Latest / Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast / Can the Cardinals keep up current hot streak?

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Can the Cardinals keep up current hot streak? · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:05
Speaker 1: Break out the brooms. The Saint Louis Cardinals sweep the
0:07
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh Pirates. They are back to five hundred, a season
0:11
Speaker 1: high five game win streak, and all of a sudden,
0:14
Speaker 1: we're maybe feeling a little bit better about this club
0:16
Speaker 1: than we were a couple of weeks ago. Welcome back
0:19
Speaker 1: to Cardinal territory, Katie we Bernie, Miclis, Back at you, Bernie.
0:22
Speaker 1: It's been a minute. How are you.
0:24
Speaker 2: I'm doing well. It's been a really intriguing time to
0:27
Speaker 2: watch the Cardinals because there there's been some new stuff.
0:31
Speaker 2: There's been there's been some changes. Pardon me, my laptop's
0:34
Speaker 2: trying to speak to me for some reason.
0:37
Speaker 3: It's uh yeah, I.
0:38
Speaker 2: Mean we know that they're good at home, but they
0:40
Speaker 2: really I think they showed everybody something anyone skeptical about
0:43
Speaker 2: their ability to beat good teams. You know, winning that
0:45
Speaker 2: double hudder from the Mets was impressive, and I you know,
0:49
Speaker 2: I've gotten some stuff from fans like, well, anybody can
0:52
Speaker 2: beat the Pirates.
0:52
Speaker 3: Well, the Cardinals didn't beat the Pirates in Pittsburgh.
0:54
Speaker 2: So that's one of my pet peeves when media or
0:58
Speaker 2: fans where they part wins as if like some wins
1:01
Speaker 2: are illegitimate, are you kidding? Met Like, during the course
1:04
Speaker 2: of the season, man, bad teams can rise up and
1:07
Speaker 2: beat you, just like this. White Sox beat the Cardinals
1:10
Speaker 2: last year in a series, every victory counts the same,
1:14
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter who you're playing. So I thought it
1:17
Speaker 2: was a needless to say, a great homestand and starting
1:20
Speaker 2: with that doubleheader sweep in Cincinnati. I mean, they've won
1:23
Speaker 2: seven out of nine and they're playing really good ball.
1:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think it's their their best stretch of
1:28
Speaker 1: baseball by far this season. Things are going well. They
1:31
Speaker 1: have these set they're tied for the best record at home.
1:35
Speaker 1: But I'm agree. I agree with you, Bernie. That doubleheader
1:37
Speaker 1: against the Mets on Sunday really set the tone. And
1:39
Speaker 1: I know Pittsburgh has been scuffling, but to your point,
1:41
Speaker 1: you still have to beat them. And I thought the
1:43
Speaker 1: Cardinals had a very very well pitched series. Whether you're
1:47
Speaker 1: looking at the rotation or the bullpen. I know we're
1:49
Speaker 1: going to get to the bullpen later in the show.
1:51
Speaker 1: Some timely hitting. Good to see Alec Burlison heating up.
1:54
Speaker 1: Good to see Wilson Contreres continue his hot streak. Some
1:58
Speaker 1: really good at bats and all around play. Victor Scott
2:00
Speaker 1: the Second and if you missed it, we have an
2:02
Speaker 1: interview episode with him from Monday up on Cardinal Territory.
2:05
Speaker 1: He was really good. I think it's exciting to see
2:09
Speaker 1: some of the kids take steps forward. Victor Scott's day
2:12
Speaker 1: alone scores from first twice, manufacturers, two runs on the
2:17
Speaker 1: base paths, He's Robin home runs from one Soto, He's confident,
2:20
Speaker 1: he's fun. I really like what we're seeing out of him.
2:23
Speaker 1: And we're almost forty games into the season. It looks
2:25
Speaker 1: like Victor Scott the Second you can check mark him
2:28
Speaker 1: as a success story so far as far as runway development, transition.
2:32
Speaker 1: Pick your favorite Cardinals buzzword. He seems to have gotten
2:34
Speaker 1: this opportunity and run with it, no pun and headed right.
2:37
Speaker 2: And to me, the two in the runway season, the
2:42
Speaker 2: two guys that really fit the runway objective, right. I mean,
2:47
Speaker 2: I think sometimes we talk about some players, actually I
2:49
Speaker 2: don't know that they're runway players. I mean Brennan Donovan
2:52
Speaker 2: in large New bar been in the big leagues for
2:54
Speaker 2: a while. You know, we got I think we got
2:56
Speaker 2: to be more selective about that. So with that said
3:00
Speaker 2: Matthew Libertor on the pitching side and Victor Scott on
3:02
Speaker 2: the position player side. Liberator is one of the best
3:05
Speaker 2: starting pitchers in the majors so far. He really is.
3:09
Speaker 2: And you know, I got a million stats to back
3:10
Speaker 2: that up, which I won't do. I did put it
3:13
Speaker 2: in my column at the sports hubstl dot com if
3:16
Speaker 2: people want to go, look, he's one of the best
3:18
Speaker 2: starting pitchers in the majors. And he's also averaging like
3:22
Speaker 2: eight point three four strikeouts per nine innings. And Katie,
3:26
Speaker 2: here's a stat boy thing, but I think it's a
3:28
Speaker 2: good one because the Cardinals have not had a power
3:32
Speaker 2: lefty starting pitcher since Rick and Keel had that one
3:36
Speaker 2: really good season in two thousand. During the expansion era
3:40
Speaker 2: which began in nineteen sixty one. When we're talking about
3:43
Speaker 2: not guys gone back and forth starting, you know, bullpen
3:46
Speaker 2: guys who are plugged in as full time members of
3:48
Speaker 2: the rotation. There's only been three starting pitchers that have
3:52
Speaker 2: averaged eight plus strikeouts per nine innings and Keel in
3:59
Speaker 2: two thousand, Steve Carlton in nineteen sixty nine, and Liberatore
4:04
Speaker 2: so far this year. He obviously has to sustain it.
4:07
Speaker 2: So he's doing something we have not seen this organization
4:11
Speaker 2: turn out really hardly at all since the during the
4:15
Speaker 2: expansion mayor a power lefty and I just I am
4:19
Speaker 2: just blown away by how great he is. And I'm
4:21
Speaker 2: gonna ask you this. I mean, you were around a
4:24
Speaker 2: lot covering him. I mean, the poor guy. He's going
4:27
Speaker 2: back and forth a bullpen, this and that, and you know,
4:29
Speaker 2: right handed hitters are killing him, which they don't do
4:32
Speaker 2: this year, And it's just like you want to.
4:34
Speaker 3: I always felt sorry for the guy, always did.
4:37
Speaker 2: And what was his body language, his demeanor, like during
4:42
Speaker 2: all those tough years that led into this really terrific year,
4:46
Speaker 2: what was his body demeanor and all that stuff?
4:48
Speaker 1: Like, I'm glad you asked that, because it's night and day,
4:51
Speaker 1: not just performance on the field with Libby, but overall
4:54
Speaker 1: body language, mindset from where he was in twenty twenty two,
4:57
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three to where he is in twenty twenty
4:59
Speaker 1: five on the athletics. Soon in the next few days,
5:02
Speaker 1: we'll have a profile on Libby and all the changes
5:04
Speaker 1: that he's made that's led him to this point over
5:05
Speaker 1: the last four years. And he reminded me that his
5:08
Speaker 1: legacy really was cemented his major league debut. He makes
5:12
Speaker 1: it in Pittsburgh and he's often to Memphis at eight
5:14
Speaker 1: am the next day, and so began the back and
5:17
Speaker 1: forth of Matthew Libertore. And that can be so so
5:21
Speaker 1: hard for a twenty two to twenty three year old
5:23
Speaker 1: top prospect. He was a number one draft pick. You're
5:25
Speaker 1: already carrying a ton of weight to not have clarity
5:28
Speaker 1: and how you're going to be used, whether it's starter, reliever,
5:30
Speaker 1: triple A major league and to consistently be kind of
5:34
Speaker 1: just shoved around and called up out of need, and
5:36
Speaker 1: your development as a picture not being prioritized. That can
5:39
Speaker 1: really take a toll on you. But credit to Libby
5:41
Speaker 1: because eventually he just embraced that uncertainty. And if you
5:45
Speaker 1: want to know how difficult that is for young pitchers
5:47
Speaker 1: to do. The Cardinals didn't want to do it to
5:49
Speaker 1: any more of their own pictures. They said, if we're
5:51
Speaker 1: going to do this anymore, it's going to be to
5:52
Speaker 1: a veteran who can handle it. So Steven matt step
5:55
Speaker 1: on up. But they saw what it was doing to
5:57
Speaker 1: Libby and to Zach Thompson and to Andre Polante, to
5:59
Speaker 1: an extent, and they said, you know what, it stops here.
6:02
Speaker 1: And when you talk to Olie Marmle or Dusty Blake
6:05
Speaker 1: or Julio Rangelda other assistant pitching coach, you hear them
6:08
Speaker 1: talk about Libertoire's conviction in himself where he's no longer
6:12
Speaker 1: hesitant or unsure of where he belongs because he was
6:14
Speaker 1: given an opportunity. But when you say given, they'll push
6:18
Speaker 1: back and say no, he earned that. He spent his
6:20
Speaker 1: off season determined to come in and be a starter.
6:22
Speaker 1: He handled his spring training top notch. He forced his
6:25
Speaker 1: way into our conversation and made us say okay, similar
6:29
Speaker 1: to what they did with Victor Scott. Victor Scott made
6:31
Speaker 1: them make a choice and reward him betthew Liberatory did
6:35
Speaker 1: the exact same thing Victor Scott did from a rotation standpoint,
6:38
Speaker 1: and now we're seeing the results.
6:40
Speaker 3: You know, Katie, you know that.
6:42
Speaker 2: By the way, cut me off if I'm jumping into
6:45
Speaker 2: something you want to talk about later, so and I
6:48
Speaker 2: will not take it personally, obviously, but I was thinking
6:51
Speaker 2: about this today. You know, the Cardinals offense, even with Frankly,
6:55
Speaker 2: Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman not doing too much. You know,
7:00
Speaker 2: I didn't check the rankings today, but there I know
7:03
Speaker 2: as of like Monday morning, they were basically a top ten,
7:07
Speaker 2: top eleven, top twelve offense in the majors. I mean,
7:10
Speaker 2: they really scored well in every category. And yeah, when
7:14
Speaker 2: they're bad, they look really bad. But you know, if
7:16
Speaker 2: you look at the body of work, it's been a
7:18
Speaker 2: good offense. And that's without Gorman and Walker doing much.
7:22
Speaker 2: It's almost incredible to even contemplate what would what this
7:27
Speaker 2: offense would be if those two guys get going. And
7:30
Speaker 2: I don't know when or if they'll get going, but
7:33
Speaker 2: it's a pleasant thought, I think so definitely.
7:36
Speaker 1: I like what we saw from Jordan Walker today that
7:38
Speaker 1: final at bat in the eighth two insurance runs there
7:40
Speaker 1: he needed something to go right. It's been a grind,
7:42
Speaker 1: and you hope you'll see that from Gorman too. And
7:44
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman
7:46
Speaker 1: because as we transition to our next topic, which is Runway,
7:50
Speaker 1: those are the two guys we talk about. But we
7:51
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7:54
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8:00
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8:02
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8:04
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8:05
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8:22
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8:41
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9:07
Speaker 1: All right, Bernie, I know you can see me backstage
9:08
Speaker 1: when the ADVD is on. I would just like to
9:10
Speaker 1: clarify that I'm drinking of water, not a beer. The
9:13
Speaker 1: can does look like a beer, but I promise I
9:15
Speaker 1: am not drinking on the pod it is a water.
9:17
Speaker 2: Well, after we record this, you can have all the
9:19
Speaker 2: beer you want.
9:20
Speaker 3: Well.
9:21
Speaker 1: I have a ten day road trip coming up, so
9:23
Speaker 1: I need to stay strong.
9:25
Speaker 2: Well, so you can have all the beer you want
9:28
Speaker 2: after work on the road.
9:30
Speaker 1: That may or may not tend to happens to say. So,
9:34
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about Runway, specifically with Nolan
9:37
Speaker 1: Gorman and Jordan Walker, because whether this is fair or not,
9:39
Speaker 1: whether they asked for it or not, they didn't. They
9:42
Speaker 1: are really the faces of this transition year, and that
9:44
Speaker 1: might be because of their pedigree as former top prospects
9:47
Speaker 1: or because of their inconsistency is from twenty two to
9:50
Speaker 1: twenty three on and the overall consensus from the organization
9:54
Speaker 1: whereas it feels like even though they are so young,
9:57
Speaker 1: this is the year where the Cardinals figure out if
9:59
Speaker 1: Jordan Walker and and Gorman are part of their long
10:01
Speaker 1: term future. So the whole point of the season, again
10:05
Speaker 1: everyone's favorite word runway, was to give that to Gorman
10:09
Speaker 1: and to Walker, and if they had a slow April,
10:11
Speaker 1: like both of them did, they were going to be okay.
10:14
Speaker 1: They were going to continue to get playing time, they
10:16
Speaker 1: were going to continue to work through their things at
10:17
Speaker 1: the major league level. I think we're seeing Jordan Walker
10:20
Speaker 1: start to trend a little bit more in the right direction.
10:22
Speaker 1: His one hit today and was very timely, very necessary
10:25
Speaker 1: for both him and the team. You'd like to see
10:27
Speaker 1: Gorman cut down of the strikeout rate, make more contact.
10:30
Speaker 1: My question is, and this is something I hope to
10:32
Speaker 1: have more clarity on very soon, is if you're the
10:35
Speaker 1: Cardinals and your Wayne Runway versus results from both a
10:39
Speaker 1: team and a player standpoint, where do you draw the line?
10:43
Speaker 1: I personally didn't think after one month that's enough time,
10:47
Speaker 1: but especially if the Cardinals keep up their place and
10:50
Speaker 1: stay around five hundred, where do you draw the line?
10:52
Speaker 1: If you're the Cardinals, It's a.
10:54
Speaker 2: Tough question to answer, you know, I asked Ali Marvel,
10:58
Speaker 2: Dad about two weeks ago on Cam Wax on the
11:01
Speaker 2: guest House Gang. He's on every Tuesday. It's live from
11:04
Speaker 2: twelve to about twelve thirty five, And I asked him
11:07
Speaker 2: about it, in effect the short version of the question
11:11
Speaker 2: Bucker Gorman, they're off the slow starts, is the runway unlimited?
11:17
Speaker 2: And he listen.
11:18
Speaker 3: First of all, he said, well, first.
11:19
Speaker 2: Of all, we're nowhere near thinking about this. But I
11:23
Speaker 2: thought he has been really candid, and I know when
11:24
Speaker 2: you guys have asked him about this, he's been really candid.
11:27
Speaker 2: He has said he has not couched it at all
11:29
Speaker 2: when he thinks that they look either one of them
11:32
Speaker 2: or both of them look defeated, where they are just
11:35
Speaker 2: mentally defeated and they're having a harder and harder time
11:40
Speaker 2: handling it, and they and they hear all the criticism
11:43
Speaker 2: everybody talking about him, and after a while it's the
11:46
Speaker 2: coping skills aren't great. You know, Ali was saying, you know,
11:51
Speaker 2: at some point you have to think about getting them
11:53
Speaker 2: in an environment that's not going to have as much
11:55
Speaker 2: pressure and let them regroup. So you know, you're at
12:00
Speaker 2: this all the time. I know I'm asked this all
12:01
Speaker 2: the time. I don't think you and I.
12:03
Speaker 3: Can really even have a really good guest of it.
12:07
Speaker 2: Maybe you can about when this runway would run out
12:10
Speaker 2: at least at least, you know, to give them a
12:14
Speaker 2: breather at Memphis. But I think they're on the clock.
12:19
Speaker 2: And when I say on the clock, I don't know.
12:21
Speaker 2: That's another thing. I don't know how many, how many.
12:23
Speaker 2: I don't know how big the clock is as far
12:25
Speaker 2: as time, or they'll reset the clock. I don't know,
12:28
Speaker 2: but they're going to have to pick it up now.
12:31
Speaker 2: The one thing about Gorman I like, and it's not me,
12:33
Speaker 2: you know, trying to be mister nice guy looking for positives.
12:37
Speaker 2: You know, when I was going over his stuff this morning,
12:39
Speaker 2: you know he his chase rate is way down this year.
12:43
Speaker 2: I mean he's really laying off a lot of bad pitches,
12:46
Speaker 2: and his walk rate's really good. Like I think his
12:49
Speaker 2: plate makes a lot more walks, right, I think his
12:52
Speaker 2: plate discipline has really improved now going into today, and
12:56
Speaker 2: I think he's struck out a couple of times.
12:58
Speaker 3: His strikeout rate is still a little too.
13:00
Speaker 2: I was twenty seven percent, but it's not nearly as
13:03
Speaker 2: high as it was last year. So with Gorman, I
13:07
Speaker 2: always thought that Listen, if he if he can have
13:12
Speaker 2: that plate discipline and that strike zone judgment, you know,
13:15
Speaker 2: the rest will fall into place. Now, you know, I
13:19
Speaker 2: in one of your colleagues at The Athletic wrote about this,
13:22
Speaker 2: although I swear you know I was looking into this too,
13:26
Speaker 2: you know, Aino Sarahs wrote about it. Walker's excuse me.
13:31
Speaker 2: Gorman has lost a lot of bat speed from last year.
13:33
Speaker 2: So what's happening? And I looked this up his poll rate. Like,
13:38
Speaker 2: first of all, his fly ball rate is the highest
13:40
Speaker 2: of his career. That's good because that's power zone stuff, right,
13:43
Speaker 2: But his poll rate is really really low, and his
13:46
Speaker 2: exit velocity is really really down, so he's going to
13:49
Speaker 2: need to pull the ball to hit home runs. The
13:51
Speaker 2: bat's not quick enough for him to pull as much
13:53
Speaker 2: as he has to, and the exit velocity, to me,
13:58
Speaker 2: is a clear indication of of the drop in batch beat.
14:02
Speaker 2: Can he increase the batch beat? I think he can,
14:05
Speaker 2: but I think it's worth pointing that out. What the
14:07
Speaker 2: one thing that's really holding him back? Right now?
14:11
Speaker 1: Yeah? I agree, And maybe this is a microcosm of
14:15
Speaker 1: the major swing overhaul that he's changed. You know, when
14:19
Speaker 1: I thought Ally had a good point over. I can't
14:20
Speaker 1: remember what day it was, but we were talking about
14:22
Speaker 1: if players like Walker or Gorman need to go back
14:25
Speaker 1: to what they were doing in twenty two or twenty
14:27
Speaker 1: three when they were having success and all. He said,
14:29
Speaker 1: I think that's the wrong way to look at it.
14:30
Speaker 1: I think if we tried to encourage these guys to
14:32
Speaker 1: go back to what they were doing, they're not making
14:33
Speaker 1: any growth going forward. We need to find new ways
14:35
Speaker 1: to ensure that they can have more consistent success, and
14:38
Speaker 1: maybe that's part of some of the swing changes Gorman
14:40
Speaker 1: has made. I agree. It's a great point about the walks.
14:42
Speaker 1: When you have a power hitter swing and missus is
14:44
Speaker 1: always going to be part of your game. So twenty
14:46
Speaker 1: seven percent for a power hitting guy, I think most
14:49
Speaker 1: clubs will take that as long as the power is
14:51
Speaker 1: coming through, and in Gorman's cases, you pointed out that
14:53
Speaker 1: hasn't been there. So it's worth monitoring both of these trends.
14:57
Speaker 1: We know what to look forward with Gorman, we know
14:58
Speaker 1: what we're looking for with Walker. I had a chance
15:01
Speaker 1: to catch up with John Mozelok over the week. This
15:04
Speaker 1: story will also be out on The Athletic. In fact,
15:06
Speaker 1: I'm doing it right after this podcast, and it was
15:09
Speaker 1: a really good conversation and where he talked about the
15:11
Speaker 1: runway being important and he said, look, we're still trying
15:14
Speaker 1: to win ball games, but the runway is important for
15:16
Speaker 1: these players. And then he said something that I thought
15:18
Speaker 1: was really interesting. He said, it's not infinite, so eventually
15:22
Speaker 1: Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman are going to have to
15:24
Speaker 1: post numbers in production. But the Cardinals do not feel
15:27
Speaker 1: like they're at that point right now where they need
15:28
Speaker 1: to make drastic changes, and I expect my speculation is
15:33
Speaker 1: that will be that way through at least the month
15:35
Speaker 1: of May, maybe even into mid June, because caveat when
15:38
Speaker 1: you play in the National League Central, if you are
15:40
Speaker 1: hovering around five hundred, you are in it. We talk
15:43
Speaker 1: about this a lot on the podcast. They're what three
15:45
Speaker 1: games out, and they had a terrible April, and they're
15:48
Speaker 1: still very much in contention for the division. So I
15:51
Speaker 1: think the next six weeks for the Cardinals, and so
15:53
Speaker 1: much can happen in six weeks in a baseball season,
15:55
Speaker 1: so bear with me. But the next six weeks for
15:57
Speaker 1: Saint Louis are going to be so indicative showing where
16:01
Speaker 1: Jordan Walker is where Nolan Gorman is and where the
16:04
Speaker 1: Cardinals are, and we'll all plan to the decisions they
16:06
Speaker 1: make on the long term future. Now, the easy solution
16:09
Speaker 1: here they start to Rake problem solved, We're not talking
16:12
Speaker 1: about this anymore. But if this current trend continues over
16:15
Speaker 1: the next two to three weeks as the Cardinals approach June,
16:18
Speaker 1: then I think they'll maybe have to make a decision
16:20
Speaker 1: on that runway. So that's what I'm monitoring, because again,
16:22
Speaker 1: I think those two are by far the most fascinating
16:24
Speaker 1: names in this runway movement. So we'll see how the
16:26
Speaker 1: Cardinals go from there. But I did think it was
16:28
Speaker 1: interesting that most said the runway is not infinite. Cardinals
16:31
Speaker 1: fans check out that story. I think it goes up Friday.
16:34
Speaker 1: But it was a really candid, honest conversation with Moe Loo.
16:37
Speaker 2: Looking forward to that very very much, and I think
16:39
Speaker 2: you did a good job there of putting in a
16:41
Speaker 2: framework of the parameters as far as the timetable, and
16:46
Speaker 2: the only question I have, yeah, they have some versatility
16:50
Speaker 2: on the roster. I mean Donovan can play in the outfield,
16:52
Speaker 2: Nut Bark and go to Wright. If Gorman went down,
16:58
Speaker 2: you know, well, well, First of all, listens get more
17:00
Speaker 2: at bats now anyway, But if Gorman would go down,
17:05
Speaker 2: then I you know, does that mean sa jac gets
17:08
Speaker 2: a chance to be the second baseman? You know? So
17:11
Speaker 2: I'm wondering, like what the next step would be, and
17:14
Speaker 2: there's we obviously know like one would go down and
17:17
Speaker 2: then maybe later another would go down. I'd be really
17:20
Speaker 2: surprised they sent both of them down at the same time.
17:23
Speaker 2: But what how would the dominoes fall in your view?
17:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a fair question, I think you would one.
17:29
Speaker 1: I don't know what the Cardinals are going to do
17:31
Speaker 1: when Yvon Herrera comes up. I don't know if he'll
17:33
Speaker 1: be activated by Friday. That was there like tentative. Maybe
17:35
Speaker 1: we'll see uh timeline, but I would expect at some
17:38
Speaker 1: point there's some three the sext road trip, we see
17:40
Speaker 1: Von Herrera. I don't know if Poso will stay or
17:43
Speaker 1: if Luken Baker goes down. You can make an argument
17:46
Speaker 1: for both. I'm actually a little bit inclined to believe
17:48
Speaker 1: my speculation that Poso would stay, just because I'm not
17:51
Speaker 1: sure if you want to push Herrera as the everyday
17:54
Speaker 1: catcher coming back from a knee injury. We'll see so
17:57
Speaker 1: that corresponding move a plane is something. I don't know
17:59
Speaker 1: if we'll see JC and I, but I do know
18:01
Speaker 1: we'll only see him if there's continuous room to play
18:05
Speaker 1: every day. Right, That's the whole reason he went down
18:07
Speaker 1: in the first place. He wasn't gonna get consistent playing time.
18:09
Speaker 1: You can do this where you have Donovan and left,
18:12
Speaker 1: and you have new barn right and Scott's stays and center,
18:15
Speaker 1: and then you need a second basement, and that's how
18:16
Speaker 1: you could create your playing time versus JC. But that's
18:19
Speaker 1: only if you end up optioning Gorman, and the Cardinals
18:21
Speaker 1: don't want to do that. The Cardinals do not want
18:23
Speaker 1: to option Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman. They want them
18:26
Speaker 1: to figure it out. That's why they're getting such an
18:28
Speaker 1: extended time to do so. So for storylines, I know,
18:32
Speaker 1: we're always so caught up in like what's the next move,
18:33
Speaker 1: what's the next transaction? You know, the Cardinals cannot afford
18:37
Speaker 1: to be impatient and after a week long slump just
18:41
Speaker 1: ship a guy out to Memphis. That's not the point
18:43
Speaker 1: of the season. And to their credit, they have been
18:45
Speaker 1: consistent about that, consistent about one thing and giving those
18:49
Speaker 1: players runway, and they highlighted Jordan Walker and Nolan Gorman
18:52
Speaker 1: as their top two priorities for this. So we'll see,
18:55
Speaker 1: hopefully they figure it out, because it's a much more
18:57
Speaker 1: exciting and better Cardinals team, especially offensively when those two
19:01
Speaker 1: are swinging it.
19:02
Speaker 2: And you know, far be it for me to defend
19:04
Speaker 2: John Moslak. But I know he never said, well, we're
19:11
Speaker 2: going to commit to these guys and they're going to
19:13
Speaker 2: be up here all year. No matter what he did,
19:16
Speaker 2: he never said that. What he did say, and I
19:17
Speaker 2: think people like took that and you know this comments,
19:21
Speaker 2: they kind of thought he was implying that.
19:22
Speaker 5: No.
19:23
Speaker 2: I mean, the quotes were out there a lot where
19:25
Speaker 2: he basically says, what we would like to do is
19:27
Speaker 2: give them, you know, five hundred plate appearances, five hundred
19:31
Speaker 2: and fifty plate appearances, you know, and give them that
19:33
Speaker 2: full opportunity. But he never There was never a guarantee
19:37
Speaker 2: or even a strongly implied that they would be up
19:41
Speaker 2: here all year no matter how bad they're hitting.
19:44
Speaker 1: No, never, And the one thing that was consistent was
19:47
Speaker 1: him insisting that the Cardinals are trying to win. And
19:49
Speaker 1: you can volarize it that, but they are trying to
19:53
Speaker 1: win with the roster that they have, and if if
19:57
Speaker 1: you think that the Cardinals can maybe keep up this
20:00
Speaker 1: pace and stay right around five hundred again and maybe
20:02
Speaker 1: they could compete. That they're trying to win, which is
20:05
Speaker 1: why they didn't trade half their players, well half their players,
20:07
Speaker 1: they couldn't. But it's why they have Eric Beetty on
20:09
Speaker 1: the roster still, It's why Steven Matts is still here,
20:11
Speaker 1: It's why Brian Helsley is still here, because yes, they
20:14
Speaker 1: are trying to develop players, but they are also still
20:16
Speaker 1: trying to play competitive baseball and that has been the
20:19
Speaker 1: message Moe has said since day one. So speaking of
20:22
Speaker 1: Brian Helsley, by the way, perfect segue, because Bernie, it
20:25
Speaker 1: is only right after we spend multiple episodes talking about
20:29
Speaker 1: the bullpen, maybe complaining about the bullpen, a therapy session
20:32
Speaker 1: about the bullpen every now and then. The bullpen had
20:35
Speaker 1: a really good week. So in this five game stretch,
20:39
Speaker 1: just two earned runs over seventeen and two third relief innings,
20:42
Speaker 1: eight scoreless relief innings from the bullpen throughout the Pittsburgh series,
20:46
Speaker 1: and we have some usage changes here. You're gonna see
20:49
Speaker 1: Steven Matts and Gordon grisseto in short stints and relief
20:53
Speaker 1: for now for the immediate future, and you can read
20:55
Speaker 1: about this on the Athletic. A lot of shameless plugs
20:57
Speaker 1: from us today get used to it. We've been working
20:59
Speaker 1: very hard. That's why, Bernie, and here's why. So we
21:02
Speaker 1: know why the Cardinals did their six man ish rotation,
21:05
Speaker 1: and we know about the importance of preserving depth and
21:07
Speaker 1: making sure that you're giving your starters the best chance
21:10
Speaker 1: to stay healthy.
21:11
Speaker 2: Well.
21:11
Speaker 1: The Cardinals from today May seventh through the end of
21:15
Speaker 1: the month have every Thursday off, so they can keep
21:18
Speaker 1: all five of their regular starters on a six day
21:20
Speaker 1: schedule without having to insert the hybrid role that belongs
21:23
Speaker 1: to Stephen Mattz. So for at least the next three weeks,
21:27
Speaker 1: maybe four, you will see Stephen mats use similar in
21:30
Speaker 1: a role that Matthew Liberture was used last year. I
21:32
Speaker 1: asked oll if that was a fair comparison to make,
21:35
Speaker 1: and he said, that's exactly the way he's looking at it.
21:37
Speaker 1: You'll see Stephen Matts either a high leverage lefty lane
21:42
Speaker 1: or multi innings where he can go ahead and you
21:45
Speaker 1: know see maybe one to two, potentially three if they
21:48
Speaker 1: need it. Innings in relief Gordon Groseppo, same thing from
21:52
Speaker 1: the right side. What a great week to be Gordon
21:56
Speaker 1: grossepho first career win in Cincinnati if you know, five
21:59
Speaker 1: innings of relief, comes in on Monday, a scorelessening to
22:02
Speaker 1: bridge the Cardinals to they're big guys at the end,
22:06
Speaker 1: and then picks up his first career save on Tuesday.
22:08
Speaker 1: You'll see Gordon Groceppo in short stints, maybe not the
22:11
Speaker 1: length as Matt's, but they really want to see what
22:14
Speaker 1: he can do as kind of the secondary tier. And
22:17
Speaker 1: when you figure out and think about why the Cardinals
22:19
Speaker 1: are doing this, Bernie, we know they've had a very
22:22
Speaker 1: hard time bridging to their setup men. They have a
22:25
Speaker 1: right handed or three right handers that they really like,
22:29
Speaker 1: Kyle Ahy, film Ay, Tom Ryan Helsley. They trust them
22:31
Speaker 1: a lot. The problem is they haven't been able to
22:33
Speaker 1: get to them a lot. We know that Bryan Fernandez
22:36
Speaker 1: did not have the season start that he wanted. Jojo
22:37
Speaker 1: Romero has looked better, but still working on that circle
22:40
Speaker 1: of trust. So if you're the Cardinals, you're looking at
22:43
Speaker 1: how to best get there. They think by putting Gordon
22:46
Speaker 1: Groseppo in and Steven Mattson, you'll have a better chance
22:49
Speaker 1: to bridge to your big three in the back end
22:51
Speaker 1: of the ball game. And that's what we saw in
22:54
Speaker 1: the Pittsburgh series.
22:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of things. Ali Marno told us on
22:58
Speaker 2: Tuesday that Dusty Blake found a mechanical flaw uh in
23:05
Speaker 2: Romero's delivery, and they were they were mystified why his
23:09
Speaker 2: villa was so down, and Dusty Blake, you know, recommended
23:13
Speaker 2: to change.
23:13
Speaker 3: They had a bullpen and apparently his villa went up.
23:18
Speaker 2: So maybe there's there's there's a really good chance or
23:22
Speaker 2: just a chance that he'll be better from this point forward.
23:25
Speaker 2: And then the other thing, and if I if you
23:27
Speaker 2: don't mind me, you know, throwing a couple of numbers
23:30
Speaker 2: out there, because and they're simple numbers. They're not I'm
23:32
Speaker 2: not getting in esitaria here. You know, I'm not. No
23:37
Speaker 2: one's blaming Ryan Fernandez for all the bullpen issues they had,
23:40
Speaker 2: but let's be honest here. I mean, obviously it was
23:42
Speaker 2: a huge deal because they thought he was going to
23:44
Speaker 2: be the eighth inning guy and they didn't want to
23:47
Speaker 2: give up on that opportunity too soon. But he just
23:50
Speaker 2: it just it just became hopeless and he had to
23:53
Speaker 2: go regroup. Okay, here here's the here's what I want
23:56
Speaker 2: to tell you. I looked at this, I did, I
23:58
Speaker 2: did this early, this late, this after. Pardon me, you know,
24:02
Speaker 2: with Fernandez bullpen, and I only use him because he
24:05
Speaker 2: his demotion represented a turning point, that's all. He wasn't
24:08
Speaker 2: the only problem. Before he went down to Memphis, the
24:12
Speaker 2: bullpen had a five to eleven ERA. There werelievers combined
24:17
Speaker 2: to lose eight games. They had six blown saves and
24:22
Speaker 2: only five saves. Okay, those are gruesome numbers all across
24:27
Speaker 2: the board. Okay, since he was demoted and then the
24:32
Speaker 2: first game they played after that was April to twenty fifth.
24:34
Speaker 2: Since that point, including today, the Cardinals bullpen's got a
24:38
Speaker 2: two point six to six ERA. The relievers have four wins,
24:42
Speaker 2: four saves, and only one blown save. And by the way,
24:46
Speaker 2: the inherited runners percentage of scoring. It went from fifty
24:52
Speaker 2: percent when Fernandez was part of the bullpen and now
24:55
Speaker 2: it's down to about thirty percent since this big change.
25:00
Speaker 2: The changes were starting to come in the bullpen. Now
25:03
Speaker 2: to me, those are just really stark numbers that just
25:06
Speaker 2: tell you the story. Like the before and the after picture.
25:10
Speaker 2: This bullpen has been outstanding since about April and twenty fifth. There's, yeah,
25:16
Speaker 2: could they strike out more guys, Sure, but you know
25:21
Speaker 2: what you're talking about. They're you know, they're cultivating new sources.
25:25
Speaker 2: They're giving more opportunities to different guys. They're also moving
25:29
Speaker 2: up a guy like Kyle Lahy in a more high
25:31
Speaker 2: leverage spots. They've known they'll do that with Grissefo. So
25:35
Speaker 2: this bullpen remix since April twenty fifth is working very
25:39
Speaker 2: very well. I don't think it's a fluke either, because
25:42
Speaker 2: with them success, they're also getting Ryan Helsley into more
25:45
Speaker 2: games for save opportunities. And before that it was a
25:48
Speaker 2: huge problem because he was sitting around, sitting around, sitting
25:51
Speaker 2: around for save opportunities that never came, and his sharpness
25:54
Speaker 2: was really impacted in a negative way by that. Okay,
25:57
Speaker 2: there you go. There's my presentation Katie.
26:00
Speaker 1: Oh on no Bernie, because I think it really puts
26:01
Speaker 1: into perspective like just how good this bullpen has been.
26:04
Speaker 1: And we naturally fixate on it when it's bad because
26:07
Speaker 1: it loses games. But it's been slowly but surely much
26:11
Speaker 1: more effective. And talking to Dusty Blake, today, he said, Yeah,
26:14
Speaker 1: as a group, our Rilo's coming up. We're being more
26:16
Speaker 1: effective in the strike zone, and we have made some
26:18
Speaker 1: changes in role usage. And here's why, bridging to those
26:21
Speaker 1: guys like you mentioned or that we mentioned is so
26:23
Speaker 1: so important. So the Cardinals played twenty seven games in April, right,
26:27
Speaker 1: Seventeen of those twenty seven games were decided by three
26:29
Speaker 1: runs or fewer. Twelve of those seventeen games losses. And
26:34
Speaker 1: where were those losses being really taking place? In the
26:37
Speaker 1: late inning the seventh in eighth because the Cardinals could
26:40
Speaker 1: not find a way to really bridge to Ryan Helsley.
26:43
Speaker 1: So you think about twenty twenty four, I'll throw some
26:46
Speaker 1: numbers at you. The Cardinals went thirty one and twenty
26:49
Speaker 1: five and one run games in twenty twenty four, and
26:51
Speaker 1: they also had one of the most effective bullpens in baseball.
26:55
Speaker 1: The reason that they were able to play or be
26:58
Speaker 1: relatively successful those one run games is because of their bullpen.
27:00
Speaker 1: You had Hellsley in the ninth lead saves or lead
27:03
Speaker 1: baseball with forty nine saves. You had two setup men
27:06
Speaker 1: Jojo Romero from the left side and your Kitchen from
27:08
Speaker 1: the right side that were lights out and when they
27:11
Speaker 1: couldn't go or they were having an off night. Your
27:13
Speaker 1: secondary pieces and Ryan Fernandez and Matthew Libertore, you felt
27:17
Speaker 1: comfortable slotting them in, especially in the second half of
27:19
Speaker 1: the season. Well, the Cardinals are hoping that with lay
27:23
Speaker 1: Hey and Mayton because lay yeah, they're all three right handers.
27:26
Speaker 1: When you compare them with Helsley, lay he's not overly
27:29
Speaker 1: splity at all though, so he can easily take a
27:30
Speaker 1: lefty lane and he has before. If you have those three,
27:34
Speaker 1: the Cardinals are hoping that Stephen Mats and Gordon Grisseppo
27:37
Speaker 1: can be those secondary pieces similar to how Fernandez and
27:40
Speaker 1: Liberatore were used in twenty twenty four and when a
27:43
Speaker 1: very small sample size, I know, but both Matt's Matth's
27:46
Speaker 1: look good all year and Gricefo's stuff has really looked
27:48
Speaker 1: good in short bursts. You're feeling so much better about
27:52
Speaker 1: your bullpen. You have one of the best closers in baseball.
27:55
Speaker 1: You have to get there to use him. And that's
27:57
Speaker 1: what all he said is the most important thing. Bridging
27:59
Speaker 1: to the back end of your relievers is the most
28:01
Speaker 1: important thing in these ballgames. And I think the Cardinals
28:05
Speaker 1: have a good plan for the next few weeks as
28:07
Speaker 1: to how to get there.
28:08
Speaker 2: And you know the other thing that's just so glaring,
28:12
Speaker 2: and I'm telling you something you already know. But they
28:14
Speaker 2: started off the season like their first five one run
28:17
Speaker 2: games they lost. Since then, they've had five one run
28:21
Speaker 2: games and they've won them all.
28:23
Speaker 3: Well, why, what's the number one reason? The dramatic change
28:27
Speaker 3: and the quality of the bullpen and that bridge to
28:29
Speaker 3: Ryan Hilstick, there's no doubt in my mind, that's what
28:31
Speaker 3: it is. Oh, there's other factors. Your offense has to
28:34
Speaker 3: score or do this, but a lot of them were
28:35
Speaker 3: just low scoring games and it was a battle of
28:39
Speaker 3: the bullpen type situation. And they have prevailed in five
28:43
Speaker 3: straight of those five straight of those one run games,
28:45
Speaker 3: and they've beaten some good teams in the process, you know.
28:48
Speaker 3: So the bullpen, gosh, the bullpen was like just about
28:53
Speaker 3: everything last year that had to do with their success,
28:57
Speaker 3: just about everything, the predominant factor.
29:01
Speaker 2: It was the predominant factor in why they were just
29:05
Speaker 2: squandering so many leads and so many games and not
29:08
Speaker 2: winning tie games. This year, it was a predominant factor.
29:11
Speaker 2: Now during this upturn, once again, it's the predominant factor,
29:16
Speaker 2: except it's positive the way it was in twenty twenty four,
29:18
Speaker 2: except instead of being negative as it was earlier this season.
29:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, both agree, And it's fascinating to see just how
29:27
Speaker 1: quickly things changed, because around two weeks ago, I think
29:30
Speaker 1: you and I were very much out on the bullpen
29:32
Speaker 1: and we were very much questioning the Cardinals hovering, you know,
29:35
Speaker 1: three or four games under five hundred for most of April.
29:37
Speaker 1: All of a sudden new life for the Saint Louis
29:40
Speaker 1: ball club. Now quickly before we wrap up here, they
29:43
Speaker 1: have a big test not to be the certified five killer.
29:46
Speaker 1: But the Cardinals are four and thirteen on the road.
29:48
Speaker 1: We know this. They have nine straight on the road
29:52
Speaker 1: starting on Friday, three in DC, three and Philly off day,
29:55
Speaker 1: and three in Kansas City. Bernie. One thing, what needs
29:59
Speaker 1: to go right for the Cardinals to turn their road
30:01
Speaker 1: rows around.
30:03
Speaker 2: I think they have the bullpen in place to do it. Okay,
30:06
Speaker 2: so that's already changed since they you know, since they
30:10
Speaker 2: started changing changing the roles and changing personnel. But the
30:16
Speaker 2: other thing, and I don't have the numbers in front
30:17
Speaker 2: of me now, I know the Cardinals bombed away in
30:20
Speaker 2: that double heetter sweep at Cincinnati. But the Cardinals offense
30:23
Speaker 2: has been really, really mediocre on the road, and it
30:26
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense to me. I mean, Bush Stadium is
30:29
Speaker 2: not exactly you know, the Great American ballpark. I mean,
30:31
Speaker 2: it favors pitchers. Yet the Cardinals have performed very well
30:35
Speaker 2: at home, even though the place is half empty most
30:37
Speaker 2: of the time. But on the road, it's just a
30:44
Speaker 2: huge it's a huge difference. And so if you one thing,
30:48
Speaker 2: people ask me, why are they so bad on the road,
30:50
Speaker 2: or it's like, you know, what do they have to
30:51
Speaker 2: do to turn around? Or you just asked that, but
30:54
Speaker 2: I phrased that wrong, and I apologize. It's it's that, well,
31:00
Speaker 2: they'll win more games on the road if they can
31:02
Speaker 2: score more runs on the road and hit for more
31:04
Speaker 2: power on the road. I mean, and I'm maybe simplifying,
31:07
Speaker 2: but listen, the starting pitching is in good shape, perfect
31:10
Speaker 2: noe is it in good shape? Yeah? The bullpens in
31:14
Speaker 2: much better shape. So of all the all the factors
31:17
Speaker 2: that led to their poor performance of the road at
31:19
Speaker 2: this point, okay, and you know, and keep in mind,
31:21
Speaker 2: they were what were they before that doubleheader two and
31:25
Speaker 2: twelve on the road?
31:26
Speaker 3: I think so.
31:28
Speaker 1: They won two and a Cincinnati two.
31:29
Speaker 2: Right, So the offense in those fourteen road games where
31:33
Speaker 2: they lost twelve, the offense was just awful. It's I mean,
31:36
Speaker 2: it's just like, I don't get this. Why are they
31:38
Speaker 2: hitting so bad on the road and they're they're really
31:40
Speaker 2: good at home? Eternal mystery.
31:43
Speaker 1: I'm with you. Hopefully the return of even von Herrera
31:45
Speaker 1: were whenever that is again not guaranteed. He'll be back
31:47
Speaker 1: for the National Series, where the Cardinals will keep their
31:49
Speaker 1: fingers crossed that he is. Hopefully that will help. We
31:52
Speaker 1: saw a better day from Lars Newbar. He's been going
31:54
Speaker 1: through it, but he did a nice job of keeping
31:56
Speaker 1: his composure at least working walks when you know the
31:58
Speaker 1: results offensively weren't there. Alec Burlison continues to swing a
32:01
Speaker 1: hot bat. We will see. Yeah, Bernie, this was a
32:05
Speaker 1: fun homestand I had a lot of laughs and I
32:07
Speaker 1: think Cardinals fans enjoyed. And five and one in six games,
32:11
Speaker 1: five straight, five hundred ball. We're in a good spot right.
32:15
Speaker 2: Now, seven out of nine. And you know, closing thought
32:18
Speaker 2: for me, just a little a little point on our
32:23
Speaker 2: Victor Scott conversation. Someone who's been in Saint Louis since
32:26
Speaker 2: the mid eighties and covered Whitey Herzog and all that,
32:30
Speaker 2: and I'm familiar with the splendor of whitey ball and
32:37
Speaker 2: the speed and the defense and the base running and
32:39
Speaker 2: everything else. I mean, it was a wonderfully entertaining and
32:41
Speaker 2: successful style of ball. But we in Saint Louis ten
32:45
Speaker 2: to kind of live in the past and just want
32:47
Speaker 2: to say, well, you know, Mike Methidi would drive me
32:49
Speaker 2: crazy at spring training every year because the media would
32:52
Speaker 2: ask because again everyone's like hanging on to this notion
32:56
Speaker 2: that you can still play whitey ball, and I would
32:58
Speaker 2: just sit there and go like this, you know, when
33:00
Speaker 2: the questions were being asked Amithid, he would say, oh, yeah,
33:03
Speaker 2: I big fan of white heros on baseball, and we
33:06
Speaker 2: can do that.
33:06
Speaker 3: We're going to try to do that.
33:08
Speaker 2: And it's like, my, you don't have the personnel to
33:12
Speaker 2: do that. What are you talking about? You know? But
33:14
Speaker 2: let me say this about Victor Scott. One message I've
33:19
Speaker 2: gotten over the last few days, whether it be on
33:21
Speaker 2: social media or friends or whatever, it's like, you know what,
33:23
Speaker 2: we all go overboard about whitey ball because they're never
33:26
Speaker 2: going to be able to do that again. Okay, but
33:30
Speaker 2: Victor Scott could have played and started and been a
33:33
Speaker 2: good player and an ideal match for the white heroson
33:37
Speaker 2: style of baseball. That's probably the best compliment you can give.
33:42
Speaker 3: I really mean that.
33:43
Speaker 1: I completely completely agree. When I watch him play, I
33:47
Speaker 1: think he's the perfect blend of old school and new
33:49
Speaker 1: school Cardinal because he does all that whitey ball stuff,
33:52
Speaker 1: like you say, but he has a little bit of flash,
33:54
Speaker 1: a little bit of personality, a little bit of swagger,
33:57
Speaker 1: and I just think that's really fun to watch. I
34:00
Speaker 1: think if you took a poll of Cardinals fans, at
34:02
Speaker 1: least half would say Victor Scott the second right now
34:04
Speaker 1: is if not their favorite player, their their favorite one
34:07
Speaker 1: to watch, and rightfully so, he's been great. So hopefully
34:11
Speaker 1: Victor carries on those good vibes. Hopefully the Cardinals carry
34:13
Speaker 1: on those good vibes. This podcast is a lot more
34:15
Speaker 1: fun when the Cardinals are winning. I will say that
34:18
Speaker 1: more stuffy coming up at the end of the week.
34:20
Speaker 1: I'll be on all three cities on that road trip.
34:22
Speaker 1: I haven't done a three city road trip in a while,
34:24
Speaker 1: but I love DC. I've never been affilly in Kansas
34:26
Speaker 1: City's easy. We're right across the state, so plenty of
34:28
Speaker 1: fun content coming from you or coming for you. From
34:31
Speaker 1: the Athletic, from Cardinal Territory, from Bernie, you know where
34:35
Speaker 1: to find us. We will talk to you soon. Thanks,
34:38
Speaker 1: as always for watching.
34:40
Speaker 2: By bye.