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The Generation That Uncouples Does Or Doesn't Stay Together Daniel Cox Breaks It Down · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: It really is a personal goal to give you exactly
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  Speaker 1: you're going, oh my God, I'm listening to elevator music
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  Speaker 1: A-R-R-O-E dot net. Enjoy your exploration. Good morning. How are
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  Speaker 1: you doing today, Daniel?
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  Speaker 3: Good. Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 1: Dude, I'm so proud of you for writing this book
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  Speaker 1: because you're creating conversation of conversations that we're having, but
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  Speaker 1: we keep it to ourselves. In fact, while I was
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  Speaker 1: reading your book and really studying the book, I just
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  Speaker 1: envisioned people eating sushi and going, by the way, did
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  Speaker 1: you know that Daniel Cox said this? I did know
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  Speaker 1: that because I picked up the same book. You see
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  Speaker 1: what I mean? I mean, it creates conversation, dude.
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  Speaker 3: That's amazing, because honestly, that was the goal, right?
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  Speaker 4: That we can have a different kind of discussion about
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  Speaker 4: some of these topics that can be difficult to talk about.
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  Speaker 1: Don't you think it's about time that we start doing
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  Speaker 1: this without having our parents say, get in there and
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  Speaker 1: work this thing out?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think the whole point was that I wanted.
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  Speaker 4: To sort of pull back the curtain and sort of say, hey,
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  Speaker 4: the reason that men and women are making these decisions
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  Speaker 4: is not because they're mean or selfish or rude. But
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  Speaker 4: there's there's sort of structural and cultural explanations to this
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  Speaker 4: that we need to understand. And I think that that
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  Speaker 4: opens the door to empathy and curiosity a little more.
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  Speaker 1: Well, your curiosity starts with this right here. America's new
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  Speaker 1: gender divide. You said it. We're bringing it up. We're
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  Speaker 1: looking into the book and we're going, holy crap, I've
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  Speaker 1: been living like this for how long? He knows about me.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I really wanted
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  Speaker 4: to write this book is I want to understand how
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  Speaker 4: we got here.
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  Speaker 3: We've all kind.
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  Speaker 4: Of seen it, you know, schools canceling homecoming dances because
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  Speaker 4: of lack of interest, rising family estrangement, more people wanting
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  Speaker 4: prenuptial agreements, and surveys showing that young people are casting
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  Speaker 4: a wearier eye on marriage and parenthood.
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  Speaker 1: It's kind of a crazy place to be because I'm
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  Speaker 1: a wedding DJ and I, and I officiated many weddings
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  Speaker 1: and I'm not going to lie to you. I go
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  Speaker 1: into these things going, please, please, please go beyond 10 years.
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  Speaker 1: Give me at least 10 years out of this celebration
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  Speaker 1: because I see it in your eyes, but I need
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  Speaker 1: to know in your actions that you, that you really
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  Speaker 1: do believe in this relationship.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And, and one of the things that is sort of
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  Speaker 4: profoundly sad about where we are is that social media
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  Speaker 4: and I think online dating too has, has, kind of
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  Speaker 4: altered our perspectives about what relationships should be. That more
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  Speaker 4: often than not now, it feels like it's transactional. It's
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  Speaker 4: meant to serve individual goals and needs. And so once
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  Speaker 4: that relationship is not serving me, I can end it.
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  Speaker 4: Rather than relationships should be formative.
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  Speaker 3: They should change us.
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  Speaker 4: They should push us to become better. I talk about
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  Speaker 4: the fact that when I got married and I had kids,
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  Speaker 4: I became much more patient and generous than I was.
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  Speaker 3: When I was single.
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  Speaker 4: And that is the great thing about personal relationships is
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  Speaker 4: that they can push us to be better.
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  Speaker 1: You know what my mom would say about that? Son,
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  Speaker 1: you've now become selfless. You're no longer selfish. You're selfless.
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  Speaker 1: Put those babies first. I want to see my grandbabies.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 4: And that's part of growing up. It takes, I think,
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  Speaker 4: relational motivation. And we are increasingly telling young people that, no,
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  Speaker 4: what matters is is personal ambition. What matters is your
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  Speaker 4: professional accolades and achievements and the relational obligations we can
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  Speaker 4: kind of push to the side.
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  Speaker 3: They're less important.
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to sound like a curmudgeon because I
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  Speaker 1: swear to God that I work very hard at this
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  Speaker 1: and I'm not. But I will tell you, though, that
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  Speaker 1: all these movies and binge watches we're watching, there's a
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  Speaker 1: lot of smartphone action taking place where they're texting each other,
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  Speaker 1: breaking up and stuff. And I think that's one of
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  Speaker 1: the leading reasons why that we have got a divide
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  Speaker 1: in this country, because we think it's just one text
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  Speaker 1: away and everything is fine.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I talk about the book, something called Attention Infidelity.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 4: And it's the idea that we carry around these smartphones,
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  Speaker 4: which are distraction machines. We're constantly getting pinged by notifications.
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  Speaker 4: We may have an update and we may have an
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  Speaker 4: email that requires a response. And it degrades our social
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  Speaker 4: and romantic interactions that were not fully present before. when
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  Speaker 4: the pull of smartphones and social media is always there.
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  Speaker 4: I'm sure you've had the experience of seeing groups of
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  Speaker 4: teenagers huddled over their smartphones and they're all watching or
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  Speaker 4: scrolling and not talking to each other. And so I think,
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  Speaker 4: you know, I don't think smartphones are necessarily destroying social
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  Speaker 4: and romantic relationships, but I think it's absolutely degrading them.
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  Speaker 1: Well, something is happening in the romance department because, I mean, me,
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  Speaker 1: and it's not because I'm a product of the 70s
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  Speaker 1: or the latter part of the 1960s, the summer of
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  Speaker 1: love and stuff, but I'm not seeing a lot of
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  Speaker 1: cuddling up and holding each other because my dad would
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  Speaker 1: always say that, God, these kids are driving me crazy.
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  Speaker 1: They can't get off each other. I want to go
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  Speaker 1: back to that day when people can't get off each other.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think that there's not the same kind
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  Speaker 4: of appetite for social and romantic risk.
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  Speaker 3: It's incredibly important to.
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  Speaker 4: Take a risk in life, whether it's a professional risk
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  Speaker 4: or a social or romantic risk, right? Like asking someone out,
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  Speaker 4: especially in person, is risky, right? It entails the possibility
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  Speaker 4: of rejection, which for adolescents can feel devastating. But young
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  Speaker 4: people really need the opportunity to have those experiences, to
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  Speaker 4: build confidence, to realize that social friction is sort of
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  Speaker 4: part of human interaction.
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  Speaker 3: It's inevitable.
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  Speaker 4: And I think like if you try to avoid it
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  Speaker 4: by using text messaging, by by communicating over social media,
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  Speaker 4: you lose the opportunity to do that and to sort
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  Speaker 4: of build those muscles.
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  Speaker 1: One of my side hustles, I'm working with a lot
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  Speaker 1: of high school students and I have no problem walking
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  Speaker 1: up to him saying, what do you think of the
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  Speaker 1: state of the country? What's going through your mind right now?
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  Speaker 1: Do not hide from me because I'll call you out.
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  Speaker 1: And finally, they're starting to talk about it. Are they
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  Speaker 1: afraid of being judged?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, absolutely.
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  Speaker 4: If you've ever heard of the words, the ick or cringe,
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  Speaker 4: I think the fear of social judgment is omnipresent among
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  Speaker 4: young adults today.
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  Speaker 3: And I absolutely understand it, right?
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  Speaker 4: That people are walking around with sophisticated video and audio
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  Speaker 4: recording equipment that then they can broadcast instantly to the
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  Speaker 4: rest of the world. And that's a very different environment
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  Speaker 4: in which to grow up. And the fear of making
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  Speaker 4: a mistake saying the wrong thing, doing something kind of
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  Speaker 4: awkward or graceless can have much longer term results. I
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  Speaker 4: talk about in the book this experience I had in
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  Speaker 4: my teenage years in the 90s playing a soccer game.
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  Speaker 4: And this was in western New York where it was
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  Speaker 4: in the fall and it was cold. So we all
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  Speaker 4: had warm up pants and jackets on. And right before
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  Speaker 4: the game, we'd take it off and take on the field.
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  Speaker 4: And this one player on the other team came running
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  Speaker 4: out in his underwear because he had accidentally taken off
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  Speaker 4: his shorts with his warm up pants. And that was
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  Speaker 4: obviously an embarrassing, potentially a mortifying situation. But it was
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  Speaker 4: only seen by a small group of people. And, you know,
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  Speaker 4: he may have heard about it at school the next day.
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  Speaker 4: But beyond that, it kind of disappeared. It didn't follow
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  Speaker 4: him for the rest of his life on the Internet.
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  Speaker 3: There was no photos. There's no video.
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  Speaker 4: And I feel like that is such a loss because
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  Speaker 4: part of what it means to be young is to
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  Speaker 4: make mistakes and to learn from mistakes. And if you
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  Speaker 4: simply avoid trying to make any kind of mistake or
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  Speaker 4: any kind of off-putting or awkward mistakes, moment, then you don't,
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  Speaker 4: don't have the opportunity to learn.
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  Speaker 1: Dude, you are so in tune with where people are
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  Speaker 1: right now. And I'm going to bring this up as
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  Speaker 1: an example in this new series called Carrie, where they're
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  Speaker 1: taking that, that's that Stephen King book and they're turning
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  Speaker 1: it into a series. They put the social media in
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  Speaker 1: there and they're doing exactly what you just said, except they're, they're,
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  Speaker 1: they're embarrassing the hell out of her all over the web. And,
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  Speaker 1: and it's like, Oh my God. I mean, and she's
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  Speaker 1: not the only one going through it, nor is the
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  Speaker 1: guy with the underwear.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And I think it just changes how you act. You're
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  Speaker 4: a DJ and you may have had the experience. But
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  Speaker 4: in the book, I talk about how DJs and dance
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  Speaker 4: clubs started noticing that people were less likely to dance.
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  Speaker 4: There are more people standing at the periphery of the
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  Speaker 4: dance floor, have their phones out. And what they realized
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  Speaker 4: was that people were afraid of, you know, their dance
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  Speaker 4: moves and bodily gyrations recorded and broadcasted. So they were
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  Speaker 4: staying off the dance floor. And once these dance clubs
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  Speaker 4: banned phones, people got back out there.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
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  Speaker 1: You just shot me all the way back to my
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  Speaker 1: disco days where I had to be the one that
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  Speaker 1: had to go out there and learn how to do
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  Speaker 1: the bump and then the hustle and all that kind
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  Speaker 1: of stuff. It took a lot to get me out there.
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  Speaker 1: And you're so spot on about that because the high
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  Speaker 1: school dances and even the weddings that I do today,
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  Speaker 1: people would rather dance in the corner and look at
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  Speaker 1: their smartphone and you accept that. Well, they're dancing. I
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  Speaker 1: can see their body moving.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 4: And again, that is sort of tragic that we've lost
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  Speaker 4: out on this really important social activity, right? It's a
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  Speaker 4: great way to sort of get out there, express yourself
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  Speaker 4: and connect with people.
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  Speaker 1: Please don't move. There's more with Daniel Cox coming up next.
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  Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming back to this incredible
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: conversation with daniel cox the book we're talking about is
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  Speaker 1: generation uncoupled would our grandparents know what this world looks
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: like today would they accept it or would they feel
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  Speaker 1: like aliens from mars.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah i mean i i think that the the rival
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  Speaker 4: of this technology has so fundamentally reordered our social relationships
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  Speaker 4: that we haven't really stopped and questioned whether we should
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  Speaker 4: put some brakes on it, put some limits on it.
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  Speaker 4: We know that schools are starting to place limits on smartphones.
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  Speaker 4: But I think too, we need to really be aware
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  Speaker 4: of how that's changing the social behavior of our young people, right?
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  Speaker 4: That they're becoming more risk averse, that they're less likely
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  Speaker 4: to hang out with each other because.
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  Speaker 2: They don't have the feeling of being isolated or lonely
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  Speaker 2: because they always have their smartphone and they can feel
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  Speaker 2: like they're kind of connected, right?
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  Speaker 4: They're distracted or they're entertained. with an approximation of social activity,
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  Speaker 4: but it's not as good as the real thing.
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  Speaker 1: So true about that. Because I mean, I remember during
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  Speaker 1: the COVID lockdown, I mean, I was so injured spiritually
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  Speaker 1: because my grandkids would not go out there and find
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  Speaker 1: kids and, well, it's the lockdown, it's a lockdown, you
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  Speaker 1: can't do it. And now that it's over and they're
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  Speaker 1: mingling with people, I'm going, what are you guys up to?
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  Speaker 1: And then they'll tell me that, you know, that we
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  Speaker 1: just sit around and we judge people. And I go,
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  Speaker 1: why do you do that? What is it that you're
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  Speaker 1: searching for? Because if they're judging, if you're judging them,
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  Speaker 1: who's judging you because all eyes are on you as well, buddy.
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  Speaker 3: Right. And I think that's, that's.
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  Speaker 4: Even, even more difficult when it comes to dating, right?
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  Speaker 4: Like where you don't quite know what the rules of
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  Speaker 4: the road are. No norms and dating behavior are changing
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  Speaker 4: so quickly that, you know, whether you should pay for
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: the day, whether you should hold open the door, you know,
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  Speaker 4: what is the expectations for you as a man or
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  Speaker 4: a woman that, And I think there's such a hunger
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  Speaker 4: among the young people that I talk to for sort
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  Speaker 4: of a clear path in terms of how courtship should
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  Speaker 4: work and how it should proceed. And I think there's
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  Speaker 4: just simply a lack of that now, and it makes
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  Speaker 4: things so much harder.
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  Speaker 1: In your book, Generation Uncoupled, do you talk about judging
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  Speaker 1: the book by its cover? And boy, I'll tell you what,
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  Speaker 1: just this week alone, the billionaire wife that was in
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: the White House versus who's the press secretary. And my
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: God in heaven, if everybody's not bashing these people because
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: of the way they looked.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and we make all these snap judgments about people.
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  Speaker 4: And again, I'm going to bring it back to dating
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  Speaker 4: a bit because we see this in dating.
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  Speaker 3: That people are so quick to write people off, right?
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  Speaker 4: Like the whole idea of the ick, it can be
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  Speaker 4: literally anything I talk about in the book. It could
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  Speaker 4: be the way you eat spaghetti. It could be, you know,
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  Speaker 4: you're just tripping on the curb or your inability to
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  Speaker 4: turn off your car alarm. And there is sort of
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  Speaker 4: a status that comes with it that you can sort
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  Speaker 4: of say, well, this guy was great.
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  Speaker 3: He was kind and he's wealthy and he's six feet tall.
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  Speaker 4: But I kind of got the ick because of You know,
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  Speaker 4: the way he ordered, you know, at the restaurant and
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  Speaker 4: it's going to be like, well, I'm the kind of
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  Speaker 4: person who can, you know, take a guy that on
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  Speaker 4: paper and in the experience was great. But but there's
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  Speaker 4: this one little thing I didn't like. So I was
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  Speaker 4: able to to blow him off. And I think that
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  Speaker 4: that is broadcast on social media and it becomes, you know,
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  Speaker 4: narratives for other folks who are saying, wow, you know,
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  Speaker 4: it's really it's really.
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  Speaker 3: Tough out there.
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  Speaker 1: I got to tell you how this book is going
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  Speaker 1: to change people because this is how it's led me
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: away from Grok as well as Gemini and ChatGPT. I
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: go to your book for answers. I go there to
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: learn new things because we are stuck on content and
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: we just want to learn something new. And I think
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: sometimes that we will create chaos in other people's lives
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: because it's just something new. But your book gives us
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: that place of, oh my God, this is something new
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  Speaker 1: and I kind of like what I'm reading here.
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  Speaker 3: And I think, too, thank you. First of all, thank
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  Speaker 3: you for that.
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  Speaker 4: And I think, too, is the realization that when it
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  Speaker 4: comes to social media, which is increasingly the way young
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: people are getting news and information, young men, young women
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  Speaker 4: are getting entirely different views of the world and understanding
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: of the world. And it's because of the algorithm that
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: before anything, it knows whether you're a man or a woman.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: And it starts feeding you content that is validating your
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: personal experiences, affirming your points of view, and in some cases,
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: showing the incredibly uncharitable depictions of the opposite sex. And
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: what's happened over the course of the time we've had
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: social media is it changed from a place where you
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: would kind of message some friends and family members to
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: an activity where you're basically scrolling Perfectionally produced content by strangers.
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  Speaker 4: I talk about in the book that one quarter of
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: TikTok users produce 98 percent of all the content on
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: the platform.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, boy. Wow.
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  Speaker 4: And these are these these these videos that are not
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  Speaker 4: representative of all men, all women or the experiences of teenagers.
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  Speaker 4: They're they're representative of the small slice of people that
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: are doing it.
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  Speaker 1: You know, one of the things, and this is kind
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: of a personal thing, is that what you describe inside
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  Speaker 1: the book and listening to you speak about how you're
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: aware of everything going around. Did you grow up in
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  Speaker 1: a state like Montana? Because I feel like that you
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: were following me in Montana. There's so much in this
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: book that I'm going, oh, my God, this guy is
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: speaking a street that I grew up with. He's got
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: to come from a family or a small area where
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: people were together at one time because he's got something
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: to compare it to.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: So I did not grow up in Montana. I grew
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: up in Western New York in a town called Pittsburgh.
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  Speaker 4: And one of the things that I think was really
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  Speaker 4: helpful for me. So I'm a middle child. I have
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: two brothers, one older, one younger. And that experience was
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  Speaker 4: valuable that, you know, my parents were divorced, but like
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  Speaker 4: they often required us, whether it was my mom's or
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  Speaker 4: my dad's house to work things out.
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  Speaker 3: By ourselves, right?
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  Speaker 4: That they didn't intervene to try to referee everything. When
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: we'd order pizza, you better have taken a couple of
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: slices because if you tried to come back for seconds,
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: there was never any left, right? So you just learned
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: what it was like to live in the sort of messy.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: Sometimes annoying environment where you had to think about other people.
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  Speaker 4: And I think that's incredibly valuable. And what's happening now
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: is I document in the book that increasingly young people
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: are raised in households where they have fewer siblings or
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: their siblings are further in age apart. So they're not
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: directly engaging with or competing with those closest to them.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: And so they don't have the same skills. Like they're
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: not sharing bedrooms or bathrooms.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: I can totally see universities picking up this book and
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: learning from it, either that or civics classes picking up
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: on this because you're so spot on with where we
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: are as a generation and a society. Where can people
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: go to find out more about you and how you
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: got into this journey and more about the book as well?
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: So you can find the book at bookstores near you.
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: I have a sub stack called American Storylines. You can
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: find it there. And then I run the American, the
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: Survey Center on American Life, americansurveycenter.org.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: You got to come back to this show anytime in
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: the future, dude. I mean, 20 minutes went by so
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: freaking fast here. And I know that people are going
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: to do the same thing with the book. They got
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: to take their time and bring a yellow highlighter. Learn
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: something from what you're presenting to us.
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Well, you be brilliant today, okay?
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Take care.