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Xbox Is My Friend, Pikachu Is My Enemy · Critical Error

0:00
Here's an episode idea. What if Jake,
0:02
for this one, we talked about a bunch of
0:03
random different topics?
0:04
>> Oh my god. Can we even talk about Phil
0:06
Spencer and Xbox?
0:08
>> Yes, Jake, we can talk about Phil
0:09
Spencer and Xbox.
0:12
[screaming]
0:12
>> Why?
0:13
>> A critical error is an error which the
0:15
OS cannot reasonably ignore.
0:18
Jake Steinberg [music] is a streamer,
0:20
writer, and certified yapper.
0:21
Complimentary. Peter Hunt
0:25
tech is a YouTuber, journalist, and
0:27
certified yapper. Derogatory. These are
0:30
the things they cannot reasonably
0:31
ignore.
0:32
>> Okay, so by now we're all familiar with
0:34
this news. Phil Spencer, Sarah Bond,
0:36
they exit Xbox. We've got this new AI
0:38
person taking their place. I don't need
0:39
to run through all of this. What is the
0:41
most compelling part about this news?
0:44
What do we want to talk about the most?
0:46
>> Okay, so here's something that we talked
0:47
about a little bit, I think, even when
0:49
we did our BDS episode. this idea that
0:51
like uh uh when covering a company like
0:54
Xbox,
0:56
a lot of people are like taking their
0:57
word for what's going on and allowing
1:00
this company and companies in general um
1:03
allowing them to sort of control the way
1:06
that they want their news to break. Does
1:08
that kind of make sense? A lot of people
1:09
are saying like, "Oh my gosh, Phil
1:10
Spencer and Sarah Bond both decided to
1:13
leave the company on the same Friday
1:15
afternoon." And it's like, listen, I
1:17
don't work at Xbox. I don't know what's
1:18
going on back there. However, are we all
1:22
sure? Are we all sure that that happened
1:24
exactly like Xbox is telling us it's
1:26
happening?
1:27
>> It's a funny thing, right? Because I
1:29
think to anybody watching the situation
1:31
and maybe even aware of the Xbox brand
1:33
over the past few years, it feels
1:35
>> it's not going good
1:37
>> and I I don't really need a behind the
1:39
scenes look at what is going on with
1:41
Xbox because I'm familiar with the
1:44
scenes in front of me. [laughter]
1:46
Yes,
1:46
>> there's this hilarious thing going on
1:48
where it's like, "Hey everybody, I think
1:50
that maybe they were fired. I think that
1:51
maybe that's kind of what happened." And
1:53
and this the story that we should be
1:56
interrogating is um the one that is most
1:59
clear and in front of our faces. But, uh
2:02
I felt that the response to this news,
2:05
Phil Spencer's leaving, Sarah Bond's not
2:08
taking over, she's out as well. We've
2:10
got this new person coming in. Uh there
2:12
were like two distinct paths that
2:15
someone could go down. Yes. And this was
2:18
the most telling event ever for the
2:22
people that are, for lack of a better
2:24
term, the foot soldiers of the Xbox
2:27
brand. I cannot believe the
2:29
self-reporting of the influencer
2:32
accounts who there once they they were
2:35
betrothed to to Mr. for Phil Spencer are
2:38
now throwing their feet at the
2:41
replacement. We've got to give her a
2:43
chance. We've got to see her out. We've
2:45
got to see what kind of leadership she's
2:46
going to bring to the Xbox brand. It's
2:49
this very interesting thing where I
2:50
thought they were they had an allegiance
2:52
to Phil Spencer. They had a relationship
2:54
to him. He was a friend. He was somebody
2:56
that they believed in his leadership.
2:59
But now that he's out, it is more clear
3:01
to me than ever that the thing that they
3:03
really have allegiance to is the brand
3:05
above all else. Above all else.
3:07
>> Yes. Yes. And it's this thing that's
3:09
like it's awkward, right? Because to me,
3:11
it's moments like these that I think are
3:12
are pretty telling. I for whatever
3:15
reason like this also makes me think of
3:17
that big insomniac leak that happened
3:19
like three years ago. You know what I'm
3:20
talking about?
3:21
>> I do. um when like all of these uh
3:26
journalists and content creators and
3:29
whatever were like, "Hey, we are not
3:31
going to be reporting on the Insomniac
3:33
leak."
3:34
>> And to me, that's a test that you have
3:38
failed or maybe you passed depending on
3:39
sort of like the way you're looking at
3:40
it, right? To me, it's like, hey, if
3:43
that is the the position you're taking
3:45
with this, you're kind of not a
3:46
journalist. Like like I'm sorry, you're
3:48
just not, right? if you're more
3:50
interested in in the people who are in
3:53
this company and what's going on with
3:55
this company than you actually are to
3:57
like getting to the bottom of this and
3:58
like trying to figure out like hey uh
4:01
who does it serve for Phil Spencer to
4:06
just say you know what it's time to
4:08
retire for Sarah Bond to be like you
4:10
know what now is the time for me to
4:11
leave Xbox I think I think it's the time
4:14
who does it serve for it to be that
4:15
clean and that and that uh uh and easy
4:18
of a cut you
4:19
It's this incredibly funny thing where
4:21
there is maybe a bit of a performative
4:24
reflex when layoffs happen in the video
4:27
game industry in any regard. The fact
4:29
that we extend the exact same
4:32
performative reflex and maybe even more
4:35
so to a CEO like Phil Spencer who god
4:40
knows how cushy his retirement is going
4:42
to be. makes me wonder exactly what our
4:46
sympathies are for the people who get
4:48
laid off and why because this seems to
4:49
be a completely separate situation from
4:51
me. And one of the most um prominent
4:55
kind of responses to his exit that I saw
4:57
over the past week were people in the
5:00
kind of uh games media apparatus posting
5:04
stories about Phil Spencer about times
5:07
in which he extended kindness to them
5:09
about times in which he proved he was
5:12
one of us. And it's exactly what you're
5:14
talking about with that insomniac thing
5:16
because I think it's a uh the kind of
5:17
Xbox is my friend problem. Yes. is a
5:21
reaction to access journalism because
5:24
the coverage has become a response to um
5:28
social anecdotes, private kindness
5:31
largely centered on vibes above all
5:34
else. Uh Phil Spencer was is kind of we
5:37
can see now was able to successfully
5:40
curry the favor of a lot of people in
5:42
that game's media apparatus by simply um
5:46
cosplaying as a gamer.
5:48
>> Yeah. And it's been interesting too
5:49
because like so much of the conversation
5:51
surrounding uh this new Microsoft gaming
5:53
CEO Asha Chararma seems to be dominated
5:56
in these sorts of spaces in like the
5:59
sort of like Xbox influencer space about
6:01
like yeah but she's like not a gamer
6:04
dude. And it's like yeah Phil Spencer
6:06
was and look what he was doing. It
6:07
wasn't going good you know.
6:09
>> Yeah. See and that's that's a funny
6:10
thing too because there is this like
6:12
public mourning of what the this the the
6:15
the loss of Phil Spencer represents. And
6:18
I'm so confused like what exactly was it
6:21
that people were so attached to about
6:22
the Xbox brand for the past decade cuz
6:25
it wasn't the games. So I so so
6:28
something interesting about this too is
6:29
like bringing up this idea of like
6:31
mourning like mourning the loss of Phil
6:34
Spencer in the games industry, right?
6:36
And then also like a bunch of people
6:38
like sharing their stories about Phil
6:40
Spencer, which by all accounts seems
6:42
like a nice enough guy, right? Like
6:43
whatever. That's not the the problem
6:45
here. It's that then there's this piece
6:47
that goes up on Windows Central that is
6:50
like eulogizing like like goodbye Phil
6:52
Spencer, you brought Xbox to be the best
6:54
it's ever been and like let's welcome
6:56
in, you know, this new CEO and whatever.
6:58
And it's this like this really to me
7:01
like awkward sort of like corporate
7:03
apology piece and everyone it feels like
7:05
in the games media space is like dunking
7:08
on this and saying like this is bad,
7:10
this is embarrassing, like whatever,
7:11
whatever, whatever. But then at the same
7:13
time, it is all of those people and
7:16
their friends who are still like also
7:17
doing the same thing, just not writing a
7:18
piece about it, saying it that exact
7:20
way. You sort of know what I mean? Like
7:21
there's this odd like like like,
7:24
hey, it's okay to sort of like glaze
7:27
Phil Spencer and the Xbox brand, but not
7:29
as blatantly as you're doing it. But I
7:31
can do it on my Twitter account or my
7:32
Blue Sky account or whatever, but I'm
7:33
not going to, you know, do a post about
7:35
it on on the website I work at. It just
7:37
is very weird like double standard to me
7:38
that I just have a hard time figuring
7:39
out. There is a double standard and this
7:41
is probably only like most visible to
7:44
people like you and me who are
7:45
entrenched in the space and we are able
7:47
to kind of discern the multiple classes
7:51
of kind of the the games media click
7:53
because the fact of the matter is is
7:55
that we can look at something happening
7:56
last week kind of completely unrelated
7:58
to this like um Todd Howard appearing on
8:01
kind of funny games daily for this or
8:02
whatever their show is for this kind of
8:05
um extensive interview that I think is
8:08
largely similar to the kind of thing
8:09
that you find on maybe the view and it's
8:13
um softball questions there largely as a
8:15
as as a PR effort kind of laundering the
8:18
reputation of this person uh for the
8:20
sake of giving him the appearance of so
8:22
and so is our friend and then I think
8:24
what you're seeing now is this response
8:26
from kind of the people in the same uh
8:30
niche as as maybe the the the kind of
8:33
funnies having these responses to Phil
8:35
Spencer and Sarah Bond leaving because
8:37
they are the kinds of people that and in
8:39
a performative way be like, "Look, this
8:41
person's our friend. They're going to
8:42
come on our shows and they're going to
8:43
talk to us and we're going to talk about
8:45
the games." And now we're mourning the
8:47
loss of that relationship. This person
8:50
now who is in this position, we don't
8:52
have a relationship to us. Maybe they
8:55
don't even see us as valuable. And that
8:58
is worth mourning. That is where Yeah.
9:00
>> And you know what's kind of interesting
9:01
about this too? You know, you sort of
9:03
said uh like that show was kind of like
9:05
The View and whatever. I think that's
9:06
interesting because I think that uh
9:08
something I've been doing over the past
9:09
year or so has been sort of reframing
9:11
the way that I think about a lot of like
9:13
games media stuff because here's the
9:14
thing. Um and I'm not willing to die on
9:17
this hill because I just don't know that
9:18
much about The View. But I can't imagine
9:20
that The View is like something that's
9:22
so incredibly harmful to the world. It's
9:24
just like like daytime talk show. Right.
9:27
>> Of course. But the thing about the view
9:28
is that I think sometimes the view is
9:30
even serving up questions that are a
9:32
little bit more intense than what we're
9:33
willing to do because the core of this
9:35
is that with every PR engagement and
9:37
that's what any of these people coming
9:39
on
9:40
>> uh a show like kind of funny is it's a
9:42
PR engagement they come in with a
9:44
message and there is an agreed upon
9:46
message between the platform and the
9:48
person that's why uh you know the movie
9:51
stars whose movies are coming out go on
9:52
to the Tonight Show. This is the
9:54
message. We are here to advertise
9:56
something. And as a as a journalist,
9:58
bottom level, and I'm not saying
10:00
everybody has to adhere to this, but I
10:01
think if you're if you're operating
10:03
under the guise of journalism, then this
10:05
is kind of the bare minimum standard is
10:08
you need to be able to lightly push back
10:11
against whatever that narrative is or
10:14
question it or something. You need to
10:16
identify that's their story. This is my
10:18
story. So, that's sort of what I'm
10:20
getting at though where I'm like, "Okay,
10:21
here's the thing though." Like, I'm not
10:23
super plugged into like the kind of
10:25
funny
10:27
community and creators and whatever. Um,
10:28
other than our boy Barrett Courtney, who
10:30
was a lovely guest on our show. Um, but
10:32
like I don't know if they're calling
10:33
themselves journalists over there,
10:35
right?
10:35
>> I don't think so. I don't think so.
10:36
>> I don't think so either. I don't think
10:37
so.
10:37
>> But this thing sort of what I've been
10:39
working at like over the past year is
10:40
sort of like remembering and like
10:41
realizing like, oh wait, like we do need
10:43
to I think we need to reframe the idea
10:45
of who is a journalist and who isn't.
10:46
And a lot of it comes down to these
10:48
sorts of opportunities, right? I don't
10:49
think there's like like again I'm make a
10:52
blanket statement here that I haven't
10:53
thought about, so I'm not willing to die
10:54
on this hill, but I don't think there's
10:55
anything wrong with uh kind of funny
10:58
being the view of
11:00
>> Oh, no. Absolutely. Absolutely not. The
11:02
problem is in the lack of diversity. The
11:04
problem is
11:04
>> Yes, that's correct. Is that the problem
11:07
I've been realizing is I've been like,
11:08
"Oh, wait. Everyone's the view.
11:10
>> Everyone's the view." Like everyone's
11:12
the view. And um that is uh to me a sign
11:17
of maybe a
11:19
media landscape that is not particularly
11:21
healthy because if as we've talked about
11:24
a lot on this show, the idea of
11:26
journalism is to push back against
11:27
corporate interests and like uh
11:29
governmental interests and things like
11:30
that to to ask the question like hey why
11:33
are we doing this? Hey, why are you as a
11:34
company doing this if no one is really
11:37
doing that and everyone is just getting
11:38
to interview, you know, not just Todd
11:40
Howard, but like all the other people
11:42
they interview, Suda 51 or or
11:45
whoever, like
11:47
>> if there's never a follow-up question,
11:48
but like, hey, what about this thing
11:50
that wasn't on the approved questions
11:52
list,
11:53
>> right? And I think you so clearly see
11:57
this lack of a counterbalance in just
12:00
how saturated the gaming space is with
12:02
these kind of enthusiast accounts. Which
12:04
is why one of the prevailing stories
12:06
about the the the exit of Phil Spencer
12:10
and the replacement character is
12:12
centered on this question of gamer
12:14
credentials of of how important it is
12:17
that this person plays video games,
12:19
understands video games. Is it, you
12:21
know, does the does should the CEO
12:23
understand the product of whatever
12:25
company it is that they're dealing with?
12:26
I think in a lot of instances, it would
12:28
be very easy for us to just be like, h,
12:31
I guess it doesn't really matter. But
12:32
with games specifically, we have decided
12:33
that it does. And I'm not really
12:36
interested in um in,
12:39
you know, litigating this question. I
12:41
don't think it's particularly
12:42
interesting. But what I am interested in
12:44
is the fact that the gamer credential
12:46
question was able to kind of rise to the
12:49
top of discussion, whereas maybe more
12:53
controversial aspects of this person's
12:55
background, aspects that I think are
12:57
maybe more detrimental to the video game
13:00
space HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY IGNORED. WELL,
13:03
SO it's what's interesting here, Jake,
13:05
is and maybe like if we're talking in
13:07
circles a little bit, you can stop me.
13:08
But like it's this idea that like oh
13:10
wait, we're not going to be able to chop
13:11
it up with uh Asha Sharma.
13:14
>> Yeah.
13:14
>> Because she doesn't know, you know,
13:15
what's up with Gears of War, you know,
13:17
like [laughter]
13:18
like Okay. Yeah. So, you know, she'll
13:20
come on the podcast and I guess we'll
13:21
just talk about the business. Oh gosh.
13:24
You know, it feels like to me that if
13:26
the people who are doing these
13:27
interviews are people who are maybe less
13:29
prepared to talk about the real
13:31
journalism side of talking to um an
13:34
executive at a [clears throat] not just
13:37
a major corporation, one of the major
13:40
corporations in the entire world on the
13:42
entire planet. And if all we can talk
13:45
about is like, hey, what happened with
13:46
Redfall? Like I think that maybe there
13:49
are some uh uh problems with the
13:52
ecosystem here. if that's if those are
13:54
the only questions that are being asked.
13:56
>> Yeah, it's this there's this really odd
13:58
thing, right? Because there was this
13:59
like um video conversation with um Asha
14:04
where Asha Sharma, the the the new I
14:07
don't even really know what the title is
14:08
of this Xbox.
14:10
>> I'm looking at Forbes.com. She is the
14:12
new Microsoft gaming CEO.
14:14
>> They change that whatever that position
14:16
is every goddamn year. Yeah, it's cuz I
14:18
think that
14:18
>> I think that she doesn't want to be the
14:20
head of Xbox because that's what it was
14:22
before.
14:23
>> Not great.
14:24
>> Not great. No,
14:25
>> you know, it's um so like for for
14:27
example, uh she, you know, coming having
14:29
this AI background uh is is also a
14:33
natalist, which is not particularly
14:35
good. And to explain this to the to the
14:38
listener, there was like this video
14:39
interview thing where this came out. She
14:41
had this statement about um feeling
14:42
anxiety around will my son have
14:46
classmates, right? This this framing of
14:49
fertility as uh declining fertility
14:53
rates as this kind of looming social
14:55
emptiness. But the
14:58
>> actual analysis that a serious person
15:00
would conduct is answering this question
15:02
of why are birth rates declining? And
15:04
it's very obvious to anybody willing to
15:06
look into this for a little just a
15:08
little bit because um across the almost
15:10
entirety of the global north people are
15:12
having fewer children because the
15:15
housing costs are up because there are
15:16
stating one because there crushing child
15:19
care, student debt, lack of health care,
15:22
anxiety over the climate, all of these
15:24
issues, all the material conditions is
15:26
what I'm interested in. And I think like
15:29
then you've got this person coming in
15:30
and saying, "How do we use AI to
15:32
increase pregnancy rates?" And it's
15:35
like, dude,
15:36
>> I just think that there is this like
15:41
this technological optimization of
15:44
reproduction. What what's happening
15:46
there is you are centering the labor
15:49
supply over the quality of life for
15:53
human beings. And maybe that is a bad
15:56
sign for your CEO to be doing that, for
15:59
your leader, your [laughter]
16:01
>> Yeah. But it's it's this thing where
16:02
it's like it's like I imagine that she's
16:06
not going to be out doing, you know, the
16:08
kind of funny press John, right? Not
16:10
just kind of funny, it's just the one
16:11
that's on top of my mind.
16:13
>> But like, you know, like I I to me I
16:16
don't really see it. Um because I think
16:18
that a lot of the questions that are
16:20
thrown, you know, their way are are
16:22
about the specifics of games and stuff
16:24
in the same way that like I don't know
16:27
like removed from his I guess
16:29
personality, I guess. Can you imagine
16:31
someone like uh like Bobby Cotic going
16:33
and doing this? No, because he's like
16:35
not concerned with games or gaming. He's
16:38
concerned with the business, you know,
16:39
and he like bad example because he's who
16:43
he is um also not involved there
16:45
anymore, but you know what I'm trying to
16:46
say, right? like no it would be weird
16:48
for someone like that to show up um
16:52
on these shows especially I do think
16:54
because like
16:56
I don't want to go there it's just
16:58
>> but Peter at the same time at the same
16:59
time at the same time I think it's
17:00
important to contextualize that over the
17:02
past however many years we have seen
17:04
just an unending spree of layoffs at
17:07
Xbox and Phil Spencer has successfully
17:10
dodged responsibility for every single
17:13
one of those layoffs even though as the
17:16
leader ship that is that starts at him.
17:19
That's 100% it starts with him. And the
17:22
fact that I think you know somebody like
17:24
Bobby Cotic who is just an allound evil
17:26
person but Phil Spencer has been able to
17:29
launder his reputation to the point that
17:31
people don't even see him as a CEO. They
17:33
see him as this kind of ideological
17:35
leader in the video game space which is
17:37
absolutely insane. the fact that like I
17:40
felt like I was watching um like Henry
17:42
Kissinger died and everybody's tweeting
17:44
out their nice stories about Henry
17:46
Kissinger sent me an email once and he
17:48
was actually really nice to me. I'm like
17:50
what the what are you talking about?
17:52
Like do you do you actually care about
17:54
>> what's this thing right where it's it's
17:56
like like obviously that is that is a a
18:00
like exaggeration.
18:02
>> I'm sorry I'm being a goof. I was being
18:03
a goof. No, no, no. But I think it's
18:05
just worth pointing out though, like cuz
18:06
I think sometimes people take us a
18:07
little too seriously on this podcast if
18:08
I'm being honest with you. Um, obviously
18:10
it's an exaggeration, but it's like,
18:11
okay, we all care about video game
18:13
layoffs, right? Okay, everyone is so
18:14
devastated that Bluepoint Games got
18:16
closed by PlayStation. Everyone's
18:17
devastated. Everyone was devastated
18:19
that, you know, Xbox closed what? Arcane
18:21
and Tango Gameworks and like literally
18:23
everything they had the the Coalition, I
18:26
think. It doesn't matter. Like
18:27
everything they own, they just have shut
18:28
down over the last like few years for
18:29
the most part. And it's this frustrating
18:32
thing. We're like, "Okay, we all care
18:33
about that." But then, yes, when Phil
18:35
Spencer shows up, yeah, let's talk to
18:36
him about Forza. Yeah. You know what I
18:38
mean? Like, like, why are we asking him
18:39
about Forza? Why are we asking him about
18:41
Fable and and whatever else? Why are we
18:42
not saying like, "Hey, man, we all care
18:44
about the people who work in this
18:45
industry. We all care about good games.
18:47
What the [ __ ] is going on over there,
18:48
man?" Well, and now again kind of kind
18:50
of shifting the our attention back to
18:52
this this kind of like Xbox influencer
18:54
that is like you need to give this this
18:57
person a chance in this role rather than
18:59
being immediately critical of them. I
19:01
don't know. I think it's entirely fair
19:03
for our analysis to be based on the fact
19:05
that the new head of Xbox has deep ties
19:07
to Microsoft's AI strategy, cloud
19:10
infrastructure, and just like overall
19:12
enterprise optimization. Because what
19:14
does that signal to me in terms of
19:16
Xbox's long-term strategy? Is the
19:18
priority going to be content, hardware,
19:21
subscriptions, or is it going to be data
19:23
infrastructure? Is is are we like what
19:27
is this AI integration going to look
19:28
like? There's a there's a quote out
19:30
there about how she's um she's against
19:32
bad AI. Oh,
19:34
>> good. Oh, good. You're against bad AI.
19:36
Great.
19:37
>> But I saw people in the space slurping
19:38
this up.
19:39
>> I know. I know.
19:40
>> Flurp slurp. So, I don't know. I think
19:42
it's it's just incredibly fair for us to
19:45
be critical of all of these people,
19:47
especially the incoming ones. And this
19:49
kind of personalization of power, the
19:52
soft corporate critiques, the the the
19:54
the like the the fandom surrounding
19:57
these executives is absolutely
19:59
embarrassing. I I don't I don't know
20:01
what we're doing with this. It's like
20:02
it's like we're we're talking about like
20:03
a celebrity that died that we met at
20:05
Comic-Con once.
20:06
>> Yeah. No, no, 100%. Where it's like I
20:09
guess like I don't know. I I don't know
20:11
this person. You know what I mean? Like
20:13
like I have a photograph of me with Doug
20:15
Bowser from like the Game Awards or
20:16
something like that. I'm like I don't
20:18
know who he is. This is [laughter] this
20:20
is a stranger to me.
20:22
>> It's crazy how well the PR works. And
20:25
and then then I think we can transition
20:27
off of this. But it's funny to me that
20:28
like somebody like Jeff Keley has not
20:30
been able to uh achieve this actually
20:32
the more I think about it.
20:34
>> It's this interesting thing where like
20:35
we all just decided that hey everyone
20:36
[ __ ] Jeff Keley. [ __ ] Jeff Keley. He's
20:38
the worst. He's the worst. He's the
20:39
worst. Phil Spencer though that's my
20:40
dad. that's my boy, you know,
20:42
>> and and it's it's this frustrating thing
20:44
where it's like um we pick and choose.
20:46
We pick and choose who are the
20:47
characters that get to be the good guys
20:49
based on literally nothing. B like like
20:52
based on like not even based on what
20:55
they have done and who they are and what
20:56
they do. It's it's ludicrous to me. But
20:59
um yeah, so
21:01
>> we promised that we were going to talk
21:02
about multiple topics in this episode.
21:05
So I say we do a clean break. I think
21:07
I'm gonna even go in and do time codes
21:10
on the YouTube video that I've ever
21:12
done.
21:12
>> I know the experience the think about
21:15
the user experience right now.
21:16
>> I'm thinking about it.
21:17
>> If you want more uh what are these what
21:20
are these called? Quality of life
21:21
updates to the Critical Error podcast. I
21:23
suggest that you go to
21:24
patreon.com/critical error. Check out
21:25
all of our bonus episodes. $5 and up
21:27
subscribers. Get access to them right
21:29
now. Posted a juicy twohour bonus pod
21:31
today reading through some creative
21:33
writing submissions from the nation.
21:34
Check it out. But Peter,
21:37
our next topic,
21:38
>> please.
21:39
>> I wanted to talk to you about this
21:40
Pokemon Fire Red and Leaf Green price
21:44
discourse. So, this the week that this
21:46
is going up, uh, it's going to be
21:47
Pokemon Day on Friday. These these these
21:50
ROMs, these ports, whatever you want to
21:52
call them, they're coming out on the
21:54
Nintendo Switch eHop. Pokemon Fire Red,
21:56
20 bones. Pokemon Leaf Green, 20 bones.
21:59
And dear god, dear god, this has taken
22:04
over the discourse surrounding these
22:06
games. This is the most prominent thing
22:08
I've seen online in the Nintendo spaces
22:10
is people saying $20 is a this is a
22:13
MORAL SCANDAL. THIS IS TOO MUCH. WHAT
22:16
WHAT DO YOU WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT
22:17
THIS?
22:17
>> Let me say this. Uh you want to know how
22:19
big this has gotten? It's that the fact
22:21
that this rolled across my desk before
22:23
we you even brought it up to me. fact
22:24
that I when we were talking about this
22:26
idea I was like uh [clears throat] dude
22:28
what's going on with this fire leaf
22:30
breathe thing cuz I'm like I've seen
22:31
people talk about this I have no context
22:32
for it. So okay so everyone's mad about
22:34
this price right and so let me ask you a
22:36
question because you are someone who's
22:37
much more plugged into Pokemon than I
22:38
am. Yeah.
22:39
>> So like
22:40
>> is it just that people are mad that the
22:42
it's $20 and that like it just they're
22:45
just mad that they're selling it again
22:46
or like what is the actual like anger
22:48
for for this?
22:49
>> My true feelings on this is are that a
22:51
something psychological is happening? I
22:53
think that um truthfully I think that
22:56
things for Pokemon fans are so good. New
22:59
games come out all of the time. The
23:02
content is exciting. There's always
23:03
things to look forward to. And frankly,
23:05
I think that complaining is just the
23:07
easiest form of discourse. And I think
23:09
that in interpersonal communications,
23:11
especially online, people are getting
23:12
lazier than ever. So, they default to
23:15
the quickest way in which they can
23:16
produce a take. And a really, really
23:19
easy take to have is, "How could you
23:21
charge me $20? I could download this ROM
23:24
right now for free. I could steal this
23:27
easily right now for free. How could you
23:30
possibly say that this is worth $20? I
23:32
think that that's it.
23:33
>> Which is like am I crazy? That's like
23:36
kind of odd. That's [laughter] like of
23:38
course it's kind of odd. So
23:39
>> it's it's like like the question of like
23:41
how good how dare you charge me for
23:42
anything? It's like well it's a product.
23:44
I don't know. Like maybe maybe I'm off
23:45
base here just because I'm not as
23:46
familiar with Pokemon, but I'm like how
23:48
do they charge you for this?
23:50
There's remakes and remasters all the
23:52
time. And I think like $20 is pretty
23:54
good for what is my understanding like
23:55
one of the most influential and best
23:56
games of all time.
23:57
>> And well, and what's crazy too is that I
23:59
see some people be like, "Oh, this
24:00
should just be available on the library
24:03
with Nintendo Switch Online." I'm like,
24:04
"No,
24:05
>> I think that's fair."
24:06
>> But then it would eclipse $20 rather
24:08
quickly. It would maybe three months it
24:11
would then it would be more true.
24:13
>> So I don't So I don't know. I I think
24:15
that um again, as I often like to do on
24:18
this show, once you make a comparison to
24:20
um another form of media, I think the
24:22
the the jester maxing nature of this
24:25
discourse kind of reveals itself to me.
24:28
So, um for example, um you know, if I
24:32
were to go out and try to buy a copy of
24:34
Pride and Prejudice right now at a
24:36
bookstore and I walk in and I tell them,
24:38
I can this this I can read this online
24:41
for free in its entirety. It is, you
24:43
know, it came out in the 1800s. There's
24:45
no copyright on this thing. It's in the
24:46
public domain. You think that they're
24:48
going to go, Jake, you're right. We
24:50
should charge $5 for this,
24:52
>> right? It's odd. It's like an odd
24:53
response. And then I guess the question
24:54
is like, so what so what is the correct
24:57
amount of money for this?
24:58
>> What is the correct amount of money?
25:00
Which is a hilarious question, right?
25:01
Because it's like, are is all of this
25:03
stink? Are we making it about the
25:05
difference between $10 and $20? Very
25:07
funny. Nintendo games have almost
25:09
throughout the entire history of their
25:12
platforms have famously retained their
25:14
value which I actually think is a good
25:16
thing because we should recognize that
25:18
there is value inherent to the thing to
25:21
the text. Are you trying to tell me that
25:24
something happened in video games over
25:27
the course of the past 20 whatever years
25:29
where the the the value that Pokemon
25:32
Fire Red and Leaf Green had when they
25:34
launched has just fallen through the
25:37
floor
25:37
>> to the point where now it is worth no
25:39
dollars? None dollars.
25:40
>> Exactly. Exactly. It It is just, you
25:43
know, all of these books that have come
25:44
out since Pride and Prejudice. Now I
25:46
look back at Pride and Prejudice and I
25:47
go that trash. That $3 book. Can I be
25:51
honest with you? I think that um
25:54
>> No, this is
25:56
>> I don't know how well how open people
25:58
are to hearing this.
26:00
>> Um I think we get a lot of [ __ ] for
26:02
free. I think sometimes people will uh
26:04
take that for granted,
26:06
>> you know, like like like I'm not saying
26:08
that I'm turning my nose up and getting
26:09
stuff for free. Thank you very much.
26:11
I'll take it to go. But like, you know,
26:14
with stuff like um free monthly games
26:18
from, you know, having your online
26:19
subscription to the PlayStation or
26:21
whatever, like we get a lot of stuff for
26:24
free. There's like free update like
26:25
content updates to games all the time.
26:27
Uh what's that? Ghost of Yote Legends or
26:30
whatever is that multiplayer update that
26:31
looks like it's a whole other game and
26:33
it's if you own the game, it's free,
26:35
right? Like there's so much free content
26:37
out there that I think that when a
26:39
studio says, "Hey, we are actually
26:41
charging money for this." I feel like
26:42
more often than not there is at least
26:45
some push back saying like, "How dare
26:47
you? How dare you charge us money for
26:50
your labor." Now, here's the thing. I
26:52
think people who are more familiar with
26:54
Pokemon are going to come be clapping
26:55
back saying like, "Well, Peter, this
26:57
already existed. This they just this
26:59
threw this on the I have no idea how
27:00
development works, right?" But like I I
27:02
think I look at this and I'm like, I
27:04
just don't think that we should
27:04
everything is free. I just don't think
27:06
everything is free all the time.
27:07
>> People make such a big stink about games
27:09
preservation. Yeah,
27:10
>> I don't know what they think that looks
27:12
like if not this. But um you know, I
27:14
think also too it's like it's like, "Oh,
27:16
it's just the ROM that I can download
27:18
right now." It's like, well, no, because
27:20
you're paying for the format, the
27:21
convenience, the preservation, the
27:22
legitimacy, the curation, the
27:24
integration in your platform. You know
27:26
what I can do on this uh Pokemon Fire
27:27
Red and Leaf Green that I can't do on my
27:28
ROM? I can put do uh game chat. You and
27:31
I could be playing Pokemon Fire Red and
27:33
Leaf Green online, seeing each other's
27:34
screens while we're playing. That's kind
27:37
of fun. And you know, there's there's
27:39
stuff in there that's like this isn't
27:41
just when people say it's just the ROM,
27:43
I find that to be such a barren argument
27:46
because I hate to break it to you, but
27:48
do you know what every single video game
27:50
you ever buy is? Right.
27:51
>> It's just a ROM.
27:52
>> Licensing the ROM. Yeah.
27:54
>> And that's lic in every situation. You
27:57
are licensing the ROM. Yeah.
27:58
>> Yeah. And you know, here's the thing,
27:59
too, like like this is not uh like
28:02
corporate apologia. Do you know what I
28:04
Like like I'm not saying like like I I
28:06
don't think that's what this is. It's
28:07
just this like recognition that like hey
28:10
like this company's trying to sell a
28:12
product and people are like mad that
28:14
they're trying to sell it at all. It
28:16
feels like cuz then it just comes back
28:17
to the question of like okay so how much
28:18
should they be charging for this $5? But
28:20
even then if it's $5 are there not going
28:22
to be people like why are they selling
28:23
this for $5? Why is it not free? you
28:25
know.
28:26
>> Yeah. That's why I think that this
28:27
discourse is interesting and I find it
28:28
to be largely illegitimate because if
28:30
your argument is I think this thing
28:33
should be $10 cheaper, is that not just
28:36
everything in your life?
28:38
>> Yeah, same man.
28:39
>> Yeah.
28:40
>> I would love if everything cheaper.
28:42
Yeah. Great.
28:42
>> And I and I think my issue is that this
28:44
very subjective consumer preference is
28:46
just masquerate masquerading as this um
28:49
objective claim of of value of I know.
28:53
Oh, I know because I can steal this ROM.
28:55
I can tell you uh what it's worth
28:58
actually,
28:59
>> which is nothing by the way, which is
29:02
nothing like the response. Yeah.
29:04
>> And yeah, so I don't know. I feel like
29:05
price discourse uh just surrounding
29:09
Nintendo at all right now is I was
29:11
talking to uh patron Abram about this
29:13
from backlog backlog banter and uh it's
29:16
really just a sign of things being so
29:19
good for Nintendo right now that people
29:21
have to gaslight themselves into
29:23
thinking that there are bigger problems
29:24
than there actually are and that's
29:26
[laughter] how I feel about this.
29:27
>> Yeah. No, I think I think that's true.
29:29
Right. It is it is a company that is
29:30
largely uh not right. I think because
29:33
that that company is so quiet with a lot
29:35
of its like internal problems, we don't
29:36
hear about them a lot until like after
29:38
like way after the fact, you know. Um,
29:40
so yeah, this is one of those things
29:41
we're like, well, we got to find
29:42
something to be mad about, right? So,
29:44
yeah.
29:44
>> And to kind of uh Did you have something
29:46
else on this?
29:47
>> No, keep going.
29:48
>> Yeah. To kind of transition into into
29:49
one of our next conversations we wanted
29:51
to have is that there is like this weird
29:53
thing right now where I feel like as a
29:55
Nintendo fan, I could not be happier.
29:58
The abundance of games coming out. I
30:00
feel like the the talk about not needing
30:02
a Nintendo Direct. I'm sitting pretty
30:05
I've got six things that are coming out
30:06
in the next few weeks that I couldn't be
30:08
more excited for. You got that Resident
30:10
Evil game around the corner. Yeah, I got
30:11
Pokemon Fire Red and Leaf Green on
30:13
Friday. Uh oh, wow. I guess that's the
30:14
same day as Resident Evil actually. It
30:16
is. But uh and then Picopia like like a
30:18
week and a half after. It's like God,
30:20
what a what a time to be alive. But um
30:22
the kind of secondary outrage concerning
30:24
these py fire red and leaf green ports
30:27
is that there is this uh feature
30:30
frustration. They did not add online
30:34
trading. They didn't add online
30:36
battling. And this I think is really
30:40
interesting because now we're going to
30:41
we're going to kind of slightly verge
30:43
into remake remaster discourse with
30:45
this.
30:46
>> Yeah. Yeah. M because my please
30:49
>> because it's this thing where it's like
30:50
okay you're mad that like this game from
30:52
what what year were those games like I'm
30:55
going to say like 2004 but that feels
30:56
wrong.
30:57
>> Oo that's a great guess though. I love
30:58
the early 2000s for those I think is
31:00
that's how I I kind of see 2002 in my
31:02
brain.
31:02
>> 2004.
31:03
>> Oh nice. Way to go.
31:04
>> Right on the money. Yes. Um but you know
31:07
uh uh they have like Okay. They're not
31:10
doing the online play because there was
31:11
not online play with these original
31:13
ones. You cannot do online battling. You
31:14
cannot do online trading. But it's kind
31:17
of like, you know, everyone's talking
31:18
about like video game preservation,
31:19
like, hey, the original version should
31:21
be up for purchase at these places, you
31:23
know, on these storefronts and whatever.
31:24
I'm like, hey, hey, here it is. Here it
31:26
is. Like, and and I guess it's a bummer
31:29
if you wanted to like do online trading
31:31
or stuff, but might I direct you to any
31:33
Pokemon game from the last decade of
31:35
your life has this [laughter] stuff?
31:37
>> There is a there is a game that takes
31:39
place in Kanto on the Nintendo Switch,
31:41
where you can do the online trading if
31:43
you so need. Is that the Hello Eevee or
31:45
what is it called?
31:46
>> That's right. Hello Eevee and Hello
31:48
Eevee. [laughter]
31:48
>> Yeah.
31:49
>> Um but yeah, it's this funny thing where
31:51
and I think it speaks to maybe this
31:52
larger issue in the Pokemon space where
31:55
this desire for every game to be
31:58
everything.
32:00
>> It is fascinating to me because like you
32:03
were saying, we are porting Fire Red and
32:06
Leaf Green to the Switch. And I think
32:08
that on the Game Boy Advance, these are
32:11
games that demanded physical proximity.
32:13
if you wanted to engage in some of the
32:16
extended features of that game. Yeah.
32:18
>> And I think that part of the messaging
32:20
in that game thematically, what is going
32:21
on, that friction, you had to know
32:24
somebody, you had to coordinate with
32:25
them, you had to, you have to show up,
32:26
that constraint. I don't really see that
32:28
as a technical failure. I see that part
32:30
of the game's themes. I see that as part
32:33
of the game's kind of like social
32:34
architecture. So to demand that online
32:37
systems be implemented into this game, I
32:40
think is to rewrite the design of that
32:43
game into something it never was and
32:44
never was supposed to be. And why why do
32:48
we need every single Pokemon game to be
32:51
this living service ecosystem with
32:54
frictionless global connectivity? There
32:57
is meaning in maintaining the original
32:59
boundaries that shaped player behavior.
33:02
And well that's that's the whole thing
33:04
about this idea of like remaster remake
33:06
whatever like
33:07
>> if you are trying to genuinely make it
33:09
so like this is how this game plays is
33:11
you remember which is like I feel like
33:13
the common thing you hear about like
33:14
remaster it's like oh it's just like you
33:16
remember
33:18
adding online play adding you know
33:20
online trading wonder trading whatever
33:22
see there's a Pokemon piece
33:23
[clears throat] of
33:25
>> very good
33:26
>> vocab I have um
33:29
>> that is not what this was and so it is
33:31
not what it what you how you remember it
33:33
because it wasn't there. And so like
33:34
exactly what you're saying, I do think
33:35
there was something to the idea of
33:37
having to meet up with someone, grab
33:38
your link cable, right? Remember like
33:40
everyone is like so excited when when
33:42
Nintendo like introduces like old pieces
33:45
of like peripheral hardware, they're
33:46
like, "Oh my gosh, we have a, you know,
33:48
the N64 controller for the Nintendo
33:50
Switch. What?" And it's like, but the
33:52
second that you're asked to do something
33:54
that is not just like the most uh what I
33:57
would say maybe obvious sort of
33:59
nostalgia stuff, it's a big problem.
34:02
>> Dude, my my my favorite version of this
34:04
would have been if they did not re
34:06
release these games on Switch and
34:07
instead released a little Game Boy
34:09
Advance and it had the games on it.
34:13
>> I kind of like this to be honest with
34:15
you. I kind of like this.
34:16
>> I know. Oh, I I hope they do something
34:17
like that in the future, like how they
34:19
did the NES Mini and all that stuff, cuz
34:20
like that with like a Game Boy would go
34:23
crazy, dude. I would Oh my god, I'd buy
34:26
one of those up.
34:26
>> Or it's it's one of those things, too.
34:28
You can fix the problem where like, hey,
34:29
these like Nintendo DS games just don't
34:31
get brought over to the Switch because
34:33
of the whole like dual screen tech stuff
34:35
that was going on. It's like,
34:37
>> why don't you just do like a why don't
34:38
you just do like a like a DS classic?
34:41
You know what I mean? It's just got a
34:42
bunch of stuff on there. Anyway,
34:43
>> god. Um, so the other the other kind of
34:45
like small part of this too is that um
34:48
I've been seeing a lot of these a lot of
34:49
these posts and a lot of these
34:50
complaints that like in Fire Red and
34:52
Leaf Green there's no dayight cycle. So
34:55
you can't get um
34:57
>> Umbreon and Espeon these Pokemon aren't
34:59
in the game because that was only in the
35:01
this version of the I'm so sorry I'm
35:04
even talking to you.
35:04
>> No, I guess I'm just like if they
35:06
weren't in the game, why aren't people
35:06
mad about it?
35:07
>> Well, listen, man. Listen, it's because
35:09
people see they they've just like bought
35:12
into this Pokemon thing. But I think
35:14
Pokemon games, the modern ones, have
35:17
trained its players into believing that
35:19
all of its systems should be entirely
35:22
smoothed out. There should be no
35:24
barriers and you should be able to uh
35:26
people have been trained to see every
35:27
single game as a checklist. And they've
35:30
lost their relationship to the game
35:32
itself in favor of seeing it as this
35:34
larger tapestry of filling in all of the
35:37
boxes. And so nobody talks about these
35:40
games. there, dude. Ever since these
35:42
games got got announced, there hasn't
35:44
been a single piece talking about the
35:46
value that these games actually have.
35:48
And instead, the entirety of the
35:50
conversation has been about like
35:53
comparing them to these modern, entirely
35:56
smoothed over Pokemon games that exist
35:59
now rather than understanding the value
36:01
of what it was.
36:02
>> Yeah. No, I completely agree. So, here's
36:04
a question then, too. Uh, sort of
36:06
piggybacking off this this conversation
36:08
because I feel like this has been coming
36:09
up. I mean, specifically Nintendo. This
36:12
is something we've had people sort of
36:13
ask us to talk about in our Discord
36:14
server over the past few months. If you
36:17
want access to that, patreon.comcritical
36:19
error, $5
36:21
member of the nation. Um, game key
36:24
cards.
36:25
>> The fact that like a lot of these games
36:27
uh don't have like when you buy the
36:29
cartridge, the game's not on there or or
36:32
you know, it's it's the the
36:36
half of it and you have to download the
36:38
rest and whatever. And it's interesting
36:39
to me that people are seemingly upset
36:40
about this with the Switch 2
36:41
specifically because that's been
36:43
happening everywhere else for like
36:47
more than a decade like like since the
36:50
PlayStation 4 and Xbox One came out in
36:52
like 2011 or 12 or whatever it was, you
36:54
know, like it's just so interesting to
36:56
me that this seems to be like this huge
36:57
conversation right now specifically. You
36:59
know what I mean?
37:00
>> Yeah. I mean, listen, the the again,
37:03
this to me just feels like a very
37:06
kneejerk position to have where you
37:09
don't have to like do any research and
37:12
everybody will just kind of agree with
37:14
you. I can't tell you how many times
37:15
I've I've heard or read people be like,
37:17
"I'm refusing to buy game key cards
37:20
because I don't really own the game."
37:22
And I'm like, "But surely, do you not
37:24
buy any digital games? Do you not buy
37:27
>> That's the problem, right? Where it's
37:28
like like here's the thing. I'm not
37:30
saying that that's good. I think it's in
37:34
fact I think it's bad that we don't own
37:35
anything. I think I think that's not
37:37
good.
37:38
>> However,
37:40
>> that's just if you want to engage with
37:41
the indust video games, it's just a fact
37:43
of what it is, right? For for the most
37:45
part,
37:46
>> right? And it's and it's funny. It's
37:47
like because even even with physical
37:49
games, I've I've heard this this term
37:51
the burden of storage is now placed on
37:53
the player. And I find that
37:55
>> I find that to be um a bit of a goofy
37:58
position to hold just because the burden
38:02
of deleting a bunch of games that you're
38:05
not playing simultaneously for the sake
38:07
of making space for a new one. I I don't
38:10
necessarily know if that's a real
38:11
burden. And the uh the idea of like, oh,
38:14
one day I won't be able to download
38:17
these Nintendo games. Well, listen,
38:19
chum. Weren't you the same person that
38:21
just was just telling me that you could
38:22
download the ROM to Pokemon Fire Red and
38:24
Ruby Green? So, pick a side. But no, but
38:27
but really, I think the thing that's
38:29
most funny to about this to me is this
38:32
fear of the game being taken away, the
38:34
game that you bought. Now, the furthest
38:36
back that we can go right now with like
38:38
these kind of Nintendo online platforms
38:40
is maybe something like the 3DS, right?
38:43
And if I go back on my 3DS right now and
38:46
I try to go to the 3DS eHop, I cannot
38:48
purchase a game. But you know what I can
38:50
still do, Peter? I can download every
38:52
single game that I did purchase still on
38:54
my 3DS today.
38:56
>> I think it's it's a
38:59
it's really the fear of the unknown, I
39:01
think. Is that what what's freaking
39:02
people out? Um because it's it's like
39:06
well technically yes you're right that
39:08
you can do that right now Jake but and
39:11
this is where the fear is but what about
39:13
in 10 years you know what about what
39:16
about in 15 and it's this thing where I
39:18
understand that fear and I think that
39:19
fear is like legitimate because it's
39:21
like yeah eventually this is these are
39:24
services are going to shut down right
39:25
like not to bring it back to Xbox but
39:28
I'm like hey is Xbox going to be around
39:30
next year so if you bought a game on
39:32
their platform like and that all just
39:34
disappears because Microsoft decides
39:35
actually we're just hammering money over
39:37
this like what happens with that? I do
39:39
think that's a that's a valid concern,
39:41
but it is this sort of thing where it's
39:43
like, yeah, I just don't know like what
39:46
the like like game key cards
39:48
specifically, like how does that all
39:49
play into this in terms of like Yeah,
39:51
>> I think that's the relevant thing in
39:52
this discussion because the online
39:54
reaction often frames g game key cards
39:56
as this uniquely dystopian escalation of
39:59
video games, but that's it's just a very
40:02
like direct continuation of the same
40:05
licensing logic that undergurs every
40:08
single contemporary marketplace. So, I
40:11
think if you're going to care about game
40:12
key cards, there is maybe a more
40:16
structured way to support a cause about
40:19
digital ownership, about like, you know,
40:21
something you might actually be able to
40:23
control. Because the thing about the
40:24
thing about digital key cards is that I
40:26
think if we had um more stringent
40:29
legislation around digital ownership,
40:31
they actually are not a problem inherent
40:33
to themselves. And you could actually
40:37
own your digital products
40:39
>> even if they are digital. And I think
40:41
the fear around game key cards is that
40:45
um they people see them as this kind of
40:49
phasing out of physical cards and
40:52
physical cards are are real ownership
40:54
whereas digital is not. And I think
40:55
people need to reframe that and say how
40:58
can we make digital ownership more real?
41:00
I think that would be a much more
41:02
valuable road to go down. But also, just
41:05
personally, I would like to throw my hat
41:07
in the ring to defend the game key card.
41:10
>> For an entire generation, maybe maybe
41:13
longer, I saw video game publishers
41:15
trying to sell a code in the box.
41:17
>> Mhm.
41:18
>> You cannot tell me that the game key
41:21
card is not an alternative to the
41:23
physical cartridge. The game key card is
41:26
the alternative to the code in the box.
41:28
And the game key card is better than the
41:30
code in the box.
41:32
I I would probably agree.
41:34
>> I can give you my game key card and now
41:36
you have the game. I can resell my game
41:39
key card. I can take it back to the
41:40
store. The The only thing you're losing
41:42
out on is I can I can have me and my
41:45
brother have the same single game key
41:47
card. We both download the games onto
41:49
our Switches and then we just give each
41:50
other the card when we want to play it.
41:51
This is this is convenient. I see the
41:54
need for this. And more important than
41:56
anything else, I think something that
41:57
gets um kind of ignored in a lot of this
41:59
game qard discussion is that I've seen
42:01
the director of Final Fantasy 7 remake
42:03
on Switch come out here and go, "Oh, we
42:07
actually couldn't put this game on a
42:08
Switch 2 cartridge because the ability
42:10
to stream data from the cartridge to the
42:12
system was not fast enough." So, we had
42:15
to use a game key card to download the
42:17
game onto the system so that we could
42:19
make it perform the way that we wanted
42:20
it to perform. And like at that point,
42:24
who is your issue actually with? Is it
42:26
with these is it with these cheapo third
42:27
parties or is it with maybe Nintendo?
42:30
And that's that's an interesting
42:31
question. Now listen listen everybody.
42:34
Do I think that like
42:36
>> some some of these companies are being
42:37
cheapos by having their really small
42:39
games on these game key cards that could
42:41
otherwise be on physical carts. And it's
42:43
totally okay to say, "Hey, you're
42:44
cheaping out. You should put this on a
42:45
physical cartridge." I think that that's
42:47
totally fine. But at the same time, if
42:50
if there is no game key card, there
42:52
probably wouldn't have been a physical
42:53
version of that game at all. It probably
42:55
would have just been a digital only
42:56
game. That's my That's my
42:58
>> Yeah. No, I agree. It's interesting you
42:59
mentioned like, you know, talking about
43:00
like video game preservation and and
43:02
stuff like this. Um here here's
43:04
something that I kind of wanted to talk
43:05
to you about like in um high guard has
43:09
been such like a like a hot topic over
43:11
the past like what three to six weeks
43:13
here which is kind of interesting
43:15
because it seems that like people it's
43:17
more interesting to talk about the
43:18
talking about high guard than it is to
43:19
actually talk about playing high guard
43:21
which is interesting because I actually
43:22
we you know we're not shy about it we're
43:24
fans of the game. Um, but it seems like
43:27
there's been this this sort of
43:28
conversation that's been brewing a lot
43:30
lately. And with Highguard, um, there's
43:32
been this sort of it's been brought to
43:35
the forefront again. And do you
43:37
remember? Okay. Do you know what King of
43:39
Meat is?
43:40
>> I think you do cuz I me and Christian
43:42
have talked about it.
43:43
>> Typically this kind of language stays
43:45
confined to the bedroom.
43:46
>> Okay. Okay, Jake. [laughter] Um, no. So,
43:49
King of Meat is this is this like uh
43:52
live service game from Amazon from the
43:54
Amazon game studios. Um that was like a
43:57
like a Fall Guys type platformer thing,
44:00
whatever. Uh it launched I think at the
44:02
end of last year maybe. Yeah, the end of
44:04
last year. Um and they announced, hey,
44:06
we're shutting this thing down. It had
44:07
like alltime Steam peak of like 320
44:10
concurrent players. Like this thing like
44:11
flopped hard. Um, and it's interesting
44:15
because I saw like I saw a lot of people
44:17
sort of um eulogizing and and talking
44:20
about like, oh, it's such a shame that
44:22
that this game is shutting down and all
44:24
this sort of thing. Um, and this is
44:26
removed, by the way, from the idea that
44:28
like people are going to lose their jobs
44:29
because of course that's a shame and
44:30
everything, but I saw a lot of people
44:31
saying yes.
44:32
>> Mhm.
44:33
>> Oh, sorry. I saw a lot of people sort of
44:35
saying this like
44:37
>> thing that basically boiled down to like
44:40
all games should essentially be eternal.
44:42
you know that all live service games are
44:44
meant to that need to be supported and
44:46
need to exist forever. And I'm curious
44:48
what you think about that. Like I I
44:51
played King of Me at Summer GameFest
44:53
last year and I didn't like it at all. I
44:56
we had 45 minutes with it and after
44:57
about 12 I was looking over at Christian
44:59
and I was like how can we politely make
45:02
this stop? [laughter] How can we
45:03
politely like exit this situation?
45:06
>> Okay. Um,
45:07
>> so I think that, you know, because of
45:11
the kind of social media,
45:15
um, political justice that people like
45:18
to espouse, we often times lose like the
45:22
ideology at the core of some of our
45:24
beliefs in favor of just kind of being
45:26
performative. So, for example, this is
45:27
going to sound like a stupid question,
45:29
but why are layoffs bad? Why are layoffs
45:32
bad?
45:32
>> Because people lose their livelihoods.
45:34
>> People lose their livelihoods. And
45:35
what's interesting is could we imagine a
45:38
world in which there are more social
45:41
safety nets in which people are more
45:42
secure where one losing their video game
45:46
developing job is not a death sentence
45:50
for them
45:51
>> right
45:51
>> and that I think is what gets lost here
45:54
is that when if if we had universal
45:57
healthcare and could you know like I I I
46:01
knew that I was always going to have a
46:03
roof over my head and food on the table
46:05
then maybe these layoffs wouldn't be so
46:07
bad. And I think that it's um
46:12
under in that world, if we were in that
46:15
world, we would be able to understand
46:17
that sometimes layoffs happen.
46:19
>> Yeah.
46:20
>> And and but the thing is is that we
46:22
don't live in that world,
46:22
>> right? Because if everyone is having
46:24
their needs met, then I think then job
46:26
security is not this like thing that you
46:27
need to like white knuckle grip on to
46:29
for all, you know, all of time. But I
46:31
guess like my question about it like is
46:33
is not necessarily about the loss of
46:36
jobs because of course that's
46:37
frustrating and irritating and sad and
46:38
all that but it's more about this idea
46:40
that like I saw people saying like damn
46:42
it's such a shame King of Meat is
46:43
shutting down and I'm like such a shame
46:45
320 people played this ever
46:48
>> there is this um there is a reflexive
46:50
almost moralization of the commercial
46:52
failure. It's like the the the game
46:55
being bad does not negate the like the
46:57
real human cost of its collapse
46:59
obviously, but the developer suffering
47:02
also does not make King of Meat good.
47:05
>> No, that like that's the thing. It's
47:07
it's like I feel this way about Highgard
47:08
too cuz again you and I like it, but
47:10
also at the end of the day that was a
47:11
freeto-play game that had more than
47:13
100,000 people play it and it's like
47:15
been dipping below a thousand every
47:17
single day.
47:17
>> So Preservation Discourse does this all
47:20
the time. I actually I feel like we just
47:22
saw this with Anthem where uh
47:24
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
47:25
>> the the discourse drifts into this kind
47:27
of sentimental flattening where any live
47:30
service game then become in its death
47:32
becomes a martyr for what could have
47:35
been. And the thing that people I think
47:38
forget is that like a cultural
47:39
preservation of anything is not about um
47:42
canonization. It's about recordkeeping.
47:44
And some preserved works are
47:48
masterpieces, but some are cautionary
47:49
tales. Yeah.
47:50
>> And it's like
47:53
you the game being accessible for
47:56
everybody is not necessarily the goal of
47:59
preservation. There's an act of curation
48:01
there. Sometimes you need to
48:03
>> and sometimes it's just the the the
48:05
media made around something so that our
48:07
understanding of it can be clearer when
48:09
we move forward in history. And I think
48:11
a failure of something like Anthem is
48:13
that I feel like all of a sudden nobody
48:16
liked Anthem more than when it died,
48:18
dude. And I was like, damn, we're just
48:20
we just have no idea how to talk about
48:23
something in like an honest way. We just
48:25
have to make it part of this thing that
48:27
we think is like the right way to talk
48:28
about stuff. Yeah.
48:30
>> Yeah. No, I completely agree. I
48:31
completely agree. [snorts]
48:33
[sighs] H Jake, I'm going to give us
48:37
both. I have on my phone 30 seconds
48:41
and I'm gonna give you 30 seconds to
48:42
speak on this topic and I'm going to
48:43
take 30 seconds to speak on this topic
48:45
and then and then we'll just move on. Is
48:49
is that is that fair?
48:50
>> Let's let's do it. Let's get it done.
48:52
Let's get it done. I want to put a I
48:53
want to put a trigger warning here uh
48:56
for for our upcoming discussion. Uh this
49:00
is this is the most uh I think I think
49:03
personally chided that I will feel by
49:06
anything I ever discuss on this podcast.
49:08
I apologize to the room. What is what is
49:11
coming out of me is pure emotion. You're
49:12
you're used to the analysis. You're used
49:14
to the critical take. That's you're not
49:16
going to find that here. This is this is
49:17
this is raw media emotion. All right.
49:21
>> All right. Let me hit you with this
49:22
prompt. Are you ready?
49:23
>> Uh-huh.
49:24
>> Okay. Magic the Gathering. Go. I am so
49:27
tired of seeing Magic the Gathering
49:29
covered on these video game websites. It
49:31
sickens me. Every other post is thank
49:33
you. Thank you Magic the Gathering for
49:36
sending me tons and tons of cardboard. I
49:38
just can't wait to unbox it. And I think
49:40
it is a little weird that these
49:42
freelancers are getting paid are getting
49:44
given free stuff so that they can
49:46
generate revenue for themselves by
49:48
writing articles about Magic the
49:50
Gathering completely laundering it as an
49:53
experience on these websites where it
49:54
doesn't even fit in. IT DOESN'T EVEN FIT
49:56
IN IT.
49:58
I just think it's a little weird, isn't
50:00
it? That just like [snorts] uh
50:04
if any other industry I think received
50:06
gifts all the time all the time. If if
50:09
the people covering that industry just
50:10
received like gifts like these giant
50:13
care packages from these major companies
50:15
like every I don't know two months and
50:18
then those people had to post thank you.
50:20
Thank you for these cards. Thank you for
50:22
the wonderful gift. I just think a lot
50:24
of other people would be really weirded
50:25
out by that and it doesn't happen in
50:27
games. It doesn't. What the [ __ ]
50:29
>> On a completely on a completely separate
50:31
topic.
50:31
>> Yeah. Go ahead.
50:32
>> Do you think we use the word coverage
50:34
too liberally?
50:35
>> Yeah.
50:36
>> Okay. All right.
50:37
>> All right. I think it's a catchall. I
50:38
think it's [laughter] all Okay. Here's
50:40
something else. Here's something else.
50:41
Um I was thinking about this the other
50:43
day. Uh, I don't think this word is
50:46
lazy, but it is a word that I've clocked
50:48
that I think I use a lot and I think a
50:51
lot of people in games use a lot. I
50:53
think there's a time and a place for it,
50:55
but I think I'm I think we need to be
50:57
more careful about the word visceral.
51:00
>> Oh, Peter, yes. Vis tell me more.
51:03
>> It's not lazy, right? It's it's not like
51:05
it's it's it's not a word that means
51:06
nothing. It has meaning and and all this
51:08
stuff, but it's it's not like saying
51:10
like, "Oh, it's not for me." It's not
51:11
like espousing the the uh role of of
51:15
doing the work to the to anyone else,
51:16
but it is a word that I think people use
51:18
a lot like it's so viscerally satisfying
51:20
or the combat is so visceral and it's a
51:23
word that works, but I think it's
51:25
overused and I think is often used as a
51:27
crutch
51:29
>> for writers.
51:31
>> I mean, listen, if we're just talking
51:32
about words we don't like,
51:34
>> go right ahead.
51:35
>> I think I think you're right. I think we
51:36
have to stop lying about the experience
51:38
that we're having playing games. You
51:40
know, I see this stuff all the time
51:42
about like it it it it took my bra
51:45
breath away. It genuinely shocked me.
51:47
I'm on the edge of my seat. This that
51:50
this isn't working. It's not working.
51:51
It's not working on me. I've never had
51:53
that. No, no, no, no. Listen, not enough
51:55
people are putting in their in their
51:58
reviews of video games
52:00
the feeling of a clenched butthole.
52:04
>> You know it. You know the feeling. We're
52:06
playing Apex. You know what I'm talking
52:07
about.
52:07
>> Dude, I you could you know, you could
52:10
turn coal into diamond for me when uh
52:12
when it's when it's getting up there.
52:13
Jake, I got a question for you. Are you
52:15
familiar with the website
52:16
patreon.com/critical
52:18
error?
52:18
>> Oh my god. One of my favorite one of my
52:19
favorite links to type in in its
52:21
entirety.
52:22
>> In its entirety. Cuz if you go there,
52:24
you can join the Critical Error Nation
52:26
for just five smackaroos. 1/4 one
52:31
quarter the cost of Pokemon Leaf Green
52:33
or Fire [laughter] Red. Nintendo Switch.
52:37
Uh, patreon.com/critical. You can join
52:40
our nation, get a whole slew of bonus
52:42
content. We have, this is, I think, like
52:44
our 33rd or 34th main episode. We've got
52:47
just as many uh, in fact, more bonus
52:50
episodes on there, uh, including some
52:53
wonderful discussions. We had our book
52:54
club that we kind of wrapped up this
52:56
week by by reading the micromemoirs
52:58
written by the nation. Um, a whole lot
53:01
of stuff on there. every week our our we
53:03
do a bonus episode and and those are
53:05
some of my favorite chats that that Jake
53:06
you and I have throughout the entire
53:08
week and we talk a lot. Um, but before
53:11
we get there, I would love before we uh
53:13
move on to a written piece from you,
53:15
Jake, I would love I would love to just
53:17
give a quick shout out to some members
53:19
of the nation. The members at the Jake
53:22
and Peter tier that is the highest tier
53:24
on our Patreon members like
53:29
Andrew Bular, members like Evan Sne,
53:33
members like Mo
53:36
and Robert Kesada. Thank you so much for
53:38
your support. Without your financial,
53:40
monetary support, we would not be able
53:42
to do this show the way that we do it.
53:46
>> Sound effect.
53:47
>> This week,
53:48
>> I'm going into the sound effect wanting
53:50
to channel to the best of my ability the
53:54
Pokemon rap.
53:56
>> Oh,
53:57
>> are you you're familiar?
53:58
>> Electro Digite Man. Yes.
54:02
That's what I'm gonna That's what
54:03
[laughter] I'm That's what I'm going to
54:04
channel and we'll see we'll see how it
54:06
turns out. Got to catch them. Got to
54:09
catch them.
54:10
>> Andrew Vulcar, Anel, Trane, Mayo, Robert
54:13
Kada, Conor True, Love, Danny Disaster,
54:15
Dave Perry, Jacob Richter, Jared Keno,
54:18
Sam Woods, Cole Mitch D, Hin Stick,
54:20
Mystic.
54:21
>> You've got something uh written that
54:22
you've prepared for us?
54:23
>> I do. I've got something written. So, um
54:26
I my my heart has been captured lately
54:28
by my um superhero fiction novel. I've
54:32
been going back
54:33
>> and I um have completely kind of
54:37
rewritten some of the starting
54:39
circumstances, my my my protagonist's uh
54:41
kind of position in the world. And I and
54:44
it's funny, I think I was working on
54:45
this this this book for about a year and
54:47
I got it into a place where I liked it,
54:49
but um
54:51
>> things are starting to finally click
54:53
into place now and I feel like I'm I I
54:55
see it more clearly than I ever have.
54:57
But
54:58
>> what I will be sharing with us today is
54:59
a little bit of a continuation from uh
55:01
the last time I shared part of this
55:02
book. So if you remember our main
55:04
character, Seth, he has the power of
55:06
twiddle fingers.
55:07
>> Yes.
55:08
>> Extremely dextrous hands. He works at
55:10
the pretzel shop in the mall. Um the
55:12
only thing you need to know for this
55:14
particular section
55:15
>> is that he has been talking to a
55:18
customer who their twist, the word for
55:20
superpowers in this world, has um
55:22
resulted in this man looking like uh a
55:25
turtle. He is a bit of a turtle man.
55:27
>> Okay.
55:27
>> And that's just I think there's like one
55:28
line in there so just so you just so you
55:30
can place it.
55:31
>> But we're introducing a new character.
55:33
So here we go.
55:37
>> I spot something in the mall outside the
55:39
pretzel shop that stops me in my tracks.
55:42
A villain.
55:45
Okay. Okay. Wait. Not a villain, but a
55:47
bad guy. Well, okay. A guy that I don't
55:49
like. A guy I would describe without
55:51
hesitation as bad. Lowercase.
55:55
All stinking summer, he's walked into
55:57
old gar funkies like he owns it.
56:00
Annoyingly handsome, arrogantly tall,
56:04
jerkishly broad shoulders, perfect hair
56:07
that never moves. No matter how humid it
56:11
is, no matter how much wind, not even
56:13
when he throws HIS HEAD BACK AND LAUGHS,
56:16
I have gathered against my own sense of
56:19
taste
56:21
that girls love these qualities. He gets
56:25
pretzels with a different girl every
56:28
weekend. Sometimes two in a single day.
56:31
Always hot, too. The pretzels and the
56:33
girls. Worst of all, through loud
56:37
secondhand humiliation, I have learned
56:40
that his name is
56:43
Seth. My name.
56:46
I can pretty much count on hot Seth
56:48
showing up once a shift to perform his
56:51
rituals. loudly spoiling movies I
56:54
haven't seen yet. Discussing lacrosse
56:57
like it's geopolitics, ranking
56:59
celebrities he thinks he could beat up.
57:01
But his signature move is flicking salt
57:04
packets everywhere. It sounds harmless.
57:07
Surely, who cares? But he does it like
57:09
he believes these salt packets exist for
57:11
sport, and he has never once considered
57:13
that they contain salt that people might
57:15
want. I must be staring because my new
57:19
twisted turtle friend turns just in time
57:22
to see hot Seth stomp in wearing high
57:25
tops with a green swoosh. The exact pair
57:28
I have been eyeing in the foot doctor
57:30
window for weeks. A tall goon in a
57:33
hoodie beanie shorts and flip-flops
57:35
trails behind him. No girl surprisingly.
57:40
Yo ho ho. Hot Seth bellows like a douchy
57:44
Santa Claus dog. You are a turtle.
57:50
Hey man, I jump in. Please be polite
57:52
too. Or what? He barks. I'm twisted too.
57:56
It's cool. It's okay, the turtle man
57:59
says mildly. I was just going right. The
58:02
oven dings behind me perfectly on Q.
58:04
Right, I say, plating the pretzels and
58:06
sliding them over. And that will be all.
58:09
Wait. One of the the goons calls,
58:11
pushing forward. He grabs the large cup
58:14
of water that I had prepared for my
58:15
turtle friend and shoves the man aside.
58:19
Fishy needs a drink, he says, throwing
58:22
the cup. My arm juts out. The tiniest
58:26
drops kiss my pinky, then my ring
58:29
finger, then middle, then thumb. In
58:31
order like a roll call, I feel the wave
58:34
strain in the air, barely holding itself
58:37
together. And in an instant, I command
58:39
all of the liquid downward. A clean
58:42
splash. The water doesn't even graze the
58:44
turtle man's shoes. Hot Seth shoves his
58:48
friend, grabs him by the collar. Sorry,
58:51
he forces out, teeth gritted, glancing
58:53
at my name tag. Still incorrect. Seat,
58:57
hot Seth says.
59:00
A wave of aid heat hits me like I'm nose
59:02
tonse with a space heater. Each blink
59:05
sticks. I can almost hear the spilled
59:07
water simmering at his feet. Hot. Seth
59:10
is, of course,
59:13
hot.
59:14
He escorts his friend out. I look down.
59:17
The pretzels now are slightly
59:19
overcooked. Want me to fix these? I ask.
59:22
That was very impressive, the turtle man
59:24
says. Yes, very, very impressive. Uh,
59:28
oh, oh, no, I say quickly. You know,
59:30
twiddle fingers.
59:32
May I have a bag? He asks, gesturing. As
59:35
I bag them, he studies me. Your
59:37
instincts, he trails off, then nods at
59:39
the pretzels. Ah, yes. Good boy. Have a
59:42
good day, sir. He pats his pockets. Hey,
59:44
I say on me.
59:48
Uh, and he folds a crisp bill and drops
59:52
it into the tip jar, which previously
59:54
contained exactly 9 cents. I squint at
59:58
the modeled glass as the turtleman
1:00:00
shuffles off and immediately fish the
1:00:02
bill out.
1:00:04
a hundred.
1:00:06
The paper feels identical to every
1:00:08
dollar $1 bill I have ever held. The
1:00:11
same fibers, the same faint coolness of
1:00:13
ink, the same raised print. Except this
1:00:16
one is worth 100 of those losers. I
1:00:19
close the shop nearly three hours early.
1:00:23
I think my real life starts now.
1:00:26
>> THERE YOU GO.
1:00:26
>> AH, loved this.
1:00:27
>> Oh, good. Fun.
1:00:28
>> Love this. No, this is great. Uh, this
1:00:30
has been my favorite. Previously, my
1:00:32
other Twiddle Fingers one was my
1:00:34
favorite thing you've read on on the
1:00:35
pod. Uh I I think you just do such a
1:00:37
good job at like
1:00:40
>> here's this kind of like mundane guy who
1:00:42
does have this like special thing about
1:00:44
him, but like no one really sees it, you
1:00:47
know, except for this except for this
1:00:49
turtle guy. He kind of gets it, right?
1:00:51
And the idea of like there being like
1:00:54
hot Seth and everything he does is just
1:00:56
a little bit better than you. You know
1:00:58
what I mean? or or and I also appreciate
1:00:59
the the fact that it [snorts] all comes
1:01:01
from the lens of like you getting this
1:01:03
guy pretzels.
1:01:05
>> Do you know what I mean? So it's like
1:01:06
>> he brings a new girl with him every time
1:01:09
>> to get pretzels. It's just it's like
1:01:12
like I just had to shut up and get him
1:01:14
his pretzel.
1:01:15
>> Like I'm just I'm just such a small
1:01:18
component of this guy's like douchy life
1:01:21
and I hate it. But I have to get him
1:01:23
pretzels every day. It's it's good. This
1:01:25
is this is very fun.
1:01:26
>> Thank you. Yeah. I feel like I found a
1:01:28
really good tone for this and just kind
1:01:30
of like how the humor works and how it
1:01:33
is like this there's like this this
1:01:35
almost like angry nature to the humor
1:01:37
that I think like keeps the momentum
1:01:39
going. Yes.
1:01:40
>> And um like that's really fun. And I
1:01:43
don't know writing writing like one of
1:01:44
these long form things like this. It's
1:01:47
there's all this stuff in here that I'm
1:01:49
really excited for people to see when
1:01:51
it's kind of like in its final form
1:01:53
because um you know I think Seth, our
1:01:56
main character,
1:01:58
>> he really only reads as the main
1:02:00
character because we are with him and we
1:02:03
are seeing things through his
1:02:04
perspective. But like otherwise he
1:02:07
really is uh you know this is at the
1:02:09
beginning of the book where we're really
1:02:10
just with him. But as his world gets
1:02:12
bigger, he gets so much smaller. And um
1:02:16
you'll come to find that there was a
1:02:17
reason Hot Seth was coming to the
1:02:19
pretzel shop over and over and over
1:02:21
again.
1:02:22
>> And uh there was a reason he was there
1:02:23
that day.
1:02:24
>> And uh stuff with this stuff with this
1:02:26
turtle man. There's there's stuff there
1:02:28
as well. So um yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm
1:02:30
excited for the future of this. But um
1:02:32
yeah, I don't know. I just I figured out
1:02:34
some plot stuff that is really informing
1:02:37
some aspects of the character that I
1:02:39
really struggled with before. just kind
1:02:41
of how to get everything in the right
1:02:42
place. And now now I feel like I'm there
1:02:44
and the and it's just like
1:02:46
>> I don't know this this scene of like
1:02:49
>> throwing a throwing a a cup of water at
1:02:51
the turtle guy, grabbing the water in
1:02:54
the air and you know splashing it down.
1:02:56
I'm just like ah I'm like there. I see.
1:02:59
Yeah. So
1:03:00
>> yeah.
1:03:01
>> No, I love this. I like I said I like
1:03:03
every time we get get a new piece of
1:03:04
this. So
1:03:06
>> um hey, thanks for listening.
1:03:09
Like and subscribe. See you maybe over
1:03:11
on patreon.com/critical error. See you
1:03:14
in the Discord.
1:03:24
Bye bye.