was happy in the background. Is so it was,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: like you said it in the documentaries, like that just
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: doesn't that that didn't happen at those guys.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean we are attracted to story
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: to subjects who have a good love story, and certainly
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: the Paul and Julia's story is fantastic because it starts
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: out with Paul being the one who is opening up
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: Julia to the world. You know, she had lived a
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: rather privileged and sheltered life until she volunteered for World
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: War Two and met Paul in the in Salon where
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: they were both posted. And you know, he was a
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: worldly guy ten years old, knew about art culture, knew
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: about food, you know. So when they married and moved
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: to France for his job with the State Department, that's
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: when Julia just blossomed and discovered her passion for food
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: and started cooking for Paul, which was really good for him.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: And we have, you know, a scene in the film
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: kind of illustrating some of the benefits that Paul and
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: Julia's love affair in France. And then, as you said,
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: something unusual happened. Paul's career was in decline, he had
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: left the State Department. He really didn't have anything to do.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: They'd moved back to the United States, and Julia suddenly
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: her cookbook after twelve years, is published, and she goes
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: on television and becomes a kind of superstar, and Paul's
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: reaction to that was just to help her every step
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: of the way, to believe in her, believe even her
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: when she was writing the book that nobody else thought
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: was a good idea, and to believe in her when
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: she became a superstar, and to continue to help her
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: for the next three decades. It's kind of extraordinary.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: It's extremely extraordinary. And the other thing I found that
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: watching the documentary is that she was absolutely fearless, like
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: she threw herself into whatever, and she didn't care what
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: anyone else said. How old was she when she started
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: in this stage of her life. Wasn't she in her
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: early fifty as.
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: She was fifty years old when she first showed up
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: on television, Like Julia was not famous until she was fifty,
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: which truthfully is another part of the story that we
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: really loved, and you know, just like a good reminder
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: for audiences and particularly kind of young women in the
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: audience to see, like, no, you actually don't have to
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: have had it all together and be ready to break
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: out when you're twenty two. There are all kinds of
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: different paths people can take.
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: And you know, so that that was.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: You mean, you didn't have it all figured out at
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: twenty two. I mean, I obviously, I mean.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think I think there's something about
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: the fact that Julia did have this later in life
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: success that gave her the sort of confidence that she had,
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: you know, and once once she got there, she really
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: she really was pretty strong in her beliefs about how
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: to carry on in her life, just in all aspects,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: and yet also someone who evolved and who changed. And
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: we love that part of the story as well. It's
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: not just like, oh, Julia went on television in the
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: early sixties, it became famous and that was it. I mean,
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: there were there were many more chapters and some challenges
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: when she was kind of being pushed off the air
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: by PBS, and how she met that challenge, and and
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: how she evolved in her thinking on social issues like homosexuality,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: which was you know, pretty major in the nineteen eighties,
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: and and she really changed her thinking and her prejudice
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: frankly about homosexuals. So those parts, those aspects of the
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: story of Julia's ongoing evolution, you know, really appealed to us.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: The persistence that Julia had is absolutely remarkable to be
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: on a book for twelve years. I mean many filmmakers
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: listening and writers listening could really feel that because I said, yeah,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: we were on the book for twelve to sit and
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: to do anything for twelve years, and to keep going
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: and to keep going no matter what when there was
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: no hope. There was really no There was no there
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: was no signpost anywhere that said this was a good idea.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: It's not like you're making a movie and they're like, well,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: other movies have been made before and made money or
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: were successful. There was nothing like it, and she's just
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: kept trying until finally someone opened the do it for her.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: It was just it was just so inspiring to see that.
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think that Julia and the French
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: colleagues that she was working with to develop that book
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: really felt strongly that what they were doing was a
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: good idea and would be valuable for home cooks. And
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: that was that was the deep impetus, as you say,
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: there was there was nobody saying this is.
• 26:22
  Speaker 5: A fantastic idea.
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: They had gotten an extremely small advance money that would
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: have long run out, but in the first year, let
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: alone the twelfth year, it wasn't like there was you know,
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: nobody was chomping at the bit waiting for this book.
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: They would just like had this vision like, oh, this would.
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: Be amazing, And I think they felt like they would
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: get some real fulfillment out of putting on you know,
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: putting down on paper, like some of the amazing French
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: techniques of cooking that you know that are well known
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: in France and very much not known in the US.
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: Like they thought it would be a worthwhile thing to do.
• 26:57
  Speaker 5: And that's where it started. Not so much.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: I mean like, yes, of course they want commercial success.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: As the twelve years go on, that is seeming less
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: and less likely you want.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: And I think that's that's a lesson that everyone listening
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: needs to take on. It's like, if you believe in
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: your stuff is something that's just so believed and the
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: world hasn't caught up to that idea. It took the
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: world twelve years to catch up to that idea essentially,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: and then it took another It took a little bit
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: longer for them to catch up with her being a
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: fifty year old TV star on PB I mean, it's
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: just insane. It's like a PBS in Boston somewhere. It's
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: like she makes an omelet and then all of a
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: sudden like, hey, you want to show. Okay, we don't
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: know how to do a show, let's just do this.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: And it just it's like if you would write it
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: in a screenplay, you'd be like, that doesn't make any sense.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: Well, you know the part of that that I just
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: love is that, you know, Julia just connected with the
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: audience immediately. It wasn't like the executive said, oh, we've
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: got a potential star here, let's invest in this Julia
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: child person. Let's bring her along. You know, No, they said, okay,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: we'll do three shows. Well, you know, we'll pay you
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: a minimal amount of money. And you know, she was
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: instantly just memorable. You know, people were like, who is
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: that woman? That crazy voice? But she's funny, but and
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: she knows a lot and we loved watching her. So
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: to me, it's this example of going direct to the audience,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: and you know that that's how it happened. It was
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: not the TV execs who were doing it.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: And what I loved also that you mentioned in the
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: documentary was the SNL skit by Dan Aykroyd, which I
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: always wondered. I'm like, I wonder if she actually got
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: a kick out of that or not? And it's and
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: the answer is in the documentary you were like, oh, okay,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: she brought it out constantly and constantly bringing it out
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: to show people. That must have been I mean, she
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: was an icon. She was even in the seventy five.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Was that seventy five?
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: Yes?
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: And remember, I mean remember what you know what SNL
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: in the seventies was what a huge big deal.
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: It was just like, you know, one.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: Of our characters mentions that, Like in the early days
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: of Julia's show in the mid sixties, everyone would be like,
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: did you see Julia Child? You know this week, have
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: you seen Julia's episode? And of course that's what SNL
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: was by the mid seventies, like every Sunday, I mean
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: I was a kid at that point and every Sunday
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: it was just like breaking down what happened on SNL
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: the night before. And I think that Julia understood that
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: having dan Aykroyd impersonate her was a real sign of
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: you know, cultural.
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: So she appreciated that.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: But like, you know, the problem, I mean, at the time,
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: I think it's so fantastic. The problem is the decades
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: have gone on that Betsy and I kind of came
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: to discover that people who are familiar with Julia vaguely
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: like that's what they remember that, you know, a caricature
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: of a completely zany, completely off the rails.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 30:11
  Speaker 5: Like drunk lady, you know, with the chicken, and like
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: you know.
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: Judi Child actually was a lot more than that. Not
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: only was she a true expert in food and bringing
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: that expertise to Americans like in a way that mattered.
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: So we are amused by that, as Julia was, but
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: we also wanted to, you know, the whole point of
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: the film is kind of to tell you what the
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: real story is behind that caricature.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, and you did a fantastic job doing that.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: Now did you learn what life lessons did you learn
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: from Julia? I mean, because you I mean, when you
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: go into when you go into a subject matter like this,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: like with RPG, that you you have to something has
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: to rub off on you. So what was that one?
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you one. You know, I like to cook,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: but often weeks go by before I really do cook,
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: and and sometimes my ambition gets the better of me,
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: like I think I can create some great thing, and
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: it's like it's ten of seven and the guests are
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: coming soon, and I'm like doing four different dishes, and
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: often I'll be disappointed with how one or the other
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: came out, and I in the past would apologize, oh,
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: you know, like this corn thing, it was supposed to
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: rise more or whatever. I am never ever apologizing again
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: for a dish that I serve to people, I mean,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: and I love that attitude. Julia's hall point was, Oh,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: you make a mistake, you make the best of it.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: You turn the potato soup flee into something else, and
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: you just serve it. You know. So you turn the
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: dessert that flopped into a soup and you serve it
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: and you not apologize. So that's my life lesson. And I,
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: once the pandemic and the shutdown is over and I
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: actually am entertaining regularly again, I plan to implement that advice.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: And again a before her time feminist message, because like apologizing.
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: For one right, it's a big lady problem.
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: Like it just you know, you do have an inclination
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: when you're presenting what you've done to a room full
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: of people to start pre telling them like everything that's.
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: Wrong with what you did.
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: Oh, this was actually supposed to be that I used
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: baking flower when I was supposed to.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Use fell on the floor.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: Just serve the book like, and Julia was like, you know,
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: we all make mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes, but
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: that said, don't like apologize for them, just like you know,
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: say that's what you know, say you meant this to be.
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: That kind of dish.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: It's like everyone like, if you, if you did it,
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: if you give it a little hype like the boys
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: often do, that's gonna that's gonna change people's perception of
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: it and of you, and it's a great it's a
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: great Julia Lesson.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as you know, I mean, I was I was
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: raised surrounded by women. So I have no brothers or sisters,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: but I was just women, very strong women around me
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: at all times. And now with my family, my daughters
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: and my wife, I have no testosterone at all in
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: my life, just the cat, and the cat got fixed.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: So I feel that And as a young man, you
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: never ever taught to apologize for anything. You just go
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: with it, you roll with it. And as I'm teaching
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: my girls that, I'm like, no, no, I'm teaching them
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: to be strong women, and to teach them from a
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: male side point of view and also from a female
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: side point of view with my wife of like, no,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: this is the world and this is what you're going
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: to be walking into. And my god, I can't even
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: imagine walking into the world that she walked into or
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: she lived in, you know, it's such a different world.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then imagine the world in France. I mean,
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: we love that part of the film in France to
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: kind of create how what kitchens were like there, I mean,
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: talk about a macho, sexist environment Julia Child walked into,
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: you know, going to the cord Umbleau with the master chef,
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: and the students were all male gis from the US
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: who were using the gi build to further their education
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: before they went back to cooking restaurants in the United States.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: And Julia is the only woman. We love that. And
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: she seemed to have a kind of confidence about her,
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: which I think was you know, just part of her makeup.
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: You know that she she didn't mind being six foot two.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: Some women really don't like being so tall. Didn't seem
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: to bother her. She married a man who was shorter
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: than she was. I mean, she didn't have that self consciousness.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: And I think also in breaking into a male world
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: that she found herself in France, she was just very
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: matter of fact about it. I want to learn how
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: to cook. This is the best place to do it,
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: and please, you know, let me into this class, and
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: of course impress them all.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: And again that fearlessness and what she said, because she
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: towered over most men, I mean easily. I think that's
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: also probably a little bit where the confidence came from,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: because she'd always towered over over men's in many ways.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is just me, my my psychoanalysis of it,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: but you know, she does feel that that kind of vibe.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: And you see these pictures of her in the in
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: the documentary where she's these guys are just so small,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: She's just towering over and it's just the confidence to
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: do whatever she wants.
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: It's it's pretty interesting, is even though all of the
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: ways that you know, we're kind of socialized as women
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: sometimes to be a little apologetic or a little demure
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: or not show yourself, you know, off into the world.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: And Julia's self self confidence and the feelness and the
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: and and the being her selfness is exactly what the
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: audience has responded to. They completely got that this was
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: an authentic person. They saw that they're seeing the real Julia.
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: They liked that she was fearless, They liked that she
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: wasn't apologizing, they liked that she was loud, even like
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: everything that was real about Juia, which is a lot
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: of things that girls actually aren't taught to be even still,
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: is actually what the public really responded to, and not
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: just women like guys liked her too.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the thing. I love the word to use,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: authentic because that's exactly what she was RBG is that
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: they were who they were, and they were comfortable in
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: their own skin and weren't trying to impress. They weren't
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: trying to be something they're not. They weren't putting an
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Instagram filter on themselves in many ways, and that's what
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: people are drawn to. I mean, in all of your work,
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: even doing news and other things throughout your career, have
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: you noticed the same thing I have is that the
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: people who get the attention some not all the times,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: but they are who they are and they're not trying
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: to be something they're not. Generally speaking, especially the important
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: people meaning important people, meaning that people who are changing
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: the world, people are being of service to the world,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: like RBG, like Julia, because I mean, you can't fake
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Julie like that was that's a hell of a performance.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: If she's pulled that off for so many years, that's
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: who she was. Do you find that that's one of
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: those common factors in all the work that you've done
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: over the years.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: It's an interesting question. I'm not sure that I would
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: want to make that generalization across the board.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: No, it's case by case, right, I.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: Think it's somewhat case by case. I mean, look, people
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: are very different. There's such a huge variety of people,
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: and sometimes you know, you'll what was so and so, like, Oh,
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: they're exactly like what they are, you know, what you
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: would imagine on television, and you know, you know, you
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: can say that, but that's not always the case. There
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: are certainly people who have a pretty good public and
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: I think that's you know, sometimes there are interests of
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: introverted people who then get in front of a camera
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: and they kind of transform into something else. And I'm
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: not saying I'm gonna call that phony. I'm just saying
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: that's the way they are, and then they get off
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: camera and Okay, that's it. You know, they're moving on
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: to something else. I mean that was not the case
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: with Julia. I mean, Julia was an extremely outgoing people person,
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: loved being on television and loved meeting people in the
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: grocery store. It didn't really matter to her. So I
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: would say it's true of her, and it's and it's
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: you know, I think Justice Ginsberg a very different character
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: of you know, really was an introvert who later in
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: life had this amazing celebrity. But she was pretty true
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: to her personality I think throughout and was very much
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: the same, you know, off and on camera, I think
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: in a way. But I wouldn't want to un realize
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: it to everybody, do you agree, Julie.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well it was when it was when Alex
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: brought in our broadcast news careers.
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: That we were both like.
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: Some people that were I mean, you know, look, there
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: are people that have gotten called out in recent you're
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: being the same nice guy on television that they in
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: real life that they might have appeared.
• 39:24
  Speaker 5: To be on your morning television show. So I'm just.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Saying there is there's that, Yes, there was this, Yes,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Juliu had a nice smile on her face as you
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: were talking back. She's like, Okay, I got yep, it's
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: in my head. I know it is. Now I have
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: to ask you, what do you think Julia would do
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: with today's technology of social media, of all of that stuff.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Do you think she would have Would she have an
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: Instagram account even in the later the years of her life,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: would she be out there really kind of connecting with
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: her audience in that way. We'll be right back after
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: or a word from our sponsor and now back to
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: the show.
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: In your opinion, well, there's an interesting mixed thing like
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: of Jua.
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: My husband actually always likes to talk about it.
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: There's there's some uh, there's some hypothetical about like what
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: Napoleon had had.
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: To be fifty two? And like, well, of course this
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: is sort of cellar.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: What if Julia had had I think I think even
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: might be an esnl skin, But what if Julia had
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: had Instagram?
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: There's sort of there's sort of a two part answer.
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: One is that the whole love of food on Instagram
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: is really the world that Julia created, that like, food
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: is this amazing thing that so much it's not just
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: what we get to nourish ourselves, but you know, it's
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: like to be celebrated and shown off and like so
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: that's like really validation of who Julia was.
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: On the other hand, Julia had a role. We mentioned
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: it in the film.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: She called it French rules, which is when your food
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: is served and still hot, you eat it immediately. You
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: do not stop what you're doing to take the most
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: glomorous overhead. Food is meant to be eaten, not photographs.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: So on both sides of that, Now, did you guys
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: find yourself eating more? Why do you mean this thing?
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Because I found myself wanting to eat, Whereas those beautiful
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: food footage that you guys were shooting I knew were
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: an archival because I was looking like, oh that's fresh.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Did you find yourself like, I mean, did you find
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: a new respect for food? Did you find a new uh?
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Just you know all of that while making.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: This Yeah, I mean we have to say that we
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: filmed most of it before the shutdown. We filmed a
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: lot of it in twenty and nineteen, including an amazing
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: trip to France that was really so much fun to
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: be to visit Julius haunts and to eat some great food.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: But you know, I think when the shutdown happened, all
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: of us changed our relationship and chip to food and
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: to cooking, and you know, I found myself going to
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: the farmer's market, you know, shopping outside and thinking more
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: about fresh food. And definitely, you know, both my husband
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: and I were just cooking for each other every single night.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: And one night we've made like a list of all
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: of our regular dishes that we liked, you know, that
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: we're in our rotation, and they were like about I
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: don't know, forty five of them that were in our
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: now in our rotation, and I think so we really
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: expanded our possibilities. And I guess that was partly about
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: the pandemic, and I think partly because all day long,
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: you know, I was being immersed in this world of food.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: In the middle of the pandemic. We managed to do
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: the high end cinematography that you see throughout the film
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: that which was last summer that we filmed under somewhat
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: difficult circums dances with everybody masked or whatever, and created
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: a studio down in Chelsea and replicated Julia's kitchen. Our producer,
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Holly Siegel, did an incredible job basically having a shop
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: construct Julia's kitchen and sourced all the copper pots and
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: the Garland stove and everything else, and then filmed for
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: about a week with our cinematographer, Claudi Rashki, And then
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: similarly in France, we were filming with a photographer using
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: macro technology, really tight shooting and slow mo of the
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: food that was Nanda Brettelard in Paris. We'd intended for
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: the two of them to be together or to but
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: because of the pandemic that was not possible, so we
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: did the parachute remotely. So there was a lot of
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: thinking about food, and I guess it did influence us.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And we brought in a fruit food stylist and
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: cook Susan Spungen, who not only prepared all the film
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: and actually you prepared all the food and you actually
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: see her in the film sometimes because it's kind of
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: her hands that are rolling out the dough and that
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: sort of thing, but helped us in the substantive quest
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: of figuring out which Julia Child recipes would work well
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: with which scenes. Like one example is we wanted to
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: show something kind of messing up during the phase that
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: they're experimenting with all different recipes and we talked to
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: Susan about like, oh, what could we show that would
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: like screw up all the time. She came up with
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: hollandaiy sauce and how it breaks and looks all curdly
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: and disgusting, and then you know, for looking for the
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: sort of love in the afternoon sensual scene, we asked
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: her and we had a number of discussions. You know,
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: what is the So what dessert is like the sexiest,
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: like what do you think? And we went in thinking
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: it was going to be chocolate, because when you think
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: desserts like chocolate is the first in your mind. But
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: then she described to us that pair of tart and
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: every step, all the rolling the dough and the poaching
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: the pears in red wine and that custard. Now I'm
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: going to have to go anyt But so when you
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: talk about like were we in, I mean, you know,
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: just the enthusiasm for even certain certain food groups definitely
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: grew during the production of this film.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that tart. When I was watching it is it
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: is a fairly sensual tart. I had no idea tart
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: could be sensual. I was watching I was like, Wow,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: I want to, I want to, I want to have
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: a slice of that right now. Now, where can people
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: watch the film? And when?
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: As we released, Yes, people can see Julia in theaters
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: in New York and Los Angeles starting November twelfth, and
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: then it will be rolled out in many minut theaters
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: in cities around the country in the subsequent weeks. Uh
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: So by Thanksgiving, uh it should be available. You want
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: to see it before your Thanksgiving meal. You might want
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: to have a snack just beforehand so you're not too
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: hungry during it or whatever. I think it's a good
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: it's it's potential good Thanksgiving fair.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Now, And what advice would you give a filmmaker who
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: wants to get into the documentary game?
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: WHOA hard It's a hard question.
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think you know there's On the one hand,
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: technology is such that people could be experimenting with making
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: short films on their own. That probably doesn't mean that
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: that's something that's going to be headed for distribution. The
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: other thing is to just you know, get there. There
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: are a lot of documentary production companies all around, and
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: getting in on the ground floor in the interning in
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: production assistant mode is kind of always the way to start.
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: But like learning learning, some technical skills is kind of important.
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: Some shooting and editing skills is great these days, as
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: well as sort of some substantive knowledge. We always try
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: to tell people it's actually good to know, like when
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: people ask, oh, should I major in film or communications
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: in my undergraduate college? Like maybe, but also it's actually
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: good to learn some things about the world and to
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: understand something about business or science or politics or history,
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: like you know, especially for documentaries, like you need to
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: have some grounding in the real world before you're maybe
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: going out and trying to say something about the world,
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: which at its heart is what may be a documentary
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: is all about.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Now, I'm going to ask you a couple questions, ask
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: all of my guests, what is the lesson that took
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: you the longest to learn learn, whether in the film
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: business or in life.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Calex.
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: Let me go, I think of one while you got one,
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: but you go ahead, you go back, Okay. I was
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: just gonna say, to not worry too I mean, in
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: some ways it fits in with the messages we were
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: saying earlier to not worry too much about things that
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: go wrong, Like.
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: When something goes a little wrong, that's all right.
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: Things have gone wrong in every film that we've made,
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: and you it comes round like the biggest problem is
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: what happens after the thing goes wrong, where everyone is
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: so panicked about the thing that went wrong and trying
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: to convince themselves and the others that it is not
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: their fault. But then a cascade of things begin to
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: go wrong from there. So like things go wrong, forgive
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: yourself and move on.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I took the heart are Rbg's advice
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: which she got from her mother, basically that don't waste
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: your time on anger, you know, try to move past it.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: And yes, it doesn't mean you're not going to be angry.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: Of course you're going to get angry, you're a human being,
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: but try not to get consumed by anger and just
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: find the way around it because it's a waste of
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: your energy.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Now, in any of your projects, there must have been
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: a day that the whole world came crashing down around you.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: What was that event and how did you get past
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: it and what did you use to get past it?
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: Well, I would say my whole world came crashing down
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: around me when I lost a job in a very
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: high profile way in two thousand and five, when I
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: was at CBS News, and you know, it was kind
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: of a wake up for me.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: But opened up doors to a whole new life because
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: I had been an executive, and you know, executive jobs
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: are risky. You know, you're always you're always the person
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: you know that gets blamed when something goes wrong underneath
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: you when you know. That's sort of what happened to me.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: But in general, I think executive jobs are tough. And
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: I realized that I so loved making stories. Telling stories.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: That's what I really love more than I loved being
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: an executive, although you know, I think it was okay
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: at it, but I really loved doing that and so
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: that allowed me to pivot back to what I love
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: doing the most. And Julie, yeah, crash, she's never crashed. Clashing.
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: The crashing experience, to me, the thing that I associate.
• 51:11
  Speaker 5: Most with that is like when you know something that.
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: You thought was gonna happen like doesn't happen, And that
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: actually happens a lot in a world, like where you
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: thought you had to shoot and then you didn't, and
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: the person cancels or you thought you had a booking
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: and someone was going to cooperate with something and they didn't.
• 51:28
  Speaker 5: And sort of similar to what back to be saying,
• 51:30
  Speaker 5: like in the end you I.
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: Almost think almost everything that happens, there's a way in
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: the end takeing like.
• 51:35
  Speaker 5: Oh, it was good that that did. It was great
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: that we didn't actually.
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: Get that personal because it would have best, it wouldn't
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: have let the next thing.
• 51:41
  Speaker 5: It was so amazing.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: So and last question, uh, Three documentaries that all documentarian
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: should watch.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, all right, Hoop Dreams, Yes to my mind.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: And I saw the re mastering of Hoop Dreams, thinking
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: oh my god, this thing is so long. You know,
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: I think it's like three hours or something, and I
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: was thinking maybe it's too long. It is it's just masterful.
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: It's unbelievable and was so lucky to see it again recently.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: All right, that's one documentary.
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: See I think I'm going to say Waltz with Basher.
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: I really recommend that to everyone. It's an animated doc
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: that came out probably around two thousand and eight something
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: like that. That's like just telling a story in a
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: really new way, but that feels really emotionally profound.
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: So that's one that I think.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Of and one more. Any of any of you, I
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: won't put you on the on the spot for three each.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Okay, there's so many, like what have I like?
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: For me, it was like searching for Sugarman? Uh? Which
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: was that was a great one? And Walking the is
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: it walking the line or the one with about the
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: type rope guy? Between the twin Hours.
• 53:13
  Speaker 5: We both loved Raoul Pex I Am not your Negro.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: I Am not your Negro.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: Really different take on an archival. It's like an ray,
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: it's an archival film. It tells me something about American history.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: I really like stories. Stories we tell you know that
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: Sarah poly film, which I thought was just really pushing
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: the boundaries of storytelling in a way that works like
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: sometimes I think the boundaries get pushed in a way
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: that concuse me. I thought that was Wow, what an
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: interesting way to tell a first person film. I don't know,
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: I like that one.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Betsy and Julie so many But thank you guys again
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: so much for being on the show. I truly appreciated it,
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: and I hope everybody goes out and sees Julia And
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: if you haven't seen RBG you have to go see
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: RBG as well. So thank you guys for doing what
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: you're doing, and please continue making amazing documentary. So thank you.
• 54:10
  Speaker 5: We will thank you.
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Julian Betsy for coming on the
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: show and dropping their knowledge bombs on the drive today.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. If you want to get links
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: to watch their new film Julia, head over to the
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash for twelve.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening guys, as always, keep
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Screenwriting dot tv.