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NANCY GUTHRIE SEARCH: THE GOOD, BAD, & UGLY, HAUNTING NEW CLUE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: The search for Nancy Guthrie. Tonight, the good, the bad,
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Speaker 1: and the ugly emerging in the investigation as a haunting
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Speaker 1: new clue emerges. Good evening, I Nancy Grace, this is
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Speaker 1: Claim Stories. I want to thank you for being with
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Speaker 1: us in the last weeks. The FBI has confirmed that
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Speaker 1: they obtain DNA from inside Nancy Guthrie's home.
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Speaker 2: The possible susserback, there's a possible new information. Pay mccowney
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Speaker 2: not jumping in, nobody providing us with a lot of
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Speaker 2: information on this Nancy.
0:44
Speaker 1: Tonight, a disturbing fact emerges from within the high profile investigation.
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Speaker 1: Insiders now state the details behind the scenes classification of
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Speaker 1: the quote good, the bad, and the ugly evidence that
1:00
Speaker 1: has defined this case, and the very very serious regrets
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Speaker 1: from within the investigation. What are we learning tonight, straight
1:13
Speaker 1: out to Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave Matt The good,
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Speaker 1: the bad, the ugly. I don't like the sound of that.
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Speaker 1: When we were talking about the investigation into the disappearance
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Speaker 1: of Nancy Guthrie, what is that? The good, the bad,
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Speaker 1: the ugly?
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Speaker 2: Basically talking about the emails that were reaching out the
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Speaker 2: ransom notes Nancy that came in the good, the bad,
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Speaker 2: the ugly, the good. Howard Bloom Kill, a surprise running
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Speaker 2: investigative journalist, says that the good ones are the first
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Speaker 2: ransom notes Nancy that were sent to local television stations
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Speaker 2: in that market. Is that those were the good one?
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Speaker 2: He believes those were the true ones. Remember how Savannah
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Speaker 2: talked about believing a couple of the ransom notes were real.
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Speaker 1: That's the good. Hold on, let me focus on what
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Speaker 1: you just said, Dave Matt. You're stating that blom has
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Speaker 1: learned that the good portions of the investigation, as he
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Speaker 1: describes it, are nuggets of information, correctly describing, for instance,
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Speaker 1: what Nancy Guthrie was wearing the night she was kidnapped.
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Speaker 1: The emails in the quote good evidence includes an early
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Speaker 1: one an early on email asking for four million dollars ransom,
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Speaker 1: stating that missus Guthrie was quote safe but scared, ending
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Speaker 1: into very disturbing words or else. Okay, joining us right now,
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Speaker 1: a very special guest who has had access to insight
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Speaker 1: information in the case. It's Howard bloom renowned author investigative journalist.
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Speaker 1: He just recently published a two part investigation series for
2:58
Speaker 1: air Mail in side the search for Nancy Guthrie. He
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Speaker 1: is also author of multiple books, the most recent When
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Speaker 1: the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho student Murders. Howard,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us tonight. First of all,
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Speaker 1: you have classified the investigation evidence into three categories, the good,
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Speaker 1: the bad, the ugly. I've read your reasoning and I
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Speaker 1: do not disagree with it. Explain.
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Speaker 3: The ransom notes, according to the investigators who've been involved
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Speaker 3: in the case from the beginning, are divided into three
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Speaker 3: distinct types. They've called them colloquially the good, the bad,
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Speaker 3: and the ugly. The good notes are the two notes
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Speaker 3: that came in early on in the case, just within
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Speaker 3: days after the abduction, and this was followed by another note.
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Speaker 3: These had the investigators believe IP addresses crypto wallets. That
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Speaker 3: made sense.
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Speaker 1: That is incredibly important that we are learning at this
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Speaker 1: hour late in the game, that her pajamas, her outfit,
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Speaker 1: specifically what she was wearing, was accurately described. Now we
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Speaker 1: know that she was carted out of the home wearing
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Speaker 1: her pajamas, and we know that because Savannah Guthrie told
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Speaker 1: us that that very important and critical fact.
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Speaker 4: It is surreal, it's how is it possible that we
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Speaker 4: are having to make a video.
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Speaker 1: Speaking to.
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Speaker 4: A kidnapper who took an eighty four year old woman
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Speaker 4: in the dead of night in her pajamas, with no shoes,
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Speaker 4: without her medicine. This little person.
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Speaker 1: That from our friends at today, Savannah's paying just below
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Speaker 1: the surface. So we knew since Savannah stated that that
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Speaker 1: she was taken out in her pajamas. But tonight to
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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University,
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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of
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Speaker 1: a hit new podcast series Body Bags of Joe Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: but for our purposes, forensic expert and death scene investigator
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Speaker 1: with over ten thousand death scenes under his belt of
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Speaker 1: all types, including the only possibilities, accidental natural causes, suicide unexplained,
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Speaker 1: and homicide. This is critical. So the world knew that
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Speaker 1: she was taken out into pajamas after Savannah told us that,
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Speaker 1: But now we're learning this early on Ransom note specifically
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Speaker 1: described exactly what her pajamas looked like.
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Speaker 5: That's critical, yes, of course, it is that gives you
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Speaker 5: intimate inside knowledge that this individual would have had relative
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Speaker 5: to relative to how she was dressed that night. That
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Speaker 5: puts you in the same space because you've got confirmatory
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Speaker 5: comments from Savannah. Think about that and how valuable that is, Nancy,
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Speaker 5: And so that's kind of real time information, isn't it
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Speaker 5: when you marry that up. And also you begin to
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Speaker 5: think about, well, she's talking about how diminutive her mom is,
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Speaker 5: how helpless she is, these sorts of things, And I
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Speaker 5: find it interesting that the kidnappers might very well understand
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Speaker 5: how critical it is to take care of her health,
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Speaker 5: how important it is that she is in fact fragile
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Speaker 5: and trying to reassure the family that she's okay for
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Speaker 5: right now. So I would think I would think that
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Speaker 5: they would. This gives me an indication from an investigative standpoint,
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Speaker 5: they've got inside information about her, Nancy. That's what I've
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Speaker 5: always thought about this, that they've been observing, they've been watching.
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Speaker 1: You know, I think is critical to put it mildly.
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Speaker 1: Bryanthus Gibbons joining us He is the director of Operations
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Speaker 1: at USPA Nationwide Security. What does that mean? He leads
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Speaker 1: a team of investigators that go around the world finding
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Speaker 1: and extracting missing people, including in Mexico, which is relevant
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Speaker 1: to tonight's program, Bryfus Gibbons. We're just learning they could
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Speaker 1: identify and describe her pajamas. That's the big deal. And
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Speaker 1: if we're learning that tonight, what else in that original
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Speaker 1: ransom note was specific? That is a big screw up.
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Speaker 1: To put it extremely mildly, Yeah.
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Speaker 6: That's a major deal and that's something that early on
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Speaker 6: we were speculating about that. What about these early communications?
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Speaker 6: What did it include? Did it describe missus Guthrie's bedroom,
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Speaker 6: did it describe how she was taking out? Did it
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Speaker 6: describe what she was wearing? And what Howard blooms On
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Speaker 6: covered is that it may have had a number of
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Speaker 6: those elements that describe the specifics that only the abductors
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Speaker 6: would know. So that confirms, to what extent possible, the
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Speaker 6: veracity of these early communications to the news outlets.
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Speaker 1: Back to Howard bloom renowned author investigative journalist. He just
8:21
Speaker 1: dropped a two part investigative series for air Mail, Inside
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Speaker 1: the Search for Nancy Guthrie. Howard talk about a missed opportunity.
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Speaker 1: To put it mildly, the people.
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Speaker 3: Who are running the investigation now are basically a special
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Speaker 3: task force. It involves FBI members, about twenty of them
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Speaker 3: and approximately five members of the Tucson Detective Homicide Detective Department.
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Speaker 3: And looking back on things, they've come up with a
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Speaker 3: unique way of expressing how the case went that they
8:56
Speaker 3: call it the Big Jake's theory. What does that mean? Well,
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Speaker 3: Big was a nineteen seventy one John Wayne western that
9:04
Speaker 3: was filmed about four hundred miles north part of at
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Speaker 3: least from a Nancy Guthrie's residence, and in that movie,
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Speaker 3: Big Jake's grandson is kidnapped. They immediately decided to pay
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Speaker 3: the ransom money. But the Big Jake, John Wayne, tough
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Speaker 3: as nails John Wayne, is going to go. He's going
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Speaker 3: to get the moransom money back and he's also going
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Speaker 3: to get his grandson back. What the investigators decided to
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Speaker 3: do at the beginning of this case, when they got
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Speaker 3: the initial four million dollar ransom demand that seemed legitimate,
9:38
Speaker 3: that made sense to everyone involved, they decided to be
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Speaker 3: a little either cautious or cute depending upon who were
9:45
Speaker 3: whom you're speaking to. They didn't want to risk the money,
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Speaker 3: which now seems rather foolish. Is there are one chance
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Speaker 3: to get Nancy back. Money deposited into a crypto wallet
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Speaker 3: could have been traced and then when the money was
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Speaker 3: taken out, because money in the crypto wallet is not
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Speaker 3: really any good to kidnappers unless they can spend it.
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Speaker 3: As soon as that money leaves the wallet, would the
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Speaker 3: FBI would have pounced on them.
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Speaker 1: So instead of paying the ransom, they try to decoy,
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Speaker 1: in effect Howard Bloom.
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Speaker 3: What they decide to do instead was what they call
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Speaker 3: tickling the wire. That's the term the FBI agents use,
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Speaker 3: and that means basically, they deposited a small amount into
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Speaker 3: the wallet and see if that would make the kidnappers respond.
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Speaker 3: How small was that amount? Oddly, it was one hundred
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Speaker 3: and fifty two dollars and the money just laid their
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Speaker 3: dormant inside the wallet. They never touched it, and any
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Speaker 3: chance of getting Nancy Guthrie back alive, the investigators believe,
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Speaker 3: evaporated in that period when the FBI tried to beat
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Speaker 3: perhaps too shrewd and tickled the wire rather than get
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Speaker 3: of pay the money and get Nancy back.
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Speaker 1: So tonight we're learning the truth about that odd that
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Speaker 1: unusual amount of money that had been put into the
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Speaker 1: crypto wallet of the kidnapper who wrote the ransom note
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Speaker 1: who accurately and in great detail described Nancy Guthrie's pajamas
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Speaker 1: the night she was kidnapped. Dave mack I recalled distinctly
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Speaker 1: when that happened.
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Speaker 2: The one hundred and fifty two dollars deposit was made
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Speaker 2: on February tenth. That was the day that the FBI
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Speaker 2: and went out there and tried to get some type
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Speaker 2: of action. Okay, the ransom people were expecting this money
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Speaker 2: in that bitcoin wallet, and that's the day money or
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Speaker 2: bitcoint was transferred. The problem was that it wasn't enough
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Speaker 2: money for anybody to do anything. It was a wasted opportunity.
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Speaker 2: Nancy one hundred and fifty two dollars is not going
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Speaker 2: to get somebody to roll over on their compatriots in
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Speaker 2: a kidnapping scheme where they want million. That's what it
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Speaker 2: amounted to, was a lost opportunity.
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Speaker 1: Brian fitz Gibbons joining us, this is your bread and butter.
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Speaker 1: What do you think now that we're learning what really happened?
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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think confirming that these initial messages were authentic,
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Speaker 6: and then to hear that one hundred and fifty two
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Speaker 6: dollars were sent, and hey, I'll say I'm not an
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Speaker 6: expert in hostage negotiations. This doesn't seem like that move
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Speaker 6: made any sense, and as Howard Bloom has identified, this
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Speaker 6: was a huge loss of opportunity.
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Speaker 1: I mean, hold on, Brian Fitzgibbons, woman, I think I
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Speaker 1: need a shrink. Joining us Doctor Janey Lacey, psychotherapist, CEO
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Speaker 1: of Life Counseling, author of How to Heal from a
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Speaker 1: Toxic Relationship, host of Let's Talk About It With Janey Lacey.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Lacy, thank you for being with us, Doctor Lacy.
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Speaker 1: I don't know if in your practice you deal with
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Speaker 1: hardened criminals, killers, dope lords. I do, and did face
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Speaker 1: to face every day for over a decade. You don't
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Speaker 1: play with them. You do not negotiate with them. It
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Speaker 1: doesn't work. For instance, if I was doing a plea
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Speaker 1: negotiation and I said this is my best offer twenty
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Speaker 1: to serve, if they didn't take it, I had to
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Speaker 1: go to trial. I could not back down once I
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Speaker 1: said this is it. You can't back down. So when
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Speaker 1: you were dealing with people that would kidnap Nancy Guthrie,
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Speaker 1: an eighty four year old lady in the middle of
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Speaker 1: the night, dragging her out without shoes, blood all over
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Speaker 1: the front porch. Let's have a little reality check right now,
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Speaker 1: give me a shot of Nancy Guffy's blood on the porch,
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Speaker 1: which is another whole thing to Joe Scott when I
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Speaker 1: get to it. There are reports now the blood trail
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Speaker 1: seemingly went in a different direction than what we were
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Speaker 1: led to believe. That's a whole other can of worms
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Speaker 1: we'll get into. But doctor Jane Lacy, you don't play
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Speaker 1: with these people dangling one hundred and fifty two dollars.
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Speaker 1: They probably all just laughed, Well, you said it, Nancy.
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Speaker 7: Like perpetrators who target seniors, it's not random. They're they're calculated.
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Speaker 7: They're they're looking for someone they proceed as vulnerable, and
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Speaker 7: they are mean business. They're intentional.
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Speaker 8: They watch, they pick, I mean, they plan, they assess,
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Speaker 8: and they actually were giving something and at this potential
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Speaker 8: opportunity that was missed.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 8: We also know that predators operate on patterns, how they select,
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Speaker 8: how they approach, where they go, who they go after,
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Speaker 8: I mean, their patterns and behavior, and that's how we
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Speaker 8: can have catch. That's how you catch these people, and
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Speaker 8: that's how we understand them. So when there's an opportunity
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Speaker 8: that was missed. I also think about the family and
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Speaker 8: the exponential trauma that occurred with this potential a critical,
15:01
Speaker 8: critical mistake.
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Speaker 1: Those photos you were seeing are from our friends at
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Speaker 1: Fox News. Straight back to renowned author investigative reporter Howard Bloom,
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Speaker 1: who is author of his latest book, When the Night
15:14
Speaker 1: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. He
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Speaker 1: just dropped a two part investigative series in air mail.
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Speaker 1: You get it online, that's where I read it, titled
15:25
Speaker 1: Inside the Search for Nancy Guthrie. Now you outline the good,
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Speaker 1: Howard Bloom, and the good was we can catch them.
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Speaker 1: This is a real ransom. Note it's credible. There are
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Speaker 1: facts the pajamas and maybe more that lets us note
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Speaker 1: this is real. They were asking at that time for
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Speaker 1: four million dollars. That was the good. They were that
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Speaker 1: close to catching because once you pay the money into crypto,
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Speaker 1: you don't have them yet. But once they try to
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Speaker 1: transfer it out of crypto into real money, that's when
15:59
Speaker 1: you catch them. So at that juncture, we know bitcoin
16:04
Speaker 1: can be traced. Contrary to what we've been said by
16:08
Speaker 1: so many talking heads, Bitcoin can be traced. I mean,
16:12
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the Silt Road investigation. I'm thinking of
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Speaker 1: the Zaying investigation where millions and millions of dollars were
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Speaker 1: recovered and those were big operations. Brian Fitzgibbons, USPA Nationwide Security.
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Speaker 1: It's very simple. Actually, it's called a blockchain analysis. Why
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Speaker 1: do they call it that because every transaction is recorded
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Speaker 1: and it appears as if it's in a block, it's
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Speaker 1: like a computer print out in a block. Then you
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Speaker 1: follow this transaction to the previous transaction or to the
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Speaker 1: next transaction, and it becomes a chain of transactions. Is
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Speaker 1: called block chain analysis. Been many many successful crypto investigations
17:04
Speaker 1: by the DOJ by the irs. You don't want them
17:08
Speaker 1: up your tailpipe. And they've recovered millions of dollars. So
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Speaker 1: at that juncture, before the one hundred and fifty two
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Speaker 1: dollar tickle and teas was done, there was actually a
17:21
Speaker 1: chance to track by blockchain analysis. Brian Fitzgibbons. It's been
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Speaker 1: done before.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, certainly, and you mentioned a number of the major
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Speaker 6: cases in these cryptocurrency. Experts within federal law enforcement have
17:38
Speaker 6: a number of tools at the disposal. But beyond that,
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Speaker 6: this is a public record. The blockchain is visible. Everything
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Speaker 6: that happens on the blockchain is a matter of public record.
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Speaker 6: Where the abductors would run into an issue is when
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Speaker 6: they began moving that money, to start accessing it, to
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Speaker 6: turn it into actual currency outside of the blockchain, outside
18:04
Speaker 6: of bitcoin, to redeem that and that's where federal authorities
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Speaker 6: very likely would have been able to track down the
18:11
Speaker 6: perpetrators of this crime.
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Speaker 9: We received an alleged ransom note that we forwarded on
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Speaker 9: to the authorities to the sheriff's department. The FBI called
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Speaker 9: us a few hours later, wanted to had a bunch
18:25
Speaker 9: of questions about that note. There are deadlines, I say
18:30
Speaker 9: plural deadlines in this letter, and one is looming.
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Speaker 10: If this isn't indeed a legit letter, the authorities are
18:40
Speaker 10: taking something serious from the abductor now. As far as
18:44
Speaker 10: that's because that's why the family would sit down and
18:46
Speaker 10: make that right that video.
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Speaker 9: Yesterday, when the family is reaching out to say we're
18:50
Speaker 9: ready to talk, this letter suggests no talk.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 9: That was made clear right at the beginning.
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Speaker 1: That is from our friend Harvey leven Over at TMZ.
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Speaker 1: It seems like yesterday it happened, but instead of advising
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Speaker 1: the Guthries to pay the ransom, or a substantial part
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Speaker 1: of the ransom, a tickle in tease was done instead. Okay,
19:18
Speaker 1: then there is the bad, Howard Bloom. As you say,
19:23
Speaker 1: insiders in the investigation refer to it. What's the bad?
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Speaker 3: Well, the point was this. This note began with a
19:30
Speaker 3: sort of apology. The writer said that they were sorry
19:36
Speaker 3: for Nancy's death, they hadn't planned to do that, and then,
19:40
Speaker 3: as if on a dime, they turned tough. They said,
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Speaker 3: we can make a deal. You pay this or else
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Speaker 3: a meaning or else I'll never see the body of
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Speaker 3: the Nancy Guthrie again. In response to this note, Savannah
19:55
Speaker 3: Guthrie made an Instagram post the next day and she
20:00
Speaker 3: pleaded for basically, we need closure, please, we want to
20:04
Speaker 3: be united with our mother. She didn't conceive that her
20:07
Speaker 3: mother was dead, but that was the implication that I
20:10
Speaker 3: got from that posting nance by Savannah Guthrie.
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Speaker 1: Well, Howard Bloom, what you're theorizing seems to be corroborated
20:22
Speaker 1: by one of Savannah's statements.
20:26
Speaker 4: We received your message, and we understand. We beg you
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Speaker 4: now to return our mother to us so that we
20:35
Speaker 4: can celebrate with her. This is the only way we
20:38
Speaker 4: will have peace. This is very valuable to us and
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Speaker 4: we will.
20:44
Speaker 1: Pay straight out to Joe Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, what
20:48
Speaker 1: Savannah says right there, Remember when we first heard that,
20:53
Speaker 1: it sounds as if sounded as if she wanted to
20:55
Speaker 1: have a celebration of life. That we chose to interpret
20:59
Speaker 1: it that she believed Miss Guthrie was still alive and
21:03
Speaker 1: they would celebrate when she got home. But what Howard
21:08
Speaker 1: Bloom is stating about the good, the bad, and the
21:10
Speaker 1: ugly from inside the investigation as it relates to the evidence,
21:13
Speaker 1: this seems to corroborate it.
21:16
Speaker 5: Yeah, it does, and the veil has been ripped in two.
21:20
Speaker 5: Right at this point in time, you begin to see
21:23
Speaker 5: how actually ugly this is and disregard, I think to
21:27
Speaker 5: a great degree. Let me tell you what the good,
21:29
Speaker 5: the bad, and the ugly are here are specifically the
21:32
Speaker 5: really bad and the really ugly. When you go back
21:35
Speaker 5: to that first point where they're talking about tickling the wire,
21:39
Speaker 5: you know, guess who's going to receive the brunt of
21:42
Speaker 5: the anger relative to this. This is going to be
21:45
Speaker 5: missus Guthrie. All right. So if you think, if you
21:50
Speaker 5: think the blood evidence at the scene, at her home
21:53
Speaker 5: was something. You know, she's going to get the full on,
21:58
Speaker 5: the full on bad tree here as she is in
22:01
Speaker 5: the custody of these people and Lord only knows what
22:05
Speaker 5: has happened to her at this point, Tom, But apparently
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Speaker 5: Savannah has taken this as confirmation that her mother is
22:12
Speaker 5: no longer with us. Now, you know. The trick is
22:15
Speaker 5: I think at this point in Tom, to try to
22:17
Speaker 5: determine who actually perpetrated this, who did it, and where
22:20
Speaker 5: missus Guthrie's remains are if we are to go down
22:24
Speaker 5: this road, and that's very very.
22:25
Speaker 2: Important, Nancy. A couple of things have come up that
22:28
Speaker 2: are just shocking. You know. We had the first two
22:32
Speaker 2: email ransom demands that are considered to be credible, Well
22:35
Speaker 2: there was a third. It arrived on February sixth. Then
22:38
Speaker 2: it came from the same IP address of the ransom
22:41
Speaker 2: demands that had mentioned the broken flood light out in
22:44
Speaker 2: the back porch and what Nancy Guthrie was wearing when
22:47
Speaker 2: she went to bed the night she was kidnapped. So
22:50
Speaker 2: those two were considered credible. And this email came from
22:53
Speaker 2: the same IP address as the first two, but in
22:56
Speaker 2: this one, after the previous email claiming that Nancy Guthrie,
23:00
Speaker 2: who was safe but scared. This email on February sixth
23:03
Speaker 2: apologizes for accidentally killing Nancy Guthrie. The writer of this
23:09
Speaker 2: letter claims they killed her and it's just shocking and disturbing.
23:15
Speaker 2: But while admitting to quote accidentally killing Nancy Guthrie, the
23:19
Speaker 2: writer of this email wants four million in Bitcoin to
23:23
Speaker 2: return the body to the family now. The very next
23:26
Speaker 2: day after this email was received, the next day, Savannah
23:30
Speaker 2: did a video for Instagram or on Instagram with her
23:34
Speaker 2: brother Cameron and sister Annie where they said they wanted
23:37
Speaker 2: their mother back so they could celebrate. Remember well that
23:39
Speaker 2: came the day after the email about accidentally killing her.
23:44
Speaker 1: So, Howard what now?
23:47
Speaker 3: At this point, it's a desperation strategy for the investigators.
23:52
Speaker 3: It's pretty hard to judge if a tip is valid
23:56
Speaker 3: or not, but you really have to follow them up
23:59
Speaker 3: because you've gotten something else. They've played all their cards
24:02
Speaker 3: and now what their investigators are basically doing at this
24:05
Speaker 3: point has been explained to me as they're waiting for
24:09
Speaker 3: the one tip to come in which we'll explain things.
24:13
Speaker 3: I mean, there's reward money offered for a tip. The
24:18
Speaker 3: Guthrie family is willing and willing to pay too. I
24:22
Speaker 3: think something will eventually, they'll find out, someone will want
24:26
Speaker 3: to make money out of this. That's unfortunately just human nature.
24:30
Speaker 3: But to this point, there's a lot of desert out there,
24:33
Speaker 3: a lot of places to hide a body, and it
24:37
Speaker 3: might be a long time. It just depends on someone's greed.
24:42
Speaker 1: So Howard Bloom, that's the good, the bad, and now
24:49
Speaker 1: the ugly.
24:50
Speaker 3: And then there are the extremely ugly notes, as the
24:54
Speaker 3: investigators call them. These are the notes that how can
24:58
Speaker 3: you understand these people? They're trying to take advantage of
25:01
Speaker 3: the torture, of the tortured moments that the Guthrie family
25:05
Speaker 3: is going through, and they're trying to exploit ransom from them,
25:09
Speaker 3: and they have no idea of the facts, they have
25:11
Speaker 3: no idea where the body is. These people should be condemned,
25:16
Speaker 3: you know. Dante wrote about the ten circles of Hell.
25:18
Speaker 3: They deserve to be put in the lowest circle of hell.
25:21
Speaker 3: If there's anything lower than a kidnapper, someone who wants
25:24
Speaker 3: to take advantage of someone else's life and good fortune
25:28
Speaker 3: and ruin it. And there's people who weren't even involved
25:31
Speaker 3: in the kidnapping, and they want to now exploit these circumstances.
25:36
Speaker 1: Which leads us to the latest a haunting, an eerie
25:42
Speaker 1: clue emerging in the search for Nancy Guthrie. So bottom line,
25:47
Speaker 1: Doctor Jamie Lacey, the ugly that Bloom is referring to
25:53
Speaker 1: are people capitalizing on Nancy Guthrie's kidnap and trying to
25:58
Speaker 1: milk the family from money when I know nothing about
26:02
Speaker 1: her whereabouts.
26:03
Speaker 8: You know, when we think about like investigators potentially making
26:07
Speaker 8: this critical era, it strips away the last confidence that
26:11
Speaker 8: the family would believe that the already's had and their expertise
26:16
Speaker 8: to navigate their safety to.
26:18
Speaker 7: Bring their mom back home. So they lose hope. There's
26:21
Speaker 7: loss of control.
26:22
Speaker 8: You know, I'm thinking about sitting in the families chose
26:25
Speaker 8: the second guessing.
26:28
Speaker 7: Should they have pushed?
26:29
Speaker 8: They're asking these questions, should we have followed this advice?
26:32
Speaker 8: I mean, could we have done something different? I mean,
26:33
Speaker 8: all of that would be so normal. We think about
26:36
Speaker 8: the erosion of trust, right think about the ugly.
26:39
Speaker 7: To me, that's the erosion of trust.
26:40
Speaker 8: Like families, they need to trust law enforcements completely, and
26:44
Speaker 8: that trust, once it's broken, it affects their willingness to
26:47
Speaker 8: cooperate on future cases and the faith in the system itself.
26:51
Speaker 8: It has a ripple effect, especially for like Savannah's high
26:54
Speaker 8: profile media figure and her family this potential failure. I mean,
26:58
Speaker 8: they're grieving privately and we're dissecting it in such a
27:01
Speaker 8: public way of what went.
27:03
Speaker 1: Wrong, Doctor Jamie, You're right, Dave Matck. That brings us
27:07
Speaker 1: to right now tonight. What has led authorities to search
27:13
Speaker 1: the desert, the Mexican desert.
27:16
Speaker 2: What there have been three very specific tips that have
27:21
Speaker 2: been called into a volunteer group called Buscondo Carrezones Nogalis,
27:26
Speaker 2: And these three tips have directed searchers as to where
27:31
Speaker 2: they need to look. And these specific searches Nancy are
27:35
Speaker 2: talking about finding the remains the unmarked grave of Nancy Guthrie.
27:41
Speaker 2: And these have been very specific. When I tell you specific,
27:44
Speaker 2: I mean like they have actually the searchers in searching
27:48
Speaker 2: for Nancy Guthrie, Nancy, they have found oney five unmarked
27:54
Speaker 2: graves and not Nancy Guthrie. Yet they continue to search
28:00
Speaker 2: this area of the desert and Sonora. And you see
28:03
Speaker 2: the volunteers the pictures, These are all volunteers that are
28:06
Speaker 2: showing up. They're using drones to search areas, and they're
28:09
Speaker 2: mostly on foot, shoulder to shoulder searching in areas that
28:12
Speaker 2: came in through these tips.
28:14
Speaker 1: It's very curious an anonymous tipster claiming Missus Guthrie is
28:19
Speaker 1: buried around the border in a grave. Straight out to you,
28:24
Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons. Your specialty is search and recovery, search and extraction.
28:30
Speaker 1: That's a pretty vague tip, but yet it's one of
28:34
Speaker 1: at least three tips we know about claiming the same thing.
28:41
Speaker 6: Yeah, and here's my immediate issue with this tip. There
28:44
Speaker 6: is a one point two million dollar reward on the
28:48
Speaker 6: table for information that leads to locating Nancy Guthrie. Now,
28:54
Speaker 6: this organization seems to be pretty active in that area,
28:58
Speaker 6: and they did uncover the remains of twenty five other
29:02
Speaker 6: individuals in a shallow grave. Right, So my immediate knee
29:07
Speaker 6: jerk reaction is that this was this tip was not
29:11
Speaker 6: connected to Missus Guthrie, That this was in order to
29:15
Speaker 6: get a large presence out there to discover that large
29:20
Speaker 6: grave site. That was you know that they had put
29:23
Speaker 6: that tip in before and that no action had been taken,
29:27
Speaker 6: that they rode the wave of Missus Guthrie's case to
29:30
Speaker 6: get that large grave site uncovered.
29:34
Speaker 1: This large stretch of land known as Mariposa is northwest
29:39
Speaker 1: of Nagallis. There are specific points provided by the tipster.
29:45
Speaker 1: Now that means something to me, Joe Scott Morgan if
29:48
Speaker 1: there are specific points, not just a broad swath of desert.
29:54
Speaker 5: To a certain degree, it does. It shows a familiarity
29:58
Speaker 5: with this area. But you know how the problem is this,
30:02
Speaker 5: this grouping of these bodies has been in their news,
30:07
Speaker 5: so yeah, I mean people would have specific knowledge of it.
30:11
Speaker 5: And this is a mass grave or a mass deposition
30:15
Speaker 5: of bodies. This is what we refer to as a
30:17
Speaker 5: clandestine burial. Here's one of my problems, kind of dovetailing
30:21
Speaker 5: what Brian had said just a moment ago, Nancy, if
30:26
Speaker 5: this is a mass deposition of bodies, I'm thinking, particularly
30:31
Speaker 5: in this area, that this is this this deposition is
30:35
Speaker 5: probably related to drug cartels. I find it interesting or
30:40
Speaker 5: compelling to think about Nancy Guthrie in the sense would
30:44
Speaker 5: a drug cartel actually stick their neck out for a
30:48
Speaker 5: few measly million bucks and risk getting their head chopped
30:54
Speaker 5: off over her. It just doesn't necessarily make sense. I
30:59
Speaker 5: agree with Brian and I think that they're trying to
31:01
Speaker 5: draw attention to this, and there's been other cases like
31:04
Speaker 5: this in Mexico. I think on body bags. We covered
31:07
Speaker 5: one earlier last year relative to the Hallisco bodies that
31:12
Speaker 5: were found, they had actually had a mass crematory cremation
31:16
Speaker 5: site down there, So this is nothing new under the
31:19
Speaker 5: sun relative to mass depositions of bodies. I'm going to
31:24
Speaker 5: be curious to see where this goes and if they
31:27
Speaker 5: follow up on this lead, and who was the source
31:29
Speaker 5: of it, you know.
31:31
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, I just don't think. I don't see kidnappers
31:35
Speaker 1: that are ruthless enough to take missus Guthrie to start
31:37
Speaker 1: with burying her body. I think her body would be
31:41
Speaker 1: completely destroyed, not just put in a shallow grave along
31:46
Speaker 1: with twenty five others. I don't see that.
31:49
Speaker 5: I don't know either.
31:49
Speaker 6: Oh.
31:49
Speaker 1: On the other hand, though, wait a minute, think about
31:52
Speaker 1: the porch guy. He's a bumbling idiot. Maybe they would think, Hey,
31:57
Speaker 1: we've already buried these other bodies here and we've never
31:59
Speaker 1: been caught. Let's go there. What do you think?
32:01
Speaker 5: Well, the problem again comes back to I think that
32:05
Speaker 5: the mass grave or the mass burials is related to
32:09
Speaker 5: drug cartels. If this guy goes out on his own
32:12
Speaker 5: and he is even loosely affiliated with one of these
32:15
Speaker 5: groups of people down there that have this criminal enterprise.
32:19
Speaker 5: His life isn't going to be worth anything relative to
32:21
Speaker 5: them because now he's drawn attention to them, and that's
32:24
Speaker 5: something that drug cartels don't want to do. Okay, particularly
32:28
Speaker 5: with somebody that's this high profile, Nancy.
32:31
Speaker 1: But I want to look at this realistically. We know
32:36
Speaker 1: to you, Dave Mac, that the Wiscondo Corrazanes is a
32:42
Speaker 1: volunteer group out of Mexico. They were the ones that
32:47
Speaker 1: did the searching. I heard nothing about cadaver dogs being
32:52
Speaker 1: called in state of the art equipment being used. So
32:57
Speaker 1: let me see that picture again. I don't believe I
33:00
Speaker 1: saw cat ever dogs. Know how thorough was the search,
33:04
Speaker 1: Dave Mac? What do we know about the collective?
33:07
Speaker 2: What we know is that this is a group of volunteers, Nancy,
33:11
Speaker 2: that searches in these areas in Sonora. I didn't see
33:16
Speaker 2: I looked for the dogs, okay, I was looking for
33:18
Speaker 2: that to see if there was anything. I never saw
33:21
Speaker 2: any dogs, and I was researching what they use for searching.
33:25
Speaker 2: And to be honest with you, Nancy, it's a group
33:28
Speaker 2: of people that volunteer their time to go into these
33:30
Speaker 2: areas and search. It sounds like they don't have any funding,
33:34
Speaker 2: They don't have any dogs, they don't have any volunteer
33:37
Speaker 2: groups offering up such as that.
33:39
Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons look at the photo of the collective. God
33:43
Speaker 1: bless them. At least they're doing something. All they have
33:47
Speaker 1: are T shirts and sticks. I know that they have
33:51
Speaker 1: now found twenty five plus bodies, so they get credit
33:55
Speaker 1: for that, But where are lawn for Where's lawnforcement in
34:00
Speaker 1: this scenario?
34:03
Speaker 6: Yeah, this looks like a well organized search group that
34:08
Speaker 6: has if you look them up, they have had quite
34:10
Speaker 6: a bit of success in the past locating missing individuals
34:14
Speaker 6: around Nogal. So this is a well established group that
34:17
Speaker 6: knows what they're doing to respond to these tips. And
34:20
Speaker 6: you know they certainly you can see in these photos
34:22
Speaker 6: they were certainly accompanied by local law enforcement to provide
34:27
Speaker 6: both security and if they did, when you know, when
34:31
Speaker 6: they didn't counter the grave of those twenty five individuals,
34:34
Speaker 6: I'm sure that scene was processed immediately.
34:37
Speaker 1: The reality is that the search yielded nothing. To this point,
34:43
Speaker 1: I'd like to see law enforcement doing something. NANOS has
34:46
Speaker 1: gone radio silent. So to you, Howard Bloom joining us, Howard,
34:55
Speaker 1: what do you make of.
34:56
Speaker 3: It at this point when it's so sad about this
34:59
Speaker 3: entire case is basically everything has been followed up on.
35:04
Speaker 3: It's too late to pay the ransom money when it
35:07
Speaker 3: should have been paid, and now we but the cases.
35:11
Speaker 3: This can only be instructive to law enforcement seminars on
35:16
Speaker 3: how to how a case falls apart how to take
35:20
Speaker 3: it how the first opening days of a case are
35:23
Speaker 3: so important and they must be followed up intelligently and
35:28
Speaker 3: with alacrity. And this here in this case, it was
35:32
Speaker 3: just a.
35:34
Speaker 2: Drag.
35:35
Speaker 3: There was just a reluctance to move with this, to
35:38
Speaker 3: move decisively, and unfortunately Nancy Guthrie and her family I
35:43
Speaker 3: believe will forever pay the price because of this indecisiveness
35:47
Speaker 3: of law enforcement.
35:51
Speaker 1: Dave Matt Crime Stories, investigative reporter. When you and I
35:55
Speaker 1: were researching and calling everybody we know to call and
35:58
Speaker 1: getting information for to I only did backflip when I
36:02
Speaker 1: saw a headline porch Guy, our moniker by the way,
36:06
Speaker 1: porch guy, identity of porch guy revealed something like that
36:11
Speaker 1: that's entirely not true. It's click bait. That's a lie.
36:16
Speaker 2: Yep, total lie. And Nancy, we've seen this happen a
36:20
Speaker 2: number of times since the Nancy Guthrie story began back
36:23
Speaker 2: in February. And seeing that over the weekend and watching
36:27
Speaker 2: it get pushed out there, it's really frustrating and it
36:29
Speaker 2: goes to the heart of what is problematic about some
36:34
Speaker 2: reporting individuals who just throw out anything to get people
36:39
Speaker 2: to click on their website or their social media. It's
36:43
Speaker 2: very frustrating. But one thing I want to add, Nancy,
36:46
Speaker 2: is the searches in Mexico with the volunteers. You know,
36:50
Speaker 2: they actually had a tip. One of the three tips
36:52
Speaker 2: that came in told the leader of the group that
36:56
Speaker 2: on June ninth, they were near and see Guthrie's grave.
37:02
Speaker 2: That's a very specific tip that came in, yielded nothing,
37:06
Speaker 2: but it was there.
37:07
Speaker 1: Wow. It makes you believe, although rarely that the tipster
37:13
Speaker 1: does know something. That combined with the apology of sorts
37:19
Speaker 1: and one of the missives stating that Missus Guthrie died accidentally,
37:23
Speaker 1: followed by Savannah Guthrie talking about celebrating essentially acknowledging that
37:29
Speaker 1: maybe her mom had passed away, it all seemingly fits together.
37:35
Speaker 1: I don't know where Nanos is in this entire scenario,
37:37
Speaker 1: basically nowhere. I guess he's back at the gym working out.
37:42
Speaker 1: So back to the banner, so to speak. That identity
37:48
Speaker 1: of porch Guy revealed to Howard Bloom joining us tonight,
37:53
Speaker 1: author of When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for
37:56
Speaker 1: the Idaho student Murders, and a brand new investigator series
38:00
Speaker 1: on Airmail inside the Search for Nancy Guthrie. What about
38:04
Speaker 1: the porch.
38:04
Speaker 3: Guy we've seen the one person who was involved at
38:08
Speaker 3: the door camera, Well, I can really hypothesize that he
38:13
Speaker 3: had to have someone else working with him, because he
38:16
Speaker 3: seemed like a bit of a bumbler.
38:17
Speaker 1: I agree with you that he was working with someone
38:20
Speaker 1: by if it's Gibbons, all of us on the panel
38:22
Speaker 1: tonight have reviewed the porch guy video over and over
38:25
Speaker 1: and over. Let's see it while it's Gibbons is talking.
38:28
Speaker 1: And I noticed that a veeher observed that the clicking
38:34
Speaker 1: of the bite light could very well have been communicating
38:41
Speaker 1: to the accomplice. And we also see at one juncture
38:44
Speaker 1: the porch guy kind of looks over his shoulder as
38:47
Speaker 1: if he's looking at someone also at Crime con and
38:52
Speaker 1: observer sleuth hypothesized, I think she may have been right
38:59
Speaker 1: that when he is looking in through the pain, he's
39:02
Speaker 1: looking to see if the accomplice, remember the back door
39:05
Speaker 1: was propped open, has come to the front. Yet. What
39:10
Speaker 1: do you make of that, Brian, it's Gibbons.
39:13
Speaker 7: Yeah.
39:13
Speaker 6: The true crime sleuth community experts on your panel and
39:19
Speaker 6: other shows have dissected everything possible about this and more
39:25
Speaker 6: from this video, his clothing, his body language, the equipment
39:29
Speaker 6: he's carrying. But I think one thing, you know, you
39:33
Speaker 6: know a number that a lot of those things are
39:35
Speaker 6: re for debate, but one thing is not, in my opinion,
39:39
Speaker 6: that this person did not act alone. Okay that you
39:42
Speaker 6: know whether there was a light in the distance that
39:44
Speaker 6: he was communicating with or not. I think we can
39:48
Speaker 6: be almost one hundred percent certain that this individual captured
39:52
Speaker 6: on the porch camera did not operate alone.
39:55
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything regarding missus
39:59
Speaker 1: Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free eight hundred two two
40:03
Speaker 1: five five three two four. There is a one point
40:06
Speaker 1: two plus million dollar reward for information leading to her whereabouts.
40:12
Speaker 1: If you wish to remain anonymous, five two zero eight
40:16
Speaker 1: eight two seven four sixty three, We remember an American hero,
40:22
Speaker 1: Sergeant Joseph Apodaca, Taos County Sheriffs, New Mexico, killed in
40:30
Speaker 1: the line of duty at the young age of thirty six,
40:33
Speaker 1: leaving behind his wife turned widow, Renee, and his beautiful
40:38
Speaker 1: daughters Esperanza, Natalia and Marabell. American hero Sergeant Joseph Apadacca.
40:47
Speaker 1: Thank you to our guest, but especially to you for
40:49
Speaker 1: being with us. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but
40:51
Speaker 1: I'll see you tomorrow night, and until then, good night friend.