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SMNTY Classics: Queerbaiting 101 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephane
0:07
Speaker 1: Never Told You production of I Heart Radio. So today
0:19
Speaker 1: we're bringing back kind of a controversial episode on queer baiting.
0:24
Speaker 1: It's not that the episode was controversial, but the topic
0:26
Speaker 1: itself is very, very controversial, and there have been a
0:31
Speaker 1: lot of renewed arguments around it lately, and I wanted
0:36
Speaker 1: to share, of course, the fan fiction facts that I've
0:39
Speaker 1: seen lately. I've seen a new trend where people are
0:43
Speaker 1: writing in um ships, as in relationships that they don't
0:47
Speaker 1: actually ship but like to write in, which is nice.
0:50
Speaker 1: I think that's a step forward. It's not I think
0:53
Speaker 1: that's a good thing. I think you're like, oh, let
0:55
Speaker 1: me try this, and that their their experience has been positive. UM.
0:59
Speaker 1: So there's that, But also recently it's hard to say
1:03
Speaker 1: we're recording a lot right now. UM. We did a
1:07
Speaker 1: happy hour on the HBO show Our Flag Means Death,
1:11
Speaker 1: which I not to spoil it. I don't think this
1:16
Speaker 1: will which is I'm sure it's very comforting to everybody. UM,
1:20
Speaker 1: but it had an example of something that I thought
1:22
Speaker 1: was queer rating and then turned out not to be,
1:25
Speaker 1: which it was very refreshing and the kind of depressing
1:29
Speaker 1: without refreshing. But it's caused a lot of conversation. It's
1:34
Speaker 1: caused a lot of conversation, and recently renewed for a
1:38
Speaker 1: second season. It took a while recently renewed, and so
1:42
Speaker 1: I'm sure we had a lot to say about that.
1:45
Speaker 1: We'll have a lot to say about that. But as
1:47
Speaker 1: this is Pride month, I was just thinking about that,
1:49
Speaker 1: and a lot of people have sent me articles about
1:53
Speaker 1: that show and about what it could mean and the
1:55
Speaker 1: representation and in terms of how you can read these characters.
1:59
Speaker 1: And I'm very excited to talk about it. Are to
2:01
Speaker 1: half talked about it like we're time traveling right now.
2:03
Speaker 1: This is wild as it is, so please enjoy this
2:08
Speaker 1: classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome
2:16
Speaker 1: to stuff. I never told of your production of I
2:18
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. So I have a very important question for you, Samantha.
2:30
Speaker 1: Oh no, yes, the most important question. Here we go.
2:35
Speaker 1: Are you a shipper? Okay, so I don't I didn't
2:42
Speaker 1: know what that was for the longest time, and I
2:45
Speaker 1: took that very literally and I was like, like ships,
2:48
Speaker 1: like I like ships, anither ship? I don't mean, do
2:51
Speaker 1: you like ships, as you know, because I get very
2:54
Speaker 1: very like motion suck. So the idea of being on
2:57
Speaker 1: a ship is terrifying to me. And just because you know,
3:00
Speaker 1: all I think of is diseases like cruises, cruise ships
3:03
Speaker 1: and diseases, so and murders in the middle of nowhere.
3:06
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, but that that I know what it
3:09
Speaker 1: actually is, which is meaning putting people together in relationships. Right, Okay.
3:15
Speaker 1: I had to ask again because I'm like, I'm not
3:16
Speaker 1: one of those cool kids. What he does mean? So no,
3:22
Speaker 1: very long answer no, because I had no idea what
3:25
Speaker 1: that was. Now Do I like couples that are given
3:30
Speaker 1: to me? Like I know that, yes, some them don't
3:34
Speaker 1: make sense and fill force? But you know, but so
3:39
Speaker 1: are you like watching a show and there's two characters
3:42
Speaker 1: and you just want them to get together or do
3:45
Speaker 1: you sort of just sort of go with it? I
3:48
Speaker 1: think typically I go with it now, to be fair SVU.
3:53
Speaker 1: For the longest time, I did want Olivia and Stabler.
3:58
Speaker 1: Elliott and Olivia they should have gotten the other, but
4:00
Speaker 1: they really shouldn't know because you can't work like that,
4:02
Speaker 1: and they know. But to me, Olivia was just so
4:06
Speaker 1: alone and her closest connection was him, so it only
4:10
Speaker 1: made sense to me. Mm hmm. Did you know anyone
4:13
Speaker 1: else that shared that viewpoint? Oh? So many people, which
4:16
Speaker 1: is why, even though you know it is a cop show,
4:19
Speaker 1: people are still excited that Elliott Stabler is coming back,
4:22
Speaker 1: he's having a he's getting his own show, and people
4:29
Speaker 1: probably because it's definitely another law You know, Law in
4:31
Speaker 1: Order has like fifteen shows and this is one more
4:33
Speaker 1: of those. But yeah, it's gonna be a cover crossover
4:37
Speaker 1: and anytime they do like cross social media, people freak out.
4:41
Speaker 1: I am one of those people, It's true. One more
4:46
Speaker 1: follow up question, does this couple have a name? Like
4:49
Speaker 1: a ship name? See? That never happened in my generation.
4:54
Speaker 1: I don't think that wasn't a thing. Who was the
4:58
Speaker 1: most famous couple that has I don't know. I always
5:01
Speaker 1: think of brand Jelina, Oh yeah, yeah, there you go.
5:03
Speaker 1: But Angelina, so that is in my timeframe. But I
5:06
Speaker 1: think that was just so dumb because I also was
5:08
Speaker 1: not team but Angelina, Okay, I was too, So that
5:15
Speaker 1: helps like that just has a negative connotation to me.
5:19
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm. So obviously, since you're asking me these questions,
5:24
Speaker 1: you and I know that because of your fan fiction.
5:27
Speaker 1: You ship, you shipped pretty hard, don't you. I it's
5:31
Speaker 1: so funny to me, UM, because as I've said before,
5:36
Speaker 1: I am not a romantic person. Like I don't watch
5:40
Speaker 1: brom comms. It's not my thing. It's almost always my
5:44
Speaker 1: least favorite part of any entertainment because I'm just not
5:48
Speaker 1: into it. UM. But recently, I don't know why I
5:55
Speaker 1: have started shipping things, and I think I ship things
5:59
Speaker 1: that I can tell is never going to happen. I
6:05
Speaker 1: don't know, because it feels almost like a safer thing.
6:09
Speaker 1: Are are more fun to imagine? Is it more like
6:13
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory type of Yeah, they're actually together, even
6:17
Speaker 1: though they're not going to say it out loud, but
6:19
Speaker 1: if you watch their actions, they're together. Well. I've had
6:25
Speaker 1: an in depth discussion recently with a lot of people
6:28
Speaker 1: about UM, particularly Star Wars and sure, yeah, but Luke
6:36
Speaker 1: and and Han and that I've started shipping that, and
6:39
Speaker 1: I have no idea why, UM and I So today
6:44
Speaker 1: we're we're talking about queer baiting. And when I think
6:46
Speaker 1: about the difference to me and what queer baiting is
6:50
Speaker 1: and isn't, because there is a huge debate over it
6:53
Speaker 1: is intention and I I don't feel like the writer's
6:58
Speaker 1: ever meant for anybody to interpret that. Han and Luke
7:02
Speaker 1: we're gonna be together, you know what I mean. So
7:05
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like a conspiracy so much is. But
7:08
Speaker 1: he he rushed off into the blizzard on haff to
7:12
Speaker 1: save him and body heat. It's true. It's true. It's true.
7:16
Speaker 1: That's true. I've seen it several times now, so many now, yes, yes,
7:23
Speaker 1: you're the best, Thank you. Yes. So we're talking about
7:29
Speaker 1: the contentious term of queer bating, which is something that
7:32
Speaker 1: has been on my mind for a while. Um, and
7:38
Speaker 1: I have found myself falling into these relationships that get
7:42
Speaker 1: brought up in this conversation a lot. Dean and Cassiele
7:46
Speaker 1: from Supernatural desty L is probably the one of the biggest,
7:49
Speaker 1: if not the biggest example given. Oh yes, Now, don't
7:56
Speaker 1: get me wrong. Before I even started watching it and
7:58
Speaker 1: now I have, it's of my regulars, now my rotation. Um,
8:03
Speaker 1: you did tell me this, you, This was the first
8:05
Speaker 1: thing you told me. And and then when I was
8:08
Speaker 1: introduced castile on the show, I was like, oh, there
8:10
Speaker 1: he is, and You're like just wait, just wait. And
8:14
Speaker 1: then they even have an episode where they dedicate to
8:17
Speaker 1: the fact that that is a theory. Yeah, the fan
8:20
Speaker 1: fiction episode, right, yes, yes, Um yeah, They're probably the
8:26
Speaker 1: biggest example. And it's one of those things where again
8:31
Speaker 1: I'm kind of oblivious almost when it comes to romantic singles, Samantha.
8:36
Speaker 1: You know this, I just miss a lot of context,
8:39
Speaker 1: a lot. But the fact that I picked up on
8:42
Speaker 1: destl without the Internet, I think that is that says something.
8:47
Speaker 1: I was like, these two characters, something's going on here.
8:51
Speaker 1: This is a little I can see them getting together.
8:54
Speaker 1: Dean even says he loves him anyway. Signs are there, Samantha,
9:01
Speaker 1: The signs are there apparently, yes, yes, Um. And then
9:05
Speaker 1: I I got really caught up in Finn and po
9:08
Speaker 1: for a hot minute from Star Wars, which is called
9:10
Speaker 1: storm Pilot. That's the shipping name for that, and I
9:13
Speaker 1: really wanted them to end up together. Um, and I
9:17
Speaker 1: could go on such a deep dive, and I kind
9:21
Speaker 1: of did in our two part fan fiction episodes on
9:25
Speaker 1: why this whole thing is where? Why are we so eager,
9:30
Speaker 1: or at least some segment of us, to put two
9:34
Speaker 1: male characters together. Um. I don't know if you know this, Samantha,
9:38
Speaker 1: because you not in the fan fiction world, like I am,
9:41
Speaker 1: but slash it just makes up a huge, huge portion
9:47
Speaker 1: of fan fiction and it's mostly written by women, and
9:49
Speaker 1: it's two men together. What's slash? Is that what it's called? Yeah? Ok,
9:54
Speaker 1: because you you indicate with the slash, so it would
9:57
Speaker 1: be dean slash castil. Yeah, that's not how I Okay.
10:01
Speaker 1: I'm glad you told me that, because I would have
10:03
Speaker 1: interpreted as a different thing, like they're the same person,
10:06
Speaker 1: one in the same but not necessarily relationship and or
10:10
Speaker 1: is either or m hmm okay, yeah, well I'm happy
10:16
Speaker 1: to share my fan fiction knowledge at any point. So, um,
10:22
Speaker 1: I actually I feel like I could do a ten
10:24
Speaker 1: part series on this, and I want to talk about
10:26
Speaker 1: it so much, but if I do it in a
10:28
Speaker 1: kind of a nutshell. I think one of the main
10:31
Speaker 1: reasons is there are more male characters. They're traditionally more
10:35
Speaker 1: well developed, the male body is less politicized in the
10:38
Speaker 1: female body in a plethora of ways. Uh. And then
10:43
Speaker 1: the lack of platonic relationships, but particularly between men and
10:47
Speaker 1: women in our media, but also men and men um
10:51
Speaker 1: and so any type of closeness. I feel like we
10:54
Speaker 1: automatically interpret it as romantic because it usually is. But UM,
11:01
Speaker 1: the truth remains that some companies and creators tease a
11:08
Speaker 1: queer relationship and never actually give it. And it's become
11:15
Speaker 1: a hot topic of debate. And uh, I've I've seen
11:19
Speaker 1: it in uh so so many things and and oh anyway,
11:26
Speaker 1: another piece of this, I I know I'm seeing things,
11:31
Speaker 1: like I said, where writers didn't intend it, like in
11:35
Speaker 1: Han and Luca is the best example, because I just
11:37
Speaker 1: feel like there's no way they thought all these women
11:40
Speaker 1: would latch onto that. UM. And I know I brought
11:44
Speaker 1: up before, UM how my gay male gay friends have
11:49
Speaker 1: said that this makes them uncomfortable, that they feel like
11:51
Speaker 1: they can't have platonic relationships with a man without it
11:55
Speaker 1: being misinterpreted by somebody. And I I would love to
12:00
Speaker 1: to hear from gay listeners with your thoughts and experiences
12:05
Speaker 1: about this. UM. I know for me personally, when I
12:08
Speaker 1: hadn't really come out as by but I had been
12:10
Speaker 1: with men and women, there was sort of this assumed
12:13
Speaker 1: sluttiness that I must be attracted to everyone, right, and UM,
12:19
Speaker 1: it was really problematic and it made me very uncomfortable.
12:22
Speaker 1: And and I had more than one dude he would
12:26
Speaker 1: come up to me and say, well, you kissed her,
12:29
Speaker 1: so you must be down to kiss me. What? Um?
12:33
Speaker 1: So yes, please, listeners right in your thoughts about that,
12:36
Speaker 1: your experiences with that. But okay, let's start with a definition. Essentially,
12:43
Speaker 1: queer baiting is what it sounds like. It's when creators
12:46
Speaker 1: and corporations lure lgbt Q plus audiences with the promise
12:50
Speaker 1: of a queer relationship and then that queer relationship never happens.
12:56
Speaker 1: Queer baiting is usually between two male characters. Again, that
12:59
Speaker 1: could because most of our developed characters are male, but
13:03
Speaker 1: not always. Queer baiting is a way for our entertainment
13:06
Speaker 1: to appeal to the masses while also safely bringing in
13:10
Speaker 1: l g b t Q plus characters. So sort of
13:12
Speaker 1: like a like kind of backhanded way of trying to
13:18
Speaker 1: have your cake and eat it too, to not offend anybody. Um.
13:23
Speaker 1: Some see queer bating as a lack of representation leading
13:26
Speaker 1: to misinterpretation. Some see it as a calculated strategy, like
13:31
Speaker 1: these storylines are never going to pay off, they never
13:34
Speaker 1: intended for them to pay off. They see it as
13:37
Speaker 1: a way for companies to use queer people as almost
13:40
Speaker 1: pawns and profitability. It's a big tease the creators put
13:45
Speaker 1: in this subtext that is never going to amount to anything.
13:49
Speaker 1: Um Glad's report found that about six point four percent
13:55
Speaker 1: of television's main characters or lgbt Q plus, so that's
14:00
Speaker 1: not that many. And just I would I would ask
14:06
Speaker 1: take a moment to absorb how not only disappointing but
14:09
Speaker 1: painful that is. It's toying with the community that doesn't
14:13
Speaker 1: frequently see themselves represented, and then almost ridiculing people in
14:18
Speaker 1: that community for thinking that that relationship could ever have
14:21
Speaker 1: been queer, that you could ever have interpreted it that way.
14:24
Speaker 1: It's almost gas lighting, like, how how did you see this,
14:28
Speaker 1: your silly fan, You're reading too much into it. Um.
14:31
Speaker 1: Some of these relationships are openly made fun of by creators,
14:35
Speaker 1: and the overall messages representation of these relationships is worth
14:38
Speaker 1: less than the risk of offending any homophobic audience member, right,
14:44
Speaker 1: And I would add that it seems like it fetishizes
14:47
Speaker 1: that in general, the LGBTQ population in general, which is
14:50
Speaker 1: harmful in every way. Let's just go in but fetishizing
14:54
Speaker 1: anything is harmful. But it does do that, and that's you.
14:57
Speaker 1: They're using it as a way to make profit, which
15:00
Speaker 1: is gross. Yes, yes it is, but a very brief history.
15:05
Speaker 1: In the nineteen nineties, companies started going after what was
15:07
Speaker 1: called the pink dollar or gay patronage. Some experts argue
15:12
Speaker 1: the merit of this idea. Either way, cur bating stem
15:15
Speaker 1: from the corporate desire to market to l g bt
15:17
Speaker 1: Q plus audiences while not once again to turning any
15:21
Speaker 1: homophobic viewers having their cake like you said and eating
15:25
Speaker 1: it too. So I gotta have it all, want all
15:27
Speaker 1: the audience, so god, let's to say in that fun line. So,
15:32
Speaker 1: queer bating has a long history, but it's in it's
15:35
Speaker 1: more modern sense. It goes back to quote, gay window
15:38
Speaker 1: advertising in the nineteen eighties, or using subtle elements to
15:41
Speaker 1: draw in the l g b d Q plus crowd.
15:44
Speaker 1: Some scholars also called this gay vague. There's also hoh
15:48
Speaker 1: yea or homooticism yay, which was first coined in two
15:53
Speaker 1: thousand one, which is more closely related to queer coating
15:56
Speaker 1: or reading. More on that in a second, but in
15:59
Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties it was used in the U.
16:01
Speaker 1: S courts to describe homophobic rhetoric. It's current meaning most
16:04
Speaker 1: likely originates on tumbler as early as the nineties. So
16:09
Speaker 1: another part of this is called situational homosexuality. Essentially, the
16:14
Speaker 1: absence of the characters of one gender means that people
16:16
Speaker 1: read a certain amount of same sex eroticism. However, many
16:20
Speaker 1: modern day researchers think the term is archaic, that it
16:23
Speaker 1: could apply to things like prisons, a temporary state, sort
16:26
Speaker 1: of like quote, I experimented in college, right as if
16:32
Speaker 1: it's only it's just based on the city. It was
16:34
Speaker 1: just a stage. It was just a stage in my life. Yeah. Yeah,
16:39
Speaker 1: So there are a lot, a lot of aspects to
16:42
Speaker 1: unpack in all of that, and we will. But first
16:45
Speaker 1: we're gonna pause for a quick break for word from
16:47
Speaker 1: our sponsor. I am I'm back, Thank you sponsor. So
17:05
Speaker 1: let's let's return again to Supernatural, which I do think
17:08
Speaker 1: is probably the biggest example modern current example of this
17:12
Speaker 1: if we look at it specifically. Some have argued that
17:15
Speaker 1: when Creators leaned into Destio, which is again these the
17:19
Speaker 1: team of main characters Dean and Castile, their ratings went
17:22
Speaker 1: up and the nature of that show, and that it
17:25
Speaker 1: is very self aware and very meta. There's like fan
17:28
Speaker 1: fiction about that. It's kind of confusing to explain but
17:33
Speaker 1: I love seeing people's faces when I try to explain this. Basically,
17:36
Speaker 1: they're they're sort of semi famous in this world, in
17:40
Speaker 1: this fake world, and people write fan fiction about them.
17:43
Speaker 1: But it's a cult, and it seems like it's mainly
17:45
Speaker 1: like young yes, oh thank you, who she is the
17:51
Speaker 1: like biggest fan of of Supernatural within the world which
17:56
Speaker 1: is like a series of books. Um she is like
17:59
Speaker 1: the more stereotypical fan fiction girl that they could have written.
18:05
Speaker 1: They did. They did um so because it is that way,
18:13
Speaker 1: because it is very self aware and very meta, there's
18:16
Speaker 1: a lot of room for creators to address these things,
18:19
Speaker 1: to directly address they're the fan culture, the fandom around
18:24
Speaker 1: Supernatural well at the same time sometimes mocking and dismissing them.
18:30
Speaker 1: The actors also play with at conventions and in bloopers,
18:33
Speaker 1: this dean and castile relationship, so they know about it
18:38
Speaker 1: and they leaned into it, but there's still kind of
18:40
Speaker 1: a mockery of it. I think can make fun of
18:43
Speaker 1: themselves in general. But yeah, they definitely, and especially the
18:46
Speaker 1: earlier episodes, the kind of homophobic yeah lines and and taglines.
18:51
Speaker 1: It's kind of it's sad. Yeah, yeah, and I I
18:57
Speaker 1: will fight anyone. I think Dean it's bisexual. I don't
19:00
Speaker 1: care what the creators say, but that's my opinion. I
19:05
Speaker 1: like that you get the one that is the most
19:07
Speaker 1: like as as he puts it in the show, because
19:10
Speaker 1: I just rewatched this episode where they are where the
19:13
Speaker 1: brothers are actually confused in being in the relationship and
19:17
Speaker 1: they're like, why do they think we're gay? Dean's like,
19:19
Speaker 1: why do we why do they think we're gay? And Uh, Sam,
19:22
Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm saying this. Sam's responses, Maybe you're
19:25
Speaker 1: but you're overcompensating. Is that why you think that? Now?
19:33
Speaker 1: It's it's odd because if you if a show goes
19:36
Speaker 1: on long enough, it's just this show is like fifteen
19:38
Speaker 1: years old. There's gonna be inconsistencies with the character because
19:41
Speaker 1: he is presented as like this alpha male always with
19:45
Speaker 1: the ladies. Um womanizer. Womanizer definitely Uh and you know
19:51
Speaker 1: he like listens to hard rock and he's a classic
19:55
Speaker 1: rock and he's gonna classic classic rock. I don't know.
19:59
Speaker 1: I really put my finger on why I think it
20:02
Speaker 1: and I get too hard into Supernatural and don't everybody's like,
20:06
Speaker 1: what the hell are y'all doing? This is not smnting.
20:10
Speaker 1: Would you say Crowley and Dean were also a ship? Oh?
20:14
Speaker 1: Absolutely yes, and it probably pretty much talks about being
20:19
Speaker 1: I think he's bisexual. He kind of lens into that.
20:23
Speaker 1: Anywhere there was a whole like triangle castile Crowley Dean. Yes,
20:28
Speaker 1: all right, okay, we've talked about Supernatural lot. Here's the
20:31
Speaker 1: probably the other biggest example UM is the BBC show Sherlock.
20:38
Speaker 1: I don't think you could read one article about queer
20:40
Speaker 1: bating and not come across this um. And it is
20:44
Speaker 1: shipping of the two main characters, John Watson and Sherlock Holmes,
20:48
Speaker 1: which is called John Walk which, by the way, again
20:52
Speaker 1: this is where I'm like, what, what's happening? What? I
20:55
Speaker 1: don't understand what's happening? Because I loved that show. I
20:59
Speaker 1: love that show. That was one of the ones that
21:00
Speaker 1: I was always into. And like, I know, the conversation
21:04
Speaker 1: came up that Sherlock maybe gay or bisexual because he's
21:09
Speaker 1: never been with women, or have been with anyone quote
21:12
Speaker 1: unquote it's specifically women, but I've never like, I know,
21:16
Speaker 1: there's that underlying joke because they're always together, so everybody
21:20
Speaker 1: assumes they're together, which, by the way once again is
21:23
Speaker 1: kind of like, why can't they just be friends in
21:25
Speaker 1: the story. But yeah, and I didn't. I never saw that.
21:29
Speaker 1: It's one of those things where once you look at
21:33
Speaker 1: and and Samantha, believe me, you can find you know, gifts,
21:37
Speaker 1: just pages of gifts, like see the proof. Um, once
21:42
Speaker 1: you see it, it's hard to unsee. They definitely stand
21:47
Speaker 1: really like way too close to each other a lot
21:49
Speaker 1: like face to face. And I know, I don't really
21:53
Speaker 1: remember it, it's been so long since I watched it,
21:55
Speaker 1: but I know there was like Moriarty is sometimes criticized
21:59
Speaker 1: as being painted his like the evil gay trope, right,
22:05
Speaker 1: kind of like a disturbed individual. Um, And I know
22:10
Speaker 1: there was something along with that that people often point to.
22:13
Speaker 1: And and yeah, as you're saying, I do see the
22:16
Speaker 1: point that because of the lack of representation, um, and don't.
22:22
Speaker 1: I mean this is also you could argue very true
22:24
Speaker 1: about our our society in the real world, where where
22:28
Speaker 1: men aren't allowed to have these emotional, deeply patonic relationships
22:32
Speaker 1: without them being read as romance. Um. The SAME's true
22:38
Speaker 1: for female characters. Again, I think I know I mentioned
22:43
Speaker 1: in a past episode if if if Luke had in
22:45
Speaker 1: fact been a woman, I'm telling you you would have
22:48
Speaker 1: been like it would have been meant to be interpreted
22:51
Speaker 1: that way. Um, people would read their relationship between John
22:56
Speaker 1: and Sherlock as romantic if one of them was me
22:58
Speaker 1: on the other female, or at least a lot more
23:00
Speaker 1: people would. Again, it boils down to we don't have
23:04
Speaker 1: a lot of representation, and we don't have a lot
23:06
Speaker 1: of diversity of stories being told and relationships and complex
23:11
Speaker 1: nuanced relationships. And I think that's changing, but right now
23:15
Speaker 1: we're we're just so desperate for these stories, so we're
23:19
Speaker 1: finding them where we can, are writing them. And I
23:22
Speaker 1: will come back to the importance of fan fiction and
23:24
Speaker 1: all this in a minute. Um. And John Lack is
23:27
Speaker 1: a great example where there are all these in show
23:30
Speaker 1: jokes that they are a coupled that show acknowledging what
23:33
Speaker 1: fans want, teasing it, but then nothing happens. Um. There
23:37
Speaker 1: are even references to Shorelock Moriarity fan fiction that are
23:41
Speaker 1: derided in the show. The creator Stephen Moffatt went out
23:45
Speaker 1: of his way to say in an interview, in terms
23:47
Speaker 1: of whether or not Sherlock was a sexual, is the
23:50
Speaker 1: choice of a monk, not the choice of an a sexual.
23:53
Speaker 1: If he was a sexual, there would be no tension
23:55
Speaker 1: in that, no fun in that. It's someone who abstains
23:57
Speaker 1: who's interesting. Um. And he gets criticized a lot in
24:03
Speaker 1: this whole kind of his response to people wanting that
24:06
Speaker 1: right are seeing it because I've read interviews where he's like, wow,
24:10
Speaker 1: I can't believe anyone would read it that way. And
24:12
Speaker 1: then I've read somewhere it's clear that he knows and
24:16
Speaker 1: is sort of making fun of it. Yeah, and he
24:18
Speaker 1: just doesn't care. Right. So there are also other shows
24:22
Speaker 1: in entertainment that included shows like House uh, the O
24:25
Speaker 1: C Merlin, Riverdale, and Rosolian Isles and among so many others,
24:31
Speaker 1: Solo a Star Wars story too, by the way, um
24:34
Speaker 1: some classics. Yes, And I remember this because I remember
24:37
Speaker 1: it was so shocking to me in my very very
24:40
Speaker 1: very conservative household, because I watched the show Gabrielle and
24:44
Speaker 1: Zena from Zena Warrior Princess. I think that was the
24:47
Speaker 1: first like I was like, what's happening? This is not what? Um.
24:51
Speaker 1: Then of course we have the Madonna and Brittany kissing
24:54
Speaker 1: at the MTV Music Awards. I think that would be
24:56
Speaker 1: definitely one of the big queer baiting things, because there's
24:59
Speaker 1: a lot of controversy like what is this, why are
25:01
Speaker 1: you doing this? As well as people always forget that
25:05
Speaker 1: Christina Aguilera was there too, and she kissed her. I
25:09
Speaker 1: don't know if you knew that they were both in
25:10
Speaker 1: stage with her. Yes, also Katie Perry's I kissed a
25:13
Speaker 1: girl and I liked it, which also has other connotations
25:17
Speaker 1: because she had been in this very religious lifestyle before
25:22
Speaker 1: she became well well known, which was always kind of like,
25:26
Speaker 1: huh interesting, Yeah, from what I remember, which I feel
25:30
Speaker 1: like a lot of pop female singers came from that
25:33
Speaker 1: kind of genre anyway. And then Rita or a song
25:36
Speaker 1: Girls the new one, uh, because you know what sex cells.
25:40
Speaker 1: And there was that huge debate about why they're doing
25:44
Speaker 1: all of this or why it's such a new fad.
25:46
Speaker 1: It seems um and the capitalization of pride companies are
25:51
Speaker 1: getting in on it, and as we see when you
25:52
Speaker 1: get sponsored, yeah, in a Pride parade, it's really kind
25:57
Speaker 1: of weird essentially doing the same thing, not actually committing
26:00
Speaker 1: to representation, but wanting queer patronage. Yeah, And I mean
26:05
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of argument about this with like
26:09
Speaker 1: kind of the annoyance with companies that just are like,
26:12
Speaker 1: here's a rainbow colored cupcake, happy pride, right, Like you know,
26:18
Speaker 1: there there's debate at least that's happening, and companies are
26:22
Speaker 1: appreciating the importance of it, but it feels so like
26:25
Speaker 1: superficial and shallow. What else are you doing? I mean
26:28
Speaker 1: that kind of goes hand in hand with the Black
26:30
Speaker 1: Lives Matter movement and like people do the one black tile,
26:33
Speaker 1: Like wait, but your company is not showing that in
26:36
Speaker 1: your hiring processes and all of this, and it's the
26:39
Speaker 1: same way you're showing this pride flag. Do you have
26:42
Speaker 1: representation in your company? Have you had it? Do you
26:44
Speaker 1: actually acknowledge that that needs to be a part of
26:46
Speaker 1: your diversity? Hello? Yes? Yeah? Um? And I guess speaking
26:52
Speaker 1: of singers, are Ariana Grande got accused of queer rating
26:56
Speaker 1: in her song Monopoly, which is a collaboration with Victoria
26:59
Speaker 1: mone nay Um when she's saying about liking men and
27:03
Speaker 1: women Taylor Swift video you need to calm down. Of course,
27:07
Speaker 1: caused a huge debate about where was she before this?
27:11
Speaker 1: And it's sort of it just feels like capitalizing and
27:16
Speaker 1: there's there's a certain degree to where people and entertainment,
27:21
Speaker 1: they are trying to make money, they are trying to profit,
27:23
Speaker 1: but it can feel so gross and like but what
27:28
Speaker 1: else have you done? What else are you doing? Um?
27:31
Speaker 1: And some people it's we should say view the very
27:35
Speaker 1: existence of queer brating as progress, that queer brading the term,
27:39
Speaker 1: wouldn't exist without at least some queer acceptance and examples
27:43
Speaker 1: in our media. There's also a debate about erasure versus labeling,
27:49
Speaker 1: like some some argue that it shouldn't be that you
27:55
Speaker 1: have to explicitly label oh, this is the gay couple,
27:58
Speaker 1: and then it becomes, at least unfortunately right now, it
28:01
Speaker 1: becomes their defining thing, like that is all about them,
28:05
Speaker 1: and they're not really complex or nuanced other than that.
28:09
Speaker 1: So that's another piece of this, right. And I think
28:12
Speaker 1: when you see because Ariana Grande was uh in two debates,
28:16
Speaker 1: the Monopoly song and another one where the video uh
28:20
Speaker 1: where she's talking about getting together with a dude ends
28:23
Speaker 1: up in the end the video kissing a girl. Um,
28:26
Speaker 1: and that was I was staying more criticism on that
28:29
Speaker 1: because obviously that wasn't necessarily a part of the song. Right.
28:34
Speaker 1: And then you have Monopoly where she people felt like
28:36
Speaker 1: she actually came out as by or pants actual and
28:40
Speaker 1: people celebrated that. So it's really interesting to see the
28:42
Speaker 1: two levels of like, okay, who and what dictates if
28:46
Speaker 1: this should be celebrated or this should be condemned, Right,
28:49
Speaker 1: and I interesting conversation. It does come up in a
28:52
Speaker 1: lot of things we talked about where it's always important
28:55
Speaker 1: to remind yourself no community is a monolith, and there
28:58
Speaker 1: should there should be health debate, and that's good. I
29:01
Speaker 1: do think it's good that it's happening, but yeah, you
29:03
Speaker 1: can see it definitely and things like that with Ario
29:06
Speaker 1: and Grande. Right. Um, there's also a difference between queer
29:10
Speaker 1: baiting and ship teasing. Ship teasing, which I didn't know
29:14
Speaker 1: endulges now it is different because at least one person
29:18
Speaker 1: in question is canonically queer. Also, there's a problem with
29:23
Speaker 1: only defining relationships the physical things like sus I, it's
29:27
Speaker 1: queer baiting if the same sex couple doesn't have sex
29:30
Speaker 1: but are clearly together in other way. Yeah, that's caused
29:35
Speaker 1: a lot of debate to right, well, we never saw
29:37
Speaker 1: them have sex, but there there are other ways to
29:40
Speaker 1: be in relationships. More representation the through line through this
29:44
Speaker 1: whole episode. But that is problematic to you when you're saying, well,
29:47
Speaker 1: you're not in a relationship because you never had sex.
29:50
Speaker 1: Um and and just to to clarify for people who
29:53
Speaker 1: are in as big big nerds as I am, Cannon
29:56
Speaker 1: is the accepted h like, not fan fiction. This is
30:01
Speaker 1: what happened. So they acknowledged, oh, this character is gay,
30:05
Speaker 1: is Cannon instead of me being like, but Dean and
30:09
Speaker 1: he's bisexual and it's just me and a lot of
30:13
Speaker 1: other people but not creators. Um oh uh. So queer
30:18
Speaker 1: coding is also a different thing. And this I didn't
30:20
Speaker 1: know about until we did this episode. Mary Kate McAlpine
30:24
Speaker 1: over at Medium it wrote about hot Fuzz in particular,
30:27
Speaker 1: and I got to watch it for the first time.
30:28
Speaker 1: It was some of the best research I've ever had.
30:32
Speaker 1: Um And So this is the Simon peg Nick Frost film,
30:35
Speaker 1: which was a two thousand and seven action comedy that
30:39
Speaker 1: was the second in the so called Cornetto trilogy. In
30:42
Speaker 1: the editing of the script, they got rid of, uh
30:45
Speaker 1: the love interest at the female love interest and made
30:48
Speaker 1: the conscious decision to leave in those scenes with the
30:52
Speaker 1: overlying romantic interest between the two male characters. Um or
30:57
Speaker 1: at least it can definitely be read that way. And
31:01
Speaker 1: and one of the creators, they've acknowledged it, celebrated it. Um,
31:06
Speaker 1: they're all for you shipping it, uh anything. Never. One
31:10
Speaker 1: thing that makes this example in particular different is they
31:12
Speaker 1: never make fun of There's never to the moment of
31:14
Speaker 1: like are YouTube ky or something like, it's not it's
31:17
Speaker 1: just not mentioned. Um So that is queer coding this
31:24
Speaker 1: to say, queer baiting sometimes gets level that fandoms where
31:26
Speaker 1: the relationships don't go the way fans want, which I
31:29
Speaker 1: feel like happens a lot, especially towards the end of
31:31
Speaker 1: the series. Um, there's some contention around whether we can
31:36
Speaker 1: assume what the creators intended and what we wanted. And
31:40
Speaker 1: that was worse than when creators and actors played into
31:43
Speaker 1: the trope and people saw an evil plot. I had
31:47
Speaker 1: to do that way. Sorry. M Ships can be a
31:50
Speaker 1: very risky business. The question becomes are we we are
31:54
Speaker 1: baiting ourselves? Are we so desperate for representation we're seeing
31:59
Speaker 1: it where it is? And are we dismissing cannon couples
32:02
Speaker 1: because we want to ship another couple so badly and
32:05
Speaker 1: we'll see no evidence otherwise, Annie, do you I think
32:09
Speaker 1: I'm a very flexible I could admit I don't know,
32:14
Speaker 1: I'm not very possessive or controlling, which I think it's
32:17
Speaker 1: the way to be of entertainment. And I'll be like,
32:20
Speaker 1: you know what, I can recognize it was never meant
32:23
Speaker 1: to go this way, but it's fun to think about.
32:26
Speaker 1: And by the way, some called this slash goggles. Yes,
32:30
Speaker 1: so fandoms can be they can be very um protective
32:37
Speaker 1: of stuff that they care about, and there can be
32:41
Speaker 1: a level of like infighting and gate keeping and entitlements
32:45
Speaker 1: and uh, I know for some people you're thinking what
32:49
Speaker 1: because I feel you probably won't encounter this unless you
32:52
Speaker 1: do go online and look up fan fiction or forms
32:56
Speaker 1: or whatever. But believe me, it's there and people will like.
33:01
Speaker 1: One of the most prominent examples to me is um
33:06
Speaker 1: people at least in the fan fiction world, really don't
33:09
Speaker 1: like Jenny Weasley, and they think you're stupid for even
33:13
Speaker 1: thinking they should be a couple because they so badly
33:16
Speaker 1: wanted things to go a different way. And that's different
33:19
Speaker 1: from queer baiting, and and so some people are believe
33:23
Speaker 1: we use queer bating way too much for we really
33:25
Speaker 1: just wanted things to go a different way and they didn't.
33:30
Speaker 1: I mean, people had a hard time. They really wanted uh,
33:34
Speaker 1: Harry and her Mindy to be together. They did. My
33:37
Speaker 1: mom wanted that too, and that was one of the
33:39
Speaker 1: cutest things because she's also not like a super she
33:43
Speaker 1: doesn't ship or I was just surprised when she said that.
33:46
Speaker 1: She's like, I thought they should have ended up together. Well,
33:48
Speaker 1: they kind of changed the relationship between Nevil Lombottom and
33:51
Speaker 1: Luna love Good from the books to the movies because
33:54
Speaker 1: in the books they don't ever get together, but in
33:56
Speaker 1: the movie they do. Yeah, I think they do get together,
34:01
Speaker 1: but it's like not, yeah, it's not in the books,
34:03
Speaker 1: Like you would have to read something else, so you
34:06
Speaker 1: would hope that it would be that, but they actually
34:08
Speaker 1: made it happen. Yeah, looks and I feel like that's
34:11
Speaker 1: definitely something that was a fan more than it was
34:15
Speaker 1: actually written. Oh well, that's an interesting point too, of
34:19
Speaker 1: like fan service and uh, I mean Star Wars comes
34:24
Speaker 1: up in so much of this because it is as
34:26
Speaker 1: huge as we talked about, this huge franchise, right, and
34:32
Speaker 1: so like there was a debate around the same sex
34:37
Speaker 1: kiss at the end of the newest one, and some
34:39
Speaker 1: people were like, well celebrating it. Other people were like,
34:41
Speaker 1: that is so why we don't even know who those
34:43
Speaker 1: characters are. Um, So there is that aspect of it too. Ah.
34:49
Speaker 1: There's a lot to unpack here, so many things. But
34:54
Speaker 1: before we can do that, we have to take one
34:56
Speaker 1: more break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back.
35:12
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. Uh And just some concluding thoughts. One
35:17
Speaker 1: as promised, I wanted to touch on fan fiction for
35:20
Speaker 1: a second. I would have talked about fan fiction if
35:22
Speaker 1: I had another podcast, it would be just fan fiction. UM.
35:26
Speaker 1: I have talked about how powerful it is. And most
35:32
Speaker 1: people who write fan fiction are women, are young girls, queer, um,
35:41
Speaker 1: from marginalized communities because they we were seeing this space
35:45
Speaker 1: where we weren't being represented, so we went and made it.
35:49
Speaker 1: And it gets mocked and derided and ridiculed. But I
35:54
Speaker 1: think it's this beautiful creative space. And so if you're
35:57
Speaker 1: if you're shipping someone and it's not working out for you,
36:00
Speaker 1: there's fan fiction for it. I guarantee you, and you
36:03
Speaker 1: can always write write the fan fiction. Now, of course,
36:06
Speaker 1: this isn't the same thing as seeing representation explicit representation
36:12
Speaker 1: in the entertainment we consume um in movies and television
36:16
Speaker 1: and books. But I just I feel like it's really
36:21
Speaker 1: telling that we make fun of fan fiction and particularly
36:25
Speaker 1: young women writing it, as if they're silly, and I mean,
36:31
Speaker 1: the fearmongering around it, you wouldn't believe. It s like
36:35
Speaker 1: there's like a panic around young girls writing fan fiction
36:39
Speaker 1: and what does it mean in sexuality? And oh my god,
36:42
Speaker 1: and um, I think that's very telling. Well, I mean,
36:46
Speaker 1: we know Twilight began as fan fiction. Yes, it's a
36:49
Speaker 1: Harry Potter fan fiction, um, as well as it wasn't
36:53
Speaker 1: fifty twos of great fan fiction. Yes. The most hilarious
36:56
Speaker 1: thing about this to me is so Twilight was a
36:58
Speaker 1: Harry Potter fan fiction, right, and then fifty Shades of
37:01
Speaker 1: Grays a Twilight fan fiction. And there was in fighting
37:05
Speaker 1: between them, or at least I seemed to recall where
37:07
Speaker 1: one of them was like, you can't do that. It's like,
37:09
Speaker 1: that's what you did. And each has its own success
37:15
Speaker 1: and also some they made a lot of money and
37:18
Speaker 1: they made careers and you do you. At the same time,
37:21
Speaker 1: there's this whole underlying idea of fear of sex and
37:27
Speaker 1: fear of sexuality and it's both of those days. But whatever,
37:31
Speaker 1: what not? Um, and you're right kind of one up
37:34
Speaker 1: to each other. I felt like, Yeah, it's funny. I
37:37
Speaker 1: I have read so much fan fiction. There's sort of
37:40
Speaker 1: lore about certain fan fictions, like there's fan fiction about
37:45
Speaker 1: this fan fiction and I knew that one that got
37:48
Speaker 1: turned into Twilight. I never read it, but I remember
37:51
Speaker 1: seeing it. Everyone kind of knew about it. And then
37:55
Speaker 1: there's a whole like supernatural fan fiction universe for people
37:59
Speaker 1: have taken actors created in that universe and written about them. Um.
38:04
Speaker 1: So well that was all Becky, Like she made a
38:06
Speaker 1: career of being a fan fiction writer. Yeah, and that's
38:10
Speaker 1: actually easier to do than you might think. These days,
38:14
Speaker 1: the copyright part can get interesting. Um. And I would
38:19
Speaker 1: also say, because some people have been like, well, write
38:21
Speaker 1: your own thing, Like, don't take someone else's idea. It's
38:24
Speaker 1: a hobby. It's not like, you know, if you like
38:27
Speaker 1: to play soccer, I'm not going to tell you we'll
38:30
Speaker 1: go professional then like you're wasting your time. Um, it's
38:34
Speaker 1: just it's a hobby. Inspiration comes from different things, and
38:38
Speaker 1: why wouldn't it come from something that you love? Yes,
38:42
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful transformed with space where fans get to
38:45
Speaker 1: kind of play in the same sandbox. And it's nice
38:48
Speaker 1: because you all start from that shared love of this thing,
38:52
Speaker 1: and you don't have to explain the world. It's already
38:54
Speaker 1: there and you could just go on. Um, although apparently
38:58
Speaker 1: you don't have control of your world. Know, the ending
39:01
Speaker 1: is so tragic one my fan fiction. You you all,
39:06
Speaker 1: I've gotten to the end while I haven't written it,
39:08
Speaker 1: but I know how it ends, and it is the
39:10
Speaker 1: saddest thing I've ever Wow, brutal Han and Luke will
39:15
Speaker 1: never be happy together. Never um, which is kind of
39:19
Speaker 1: a segue into that. My next point is, I do
39:22
Speaker 1: think it's it's worth remembering that there's other loves than
39:25
Speaker 1: romantic love, and I would love for us to see
39:27
Speaker 1: that more in our media. Right For me, growing up
39:32
Speaker 1: not having tons of boyfriends and relationships, I most loved
39:37
Speaker 1: and treasured all of the books and or movies that
39:40
Speaker 1: were about my friends. And of course it's not as
39:42
Speaker 1: accepted with men unless you're being misogynistic together and being dumb.
39:47
Speaker 1: It seems again that's a stereotype, but that's what the
39:50
Speaker 1: big movie hits are. If you look at like Hangover
39:53
Speaker 1: and all of those movies. But for me, like I
39:57
Speaker 1: related the most. I think my all time favorite book
39:59
Speaker 1: growing up was Just as Long as We're Together. So
40:02
Speaker 1: it was a book written by Judy Bloom, which I
40:05
Speaker 1: loved because it was about three girls coming of age.
40:08
Speaker 1: And of course I also loved it because it was
40:10
Speaker 1: there was an Asian adopted child into this book and
40:14
Speaker 1: I felt very, very very represented for the first time ever.
40:17
Speaker 1: Um And it was one of my favorite things. And
40:20
Speaker 1: I loved that idea of friendship. And I think that's
40:23
Speaker 1: why I loved the shows like Sex in the City.
40:27
Speaker 1: I really really clung to Now, there's so many problematic
40:31
Speaker 1: things in that show, but really clung to those friendships
40:35
Speaker 1: and just the relationships that they had with each other
40:38
Speaker 1: and knowing that they would be together like that was
40:40
Speaker 1: the types of things that I loved because that's what
40:42
Speaker 1: I related with most. Yeah, and it's unfortunate to see
40:45
Speaker 1: that every time you see any relationship it has to
40:49
Speaker 1: be romantic, no matter what, that somehow is being ruined
40:53
Speaker 1: by romance everything. I'm just saying, yeah, and I the
41:04
Speaker 1: we just need to see more, We need to see
41:05
Speaker 1: more platonic relationships and love, and we need to see
41:08
Speaker 1: relationships between queer people, groups of queer people, and then
41:11
Speaker 1: queer people and straight people. There's a lot, there's a
41:15
Speaker 1: lot of things at play here. Um. And one other
41:19
Speaker 1: thing I read in a lot of articles is it's
41:22
Speaker 1: really difficult to know what a creator intended, and so
41:26
Speaker 1: it's really hard and less the creator flat out says,
41:29
Speaker 1: oh I never meant for this. Can it's hard to
41:34
Speaker 1: say what they originally met. And there's also the aspect
41:41
Speaker 1: of that that who gets to own, like if if
41:46
Speaker 1: if I want to see de c l like, is
41:49
Speaker 1: that that my paracative? Um? And it's that explicit representation
41:56
Speaker 1: is very very important. But that comes up a lot
42:00
Speaker 1: whether or not queer baiting is as big a thing
42:04
Speaker 1: um on the argument around like some people think it
42:07
Speaker 1: doesn't exist at all. Um. Right, I think where I've
42:10
Speaker 1: landed is it is this sort of like taunting of
42:17
Speaker 1: I don't know tauntings right word, but of companies knowing
42:21
Speaker 1: what they're doing but never intending to have that payoff.
42:25
Speaker 1: So I remember when Solo, a Star Wars story, came out.
42:28
Speaker 1: In the trailer, there was just like some shot that
42:31
Speaker 1: made you think, oh Lando and Han are going to
42:33
Speaker 1: get together and then you see the movie and you're like, no,
42:35
Speaker 1: there's just nothing they're really other than Landover who have
42:39
Speaker 1: sex with anybody, um or anything? Right, Millennium Falcon Uh
42:48
Speaker 1: so that kind of thing, right. I feel like at
42:50
Speaker 1: least somebody made a calculated decision to include that and
42:55
Speaker 1: sort of get points for being more progressive and then
42:59
Speaker 1: had no intention of ever actually doing it right. And
43:03
Speaker 1: it wasn't until recently that we see healthy relationships instead
43:08
Speaker 1: of the again the trope of a gay man obviously
43:11
Speaker 1: going after every heterosexual man and making this whole like
43:15
Speaker 1: predatory line, and you know, instead of seeing actual healthy
43:19
Speaker 1: relationship once again, where you know, you see just friendship
43:24
Speaker 1: and it's uh, it's about time that we see that
43:28
Speaker 1: level and yeah, coming out as hey, yes these two
43:32
Speaker 1: are together. Yes these two discovered that they actually are
43:35
Speaker 1: in love even though they didn't know it at the beginning.
43:38
Speaker 1: Why can't that happen instead of it being all hidden
43:41
Speaker 1: and cloak and dag or type of situation? Right? And
43:45
Speaker 1: I think I would go at least in my opinion,
43:48
Speaker 1: when I think of creerbating, there is a level of
43:51
Speaker 1: mocking to it too, like, oh, well, you're just reading
43:56
Speaker 1: too much into this, right, and then that could goes
44:00
Speaker 1: straight into you just putting a gay person in there,
44:02
Speaker 1: so he's going to be the gay sidekick. We're gonna
44:04
Speaker 1: a person of color in there, that's a person of color,
44:05
Speaker 1: that's just a sidekick. She's just the byline um and
44:09
Speaker 1: obviously gets the secondary whatever. So if there's a guy,
44:12
Speaker 1: you know, I love the stories where there's two guys
44:15
Speaker 1: and the guy who's the cast off goes with a
44:17
Speaker 1: lesser friend. I don't love it. I'm being sarcastic, but
44:22
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, that's kind of that whole level,
44:25
Speaker 1: and it's kind of like, uh, that was unnecessary and
44:28
Speaker 1: it's not it's not necessarily what you want to see
44:30
Speaker 1: as a representation, and what what's the point of this? Right?
44:34
Speaker 1: And and I know we recently released the classic about
44:38
Speaker 1: the barrier gaye trope, and a lot of that is
44:41
Speaker 1: intertwined in this whole conversation of well, here's a gay relationship,
44:47
Speaker 1: but it never ends happy happily one of them dies,
44:51
Speaker 1: and it's usually not has developed at all. I know
44:56
Speaker 1: that one hundred ALEXA pledge that comes up and in
45:00
Speaker 1: that conversation all the time. So that's also related to
45:03
Speaker 1: this of We'll give you this queer relationship, but only
45:07
Speaker 1: for a short time. It's not gonna end happily, right
45:11
Speaker 1: enjoy Yeah yeah, be grateful. Uh yeah. So clearly a
45:18
Speaker 1: lot to say around this, a lot of debate happening,
45:21
Speaker 1: which I think is good. I'm glad we're having those
45:23
Speaker 1: conversations and we need to keep having them. Um And
45:27
Speaker 1: we would love for you listeners to share your thoughts
45:31
Speaker 1: about any of this. Also, I would love any I'm
45:34
Speaker 1: somebody who, even though I don't ship things, I like
45:36
Speaker 1: to find the most kind of out of I would
45:41
Speaker 1: never pictured this couple together. I like. I like finding
45:45
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So if you gotta have any
45:48
Speaker 1: interesting ships you want to tell us about, please let
45:50
Speaker 1: us know. You can email us at Stuff Media, mom
45:53
Speaker 1: Stuff at i heeart media dot com. You can find
45:55
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at stuff I ever told you are
45:57
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks always to a
46:00
Speaker 1: super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks to you for listening.
46:05
Speaker 1: Stephane never told you this. Protection of I Heart Radio.
46:07
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio is the I Heart
46:09
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
46:11
Speaker 1: favorite shows,