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Rugby Direct - Bruce Sharrock tackles the biggest issues facing rugby · Rugby Direct

• 0:09
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  Speaker 3: Edb focom into Rugby Zurrit's special guests for us today
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: on the podcast Long Time player Agent. He's with the team,
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: Bruce Sharrick. Do you want to us what is it Bruce?
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  Speaker 3: About thirty years of player management?
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  Speaker 2: You make me so it is approaching thirty years.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I guess while before the game in New Zealand became professional,
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  Speaker 2: I had friends that were playing professional rugby league and
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  Speaker 2: I was the go to guy. Albeit didn't have a
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  Speaker 2: clue what it was doing, but it was for nights
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  Speaker 2: out in leather jackets. So we cracked on well before
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  Speaker 2: RUGU went pro in ninety six.
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  Speaker 3: Before we get into some issues around the game. I
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  Speaker 3: guess for our listeners, what does a player agent do?
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  Speaker 3: Because maybe they've got this idea in their mind that
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  Speaker 3: you sit there around the contract table every couple of
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  Speaker 3: years when the contracts up and you negotiate, But what
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  Speaker 3: are the day ends, day out of a player agent.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think everyone will have a different outlook
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  Speaker 2: on that. In the agency world, I've always been strong
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  Speaker 2: on the fact that our success is measured on their exit,
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  Speaker 2: in other words, how well we've prepared them for life
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  Speaker 2: after the game, because I think we're being honest. We
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  Speaker 2: all know that the game is short in an overall
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  Speaker 2: span of a player's life. So look for me, the
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  Speaker 2: contract negotiation, you look, it's critical because that's the I guess,
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  Speaker 2: the engine that makes the money that allows them to
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  Speaker 2: get on and do what they do. But I'll be honest,
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  Speaker 2: once it's done, that goes in the draw and a
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  Speaker 2: good contract's never seen. Okay, you just carry on and
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  Speaker 2: get on with the game. I spend the majority of
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  Speaker 2: my time with those top end players about preparing them
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  Speaker 2: with wealth creation, set protection, and just trying to get
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  Speaker 2: them out and get their heads around the fact. They
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  Speaker 2: had a conversation yesterday with an up and coming pro
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  Speaker 2: and said, it's the time you start to thinking of
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  Speaker 2: yourself as a small business. So every time we have
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  Speaker 2: a conversation, we'll be positioning you as a small business,
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  Speaker 2: and ultimately that business will close and we've got to
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  Speaker 2: think about the new business you'll open at the end
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  Speaker 2: of this one. So I think if that's always been
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  Speaker 2: my mentality, and when Craignis and I got together, we
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  Speaker 2: should it was two thousand and two, I think for memory, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: about two two we had a similar outlook and that's
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  Speaker 2: why we sort of got together, and it was about
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  Speaker 2: helping the player prepare for exit.
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  Speaker 3: Is that easy to have these conversations with players that
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  Speaker 3: are living in the moment and playing rugby, rugby league
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  Speaker 3: whatever it might be, at eighteen or twenty or whatever,
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  Speaker 3: and young age, and they're not thinking about the future.
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  Speaker 3: Is it easy to have the conversations.
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  Speaker 2: No, it's not. It's challenging. And there's all sorts of
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  Speaker 2: backgrounds that play the game right and some have a
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  Speaker 2: strong family network and support that understand that this is
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  Speaker 2: a small part of their life. Others it is the
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  Speaker 2: bill and end all, and it is the setting up
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  Speaker 2: of a family unit. And so I always say to them,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not your fan. You got enough of those, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to blow smoke up the proferbial I've
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  Speaker 2: gotta be honest with you and I'm going to try
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  Speaker 2: and guide you through this. So at times I may
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  Speaker 2: say things you don't like, but I always know this,
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  Speaker 2: I've got you back. So yeah, it's not easy, but
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  Speaker 2: one of the most insightful things that ever happened for me. Ironically,
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  Speaker 2: I look back and a guy called Nathan Wallace, a
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  Speaker 2: neuro scientist here in New Zealand. It was through a
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  Speaker 2: player association gathering here in Auckland, and he was talking
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  Speaker 2: about the development of the frontal cortexs and the reason
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  Speaker 2: we were having that conversation was that we were having
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  Speaker 2: these quite meaningful conversations with eighteen to twenty five year olds,
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  Speaker 2: but then to understand that frontal cortex is out for
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  Speaker 2: renovation for that period of time, and how we navigate
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  Speaker 2: around those conversations to ensure they're meaningful. The key reason
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  Speaker 2: at the time, my own son was at that age
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  Speaker 2: where I was going, this will make sense and it
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  Speaker 2: was a massive learning and I'd encourage any parent, let
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  Speaker 2: alone a football parent, to understand what's going on with
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  Speaker 2: your adolescent children because it helps parenting so so much.
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  Speaker 4: Or Bruce, you're in quite a unique position in that
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  Speaker 4: you swing across both codes rugby and rugby league and
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  Speaker 4: acting for some of the biggest names in the game
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  Speaker 4: like Roger two of us ask who's unfortunately had done
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  Speaker 4: his acl and that'll be his time and the Warriors
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  Speaker 4: come to a close. But if we look at a
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  Speaker 4: through the lens at rugby Union at the moments, what's
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  Speaker 4: your sort of top line thoughts on the state of
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  Speaker 4: the game in New Zealand. So, yes, there's been a
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  Speaker 4: lot of challenges, a lot of competition in that markets
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  Speaker 4: and there's a lot of moving parts. How do you
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  Speaker 4: assess where rugby is that in New Zealand? Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: Look, and I want to preface it with this what
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  Speaker 2: I wore comments on my thoughts, and it's not about
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  Speaker 2: paying out on rugby because I think rugby is the
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  Speaker 2: heartbeat of our country, has been and we all want
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  Speaker 2: it to remain that and grow again to that. So
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  Speaker 2: whilst some of the comments may appear to be critical,
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  Speaker 2: I think it's time that the game. And there's a
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  Speaker 2: global element to this because he's the rules of the game.
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  Speaker 2: But I just think domestically too, we need to start
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  Speaker 2: being brave and courageous and doing things we haven't done before.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I remember saying out of the Nike camp
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  Speaker 2: many many years ago, when I was in sports retail.
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  Speaker 2: In order to remain number one, you have to think
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  Speaker 2: and act like you're number two. I think Rugby and
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  Speaker 2: New Zealand for too long has thought and acted like
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  Speaker 2: it's number one globally, and quite frankly, it isn't at
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  Speaker 2: the moment. And so we need to take a good
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  Speaker 2: look and go what do we need to do? So
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  Speaker 2: look the state of the game. Geehere do you stay.
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  Speaker 2: Let's start with the game. I think the game and
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  Speaker 2: this is a global one. This is not New Zealand
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  Speaker 2: ultimately having control of the rules. However, they can tweak
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  Speaker 2: them for our game down here, you know, top of head,
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  Speaker 2: we need to make sure our fan is enjoying it.
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  Speaker 2: We're all probably rugby people sitting around the table. We've
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  Speaker 2: all got friends who have turned off the game. We've
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  Speaker 2: got friends that are watching the other code. We've got
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  Speaker 2: friends that just don't go anymore because it's boring. We've
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  Speaker 2: got to change that, guys. We've got to look at
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  Speaker 2: what the fan wants. And you know, some minor tweaks
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  Speaker 2: to the rules I think would help. And you know, again,
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  Speaker 2: there'll be guys sitting around pubs and ladies who've got
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  Speaker 2: some really cool ideas let's hear what they've got to say.
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  Speaker 2: One that I've always thought about is the Evanna dryl
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  Speaker 2: drives me crazy. You know, ten plays later you go
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  Speaker 2: back and you're back to where it is. Why can
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  Speaker 2: we not create a shot clock for twenty seconds and
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  Speaker 2: as soon as there's an advantage it pops up on
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  Speaker 2: the screen, the kids start shouting it down and the
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  Speaker 2: players have an opportunity. If you've got the ball and
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  Speaker 2: you've got the advantage, you got twenty seconds to maximize it.
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  Speaker 2: We'll kick the ball out, you'll get your penalty. Otherwise
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  Speaker 2: you play on and away you go. Just innovations like that,
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  Speaker 2: And I think with the other code, you're seeing annually
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  Speaker 2: changing rules to either speed up the game or to
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  Speaker 2: give the fan the experience that they want to. And
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  Speaker 2: I think we've got to sit around a table and go,
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  Speaker 2: how do we do this? How do we make it
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  Speaker 2: more exciting for our fan base? That game last weekend
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  Speaker 2: Chiefs fee Crusaders top draw stuff. Ye, okay, what happened
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  Speaker 2: in that game that we can get more of and
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  Speaker 2: start making rules that help us. That's the game itself,
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  Speaker 2: but because it's a workshop for a weekend with great minds,
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  Speaker 2: and great coaches. You know some of our past coaches,
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  Speaker 2: your Graham, Henry's, even your Rennies, your Hansen's. All these
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  Speaker 2: guys sit in the room and tell us what you
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  Speaker 2: would do. I remember having conversations with them about similar things.
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  Speaker 2: They've got the ideas we need to start lobbying because
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  Speaker 2: it's desperate times to make sure that in this country
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  Speaker 2: we remain relevant in the next two decades.
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  Speaker 3: It feels like from the northern Hemissy, the rules are
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  Speaker 3: passed down from above and it's just not suiting the
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  Speaker 3: game that New Zealanders want to see and New Zealand
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  Speaker 3: fans want to go and watch.
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  Speaker 2: At the moment, Yes, and I think there's a part there, Elliott,
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  Speaker 2: that we need to understand where we are in the
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  Speaker 2: ecosystem of the game, because quite frankly, the French think
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  Speaker 2: super rugby is crap. Okay, they don't rate it, they're
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  Speaker 2: not interested in it, They're just interested in taking our players. Okay.
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  Speaker 2: So we've got to understand that, and we've got to say, okay,
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  Speaker 2: how do we gain relevance and how do we lobby
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  Speaker 2: to ensure that the game globally is strong. Make the mistake,
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  Speaker 2: it's strong in France. Okay, it's a very strong competition.
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  Speaker 2: The UK is It went through a tough spelled post COVID,
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  Speaker 2: but it's starting to revive itself again, private investment with
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  Speaker 2: red Ball through Newcastle, et cetera. So yeah, we've got
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  Speaker 2: to make sure that we understand our place. And this
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  Speaker 2: is a thing. Don't sit on your pedestal thinking a
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  Speaker 2: number one and you're controlling the world. You're not. You
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  Speaker 2: once were such a dominant force that the all Black
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  Speaker 2: brand and the All Blacks could command and demand whatever
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  Speaker 2: they wanted. That's past. We need to start playing the game.
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  Speaker 4: What about things outside of rules leavers, that's the game here,
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  Speaker 4: could pull to drive fan interest, to put the fan first.
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  Speaker 4: Things like a draft model have been touted and largely
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  Speaker 4: dismissed to this point. Maybe trades within season, we see
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  Speaker 4: that in rugby league. What's your view on whether some
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  Speaker 4: of these things are viable, whether they could work, and
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  Speaker 4: how they could work, particularly within a super rugby context.
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  Speaker 2: Look the draft one. I smile because it'll be fifteen
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  Speaker 2: years ago. I remember talking to the administrators about a
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  Speaker 2: draft system, and simply because we need to give the
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  Speaker 2: fan and engageagement through MPC the other thing that I'll
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: come to that in the second. But the other thing
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  Speaker 2: that I observe is probably now nine five to ninety
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  Speaker 2: nine percent of all super teams have got their squads
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  Speaker 2: sorted for twenty twenty seven. If I was an MPC
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  Speaker 2: player and I'm playing for a professional career MPC for me, now, yes,
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  Speaker 2: they've introduced wider training group again. Now, but what am
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: I playing for? To me? You say, there will be
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: five spots minimum available to be announced at the end
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: of NPC via a draft system, and coming into the
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: NPC season, each franchise identifies what they're looking for for
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  Speaker 2: a tight forward, I'm looking for a lock proper, whatever
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  Speaker 2: it is. They're all known. The fan base then is
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  Speaker 2: watching MPC and every week the media, the marketing machine
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: of NZDR is talking about who's hot, who's not, who's coming.
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  Speaker 2: The talk shows again be about did you see the
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  Speaker 2: performance from that young kid midfielder. Surely he'll slot into
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  Speaker 2: the chiefs now and so on and so on, and
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  Speaker 2: you've got this thing. Then ultimately you have a draft
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  Speaker 2: day and you talk about and they're all there and right, yes,
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  Speaker 2: you're going here and you're going fantastic. Just try and
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  Speaker 2: create something for the fan And for the life of me,
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  Speaker 2: I can't see why we can't. I can't see why
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  Speaker 2: you can't do that. So ideas like that, you talked
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  Speaker 2: about mid season trades. I won't say daily, that's an exaggeration. Weekly,
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  Speaker 2: bi weekly. You're talking to regular league clubs who are
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: looking to move players, trade players, they've had injuries and
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: need someone and would they release them? Can we do
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: this deal? You get it through the Warriors media all
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: the time. You've got one team in this country, but
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: you're getting good news out of them about movements and
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: it creates great conversation for the fan base. And we
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: know what the Warriors fan base is doing. So we
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: have to start being more agile. We can't keep doing
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: what we've always done if we want to get a
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: different outcome. And I know that's a cliche, but my lord,
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  Speaker 2: we have to start. We have to start. I'm sorry.
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  Speaker 3: One of the things that's pushed back, I guess around
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: trades is that players wouldn't want to move mid season.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: You're in the NBA. It's very much a for example,
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: that the franchise has run it. And basically, if you're
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: told to move to Minnesota, you're doing it that day
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: and super rugbits sort of perhaps the other way around,
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: where maybe the players have more of a say. How
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: would players react to being told that extra the Blues
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: don't want you, the Honders have picked you up though,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: or the Western Force and you're going over there as
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: of tomorrow.
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  Speaker 2: Now. There'll be situations, Elliott, where it isn't feasible because
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  Speaker 2: you've got kids in school and you've got support networks
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: and it it's just not feasible. However, I was just
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: sitting with Liam having a coffee before had a call
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: from a regular league club wanting a player who's based
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: in Australia potentially to come across the ditch. Yep, he'll
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: move right because he wants to play. Yeah, and ninety
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: percent of them are there to do that, right, and
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: that is the Natrue job. If you had a call
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: from a either a sister station or someone else, so
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: you've got a bloody good opportunity, would you move, You
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: go home and have a conversation. If that's the case,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: we're moving, So yeah. Look, is it always ideal? No,
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  Speaker 2: But it's part and parcel of what being a pro
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: athlete is about. So I think you know again, it's
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: certainly worth trying, without doubt.
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: If we look at one of your areas of expertise,
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: the contracting model I guess of New Zealand rugby, and
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: there's a lot that goes into this centralized contracts. New
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: Zealand Rugby pays the players. We had Malcolm Gillies, the
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: Hurricanes owner on the podcast and he was very emphatic
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: about the need to change, about the need to privatize
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: super rugby clubs in order for them to be able
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: to pay their players have more control. Where do you
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: see that space. I guess central contracting has probably worked
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: from New Zealand rugby to this point, but there is
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: a there is a push for change. And then outside
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: of that contracting metrics around skys like for young Enough
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: for in his situation, Richie Muwong are coming back and
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: not being available for the All Blacks. So there's a
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: lot in that mix. But it's largely been the way
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: it's always been for a long time. If it was
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: to change or do you think it should change, and
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: how you.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Look, I'm anevocate of privatization. I'm an advocate of providing
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: true privatization, not partial like it is at the moment,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: you've got investors that are holding forty nine percent in
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: some cases fifty to fifty one. If you want to
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: if you want to engage with an investor, you need
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: to give them the properties to try and make a
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: profit and also then have sole control over their recruitment,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: their pathways, their depth charts and all the rest of it.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: And I think that's where you'll start to see I guess,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: some real meaningful recruitment development and all sorts of things
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: going on. So look, I think the time is now
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: to have this conversation about privatization and true privatization. What
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: New Zealand Rugby has to then step back and go,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: so what do we govern? What are we about? And
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: you know we talked about the rules. I think their
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: job is to make sure our product is alive and well.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Spend a lot of time lobbying up North, ensuring look
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: ensuring that it's all cohesive, that every franchise is ultimately
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: the All Blacks is our pinnacle side. They run that
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: they control that and everything should be heading towards a
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: dominant international side. So look, the conversation and Malcolm's a
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: good example, let's have it. Let's talk about how it
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: can work. But it will take New Zealand letting go
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: of some of the rains and particularly some of the properties,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: because if you talk to a franchise at the moment,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: they just can't make money. They can't make money unless
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: they win a final, and that needs to change. You know,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: if you look at the regular league clubs as an example,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: the NRL governs the game. The clubs run the day
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: to day business of their own fan bases, their fan
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: engagements and everything else, and whilst that our franchise is
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: doing so, they are hamstrung because of what they can
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: and can't sell, what share a broadcast revenue they get,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and all the rest of it. So yeah, I'm an
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: advocate of it. I think it's one of those bold
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: conversations that we have to have and we have to
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: genuinely sit down and say, you know, is there a
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: market for it? Who would invest? What we are seeing
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: globally is wealthy individuals or equity houses are looking at
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: buying sporting franchises. Is there a market here?
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Do you think that you get the sense there is
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: a market?
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  Speaker 2: There is, absolutely absolutely I do. However, the commercials have
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: to stack and that's where they've got to sit around
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: a table with New Zealand and go what are you
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: prepared to give up?
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  Speaker 1: You know?
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, that conversation has to be had without doubt.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: What about those There might be things you can and
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: can't say around them, but what's your view on those
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: individual situations for hang and or for potentially having a
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: change of heart wanting to assess the situation with his
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: Newcastle contracts? New rag be saying it's not our place
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: to intervene in the modern sporting world. What's your assessment
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: of that situation.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: It's a professional sport. It has been for thirty years
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: in this country. It's time to step up and start
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: treating it as a commercial transaction. Cards on table for
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: he has managed inside the business, not by me but
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: by a colleague and he's doing a great job of
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: this process. But New Zealand had the opportunity to contract
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: the player. What they put on the table was nowhere
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: near the match of what it was. His performance is
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: then ramped up and they've said we want to we
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: now want to hold him. That's fine, go and have
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: a commercial conversation with the people who actually wrap the
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: contract around him, so you can do a deal. The
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: cut and thrust of that is happening daily in rugby
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: league and other sports globally. So go and have the
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: chat even do it?
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: Do you think that'll be easier in a privatized world
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: because other than a governing body doing it, it's the
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: privatized Hurricanes versus Newcastle Red Bulls or for example.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: And that's one of the examples. You know, and you
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: hear it out of your local media. Here Kem George
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: is having conversations with Brisbane around Mitch Barnett's release and
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: there was a given a take and this is an
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: undertaking and they're deals. They're doing deals, and that's what
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: we need to get to in this world. At the
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: end of the day. The model in New Zealand rugby
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: has changed, where everybody that wanted to play or throw
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: an oval ball wanted to play. The code of rugby
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: union has changed. We have to get a lot more
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: specific about who we want. And the other one that
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: I'm strong on too is trade. To sweat your assets.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: In any business, if you want to make a dollar,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: you got to sweat your assets. One of your assets
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: are the players. There are players that you are not playing,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: paying too much on a global basis, allow them to go,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: get a transfer feedback in, let them go trade work.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: That's what the rest of the world's doing. And you know,
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: I can hear the people in HQ going you You
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: would say that, Bruce, because you're always asking us for releases. Yes,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: because the player wants to go, but equally because their
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: future is somewhere else. Sweet your asset, get a transfer fee,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: repurpose that into pathways, competitions or development of young players
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: or fan whatever. Start working it. That's what I think.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: Do you think we're still tied to the contracts a
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: contracts sort of mindset in New Zealand? You know, whether
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: it's a not even just ruggy players, but a mortgage
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: or a car, you know, whatever, it might be, a
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: contracts a contract. We haven't quite moved on from that
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: mindset as a country.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: And you know, and some of that's nice to have
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: and honorable. You know, we live by the basis everything's negotiable,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: and yes, a contract is a contract, and I'm the
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: first to honor it and acknowledge it. However, I'm also
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: the first to go to the table and negotiate it
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: and say, hey, look, it's not working. How do we
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: get around this and those conversations, the need to be
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: more of them and people. Yeah, as I say, do
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: a deal, make it work for everybody. So yeah, without
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: getting specifics, there are many examples where commercially you'd stand back,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: be given the facts and you wouldn't be involved in coe.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: So why wouldn't you do that? You know? And yeah,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: I just think it's a maturity thing. We need to
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: we need to stop thinking the way we used to
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: think and go, Okay, we're in a new world and
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: we need to really start to reimagine what we're doing here.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: What about the Richie Muwanga case? Is coming back for?
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Was it a year?
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: Eighteen months? Contractors used on rugby the Crusaders Canterbury but
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: it's going to have to play provincial rugby and unless
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: there's an injury, won't go to South Africa?
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: What you on that? Look, it's been well documented by
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: people with a greater qualification than mine in the game.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: I Karen read or saw him talking about it. It's
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: a no brainer. For God's sake, let's mature ourselves and go.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: He's been brought back for a reason. We shortened that position.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: He's will class and he should go straight in the rules,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: change them. You have the ability to change them. It's
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: your game. You do what you want. It doesn't mean
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: you have to do it or set a precedent. That's
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: the rule for him. The next one may not get that.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: We're about winning and winning at the top end to
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: make sure that the All Blacks remain number one in
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: the world or sorry, regain number one in the world.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: So do it? Why not? I don't see the downside
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: of doing it. So, yeah, look that one not to
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: shake my head and just go that's so disappointing that
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: you even think that way. It's an opportunity to go, hey,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: we've thought about this, this is what we should be doing.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: And dare I say, your fan base, we'll go, we
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: understand why you do that.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, does all that jersey still hold the lure that
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: it once did fuel clients?
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: No? No, And I think that's another realization that needs
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: to be understood, is that you know, I won't mention names,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: but I could speak to twenty four year old all
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Blocks at the moment that are talking about how do
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: we what happens after the World Cup? I mean that
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: was never the case. Once you got that jersey, you
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: would stay the year. You'd have to get the chisel
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: to get it off your back. You'd never give it up.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: And that's part of the generation as well. It's not
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: as slight on the jersey or slighting. That's part of
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: the generation that we're dealing with, and so and the
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: other part of that is you're seeing players choose the
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: other code by choice because it's shinier and it looks
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: great on television and the opportunities appear to be there
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. So no, it doesn't,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: and we need to try and get it as strong
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: as it once was. But yeah, the world has changed,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: is that?
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I was gonna say with the generation and perhaps
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: a cash first, were sitting yourself up mindset rather than
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: a legacy sort of with a black jersey and playing
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: one hundred Testory country. Is that's what you're ever going
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: to change back? Or is this is the way it's
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: going to be for the for the foreseeable future.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: I think it's the way it is for the foreseeable future.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: You know, it is the generational thing. You'll have it
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: inside your own operation. Here, You've got twenty three year
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: old interns that all of a sudden want to be
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: the GM, they want to be the CEE, or they
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: want your job, they want Liamb's job, to be head
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: a sport.
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: It's the age of instant gratification.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is what it is, guys. We're not
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: going to change it. And I don't want to sound
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: like an old fart, but the reality is that's what
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: we're living in and our footballers are no different. They
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: want it now. You've got eighteen year olds playing rugby
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: league that I think they should be playing a n
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: RL but to kill them, but they think they're ready
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: for it, so that, you know, that's just the world.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we've got to we've got to start working
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: with it and start thinking a little bit differently about
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: it too. And I think that you know, that sort
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: of leads on to things like path way. These young
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: people want to know what they're doing when they leave
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: school and one of the issues with rugby union at
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: the moment is a very muddied pathway for a young
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: player coming out of school. What do I do next?
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: You go into an academy? What if I don't maybe
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: the academy, what happens with me? And you know, we
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: need to give it real clarity, whereas the other code
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: have a very clear pathway, you know, with the if
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: you're talking New South Wales for a second, your Herald
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Matt's into your EASTU ball, into your Jersey flag, into
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: reserve grade, into your top grade, and you can start
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: at seventeen all the way through to twenty one and
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: if you're any good, you'll leap frog it. You lack
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: at hlo siemers of the world of nineteen all of
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: a sudden their household name. Yeah, so they've gone from
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: fleag bomfa, you know. So it's nice and clear. We
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: need to do that for our kids in rugby union too.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: You talk about those eighteen year olds, I guess even
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: younger than that, what's the bad all light for hearts
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: and minds at that age? Are kids in high school
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: deciding wat's his pathway? And the contracting model or the
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: approach is quite different as well. Isn't rugby league tend
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: to go younger, which potentially raises a bit of a
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: moral question where rugby is quite hands off and will
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: go later in their schooling years and potentially miss that talents.
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: So there's a bit of a juxta position there.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there is and yeah, look, I guess at the
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: heart of it, rugby league is more aggressive in terms
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: of its recruitment. Why because they've got, as I said
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: to you, Harold matts eschueball in fleague teams, So they're
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: recruiting for those teams as much as recruiting for their
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: in round teams. So they're looking for talent. So if
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: you're a sixteen year old and you can play Harold
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Mattz the next year, which is under seventeen's, they're looking
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: to fill that roster. So they've got an opportunity for
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: you straight away. What that means for rugby though, that
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean they're going to play rugby League forever. Treat
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: it as a high performance experience and they can experiment
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: with an game. But yeah, look, we need to we
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: need to understand that. I guess for the first time
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: for me, probably in fifteen years on back down in
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: that cold face talking to school kids again, because when
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: I was I took the little sabbatical in the racing
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: world for three years. But I've gone back down south
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: and you know, I'm going to school games and I'm
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: talking to school kids again. Look, I'm not guiding them
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: to rugby league. I'm letting them know what they want
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: to do. I've got the I guess fortunate position where
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I can understand both pathways and I look at them
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: and say, which one would you like to choose? A
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: lot of them are choosing now rugby league more than ever.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: You know, it was a rarity back in the day
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: that rugby league would even figure in the thinking. I
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: go back to someone like a Liam Squire. I looked
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: after Liam and I remember canber Raiders were super keen
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: on him. He toured with it for two minutes. Really,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: he would have been a great league by the way. Yeah,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: you know, La always said to me because I looked
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: after both he and Humy and Hammy was playing league
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: in Sandia kIPS and about playing league. But it was
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: really I told him had to lose about fifteen kilo
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: to play league, by the way. But what I'm saying
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: is they were rarities. Now you know last year Harry
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: and She out of Tasman, a top being player. He
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm the Antichrist down there because I pulled
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: him out of rugby. He wanted to go to the
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: league and regretted the fact that he actually went through
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: the rugby pathway Salmucky Salmucky built for rugby league, wanted
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: to play rugby league. Tom Perkins out of Nelson College
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: number eight, six foot five, that he wanted to play
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: rugby league. I didn't tell him to go and play
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: rugby league. He got the interest and explored it and
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: went that's what I want to do. So that are
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: just recent examples of that, and there's more and more
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: of them every day because it's exciting. They're playing in
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: a meaningful league for a period of the year. And
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: by the way, Harold Matts is finished by sort of
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: inter feb sorry May early May, so I think still
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: participate in first of them programs all the rest of it,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: and the progressive schools are allowing all that to happen.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: So it's embracing it, but then getting really sharp when
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: you recruitment, identification and gone. Rather than everybody who wants
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: to swim will come in the pond if they make
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: the other side will take them. Identify what you need
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: in your depth charts and go get it. Yeah, that's
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: what I think.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: We Hadstid Lancas from the program a few weeks ago
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: and he was talking about that that pathways and he
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: admitted it was an issue because you've got Auckland, you've
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: got the Blues, you've got North Harbor, just an Auckland alone,
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: maybe counties as a lock. Northa might come down and
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: you've got four different teams and for a player trying
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: to get to the top, they can't see that pathway.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: Whereas for Melbourne Storm scouts standing on the sidelines at
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: your high school first often game and talking to you,
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: you can see the pathway through playing for the Melbourne Storm.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: And so is it fundamentally broken and us on the
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: way we get to talent to the top.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is it broken? It's fragmented. And you know, again
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: this is just top of head thinking. But if we
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: could come up with it, and this comes down to funding,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: but if we could come up with a competition, for
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: example post the first fifteen year, so for your current
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: in school guys, and I'll use the use of franchise teams.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: So let's call it a seventeens or a nineteens franchise
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: team and they play. They culminate then aligned with MPC
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: a seventeens and nineteens franchise tournament with a semi and
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: a final aligned to the semi in the final of
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: the NPC. It gives them a really meaningful experience in
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: school and then out of school. Beyond that they then
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: progress into or MPC wide a training group, into super rugby.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: But at least they can start to see a clear pathway.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: But we've got all of these provincial unions all trying
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: to produce academy players for why what for let's get
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: the best, Let's do it right, bring them in and
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: you're still going to get What We've got to be
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: careful is you don't want to kill the club scene
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: and all the rest of it. And again these are
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: top of head and thoughts. But sitting around, I'm sure
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: we can come up with something, you know, start to
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: repurpose the money we have and I'm going to use sevens.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Is seven still relevant? Is it producing anything for us
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: to be the best team in the world or is
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: it now a separate athlete game that's run under a
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: different banner. But what's it costing us? It would we
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: be better off repurposing into a competition like I just
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: described or something similar. So it's sitting there and going right,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: We've only got this much money, so I get that
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: money drives everything. What are we getting the best outcome
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: and return on investment for our money at the moment,
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: So things like that need to be discussed in my view.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: I've touched a fair bit on the challenges I guess
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: of recruitment and retention from pre professional inter professional. I
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: think it's about thirty five players you might be across
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: it and what they might be more leaving to rugby
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: teams in New Zealand alone. What's your assessment of the
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: production line, particularly given the the intense competition at the
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: bottom end and the depth, the overall depth of New
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: Zealand rugby, I think.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: There's major concern. And again anecdotally, when your school boys
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: team gets beaten by eighty five points by Australia, which
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: was last year, that speaks to some of the depth
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: that we're looking at here. Hey, it may be in
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: a blip, it may be a year where it just
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: didn't click that for that side. But there's still some
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: good football, isn't it. My hunch and probably more than
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: hunch is the competition for talent is now proliferated. You know,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: you've got basketball, which is also one of the highest
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: growth sports in our country, and when we're looking for
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: our not necessarily two meter pluses, but our big men.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: A lot of them are playing that game. So again,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: let's get down in the trenches, roll up our sleeves
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: and win the battles and provide pathways and you know,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: persuade these guys that this is a game they should
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: be playing and give them reasons to do it. Now,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: that's different thinking for rugby because it used to be
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: everybody wanted to be in all black, so they'd all
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: just line up and the ones that didn't make it
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: would go and play basketball or go and play rugby league. Well,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: it's changing even the Pacific Islands. You know, Rugby League
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: now is very very active in recruiting direct from the
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Pacific Islands. We've inherited so many quality players through the
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Pacific Island base. You know, guys, let's wake up because
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: you're going to find that flow of talent is not
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: coming here either, and they're not going to our schools,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: which is where they've all come out of the islands
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: and into some of our major schools. So you know,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: it's coming from everywhere. We need to say, right, let's
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: get in roll else leaves up and make sure that
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: we're winning the battles we should be winning. And just
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: on that one about school. You know, another thing is
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: zeal On Rugby could and should do the visa issue
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: for these talented young rugby players that come into our schools.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: The issue we have is when they come out of
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: school is they don't have a visa to stay in
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: this country. So what they've got to be is either
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: full time rugby players, of which NPC is not sufficient,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: and they don't even get NPC contracts. Academies don't allow
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: it because they can't pay them enough, so they've got
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: to go somewhere else. We'll go back to the Islands,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: go on lobby for a dozen special purpose rugby visas
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: with the government to build depth and allow these quality
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: kids who have been through our school system, given so
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: much to the game at school level and then have
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: to bugger off. The French are taking them, Rugby League's
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: taking them. So you know, just start having those conversations
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: and helping in that space.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: How often are player is talking to you about the
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: eligibility and playing for the All Blacks from abroad? Is
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: that a conversation you have a Wriggle league. This is
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: a topic the always in the news around whether the
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: All Blacks will select from a board. Is this something
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: that players are asking you about. No, they're not.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: I think their mentality is more. You know, we talked
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: about it earlier, the value of the black jersey. They're
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: prepared to walk away from it because they know it's
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: not really feasible to play for it while you're away.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: I think turn that around, you know, I know there
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: is a school of thinking that thinks you'll get an
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: avalanche of players just leaving the country. Hey, the world
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: market has only got so many spots available, guys. They're
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: not all going to go and play in France with
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: the UK or Japan. I've got some limited numbers that
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: they can select in those teams too, So I don't
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: see that happening. I don't see an avalanche of talent.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: But even then, you can still play with your rules.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, Australia has got sixty caps and you're eligible
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: do whatever you want. That works the model for us,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: But for the life of me, when you're also financially tapped,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: why would you not let the top five ten twenty
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: players out free up the best part of I don't know,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: ten million, fifteen million on your p and l and
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: repurpose that into pathways, comps and retaining some of your
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: under threat talent. That's another one. The world wants certain widgets,
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: they don't want all the widgets, and we're paying, in
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: some cases overs for positions that the world doesn't really want.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Your loose heads, your hookers, your open side flankers, your halfbacks.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: The world doesn't really chase them less that absolute will
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: best and hence the reason we see the majority of
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: those positions hang around in our country. The other model
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: we have, which I shouldn't say this because they advocate
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: for players, but the more tests you play, the more
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: money you get. And that's great to a point. But
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: when you played one hundred tests, I guess what must
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: mean you're in your thirties. Your performance is coming down
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: the other side, Rugby league and other sports recognizes, you know,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: how long the longevity you have to play that game.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Start thinking about the way we contract, the way we model.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: You know, if it's not working, release them. Speak to
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: the agent. I mean it messagest today from an Australian
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Raga league club, certain player. We're then talk about it.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: We need Tom out of our top thirty next year.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: We're going to start working, they're going to release them,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: We're going to try and find them a home or
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: do a deal, give somebody to go and get another
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: dev spot or something like that.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: How much is the reading, Yeah we touched on the stalel,
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: but how much is it just down to our national psyche?
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: Is that we just we're in a small country on
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: the other end of the world, and we are very isolated,
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: and we don't you know, money makes the world go around,
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: but we don't often see those big deals happening with
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: the business table, whatever it might be, and we're just
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: sort of whether it's you know, infrastructure in the country,
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: whatever it might be. We're sort of just stuck in
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: our own little bubble.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: And yeah, you're one hundred percent right, Elliott and some
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: of their thinking. But you know, a little phrase of
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: mind that I've used with them for a long time.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: You can't use your micro rules and expect to operate
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: in the macro world. So you've got to start thinking
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: if you want to be part of the ecosystem globally,
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: start thinking like it. And hey, you may have to
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: recruit people into your business that are from that outside
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: world to start shaking up the way in which you
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: do business here, you know, and dere I say, the
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: cut and thrust of the other code is doing that
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: every day, and not just I keep referring to the
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: other code being rugby league, but there are sports all
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: around the world, in NBA, NFL, all those sorts of things.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: It's the same thing. That's the way the sporting world
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: has matured. And we're thirty years in in rugby, it's
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: time to take another leap and go right. We're into
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: a you know that that brings for discussion. Is super
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Rugby the right model going forward?
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: That's another one for discussion. Is that doing the job
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: we want it to do?
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Are we getting the crowd engagement as our TV audience
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: growing declining? What's happening? Do we need to go back
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: to the tribalism of MPC? I don't know. Have five six, seven,
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: eight teams pro? What will that funding cost? What does
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: that do? What does our broadcaster want all of that stuff?
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Is there something we need to be brave and courageous
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: right now? We can't sit on our hands because our
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: relevance is being challenged.
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: What we've seen witness the boom around the Warriors and
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: It's not necessarily comparing apples with apples because they are
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: a one club, one nation team, but there's clearly a
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: cultural movement and part of that success. But the Warriors
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: have always had those bolted on fans. What are they
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: doing well and how are they engaging people? What have
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: you witnessed both within the club and as a sport
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: that rugby league is getting right.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Look Cam Georgia, no personally, he was my chair when
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: I was at New Zealand Racing and Cam is an
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: extremely innovative thinker. But one of the things he recognized
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: straight away the fan drives the club and so ensuring
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: that they've got the best social media people available to
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: him to push out their content to engage with their
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: fan base was critical. The next step in all of
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: that was to make sure that the fan experience come
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: game day was super exciting. And I think we'd all
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: agree that going to a Warriors home game and even
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: now some away games, if you're put in a Brisbane
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: the other day, is a great experience. The kids are
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: loving it that you know, the music's going, the lights
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: are going, flames are shooting, there's stuff going on, and
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: I know rugby's trying to up the ante. Even Auckland
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: FC have made a real impact in that space. So
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: the real I think has been a real focus on
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: customer first, mentality and fan engagement first and foremost, and
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: then clearly teams success as just the cream on the cake,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: because team success will come and go. There are no
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: real dynasties in the world of rugby league. I mean,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: Penrith has been exceptional and doing so. Melbourne Storm has
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: been perennial, top two, top fours, but most of them
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: come and go because their salary cap actually works. So
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: that's what I see. I see that happening. I see
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: them really treating their fan at the front of everything
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: they do. And then you know they're clearly doing a
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: great job with their coach appointments, with their idea appointments,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: and they're getting good depth charts. You've now seen good
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: performance on field as well.
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: We've covered a fair bit today. But if if we
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: bring it back to rugby, and he's Rugby's Gone new CEO,
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: Steve Lancaster, if you could go to him with a
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: blank sheet of paper and say these are the three
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: major changes you need to make to repurpose rugby to
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: re engage fans. It's not broken, but clearly some changes
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: need to make. What would be your top three line
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: things and in terms of big shifts that we could
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: make now, yeah, I would.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: The first one I'll talk about is fan engagement. I
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: think everything we have to do in the game is
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: about fan. Without the fan, you don't have a game.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what you do. So look at everything
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: you're doing and at the top of every whether it's
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: conscious or subconscious, is the fan of beneficiary of that
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: decision and does that enhance the experience for the fan?
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: And will there be a positive reaction to it. That's
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: everything you're doing, So make it one of your key
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: mentors that whatever you do, is that good or bad
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: for the fan. That would be the first thing. The
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: second thing I'd talk about is ensuring that we're getting
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: depth in our player base and therefore your pathways need
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: to be sorted out and you need to look at
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: and I know funding is a challenge, but you need
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: to look at are you getting banged for buck with
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: where you're spinning at the moment, because I think you
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: are getting beaten too the drawer with the other code
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: at the moment, and a lot of it's to do
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: with that nice clear pathway that they have and the
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: opportunity they're offering these young people. So I'd be saying,
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: you need to fix the pathway stuff. And look, I
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: heard some just a couple of days ago, the zeal
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Rugbies come up with it with an app to help
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: them id regionally all the top players at school level,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: et cetera. They feed and they can monitor it and
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: fantastic to hear. Okay, so there's possibly work going on
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: that we're all unaware of, but we need to fix
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: that part of the game. Yeah, Look beyond that, I
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: think you then look at the privatization and say, you know,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: have we got our model right? Central contracting has served
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: us well, but it's a new world. Do we need
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: new resource Do we need basically ownership that at whatever
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: that i'll call it franchise level is And whether or
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: not Super Rugby is that model, I'm not sure. But
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: let's have that conversation and bring them in as true
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: partners into that and that problem or they probably be
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: my top three top head that I'd focus on.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: It's a pretty good place to leave it, with plenty
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: for our listeners to ponder. As a result, of that, Bruce,
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: thanks so much of your time, and perhaps look forward
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: to having you on again sometime down the track, and
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: maybe these things have been implemented we can talk about that.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much, guys, I really pretty enjoyed it.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Cheers for more from News Talks b Listen live on
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
• 43:32
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