Latest / The LIVing Room with Liv Harrison / Why "It's Okay" Isn't Enough: The Catholic Fix for a Divided Church | Jonathan Lewis

Transcript

Why "It's Okay" Isn't Enough: The Catholic Fix for a Divided Church | Jonathan Lewis · The LIVing Room with Liv Harrison

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, one of the problems we need to speak to is this toxic polarization and division within the church.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Toxic polarization is a sin.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Name that, say what it will be what it is.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: So like unity is the plan of God and diversity is the plan of God because you can't be in communion with yourself.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: As Augustine said, become what you receive.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: If we're going to receive the body of Christ, then we got to be the body of Christ.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: How are we cultivating the right type of practices that allow technology to be a gift and the blessing that it can be?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: To me, it's about the human person, but there's also things I think are just closer to intrinsically bad or certainly intrinsically dangerous.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: In real life, I think we try to figure out how do I swipe this person away?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's easier to deal with people in dismissive ways or flippant ways online, whether it's in chats or text messages or comment sections, because we're used to this sort of like quick and dirty approach.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: But you are explain to me what it is that you do in your company because you're new to me.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, I but y'all are kind of like new on the scene, aren't you?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Is this a new development, a new project, a new what do I say?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: What is it?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: Organization?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the uh all the above.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so there's a new project called the Communion Project.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, look at that.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that is fresh out of the packaging.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: In the last six months year.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, nice.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: So like new new this newborn.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's was founded by this Catholic men's religious order.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Called the Paulus Fathers or the Missionary Society of St.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Paul the Apostle, which was started the first Catholic men's religious order founded in the United States of America.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: I did not know that.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it has this really interesting, like American texture to it, because their mission was to evangelize this country.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Which is different than like the Jesuits or Franciscans or Benedictins that started, you know, in Europe or other places and mission all over the world.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: We have a particular charism to reach folks in the United States and North America.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's first of all an amazing charism to take place.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: But what do you know why they were so focused on America?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like what it was that they wanted to do.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there was this priest servant of God, Father Isaac Hecker, whose process of canonization is ongoing.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he was a redemptorist priest.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the redemptorist religious order founded by St.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Alphonsus Liguri.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, gotcha.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they were serving German Catholics in New York.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so he he's fascinated.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's like a a cat like America's OG seeker because he was raised like loosely with faith in New York.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: In New York, he was a baker.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: You can still find their family's like bread or flour.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Hecker flour is like a still sold in the world.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Still in New York?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the Hecker family, like loosely religious, and Isaac was younger and so got the chance to kind of explore a bit.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: So he he like went to Boston and spent time on Walden Farm with the Transcendentalists.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, I want to figure out what gives my life meaning and purpose in this country in the age of discovery and exploration, etc.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that led him through this friendship with um another Catholic to ex to find Roman Catholicism.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so he was like, Yep, that's it.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And he became a priest with this religious order, the Redemptorist.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: But they were serving German Catholic German-speaking Catholics in New York.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And he was Oh, German speaking specifically.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because every yeah, people gotta find their tribe, right?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so he wanted to like go beyond that and reach more people and go be a missionary.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, this is what we're doing.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so he went to Rome and went to met with the Pope, and there were five of them, and they asked for permission to leave to start this new religious community.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the Archbishop of New York blessed it and supported them.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there we go.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And here we go.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Rest is history.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: So six months, a year.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh well, how long?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, the communion project, how long has it been around?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: The original seed idea started a number of years ago.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the Paulist Fathers, this religious order, they every four years, most religious communities have their like chapter or assembly.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, four years ago, when the Paulists did that, uh, some of their meetings with their lay leaders and uh identified, hey, one of the problems we need to speak to is this toxic polarization and division within the church.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's this What do you mean?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly, right?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we're gonna have a character.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm kidding.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: So they so four years ago they had this like this idea.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: They had a conference two or three years ago with a hundred leaders and like, you know, the editors of the National Catholic Reporter, National Catholic Register, like kind of speaking different audiences, coming together and talking.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then that moved us forward to then kind of branding this effort, the communion project.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, polarization language isn't maybe as motivating or exciting to talk about, but it's like, what are we like, what's our goal?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we want to be in communion with each other in right relationships, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so to be as Augustine said, become what you receive.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: If we're gonna receive the body of Christ, then we got to be the body of Christ, but we're not really living that always.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and you would think that we would be more than we are, but you're right.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: We're we're definitely not what so this is just a little small project, no big deal.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: It seems easy to do.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: We'll knock it out a few months.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this will be done in about a weekend.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: No, seriously, I'm sitting here thinking, like, your strategic plan must look insane.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: It does.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: I can't imagine what you have on, like, you know what I mean?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: On the on white paper of like, and we're gonna do this for because that just is such an undertaking.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it feels like I mean, it's I'm making you feel really good about this, aren't I?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, I am now depressed.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, that that's right.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh no, but that's a lot.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: So so tell me some of the ways.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: How is the communion project going to attack this?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: Let's just say, true thing from the devil.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's right.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we we talk about toxic polarization is a sin.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just name name that it is what it is.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because there's nothing wrong with like difference.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Difference is healthy.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, we talk about a lot about like unity in diversity.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, like unity is the plan of God, and diversity is the plan of God because you can't be in communion with yourself.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like communion requires another, it requires difference.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so it opens, I think, it unlocks in the mind a sense of saving us or protecting us from going too far toward uniformity where we have to be all the same.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: But also, this this principle of unity protects us from overflowing with difference to a point of degree where there's no nothing that holds us together, becomes yeah, so like relativistic or whatever.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, this idea of unity and diversity is kind of what we're trying to cultivate, that practice.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're we're starting off at least by one, just raising awareness that, like, let's talk about the thing that maybe people are thinking of or know is there, but we don't ever like name the thing itself.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we start a podcast, launch a new website and social media presence just to talk about and lift up this idea of being in the right relationship with each other and hopefully creating and then creating some resources for individuals and leaders to reflect together on that work.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, how are we in our organization in communion with one another or you know, cultivating that mission of the church in the work?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then finally, we're trying to just bring people together across lines of difference.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um, two the first podcast episode was awesome with Tim Bush from Napa Institute here and Jesuit priest Father James Martin.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, those are two humans that have developed an awesome friendship, but who people wouldn't expect.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, right?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: The internet would expect that they're enemies, right?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, that was a great example of them talking together about their friendship and about how you can't hate someone you care for or who's a friend.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: You might disagree with them more, but like, how do we cultivate that friendship?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're gonna do different things to bring people together across lines of difference.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing a retreat for Catholic media this fall that I'm really excited about from different outlets across the spectrum of Catholic life.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Again, reflecting on what brings us together, which is so much more important and so much more than what might separate us or that we think would separate us.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: So, what has the feedback been so far, especially after that podcast?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: Which uh that hit my socials.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I'm sorry, Tim Bush and Walter Martin are in the same.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: What is happening right now?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: It was like it was like George Bush and Michelle Obama when that first came on the scene, and everybody was like, What is happening?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then they were so cute anyway.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: So um, so I love that we had the George and and the Michelle of Catholicism.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and the Supreme Court justices, Anton Scalia and Ruth Bader-Ginsburg had this long, really meaningful friendship throughout their life, which no one would expect.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody knew, right?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: But isn't that such a beautiful witness?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, it's a beautiful witness.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: So, how so have you been hearing back from that episode?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: Are people positive?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: Are they do you are getting any haters all over the thing?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Overall, people are very positive.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there's almost like someone who took like a hit from an oxygen mask for the first time, like, oh my gosh, thank you for doing this.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is so needed, right?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're as though they're breathing in something that they haven't been able to.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: I we're we're seeing that really positive response.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think different parts of the church bring different concerns to the table.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So some people are saying, well, what is this just code for bringing in things that go against church teachings?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: You just want it's like, that is we're not touching that.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's nothing to do with that.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or other people are like, these people are so fundamentally wrong, how can you dialogue with them?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think there is a little bit of a- we pray for them.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: We pray for them.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: We have to to have to have the open uh the openness of communication.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: What do you see, let's say, in 10 years?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we're speaking right now in 2026, yeah, which I'm never supposed to say the date, because then it dates the podcast.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: So everyone in 24, 25, hello, how are you doing?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: Hope your flying cars are doing great.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but in 10 years, what would be your dream of what the communion project has given to the church?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that people are talking with each other more.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope that the temperature is lowered and that ultimately the I think the fruit is a bolder, more joyful Catholic witness.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so like they're the like our our evangelization efforts are more fruitful.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And our parishes are places of more welcome and formation.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: But right now we're just getting on our own way.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of the fruit, because it's such a big thing, yeah, isn't gonna be necessarily visible talking about communion building itself, but we'll see it in how publishers relate to each other or Catholic media relate to each other, or people around the Thanksgiving table.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: If we can equip moms and dads and children to talk about to their Trump voting uncle or their Harris voting uncle or aunt, like that though, that's wherever the rubber hits the road, right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: That we're helping people with the skills and practices to maintain relationship.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: I love that because it's so true.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's we're definitely in a in a time where we lack the skill set of beginning relationships.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we've lost the script on communication, especially, you know, with social media, then with COVID.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, you're seeing young people don't even know how to date, they don't even know how to go and sit down and have a cup of coffee.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, Why would I talk to somebody?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, face, what do you do face to face?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, it's like that's a lot.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's why, you know, doing this podcast in person was really important to me because this is different, totally different, and it does, it changes the energy than you know, just whatever.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so I love that then you're saying, but maintain it.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's one thing to start.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: But to maintain is a whole different thing.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's like losing weight, it's like listening.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: You might be able to lose 10 pounds, but keeping it off that is the dream.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, what are some of the resources or some of the tips that you have for someone who's listening at home who isn't in a parish or who isn't, you know, Michelle Obama?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because we know all that she's listening.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: She definitely 100%.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so what do we say to the person that's just living their life, normal American?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: What can they do to further communion in the in the faith in the church?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a great question.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: What comes to mind is kind of checking what comes in and checking what goes out.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, in terms of what goes in, take a take a stock of your news and your digital footprint and what's feeding you, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like you become what you eat, you are what you eat, is like the going back to the the way, the way I am a truffle French rye.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly, right?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm a smash burger.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so going back to that, like you are where you eat, the same is true of what we consume in terms of like news.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so are we listening to things that are agitating us or reinforcing perspectives, or are we open to and trying to engage things we might disagree with?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you're listening to Fox News, great, but are you could you also listen to CNN or MSNBC, vice versa?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's true in secular news, just news of the week, but it's also true in terms of our Catholic news and different voices that we're listening to.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I think checking what comes in is really important.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you and see what you learn from that, right?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or even doing like a media fast.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's a wonderful sister here, Sister Nancy Usumen, who maybe know she's been on the show.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, she's a dear friend.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So she has this idea of like really helping cultivate um like digital fasting and self-awareness around that.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I she's excellent.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Her and her books went wonderful.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, she's incredible.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think what goes out is sort of like the self-awareness piece that maybe we're not always as self-aware of how we're engaging.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: So on our communionproject.org website, we created a little like inventory, like self self-assessment.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, cool.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: So there's already tools that people can go.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, I love that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And just start there.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like before you start by calling someone or reaching out or trying to do something, just start in prayer or in self-reflection of like where am I at in this process?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, no, that makes a lot of sense.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, okay, you're a little bit about you.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: You're in DC.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: So that's you know, a safe, stable environment.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, not toxic at all.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: No, everybody is like kumbaya.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so so you must get lots of inspiration just getting your mail.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: My gosh.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, I just had a moment of like that must be a lot.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know what's great is two Catholic parishes right downtown on Capitol Hill, St.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Peter's and St.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Joseph's, and folk staffers and congressmen from both parties show up to Mass together, go to Daily Mass in the mornings, or on Ash Wednesday, like they're packing in.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're already doing it a little bit.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just about cultivating then aware a greater awareness for that.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like like you're a PR agent for that.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's what that's what y'all need to do, is like that's what we need to see.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: We need to see more, we need to see that, like on sort of like film, like just film them looking at each other in mass.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: No, but that's I mean, but it makes sense that you're in DC, as I was teasing, but that's fabulous.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: So you have a family, I'm guessing, because you have a ring.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I uh live in a little town about a mile outside DC, and we married 10 years this fall.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: Aw.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: September anniversary.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, celebrating 10, which is big 10, double digits.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Feels like a big accomplishment.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: It is, it is.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, I've been married 26 years.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Oh man.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: 10 is the first, you're cute.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: You're still newlyweds.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're still figuring it out.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because they were coming up to the to the point of like, oh, wait, I like you.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now that we're not parenting exclusively young children, oh, this is nice.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now I remember you.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got a seven-year-old, a five-year-old, and a two-year-old.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: I love that you said you're not parenting young children.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: You are not babies, I guess.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're sleeping through the night the best of the time.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: We're winning at light.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Everything is louder during the daytime, but yeah.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's great.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, okay, so as a father, as a husband, how are you cultivating a, you know, uh unified communion in your home?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: How are you teaching your children?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: They're little, but they're still, I mean, we still teach them about all sorts of things when they're small, you know, and trying to tell them.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: So just take off the actual founder hat and you're just a good old dad, you know, mowing the lawn in your black socks.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just kidding, he's not that kind of a guy.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: And but what does that look like around your table?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: What does that look like in your living room?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I I used the phrase earlier, right relationship, which I think is so helpful.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And people maybe talk about that during like first reconciliation practice or like, you know, uh confession things like that.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's really helpful language and it's more, I mean, more humanizing language too.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like even outside of any sort of Catholic sacrament stuff, like we're just made to be in right relationship with each other.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we know when we're not in right relationship.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of it is so important to practice the skills of I mean, asking for forgiveness, saying we're sorry.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my pet pees, I used to be a director of religious education for a couple churches for like five years.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would always cue in on like, don't just say after someone apologizes to you, it's okay, don't worry about it.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, they are offering you a vulnerable, I'm sorry.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we receive that by saying, I forgive you.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: So even just practicing the language of I forgive you, which I think is great for little kids and older kids and adults, um, it's it's hard.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because it almost feels like, wait, but I don't need to, I don't need your forgiveness.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a sense in which if someone says I forgive you, yeah, it hits that you did something wrong.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Where if it's like, don't worry about it or it's okay, it's almost like, oh, I got off the house.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, sometimes I can I understand it's an easier language just to say it's okay, and like that's just common parlance too.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there's something really meaningful about I forgive you, to be vulnerable to another person.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think as a father, I try to, I hope that we're cultivating a vulnerability in our kids to be self-aware of their own feelings and needs and awareness, um, but also how they're called out of themselves to be in relationship with our neighbors down the street next door and with our within our own families who for whom it's sometimes hardest to love or you know, reconcile.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: No, I think that's a very good point.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: And like the accountability piece of that, because I don't know about you.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: I say I one of the things I say about this country, I love I love being an American, um, happy 250th, hurrah.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but the thing is, is we have a problem with accountability and entitlement in this country.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you feel that way.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've noticed, yeah.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: You could write that down.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Once or twice, yeah.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just giving you breaking news for you.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just giving you like this is like breaking news.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: How do you spell accountability?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, that's hard.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: Spelling's difficult.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but I think that that's what's so beautiful about what you're doing in your home is that you are teaching your children, hey, I did something.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I gotta be accountable.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because let's think about, you know, it's easy watching other people on television, it's easy watching people on social media, making judgments about what they're doing with their lives, you know, and every now and then uh some people make huge mistakes.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: And when they have the spine to come out publicly and say, listen, I really messed up.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and I'm really sorry, and I'm not gonna do that again.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's incredible, no matter if you're Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, whatever, just as a human being to recognize, wow, that took a lot for someone to do.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like, I feel like what you're doing is teaching the foundation, the fundamentals of that kind of a thing.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: So then we're gonna have healthy adults go into the world.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and isn't it the case, or I think it's the case, that you can tell when that uh apology or that reconciliation is authentic.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, and when it feels like a PR move.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's true in our homes too.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, say you're say sorry to your sister and check if she's okay.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Hang on a second.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look her in the eyes, yeah, ask.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that actually that's maybe that's what we're trying to do already.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: But like in our family, if a kid hits another kid by accident on most of the time it's not on accident, um, but it's like, hey, the thing, two things you do is you say you're sorry and you check to see if they're okay.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you bang dad because you're running around the corner, like check on them.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think though, like again, when we were reconciling or trying to reconnect with people, or someone's apologizing might be a celebrity.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you can tell if, like, are you just saying sorry quick to because it's a better PR move from your agents, or are you doing the work?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Are you doing the work?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Often that means stepping out of the spotlight to because it to do the most authentic work.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So so it doesn't seem performative or isn't performative.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: So, what are some resources that already exist that necessarily not necessarily coming from you guys?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because I love that you have stuff, but are there any books or authors or saints or anybody that you guys are like, all right, listen, this is this is a good one?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, you mentioned Sister Nancy with the media, but is there, you know, anyone else that that people can consume or you know, kind of get to know that is in line with what you're trying to do?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's so much that that crosses over different angles.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: The things that come to mind first, probably because I'm a dad, is like Dr.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Becky.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you've heard of her, she's a psychology, like works with kids, psychologists.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: She has a book called Good Inside, and it's amazing.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: She specifically works a lot with what she calls um deeply feeling kids.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And like recognizing different sensitivities that kids have and how to work with them.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so you so much of it is just like being a good human and learning how to relate to human beings.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I love that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then anxious generation, I think anything that's that's tapping us into the way in which technology is impacting us is important for us to touch in on.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we've got to, we've got to keep it.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so hard.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're a young father, and my kids are old.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: They're 23 and 16.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so this technology thing is like nuts.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I can imagine for your two-year-old, what is it gonna look like?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and you were more the front lines because so much of it hit right when your kids were in that most formative years and they're it's native to them.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm I'm old enough that like Facebook came out when I was in college.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, same.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so like I was I didn't grow up with that in the same way that folks that are in their teens now or 20s now have always had the ubiquity of social media, which is why so many I think are willingly giving it up or you know, choosing to step aside uh or skeptical of AI and things like that, because there's a there's a there's a hunger for humanity.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: So, how do you work within technology with what you're doing?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you've got this beast of, but also it's it's probably your biggest uh leverage to reach people.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so talk to me about that.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: How do you guys how do you how do you navigate those waters?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think recognizing that technology is a tool.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it does it's not like intrinsically or inherently good or bad, and tools can be used for lots of good things, and tools can be used for lots of hurtful things.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think what's most important is the hand that's holding the tool.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so, how are we cultivating the right type of practices that allow technology to be a gift and the blessing that it can be?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so it uh to me it's about the human person, but there's also things I think are just closer to intrinsically bad or certainly intrinsically dangerous, yeah, especially that some that are very algorithm-driven.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that, or just recognizing they're maybe they're not intrinsically dangerous, but they're intrinsically formative.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so the question of like, what are we being formed in?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're on apps that where you're swipe swiping every 10 or 30 seconds, like that's forming us into that when there's an idea or a thought that I don't like, I just go on to the next thing or the next one, or a dating app that I swipe to go on to someone I do or don't like, right?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because then we in real life, I think we try to figure out how do I swipe this person away.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or it's easier to deal with people in dismissive ways or flippant ways online, whether it's in chats or text messages or comment sections, um, because we're used to this sort of like quick and dirty approach to communication.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like ghosting.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Where you would never say that to someone's face.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think again, it's cultivating the human virtues and practices that allow us to use those things well.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: No, this is so exciting because this is such a necessary thing.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: And obviously, God is so brilliant.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: In case you didn't know, you can write that down.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: And he, you know, the timing is just fabulous that you guys are doing this.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: I can see that this is done with such intention and with such thought.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, tell me a little bit about the media retreat.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: What is that gonna look like?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: Is that because that also makes sense to form those who are out there on the front lines and who are trying, you know, hopefully trying to unify people.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: You would hope that the people that would be coming to the media retreat is that that's their point, not trying to divide.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: So tell me about that, how how you guys are also bringing that into play.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's our first time.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we're just gonna try something and see how it goes.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna just gonna be a small, kind of invite-only gathering of about 20 folks.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: We've got two amazing folks who are on the communion projects advisory board and are luminaries in this field.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna be the retreat directors.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: So a woman named Dr.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: uh Dr.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Amy Yulman, okay, who's uh director of mission and ministry at Georgetown Law and teaches at Georgetown Law.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: So she's not smart, no, not at all.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And she's a member of a movement called Focalare.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, founded in Italy, and their charism is a spirituality of unity.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, amazing.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's incredible.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: This priest, Father Aaron Westman, who's a Glenn Mary home missioner, and their charism and mission is like serving folks in rural America.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: They do a lot of work in Appalachia or Oh, wow.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's incredible.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: He's and he's written a book on this work.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: They both have published a lot on this.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: So they're gonna be facilitating.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we've chosen to use Mary as a theme.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um interestingly, the Focalari community, the full name of them is the work of Mary.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because they I think they they source in Mary this like principle of unity, which like isn't it so true that like a mother is?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: So to we're I think we're calling the retreat at this point, we're still finalizing everything.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, sure, sure, sure.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Mary Mother of Communion.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because in Mary, we find this this deep unity in the church.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: She's the mother of the church, but also this rich diversity, where at the Basilica of the National Shrine in DC, you've got like a hundred Mary chapels of Mary being enculturated and taking on the language and the culture, uh, sometimes you know, in visions in all these different parts of the world.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, and so there's like such a richness of diversity.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine how boring that church would be if there was only one Mary, right?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: But Mary expresses God's goodness in a richness of ways.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have a personal like commitment to Mary on your own, like in your own personal um like spirituality?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: Have you gotten closer to her since you've done this work?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: Or maybe you were already a Mary and you know, devotee.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: There's some that it's just interesting to me talking to so many Catholics.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: Some people, Mary's their gal.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like they are like, we are tight.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: And then other people like, you know, I struggle with Mary.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how to talk to her.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how I don't know what to do.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: I respect her.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think she's amazing, but I don't know how to incorporate her, especially in 2026.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: So you personally, where are you in your journey?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if you don't mind sharing with Mary.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've sort of found myself alongside Mary in certain in key moments, is where I where I felt most close.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, like uh the whole being a becoming a dad and finding myself like in that holy family scene was really special and like really connected me to Mary in a new way, as a Mary who breastfed an infant Jesus and who went through the pains of childbirth and a Joseph that was walking with her along that way and protecting them to flee to Egypt, right?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: All this.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a really formative experience or connection point with Mary as a dad.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then I I would say I have kind of a very Holy Spirit um kind of spirituality as well.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so thinking about the upper room, yeah, where Mary was with the disciples and um just you know, thinking of her special role as the mother of the church and being and being present there.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: I love that stands out to me.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: No, that does stand out for sure.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I had it, I'm really glad that you pointed her out because I we I I was even thinking about um the wedding feast of Cana.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, how she was trying to bring, you know, the people that's so true.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't ever really think of her that I mean it makes so much sense, but she really is such a great example of true communion with Christ, bringing people to Christ.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's what she does.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Which is what we're supposed to do.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's not about her, it's not about her, and that's never about her.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I some people they're the way they express Mary and spirituality can be very upfront, and that's a gift to try to elevate that.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: I would say my approach is much more like maybe with Mary pointing to Jesus.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or trying trying to do that, right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly have a lot more to a lot to learn from Mary.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: Do you guys have any certain prayer or novena that you rally around that as a you know, as a new organization that you say or that you've written for people for communion?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've we've adapted a prayer for unity.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, good to into a prayer for communion.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: I bought some prayer cards, I'll leave one with you.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: Nice, yay! I would love to do that.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of like to the Holy Spirit as well.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, there's some beautiful prayers to the Holy Spirit that kind of ask that uh before specifically, there's one that they prayed every day at the beginning of the session for Vatican II.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, really?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's called Come Holy Spirit.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say Musa Santos Spirit II.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's a short little prayer, it's beautiful.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there's some there's some great ones again, just like about align alignment with the God's Spirit, yeah, and asking the Holy Spirit breathe into what we're doing.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I one of the one of my favorite reflections, and it's engraved on our wedding band because it was our wedding reading, is specifically the fruits of that spirit in Galatians five, when Paul talks about the what the fruits of the spirit are.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think some of the resources we have for the communion project touch on those fruits as really helpful, like self-assessment or self-awareness, almost like an examination of conscience.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I've used that in my in my prayer life of like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we can just sit with those and reflect with those, we will engage with other people very differently.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And those are also the fruits, right?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Paul tells us.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So if we are not seeing those things, it's an opportunity, I think, to you know, comfort the afflicted and afflict the comforted, where sometimes we have to call people out and you know in a loving, brotherly, sisterly way when they're not being very joyful or very patient or very gentle.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a way to do that for sure.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: So speaking of prayer, um, at the end of our conversation, which is so sad because I'm just now really kind of digging into it, I'm like, oh, I have like a thousand more questions for you.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um I love to ask my guests, how can we pray for you?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: What is it that you need in prayer right now?
• 31:52
  unknown: What a beautiful question.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: So many things.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's which ones to choose.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And always like pray for family.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like said, let's my most important job is my family.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: So pray for that.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then for the communion project, uh, pray for our little team.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And as we're growing this outreach and that we're, you know, being faithful and um yeah, help it, just helping it to continue to bear fruit.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, I love that.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: All right, we can pray for that for sure.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: I want to thank you so much for being here.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for doing the work that you're doing because it is so necessary, and thank you for being brave living in DC.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm kidding.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um the humidity is with us.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, DC's the best.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: I love DC.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: I go all the time.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: All right, thank you so much.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yay!