Latest / The Elsa Kurt Show / Artificiomics And The Human Side Of Workplace AI with Christopher Warren

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Artificiomics And The Human Side Of Workplace AI with Christopher Warren · The Elsa Kurt Show

0:00
SPEAKER_07: Our guest today has spent more than 20 years thinking about something most of us probably don't think about nearly enough.
0:06
SPEAKER_07: Risk.
0:07
SPEAKER_07: Dr.
0:07
SPEAKER_07: Christopher Warren is a nationally recognized safety and risk management leader whose work has taken him into complex construction, infrastructure, environmental, and government projects around the world.
0:19
SPEAKER_07: Now he's turning that expertise toward a very modern challenge, artificial intelligence.
0:23
SPEAKER_07: His book, Artificiomics, Mitigating Human Risk of AI Technologies in the Workplace Using Industrial Hygiene Principles, looks beyond what AI can do and asks a different question.
0:34
SPEAKER_07: What happens to human beings, human judgment, and workplace safety as we increasingly rely on it?
0:40
SPEAKER_07: Let's welcome Christopher to the show.
0:44
SPEAKER_06: Well, hello, and welcome to the show.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Elsa.
0:48
SPEAKER_06: You are very welcome.
0:50
SPEAKER_06: Thank you for coming on today.
0:52
SPEAKER_06: This is, I mean, talk about a timely topic, right?
0:56
SPEAKER_06: This is probably one of the biggest conversations that we are all collectively having right now.
1:02
SPEAKER_06: Good, bad, or indifferent, it's the conversation.
1:05
SPEAKER_06: So let me ask you first about the title.
1:09
SPEAKER_06: Did you coin that phrase?
1:10
SPEAKER_06: Is that your phrase?
1:11
SPEAKER_06: Because I love it.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: That's my phrase.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:14
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
1:14
SPEAKER_06: Love it.
1:15
SPEAKER_06: You need to like trademark it.
1:17
SPEAKER_06: Can you trademark it?
1:18
SPEAKER_02: Actually, in the process.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
1:21
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
1:21
SPEAKER_06: Brilliant.
1:24
SPEAKER_06: So what exactly is Hello and welcome to the show?
1:28
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Elsa.
1:30
SPEAKER_06: You are very welcome.
1:31
SPEAKER_06: Thank you for coming on today.
1:33
SPEAKER_06: This is, I mean, talk about a timely topic, right?
1:37
SPEAKER_06: This is probably one of the biggest conversations that we are all collectively having right now.
1:43
SPEAKER_06: Good, bad, or indifferent, it's the conversation.
1:46
SPEAKER_06: So let me ask you first about the title.
1:50
SPEAKER_06: Did you coin that phrase?
1:51
SPEAKER_06: Is that your phrase?
1:52
SPEAKER_06: Because that's my phrase.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: That's what's right.
1:56
SPEAKER_06: Love it.
1:56
SPEAKER_06: You need to like trademark it.
1:58
SPEAKER_06: Can you trademark it?
1:59
SPEAKER_02: Actually, in the process.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
2:02
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
2:02
SPEAKER_06: Brilliant.
2:05
SPEAKER_06: So what exactly is artificial nomics?
2:08
SPEAKER_02: So the Latin Latin base of artificial nomics, when I was thinking of the term to come up with, because I I wanted to come up with a term where it married occupational exposure to AI technology with work, right?
2:21
SPEAKER_02: So so I was looking at you know the root of the word, you know, artificious Latin for artificial and nomics is work, right?
2:29
SPEAKER_02: Similar to the term you've you've seen like ergonomics, right?
2:32
SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of, I mean, that's the basics of it.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: Is I I came up, you know, with the term because that you know the thought was, you know, we are entering a time where we're starting to see this AI technology enter the workplace.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: And workers are being introduced to this technology.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of fear and anxiety and and some psychological stress involved with the introduction of this technology.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: And you know, as a uh health and safety professional, you know, that was one of my biggest concerns.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: Not so much, you know, the obvious physical stuff from people working like around robots or autonomous equipment and this type of stuff, but also, you know, mental health's been a big focus in our industry the last few years, you know, and the suicide prevention and the stress and and psychological safety, right?
3:17
SPEAKER_02: That's a bit a big emphasis.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, when I started looking at this equipment and and this technology, I started thinking, you know, I wonder if it we need to get into the discussion of how we're going to protect protect workers and how we're going to assess the risk to workers as companies are starting to integrate this technology.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: And there's going to be a lot of fear and the fear of the unknown.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, you've you've probably seen in media and articles where there's an overwhelming fear of job replacement.
3:49
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: And purpose, right?
3:51
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of people find their purpose in their jobs, their their identities in their career, the pr the their chosen profession.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: And if you see, you know, this equipment coming in where it replaces 70% of your daily tasks, it has you start wondering, well, what am I good for?
4:08
SPEAKER_02: Why am I here?
4:09
SPEAKER_02: And then you start worrying about like, is my employer thinking the same thing?
4:14
SPEAKER_02: When this you know, piece of equipment or this technology can replace 95% of what I'm doing on a daily basis, then why would they keep me?
4:22
SPEAKER_04: Right.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: So so when I started, you know, thinking about that type of stuff, I I sat down and started making notes.
4:27
SPEAKER_02: I've read a few books uh on flights, um, and pretty soon I had enough notes down to actually start building chapters for for a book.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: And uh and I think it's a like I said, it's a timely discussion of how are we going to assess this technology, right?
4:44
SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of discussion around governance.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: How are we going to regulate this technology as we're introducing it into the workplace?
4:51
SPEAKER_02: You know, OSHA, you know, they they make up occupational health and safety standards and laws to protect workers in the workplace.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: But what's unique about this risk and hazard is it's moving at an accelerated rate that by the time they would pass a law or regulation, the technology's already, you know, 10 generations later.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: So that's what's going to make it challenging when it comes to even putting protective measures in place for workers.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, one of the one of the things with the with the artificial genomics is, you know, I said we already have some framework in place, but you know, we can use the principles that we find in industrial hygiene, right?
5:32
SPEAKER_02: Which is to recognize, you know, right, recognize the hazards, assess, anticipate, and and address them.
5:42
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's so interesting.
5:43
SPEAKER_06: I I just uh I don't know if it was coincidentally or not, but I just saw a statistic saying that uh right now, I think it was like a Pew report, 71% of Americans believe that um that AI is highly likely to take over our jobs, take over human jobs.
6:02
SPEAKER_06: So, you know, to to your point, that the fear is is truly out there, the concern is out there, and the the reasonable expectation of that being true, it it's reasonable.
6:12
SPEAKER_06: It's it's believable that that can happen because we are seeing it happen in some circumstances.
6:18
SPEAKER_06: Um one of the things that um I I found really interesting about, well, everything you said was very interesting, um, but I have such a limited understanding of what exactly someone who's in risk management does.
6:28
SPEAKER_06: And I and I think I did just make the assumption that it was physical risk, you know, on-the-job risk.
6:34
SPEAKER_06: And, you know, so you're actually addressing uh more of the the mental health, the the mental aspect of it as well.
6:41
SPEAKER_06: Um what actually I'm I'm just curious, what got you into that line of work?
6:46
SPEAKER_02: Well, I I served in the US Navy, and when I got out of the Navy, I I went into the construction industry as a worker.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I got I got the experience putting up pre-engineered metal buildings and and working on construction sites and see the different occupational exposures.
7:00
SPEAKER_02: And I actually had a chance meeting with a uh a safety professional on a job site.
7:05
SPEAKER_02: And I was always mindful of my own safety, and I always enjoyed when the company would send me for safety training myself.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: And and you know, I would try to implement those things on site, and I kind of took the rules pretty seriously because we we were working at relatively high heights, work, you know, putting up steel buildings, you know, I'm sitting there straddling an I-beam six-point in steel.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: You know, I took fall protection rather seriously.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I had a chance meeting with a safety professional, and he was explaining to me one day at lunchtime about what his job was, you know.
7:33
SPEAKER_02: You know, the the old uh view of safety people was uh they just show videos and tell you to put your safety glasses and hard hats on.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: I didn't realize there was so much more to the discipline and the profession.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean in construction you can obviously name the physical hazards that workers encounter, you know, fall hazards, uh, electrical, confined spaces, excavation and trenching.
7:59
SPEAKER_02: But there's a whole nother piece of it, which is the health piece of it too, right?
8:03
SPEAKER_02: So you've got you're breathing in silica dust, you're exposed to exhaust from equipment, you're exposed to asbestos and lead and all these different types of chemicals that are used for the construction materials and working with those construction materials and finishing the construction materials.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, but one thing that I've seen evolve, ELSA over the years is the more of a whole worker approach to safety.
8:27
SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, that's what got me into it.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: Is I I saw an opportunity, I ended up changing my degree path from a business management degree path to occupational health and safety, earning my bachelor's and my master's degree, and also picking up some of the uh the board certifications along the way as milestones.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: I kind of treated those as milestones in my career, you know, like hey, I'm comfortable enough now with my my my knowledge set.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: And and I guess I've always kind of um another thing that kind of made it easy for me to get into this profession is that I've always had this feeling to help and protect.
9:07
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, I'm I'm I'm probably the dad at the pool that's always watching every kid to make sure that they're safe around the pool, that nobody slips and falls or hit their head or drowning.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm hyper-vigilant in public when in in public safety type situations.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: And I think I just kind of came naturally to me.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, working on construction sites, I I ended up, you know, learning people's names and and getting to know the people.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: And to me, they're like an extended family to me.
9:34
SPEAKER_02: You know, I I genuinely care that they're able to come and make money for their families and that they're able to go home safely and you know, have long careers, long and rewarding careers.
9:44
SPEAKER_06: So my goodness, can we clone you?
9:47
SPEAKER_06: Can we just clone you and and put you on every job site, every workplace environment?
9:53
SPEAKER_06: Because I I think it's uh and so many people are are missing out on this truth that you know, if you want the best workers, if you want to get the best out of people, it is a whole person approach when it comes to safety and risk management.
10:07
SPEAKER_06: It's it's the whole person and the most productive person is the one who's you know most physically uh capable and able to do their job and most mentally able to do their job.
10:18
SPEAKER_06: And and sure, if you don't have those components, you can probably do your job, but for how long, you know, how long?
10:23
SPEAKER_06: And and this is uh such a wonderful uh and practical way to get the best out of everyone and do the best for everyone.
10:31
SPEAKER_06: So I I think that's amazing.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: Well, when I used to teach at Tri-C and uh Lorraine County Community College, I I would tell the students in those courses that if you're planning on going to occupational health and safety, don't go into it with the mindset that you are going to make friends.
10:47
SPEAKER_02: It's because if you think about it, you're you're approaching grown people, mostly men in the construction industry, but also general industry, you get a mix of both, primarily, um, that you are telling them they're doing something wrong.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: So like think about it, Else.
11:02
SPEAKER_02: If I came up to you and said, Hey, you're not using that ladder correctly, you know, remember in training, blah, blah, blah, blah, your first instinct, and even my first instinct when my wife is telling me I'm doing something wrong, is to get defensive.
11:14
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know, and try to argue, like, oh no, no, no, that's that's how I use it.
11:18
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no, you don't know what you're talking about.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it it's it's a tough position because you are you know you're that guy.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: You happen to be that guy, and there's a lot of jokes, a lot of jokes out there about the safety guy, this and that, and they the trades guys joke around about the safety guy too, and you you gotta learn to take it with jest, you know.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: But when what my reward is in this type of industry, though, I'll give you one example.
11:41
SPEAKER_02: I had a tunnel project that I worked on.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: It's a very dangerous, very dangerous project.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: It's 200 some feet underground, three and a half mile-long tunnel, and they had a hole-through party for all the workers.
11:51
SPEAKER_02: So a hole-through party is a party they they throw when they finally break through the other side with the tunnel boring machine, okay?
11:58
SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like a celebration point.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: Kind of like when you see the iron workers fly the flag, yeah, the last piece of steel up on a building.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: It's it's probably the the tunnel guy's version of that.
12:06
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: So I'm at this dinner where everybody's getting celebrated, and I had one of the guys' wives come over to me and give me a hug and thank me for making sure her husband made it home safely.
12:17
SPEAKER_02: And she goes, I heard you're tough, but I I think I thank you for for staying on my husband and making sure he gets home safely.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: And you know, that's where the reward is.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: Or when you go out to a project site or a location, you see a worker who's practicing what they learned in training.
12:32
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: You know, and and using fall protection correctly, or helping another worker, or identifying hazards that could have put others at risk and bringing it to your attention.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, but yeah.
12:43
SPEAKER_06: So yeah, for every uh salty old dog out there that thinks they can do it their way and not adhere to the safety rules, there's a a wife at home saying thank you to, you know, to someone like you who is making sure that they get home at the end of their shift, you know, at the end of their day.
12:58
SPEAKER_06: And and uh yeah, I it's funny because when you were telling you started telling that story, that was the first thing I thought of.
13:03
SPEAKER_06: My first thought was as a wife, I'm thinking, thank you, thank you.
13:07
SPEAKER_06: You know, they can laugh all they want and make their little jokes, but they're getting home that night to make the jokes because of people like you.
13:15
SPEAKER_06: So yeah.
13:16
SPEAKER_06: I'm I'm curious about the um the AI part of this, how this came into play for you.
13:22
SPEAKER_06: I was just wondering, is was it like was there a specific instance that made you kind of go, hang on a second here?
13:31
SPEAKER_06: This this is something so much bigger and and a lane that I need to explore, need to do this research on.
13:38
SPEAKER_06: Um did something specific happen or was it just kind of a collective, uh, a collection of things that happen?
13:44
SPEAKER_02: Well, if I had to think about one particular time where I was just like, oh my gosh, where everything's gonna change.
13:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
13:54
SPEAKER_02: Are we ready for this?
13:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh I remember BMW put out a video a couple years ago where they had a humanoid robot working on assembly line.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: And it was showing it able to efficiently assemble um some portion of the vehicles that they they manufactured at that plant.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: And it showed the movement of the robot, the the pace of the robot, gave some stats on the robot.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: And then I started thinking about what about the people that are working around this thing?
14:22
SPEAKER_02: Right?
14:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: Are they safe?
14:25
SPEAKER_02: Are they are they what if one of the the the programming goes wrong or whatever, are they they're gonna be creating some physical ads?
14:33
SPEAKER_02: So I that was probably probably the moment.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: Um and then also too, um Henry Kissinger put a book out, Age of AI, um, that I picked up during one of my flights from back back west to back east.
14:48
SPEAKER_02: And I read that book and my eyes were just open, especially when you start talking about the governance and the regulation of it and the the change in society.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: Like, think how much I think one of the points he made in the book was look how much the iPhone changed how our society functions.
15:02
SPEAKER_06: Yes, so true.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: And we we are on the cusp of the next industrial revolution where this technology is gonna change our everyday life.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you see these videos now that they're putting out, some of them are AI and some of them are right from the factory floor of like the robots that Elon Musk is and Tesla are putting together.
15:18
SPEAKER_04: Right.
15:19
SPEAKER_02: You imagine having a house made that you don't have to do housework anymore or yard work or any of the menial tasks you have to do around the house, or even watching your children, maybe.
15:27
SPEAKER_02: Uh just so I think about it in the sense of the workplace, though.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: And it I'm just like we have to get ahead of this.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: And I think right now in industry, we are starting to put our foot into the honeymoon phase of this AI technology.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: I there will be a time where we will work side by side with this technology on a factory floor, on a construction site, in a shipyard, in a restaurant, in a shopping area, uh, security.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: Think about the future of security, even uh around events.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: It could be all robots that are monitoring for safety issue issues and concerns, not just cameras, right?
16:06
SPEAKER_02: And I also think about like emergency response.
16:09
SPEAKER_02: Why would we send a human in a burning building when we can send a robot into a burning building to save people?
16:14
SPEAKER_04: Right.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: Why would we put humans on a forest fire to try to fight a fire where we can deploy drones and robots out there to fight the fire for us?
16:22
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, and I think about from the the safety standpoint in my field is like why would we ever have another human walk onto a hazardous waste site and be exposed to toxic and hazardous chemicals when we just put those robots in those those scenarios?
16:34
SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, it I started thinking about all that stuff, and and you know, it just like I said, it's start writing chapters and and doing research.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, started researching white papers and state and case studies, you know, what different standards.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: There's some ISO standards on some of this technology now.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: Um it's probably a little bit dated, I would say, just from my initial review of these these standards.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, there's some international standards and stuff that are getting introduced.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: I know Europe has been really, from what I've read, is it's they're really trying to be on top of this and put some kind of safeguards in place.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: Um as you know also from us watching the news, we're in a race.
17:15
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
17:16
SPEAKER_02: Why would we hamper ourselves when our competitors are going full bore with no brakes?
17:21
SPEAKER_04: Right.
17:22
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, tell me what you think about.
17:24
SPEAKER_06: So I'm sure you saw it too.
17:25
SPEAKER_06: Um, Elon Musk, we you mentioned, Elon, um Sam Altman, and I forget his name, but the uh the guy from Anthropic, they all have just recently, this past uh you know week or so come out and said we we need to pump the brakes here.
17:39
SPEAKER_06: We gotta pump the brakes on all of this.
17:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:41
SPEAKER_06: Um I I have a few questions about that.
17:43
SPEAKER_06: One, do you think they're really gonna pump the brakes?
17:45
SPEAKER_06: You know, because they're all in, again, just like you said, this is a race here, not only with foreign countries, but with each other, with the you know, these billionaire tech guys um racing.
17:57
SPEAKER_06: Do you think that they will actually work together to one, will they work together to pump the brakes?
18:02
SPEAKER_06: And two, can you even at this point?
18:05
SPEAKER_06: It's like Pandora's box, right?
18:07
SPEAKER_02: Well, from what I'm from what I'm reading and and some of the the media that I've watched these guys get interviewed on, I think the big fear is the super intelligence.
18:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Once it's be when it's self-aware, the super intelligence, and it's not controllable anymore.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: I think that's the fear, right?
18:26
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: From the everyday AI use like Claude and uh Chat GDP and some of these utility tools, right?
18:33
SPEAKER_02: I think these are very handy for people on a daily basis.
18:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: Like how great is it?
18:37
SPEAKER_02: You you never need to wonder what the answer to a question is now, right?
18:41
SPEAKER_02: So um, so I love that that part of the AI technology, right?
18:46
SPEAKER_02: I love the idea that we can put people uh in safer positions when it comes to being exposed to high-risk work activities and exposures, right?
18:55
SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm all for that.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: Um I'm all for automating and anything that's gonna produce efficiency and and and better this our society.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: Okay, um, I'm for that.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: But when they talk about this artificial superintelligence that could be self-aware, you know, we we start thinking about movies like The Terminator, and we start thinking about um these situations where we could end up become subservient to AI, where it can control control our power, our our energy, it could control food.
19:29
SPEAKER_02: It you know, there's there's even some doomsday scenarios out there.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you could go really down a rabbit hole.
19:34
SPEAKER_06: Oh, you could, yes.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: Where they're talking about these things coming up with diseases and viruses that'll take us all out, right?
19:40
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: So I understand where they're coming from when it when they say they want to slow it down, but I think that they're talking from the standpoint where it could be self-aware and start being problematic.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, these when you read articles that you know some of these uh bots have uh or or agents, these AI agents have gotten out of their pen and you know, gone into bank accounts or these types of things, like that's spooky.
20:07
SPEAKER_06: Yes, it is.
20:08
SPEAKER_06: It's very spooky.
20:09
SPEAKER_06: And I say that, you know, I I make no bones about it to anyone who asks.
20:12
SPEAKER_06: I I am an AI geek.
20:14
SPEAKER_06: I I love the productivity, I love the usefulness, I love the possibilities, the the positive, good possibilities of it.
20:21
SPEAKER_06: None of that makes me unaware of the negatives and and all of the, you know, not all, but enough of uh the negatives of it, which leads me kind of to my next question.
20:31
SPEAKER_06: Um, what risks are you seeing that the average person like me is just not even seeing?
20:36
SPEAKER_06: Is there is there anything that we're missing that's kind of a big deal?
20:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think one of the things is um I think the psychological hazards is something that we need to really think about.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: We were talking earlier about the whole worker.
20:48
SPEAKER_04: Right.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: When we're talking about the whole worker approach, we're not just talking about physical hazards, right?
20:52
SPEAKER_02: We're talking about mental health, well-being, and physical hazards and health, right?
21:00
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, one of the things for me is the psychological.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: I kind of hang on it because I can see this becoming a problem.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, one of the things is that that thought of the loss of autonomy, you know, where workers feel like they're not a decision maker anymore.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: You know, the cognitive overload, people don't think about that.
21:19
SPEAKER_02: When you're you know constantly being exposed to alerts and dashboards and data streams and these types of things, that that's overloading.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: You know, it your your employer might be creating more efficiency by introducing this AI technology, and now you're doing the work of five people instead of with the use of this AI tool, right?
21:36
SPEAKER_02: That's that's gonna create burnout and cognitive overload.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: And then you got algorithmic anxiety, right?
21:43
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you've heard of this or not, where you know they have camera technology where they can monitor workers, you know, keystrokes, uh, they can monitor their production and they can score them.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, could you imagine having a camera on you at work or a monitoring system on?
22:00
SPEAKER_02: At work at all times that is scoring you and comparing you against your coworkers, and you could get put into a position where your bonuses, raises, or even employment could come into question based on how this thing scores you.
22:14
SPEAKER_02: So there's that.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: There's skill degradation too.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: You get people who are over starting to be over-reliant on AI and can't do critical thinking.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: I I not too long ago saw a video where they were showing somebody used uh chat GDP and somebody who wasn't, and they had them both doing a critical thinking exercise where the guy using the chat GDP is just like very little of his brain lit up.
22:42
SPEAKER_06: Right.
22:42
SPEAKER_02: Whereas the person who actually had to have a thoughtful paragraph and have a thoughtful response to the task, there was multiple areas of the brains that was activated where so they're they're talking about this could basically dumb people down.
22:57
unknown: Yeah.
22:58
SPEAKER_02: Because you're over-reliant on AI.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't make you think or have your problem solving skills get diminished by having the answer at your fingertips.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: I don't need to know that, right?
23:09
SPEAKER_02: I think about it like this way.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure Elsa, when you're younger, you probably knew everybody in your life's phone number.
23:15
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: You probably memorized all of everybody's phone number.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: I did too.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: I I know a couple of my good friends.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: I still remember their phone numbers from when I was a kid.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: If you ask me what my daughter's cell phone number was right now, no idea.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: I have to look up her contact.
23:28
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
23:28
SPEAKER_02: I know, isn't that terrible though?
23:30
SPEAKER_02: It's a skill degradation.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Or being able to jump in your car and grab your phone and go, uh, directions to boom.
23:39
SPEAKER_02: Where the old days you had to pull out a map, you had to critically think and plot out your path of travel, right?
23:44
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, you had to know the the compass points, you had to you had to know routes and everything.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: Give a 16-year-old a map a map, a McNally map right now and ask him.
23:54
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
23:54
SPEAKER_06: Find your way to across country.
23:56
SPEAKER_06: Find your way.
23:57
SPEAKER_06: Find your way down the street.
23:59
SPEAKER_06: Across town.
24:00
SPEAKER_06: Find your way across town.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: But think of like think of it like this, though.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: This with this AI technology.
24:06
SPEAKER_02: Imagine the next level of skill degradation we'll see and critical thinking skills and these, you know, the diminishment of thought and and and problem solving, right?
24:18
SPEAKER_02: So um I'm concerned about that with the psychological with that's part of the psychological safety.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, and there's moral distress, you know, there's we gotta worry about that because the AI may have a response to how something needs to be handled.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: Ethics of it could come into question, or if a person doesn't agree with it, right?
24:38
unknown: Sure.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: How do they handle that?
24:40
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, um, you know, and these types of hazards, you know, just doing the research, it's been shown to increase error rates, okay?
24:48
SPEAKER_02: It's reduced situational awareness.
24:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you have higher incident probabilities, you know, people are on edge, you've got anxiety, you know, it's got negative impacts on the mental health.
25:00
SPEAKER_06: So yeah, absolutely.
25:02
SPEAKER_06: And you know, one of the things about AI, notorious things about AI, it is it is ultra confident in its answers.
25:09
SPEAKER_06: And there's, you know, people who do tests, you know, all the time.
25:12
SPEAKER_06: You see, I see the videos all the time from people that, you know, test AI, their their AI, their chosen uh platform, AI platform, and it confidently gives a very wrong answer.
25:23
SPEAKER_06: I've I've experienced it.
25:24
SPEAKER_06: I I've asked it something and that I already knew the answer to.
25:27
SPEAKER_06: I just needed a little more information.
25:29
SPEAKER_06: And it gave a completely wrong answer.
25:32
SPEAKER_06: And you know, and you find yourself doing stupid things, like talking to it like it's a person, going, What do you what do you think you're doing?
25:38
SPEAKER_06: What's wrong with you?
25:40
SPEAKER_02: Then you start questioning yourself.
25:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, for real.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: It's like all this time.
25:43
SPEAKER_06: Right?
25:44
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's like, okay, time to step away.
25:46
SPEAKER_06: Step away from the chat for a few minutes.
25:48
SPEAKER_06: But yeah, I, you know, so that's a little bit, I mean, that's actually a lot scary in the workplace when you know someone is is using AI for a you know, pretty critical answer to a problem or a situation, and it's the wrong answer.
26:02
SPEAKER_06: And now you have a lot of people that are affected by that wrong answer.
26:06
SPEAKER_06: I mean, I'm I'm thinking my first thought, I don't know why, but my first thought was, you know, people who build uh airplanes who who do things like that, and you're relying on, you know, that it is scary.
26:16
SPEAKER_06: You're scaring me.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: I I don't I don't mean to.
26:19
SPEAKER_02: I kind of got the same response at a conference I spoke to not too long ago.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: I had a couple of people come up to me afterwards, like, your presentation scared the hell out of us today, just so you know.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: It's a healthy thing.
26:29
SPEAKER_02: We gotta think about this stuff.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: You do.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: So we are gonna be working side by side with this technology.
26:35
SPEAKER_02: I'd say at least for 10 years.
26:37
SPEAKER_02: I mean, from there it could go completely autonomous.
26:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: You know, and and then we're just observers at that point and maintenance people for this technology, you know, versus the versus the carpenter that's driving the nail, we might just be watching them doing the maintenance for the robot.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: That's building the wall.
26:54
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, my goodness, it is wild to say the least.
26:58
SPEAKER_06: Can you um, you know, maybe something from the book if it's in there, and of course, I don't want you to give away too much because we want everybody to go read the book.
27:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
27:05
SPEAKER_06: Um, what what's one practical step people can take right now in whether it's the the workforce or um, I don't know, I guess if you were to speak to a CEO right now who's saying, you know, well, we have this technology, it can save me a lot of money.
27:19
SPEAKER_06: What should I do here?
27:21
SPEAKER_02: Well, and I do cover this in my book, Elsa.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: You know, what I propose in my book is that employers, whether they're and safety professionals, so when I talk employers, I'm talking to that that C-suite group, right?
27:35
SPEAKER_02: Right within an organization.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: They they need to get other people involved.
27:39
SPEAKER_02: They can't have this great idea that we're just gonna bring in this technology and everybody's just gonna have to deal with it.
27:45
SPEAKER_02: They they should set up a committee, an AI committee at their place of employment, go through the proper vetting process of how's this going to change our processes, what's our improvements, how are the employees gonna be infected?
27:57
SPEAKER_02: What how how are they gonna interact with this technology?
28:01
SPEAKER_02: Is it gonna change their behavior?
28:03
SPEAKER_02: Like go through a proper assessment, uh like risk-focused assessment, right?
28:08
SPEAKER_02: Where you're not just looking at physical hazards, you know, like are they gonna get bumped by this thing or is this thing gonna pinch them or can they just run into the worker?
28:14
SPEAKER_02: No, look at how's it gonna change the worker's behavior?
28:19
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, right?
28:20
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, right, right.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: And absolutely from from from that, like not just the physical, just uh psychologically.
28:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, how are the workers going to accept this technology?
28:33
SPEAKER_04: Right?
28:33
SPEAKER_02: I I can see a day where we could have riots in the street when we have 25% unemployment because there's no such thing as factory line work before anymore or or meat processing plant work or we have an unemployment rate that high.
28:46
SPEAKER_02: I can see the unions and others in the street setting the places on fire in protest of this technology.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: I can see where employers could be bringing in this technology and workers purposely sabotage it.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: They they don't want it to be a threat to them.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: If they view it as a threat and they're not involved in the decision process for bringing in the technology and understanding the benefits, features, and benefits, or they bring the technology in, they're like, no, this doesn't make things better.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: And this is why it's gonna make it worse for the workplace and the workers to have that opportunity to have that feedback and that protest, right?
29:21
SPEAKER_02: I think that's a critical piece in it too, you know?
29:24
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
29:28
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I um, you know, I I think of um I'm thinking of myself here for a moment in my thought process, and and I am guilty of being one of those people who say things sometimes like, um, listen, you just have to, yes, it this is this is advancement, this is technology, it advances.
29:45
SPEAKER_06: That's literally what it does, that's where we're at.
29:47
SPEAKER_06: And every time technology advances, we need to adapt and and shift and look maybe outside of the box and and create new opportunities.
29:58
SPEAKER_06: And, you know, you kind of just humbled me a little bit with that because sure it's easy for me to say, you know, that you just adapt.
30:06
SPEAKER_06: You just use, you use AI to create another stream.
30:09
SPEAKER_06: Well, that's really easy for me to say from the comfort of of what I do.
30:13
SPEAKER_06: I this is what I do.
30:14
SPEAKER_06: I'm not somebody who works in a factory.
30:16
SPEAKER_06: My job is not getting erased, but there are people whose jobs are and potentially will get, you know, diminished or erased.
30:24
SPEAKER_06: And they can't just hop on the computer and create a whole new career path just like that.
30:31
SPEAKER_06: It actually takes time and patience and oh, that crazy little thing called money to be able to do those things.
30:36
SPEAKER_06: So, you know, these are all really, really realistic fears and concerns.
30:41
SPEAKER_06: But and again, to kind of go back to what we were joking a little bit about about you scaring me and scaring other people with it, um, you know, it it's a hell it's a healthy, I don't even want to use the word fear, it's a healthy regard for something that can easily go off the rails.
30:58
SPEAKER_06: And you're offering, you know, some some advice here and some some strategies to combat that, to to actually pump those breaks that we mentioned, you know.
31:07
SPEAKER_06: So I I love that you took the time to do this.
31:10
SPEAKER_06: And by the way, how long did it take you to write this book?
31:12
SPEAKER_02: Because that it's from start to finish, about two years.
31:15
SPEAKER_06: Oh yeah.
31:16
SPEAKER_06: Wow.
31:17
SPEAKER_06: And in the meantime, everything is advancing, so you're like updating, right?
31:21
SPEAKER_06: A lot of updating with that.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the last couple months of putting the book, the actual manuscript together was going back in and making edits and changes.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: And and uh it's it's just amazing how fast things move.
31:35
SPEAKER_02: I gotta I gotta start working on my next book because this book's gonna be outdated next week.
31:39
SPEAKER_06: It's I mean, and that's the world we're in right now.
31:41
SPEAKER_06: Like everything that you do, you know, within five minutes, it's already already uh outdated.
31:46
SPEAKER_06: It's just it's amazing.
31:48
SPEAKER_06: It's you know, I think we both feel the same way about this.
31:51
SPEAKER_06: It's as exciting as it is terrifying, or terrifying as it is exciting, because there's so much potential and and active good with all of this.
32:00
SPEAKER_06: And then of course there's the flip side of of the negatives, and you know, and and I think that whole concept of pumping the brakes in certain areas and just having some foresight, forcing some foresight with all of this is uh a very, very wise move for sure.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: I will say that the the ideas and the framework that I propose in the book, though, these will last.
32:23
SPEAKER_02: They'll be lasting no matter what the advancement of the technology is.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: The the idea of getting a proper risk assessment completed of anything they're gonna introduce to the workplace, getting workers involved, having committees, working with the workforce as they're introducing the AI technology so that they're educated and have an understanding of the benefits and features.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: I I think no matter what and how far it advanced, I mean until it until it replaces us.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, right.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: I think that framework will stand a test of time.
32:50
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
32:52
SPEAKER_06: I agree.
32:52
SPEAKER_06: It's you know, it it's a higher level of common sense, you know.
32:56
SPEAKER_06: It's uncommon common sense, but it's practical too.
32:59
SPEAKER_06: You know, it's practical, there's practical applications in there.
33:02
SPEAKER_06: So, you know, any uh any employers out there, well, who else?
33:06
SPEAKER_06: Who else would this, you know?
33:07
SPEAKER_06: I mean, I would want as an employee of a business, I would want to read this as well, not just employers, because as an employee, I want to have that kind of strategic inside, you know, so maybe I can be the guy recommending we implement these things, right?
33:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, some other, you know, anybody who's interested in technology would benefit from this book.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: Anyone who's interested in starting a business, yeah.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I mean, I'm gonna use this book to start my business to make clothing for robots.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
33:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm just kidding.
33:37
SPEAKER_06: Somebody's gonna run with it.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: Nobody's gonna do it.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: It's gonna be designer robot clothes.
33:41
SPEAKER_06: They are at at this very moment, as they are watching or listening to this, they are already typing it into their chat or whichever one they use.
33:49
SPEAKER_06: Like, how do I start this business?
33:50
SPEAKER_06: So you just created the next millionaire.
33:52
SPEAKER_06: Good job.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: I I hope somebody picks it up and runs with it, and I see a robot walking around in Gucci.
33:57
SPEAKER_06: What's robot Gucci?
34:01
SPEAKER_02: I can see the double G on the on its belt line now on the robot.
34:05
SPEAKER_06: Oh, you might yeah, absolutely.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: There's somebody else's million dollar idea.
34:09
SPEAKER_06: So my goodness.
34:11
SPEAKER_06: That maybe could be your your third book in the works, right?
34:14
SPEAKER_06: How do you use AI to create your next multi-million dollar business?
34:18
SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
34:18
SPEAKER_06: Somebody's probably already put that book out.
34:20
SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
34:21
SPEAKER_02: Make your robot fleek.
34:23
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: I think that's still a word the kids use.
34:26
SPEAKER_06: Yes, yes.
34:27
SPEAKER_06: Oh my goodness.
34:28
SPEAKER_06: That's so funny.
34:29
SPEAKER_06: They all just cringed at both of us, right?
34:30
SPEAKER_06: I know.
34:31
SPEAKER_06: They're like, oh, oh no, please stop.
34:35
SPEAKER_06: Um my goodness.
34:37
SPEAKER_06: All right.
34:38
SPEAKER_06: So we we covered a good amount of ground, but I always have this internal panic that I missed something important.
34:44
SPEAKER_06: So is there something you wish I had asked you about in regards to your book, or just something you want people to know?
34:52
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, and I and I state this in my book, and I've also stated this on some things that I've published on LinkedIn as well, that you know, we we should not be in fear of technology.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: You know, I kind of at this point take a neutral position.
35:08
SPEAKER_02: Know that it's coming.
35:09
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: Just like anything else, I I recommend everybody take some time to learn, do a little bit of research on the technology, rather, or even the data centers like we talked about earlier.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: Um you know, learn a little bit about it, you know.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: Um and I think you'll you'll see that this we're living in exciting times.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna see some pretty cool stuff in our lifetime, whether it's the curing of diseases or it's no longer having to do yard chores because you have a robot out there taking care and manicuring your yard, whatever the case may be, or robots working on the moon and moon bases established, or data centers on the moon, whatever it is.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: We're we're actually living in pretty exciting times, and I'm so excited to see what comes in the next decade.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: And I don't think we have to go down the rabbit hole of doomsday.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, there of course, with everything, there's risk and and there's different scenarios that can be brought up and thought about.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: But I, you know, there'll be some governance and some regulations that'll be passed down, put some guardrails up around some of this.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: But I think everybody should get excited about what's coming and and not fear it.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: Just embrace technology.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: And if your employer starts bringing in technology into your workplace, ask to be part of that committee, ask to be part of that selection process and get involved.
36:29
SPEAKER_06: I love that.
36:30
SPEAKER_06: I love I love that you take that fear that we mentioned.
36:33
SPEAKER_06: You kind of you kind of erase that fear a bit too, because you, you know, you have this practical approach.
36:38
SPEAKER_06: And by the way, we have people like you who come in for risk management and and help people think of these things and and point them out and correct, you know, where where we start going off course.
36:50
SPEAKER_06: And I and I think that's you know incredibly valuable.
36:53
SPEAKER_06: So I I agree with you so much that I like the neutral, I like the neutral ground.
36:58
SPEAKER_06: I I always like neutral.
36:59
SPEAKER_06: I always like staying in neutral.
37:01
SPEAKER_06: I can bounce over here a little bit, I can bounce over there over a little bit, and then come back to neutral and just kind of assess the whole thing as a whole.
37:08
SPEAKER_06: And you you take the good and you know, and you hopefully manage the bad or figure out how to manage the bad.
37:15
SPEAKER_06: So I love that your book um gives some really practical and useful uh advice and insight how to do all of these things and and show people where we've been and where we're going with it.
37:24
SPEAKER_06: So yeah.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: And like I said, we're we're we are at the cusp of the new industrial revolution.
37:31
SPEAKER_06: It's exciting.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: Things everything is gonna change.
37:34
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: Everything.
37:35
SPEAKER_06: Do you have a release date for your next book?
37:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh not yet.
37:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna actually start working on the outline this winter when I get some time.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: So very busy.
37:45
SPEAKER_06: Same same lane or completely different?
37:48
SPEAKER_02: It'll be the same lane.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think the next book it's got a working title right now of you know, a vulgar display of technology, which kind of plays into the dooms doomsday or stuff.
37:59
SPEAKER_04: Sure.
38:00
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I I plan on addressing everything from uh you know war applications to workplace applications to human replacement and ethics, AI ethics and stuff like that.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of the loose ideas around the next book.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: Very interesting.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: It'll be, you know, it'll play a little bit more into the fear stuff.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: But um my message is still clear that we remain neutral and and and learn about the technology and and participate in areas where it affects our lives, whether it's in employment or in our in our homes, that we we we actively educate ourselves and participate before we um just come to a conclusion and you know start you know sending out misinformation about technology we don't understand.
38:47
SPEAKER_06: In in other words, don't just read the headline, actually read the story, right?
38:50
SPEAKER_06: People live off of sound bites and headlines now and they think that's the full story.
38:54
SPEAKER_06: So actually read the full story, people.
38:57
SPEAKER_02: And there's some there's some companies out there right now that are doing some pretty exciting stuff.
39:03
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, everything from autonomous heavy equipment that's running and up can operate on a construction site or industrial site to uh humanoid robots that can weld and fabricate ships and and uh that are useful in both manufacturing and construction sites.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: There's little Roomba looking robots that can be on a on the empty floor of a new building and market all the walls out in one day, which would have taken you know three or four days by hand with a tape measure and uh and a spray can, you know.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: There's just some really cool stuff.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: And uh I I'm just excited to see it come, you know.
39:40
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, absolutely.
39:41
SPEAKER_06: All us techie geeks love that kind of stuff.
39:43
SPEAKER_06: You kidding?
39:45
SPEAKER_06: The rest of the rest of them, maybe not so much, but yeah, if you give it a chance and and just see what it can do, how can you not be amazed?
39:51
SPEAKER_06: I mean, the the Jetsons have nothing on what's going on now.
39:54
SPEAKER_02: Well no, we still don't have a good flying car yet.
39:57
SPEAKER_06: We don't, we don't, which is might be to me the biggest shocker that we don't have that one.
40:01
SPEAKER_06: But it also it also makes sense that we don't.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, you think about the way people maintain their cars on the road.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: Imagine if somebody had to maintain a car that flew.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: Cars dropping out of the sky all the time.
40:13
SPEAKER_06: Oh, yeah, yeah.
40:14
SPEAKER_06: We don't we don't need any of that right now.
40:16
SPEAKER_06: Maybe wait until we can master the road without being distracted first.
40:20
SPEAKER_02: I I will say in January I rode in my first Waymo in Phoenix.
40:24
SPEAKER_06: You did.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: I've never been in one.
40:26
SPEAKER_02: I at first, you know, the the the loss of control, right?
40:31
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
40:32
SPEAKER_02: Like feeling completely out of control in there was a little unnerving, but once it got going, I was very impressed.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very, very impressed with the ride.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: Um I I was like, wow, these these autonomous taxis are pretty slick.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: Everybody should everybody should check them out because it's I think it's just amazing.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: You use a phone app to bring it to you, jump in, it takes you where you need to go.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: You don't have any bad smells or any awkward conversations, you know, you just go.
41:00
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I like that part.
41:02
SPEAKER_06: No awkward science silence or awkward conversations, all of that.
41:05
SPEAKER_06: You can actually sit and do your work while it's taking you where you gotta go.
41:09
SPEAKER_06: I love that.
41:09
SPEAKER_06: I do, yeah.
41:10
SPEAKER_06: I'm gonna I'm gonna have find one and and try it.
41:12
SPEAKER_06: I don't even know if we have them in my area.
41:14
SPEAKER_06: We must.
41:14
SPEAKER_06: I don't even know.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't haven't seen any on the east coast yet.
41:18
SPEAKER_06: No, huh?
41:19
SPEAKER_02: Or in the Midwest yet.
41:20
SPEAKER_02: There may be out west though.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: I mean the climate though, kind of because I always think about like how do these things handle the ice and snow?
41:26
SPEAKER_06: Like, right, right.
41:28
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, excellent question.
41:29
SPEAKER_06: Then I would be a little bit more scared.
41:31
SPEAKER_06: I need other people can do some trial runs.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, when you're in Phoenix, you're not getting that ice and snow.
41:35
SPEAKER_06: No, definitely not.
41:36
SPEAKER_06: Oh my goodness.
41:37
SPEAKER_06: Oh, Christopher, I loved this conversation.
41:40
SPEAKER_06: This was so enlightening and so fun.
41:42
SPEAKER_06: I thank you so much for coming on the show with me today.
41:44
SPEAKER_06: I really, really appreciate you doing this.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I appreciate you having me on.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: This was a great experience.
41:48
SPEAKER_06: Awesome.
41:49
SPEAKER_06: Good.
41:49
SPEAKER_06: I'm so, so glad.
41:50
SPEAKER_06: All right, my friends.
41:51
SPEAKER_06: I will put the links for Christopher's book in the show notes.
41:55
SPEAKER_06: You'll be able to go there and website too, yes?
41:58
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: Uh www.artiofficienomics.com.
42:01
SPEAKER_06: Perfect.
42:01
SPEAKER_06: They'll both be in the show notes.
42:03
SPEAKER_06: You can click right on them and go get those books and uh read some more from Christopher.
42:07
SPEAKER_06: And again, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
42:10
SPEAKER_06: You got it.
42:11
SPEAKER_06: Take care, guys.
42:11
SPEAKER_06: We'll see you in the next episode.
42:13
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42:17
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