Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Bird Nesting After Divorce

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Bird Nesting After Divorce · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate the Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Sally Anna Hamlin, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: In thoughtful, deeply supportive DMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans, moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Life and love, completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the Worm Tree people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And in today's episode, I'm going to talk about a concept called bird nesting, which is where a couple or a family after divorce, the children stay in one place in one home, usually the family home that they already know, and the parents move in and out on an alternating roster basis as primary carers.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit like birds coming in and out of the nest where the baby birds stay in the nest and the parents move in and out, which of course is why it's called bird nesting.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now it may seem like a really privileged option, but it can actually be financially more viable to do it this way, to maintain one large home and have one smaller home.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um can be more financially viable to do it this way than rather than having two big homes that can accommodate the entire family, you know, you and three kids in this home and your ex-partner and the three kids in that home.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: So each parent does have a second living space or home where they spend time when they're not in primary care role in the nest.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Some rent a small apartment, some live in a share house, some share space with friends or family.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and some couples actually rent an apartment that is able to accommodate both of them on an alternating basis.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: So they keep the family home, kids stay in the family home.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: As a family, they rent a second space where the parent who's not operating in the primary care role goes to stay and then they swap.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it can be a really child-centered approach to reorganizing family after divorce.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not only families with young children that do it, sometimes it's families with teenagers, particularly if they're going through you know final years of high school, it is actually becoming more common for families to do to do this while their kids are in transition.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's, and in my experience, it's an arrangement that does work best in a short to medium term.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So in that transitional period while everyone's adjusting, property settlement is organized, everybody knows what financial situation is the financial situation is going to be for them moving forward as they move out of divorce, they've navigated that property settlement, can sort longer-term housing options, whether it's renting or buying, and parenting arrangements have already been made.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's more a transitional solution rather than a long-term or permanent plan.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was definitely more common during COVID and lockdowns, and I think it's also becoming more common at the moment with the financial pressures that families are facing and the rental crisis, the rental, the scarcity or the difficulty of securing rental properties.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um families are choosing to keep the kids in the family home, and one parent's one parent moves out, goes and stays with friends or family for short periods of time, and they alternate like that.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: There are positives of bird nesting.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now, kids are definitely less impacted if they can stay in the family home.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's well known, um, I think it's fairly well researched, that kids can find it really destabilizing to have to leave their family home while they're still, while while at the same time they're working through their own emotional, the emotional impacts of their parents separating, divorcing.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if the kids can stay in their family home, some things don't change.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: They stay where they know, they stay close to school and friends and family and all the things.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: They also don't have to lug their stuff.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it doesn't matter how old kids are, whether they're eight or eighteen, they hate lugging stuff back and forth between two homes.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's always stuff that gets forgotten, whether it's the security toy of a younger child, homework or soccer boots or whatever it is.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: They hate lugging stuff, things get forgotten, and a bird nest arrangement minimizes all of that.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have to move, they don't have to physically move, so they don't have to deal with the physical shifting of their stuff, and they don't have to emotionally move.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: They can stay where they've felt safe, they felt nurtured, they've felt cared for, they can stay where they know.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: The other benefit, as already touched on, can be financial.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So maintaining two homes large enough for children close to their schools and other activities, duplicating furniture, stuff, toiletries, books, toys, TVs, tech, it's expensive.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and especially expensive when each home remains empty of kids for a portion of time, whether you're week on, week off, or whatever.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's an expensive operation to set up a new home that can accommodate you and your kids.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So a smaller, modestly furnished second home or share house or whatever can, in some circumstances, some situations be a cheaper option.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, a bird nesting arrangement will work for some but not all separating families.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Negotiating stuff as separating or separated or divorced co-parents can be tricky.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're getting divorced for really good reasons, right?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes communication breakdown is one of those reasons.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, almost always communication challenges are part of a relationship breaking down.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: So negotiating as co-parents can be tricky even when you're not living in the same space.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the cost of maintaining two or three even three residences will be prohibitive for many families.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you might not be able to financially afford to keep the family home and then have other spaces.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite a privileged position to be in, to be able to do that.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is possible for some though.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And doing all of this, reorganization of family while still living in the family home and dealing with the demise of your relationship as a couple will actually just be too much for many.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Both of you need to be really committed to raising your kids cooperatively and jointly for it to be viable and successful as an option.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be able to put the best interests and the needs of your children as well as your responsibilities as parents and co-parents above your own self-interest, above what's going on for you personally, above the pain and challenge and trauma of your relationship breaking down.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: It also requires cooperation, clear, calm, open communication, all of which can be challenging because you're getting divorced from the person you're trying to co-parent with.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: It also, in my experience, works best when care is fairly evenly shared between the parents rather than one being the primary caregiver and the other being a visiting parent who's only present in the nest for short periods of time because it becomes the primary caregiver's home, and that other person is really just a visitor.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're considering a bird nest arrangement after separation or divorce, I want to step you through some things to consider and to help you make it a smooth solution for your family or a smooth transition.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, number one, remember that it's the kids' house.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's really important to view the nest as the kids' house.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's no longer the family house, it's no longer your house if it ever was.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: You might choose to set up a bird nesting arrangement in a whole in a whole new home, but that's not common in my experience.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not your house, it's not our house, it's the kids' house.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So this helps with this actually helps with mindset.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can shift your mindset to it being the children's house, the kids' house, when the floors need mopping, or the toilet needs cleaning or the lawn needs mowing, neither of you is going to feel resentful that your co-parent hasn't done it.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: You just do it because it needs to be done in your kids' house.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: It also means that what happens in the house is what is best for the children.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're viewing it as the kids' house, the children's house, then whatever is best for them will happen in that house.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than, oh, it's my house, I can do what I want.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's got to go.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to view it as the kid's house.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing you need to be really, really clear on is the money stuff, the financial arrangement around this bird nesting situation.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Be really clear and have a detailed, even written plan of how the costs will be shared in the kid's house.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Who is responsible for what, including utilities, groceries, garden maintenance, house maintenance and repairs?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Who actually pays the bills?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Who's going to do the paying of the bills?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what if the oven or the hot water service needs replacing?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Who pays for that?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is everything 50-50, or is the percentage weighted differently due to your unique family circumstances, due to differing incomes between the two of you?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe open a joint account with equal visibility specifically for running the kid's household, and each parent deposits a set amount per week or per month, and all agreed expenses are paid out of that account using the joint funds.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, that doesn't have to be a 50-50 split, it could be like a pro rata depending on income, and that needs to be decided and clearly outlined between the two of you, preferably in writing, so it can't be refuted.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's there as evidence later, if need be.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Also, if you do open that joint account, it needs to be really clear what is and is not to be paid from the account, as well as how much each of you contributes and when those contributions are due.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: This also, I suggest, needs to be reviewed regularly, be it monthly, quarterly, whatever works for you.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: The next thing that you need to be really clear on is privacy and boundaries in the nest.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you can do this, it is best if you each have a private space within the kid's house.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Your private space should remain exactly that private, as should your co-parent space.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Don't overstep that boundary.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you've each got a bedroom, awesome.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Don't overstep the boundary and in not invade, don't go into that space without permission.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: That is their private space, you respect that space, and you expect the same respect for your private space in return.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: No dates in the nest is a rule that I think works really, really well in keeping everyone safe emotionally as well as maintaining everyone, including the children's, right to privacy.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you're bird nesting, you're moving in and out.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you can date and do whatever you want with your time when you are not in the nest, when you're not in the kids' house.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Keep your dates outside of the nest.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Also, who does what?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: The grunt work.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: It is really important to have a very clear outline of household duties: shopping, washing, cleaning, garden maintenance, house maintenance, with both of you contributing as equal partners.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever your arrangement was while you were living together, while you were married, it's really different as bird nesters and co-parents, and this needs to be clearly outlined.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes 50-50.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Agree on a roster and however that's going to look for you.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Agree on who is responsible for what and who does what.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Each parent cleans the house at the end of their time or has the house cleaned, whatever.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: But you leave the house clean and tidy for changeover.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And agree on what clean and tidy actually means and where you're prepared to compromise on that.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because if one of you is a clean freak and one of you is not, there is a point, there is a potential point of conflict there and upset in the nest.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So be really clear on what that means for you.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's also important to have an agreed basic shopping list so that no one arrives on changeover to that nasty surprise of an empty fridge, no milk, no bread, no toilet paper.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So remember to frame these tasks as for the kids rather than for your co-parent.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's the kids' house, so make sure that that pantry is stocked and the house is clean for the kids.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Recognition of your co-parent, respect for your co-parent, and equality is really important in a bird nesting arrangement.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Recognize and value each other as equal in the lives of your kids.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be really hard while you're navigating a separation, negotiating divorce and settlement.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: It can be really hard.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really important to recognize and value each other as parents and in the lives of your kids and equal, equally important in their lives.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: They need both of you.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you both have equal rights, deserve equal respect, and share equal responsibility in a bird nesting arrangement.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you're choosing this path, it needs to be chosen jointly because you both want it.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: You both love and are deeply committed to raising your kids as best you can, and you think this is the best way for now.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Don't talk badly of the other parent in the bird nest ever, if you can help it anywhere near the kids, anywhere near they where they might hear.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Also don't take each other for granted.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy to do that in a long-term partnership, in a marriage, but in this arrangement it's different.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Don't take each other for granted.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: You actually need each other because your kids need both of you.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So these are some of the positives, but also the complexities of the lived reality that is bird nesting.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: When you are parenting kids, consistent rules and expectations and routines are really important.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And in a bird nesting arrangement, that need for consistency ramps right up.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: No one in a bird nesting arrangement gets to be the fun parent, leaving the other one to do all the hard, messy, dirty, everyday stuff.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can develop and write down and then stick to your co-parenting agreement, review it over time, keep the rules and expectations that you have as parents for your kids, keep that consistent while still honoring each other's different parenting styles.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Keep the basics consistent.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: With little kids, they thrive on routine and consistency.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can both be on the same page with that, it's really helpful and supportive of the kids to be emotionally cared for, feel safe, all the things.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: It also just makes the house run smoother.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: But as best you can, keep the structure and the routine the same, regardless of which parent is in the nest, while still honouring everybody's right to do things a little bit differently, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is one of the major benefits I see of a bird nesting arrangement for kids.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's stable, their routines don't change.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing that changes is the parent who is present.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: It keeps things consistent, they know what's coming, they don't have to second guess, and so while they're navigating their own emotional upset about your divorce, everything else kind of remains the same around them.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: The next thing I want to address that's really important in a bird nesting arrangement is communication.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Clear, calm communication is crucial.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're in a situation with your ex-partner, with your co-parent where you can't communicate clearly and calmly, this might not be the best arrangement for you.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to need to talk to one another or communicate with one another, whether that's face-to-face, verbal, text, whatever works, but it needs to be an open line of communication.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to need regular check-ins, especially in the early phases when you're setting this stuff up, developing the routines and the rhythms that work for you.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're also going to need communication between kids and co-parents.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you can formalize these if you think it's necessary.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a set day or each month or whatever to catch up, discuss anything that's come up or that needs tweaking.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Have a communication board, you know, you can go old school, have a communication board in the kitchen.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or you can use a co-parenting app, you can have a group chat, whatever it is that works for you and your family, keep the communication open and clear and calm.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And wherever wherever possible, make your decisions together as a family, especially if things need changing or amending or tweaking.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Make those decisions as a family.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, you can include young children in these decisions.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: They will tell you what's not working for them, whether it's by acting up tantrums, behavioral changes, or verbally, they can tell you that things are not working for them.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Keep the nest as clear of conflict as you can.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if there are things that you need to communicate with your ex-partner about separation, divorce, other stuff, do it outside of the nest.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Keep that space the kids' space.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if the communication is not directly related to the kids and the household, take it outside of the nest.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: When conflict does inevitably arise, because it will, you're all living in this same space in a bubble, it's going to be difficult.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: When it inevitably arises, try and stick to the issue.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Don't shame or blame or finger point.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Stick to the issue, whatever that is, and try and find an amicable solution that works well for all of you.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Remembering that it's the kids' house.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the solution needs to be focused on what is best for the kids.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Not best for you, not best for your ex.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: With regard to handover, be clear on exactly when it is the day, the date, and the time.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: It could be Friday at five o'clock, but it could also be midday on Wednesday.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um Sometimes I think it works better when it is in the middle of the day rather than at the end when everybody is tired and grumpy, or at the beginning when everyone's rushing to get to school and to work.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: So be really clear on when that time of handover is because one parent's responsible right up until that time, and then bang, the other person is responsible.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that means they're responsible for pickups and drop-offs of kids at school and activities, and it also means that they're responsible if something goes awry, a child is unwell, or something happens at school and they need to be picked up early.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you're and this doesn't actually even matter if you're in a bird nesting arrangement or not, regardless of what your arrangement is, be really clear on what time handover is and who is responsible for what each side of that handover.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Being clear on handover time also helps minimise anxiety in the kids.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: They know exactly who's who to call on or who's going to be in the house because they know when handover time is.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: A bird nesting arrangement, and I've kind of touched on this already, but a bird nesting arrangement also really requires teamwork.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So once you've set that nest timetable, once you've worked out handover time, once you've sorted out routines and rhythms, try and stick to it, but do support each other by sharing the challenges of parenting and co-parenting whenever they come up, because they will.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do be flexible when you can.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, ensure that this is both appreciated and a two-way thing.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you're always the one being flexible or you're always the one asking for changes and accommodations, it's not fair.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not teamwork.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: So help each other, you're a team, and it is a great way to teach your kids about collaboration and cooperation, but make sure it's a balanced team.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: A bird nesting arrangement is also going to require tolerance and patience.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know each other really well.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: You've lived together, you've loved together, you parent together, have parented, and will continue to parent together.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you also know what each other's triggers are.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it requires a little bit of work, it requires a little bit of acknowledgement, acknowledging your own triggers, um, dialing down your activation, deciding what you can tolerate in each other for the sake of peace and harmony in your kid's house.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So nesting, I think, requires infinitely more patience, compliment, compromise, tolerance of each other, of the differences that each parent brings to the to the nest and of their living style.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: So those very things that pissed you off that you argued about while you were together will remain the things that you will be frustrated, frustrated by as bird nesters.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So choose tolerance, choose patience, work out what is the non-negotiable thing and where you are willing to flex with each other.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: So bird nesting can be a really great transitional situation for kids, but it's definitely not without its challenges.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that sometimes remaining in what was the family home can actually trigger emotions from past events, and that can be both happy, um happy emotions, happy memories, and not so happy while everybody is still learning how to navigate this new version of family.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: For parents and for kids, it can be really hard to accept that things have changed and to move on while still actually in that same space, still tied to the family home and tied to one another.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not without its negatives and its challenges.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think it can, in certain circumstances, give everyone time to adjust.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So my best advice is if you're thinking about this, have the really hard conversations and step out exactly how it's going to look for your family, being flexible, listening, open communicate openly communicating what you think might be the biggest challenges and the barriers.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: But give it a try.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because if it gets too hard, you can always change it.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if it gets too hard, you can think of next steps, plan them out, and move forward slowly.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a lot of energy to navigate separation and then reorganise your family afterwards.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: It takes energy and effort for parents to balance this new co-parenting relationship or a new relationship as co-parents.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think ultimately the decision whether to nest or not is going to depend on you and your family's ability to maintain, to create and maintain a balance, to keep the lines of communication open, to navigate and negotiate so that everybody gets what they need, but with the kids' best interests being held at the forefront of all your decisions.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: If this is something that you want to explore further, more than happy to run a one-on-one coaching deep dive call with you.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if it's something you're open to exploring or you're thinking about as a family and you want some more intimate support from me, let's jump on an intro call.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, we can run a one-on-one, a one-off deep dive session on how best to bird nest in your unique circumstances.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you've got something from this episode and that there are some things here that I've shared that can support you to make your decision and then to, if it's to bird nest, to make it a smooth transition for your family.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at ReflectCoaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next month for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Until then.