Latest / Math Therapy / What neuroscience tells us about who can & can’t do math w/ Hillary Mastarciyan

Transcript

What neuroscience tells us about who can & can’t do math w/ Hillary Mastarciyan · Math Therapy

• 0:03
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Neuroscience and education, I want them to be best friends.
• 0:07
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I would love to see neuroscience more recognized in the classroom.
• 0:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I struggled with math my whole life.
• 0:12
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I still struggle with math?
• 0:13
  Hillary Mastarciyan: If you gave me a math test right now, I probably wouldn't do very well.
• 0:16
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But, I learned neuroscience regardless of being good at math.
• 0:21
  Hillary Mastarciyan: it's possible.
• 0:21
  Hillary Mastarciyan: anyone can be a math person.
• 0:23
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 0:23
  Hillary Mastarciyan: If there's something you wanna learn, don't let something get in the way of it.
• 0:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Math Therapy.
• 0:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: I am your host, Vanessa Vakharia, and today we are asking a question I've been wondering about a lot lately.
• 0:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: What if the reason kids struggle with math isn't about teaching at all, but rather about what's happening inside their brains?
• 0:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what actually goes on in there when a child sees a number for the first time, or tries to make sense of a plus sign, and why does that process break down for some kids and not others?
• 0:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: I spend all day talking to educators about strategies, pedagogy, differentiation, the teaching side of math, but I do think we're not borrowing enough from psychology, cognitive science, and neuroscience.
• 1:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've always said that.
• 1:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: We know how to teach, but do we actually understand what's happening in a student's brain when they're learning, and why the curriculum can move so fast that the thing they finally understood yesterday is already gone by the next class?
• 1:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, today's guest, Hillary Mastarciyan, is a PhD student at Toronto Metropolitan University, studying numerical cognition, the cognitive psychology of how we learn math.
• 1:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: She also happens to be a former student of mine from The Math Guru.
• 1:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's right, I tutored her through high school math, and now she's the one teaching me about the intraparietal s- wait, the intraparietal sulcus.
• 1:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, wait, don't press skip.
• 1:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's just the region of the brain Hillary calls the"sweetheart of math", which lights up when you process numbers and magnitude.
• 1:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Don't worry, we're gonna tell you all about it.
• 1:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: This conversation lit up my brain in so many ways.
• 2:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hillary explains why math might be harder to learn than reading, because unlike language, we don't use math symbols in our daily lives, and mapping all those abstract symbols to meaning under a fast-moving curriculum is genuinely difficult for kids.
• 2:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: She also shares research showing that boys and girls do not differ in math ability, but girls feel measurably less comfortable in math spaces.
• 2:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And also, the toys kids play with at age two might have more to do with their math identity than any gene.
• 2:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the thing that floored me, a new meta-analysis from her lab found that a teacher's math anxiety does not transfer to students, but a parent's math anxiety does.
• 2:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which, if you think about it, makes a ton of sense and is probably very relatable for many of us, but we need to talk about it because everything on the internet tells us the opposite.
• 2:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know you're already thinking about your own math anxiety, or your kids, or that parent who says,"I'm not a math person" in front of their child over and over again, so send them this episode right now before we get into it.
• 3:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 3:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Welcome to the podcast.
• 3:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Thank you for having me.
• 3:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I...
• 3:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you're in...
• 3:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're in the place where we tutored you.
• 3:13
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yes.
• 3:14
  Hillary Mastarciyan: this is one of the only...
• 3:15
  Hillary Mastarciyan: and we'll get into this later, but this is the one of the only places that I would've, like, survived high school math, so-
• 3:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God thank you.
• 3:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And t- okay, so let's just get right into it.
• 3:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are you doing?
• 3:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I am starting my PhD, but what I study...
• 3:30
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, so what I did my master's in was kind of, it was psychology, but it was kind of like math education, numerical cognition, which was more cognitive psychology, and developmental psychology.
• 3:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what is the thing you are talking about right now or thinking about when it comes to math anxiety?
• 3:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So I don't specifically study math anxiety, myself.
• 3:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I do more, like, math ability, early learning, like, early predictors of succeeding or struggling in math, but we do have people in my lab that focus specifically on math anxiety too.
• 4:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 4:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you said this is, like, a combo of developmental psychology and- Yeah cognitive psychology?
• 4:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 4:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I actually wanna talk about that.
• 4:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, we...
• 4:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: W- I've spoken to so many people who have studied and do work in math education from the education perspective.
• 4:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's really funny because when I wrote Math Therapy- one of the things I start the book by saying is that I don't think we are borrowing enough from fields like psychology- for example, or cognitive psychology, or coaching or like- Yeah any of those things.
• 4:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't think we're borrowing enough knowledge from those fields that have already researched that stuff, that know how like- we work, how we learn, that kind of thing.
• 4:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't think we're making use of that in education.
• 4:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think when you go to an education program, you have a couple of courses on like a psych thing here, on like Maslow's hier- hierarchy and like that's kind of it.
• 4:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas I actually think it would be so interesting to hear from your perspective what kinds of things you are learning when it comes to math learning- from that perspective.
• 5:02
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, and so that's a really good segue.
• 5:05
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So we do numerical cognition or math cognition.
• 5:08
  Hillary Mastarciyan: We use both of the terms interchangeably.
• 5:11
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And I mean, like myself, my lab, my supervisor, but also just the field of math cognition.
• 5:16
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And it's different from math education because we study like, we call it cognitive mechanisms of learning math- Oh my God or learning in general.
• 5:24
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So
• 5:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: like- I'm like already drooling.
• 5:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what does that mean?
• 5:27
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, like what's going on like in terms of perception and cognition when you're doing something like math, as opposed to everything that's being learned in the classroom, being taught by teachers, what's going on with your peers.
• 5:40
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So it's different from the actual education side of like the curriculum.
• 5:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: it's more about these like almost basic science concepts of cognition.
• 5:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so like what's going on in your brain or what are you processing cognitively when you're doing math?
• 5:56
  Hillary Mastarciyan: We're not, like, studying, like, what's going on in the classroom-
• 5:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes
• 5:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but that's something that I'm really interested in.
• 6:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I'm interested in, like, the, the intersection of both.
• 6:04
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So, like, I like learning about cognitive mechanisms.
• 6:07
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I like studying them.
• 6:08
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I like researching them, and by that, I mean, like, what's going on when you're learning numbers for the first time, like when you're- Like in
• 6:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: a student's- Yeah mind.
• 6:16
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:17
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Okay.
• 6:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Got it.
• 6:18
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But I'm also interested in, like, what's actually being taught in the classroom, especially, like, in Ontario,'cause I live here.
• 6:24
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, I wanna know what's going on with kids here.
• 6:27
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, what are they actually learning.
• 6:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So yeah, it's a mix of both.
• 6:30
  Hillary Mastarciyan: My interests are a mix of both.
• 6:32
  Hillary Mastarciyan: My lab is more cognitive in general, so a little bit less math education, but I'm kind of a mix of both.
• 6:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, Tell me some of the findings.
• 6:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because, you know, again, this is such a cool intersection because I spend so much time talking to educators about, like, different strategies that work in terms of how to solve a problem or how to understand a concept or how to explain something, but now we're kind of getting the other side of you being like-"But let me tell you what's going on in a student's actual brain." And obviously, all brains are different.
• 6:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, totally.
• 6:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: But can you tell me some key findings, like things that you just find interesting-
• 7:03
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah,
• 7:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: so- that educate, that you're like,"Teachers should know this stuff"?
• 7:06
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, so, there's actually a conference, it's like a small conference that brings together, like, educators and researchers.
• 7:13
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's called Assessment and Instruction in Mathematics, and that's, like, a really great place where there's lots of teachers, educators, policy people all together-
• 7:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: All together, yeah
• 7:24
  Hillary Mastarciyan: with the researchers.
• 7:24
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's beautiful.
• 7:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which, like, we all need to learn-
• 7:25
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's beautiful
• 7:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: from each other,
• 7:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: yeah.
• 7:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's only really in, I think, in Ontario or in Canada, but it's a good group.
• 7:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 7:31
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but back to what you're saying, the, the key findings and what we think are cool.
• 7:35
  Hillary Mastarciyan: there's, like, a part in the brain, like a region in the brain that we call, like, the sweetheart of math.
• 7:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: what?
• 7:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell me more.
• 7:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: yeah, it's like, it's called the intraparietal sulcus.
• 7:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: it's kind of at the back of your brain, kind of a little bit deep in.
• 7:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: and that's, like, the magnitude processing, number pro- processing, like, region in the brain, and there's obviously other regions in the brain that are important for doing math, like fact retrieval or problem-solving and things like that.
• 8:02
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But this is the kind of the region in the brain that they've found that, like, is, like, the sweetheart of number.
• 8:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: So hold on, because you know how we always talk about, like, are people born with, like, brains that are better at math?
• 8:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you have thoughts on that?
• 8:17
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I don't think there's, at least from my, like, basic understanding right now still as a grad student, I don't think there's- I don't think it's fair to say that people have better- Yeah brains for math versus not.
• 8:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's literally what all the research shows.
• 8:30
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 8:30
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I think, like, there's a lot of different factors that play into whether or not you're gonna succeed in math, unrelated to, like, biological reasons-
• 8:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like, what are some of those factors?
• 8:40
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So there's things like home environment factors, like your classroom environment, things like math anxiety or math avoidance, so internal things.
• 8:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But also, yeah, there, there have been studies that have shown various different, like- kind of results as to, like, what these regions in the brain are doing for, you know, some students that might be struggling in math versus others that are succeeding.
• 9:03
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, there's different patterns of activation, but they haven't really kind of like tamped down which one is better at math or...
• 9:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I don't think that's as easy of an answer.
• 9:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like you said, there's, I think one thing you just kinda said that I wanna like touch on is you were like,"There are so many different areas that we would look at for math." Totally.
• 9:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because, like, sure, maybe that, the sweetheart of math part of the brain.
• 9:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry, what was it called?
• 9:24
  Hillary Mastarciyan: The intraparietal sulcus.
• 9:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 9:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 9:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 9:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 9:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: That thing.
• 9:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: The IPS.
• 9:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: The IPS.
• 9:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kinda sounds like an IPA, which is a beer.
• 9:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'll remember it that way.
• 9:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: IPS, you said that has to do with, like, magnitude?
• 9:33
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like- Magnitude processing.
• 9:35
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So, like, can you-
• 9:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like size?
• 9:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, size, quantity.
• 9:39
  Hillary Mastarciyan: can you compare like a set of dots on the left and the right of the screen, and which one has more?
• 9:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And we can manipulate that by, like, the size of the dots, how close they are together, how far apart they are, things like that.
• 9:51
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So, like, the magnitude or symbols too.
• 9:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So, like, an Arabic digit or, like, a verbal number word.
• 9:57
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like saying three versus, like, seeing a three symbol.
• 10:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: those, like, you see activation in this part of the brain when you're doing math.
• 10:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 10:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 10:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: So there's that.
• 10:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then, like you just said, there are other areas that are responsible for things like fact retrieval-
• 10:11
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, totally right?
• 10:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which is a part of math.
• 10:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Exactly.
• 10:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I, and I think-
• 10:13
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's a step
• 10:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: it's a step.
• 10:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, and I think we do have to, I think it's really important to, like, as we're talking about this, to be like this is why we can't just be like,"Oh, there's a..." Like, we can just see in the brain if you're good at math or not.
• 10:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like-
• 10:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Of course not
• 10:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: and, and part of the thing is, like, math encompasses so many things.
• 10:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, fact retrieval is important.
• 10:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: So is magnitude processing.
• 10:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not like one is more important than the other.
• 10:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly.
• 10:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's why it's called mathematics with an S, guys.
• 10:38
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly.
• 10:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 10:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: So loving.
• 10:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 10:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So this is...
• 10:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So now I wanna actually talk about, struggling students, right?
• 10:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 10:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: You were saying there are things we can kinda see.
• 10:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I have a lot of educators that are struggling with their struggling students, right?
• 10:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: A lot of people historically struggle in math.
• 10:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: First of all, do you have an opinion or, or a, a fact-based opinion- as to why that is?
• 10:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Why students struggle?
• 11:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: With math more than, like, other, like, why is math such a thing?
• 11:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if not, no worries.
• 11:04
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Um, a good example, and this is kind of like what I study in terms of, when I say early learning and early predictors of, math ability, is, when a child first sees, abstract symbols, and that, I mean, like Arabic digits or, like, the plus sign or the division sign, it can be difficult to learn all of these abstract symbols and map them all to these different meanings, right?
• 11:27
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, when you're learning how to read or how to write, obviously children can have struggles with these things as well, but we talk every day.
• 11:35
  Hillary Mastarciyan: We communicate with one another, right?
• 11:38
  Hillary Mastarciyan: so we learn how to read and we learn how to write.
• 11:40
  Hillary Mastarciyan: We learn how to speak and communicate with one another.
• 11:43
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I think math is a little bit more abstract, even though there's math everywhere.
• 11:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: People don't realize that, I feel like, enough.
• 11:51
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so when you're mapping these symbols, there's a lot of meaning-making you have to do, right?
• 11:57
  Hillary Mastarciyan: You have to, like, learn that an addition means this, but in some languages they explain addition differently than in English, right?
• 12:06
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, it's, very different how, math is taught in the world as well.
• 12:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so I think, struggling can also come from, the early basis of, like, struggling to make meaning out of, like, everything and, like, hold that meaning in your, in your brain.
• 12:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, it's interesting what you say.
• 12:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's like yes, we do math every day, but we do not use math symbols every day.
• 12:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't- Like, let's say you go to the grocery store Totally like, fine, maybe you're adding, but you're not actually using a plus sign.
• 12:33
  Hillary Mastarciyan: No, and not everybody in their head is visualizing, like, 30 for my bread because we're...
• 12:40
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's expensive now.
• 12:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: We're in economic crisis.
• 12:43
  Hillary Mastarciyan: $30 for my bread plus whatever.
• 12:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, they're not- What bread are you buying for$30?
• 12:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I don't know, like, Summerhill Market bread.
• 12:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, 100% Summerhill Market, okay.
• 12:50
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But, not everybody's visualizing, like, 30-
• 12:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah
• 12:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: plus something else, right?
• 12:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so I think, having to map these abstract symbols to meaning and then remember all of them especially when the curriculum moves quickly, is, difficult to do.
• 13:05
  Hillary Mastarciyan: That's my best guess.
• 13:06
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I don't think it's...
• 13:08
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I think there's a lot to the story.
• 13:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I don't think that's the full story, but I think that has to do with it.
• 13:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: That has to do with it.
• 13:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, it's funny, I actually, I, I don't know much about this, but somebody just sent me a paper they wrote on learning math as a second language.
• 13:21
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Interesting.
• 13:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, that would be really interesting, right?
• 13:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 13:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because it's yeah, if you look at math as a language, first of all, you would teach it differently.
• 13:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: You would teach it the way you teach a language.
• 13:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then that just makes me think of, of, of the symbol idea.
• 13:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 13:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 13:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Of like when you're learning a language, a lot of it is about the symbols.
• 13:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's about the lettering.
• 13:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 13:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's about, like...
• 13:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 13:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Totally.
• 13:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Very interesting.
• 13:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: So let's talk about struggling students.
• 13:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who is struggling in math?
• 13:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are there specific people who are struggling in math?
• 13:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: within the field there's, different researchers that believe different things, or kind of different camps, let's say, or different theories.
• 13:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: some researchers believe that it's, math specific, numbers specific, you know, issues.
• 13:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So again, this kind of, mapping problem an inability to, like, really grasp certain types of math concepts.
• 14:04
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So again, that's a great example.
• 14:06
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, really struggling to map symbols and make meaning of symbols.
• 14:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Other researchers think it's, working memory issues or attention issues, that contribute to math.
• 14:15
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But it might be contributing to overall, like you're also struggling with reading or struggling with writing.
• 14:20
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And it's related to, you know, having working memory deficits or attention deficits, things like that.
• 14:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And that kind of contributes.
• 14:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And then more recently, kind of the view that I like to take is that it can be a mix of both.
• 14:34
  Hillary Mastarciyan: you can struggle with, you know, specific executive functions like working memory or attention, or being able to, like, switch from, like, this task to another task.
• 14:43
  Hillary Mastarciyan: If you think about writing, doing your homework and going from geometry to arithmetic and, like, immediately switching, like, that can be hard to do.
• 14:51
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But it can also be, like, numbers specific.
• 14:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, you might struggle more with geometry than you do with algebra or something.
• 14:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 14:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I think it could be a mix of both.
• 15:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm curious because I feel like I hear so often, like we run a tutoring center- as you know.
• 15:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I will hear parents all the time be like,"My kid is getting As in everything except for math." That'll be like the thing they say because a lot of parents are very grade focused.
• 15:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, fine.
• 15:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I, I wonder if you have any insight as to that.
• 15:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, are things like working memory, for example, would they more significantly impact math learning than other subjects?
• 15:27
  Hillary Mastarciyan: That's a good question.
• 15:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I-
• 15:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And we don't have to know.
• 15:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm just curious.
• 15:30
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 15:31
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I mean, when you learn about executive functions in general, they say they're for higher order processing in general.
• 15:37
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So like problem solving- and critical thinking abilities, you need executive function or like executive functioning abilities to do these things.
• 15:46
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but the math portion is really interesting, and I think that's like somewhere I wanna go further, like, in my research, is like understanding, like why is math difficult when you could be, you know, excelling or doing, you know, very typical in reading or science.
• 16:04
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Especially science, because science is kind of also the intersection at times of like math and other worldly like related things, right?
• 16:12
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So I don't really know why kids struggle the most, but I think that's why, this is what I study.
• 16:17
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 16:17
  Hillary Mastarciyan: 'Cause I'm like,"Why is it happening?"
• 16:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 16:19
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Because math is also so important, right?
• 16:21
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So why is it happening with one of these really important skills?
• 16:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: 100%.
• 16:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you said one of the things you're interested in is really early learning- right?
• 16:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And early predictors of like, you know- Yeah would you say early predictors of math ability, early predictors- Yeah of performance, identity?
• 16:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Math ability, performance, like I kind of use those words interchangeably.
• 16:39
  Hillary Mastarciyan: They're not completely interchangeable, but yeah, like, um, when you're in kindergarten and you're learning math, or grade one, and it's like very early basic math, are you struggling, are you succeeding, and why?
• 16:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what have you found?
• 16:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, those are my basic interests, but my master's was actually using like educational data, and that's not...
• 17:00
  Hillary Mastarciyan: it's early learning-'cause it's grade three, grade six, grade nine, but it's not the first time you've ever like- Right gone to school and heard about math.
• 17:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but that's what I wanna continue in my PhD, is like the very early learning, so like two to five or two to six, where like you're in preschool or you're about to enter kindergarten, but you haven't got there yet, and the only experience you've had with math is at home.
• 17:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 17:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: I...
• 17:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what are you gonna look, like what do you wanna find out?
• 17:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I wanna do a couple of different studies.
• 17:31
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I, I wanna do like a neuroimaging study where I can, you know, look at the like cognitive processes of early learning.
• 17:38
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So, you know, sitting down with kids and, and seeing their familiarity with math even just like things like how many blocks are there versus how many circles or things like that, and use neuroimaging tools to like look at the cognitive process behind that.
• 17:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but then also other behavioral studies, so like- Just looking directly at performance.
• 17:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And it'd be very interesting to do a longitudinal study where, like, you look at this really early performance, and then you see how they're doing in grade six or something
• 18:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you see if, school actually ruins math for them forever?
• 18:08
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, like exactly.
• 18:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, I'd love to see that.
• 18:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But, it's pretty hard to
• 18:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: do What kind of math are kids t- at that young doing?
• 18:15
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I- in kindergarten?
• 18:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah
• 18:16
  Hillary Mastarciyan: they're learning, shapes.
• 18:18
  Hillary Mastarciyan: They're learning names of shapes or colors they're not doing the math that you're then getting homework for.
• 18:25
  Hillary Mastarciyan: they're familiarizing them- themselves with numbers.
• 18:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: They're learning that, you know, five is bigger than three.
• 18:32
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But what does five mean?
• 18:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right
• 18:34
  Hillary Mastarciyan: and they're learning to count.
• 18:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So like, early learning is just familiarizing yourselves with numbers.
• 18:39
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And the interesting part is, they learn them non-symbolically, so it could be like one swig jug-
• 18:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, yeah, yeah
• 18:46
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Versus like the l- the number one The number one,
• 18:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: yeah
• 18:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And like, having to make a, like a mapping relationship between that.
• 18:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, I know that we're sitting in two chairs, but if we had a two-year-old here They might not understand that we're sitting in, this is two chairs.
• 19:00
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And that also can mean the letter, like the letters that make up the word two.
• 19:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 19:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: I see what you're saying.
• 19:06
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 19:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's really interesting.
• 19:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's funny'cause I was just talking to a parent- as you saw, about, I hear this all the time too.
• 19:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, she was like,"Oh, my son is like naturally good at math- and my daughter kind of struggles," and this idea of like natural ability.
• 19:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I always say, I'm like,"But you have to remember, natural ability, this thing we're calling natural ability isn't like you just like popped out of the womb like- No knowing stuff." I'm like,"It has to do with such early socialization."
• 19:30
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Of course.
• 19:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 19:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's like what toys are they both playing with?
• 19:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what is their environment?
• 19:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, who are they hanging out with?
• 19:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: What kind of messages are they getting?
• 19:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm actually curious if you have a response to that idea of like, you know, because you'll hear people say all the time,"Well, I raised my kids the exact same," or you know, this kind of thing.
• 19:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's like- But, yeah what are the little factors we're not thinking about that might influence their math ability later on?
• 19:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: The biggest one that everybody always thinks of is toys in kindergarten, and even at home.
• 19:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: boys are usually playing with blocks or trucks or cars, and those are like inherently spatial toys, so they're learning about space early.
• 20:08
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And, girls are often playing with little kitchen sets and dolls.
• 20:12
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I mean, not, I don't know what actual two-year-olds are playing with now.
• 20:15
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But I don't know any two-year-olds, but-
• 20:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know what you're saying
• 20:18
  Hillary Mastarciyan: specifically.
• 20:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like the- They're not always.
• 20:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, exactly.
• 20:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: But traditionally, if you go to a toy store and you look at the aisles- Yes,
• 20:25
  Hillary Mastarciyan: exactly
• 20:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: you will see gender toys in this way.
• 20:27
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yes.
• 20:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas the boys toys prioritize spatial awareness and mathematical-
• 20:32
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly
• 20:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: um, performance way more, I will see.
• 20:35
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly.
• 20:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I will see that all the time.
• 20:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly.
• 20:37
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So then we can confirm here that you're still seeing that that toy difference.
• 20:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So that's the big one, but as you're mentioning, like there are these sociological things happening at home to socialization, that I feel like- They're kind of inherent to our society, so it's hard to just say"Oh no, I raised my children the exact same." well everybody's biased to some extent.
• 20:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So you can't be like completely unbiased and say they're raised exactly the same.
• 21:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: People are- Well, it's also like-
• 21:04
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah
• 21:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: who are they play- like who are their friends?
• 21:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Exactly.
• 21:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who are they playing with?
• 21:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are their friends' houses like?
• 21:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like-
• 21:08
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly
• 21:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think I really want people listening to understand that this idea of natural ability, what we are, what we are conflating with early nurture is turning into a nature argument.
• 21:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 21:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's like-
• 21:22
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Totally
• 21:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: there is nurturing that is happening early on and it's like all the subtle, it's like death by 1,000 paper cuts, even though it's not death.
• 21:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like that sounds really bad.
• 21:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: But do you know what I mean?
• 21:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like-
• 21:30
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But almost like the downfall it feels like.
• 21:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 21:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like in what way?
• 21:34
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, well, I, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this on the podcast yet, but like the research does show that boys and girls don't differ- Yeah in their math ability.
• 21:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I had, I had a- Like- a neuroscientist on the podcast- Okay, perfect who studies gender and the brain.
• 21:50
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 21:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they literally did th- say that.
• 21:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 21:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like there aren't- But
• 21:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: thank you for re- we could restate this a million times Thank you.
• 21:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 21:55
  Hillary Mastarciyan: There aren't differences like in their actual performance, but girls struggle more with feeling like they can like be comfortable in a math space.
• 22:05
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 22:06
  Hillary Mastarciyan: and I actually learned about that before I even like met my supervisor and got into this field.
• 22:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like the first paper I wrote that kind of had to do with this was about girls not feeling comfortable in stereotypically kind of like boy gendered classrooms, science classrooms and math classrooms, and it was a, like a lit review on girls' enrollment in like science classes or math classes, and they were asked things"Would you be more comfortable learning in this classroom or this classroom?" And it would show different pictures of like a stereotypical science classroom or a math classroom or a typical one.
• 22:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: What was in the picture?
• 22:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like describe.
• 22:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like it would be like what you would picture like a s- like- All the things that we think of, of science and math, like the same way...
• 22:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: There was a study, like the draw scientist study.
• 22:56
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 22:56
  Hillary Mastarciyan: For so long it was a man, and it's changing.
• 22:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But- Okay,
• 22:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: but tell us about the study for people who don't know
• 23:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: there was a study that was done, I'm sure it's been replicated multiple times,
• 23:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's been replicated for math, too.
• 23:06
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yes.
• 23:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was like draw...
• 23:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry, now I'm just speaking over.
• 23:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, no, no,
• 23:08
  Hillary Mastarciyan: no, no.
• 23:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, you say, you say.
• 23:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Basically, it, it asked young children to draw a scientist or draw a mathematician, like from what they think it would be in their mind's eye, and so often it's a man or a boy versus- Yeah, like they would
• 23:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: draw
• 23:22
  Hillary Mastarciyan: a man a, a girl or a woman.
• 23:22
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 23:23
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 23:23
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And that kind of showed the, the example of inherent socialization of like, we see boys and men in these like math and science spaces as opposed to girls and women and, and what the differences are here.
• 23:37
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But again, like the, the important take home is like they're not actually performing differently.
• 23:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's maybe their comfortability in the space.
• 23:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, no, You mean they weren't actually performing differently as in like their grades weren't different?
• 23:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, their grades.
• 23:48
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 23:48
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, in terms of like their actual g- their letter grades or their test scores, whatever, like the, it's not that girls are actually worse at math or anything like that.
• 23:56
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 23:56
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's just like the socialization.
• 23:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and like girls will pref- will say they feel worse at math when they're getting the same grade as like a male counterpart.
• 24:06
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly.
• 24:06
  Hillary Mastarciyan: This is what we talked about before.
• 24:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you know this is what my master's thesis was on?
• 24:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 24:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, okay.
• 24:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes, I do.
• 24:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, this is actually what I- Yeah literally everything I did, and so it's really, it's actually really cool to hear you kind of doing something similar a decade later.
• 24:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's funny that you're still finding that.
• 24:21
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, it's, it's fun, like to...
• 24:23
  Hillary Mastarciyan: That's why I'm like, you're like,"Why do you wanna do a PhD?
• 24:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like what, like makes this your passion?" Like- What
• 24:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I said to her was,"Oh my God, why the fuck do you wanna do a PhD?
• 24:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: That sounds like so much work that I would never wanna do." That was, were my exact words.
• 24:37
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I just want to continue the work that like-
• 24:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah
• 24:40
  Hillary Mastarciyan: your type of master's thesis was doing.
• 24:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I wanna just continue studying this, and it's a pretty small field.
• 24:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Whenever I tell people I study math, they think I'm doing math.
• 24:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 24:48
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And then they like, that's really also funny, they then like put you on a pedestal of like,"Oh, well, you get a, you're having a PhD in math." no, I don't have a Ph- I'm not getting a PhD in math, I'm getting a PhD in psychology, and I study how people learn math, and they don't really ever understand that.
• 25:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: They should still put you on a pedestal.
• 25:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 25:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: But this is my whole other argument- that people think you're smarter than everyone else if you can do math suddenly.
• 25:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly.
• 25:11
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But, a w- the point is, like I'm interested in continuing this research,'cause it's really important.
• 25:16
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And like kids are always gonna be learning math.
• 25:18
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And kids have been struggling for a very long time so why are they struggling?
• 25:24
  Hillary Mastarciyan: That's what we're, like trying to get to.
• 25:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we don't have an answer right now, but we have some ideas.
• 25:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: We have lots of different ideas, that are contributing, like s- again, small pieces.
• 25:34
  Hillary Mastarciyan: and the, the next step of that is, like getting these answers to the educators, and getting educators involved in, like what we learn so that can be translated into the classroom.
• 25:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there anything you've learned thus far that- you think would be really'Cause most of the people who listen to this podcast, not everyone, but most of them are educators.
• 25:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there anything you want them to know?
• 25:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: you're doing a good job, and you don't and you don't get enough credit for everything you do.
• 25:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my gosh.
• 25:56
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Let's start there.
• 25:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Facts, that's so cute.
• 25:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Um-
• 25:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's true
• 25:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but what I also know based on, this is again kind of the math anxiety piece, is, a lot of educators don't often also feel super confident in their math abilities, and can be highly math anxious as well.
• 26:12
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so that can kind of translate, you know, in that piece as well of, like you're math anxious.
• 26:19
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I always hear, like, And I would love to hear if this is incorrect.
• 26:23
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, that- I'm ready.
• 26:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: That it's contagious?
• 26:25
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, math anxiety is contagious, can be contagious.
• 26:29
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But I mean more so, like, a lot of individuals are interested in doing, like, primary school or elementary school teaching because they're scared of having to teach, grade 12 math, right?
• 26:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can clarify this right now.
• 26:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 26:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 26:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So first of all, to teach high school math-
• 26:44
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah
• 26:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: you need to take math in university.
• 26:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 26:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it would make sense that- Yeah if you did not feel, great about math- you would not do that, right?
• 26:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: No.
• 26:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not like you're like,"Oh, I'm scared of teaching grade 12 math." You're like,"I have no desire to do that.
• 26:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't personally love math- Yeah or feel good about it, so I'm not gonna do that." Exactly.
• 26:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas an elementary teacher, okay, we're in Canada, so we're just gonna talk Ontario- Yeah, yeah Ontario right now, but this is, similar.
• 27:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 27:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's, adjacent across North America.
• 27:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: An elementary teacher does not need to take any university math.
• 27:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like, if you're an elementary teacher, you're expected to teach everything.
• 27:13
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 27:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 27:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, Math just being one of the things.
• 27:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it has...
• 27:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not like you go into teaching elementary school because you hate math.
• 27:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're like,"I wanna be a teacher."
• 27:21
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 27:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: "I have to teach a bunch of different things.
• 27:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I happen to not feel great about math."
• 27:27
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, and this is, a good segue.
• 27:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Just...
• 27:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, it's like I- I just don't like the framing.
• 27:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I...
• 27:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: This isn't you.
• 27:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think this is a good thing to clear up.
• 27:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not like people are like,"I'm becoming an elementary teacher because I hate math, and I don't wanna teach high school," right?
• 27:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: No.
• 27:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 27:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's, more like you really wanna be a teacher.
• 27:42
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 27:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: And, like, along
• 27:43
  Hillary Mastarciyan: the- And you wanna teach children.
• 27:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: that's the exciting part, like, early in your life when you can shape them.
• 27:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: 100%.
• 27:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and also, I have found, in my work, some of the best elementary teachers- are the teachers who they themselves have anxiety around math, have math trauma- they don't feel comfortable, and they want to provide a healing experience for their students.
• 28:03
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly.
• 28:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 28:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause they're like,"Oh my God, this happened to me," and so maybe they feel- Yeah anxious around math.
• 28:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: And sorry, I am gonna be a bit nitpicky because I just, I just said this in my last interview, and I'm always like,"Uh, math anxiety is not contagious." This is not a thing.
• 28:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: 100%, if you have, like, ick feelings about math- and you engage in certain actions as a result- yes, your students may also develop anxiety.
• 28:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Example, you're feeling anxious around math, you have your own math anxiety, and you get up in front of the classroom and you're like,"Guys, I hate teaching math.
• 28:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I just have to do it anyway, so let's just breeze through this unit." Like-
• 28:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah
• 28:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: yeah, that's gonna suck.
• 28:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: But also, guess what?
• 28:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can love math and be great at math, and also cause math anxiety.
• 28:43
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, this is a really great- Great.
• 28:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Got into it that's a really great point.
• 28:46
  Hillary Mastarciyan: There's,
• 28:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you.
• 28:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So- Not yelling at you.
• 28:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: No, no, no.
• 28:50
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Phenomenally put.
• 28:51
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But on that note, and I think teachers will like to hear this, and educators, there's some colleagues in my lab that are doing a meta-analysis.
• 28:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: So, like, they look through a million papers and they run analyses on all the findings of previous research.
• 29:05
  Hillary Mastarciyan: That's kind of like a very gist of a meta-analysis of a specific topic.
• 29:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And what they chose was math anxiety in, social relationships that aren't just yourself and your parent, or yourself and your teacher- Oh they did parents, teachers, and peers.
• 29:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 29:22
  Hillary Mastarciyan: This kind of"is math anxiety contagious" idea.
• 29:27
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And what they found is that math anxiety between the teacher and the student is not contagious, as you're saying.
• 29:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, a teacher's math anxiety is not going to pass on to a student.
• 29:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But what they found is that teachers' math anxiety has nothing to do with a child's math anxiety or ability.
• 29:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But they did find that, parent math anxiety does contribute to a child's math anxiety.
• 29:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: W- why might that be?
• 29:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I would assume it's maybe you're at home and you're doing homework with the parent.
• 29:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I don't know.
• 29:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: That's not the definitive answer, but that's my best guess.
• 30:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But it's in early, like, elementary years, and it becomes stronger, this, anxiety reciprocal relationship, in adolescence.
• 30:11
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so they're working on finishing, you know, that project, but that's a really exciting finding, that it's, it's not with the teachers, it's not specific with the teachers.
• 30:20
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But there is something interesting about, like, the parent-child relationship with math anxiety.
• 30:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: It would be interesting.
• 30:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Again, I'm certainly not an expert at this.
• 30:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've read a lot of this research.
• 30:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And because, like, I'm pretty invested in making sure teachers don't feel like they can't teach math because they're anxious about it you know, and I know it's actually a strength if they treat it the right way.
• 30:38
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Of course.
• 30:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: it, It's interesting what you say about the parents,'cause I've read that as well.
• 30:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've also read studies showing that, anxiety is more likely to be passed down to a student from a female teacher to a female student.
• 30:50
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Interesting.
• 30:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which is interesting, I know.
• 30:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: But again, I think those articles, when I actually read them- like, those headlines sound so glaring, and when I read- I know right?
• 31:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're like-
• 31:00
  Hillary Mastarciyan: They sound so glaring
• 31:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: and then I read them, and I'm like, hold on, that's not what it's actually saying at all.
• 31:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 31:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: It often has to do with how that anxiety manifests in a teacher's practice.
• 31:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Oh, yeah.
• 31:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 31:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then so, like, thinking about the parent stuff, it makes me think, well, if you're a parent, you're not just seeing your students for an hour in the classroom, right?
• 31:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like-
• 31:19
  Hillary Mastarciyan: You're seeing them at home all the time.
• 31:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and also they're seeing you live your life.
• 31:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like, let's say you're like- you know, like at the grocery store having a panic about like adding something together and not- like they're gonna be witnessing all those moments.
• 31:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause think about it.
• 31:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Forget math for a second.
• 31:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: I remember my friend saying she, you know, just had her, she had her baby like a couple years ago.
• 31:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: And she's deeply afraid, like my friend who's the mom, is really afraid of spiders.
• 31:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 31:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And she was like,"I make sure to never freak out when there's a spider around-
• 31:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah
• 31:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: because I don't want my child-"
• 31:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: To become afraid of spiders too.
• 31:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Exactly, because it's like it's not a teaching thing.
• 31:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like they're witnessing how you react.
• 31:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're watching.
• 31:55
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, and that's the whole like developmental psychology thing too.
• 31:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like your, your child is watching you and how you react, and that's, that makes an imprint too, right- Right on, on their development.
• 32:05
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so like the, the parent aspect is interesting And I think it still needs like a lot of research- Yeah to really validate, like you're saying, these like glaring headlines.
• 32:15
  Hillary Mastarciyan: there's a lot of work that still needs to be done.
• 32:17
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And like I said before, there's a lot of pieces to the puzzle that come to like a final result of why a child is math anxious or why a parent is math anxious.
• 32:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but I think it, it gives you a lot of like insight as to like why are people anxious about math, how can we change it, and like what's gonna happen coming next.
• 32:38
  Hillary Mastarciyan: You know what I mean?
• 32:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I think you're also highlighting such a good point that like we want this answer.
• 32:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 32:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: we want it to be"Oh, it's this thing.
• 32:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's that thing." Yeah.
• 32:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's no, there's a whole bunch of factors.
• 32:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like being like,"What made you the person you are today?" It's not like one thing.
• 32:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, you can't be like,"Well, and it was this one thing that happened to me once" and-
• 32:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah
• 32:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: that's just not how it goes
• 32:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: no, it's like all these things.
• 32:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 32:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it would like be, it's important for us to pay attention to all of these things- and not to neglect any of them.
• 32:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 32:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then like for those listening, w- think about what your role is in a person's life.
• 33:05
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly.
• 33:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 33:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, period.
• 33:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's like are you a parent?
• 33:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you a friend to someone who hates math?
• 33:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 33:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you their teacher?
• 33:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, are you a leader of a teacher who feels math anxious?
• 33:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like what are the things you can actually do?
• 33:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's in your control to do like right now?
• 33:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, is it you're gonna change the way you react when you feel nervous about math?
• 33:21
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 33:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: And instead of being like,"Oh, I hate this," you're gonna be like,"You know what?
• 33:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: This makes me uncomfortable-" Yeah"but I'm gonna try it anyways." Like-
• 33:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Definitely
• 33:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are there other things?
• 33:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there anything else you would like be like,"Hey, here's a thing that might make a difference for somebody in your life that feels anxious around math.
• 33:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's something you can do, listener."
• 33:35
  Hillary Mastarciyan: When I think about like advice to like a teacher too, but even to a friend being anxious about math, like I just think about hoping like I had had more time and more kind of acceptance around not understanding math.
• 33:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like when you were learning
• 33:50
  Hillary Mastarciyan: math?
• 33:50
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, when I was learning math, and I'm sure other students that are math anxious or struggling with math, like struggling learners in general, would just appreciate a little bit more time- and room.
• 34:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Do you know what I mean?
• 34:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 34:02
  Hillary Mastarciyan: To feel that, as opposed to it being this big like,"Okay, well you, you failed or you're very close to failed your unit test," and like,"It's over for you now." Like that's a crappy feeling.
• 34:15
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 34:15
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Right?
• 34:15
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so I'd, I'd say just like giving the math anxious people in your life like a little bit more room to feel that.
• 34:20
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 34:21
  Hillary Mastarciyan: jumping to conclusions or needing to find, like, an immediate solution.
• 34:24
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, just giving them a little bit of room.
• 34:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love that.
• 34:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 34:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah Just some room, some time.
• 34:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 34:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is also why I'm always like,"If you can, just give your students more time."
• 34:34
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 34:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: give them more time.
• 34:35
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah
• 34:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: literally, that can make such a big difference.
• 34:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: That idea of feeling pressured and feeling rushed- is, just not necessary.
• 34:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I know it's important to the, to the teaching curriculum in general, or it was because someone created it a long time ago.
• 34:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But, like, timed tests.
• 34:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I always struggled with timed tests.
• 34:51
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I had an IEP, so like...
• 34:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I think IEPs are all throughout North America, but they're like an- Yeah individual education- Yeah plan where students can, you know, have accommodations or things like that.
• 35:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And, I always had extra time for tests, which was helpful.
• 35:04
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But if I even think of it, like, from a cognitive psychology perspective, why not give someone a little bit more time to think through what they're doing as opposed to, like, you want the first thing off the top of my head to be written down because I only have, if we break it up mathematically, two minutes to answer this, like short word problem?
• 35:22
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, I think a little bit more time is just-
• 35:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah
• 35:24
  Hillary Mastarciyan: time in general.
• 35:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 35:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Time in general.
• 35:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Time.
• 35:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: So tell...
• 35:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, I wanna hear, I, like...
• 35:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't believe we waited this long into the conversation, but I'm like, how did you, how did you end up here?
• 35:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, given your math experience.
• 35:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, tell us quickly about your- Yeah math experience.
• 35:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Not quickly, sorry.
• 35:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, tell us.
• 35:37
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, my math experience was, tough.
• 35:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: We went to the same high school, guys.
• 35:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: We went to the same high school.
• 35:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: At d- at different times.
• 35:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And- Slightly different times.
• 35:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And Vanessa was, again, the only reason I truly believe that I passed math- Oh, that's so- at our high school.
• 35:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It was tough.
• 35:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but my, struggles with math were, like, immediate.
• 35:57
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, when I first started doing math when I was a kid, I had an IEP, like, probably the earliest you could ever have an IEP.
• 36:03
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Really?
• 36:03
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I don't know what it was, grade one.
• 36:05
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I had an IEP.
• 36:05
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I was in extra help for math, and it was helpful, don't get me wrong.
• 36:08
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I enjoyed learning in a smaller classroom with a few people, and having a little bit of extra time to do my work, but the curriculum moves so fast and you're learning so many things, and I think this ties nicely back to my point before of, we're learning a lot of abstract things.
• 36:25
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And you're expected to, like, jam it all into your brain, remember it, learn it very briefly, and then apply it everywhere.
• 36:32
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, I really struggled with, how fast the units moved.
• 36:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: and so, from then, I, I immediately was bad at math, and I was, I was bad at math.
• 36:40
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I wasn't...
• 36:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I was struggling a lot, at all of my schools.
• 36:44
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And I...
• 36:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I would always have help, but it, it helped me, but it, it could only help you so much if, you're struggling- by, by the way of the system and how fast you're going.
• 36:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, it's like things keep moving faster.
• 36:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Do you know what I mean?
• 36:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's like
• 36:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: you get one thing and then now you're onto the next thing.
• 37:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: That's always what it felt like.
• 37:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: and this is not a promo, like I actually found tutoring here to be so helpful.
• 37:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: We'll use it as a promo.
• 37:07
  Hillary Mastarciyan: No, I really did.
• 37:08
  Hillary Mastarciyan: it was so helpful.
• 37:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But the problem overall was that we would learn something here with one of your tutors, and I would feel really confident in it.
• 37:14
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 37:15
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And then we would, it would be gone-
• 37:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 37:18
  Hillary Mastarciyan: like by the ti- by the next class.
• 37:18
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And I was like,"Okay, well I was good at that one thing.
• 37:22
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I finally learned it." But so yeah, then when I got to university, I didn't have to do any math.
• 37:27
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And I met my supervisor, and I didn't even know before this that people studied math in this way, like in a cognitive psychology kind of lens.
• 37:37
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so I learned from her what she was interested in, and I thought like,"Wow, that really relates to what I'm interested in." I just didn't know that was a pathway for me.
• 37:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: and so I kind of went on my merry way Like, I knew someone who was finally doing work that I was interested in and that I felt like I related to.
• 37:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: before that, I just, like, didn't know it existed.
• 37:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: But tell us about her,'cause tell us why you related to her.
• 37:57
  Hillary Mastarciyan: my supervisor is great.
• 37:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: She's an assistant professor at Toronto Metropolitan University.
• 38:02
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Her name is, Maryah Sokolowski, and she loves math as much as we do.
• 38:07
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I like to call her the Legally Blonde of math.
• 38:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: The Elle Woods of math.
• 38:11
  Hillary Mastarciyan: If you're the Lady Gaga of math, she's the Legally Blonde of math.
• 38:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, that's a huge compliment to her.
• 38:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 38:17
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, she's really passionate about it and, finds a way.
• 38:20
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, you would never think, like...
• 38:23
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, you would, and I'm sure the listeners would, but to the average, like, general audience, people are not interested in hearing about math, and they're not interested in hearing about how we learn math.
• 38:34
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but we have a really great group of students in my lab that, that love learning about math and, like, answering these questions, and so it's just a great environment.
• 38:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 38:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: In every way.
• 38:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: So she's, she's fun.
• 38:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's the Elle Woods- She's fun, yeah of math in that.
• 38:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why don't you unpack that for a bit?
• 38:48
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I think it's the socialization thing that we talked about before.
• 38:51
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 38:51
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, she makes math feel...
• 38:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, if you identify as, like, a very girly person, as I think I do, like, math is, like, girly.
• 39:00
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Learning math is girly, and that's, like, one of the only other places I ever saw that aside from here.
• 39:07
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, math was, like, fun and interesting, and I never felt anxious coming here to learn math'cause it felt like a safe space.
• 39:13
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But in the classrooms, I never felt like it was a kind of safe place to learn math.
• 39:19
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, it felt kind of uncomfortable, and I think that's really changing for the new educators, but that was my experience.
• 39:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I always felt like I'm walking into the classroom, and I'm gonna be penalized for not knowing what's going on.
• 39:31
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so my supervisor, like, just brings this energy of, like, it's, it's fun.
• 39:38
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's not like the stereotypes of math being, like, very bland and logical always and nothing else.
• 39:44
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, logical can be cool.
• 39:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 39:46
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Logical can be exciting.
• 39:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And logical can be creative.
• 39:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly, and, and people don't think of math as a creative thing.
• 39:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Again, like all the, like, myths about math.
• 39:55
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But she just, like, brings a really different perspective to that,
• 39:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I do think it's important what you were saying, what I heard you say, and tell me if I'm wrong, is that idea that like, you had not experienced math as something that could also coincide with femininity.
• 40:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Oh, yeah.
• 40:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Definitely
• 40:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is what I found in my research too, is like obviously we're talking about, like, very, like a very heteronormative view of this entire situation.
• 40:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And we're talking about, like, historical traditional views.
• 40:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I do think it merits a discussion of, like math has been seen as so masculine.
• 40:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And when you were to backtrack to, I feel like maybe I interrupted you'cause I feel like this part got cut off where you were talking about, showing students pictures of what classrooms they would rather be in- and the research that you had synthesized, and how you were saying that, female-identifying students were like,"I don't wanna be in a classroom that feels masculine."
• 40:44
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 40:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I'll find those papers later, and I'll send them to you- Send them to my mail because I think they'd be interesting to include here.
• 40:51
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But yeah, girls or, like, people that identify as girls, like, were saying, like,"I don't, I don't feel as interested." It was like the enrollment thing of like a kind of faith of like- The participation yeah.
• 41:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But it was, it was for a study, but it was saying like, w- which one are you more likely to enroll in- To enroll for the next year?
• 41:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, okay, okay.
• 41:07
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And it, and the ones that, where it was like a more neutral classroom with less of these, like- like you're saying, these like kind of male-dominated-
• 41:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: What kind of stuff was in the pictures?
• 41:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what I wanna know
• 41:19
  Hillary Mastarciyan: they're like the typical like, like a green like tube, like a, like a...
• 41:25
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like a beaker?
• 41:25
  Hillary Mastarciyan: You know those science...
• 41:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 41:26
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah like the green goo coming out.
• 41:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 41:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And like science pictures on the wall of astronomy and stuff, and like those have just for so long been like related to men-
• 41:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes
• 41:37
  Hillary Mastarciyan: that the girls were more likely to pick the more neutral classrooms that didn't have...
• 41:43
  Hillary Mastarciyan: They weren't necessarily all pink and frilly or anything like that.
• 41:46
  Hillary Mastarciyan: No.
• 41:46
  Hillary Mastarciyan: They were just less, like I think maybe my best guess would be that the students felt like,"Oh, I've been in those classrooms before, and that's places where I haven't felt like I'm as good at math or as good at science.
• 41:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so I'm gonna pick the more neutral one,'cause I can see myself enrolling in that and maybe excel."
• 42:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: It is really...
• 42:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is so interesting,'cause this makes me think of the entire, like I don't know if you're on like Teachergram on like Instagram.
• 42:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: No.
• 42:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like there, or like the hashtag teacherlife.
• 42:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: that hashtag of classroom decor right now.
• 42:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what it looks like.
• 42:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh,
• 42:17
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I saw a video this morning.
• 42:18
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did you?
• 42:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like so...
• 42:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, it makes me think,"Oh my God." I've never thought about it this way, but like the new like trendy way to de- decorate your classroom- like especially for elementary and middle, is like it is almost li- like the only thing I can...
• 42:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: it's not feminine.
• 42:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wouldn't say like...
• 42:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: exactly.
• 42:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not frilly and pink and like traditionally feminine.
• 42:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I- I think maybe what you're saying by neutral is like, it's like aesthetic.
• 42:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 42:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so I'm just gonna say like it's aesthetic and nice looking.
• 42:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's different ways of doing it.
• 42:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 42:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: But all I can say is it does not look like a traditional classroom you would've seen in like a old cartoon or movie.
• 42:52
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And maybe that's it.
• 42:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe it's like...
• 42:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I've always been...
• 42:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's so funny.
• 42:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Another one of our students, Sarah Marks, she d- ended up doing her entire master's thesis on, the design of educational spaces.
• 43:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And she used The Math Guru, she used the studio as like a prototype of being like how the design of an educational space can like affect-
• 43:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Oh, yeah
• 43:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: the students in it, right?
• 43:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Totally.
• 43:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it w- I, I...
• 43:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Part of it was touching on that.
• 43:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was this idea of like, we're not just like making things look nice because like we wanna post it on Instagram.
• 43:19
  Hillary Mastarciyan: No.
• 43:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's because-
• 43:20
  Hillary Mastarciyan: It's to be comfortable
• 43:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: it, comfortable and safe spaces.
• 43:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because like traditionally designed spaces are associated with so much math trauma for so many kids.
• 43:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Exactly.
• 43:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 43:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 43:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like there's so much we've talked about.
• 43:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there something you wish teachers understood about the neuroscience of math learning?
• 43:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there anything that you're like,"I really want all teachers to know this thing, this fact that I've discovered?"
• 43:40
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I don't have any facts that I've discovered- off the top of my head.
• 43:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 43:43
  Hillary Mastarciyan: All I will say is neuroscience and education, I want them to be best friends.
• 43:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yes.
• 43:49
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so, like, I want them to be thought of together at times, not completely different.
• 43:55
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And, like, that's, like, a, a dream as, like, a young student and not, like, someone who's been doing this for that long.
• 44:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:02
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, I, I would love to see neuroscience be more recognized in the classroom, and I would love neuroscientists to try and reach out and make connections with educators more often than they do.
• 44:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love that.
• 44:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, we're starting that right now.
• 44:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 44:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I do feel like it can feel, like, intimidating to be like,"Let's learn about neuroscience and, like, cognitive psychology," and that, are we just- are we i- yeah.
• 44:23
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Well, I would say that's the same intimidation that you feel when doing math, but I think that- You can learn it.
• 44:32
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, it's, it's not impossible.
• 44:35
  Hillary Mastarciyan: The best way I can explain it is, like, I struggled with math my whole life.
• 44:38
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I still struggle with math.
• 44:39
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I don't call myself not a math person,'cause I don't think, I don't think I'm not a math person, because I study it now.
• 44:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 44:46
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But I don't think...
• 44:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Am I still good at math?
• 44:48
  Hillary Mastarciyan: If you gave me a math test right now, I probably wouldn't do very well.
• 44:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 44:51
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But, it's the same thing.
• 44:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I learned neuroscience regardless of being good at math.
• 44:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, it's possible.
• 44:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 45:00
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And so it can be daunting, because it's called neuroscience.
• 45:04
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 45:04
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And I think it comes with that, like, the same way, like, oh, if you have a PhD in math, you're better than everybody else at the party.
• 45:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 45:09
  Hillary Mastarciyan: That's not true.
• 45:11
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I think it's that same daunting thing, but we're gonna find a way to, like, make neuroscience less daunting.
• 45:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like TikTok.
• 45:17
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 45:18
  Hillary Mastarciyan: TikTok helps, for
• 45:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: sure.
• 45:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like there's a lot of good stuff on TikTok.
• 45:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 45:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just go over there.
• 45:21
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Definitely.
• 45:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 45:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're gonna wrap up with two questions I ask everyone.
• 45:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have 30 seconds.
• 45:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: A timed test, just so you don't- Okay whatever, I'm not timing you.
• 45:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: No, I, I, I'm long-winded.
• 45:30
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Go ahead.
• 45:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 45:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Question number one.
• 45:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Based on, like, your own experience, never mind your research, I mean, you can incorporate your research- Yeah but we know that you're not, like, an education expert.
• 45:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: But even, like, your own experience, if you could change one thing about the way math class, math...
• 45:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: ah.
• 45:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you could change one thing about the way a math class is taught, what would it be?
• 45:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: if you're struggling, I would like to see less aggressive, like, aggressively being penalized by teachers.
• 45:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Okay.
• 45:54
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I would like teachers...
• 45:55
  Hillary Mastarciyan: And again, like, I think teachers might be changing over time.
• 45:58
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I'm talking from almost 10 years ago now.
• 46:00
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah,
• 46:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: sure.
• 46:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: but, like, just, again, being kinder to your students that are struggling, because I think some are, but I don't think all are m- as kind as they should
• 46:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: be.
• 46:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just being kinder and not being-
• 46:10
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah, being kind and making room for people that are struggling.
• 46:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 46:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love it.
• 46:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number two, let's say someone was listening to this podcast, they were like,"Love her, she's so cool," whatever,"but no, this doesn't apply to me.
• 46:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not a math person," what would you say?
• 46:22
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I truly believe that anybody can be a math person.
• 46:25
  Hillary Mastarciyan: That's what I would say.
• 46:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God.
• 46:27
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Period.
• 46:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Period.
• 46:28
  Hillary Mastarciyan: If I had more time in my day to come back here and learn math properly, I would do it.
• 46:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God, you're invited anytime.
• 46:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Thank you.
• 46:36
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But-
• 46:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I also understand you don't have time for that
• 46:38
  Hillary Mastarciyan: you know what I mean?
• 46:38
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Like, if I had the time- Yes I would want to be more of a math person.
• 46:41
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Do I have all the time in the world?
• 46:43
  Hillary Mastarciyan: No, there's only 24 hours in a day.
• 46:45
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But anyone can be a math person.
• 46:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Yeah.
• 46:47
  Hillary Mastarciyan: If there's something you wanna learn, don't let something get in the way of it.
• 46:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Period.
• 46:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: The end.
• 46:53
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Period.
• 46:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you so much.
• 46:55
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Thank you for having me.
• 46:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: This was so fun.
• 46:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who would've thought this would ever happen?
• 46:59
  Hillary Mastarciyan: I know.
• 47:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: What a blast from the past.
• 47:01
  Hillary Mastarciyan: But it makes me so happy,
• 47:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: so.
• 47:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm so happy.
• 47:03
  Hillary Mastarciyan: Thank you for having me.
• 47:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, wow.
• 47:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: I am still not over the fact that the kid I tutored when struggling with math anxiety in high school is now getting a PhD in how the brain learns math.
• 47:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, if that's not proof that your math identity at 16 is not your math identity forever, I don't know what is.
• 47:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Two things that really stuck with me after talking to Hillary.
• 47:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: First, if you're a teacher who's been quietly terrified that your own math anxiety is harming your students, good news, it's not.
• 47:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let that guilt go, BB.
• 47:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: But if you're a parent, it might be less important what you say about math and more influential what they see you do when math comes up in real life.
• 47:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I say that so often, and I love that that was just reaffirmed.
• 47:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: We might not all be teachers of math, but we are all teachers of math attitudes.
• 47:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, the gender stuff really stuck with me, too, because even those of us who are deeply aware of this still miss it.
• 47:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: The toys, the classroom decor, the messages.
• 47:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's death by a thousand paper cuts.
• 48:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: By the time a girl is in grade six saying,"I'm not a math person", in the moment it's easy to chalk that up to her ability, but too often it's not about the math skills.
• 48:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's about whether she felt like she belonged in the room in the first place.
• 48:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's a very different problem, and it needs a very different solution, so I just want us to think about that.
• 48:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I am dying to hear what you guys think.
• 48:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did the whole, like, parent anxiety versus teacher anxiety thing surprise you as much as it surprised me?
• 48:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you think about the gender thing and the toys and the decor?
• 48:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what do you think about it all?
• 48:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there anything in this episode that made you go,"Huh, really?" Text the podcast by hitting the link in your show notes that says Text Us.
• 48:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced by David Kochberg, and the theme music is by our band, Goodnight Sunrise.
• 48:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: As always, thank you guys so much for listening, sharing, being a part of the community, all the things.
• 48:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if you want more Math Therapy, join our Facebook group.
• 48:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have over 500 amazing members.
• 48:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: All you have to do is hit the link in the show notes to join, and I'll see you next week.
• 48:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's going to be amazing.
• 48:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Have the best weekend.
• 48:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm, yeah.
• 48:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 49:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, bye.