Latest / The MOOD Podcast / Navigating Pain and Creativity: Finding What Really Matters in Art, with Gabriella Morton, E017

Transcript

Navigating Pain and Creativity: Finding What Really Matters in Art, with Gabriella Morton, E017 · The MOOD Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: In this episode of the Mood Podcast, I sat down with Gabriella Morton.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Now, like some of our guests, ella took a little persuading to come onto the show, but I'm so glad she agreed to sit down in front of the cameras and the microphone with me.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: It was worth it, and this is why I enjoy doing this podcast so much.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: It allows us to dive into the minds of people in the creative space that we might not be able to access normally through other means.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Furthermore, it allows discourse around the topics and industry that we love, as well as tapping into the why behind some of our favourite and most inspirational artists out there.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: So please, if you can find it in your heart, to hit the like and subscribe buttons, whichever platform you're watching or listening on, I'd be forever grateful.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: This will not only allow me to continue bringing you these podcasts, but will also give me more opportunities to attract big guests from around the world onto the show.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Now, ella's story is a fascinating one and something different to most others out there.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Her photography is inquisitive, introspective and often surreal.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Her approach has evolved over a decade of exploration through human experience and circumstance, and she manipulates her imagination and conceptualisation into powerful and meaningful artwork that inspires many others, as well as the more philanthropic receivers of her work.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: So please enjoy, and I hope you're as inspired as much as I was.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Do you do much video stuff?
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: I went through a period where I was doing like a fair bit, but mainly kind of like assisting in other groups and like I've got a pretty big interest in documentary.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: I worked on a documentary for about three years, like prior to COVID, but it wasn't like a full time thing, it was more just kind of like on the side behind the camera.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, always behind the camera, always behind the camera.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: But sometimes you said you fill in for like test shots.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Oh no, you know, just if you're like when you're testing the settings for someone and you're like just making sure the focus is all right, or like the positioning of the seat or like the microphone, but yeah, that whole process, kind of flashing back to that whole process just through the like audio.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Stop here.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Oh my God, audio.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Well, you're not a test subject today.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: You are our guest, so it's total pleasure to have you.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I know we've been trying to capture the best time and, I guess, willingness on your part I know you're a little bit apprehensive to be on the show.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I know you're lucky, you got me.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: No, I know it's an absolute privilege, so thank you for it.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Thank you for coming.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you're on your lap.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Well, this is little Tui, and I don't know if she's going to be a nuisance, so we'll see how she goes, but I believe I owe it to you and Fii to have her bring so many smiles into my life.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Not so much Fii, much more Fii.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Not so much me, much more Fii, much more me.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: I know, yeah, I haven't seen her.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, fii, my wife rescued her from the streets, which is becoming a bit of common place here in Bali.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: We have another one who's in boarding at the moment getting ready, so we'll probably have her in our house at some point.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: I wonder if she'll make it onto the podcast We'll just put her in a seat and see what she says.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: I mean obviously no limited amount about you.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: We've only met once and that was over a beer.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Very briefly, with Finn back in.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I think sometime last year.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: You've been in a relationship with Finn for a long time, and you've been in a relationship with Finn for a long time and I think it's been a long time since and obviously absolutely in love with all of your artwork Can you tell us like a bit?
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: of an inception story about where it came from and how it got to kind of who you are as an artist today.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, do you have like two years, take as long as you need.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: I think it's been very privileged about just kind of always had that knowledge and like the gear and the questions and everything.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: It's always been there for me.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: But although it's kind of all I've ever done is always been something camera orientated, it's definitely been like quite a diverse journey because I've tried everything from like products to events to tourism, to you know, I've kind of tried the whole mixed bag and now kind of landed somewhere conceptually in the middle of I don't even know like what I can label that now.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Like has it become creative direction?
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Or like is it still photography?
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not too sure, but it's always been to do with cameras and kind of progressively gone more into like nature and outdoors rather than like commercial stuff.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because if you look at your, if anyone looks at your work which I hope they do it looks like you kind of intermingle commercial work with almost surrealism.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you picked up on the surrealism that I take as a compliment.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: That's because I love surrealism.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely love it.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I think it wasn't always like that, like I think it definitely started more like documentative and then obviously like a lot of work through tourism and like outdoors.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't really I couldn't say in a couple sentences how I ended up there, but it's just like a progression of a whole sequence of events and then you just kind of end up where you are.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: That's a great thing to have a journey to get to where you are, and I don't know whether it's interesting.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: One of the first kind of things I was told as from a mentoring photography individual was work on your elevator pitch, like oh my gosh.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if I agree with that anymore.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: I'm so intimidated by that.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: That's probably like my least favorite.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: Because you didn't ask me I was doing the entire world.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I'm not asking you, but the principle of having an elevator pitch.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: I mean I don't know whether that's a good thing to have or not as a photographer, because suddenly you're now boxing yourself in almost yeah exactly.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: That's exactly how I find it, because I think I've got like quite a diverse set of skills, and if I have to just like condense that into 30 seconds, I'm like, which self am I presenting today?
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Like who am I?
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: So I, yeah, I should get better at it, though I know that like I don't know, probably just from like a business standpoint, it's not very good to not be able to like present yourself in a, in a small little elevator.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: I don't think I'd be very good at that, but at the same time, I guess that's not really where my interests are lying either so it hasn't been a problem yet.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Well, talk to us about that, like where, where do you fit in, kind of the commercial side of photography, and you know how do you make money essentially, yeah for sure.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: So I would say, maybe in like 2018 or so, I started doing like a lot of volunteer work with my photography.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: I think I was.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I was searching for something more than you know, just pretty pictures, and you know that started with like even like photographing puppies to help them get adopted.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Or I did like a work on a documentary called Project Blue, which we were filming for about three years and I helped other friends with documentaries on like social work and I think I was always looking for something more meaningful than yeah, like just something being aesthetic or something being pretty.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: And yeah, after working on those things through like volunteer work, I started realizing like the power of vocation through like visuals and that a lot of people are visual learners and don't necessarily like digest things in terms of like reading a book, and so for me personally, like if I wanted to ever digest anything that was like scientific, I always liked watching like real graphic, like YouTube videos and yeah, love documentary.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: That's just how I like to consume my facts, and so I kind of tried to tie that in with my photography for a little bit.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: And when I was finding clients I was like, how could I, you know?
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: It's like trying to find your icky guy or whatever.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: It's like your vocation and what you're good at and what you love and what can essentially make you money, and it was always kind of the money part of the puzzle that was missing.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: But eventually I mean, I stuck to it for so many years and I kind of got known for doing like a lot of sustainable products and whether that was like through fashion or cosmetics or yeah, like a whole bunch of things really.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: But it was quite nice when people started to like approach me because they knew that like that was my voice rather than me having to like cold pitch all these random people who I didn't align with.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: And so it didn't happen overnight, but I think eventually, because I stuck to my voice, in that sense I did become recognized for that and the risk kind of just followed suit.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely key for anyone watching or listening, learning where they fit in as a photographer as an artist, or whatever your vocation is, is to find that voice, and however long it takes, I think that's.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you agree, but it's such an imperative to have a voice as an artist, whatever form of art that might be, because then it's not an identity but it's a purposeful meaning to what you do, which then other people can identify with Exactly.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: So it's different.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I feel like everyone always tells you like, oh, you need a voice, like what's your story, what's this, what's that?
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: But it doesn't happen overnight.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: You kind of do stumble into it and you go through phases of trial and error and you try things out and they don't always work that well.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Like I've tried so many different styles of photography and just apps that, like wedding photography is not my jam.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Trying to like direct a whole crowd of drunk people is just like not where my skills lie.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, like, eventually you do stumble into something and I think you just have to be open to, like, trying new things.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: So how long was that process for you to well?
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: First of all, when did you pick up?
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: When, I don't know, you grew up with it, but when did?
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: You really start kind of doing this seriously.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: It's such a hard question.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I get asked that all the time but, like I did always have cameras in my life from like a very young age, like disposable cameras that I didn't even know how to use and just had lots of fun with.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: But I would say, probably when I had like a real interest myself in terms of like having my own direction with it was like when Tumblr was a big thing, when I was a teenager so I don't know how old I would have been must have been like 15 or something like that and just like you know, going out with friends like in the streets, doing like really cringe urban shoots and like I look back and I just think it's so funny.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: But like it's just one of the phases that you go through to kind of develop things and it's so far from where I am now, but after that, yeah, it would have been like.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Then there was like the rise of Instagram and me and my partner, ash, were going camping like every single weekend because we were trying to save money to go up to Europe and we didn't want to go out, so you were in New Zealand at this time.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: Where were you?
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, New Zealand this whole time.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: So I grew up in New Zealand and, yeah, this must have been.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, by the time I was about 18 and like Instagram was like kind of like becoming a cool thing and yeah, we were going camping every weekend and yeah, I started taking the camera like outdoors and I never really like being in the natural world like to that extent or that remotely before and like I hadn't really seen the stars or the Milky Way to that extent and then I just kind of fell in love with the natural world from now.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah, then again I feel like I've had so many metamorphosis since then.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Tell us more.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the next one?
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Metamorphosis.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: So at what point did you think okay, this is me, this is what this is, this is the genre, this is style, this is where I can craft a voice.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I think I've felt that many times, like it's happened so many times, where I'm like this is me and then I've shape shifted again.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: But I think, like right now I'm really happy with where I am, other than, yeah, I think I want to kind of circle back to like more of a vocation with my work, because I think that that was something that I ended up losing, probably like two years ago, and I had obviously like we had COVID and I was recovering from some injuries and I think my work became like a lot more introspective and, on some levels, like maybe a bit more selfish than the previous work that I was doing, like with other people and like trying to have like a message that was, I don't know, like something that was beyond or greater than myself.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: So I think that's something like I want to like circle back towards.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: So would you mind talking a little bit more about your injuries and what actually happened there, because I think sometimes big life events will reshape a way of thinking.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, take COVID it was an externality but it changed many people's lives for the better or the worse.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: And you know, I'm sure if something happens to you very personally and very drastically and seriously, that's got to alter your mind right, the way you think, the way you perceive, the way you want to do things.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Can you share with us kind of what happened yeah definitely.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, very defining moments, like obviously there's a whole spectrum of things that that could define that.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: But yeah, in this case I was on a photo shoot with one of my closest friends and we went on a road trip down like two, three hours away from our hometown in Auckland, and it was the middle of the day, completely fine conditions, like you wouldn't think there would be any sort of road accident, but someone had fallen asleep behind the wheel and they just kind of crossed the centre line and we just see it coming towards us and we're like yo, like if I can just stop, could see it coming towards us for 15 seconds.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that's probably an exaggeration.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: It was probably like seven seconds, but it felt like eternity, like we could just see it coming towards us but there was nothing like we could do because there was like a cliff on one side and then oncoming traffic on the next.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: So like all you can do is slow down and just like prepare to, like brace yourself.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: So we did what we could and we got off really luckily, but he was still coming at like 80 kilometres per hour and it was like a big U with the trailer and so many things wrong with the situation, but I guess drivers fatigue is like a whole issue in itself.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: He was fine.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: His passenger got injured, I think like a broken ankle, but yeah, it was kind of the cars ended up clipping passenger to passenger, so both the drivers were okay and yet both the passengers got injured and I was definitely the worst.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: So you were the passenger.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was like front front right, front, left seat passenger because that's how the cars are orientated back home.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I ended up with six broken bones and I ended up having about like five surgeries, like undergoing like nerve damage pain.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: It was in a wheelchair for a couple months.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, a bunch of time in hospital, years in therapy, like learning how to like use my grip again.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: So what were your injuries specifically?
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: So I broke my ulna like in three places so that's kind of like a massive scar.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: I noticed that.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: And so I broke that very severely so the bone just kind of came right out of the skin.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: It was very, very graphic.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: And then my little finger was like bent all the way backwards because pretty much what had happened was the door of the car just like encaved over my arm.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: So I was trapped in there for two hours and I was like I'm going to get like cut out by the like the fire trucks, like pretty much the whole race you didn't was there.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: There was like helicopters, ambulance, fire trucks, police, like the whole row.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: It was like absolute carnage the scene.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: But I'm just so lucky that my brain, my brain, my spinal cord, my pelvis, my organs, like all those things, were miraculously fine.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: That's nice.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: I try and focus on the positives.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Oh and the other injuries.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had like nerve damage up my legs which I still have today, but like it doesn't really matter and it gets better in time.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: And then my foot.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I think I broke four bones in my foot, so that was like very crush and like such small, niggly little bones that are very painful.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: And at the time, like I couldn't move, like I did feel like I was paralyzed, Like, and we didn't know until I got to the hospital, like what it was.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: It's very scary time in the ER.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Can you remember the accident?
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I didn't.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know how, but like I wasn't knocked out at all, I remember everything in like horrific detail, Like the airbags, the sensation like it's very claustrophobic feeling and it's like it's like deep heat, it's just like fire like all over your body and then the adrenaline kicks in and you feel super wired and like people were asking me questions if I'm okay and I'm just like chatting to them, like I'm on drugs or something.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: I wasn't like I hadn't just the adrenaline like fully takes over, and in a really nice way, because it was pretty freaky and pretty confronting, I think, for, like everyone else who is witnessing the situation, I feel like you play it down a lot and you're very very humble about it.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: But I'm sure you're probably very bored of telling that, so you must have been asked a million times.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: But the thing I think before we move on to more photography stuff yeah.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: I'm such worse when it comes to pain Like if I bang my shin just a little bit like it's the worst thing that's ever happened to me, like my morning or a couple of that fees laughing cause, she knows.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: And then I'm done.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: My biggest fear in life is pain.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: I don't fear death.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I don't fear a lot of things, but just pain Like every.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: My whole life is to avoid pain.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Have you ever had that thought where it's like you know, like mind over matter?
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: What if pain is like purely subjective, like in our head?
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: And I've read enough and listened enough to professionals to know that that is, that is true to a large part, is it?
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: I just, you know that's.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: You know we take something like meditation like a practice that is that has many benefits and it's kind of a trend these days, but you know it's been around for hundreds of years.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: The whole idea of that really is to to process, to either avoid suffering or process suffering in a way that you can deal with it, that's not overwhelming, that's not damaging to others, that's you can actually still be happy where the bad things or good things are happening to you, right, so that that goes with emotional pain as much as physical pain.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: So I'm not obsessed, but I'm very, very interested in and I've been meditating for a while and I still never got to that point where, if I'm in pain, physically being able to accept that, absorb it and kind of dissolve it at some point I still believe like the the right side of a brain is going well.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: If you broke in your arm, it's just fucking hurts.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: There's no.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: There's no arm about it.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: It's just fucking hurt, but there's a lot of evidence to suggest that it, that this mind over math cliche is, is true.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: But I, I picture you.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: I don't want to bring the vision up again, but if you're in a car accident, a very, very serious one, it's going to hurt.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, there's adrenaline, but at some point that adrenaline is going to wear off.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: If you've got bones sticking out.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I guess it kind of ties back into the like mind over matter thing, when you don't actually know or you can't see what has happened.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: So yeah, like I said, like the initial sensation was like very claustrophobic and I always if I'm trying to describe it, I always say like it felt like there was an elephant like standing on top of me, like I was crushed and like weighed down by the, because like the metal was like encabed over you.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: So the dashboard was like on my lap in the, the middle of the door, where the impact was, was like encabed over my arm.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: So like I only had my right hand free and I actually had my phone in my hand, like cause, I just got an off the phone to Ash like two minutes earlier.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: It was like super surreal, and he was very confused when he got the call like three minutes later that something had happened.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: But anyway, I couldn't actually see what had happened.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: So yeah, there was like an overall sensation through my body, but in my head I was still thinking like, oh, this is like really inconvenient.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: But like in my head I've kind of just assumed I'd like be going back to Auckland later that night or the next morning, like I didn't realize how serious it was.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: I knew I was in pain, but I couldn't see that like my bones were coming out.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I couldn't see that my finger was like a curly fry and yeah, I don't know, you're just, you're in such a different state with the adrenaline.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: But then, yeah, by the time they like started cutting me out and I started seeing how bad things really were.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: It sinks in and you, you freak out a lot more once you see what's happened.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, interesting exercise in terms of pain, like it wasn't not painful, but I think it makes it worse when you can actually see it.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've seen a lot up close.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I used to play a lot of sport and had injuries myself nothing that graphic or serious.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: But broken bones and yeah, they hurt and you get on with it.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: But when you see something, you know I've had a lot of friends or I've been on a rugby pitch.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: You see a leg, that's when it's wonky or like dislocated.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: That is the word.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: They are, and they see it, and they are then like screaming, like a fucking five year old right.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: It's like yeah, there is so much pain.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: I look at them, just go.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: I never want to experience that it's so easy feeling, yeah, and I'm glad that I couldn't see what had happened for like the most part, but event I don't know.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Eventually I was kind of looking at it like, yeah, just in a very surreal way, like this isn't real, like this is not happening right now, like someone pinched me, but just so alert and so wired the whole time.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: It's crazy, like the chemicals that your body starts releasing and then, yeah, they come in and they start pumping you with other stuff and then you can't really tell what's what anymore.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: And from there everything was quite what's it called, like they've covered everything up so you don't feel much after that Everything's hidden and you can't really yeah.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Interesting, so move into, I guess, any mental damage that might have been done, or emotional damage, was there any?
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Or did it just kind of just flick a switch and go, okay, maybe I'm looking, maybe now I look at life a little bit differently.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, from the most part, like I think it was really good character building and like not that I would like wish that experience upon myself.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: I don't like I don't think it was bad for the things that it like taught me in my own, in my own head, but I always looked at it like really positive, because I had such a supportive family and like network of friends and when they kind of show up for you, like on your hospital bed, it's crazy.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: It's like it feels like you died and like these are the people coming to your funeral and you like all these people come out of the woodworks that like you wouldn't expect to and you just feel so extremely loved.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: That like that was very empowering feeling for me, like realizing who I had around me and, yeah, just being grateful like I'm so young, like this COVID right now we're not really doing anything better.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Anyway, it's winter, like they always said.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Like you know, by summer it'll be okay.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: It ended up being a lot longer than that, but these like little things like really pushed me through.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, keeping that mindset helped a lot, but in hindsight there were definitely like hurdles that that imposed, like in terms of client work.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Like I just found like my vocation and I just kind of come out of trying to like pitch for work all the time, like people were finally coming to me and like knowing me for who I was, and then I couldn't work for two years.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: So that was very confronting and I was like what am I going to do if I can't like do photography?
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: That's all I've ever done.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: But it gave me the gift of time to start dabbling in digital art and looking at the NFT space and kind of navigating that whole world, which I don't know how far I would have got into if I didn't have, if I wasn't sitting in bed for like a whole year.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I don't really know.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Like life would probably be quite different.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Maybe I would be like doing more stuff in terms of vocation, like maybe getting like super dream clients and stuff, but it would be a very different path that I would have ended up on and I think both would be good.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: But I'm happy with where I am now as well.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot to unpack there, but if you go back to what you said about it teaching that experience, teaching you many things, specifically with regards to photography and your direction with it Can you give us a couple of things that maybe it did teach you or that you had learned from that?
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: So I mean, if I were to rephrase it, then how did it change your photography specifically, or your style or your voice?
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah well and I think this is something I can only answer in hindsight, because I didn't really see it happening at the time but I guess when you go through a situation like that, there's a lot of pressure, and I don't I don't even think it's necessarily external, but like there was pressure within myself that I kind of had to come back and like reinvent myself somehow, and that was like really daunting for me because I hadn't done any growing, I hadn't like gained any new skills while I was sitting in bed all this time, and I was quite ambitious beforehand.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: So I'm like where do I go from here?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: It felt very stunting, like in terms of like career progression or whatever you want to call it, but yeah.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: And physically as well.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: right, well, exactly, holding things, and exactly and there was another spanner in the works, because right when I thought I'd healed and we were about to come over to Asia, I went to go have like my final scan and they were like, oh, actually, the arm is like worse than it was last time we checked and we're going to have to do another bone graft and you're going to have to like start this whole process from scratch.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my God, but and I was feeling really strong at that point and I actually had like rehabilitated to most of my ability but I didn't realize, like what was going on inside and that I'd have to like have the sit back.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: So before I went in for that bone graft, I made sure that I like had some assets, like photographic assets, to be able to edit while I was in recovery again, because I was like, oh, I can't do recovery again with like nothing to do and I was so excited to get get back out there and shoot.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, so I had this weird mix of like limited ability but wanting like really wanting to have something to do while I was in my next recovery phase, and so I went out into like the forest at the local park and it was literally like five minute walk from my house, something very achievable that I could walk down the road and do.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: And I had such limited gear because I couldn't, I wasn't strong enough to like carry my big lenses or my big backpack and like tripod or any of the stuff that I was used to.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: So I just had like my little 35 millimeter on my camera and my phone torch and some like random plastic plastic colored covers and like hair ties that I would strap around my phone torch and like shine these lights onto Like little mushrooms in the forest, and it was so like silly and little and I didn't know like what would come of it at the time.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: But I was just kind of using what I had.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: I couldn't go out and like climb a mountain, so instead of kind of being obsessed with the vastness or like the epicness of the location, I was kind of transforming that into like more intimate settings that like we might otherwise find mundane and like how can you treat yourself?
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And then like how can you transform the atmosphere of something that you see every day?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that really changed my photography a lot, because now that's kind of what I've been doing.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I haven't had to like go and do these huge location scouts.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: I just kind of like worked with what I had and like seeing the world in a different way with the resources that are available.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: So most of your circumstances, or your limited circumstances, dictated kind of new vision, I guess, for you.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and I guess it's kind of like what people say, like having a tight brief is actually a blessing a lot of the time, like have it.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: If someone just say gives you a brief, that's like very, very broad, like where do you begin?
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: But if your circumstances are tight, then it's kind of crazy what you end up coming up with, like within those boundaries.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: So yeah, kind of taught me not to be afraid of those limitations and like, use them to your advantage and let it draw things out that you otherwise wouldn't really explore.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: And when you talked earlier about getting to a place before the accident where people would come to you or the clients would come to you, how did you?
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: How did you do that?
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Because I think a lot of budding photographers will quite rightly go and pitch and work hard to do that At some point.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: There's a crossover right, or at least a combination of pitching, outreaching and people actually seeking you out.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Could you pinpoint any reasons why that happened for you or what tips that you might be able to offer on that?
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say the crossover was really only just happening for me, like within that, like the year leading up to before the accident happened, and I was still like going out of my way to like pitch to companies that I thought I personally aligned with.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, I think, just kind of being strong and in what like you do want to advocate for.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: And for me it was like I'm a big believer in like using your dollar as a vote like towards the planet that you actually want to live on.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: And so if I was pitching the brands, I was like is this a brand that?
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Like, is this a brand I would want to spend my money on?
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Is this a brand that I don't know?
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, it's hard to say because everyone is so different and I was I'm quite like, strong minded and I have like a very strong ethos on like who I align with, so I'm quite picky and other people might not be.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: I think initially it held me back, but Eventually, because I stuck to it for so long, I did become known for that.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: And then, yeah, I had a bank reach out to me and they were like hey, do you want to do some work for our carbon footprint tracker or something and I'm like that's so random, that's something I would never pitch.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: But cool that you thought of me, like I'm on it, and so, yeah, when that started happening it was very fulfilling.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: But that is kind of a distant memory now, unfortunately.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Do you find that you're a bit of a rebel?
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Do you rebel against institutions or political narratives, or is that how?
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: You see yourself.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: I would say I'm very interested in activism and that kind of thing, but I'm not a very political person at all.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: That kind of stuff intimidates me a lot.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: But I know what I care about and I know that when you bond with the people who care about the same things, they can help you get to those places and fill in the gaps and you can create really cool things when you bond together with people who have such a strong purpose.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the cause comes first and then photography afterwards.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: I think that's a really important lesson for people is doing not only doing what you love, but doing something that means something to you, or at least working with other people that share the same purpose.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Right yeah?
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Otherwise you'll end up just a scatter gun approach like oh I'll try a bit of that and then I'll work with that one and then I'll work with that one, and not quite Totally, it's really inspiring that you stayed so true to your belief system which in the end, is a complete asset to your, your skills and your photography, because people see through that.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: People see if you're a bit of an opaque human like, oh, I don't you know, does he mean what he says he means, or does she kind of really do this properly, or does she normally do that kind of thing Exactly?
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Does she believe?
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: in our mission and our message, and that shouldn't matter, but it does, and I think that definitely comes through in the final product as well, if you see an artist that is so passionate about the belief system, the belief system behind a piece of visual art.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Let's say it comes through in the.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: It definitely comes through in the artwork.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and then on the like counter side of that, which is something that I think I'm still trying to navigate right now, is like having such strong beliefs and then like growing through them and like not being afraid to like upgrade those beliefs and like you learn something new, and like staying open-minded even when you're like very strong-willed in something.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: And I think, probably like a lot of those fears stem from like like cancel culture.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Today it's so aggressive.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think if you're just kind of open, open to upgrading those beliefs, like it doesn't, it doesn't really matter you can change your mind on things.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why we started this podcast actually.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: It's just to have conversations.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: You know, it's great for me because I get to hear other amazing artists and learn from them, but hopefully people watching and listening can learn as well.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: But also just as a collective, the more conversations we have and the more education we're able, willing to receive right, willing to be wrong, willing to maybe go.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, actually, I didn't think about it like that.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: That's the biggest power we have as humans in this world.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: And you as a host must be going through that all the time because you're chatting to such a variety of opinions and you have to like, stay very open-minded to like what someone's going to say you don't know, like some random conspiracy someone might have, and like how you're going to navigate that on the spot.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it takes like a certain type of person as well, I think.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and that's what I was going to say Like, some people just will not.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Some people aren't just that opinionated, which is great sometimes because, it just makes for sometimes a bit of a boring conversation.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Or I have to work a little bit harder.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: This conversation isn't that, don't worry, but some I am quite indecisive.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Some guys just want to.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: I just want to go and shoot some photos, and you know.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: I feel I'm pretty good at it and I like what I do.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: I don't really care about the message, the voice, the I guess the conceptualization of shoots, how to sell it, and they just Some guys just want to go and shoot and that's cool, like they're a bit more on the, I guess like technical photographers.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: They love their equipment and they love you know doing this and they're so talented at what they do as well and they enjoy it.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not taking any away from it, it's just.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: That's the way they I agree Like, yeah, sometimes you kind of I think this is why I've found it hard, even, like you know, when you get thrown into some sort of setting, it's like, oh, you're like you're all photographers, like you're all going to be such great friends, and it's like, well, no, not necessarily, like we've got very like different ideas on like what brings us joy, or like what success means to us, or like what actually fuels the fire, yeah, and so that can be like quite hard to like relate to a lot of people in that sense as well.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it can be a both beautiful thing and not so beautiful thing, because if the other person isn't is dismissive, let's say then you know just, there's a barrier straight away, right, if the other person is open to Even just and this isn't really one for photographers because it's an individual pursuit, but if you go shooting together, that's a really, really interesting experience, because some guys will be like this is my camera, this is my shoot.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: You can't see anything.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: I don't really ask me any questions.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: It's going with other guys like, hey, what do you think about this, and maybe we can do that, or you know what are you seeing that I'm not seeing?
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: So it's a really interesting kind of the dynamic is ridiculous.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe you get along with someone really really well out of the field and then the experience on the field is very different.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: I think that's definitely something I struggled with, like shooting with photographers initially, especially in the kind of like the outdoors scene.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, let's all go camping together and then you're getting a shot and then there's three other people over your shoulder trying to claim what you've done.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: It's fine and we still had so much fun.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: But I think now that's probably why I plan my shoots now and then I can just go out, do my shoot, done my thing.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I don't really mix it so much with the leisure as much anymore and it means that when I do go and have the leisure, I'm not thinking about work and I'm not thinking about like, oh, what angle am I going to get.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: I'm actually enjoying the experience and being present.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of like a nice realization.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: But I think there's.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: You can definitely find a balance of it, and some people be way better at it than me.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Like you know, people who live their lives on the roads.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: They've definitely kind of found that sweet spot and that works for them and that's great.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: They're living the life.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Go them.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe it looks like they're living.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: True, maybe there's more to it.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally agree, I think.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, going back to what we were saying, open-mindedness is almost, I mean, a skill.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Maybe a skill is the wrong word, but something wise.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: People always have right Is wise and happy people always have is that open-mindedness and I just think that comes through.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: You can see it in people's artwork.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: You can see artwork that is confined and narrow-minded, and you can see artwork or artists that are able to absorb many different inspirations, but still make uniqueness out of it, or absorb opinions, or absorb conversations and learning exercises and experimentation.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: So only people are so afraid of experimenting or trying new things.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they've been told their whole life they have to stick to a niche and like you need to become known for like one style and, yeah, it's limiting.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did a video on style actually a couple of months ago and it was an interesting experiment just learning what the general consensus is, and it's 50-50.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: It is, it's really I can see both sides of it but it depends entirely on what you're using your photography for and what the intent behind it is.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: And I think it's definitely beneficial to be able to study something so meticulously that you do grow a specific skill set in that area that's very specific to you.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and you should definitely explore that and dive into it, but I think as long as you're just not like rolling other ideas out as well and suppressing other things that you might find a lot of interest in too.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: But a question for you is something that I'm trying to toss up at the moment is when you put an artwork out there, how do you feel about giving it?
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: How much context do you like to give it?
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: In what respect?
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Like if as in the story behind it.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like, do you like people to be able to digest that image without the context of the story first, or do you like them to read the story alongside?
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: That is a brilliant question and I don't know For me.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: I would love to have.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: For me, art is like beauty it's in the eye of the beholder.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: So for me, if I look at an image, I want to make what I want of that image.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I don't want it to hit me in the face with exactly what it is.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I want there to be.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: For me, as an artist, I want to spark really curiosity.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: So here's my artwork.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Make of it what you think.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: For me, my main genre is cultural portraiture.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: So there is an element of information there, not necessarily a story.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Hopefully there's a story.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: It's kind of fact.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: Environmental context.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, bit more of a documentative type final approach that's kind of what.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: I enjoy doing the most.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: And do you think by people knowing the facts of where and when and how relevant that person is makes them enjoy the image?
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: I think, if it's a specific cultural photo, something, I try and go after the lesser known cultures and just learn about them for myself and hopefully, capture them.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: If I can pass on some of that information that's not readily known to other people, then I like that.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: But if it's a photo, that maybe isn't anything special with regards to the subject or the culture or the location or whatever the context that you're talking about, then I'll just leave it and let the support rate of this person make what you want of it.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Beautiful to hear people's responses to that.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: It's like I think that's one of the most, that's the biggest dopamine hit I could get is hearing someone's response when they haven't had context or maybe a little bit of context, especially when it's different to my own.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: It shows you that not everyone's brains are going to be as receptive or less receptive or more receptive as yours.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Which is the essence of the beauty of it.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Because, otherwise, if everyone thought the same, it was just a homogenous set of images that everyone thinks the same about or set of whatever.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Everyone has their own perceptions of everything.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: And if you can spark that and I think those the best artists do that they can spark that curiosity in an image that has layers.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: Because you want to feel rewarded when you're looking at something.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: If everything's handed you on a platter, then you don't really feel like Things always feel better when you've worked for it.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I think that's something that I've only just started realizing in the last few years, probably having more introspective time to myself and digesting other people's artwork and what sparks those feelings for me when I'm the observer, because I used to always just slam.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: This is what I think about it, this is what it means.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: You should feel this, because I feel this, but I've definitely taken a step back from that over the last couple years.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: It's interesting to see what other people take on a half.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: I feel my wife is my litmus test because really, when the first person that sees my image is hurt and immediately, I'll know within a second, just by looking at her face, what she thinks of the image.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: So that's like my first Okay, if it sparks, as long as it doesn't, as long as it's not like I don't like that.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: But if it sparks a little bit of, I didn't expect that, or that's really nice, or I'd love the aesthetics, or I'd love expression or whatever the image says.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: That, for me, is when I know, and most of the time it's completely different, we're very different people.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I totally agree.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Then I know, that's that dopamine, that's that okay, I've done my job.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Whereas if it's just a flat, and this where social media, I guess and we'll talk about this at some point is a utility to some respect.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: It's not accurate in terms of a reflection of what society thinks, social media, but at least you can put something out there and gauge reaction to it, subject to algorithms, platforms and shit like that, but you can get an idea right.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally Do you.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: Social media is a thing for you.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, we'll get onto Twitter and NFTs, because I know that's your thing but Instagram, other platforms like them, hate them, appreciate them, respect them not.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: It's definitely like the whole love-hate relationship right, and Instagram was very helpful in terms of creating.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: I know I just said niches can be bad things, but it did help me direct my niche into an audience and clientele.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: That was super beneficial for me during the time before the pandemic and I was spending a lot of my time there and a lot of my work would come from there as well, which was really nice.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: But I think ultimately I find the pace very difficult to keep up with.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: My process is very slow.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: At the moment, I'm only releasing maximum 20 pieces per year and so if you split that over like an Instagram algorithm post, you're posting once every two weeks If you're liking it for me it wouldn't even be like that.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: It'd be like nothing for months and then like okay, here's five photos.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: So the pace I find very difficult.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't really think about it much, to be honest.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: It's just like if I have something to share, I'll pop it on.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: If I don't, there'll just be crickets for a long time and that's that.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Why the slow pace of your work?
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Talk us through your process.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Um so different every time.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: I guess.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take you to the latest, latest collection.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think a lot of it.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Like I said earlier, it's usually like the concept comes first.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: So I always have some sort of idea that I'm finding hard to express verbally or just express or digest in any sense.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: So I'm always thinking like how can I communicate this feeling visually instead?
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: So it'll be many, many months of like random, broken thoughts that I'm just like collecting collecting just like little seeds and like chucking them in my pocket and saving them for later, but like also, eventually you realize you're collecting all these ideas and it makes it so much harder to walk, like your pockets are full, you're so heavy and like you don't have any mental space to actually like let them flourish or take action.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, that's something I've been struggling with over the past like two years is like hoarding the ideas and like which ones should I act on first, and like which ones are going to have momentum and which ones are going to fall flat, and like if I don't act on it now, will I care about it in two weeks time or three weeks time?
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: And just kind of letting them brew and see what ones I keep coming back to.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: So you talk to me about that idea specifically, if you can like the formulation of that idea, up until kind of the conceptualization and then actually shooting.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: I know many people would love to hear your process.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: And yeah, okay, if we're speaking about that shot in particular, it's a very like unique case of one which is still interesting.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: But yeah, like, so I often will make like mood boards and things like that, especially with my friends, like we'll save, like little collaborative mood boards, Like if we feel like we're going to shoot together like I don't know, it could be anything from like wardrobe or props or kind of location or just general vibes.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: And yeah, this particular day I have one of my really good friends, jenny, over from New Zealand visiting Bali and we were showing her and a couple of our other friends around beautiful spots that Bali has to offer and I think it was like raining all day, like the weather wasn't looking very good, but we really wanted to head out to this tree because, like I knew that there were these ridiculous roots that were super deep and it felt like very maternal and kind of like almost like nativity vibes and I like the whole idea of like a, like a rebirth or something like that.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: But I didn't we didn't want it to be like too, like spiritual or like freaky, but ultimately we were just having fun and we plan to get out to this tree at Blue Hour and it was pissing down with rain and we were like, oh God, like we've driven an hour or two or whatever it was and like it's just raining.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: We're not going to be able to get any gear out.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: But we started chatting to the locals and they actually they were really curious in what we were doing and they said that they would like pray the rain away for us and they all started praying and that they were like, ok, you have 10 minutes to to get the shot.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: And we were like oh my gosh, like thank you, like we respect this time, and it was more than 10 minutes, that we probably had like 25 minutes, half an hour, and we were just playing around in the tree getting a bunch of shots.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: But it was super rush, like we didn't.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: We couldn't really knuckle down on one concept and these files sat on my computer for months and months because I didn't really know like what to do with it or like how it would fit in context of the other pictures that I'd been taking around that time and I definitely wanted to focus my energy into creating like a cohesive body of work and like really challenging myself to stick to one color palette and having like a progressive theme throughout the collection.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, this piece like just sat on my hard drive for ages and I started editing ones with the model and she was like in completely different poses and we were I was playing around with these and I thought they look quite interesting, but it wasn't really like sparking much.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: And then I stumbled across this image when I looked at the archive months and months later and it's crazy, what like a fresh perspective does?
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: I've seen it in a completely new light.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: So you looked at your image from from months ago.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and a completely new way, like and I do that often with myself Like I'll just let it sit there and brew and if I look at it on a different day, like I'll feel a completely different way about it.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: And then, yeah, I took it into the lab, the little editing softwares and everything, and once I started changing the colors around, I found a very different way about it.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: So initially, like we'd shot it, we brought artificial lighting in and we had.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: It was like very red and blue and it felt very like Halloween vibes and kind of masculine and angry.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it felt angry and it felt tacky and I think that's why I like I didn't really like them.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: But once I started like playing around with the hue and I made it feel like a lot more like feminine and light and surreal, and yeah, then I realized like, oh, this actually has a lot of potential.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: And just in the editing cave, it develops, develops, develops.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: I love that process.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: And then boom yeah it's beautiful yeah.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: It's not.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: It's not a formula by any means, Like it's just so many, so many sets of trial and error.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm exactly saying.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: I'm smiling as you're talking, cause I'm like that's me, that's me, that's me.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: I've taken months between taking a shot and editing it.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm a big believer in well AM lazy.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: So actually like if I have a set of however many images cause I shoot a project in series yeah.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: It's daunting.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to start.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: I'm going to have to start selections of a few thousand photos.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, oh God, when do you start?
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: I'm not the only one, yeah.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: But I also am a big believer in emotional space.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you take a shot you are.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: you are in a specific frame of mind in that from from inception to kind of that shutter button getting pressed after that like sit on it, rest with it, like try and forget about it for a bit.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: Do you think there's too much risk that it can be done?
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, cause I'm so guilty of that at the moment.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can give you an answer as to what the perfect time is, but at least some I know guys that will take a shot.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: Take some shots at it the same day.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: The same night.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: It's on Instagram that night.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: I couldn't even remember worse.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: And do you think?
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know if this is like in every case, but I find like a lot of the time in that setting, the piece is also only digested for a couple hours or days and then it's out of sight, out of mind.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but like maybe the longer you take to edit it, like the longer lasting impact you want you want it to have, or you believe it's going to have, yeah, but I also think it depends on your intent of what you're going to do with those images.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: But like I mean, I'm, I want a series to be cohesive.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: So if I go and edit straight away, I will only edit images if I know I've got a week to.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: I know to, if I know I've got a week to edit all the images.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: Cause then I'm, I can be in the same kind of cohesive space.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: Otherwise, I'm like if I edit one image one day, I'll go back a week later, edit another image and say that this is completely, and so you're traveling quite a lot to get your pieces.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: And so is that maybe part of it too, that you kind of like want to be in your own space rather than being like I've got to pack all these like courts and hard drives up tomorrow, so I'm not going to be able to get into that flow state.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: No, I just see editing as a separate project almost.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: So I'm like, are I?
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: going to start that project.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: You know another day.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: But also because our projects are travel based.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: They're often such amazing experiences.
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: It's like we finished project and we don't think so much about the photos.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: All we do is talk about the people we've met.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: I remember this and that.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Keep brewing in it and it's like, oh, just it's unfortunately for Fee, my wife, most of our holidays are photography projects, so they're not really like.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: She does well yes.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: The odd hotel and beach we get.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: The sweet in the deal.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Most of the time it's like that is our time off.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: So, but you're obviously like infactuated with these experiences too, and the people that you meet.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Otherwise I don't imagine you would be doing it Absolutely not Fee less so.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've kind of dragged her along for the ride, but it depends where we go.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: If we go somewhere windy, cold and wet, she's not interested, but sometimes those types of places make amazing.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: Seriously, Anyway, not talking about me, but I think one of the things I guess that most people would know about you is is in the crypto world, right In the NFT, which seems to be like a still like a separate world altogether.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah that you have to kind of really have make a deliberate step to get into.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Where did did that start?
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: In the hospital bed?
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: It was like.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: Luckily, I think I'd delved into the space like a month or two prior to the accident, but it was very I was like navigating it right, so I didn't really know like where it was going or like how much time I should be spending there, or like I was really just kind of like throwing some coins and the thing and seeing what happened, closing my eyes and yeah that was that.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: But yeah, once I'd like being gifted that time to think about everything, like I kind of was just all of a sudden I was all in because I had nothing else to spend my time on and I was like, oh well, I may as well like spend my time learning about something new.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: If I'm, if I'm not going to be able to create, like how could I use the creations that I already have and the assets that I've already spent like the last decade building?
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: Like how could I give them a new life or find a new audience?
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that was super empowering, but a lot of time on the screen as well, rather than like out there in the field creating.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: So it's like bittersweet, but given the circumstances, it was quite ideal.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: Can you say dive all in?
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: What does that mean for someone who doesn't really know the NFT world?
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: I guess it can mean whatever you want it to and in my case, I mean like just in terms of like, where I was spending my time because I no longer had these client jobs to do and I was no longer like out shooting so I could spend all.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: It's quite a demanding space, but not so much anymore.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: But in 2021, it was very demanding with.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: You know, there's like Twitter spaces like 24, seven, like 20 different ones you could choose from to tune in, like a chat room and like people would be talking and like asking you to get on stage and share stuff and blah, blah, blah.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, super, For those who don't know what Twitter space is, do you want to explain it?
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Oh no, we don't like Twitter spaces either.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: to yeah, I feel the same way.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Twitter spaces are like.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: They're like live interactive podcasts, so you can.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: You just start a room it's like a chat room and people can join and jump up on stage and you've got like a hundred people in the audience, or maybe only three people in the audience, meaning you are a speaker.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, on the platform.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: So, like you've got like an audience level and then you can like request to speak and the host or co-host will like accept you and you're like you can like go up and talk about what it like.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: They would usually be on random, like different photography topics or like maybe more like technical topics or like teaching people how to like mint their own artworks, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: There was like everything you could think of under the sun, but it was so noisy.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Like you know, everyone just like always has an opinion and often it'd be like the loudest person in the room is going to get the attention and that's not necessarily like the always the best way to spend your time and that's quiet and down a lot.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Now A lot of people like not really active anymore.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I did spend a lot of my time like listening to these things and just kind of like seeing what other people were up to, because I didn't know anyone else doing it when I first started.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: There was no one else in New Zealand that I knew of at that point doing it, so I was quite like alone.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't really have any like friends or anything.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: But then you start meeting people online and like building friendships and like that kind of stuff.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: I think collectively was really nice for everybody because everyone was like in lockdown and everyone was missing like a lot of social activity, everyone had time off work and like in some ways it was quite beautiful the conversations that happened, because there might not have ever been like another timeline where those people could like all align.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: And that environment now is due to, I guess, the the bear market, as people say, is pretty quiet.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: Do you active still with are you just?
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: Preparing for the next release.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say I'm not necessarily like super vocal, but I'm active every day and like I do what I can to I don't know, contribute value and that's like not in a surface level manner and you have, you find you kind of find your tribe and like people that you talk to and bounce ideas off regularly and I think a lot of things these days like happen in the DMs, like behind closed doors so you've always kind of got conversations going on, but that is just not necessarily like hey, this is my work, buy my piece.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: But it's nice because it's filtered out like a lot of people who had very different intentions than I do.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's bittersweet.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: I was chatting with one of my heroes, jo-el, about this, and he called it chemotherapy for Twitter.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness, oh my goodness so just but yeah.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: You gotta get rid of some of the get rid of the wheat from the chaff, as we say in England.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: Do you find yourself now creating for NFTs, and if so, does that change anything?
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good question and not like I guess.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: Something I'd also want to touch on is, like you know, people call themselves like NFT artists and it's like no, if you've been creating for so much longer than that, like, unless you're actually doing something to do with the technology and like blockchain, that's like different to how you made your art before then.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: No, you're really just an artist like using that as a medium to yeah, like as a new audience, like I don't think musicians like started calling themselves like MP3 artists when iTunes or Spotify or before NFTs, when you just hung your artwork in galleries, you did call yourself a gallery artist.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and so I find it.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: I find the label quite frustrating, obviously, because there's like still a very negative like connotation with the whole space and like they're definitely are like.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe I'm just self-conscious.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Maybe you don't understand it.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, from people who don't understand it and I can see why, like there definitely is like scammy, like Ponzi behavior that happens, but it's like it's so different in Farah move, I agree, I agree, and it's so different in like Farah move from like the area that I've landed upon.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: But yeah, anyway, what was the question?
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: I totally got a slide.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, you said.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: You said how has it changed?
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: Does it change?
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: Has it?
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: affected, like my process or whatever.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, it was quite daunting Because, like I said, I started NFTs when I couldn't create any work and I was.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: A lot of the work that I sold initially was well, yeah, all of it was like my archive of things that I'd created in the past and obviously all of those pieces were made without even knowing that, like, any sort of monetary value would be attached to them.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: They were all just like random, passionate things that I'd done with my friends or out having a good time, and so, yeah, kind of when I once I rehabilitated from all my injuries and I could go back out into the field, it was kind of like, oh goodness, like people, like people are like expecting something of me now and like, yeah, pressure, pressure.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: So that was really scary to begin with, but I think, ultimately, if the space like fizzled and crashed, like I'm still going to be producing the same work that I am now and in hindsight, when I look at the three collections that I've put out post-recovery, all of them have been like very introspective and all of them I've kept like very personal and like I haven't shared or like tease the idea with people, like before I released it.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: So like.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, like back in the Instagram days, you know you'd post a photo and you would like trying to gauge how many people liked and blah, blah, blah.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: But like with these things, I'm like no, like, this is like authentically what I want to put out, and that kind of taught me to really slow down the process instead of getting excited about an image and sharing it straight away, like keeping it and like letting it brew and coming back to it and like putting it out with intention, like alongside a whole body or like a whole study of work.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Intention, love it.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: You always have to have intent behind.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: Do you ever get nervous when you put photos out there, Even on?
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: yeah, well, yeah.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: Then there's a flip side of it.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: It's like, ok, well, like no one has validated me about this, and now I'm putting it.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: I'm like minting it for eternity on the blockchain and like what if it's not received?
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: Well, or something?
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: But I don't know, I don't really care too much about it.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: I think as long as I like it, that's all that I care about.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: Do you have any relationship with the people that have collected your artwork?
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like half part.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: That's a nice thing about that it's really lovely and like I've been able to connect with like people completely outside of my field that I would never really run into anyway, Like you know, becoming good friends of like scientists and like doctors and like people who can like teach you about other walks of life, and they're like equally as interested in you, and you feel like that's a really weird feeling because you're like why would you care about this random JPEG?
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you'd like get to know people like yeah, it's really beautiful.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: And you've obviously done a lot of exhibitions or been featured in exhibitions.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: How has that come off the back of NFT success, or is that prior?
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: So I have participated in a few group exhibitions prior to all this, but NFTs allowed me.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: I think I've been exhibited like 10 times in the past year, like just through.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: Nfts, which is like something that was never possible to me before that and maybe I wasn't really like seeking it out as much or like putting my attention there, but I think that's super incredible.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: It's amazing.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: Because, especially in like, it's meant to be a digital space, right, but all these things were like real life events, where there were like people.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: They're like standing, like physically, like being able to touch yeah.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: And unfortunately I haven't been able to attend any.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: I'd really liked to next year, but I attended one in New Zealand but that was like super small.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: Tending the last year.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: Amazing Good for you.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: That is incredible.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: What advice could you give to others who want me included, who want to kind of navigate that NFT space at?
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: Maybe now is a good time, while it's quiet?
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: And not much going on, but how can you, how can someone kind of do it right, or is there such a way as doing it right?
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, I still feel like I don't even know how to do it, and it's been like two and a half years and I still don't really know.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: I don't think I do do it right, though, either, because there are, like it is very like clicky kind of space and comparing that.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said before, I don't really always follow the rules and I don't know, I'm probably not a very good person to ask for advice.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, it is a lot quieter now and perhaps that is a good thing because, like people more receptive to like new and interesting work, not just like the same cookie cutter stuff.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: But I would say, yeah, like probably finding some sort of like gallery or curator who is already like interested in those themes.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: You know they're already going to have like an audience of people who are into that kind of thing, Because if you just jump, if you just jump in the ocean, like, you don't really know what you're going to get.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: But maybe if you you know like connect with some sort of curator, they're kind of already.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: Would you put a lot of time into because I see it in kind of two ways that method, and just kind of hit and hope almost or spending time in spaces or building a Twitter, following and building connections that way and then finding the right to you know when you do that that could take you know what is the right amount of an audience.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: But build an audience that there might be some people interested in your work, and then drop.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, definitely, People like I think a lot of people invest in the person more so than the piece, and if no one knows who you are, then you've got kind of no chance.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, definitely, you want to establish yourself before you, before you meant something.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: But I mean, maybe people have had success otherwise and a lot of people also like enjoy the idea of the provenance and, like you know the time stamp on a piece and using that like especially as like documentary purposes.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's really important to like mint something on a certain day.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, my general advice would definitely be to, yeah, maybe jump in some Twitter spaces.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: I haven't had the time to like listen to those so much anymore, so I don't know how much value like still gets shared there, but I still see them all the time and I'm sure things are happening, even if it's just your name, your profile being in that group people, yeah, you can start knowing.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: You can just sit in a room and people start recognising you and like just tapping on you know they're just tapping through and checking out your profile and stuff.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I suppose the best thing to do would be like find people that you admire and like start interacting with them on the timeline, like commenting under tweets that they make.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: Why aren't you answering my messages?
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: But I don't.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: I'm not very good at that sort of stuff, doesn't come naturally to me.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: And I think I'm really lucky that I started early, because I don't I don't know how well I would do like, yeah, what's the next early thing?
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: and for two years, the early thing and photography that we we need to get into.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I missed the NFT bubble, I missed the Instagram thing.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: I was so against Instagram for years now.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: I'm just catching up.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: Ai, I mean photographers.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: How do we use AI to to improve, make money, to do whatever we want?
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: I mean I'll, I'll ask, I'll give you the opportunity in a minute, but I just see, I see the AI wave.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: Should we say the moment as purely for photographers, not necessarily threat, but just a way to make your process more efficient, yeah, and to help with maybe getting jobs, to help with just daily tasks and that kind of thing.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: Editing, I mean look at what Lightroom and Photoshop can do now.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: It's ridiculous and updates keep coming every day, keep coming every month, I know, yeah, well, that's something that I've been thinking about a lot because obviously, like it's such a sensitive topic and especially like within the digital art space, people like they want you to be very transparent about when AI has been used, and I can understand like people want don't want to be like, sold alive.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: But yeah, for me it's like Pete we've been using content aware and clone, stamping and Photoshop for years.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: So, like, where do we draw the line?
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: Photoshop itself is AI Exactly we use content, aware or not or whatever.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: You know like any adjustment you do.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's artificially intelligent and that's great and like we benefit from that and yeah, it's just, I find it hard, like, at what point are we going to label it otherwise?
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: Because, like one of my favorite features that have come out recently is the Denoise on Lightroom.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you've tried that yet.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't like it.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: You didn't like, why not?
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: Well, because I, come I, use Topaz.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, ok, and that is, when used in Photoshop, it's just a layer.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, and I love layers, and you know, once you have a layer, you can do whatever you want with it.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, it locks it in on Lightroom and yeah, it's just a bit more clunky for me.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: I think it will come.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: But the biggest problem with Lightroom that's why there's Photoshop is there's no layers.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: There's no.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: You know, it's all integrated right.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: So the same with the Denoise.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: But it's still, I did try is amazing at what it does.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think in terms of like a free spot sorry, it's not free but in terms of like a software that, like you already have installed on your computer, instead of having to like go and buy a subscription for whatever.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: It's super incredible what it does, and I also.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: When I was playing around on Photoshop the other day I saw it.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: There's like Photoshop Denoise and it looks pretty similar.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: Like a new AI Denoise.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: I didn't see that.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: And I don't know if it's just like the same thing.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: I can't keep up with it.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: I know there's so much.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: Maybe it could have even been in like the beta one, I don't know.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: But just with the Denoise in general, no matter what application that's used on, that has changed the way that I shoot completely, because now that I've been like more restricted with the gear that I can bring in like not always like being able to have my tripod in crazy little tight corners and blah, blah, blah I've noticed with the Denoise I can reduce my shutter speed and do a lot more things hand held and then just bring back the light that way rather than having a long exposure all the time, and so that's something that's like directly influenced my flow on the field.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: But does that mean like I'm an AI artist now?
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: I?
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: I'm exactly the same.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: It's funny you talked like that because after I got Topaz I was like, oh, I can get away with more.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: And.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: I felt guilty about it.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: I was like a safety net.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know I can recover that.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: But now I can get better.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: Why do we feel guilty?
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: We shouldn't feel guilty about it, because at some point, you're not going to have to do anything.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: So where do we draw the?
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: line.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know, we're all fucked.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, ai, ai is.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: I ask this question with every guess because it's the hot topic, but not this question.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ask just the question of AI and I just kind of not bored of talking about it.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: But it is what it is and we, you know, if you don't work and live with it and evolve with it.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: But your, your, not style, but your, what shall I say?
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: Your art is, I feel, more conducive to the use of AI or more more in danger of AI.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you think about surrealism and that type of photography, I mean, yeah, there are some amazing AI artists even now doing some incredible like incredible, surreal yeah image work.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: It's not photography, it's completely different, but it's digital art or whatever you want to call it.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: Do you, are you a little bit fearful of that?
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: a little bit, a little bit, and I think, like if you asked me this question last year, I'd be like not, not at all, definitely not.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: Like art is the only thing that will survive, whereas this year I'm like, ok, well, I've been completely proven wrong.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: But I think for me, ultimately, like I'm not going to get the same enjoyment out of like sitting behind a screen making my work, like so much of the process, like is outdoors location, scouting on the scene, so like taking that away would like be taking away like a lot of the essence.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: And sure, I think, yeah, maybe I could make some nice things in the AI, but I'm not going to be as fulfilled that way, but I do believe in using it as a tool.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: I'm just, yeah, maybe slightly concerned about where we draw that line and like how we have to label things.
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you mentioned something there about fulfillment, and what does, what does fulfillment and or success mean to you?
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: How would you define that for yourself?
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: So many layers to it and I think the only way I could maybe define it is like what I feel like I'm missing right now.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I think that goes back to finding other people that, like you can like share that fulfillment with.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: Like I think fulfillment is a lot better shared and kind of like being on like quite a lonesome journey over the past couple years and like being inside so much and so much computer time.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: I think it would be really nice to like find some sort of like collective passion with other people where, like they can fill in gaps, I can fill in gaps and we both feel like that's like a mutual exchange and if that's kind of going to compound and quantified from there and I think that is very successful, no matter what it is For what purpose?
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that purpose could be one of so many things, and I think it evolves for me like every season that I go through in my life.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: Like that purpose is kind of like floating around and I'm always trying to like catch it and I think that's okay.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: I don't think it needs to stay the same the whole time, but it is important to like be within reach of it.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: And how big a part of that is philanthropic endeavors.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: A lot.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: I think that's been quite like consistent throughout my work, minus maybe the past year where I felt like I've been a lot more selfish and introspective and philosophical towards my artwork.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: But something that I really want to get back into my work would be tying and like a philanthropic purpose, and I see a big gateway there with the NFT space as well, with the amount of spare money people have to throw around.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: We should be using this for things far greater than, like I don't know, buying new camera gear or something.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: I mean that is great, but the amount of money that's being thrown around, why don't we actually make impact?
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: But it's hard to find people who like care about these things as much as I do, so I haven't quite got there yet.
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's lovely to hear you say that, because In our middle age actually no, that's not true throughout our 30s, our I say our, me and fee, our priorities start started shifting and as we became a little bit more educated, traveled more, a bit more wise about just general state of the world, more nuances and insights with regards to how people work, the politics of everything, how systems, society becomes so disturbed and what people's real priorities are status, ego, money, materials.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: So when you say something like that, I Would say that's pretty much the same with any industry, any form of life.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: It's so difficult to find people that actually Not only care but I actually want to get off their arse and actually yeah about it, whatever that is, whether it's Whether there is selling artwork and reaping those rewards and then giving it back, whether it's education platforms, whether it's physically volunteering with something and giving back your energy whatever it is.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: I've I've come close to many billionaires and be seen had insights into that world, and it's Not only sad but very scary about what drives them right they're billionaires for a reason.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: They're rich for a reason.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're rich because they're driven by greed, essentially and you know might get loads of comments about this, but I'm generalizing very much so, and I was one of those person about wasn't a billionaire.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: When I started earning money at a young age, that was me.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: I was like I want to have nice car.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: I want to have a good house.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: I want to have the best cameras, I want to have this and that yeah.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: And quickly realize that doesn't fulfill me, and yeah, and nor it does anyone I would, I would guess.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I, I totally agree that it's very, very difficult to find those people and it's sad to hear that kind of that NFT space is the same.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm sure there are people out there and they are, like you know, a handful of people Doing some really lovely things, um, but yeah, it's reassuring to like be reminded that it's it's not just that space like, it is in some way like human nature.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's a shame because there's a lot of people like throwing so like just huge sums of money around and all I can think about is like this could be directed into like something, something crazy.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: Um, such as what some causes that are close to your heart.
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: Um, well, I guess like things that I've worked on in the past have like been like deeply tied to the ocean, um, so like there's obviously like coral restoration and then, you know, like endangered species and then social work, and then after like my accident, everything, something that I've been meaning to kind of like Tie into my work somehow, and I haven't found the right way to do it.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: But I really want to like somehow acknowledge, um or pay tribute to, like the medical system, because I really had no idea how any of that stuff worked.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: Like I had, you know, the odd friend who'd like trained as a nurse, um, and that kind of thing, but I I never fully understood the extent of like even the psychological side that it takes to like Embark on a job like that and do that every day and like turn up every day Like nothing happened yesterday and just like keep going on with that, and like like rescue services and like the Helicopters that go out and search for people like that.
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: That was all stuff that had never really crossed my mind that these people might need extra resources, um, or like, yeah, deserve more tribute.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: So that's something I'm I'm still playing like with the idea of how I could tie that end, but I don't really know how yet.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: Well, if you think of it, let me know.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: I'd love to be a part of it.
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: What?
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it will.
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: Um, what's the solution to improving that, that whole development of people want, you know, wanting people to care, or being able to give more resources to those, which is sad?
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: that these types of Areas need more resources.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: You.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: It's just flipped, isn't it?
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: It's just the wrong way around.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: Is is education a big part of that, or awareness?
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: Is that where we, as photographers, can help?
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: Maybe awareness, because even if I think of myself like I just wasn't aware of these things until I was directly in that position yeah, and I yeah when I think about that as well, as like I don't think you can really tell people what to care about, either.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: But I do think like you could show them or, like you know, you can like Reel them in, like let them smell something and then they like figure it out for themselves.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: But I don't think people like being like told what to care about, and that's like you know, with a lot of charity work when things just kind of like slammed in people's faces, people just turn a blind eye to it and like you're not really getting through to anybody.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that is what's really powerful about art, is that?
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like you could kind of like hide little nuggets of these topics like into your work and like maybe people find them, maybe people don't, but If they give you enough time of day and you do get to have a discussion over it, then yeah, maybe you've done your job.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: No, I think maybe it's your surface.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: I don't think you nailed it on the head.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: I we find it very difficult still to reconcile.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's like I we find it very difficult still to reconcile why people don't care about a lot of things oceans, for example.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: We're we're huge advocates of ocean conservation and we don't do nearly enough as we can.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: Could you know?
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: You end up getting torn in Want to help that, want to help that want to help that giving one penny to each, and it doesn't really totally.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: You kind of have to go right, I'm going to choose all in on one, and then that can be daunting as well, because maybe you're like well, why is this the issue that I've chosen?
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: There's all these other issues.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: Well, that's my question.
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: why certain something?
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: That's probably why people don't like being preached to, because, like what, I don't care about that, but I care more about this.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it kind of like becomes part of your identity as well.
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: And I, I think I got Um kind of like engulfed in that for like a certain period of my life where, like, I really just wanted to like Give back and like be like okay, I have these skills, how could they be valuable for other people?
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: And it didn't even really matter where it was.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: I just kind of enjoyed the fact that I could help Somebody.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: Like that filled my cup, um.
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: But then, yeah, you can't.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: You get tied into projects, um, and at some point, like yeah, you begin like advocating for these things and like that's great, but some people might like attach that to your whole identity and you're like, oh, that's just like one one thing that I care about, but like it's not like a be all, end all um.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: Why do you?
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: Why do you think people don't care about?
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking Not specifically about certain stuff.
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe I am.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: I mean I can put it into an example, like if you're we, we like to scuba dive, and if we go diving Wherever, most of the time you'll see other people diving.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah and most of the time those other people diving won't give a shit about touching coral finning a.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: Manter airway or, you know, just leaving trash on the beach or just throwing trash over the side of a boat, like so for me, I just don't understand that.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like so I can't reconcile this huge barrier between me and them and I, and it just turns into Anger and hate which, no, it's filled with, and then that kind of fuels the wrong method of trying to give back.
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: It's like yeah, it's like well, why would I give back when people are just going to counteract at all anyway?
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: And but I don't understand why I never understand why people like, if you threw any Good cause out there to me, I'd go.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: Well, I yeah, I don't support it.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah in terms of financially or you know, I don't give anything to it, but I understand why people like that's a cause worth fighting for most of the time right and I think something I found in the sustainability space as well is, um, like, the competitiveness between different causes.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 2: Like some people, you know they've got their thing maybe it's like plastic, and someone else has their thing and you know it's like, oh well, like, my issue is more important than that.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: Therefore, like, let's not waste time on that.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: We need to think about this, and it's like I found that so overwhelming because, like people were just very dismissive of, like, even really small things that people just like genuinely Trying to help and like genuinely like maybe they've like just found their purpose and they feel fulfilled by this and they're just shut down because like, oh, it's not, like a, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: Um and yeah, that that was pretty deflating.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and the whole.
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: thing is kind of deflating.
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, sorry, all we can do is what we can do, right and my mum always used to say that she still does say that like you can only do your part, um, but make sure we do it.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if we all did it.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: Well, would be a better place.
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah and you just have to, I guess, kind of live or learn to live with the fact that Human nature is not going to change for the.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: You know the general.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: Just of it and there's always going to be people Like that.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: There'll always be people for it.
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you just kind of have to find your place and you're never going to be able to like.
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: Solve world hunger.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: You know that these, these things are so.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: Although, ironically, the billionaires can like that.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: Isn't that weird to think about.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: Like it's frustrated.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: It's so weird.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: You could solve world hunger like that if they wanted to.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: What is this weird, Anyway, yeah no, I'm with you, I'm on the same page.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: So, uh, on this podcast we have a tradition where we get the guests to write a question for the next guest, not knowing who they are.
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, so, someone.
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: Uh, one of our previous guests wrote a question for not knowing it was you turning up?
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: But if I ask you that question and put you on the spot, I'm interested to to hear your answer, the question being um, what are the failures in your life that you would consider a failure that you cherish the most?
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm constantly failing and constantly learning, constantly evolving and shape shifting, and I love that and I think I I welcome that into my life.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: To be honest, as Confronting as it can be.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: Um, but like, maybe one of the biggest Things that, like, I have been devastated about in the past is like Losing a camera, or like deleting an SD card, or like something getting corrupted.
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, um we can all relate to that worst nightmare, right?
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: Um, and it's happened to me so like not the same thing Happening every time, but I've had so many lost cameras and corrupted cards and, like me, just like personally delete, like accidentally Formatting things that shouldn't be formatted, and I think that's the worst feeling, because you're like I can't even blame anyone, like it's literally myself, um.
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: Do you cherish those values?
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: because no, I, I don't know if I can say cherish them, but um, they definitely are, but um, they definitely like taught me so much to live in the moment than like Chasing things that are just like perishable with my camera and like living those experiences through a lens, because that stuff is, you know, you capture a photo and you think you've captured it and you've got it, but like no, you don't necessarily, it's just some random files sitting like nontangibly on your computer, but like you know, experiencing that through your own eyes and like I don't, yeah, experiencing it with the other people around you.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: That, rather than like living it through the lens, um, the more that it's happened to me, the more that I've realized it's not really it's not about chasing those moments for me.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: I'd rather kind of like curate a scene, uh, and plan it meticulously and then go and shoot it, then like try to capture the fleeting stuff all the time, um, and I think that's been really nice for me, because I'm not Um, I'm not caught up like babysitting my gear and stuff anymore, trying to chase these things.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: I think for my lifestyle it's been like a nice progression to like learn through all those like very awful moments where you've lost your life's best work over the click of a button.
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: But yeah, we try and take the positives.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: What a wonderful answer and what a wonderful way to to end the podcast, and I totally Get where you're coming from.
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: I wish I was as strong as you, and I wish I was.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: I could Be able to just let that go at least learn from it and just but it's easier said than felt, if more people can enjoy being in the moment.
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: Enjoying the experience with whatever you are doing at that time, then we would have a better world to live in.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: But For this I've enjoyed every moment of it and thank you so much for coming on.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: It's been an absolutely pleasure.
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: Being a very good conversation.
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: It's been wonderful and and hopefully we'll have Plenty more.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but until then, where can people find you?
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: Where can people look at your work?
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: Um I don't know what people's platform preferences Um, but yeah, gabriella Morton.
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: Gabriella Morton was on Instagram, twitter.
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: I'm Gabriella Mort because I couldn't get the last two letters.
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: It frustrates me so bad.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, mainly just Gabriella Morton.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, it's all usually a handle description.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for being an absolutely amazing.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: Until next time.
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: Alrighty.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: See you later.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: See you.