Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #39-Charles Mwungura

Transcript

Episode #39-Charles Mwungura · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein.
0:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, good morning, Don.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited about the guests that we have on uh this morning.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: But before I introduce him, uh how's your morning going?
0:18
SPEAKER_02: It's going well.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, we had I had to cut my uh my walk short with my beautiful golden retriever.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: Um the rain was just coming down really hard, so we started late, and I need to be back here for this podcast.
0:39
SPEAKER_02: Um so I didn't get to see all the beautiful things that I normally see.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh and yesterday as as I was walking, um, I don't know if you've ever seen a Rosetta spoon bill.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: I have not.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Is that a bird?
0:55
SPEAKER_02: But it is a bird, uh pink in color.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's got this long bill with a that kind of sticks out like a spoon.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: Like a spoon.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: Nice.
1:09
SPEAKER_02: Beautiful, beautiful bird.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh seeing it fly and also on the ground.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: Uh, very, very rare.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, but um, but we saw them.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: That was yesterday.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: Today we didn't get to see anything.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, Don, I'm very rare.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm a rare species.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: You are rare.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: That's what people tell say about me anyway.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: I saw a red tail hawk on a uh telephone line yesterday just sitting there staring at me as I drove by and all its uh radiance.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: I thought, man, that's so magnificent and cool.
1:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, um You know speaking of just one one more thing.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: From my kitchen sink window, I can see an eagle's nest.
1:51
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you're kidding.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that until just the other day.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Have you seen the eagle in it?
1:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, oh I've seen the eagle.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you'll have to take a picture and send it to me.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I see that.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Man, that's incredible.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: That now talk about the word majestic.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: That is majestic.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: We have a few around here in Kentucky flying around Shelby County, and I uh always get a thrill every time I see him fly.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, without further ado, I don't want to take away from our guest.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, unfortunately, he was having some technical issues with being able to turn on his camera today.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: So, for those of you on YouTube, you get to see Don and my smiling faces, but uh unfortunately you don't get to see Charles Mingura.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: Charles Mingura is a good friend of mine.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we have known each other for two years.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, how it came about that we got to know each other at the time.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: I was uh uh a member at Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky, which is one of the top 10 largest churches in the nation.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: It's a megachurch.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: And I remember the pastor saying from uh the pulpit that um one of the pastors on staff at Southeast Christian uh over the multinational campus uh had lost his son in a drowning accident.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: I had also seen it on the news, all over the news that prior week.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: And um I basically reached out through some sources um and got Charles' telephone number.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: And the conversation, I was driving down the road in Indiana, I'll never forget the conversation.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: Um he answered, I told him who I was, and I said, brother, I'm here to throw you a life preserver.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: And from there, we have gotten together on numerous occasions.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: I've mentored him at Starbucks, and uh we've shared many a coffee together.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: And I've just come alongside him on this journey.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: And we talk a lot on this podcast, Don, about um peer groups and peer support.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think that uh Charles and I are kind of the epitome definition of that.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: So, Charles, welcome to this podcast.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Greg.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: We're excited to have you on.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, what we'd like to do on any podcast is kind of just start off with you telling us about your journey.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, you are originally from Congo slash uh by means of Rwanda in Africa over to the United States.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, your English is very good, um, and you do speak Swahili.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh basically everything changed for you July 24th of 24.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, why don't you tell our listeners kind of what happened?
4:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as uh you know, Greg, and nice to meet Don.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: It's my first time to meet him.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: You too, Charles.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was uh it was our deepest season of our lives as a family and as a parent, you know.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: No parent has been ever been prepared to bury a child or to go through that pain.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: That was a kind of surprise when my son roamed into Northern Lake.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: I was overwhelmed.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: There was a that deep silence and deep pain going on in our homes.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: And then uh even now we still have that season because there's still an empty seat of Isaac, empty room of Isaac.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: We still experience the same.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: So as we go through that, but also it's a reminder that in this world is not our home.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: We're still waiting one day to be with him again.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: So that was that's something that happened in July uh 24th, as you mentioned.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: So your son Isaac was on a back-to-school retreat at Nolan Lake here in Kentucky with Portland Christian School, and he drowned.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you you went down there, your other son went down as well.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, so that was traumatic uh for you as well, and some things you've had to work through uh with that.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: Tell our listeners kind of how uh those early days kind of what happened, because I know that you and I have talked about kind of the difference from an African culture of a funeral versus the American uh aspect.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, just kind of share with us what you've shared with me about how many people came in from all over the world, different things like that.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we had so many people from different parts of the world, and some from Canada, Australia, and Africa as well, and others also from just our neighborhoods here in Kentucky.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: And most of them are immigrants.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: So we had almost a thousand and four hundred people who showed up during the funeral.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: Wow, that speaks uh volumes about you and and your family and uh the the connections that you have and how important they are.
6:55
SPEAKER_02: How did that feel um to have all that support?
7:00
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: That's uh one of the best gifts that we had, the presence of people being with us.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: We just felt like they helped us in that weight of pain and sufferings that were part of it.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: So we felt like we are not alone.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Their presence meant a lot for us.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I remember you shared with me how there was people that came in from Europe, Australia, Africa, all over the place.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: And they didn't they couldn't necessarily afford the airfare, but they it wasn't a second thought for them.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh they came in, many of them stayed for seven days.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, and they just surrounded you and your family.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh, what was that like when that went away?
7:45
SPEAKER_00: What what feeling did you have?
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Was there an emptiness there?
7:48
SPEAKER_00: Did it continue on, that feeling of people reaching out to you?
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, as I mentioned before, there is always emptiness.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Whenever you go around the house, you see the absence of Isaac, the way he used to sit, his room, and and then most of his memories that we had together in the dining room and wherever we were together.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: So we had that emptiness.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: And as a parent, I think you understand it's something that you always carry.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: So uh I always tell people I've been waiting for how long, but I got to know after talking to so many friends with Greg as well.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: I think he will still be there and also we continue to still feel his absence, even though we have that hope that one day we'll be able to be with him again.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about that just a little bit.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, we we attempt to steer away a lot of times on this podcast from religion and politics, just because there's all different types of listeners listening.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, however, we we decided on this to kind of talk, since you are a pastor, um, to kind of talk about the aspect of at the very beginning, um, there was a lot of people even in leadership.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: And this isn't throwing anybody under the bus, but there's a lot of people even in leadership around you, uh, friends around you in the church that were like, well, he's gonna be okay because he's a pastor and he's he's strong and he'll be all right.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and when I first talked to you, I remember hearing a lot of the just the Christian lingo in both of us are Christians.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh so you know, the God is faithful, he is uh gonna never leave or forsake us, rah-rah, rah.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: Not that any of that is incorrect at all.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: But what Don and I have experienced in talking to a lot of people is when faith is a part of their life and their journey, a lot of times they could start off with that because that's what they're programmed to say and to hear and the positive thinking.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: But then whenever the dust settles and the cloud of oppression of grief comes over you, where do you go from there?
10:06
SPEAKER_00: So, did you kind of experience that?
10:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I went through the same.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the tensions that we always have, especially for those who come from religious or Christian, there is a way that's if we say God is faithful, I think does not be measured by the absence of pain.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: So the pain will be always there, even though God is faithful, and also um, we're not even change that um I will feel the same pain as someone else.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it's very hard to accept that the pain will always be there.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: We have to go through the same challenges and sufferings.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: I can honestly say that uh God is always faithful, but still carrying the deep pain.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: Faith does not deny suffering.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: That's what I can tell you.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: And though I think it's just because the suffering does not have the final word.
11:06
SPEAKER_02: So um I I hear you and I agree with you a hundred percent that um it it's almost two different things.
11:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, suffering is is part of being human, um, but we can still have faith.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: And um is that is that kind of what you're saying?
11:31
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: I think within our faith we have to accept we are human, we're going through different sufferings, and it's really hearting for all of us, it's the same.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Um even though we have that faith, but also still accept that we are human.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: We are going through the same pain and sufferings as well.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: I I'm mentoring a person in the Atlanta area, and uh I had seen a picture that him and his wife had posted on Facebook yesterday, and I screenshotted it and sent it to them.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: And I said, only a grieving parent can look into your eyes and see the pain and suffering behind your eyes.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: And I acknowledge that and I see that.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, all the others are posting on Facebook, like, oh, it's so great to see you guys.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's such beautiful sunset, and you're doing so well in this time type thing.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: But when you're talking about the pain and the suffering, it just settles in.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: And it could just, you know, sometimes be hidden, but really just kind of you could see it in your eyes.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: And and I remember about a year out um saying to myself after you and I had left Starbucks and had coffee that it settled in with Charles from the beginning.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: I it took a little while, as it does for all of us.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: We're kind of on that adrenaline rush, but then it's like it's settled in.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: This is here for life.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: How do I not only just uh survive, but how do I thrive again?
13:04
SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense to you?
13:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: Um you said only a grieving parent could see the the pain uh in your eyes or something to that effect.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: Um and I I would say that that's not entirely true.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: I think um I think you know, others spouses, um, you know, grieving spouses and and siblings and uh all of them.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: I I don't know that we have to be a grieving parent to be able to understand and and see the pain in even uh a parent's eyes.
14:00
SPEAKER_02: Um my daughter sent me something uh that she saw on Facebook the other day, and um it was uh uh from a parent's perspective about losing a child.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: And she hasn't lost a child, but she she knew that um this would speak to me.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: Um so I just maybe uh you can clarify for our listeners.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: No, it's that's a good pushback.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: Um I think that uh what is so this was a loss of a child for them, um, and I also have lost a child.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: So I think for me, what I'm what I'm uh emphasizing is empathy versus sympathy.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: So until you've really gone through that, it's hard to really see deep into somebody's soul in in their eyes, uh, from my experience.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: And you might have had a different experience with that, you might totally disagree.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: I just find that um it really takes somebody that can empathize to see through that, um, especially if you go onto social media, because I see a lot of people that haven't experienced grief that put a lot of good meaning comments out there, and it's like, but they don't see it, they don't understand.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: So I that's that's what I was kind of drilling down on with that.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
15:18
unknown: All right.
15:19
unknown: Thanks.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Charles, so we want to kind of talk about how um, one, this is not a pat on my shoulder, you know, for coming alongside you.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I do want to kind of emphasize that relationship.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about that.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: What has that been like for you?
15:37
SPEAKER_00: Whenever I said, hey, Charles, I am here to throw you a life preserver.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: And I know that that is ironic and verbiage um and not meant to be triggering, um, especially since your son drowned.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's the only way I could kind of really look at it overall for loss, is a lot of times we feel like we're drowning out there even in grief.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: What has my relationship been to you in the pure support?
16:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think from the beginning I thought it's going to be like others.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: It was not easy for me just to uh open up and tell you the truth of how I'm feeling.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: But all I love about you being with you the first time we met at coffee and as we talk, you didn't simply offer comforting words.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: I love the way you chose to walk with me uh through that grief, which is great for me appreciating regardless of what kind of words, but I love someone who is really deciding to walk with you in that journey.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: And that journey was a time of taking your time and listening when I needed someone to hear my heart and my pain.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: I took time and share some of what comforting words as well when I was ready to hear from you.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: So you were ready to listen to my struggles and the different pain that I was going through.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: And then also you gave me a space to express my pain as a man and be open and tell you how I'm feeling.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: That was a great space.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's I need I needed that time where I can speak out and tell someone that's this is how I'm feeling.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I really appreciate and I'm so grateful for you and how you decided to walk with me, not just throw the words of comforting and uh sending messages or send flowers, but you decided to be present.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: So your presence, your presence was everything that I needed.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: The more than even also having someone who has the same experience with me, it was easy for you to understand me because we both have the same problem of understanding with the pain of losing a uh a child, a son, how it is was good.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: And also, you are able to understand me more, even when I express, you are able even to see how I'm feeling, and even when I'm trying to hide, you are able to say, Charles, I can't see.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: You are not able to say this, but I know that was great for me to be able to be vulnerable and share my pen.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm so thankful, Greg.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: I feel the same way.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: Charles, I um thank you for for sharing that.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: And I I wonder, you know, in our culture, uh for men to even know what they're feeling can be a challenge um because of the way we were raised, that you know, oftentimes you know we were told uh you know we don't uh we don't get sad, we don't, you know, no crying.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh uh that's yeah, that's for sissies and um and you know buck up, be a man, that kind of thing.
18:58
SPEAKER_02: Um and I'm wondering if you had a similar upraising and um and if like you know if so, uh how how did you uh uh become and I guess as a pastor maybe that that was helpful to uh to help you get in touch with your feelings, but uh can you talk about that?
19:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you so much, Dan.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: Um I think as a man we we are all the same.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: We grew up in a place where being vulnerable as a man is a sign of weakness, right?
19:39
SPEAKER_01: Being able to share your pain, you are kind of telling people I'm weak.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: So to be a man was able to hide all those pain and suffering and declarate for yourself.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: So we have a proverb in our mother tongue that they say the tears of men go down in your heart, not outside.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: If you cry, don't let your tears come out.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: So uh those are things that's how I grew up.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: I grew up by telling you a man, you can't even cry, you can't do this.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: Even when a man is crying, you you you you don't have to show tears coming down.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: So no one will say that.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: So if you cry, you have to hide yourself or cry.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: But they always tell that you men that you don't you can't even cry.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in the same culture.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, so it was not easy, but also I really loved one of the things that we have as a difference when you are in a community of people that you really trust, that you believe, or the peers, you can tell them the truth.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: But we are more selective, and it depends on also the bond of friendship.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: If we are really connected, I can be vulnerable to you.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: But if we I don't know you well, I have to hide and be a man and be strong.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: What makes feelings anyway?
21:01
SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what allowed you to trust me?
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh because I want I want our listeners to hear this.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: If they want to reach out to somebody who's grieving, um, if they want to come alongside someone, what you didn't know me from Adam.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, I had called you on the phone, we met in person at a coffee shop once, and then we decided to get together.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: But what made you decide to trust me?
21:26
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things was about your presence first.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: And uh you you became vulnerable before me.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: You shared your life before I share mine.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: So, because of your vulnerability and accepting and telling me what you went through, it really helps me to trust you because you just laid down your life for me to be able to hear from your experience.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: And then uh that was at the beginning.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: It also a strong bond bond of relationship.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: I think it took time.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: For us to be able to share more, you know.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: The first time we didn't go deeper, we was just talking, then we went to the second, but the third time we were able to share everything.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: So really, it's it's showing up.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, you talked about giving space.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm thinking, you know, today is August 6th.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: We just went live, published with Andy McNeil's uh podcast, and he was talking all over there about uh giving space.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: We give space to people, creating creating space creating space.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: Yes, creating space.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: So we create that space, and then, but even creating that space, unless you have that vulnerability on the other end where somebody is willing to let down their guard, you're more inclined not to feel comfortable to share your most intimate, hurtful secrets with somebody else.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: So I like to call it priming the pump, where you have to kind of prime that pump first uh in order for that water to come out by sharing some of your life experiences.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it's a very uh fine line because you don't want to make it all about yourself.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: You want to be there for the other person.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: Don, what uh questions do you have?
23:16
SPEAKER_02: I um well, you know, being a pastor, um it's gotta be hard to uh to do the work that you do while you're um in the midst of grief.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: Uh is is there anything you can um can speak to as far as that is concerned?
23:42
SPEAKER_02: Like what what did what have you had to do uh for yourself in order to to uh take care of the people that you um are a pastor to?
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh yeah, thank you so much, Don, for asking.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that I'm so thankful is a community of believers who were just around me for almost two months.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: And uh and those two months and also Southeast Christian Church has been more helpful.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: They gave me almost two months without even preaching or serving.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: I was just there attending and sitting because I couldn't even sit down and write sermons and write things because it was hard for me to focus.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: So they knew, and our leadership was so gracious for me, and they gave me two months without doing anything and just sitting and being served.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, even though we have those those differences, uh maybe we'll be able to talk.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: But I love some of them they gave offers of professional counselor for you to go and meet them and talk and hear from them.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: But I'm so thankful for the community around me, especially the African community who just came and being with me.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: That was more helpful, and also the process of healing.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't not complete healing, but also gave me a time at least to be able to focus on other duties.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was thinking about that.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: As a pastor, you're a caregiver nonstop.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, whether it's a graduation party, you know, for somebody's you know, child, whether it's somebody is sick, whether it's a death uh in the family, um, whether it's a wedding that you have to perform, uh, whatever it might be, you have all of these parishioners under your purview.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: And on top of that, you have your wife and four children.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: So going from a caregiver all the time to feeling like, man, I don't know what I can give, and I'm empty, uh, that had to have been a little bit of a transition uh for you in uh trying to figure that out.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: That was hard.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: I think that's one of the things that I I noticed.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you have to be humble enough to accept that whatever position you have, you're human.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Still we're going through the same challenges with others.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: And then uh it was a really good time for me to be humble enough and learn and know that whatever I do every day, I need also others to help me.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: So knowing that even though I care for others, but it's my time also to be cared.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: So life itself can humble you, humbles you in a way you feel like I need help now.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: So I was in a position where I can't be continue to just endure and try to cover and do something, but I needed help.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: But as I can tell everyone, even though you care for others, there is a time also you need to be cared.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: If you when you are serving, there's a time to sit and also be served.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: In a different season of life that we are in.
27:00
SPEAKER_02: You know, that's kind of um interesting because I I believe uh for people, when you're a leader, you also have to be a role model, right?
27:11
SPEAKER_02: And if you need support and help um to to show that, hey, uh I can, you know, I I need it too.
27:20
SPEAKER_02: It's not just um my parishioners, but uh, but you know, I need it too.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: So uh you're being a role model because um because you're showing them that you're accepting the support and the help.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: And it and Charles, every time you and I get together, I always emphasize uh a hyphenated word, self-care.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: I always talk about what are you doing for self-care?
27:46
SPEAKER_00: And this isn't, folks, this isn't just for grieving uh people out there.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: This is in life.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you have to exercise self-care, you have to have space.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, as Don shared this morning, he wasn't able to walk around as much as he wanted because of the rain.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: That's that's Don's thing he does every morning is he gets his walk in with his golden retriever.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: And I usually go down to the cemetery and I walk three miles every afternoon.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I like to just sit down and read a book by myself.
28:14
SPEAKER_00: So, whatever it might be, whether it's mountain biking, whether self-care is going out shopping with other people or doing whatever, it doesn't have to be just solo, uh, but you do need to exercise self-care.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: It's that whole putting the oxygen mask on yourself uh first on the plane before the child uh mentality.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: And and whatever fills your cup up.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: And because you're gonna be pouring into others.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: Um so uh whatever that is, whatever that looks like for uh anyone.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: That's wonderful.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very easy and empty yourself out.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh Charles, I just kind of want to merge into a different um path here.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: So um you have a newborn baby, Jonathan, uh four months old, uh, was born April 8th, uh, just uh four months ago.
29:05
SPEAKER_00: And you also have a son who is getting married uh this September.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: Um so in the midst of you just hit your two-year mark of losing Isaac this past July 24th, um, in the midst of your grief journey with both you and Esperanza, your wife, and your four children, you have a new birth over the last four months, and then coming up next month, you have a son who's getting married.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: So both very joyous occasions.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: How were you able to balance your grief in the midst of joy and happiness?
29:43
SPEAKER_00: And did you ever feel like they conflicted?
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, am I allowed to be happy and joyful uh in the midst of all this?
29:49
SPEAKER_00: Talk to us a little bit about that.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think in life we always have those tensions as we are celebrating some of the achievement.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: There is some pain around or something going wrong in different areas of life.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: So I think we've never been whole or I don't know how we can hypo this.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you are enjoying this area, but other areas you are suffering, you have something that you you lack.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: There is what we call this is it's a word called shalom.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh the shalom it's it's a kind of Hebrew word, but it's where they mention there is nothing missing, nothing is broken.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: I think that's kind of ideal, but we never have that.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: We always have something missing and something broken.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: So as I was celebrating my baby boy and and my son's wedding, that was amazing, but also still have something missing as well.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: And we all have those moments where we are really rejoicing, but also there's something missing.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's what I can tell you.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: We I was so happy, so excited, there's no conflict, but also there's something missing.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: You can have both, right?
31:10
SPEAKER_01: You can have both.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so you can find joy in the midst of uh the suffering.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and uh yeah.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: Uh thank you for sharing that.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: One of the things Don and I have talked a lot about is we've had uh some guests, uh a lot of guests on.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: You're our 39th episode, um, who have been you know numerous years out.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: Um we had a gentleman recently that was two years out, and you're two years out.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: Um you don't know what you don't know still.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what I don't know still.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm five years out.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: Don is you know further down the road than us.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: Don, share with us how many years it's been.
31:56
SPEAKER_02: Over 15.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: 15.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: So the whole aspect of um do you know what's next?
32:03
SPEAKER_00: Is it's a blind corner.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we don't we don't know what the path holds in front of us, whether it's just life or a grief journey.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, but the comment I would make is last time we had coffee this past month, I just really saw in you the epitome of turning grief into growth over two years.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh, probably more so than I have a lot of the men that I've worked with over the past five years.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: And the fact that I could just I could see this starting point that was just the deer in the headlights.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to do, panic, but yet really not wanting to share in your position you were in, not knowing if you had to have it all together uh as a pastor, to hey, I don't have it all together, I don't have life figured out, but I'm moving forward with life and I'm being productive in conversation and talking about and working through and putting the work in on my grief journey.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: And there is no question here, it's just a comment that I could just really see, because we always want to try to turn it back into turning grief into growth aspect.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: I could really see the growth, uh, Charles, and you.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: So I just want to affirm you with that.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Don, do you have any other questions you would like to ask Charles?
33:25
SPEAKER_02: Uh I do have one.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: Um Charles, we'd like to leave our listeners with um some nugget that they can take with them to help them through their grief journey.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just wondering if if you have any any words of wisdom that you'd like to share with our listeners too, um so they can take that and and uh hopefully find some comfort and and that you know they can uh uh find their way.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't think if it's a good job, a special one, but what I can as my personal experience with Greg accept to walk with others.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Don't grieve alone.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: I think what I know that's you can't just carry the heaviness, the weight of the pain of the when you lose a loved one when you lose a loved one alone.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Accept someone, accept the community for us as Africans.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: We really accept the community, the entire community to enter into the person's pain.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: So they come into your pain and help help you.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: So uh don't accept to be alone and join the group, work with others who are going the same journey, uh, and then uh accept to be vulnerable enough to share how you're feeling.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: And that was my personal experience really helped me as I was walking with the Greek.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: I wrote that I wrote that down.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: Invite them access into the pain.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh, that's that's deep.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that's giving them permission.
35:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, Charles, we can't thank you enough, brother, for coming on this podcast today, for sharing uh your journey.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: And it's uh it's just the beginning.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm gonna be here alongside you.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna continue to do life uh together.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: My hope is that our listeners know that they do not have to be alone uh and that uh they can seek out others that uh can walk alongside them as well.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: So, Charles, thank you so much.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: And uh, Don, it's always a pleasure.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: Until next time.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: Until next time.