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SoWhoCaresAnyway E 49 Noticing the Spaces in Between · SoWhoCaresAnyway

• 0:04
  Welcome to So Who Cares Anyway?, a fortnightly podcast exploring stories that shape care, community, and the systems we live in.
• 0:12
  I'm Ruth Germaine, and in each episode I'm joined by my guests, people from behind clinical doors to the North York Moors, whose experiences open a window into how we care for one another.
• 0:25
  Together, we explore care through creativity, connection, and the strengths we already hold.
• 0:31
  Because care isn't small.
• Care isn't soft.
• 0:34
  Care shapes the world.
• 0:36
  So who cares anyway? It's time to talk about it.
• 0:42
  Hi, it's Ruth here, and before we get into the next episode with Will Nicholson from A Better Way, I just want to say I think this was a really lovely conversation.
• 0:51
  Will s- begins by talking about the spaces in between, the places where we don't quite fit into boxes, and how important those spaces are, and then he shares some of A Better Way's principles and behaviors.
• 1:02
  To be honest, as I listened, I thought these sounded a little bit big and aspirational, but when you get to the end and you hear the story about the boiled sweets, well, for me, that's when I realized it's the small things that really do count, and, um, they build the kind of power that Will's talking about.
• 1:18
  So hope you enjoy, and stay for a boiled sweet.
• 1:23
  Hi.
• 1:23
  I just wanna say hello this morning to Will, Will Nicholson, who's joining me today from A Better Way.
• 1:28
  And Will, we know each other and met each other through the Do With movement that we've both been, um, a part of.
• 1:36
  But you've come today to talk about A Better Way and what that's about.
• 1:39
  But let's start with a little bit more about you.
• 1:41
  So yeah, just say hello and introduce yourself would be lovely, please.
• 1:45
  Thanks, Ruth.
• Um, I'm- I'm Will, uh, one of the co-conveners of A Better Way.
• Um, it's a network of around 1,500 people all across the UK.
• Very similar to myself, uh, very passionate about how we can do things differently.
• If we can't keep going on as we are, how would a better way look like? How would it feel? Um, and when I found the network, it j- it just felt like a sense of connection to others.
• 2:16
  It felt like a bit like a, a home away from home.
• 2:19
  Um, so yeah, it's been lovely to connect with the network, and then through the network to connect with people interested in the Do With movement.
• 2:28
  But...
• And I'm gonna just start with a little bit more about you.
• So re- you've joined- obviously, you had this interest.
• 2:33
  You saw A Better Way, and you s- you've really given a nice and s- succinct piece there at the beginning to explain what that is about, um, just think about things differently, and we'll go into that a bit deeper later.
• But it'd be really nice to understand a little bit about more about you and who you are so that we can understand why it is that this really fitted with you.
• It's a great question.
• I'm- I have, um, mixed heritage, so I'm both Scottish and Chinese, and that's had a profound impact on my life.
• I've always occupied, I suppose, that space in between.
• Sometimes it's the best of both worlds.
• Sometimes it's not quite sure where you fit in.
• But it's always driven in me a curiosity to explore and find out more about others, to understand how things knit together, how they don't, and always find different ways to connect, build community, find ways in which we can do things together that we couldn't do on our own.
• So growing up mixed race has always I guess been preparing me or ever since I was born to find these different interesting spaces in between.
• 3:53
  Um, so that, that, that, I think is a little snapshot into who I am and why then connecting with places like A Better Way and Do Was are, are really special to me, but also I think so important in the world that we're in.
• Thank you, Will.
• And I'm really interested in that.
• 4:11
  You've talked about that bit of being in between.
• 4:14
  Um, so obviously, obviously to me listening to you, I think, ah, that must...
• I can see that you had that feeling of being in between because you weren't quite one thing or the other.
• Mm.
• Um, you had the best of both worlds, as you said, but sometimes not, not s- you know, not the best.
• 4:32
  You, you were aware of those areas and that, um, connection and intersexuality, if you like.
• How did those two things intercept and, and what does that mean? But that's branched into the rest of your thinking.
• Um, and you talked about preparing you really as you grew up to think about that curiosity of, well, where do things meet? What does it, what does it mean, that being in the middle? Yeah, I found that really interesting.
• I don't know if you want to talk about it a little bit more, 'cause I'm, I'm interested in that.
• I find the, the world that we're in is quite lineal or it's quite fixed, and it puts people into boxes or into camps.
• And I always was a bit of anomaly, always a bit of a problem when you don't fit in one camp or the other.
• Um, so that space in between comes about.
• Um, so I think in all my life I've- gravitated to the middle ground, but then also been really curious about reaching into the other parts.
• 5:38
  'Cause space is in between, and it's in between other things, so I've always been really interested in what those other parts of society are or what those other parts of, whether it's a system or...
• 5:50
  I don't know, it just came to me there that even when I played rugby, my role, my job, my, my, my position was scrum-half, which is the place in between the forwards and the backs.
• Um, so I've always in lots of different parts of life, whether it's convening networks or being a creative producer, like I said, being scrum-half, being mixed race in the family, it's been, throughout my life, really interesting to find ways to bring people together, but also to understand and respect and really value the differences that we have as well.
• Yeah.
• And, um, you spoke about those boxes and those camps and people not quite fitting.
• Mm-hmm.
• A- and it's true, there's lots of those, isn't there? But actually there are a lot, there's probably a lot more people that are in between, um, in various things, you know, whatever that might be, than there are that really neatly fit in that box.
• So, you know, I suppose sometimes there's the thing about either or in th- that camp, people trying to fit into the camps- Yeah and spending their time to do that, or stopping to...
• Because you could have just said, "Actually, I fit here.
• This is how I fit.
• I'm in th- these two boxes, and I just move across them as I need to."
• But instead, you became curious about that space in the middle, and thinking what that space meant, and how you could perhaps, I don't know, maybe it's a bridge between those two different camps or bringing, as you said, bringing those people together, convening people.
• So instead of seeing them as two separate things and just fitting into them as you needed to, you start to think, "Well, how can we bring those things together and perhaps create a, create a bigger or a broader understanding or pers- perspective that other people might begin to understand as well?" Would that be fair to say? Yeah, absolutely.
• And I think, I suppose where I'm at in my journey, and we'll come onto a better way as well as its journey as a network- Mm and the Do With movement, but I feel like the first 40-odd years of my life has been exactly as you've described, understanding the different- Boxes or labels or camps or different ways in which people have been, you know, either identify or, or have been identified as, and then looking at those connections and how we can find ways to bring people together, how we can understand, like you said, the, the, the bridges, the, tho- those connectors, um, and creating spaces for that connection to take place.
• Where I'm finding myself increasingly, and I think where we need to, or where I would love to get to a society, and I think this is what we're, we're yearning for at the moment, is almost a redefinition.
• So instead of setting ourselves up to have all these boxes which are kind of Ways in which we've decided to organize society in these different silos, and it's very much in service of a model of, um, construction, uh, in capitalism to build things, whether that's organizations, to build movements, to build, uh, companies, to build machines.
• 9:19
  It's been organized in very much a way of separating out different parts into different roles, and then to think about how we make something.
• Whereas what I'm quite interested in now is A- and then when you So it's when you set up those roles, you then create misfits, you create spaces in between, you push people into a role that isn't necessarily for them.
• 9:44
  I'm just really interested now in a way in which we can reorganize and rethink about our society in a, in a much more cohesive and joined-up way, which is saying, "Actually, we don't need to construct everything so that we all have to try and find a way to fit in," but what if we could approach society in a way that started with the whole first and then allowed us to organize from that side so that you don't ever not fit in? If that makes sense.
• Yeah.
• No, it makes, makes complete sense, to be fair, Will.
• And, um, I suppose some of it, and this is where it is one of those sort of conversations that can be quite difficult because people have got used to being in those- Yeah boxes or say that, "Well, this is the box," you know? Well, that's exactly how it is, so that can become awkward.
• But at the same time, what you're saying is other people that saying, "Well, I've been trying to fit in that box for years, and I wondered why I didn't fit" or, "I knew I didn't fit, and I knew why perhaps."
• 10:46
  But, um, yeah, so there's, there's a lot around there about how that is.
• 10:50
  So I think it's probably is right for us to move into a better way 'cause I think r- we can probably talk about it a little bit more, and obviously bring in Do With as, as appropriate as well.
• Um, and I will just say 'cause we're pr- we're not focusing on Do With so much at the moment, but for people who haven't listened to the podcast before or don't know what Do With is, it is a movement about doing things with people rather than for people.
• But that's just a brief explanation, and it, it might come up further as we come into it.
• But for now, let's, let's come to a better way and how you discovered that and, um, and what that's about as well, if that's okay, Will.
• 11:26
  When you start to learn more about yourself and what makes you tick and what interests you, you start to be attracted by or even attract people, organizations, and projects and places that are more in sync with the way in which you operate or you, you behave.
• 11:46
  And I started to discover my own interests in community and connection and relationships and power with rather than power over.
• Um, really interested, like we've just described, in how we can think about things differently, how we can't just keep going on as we are just because that's how we think it's always been done or, or just that's the way it's been set up.
• So I ended up, during COVID I think as a lot of people, pausing and stepping back and thinking, "Who else is out there and what, what other-" things are happening that, that I could connect with.
• 12:29
  And I came across a better way as I was, I think, searching the internet, talking to other people about like-minded places and spaces.
• 12:37
  And, and I came across in particular, if you go onto the Better Way website, it has a set of principles, eight principles, and a model of behaviors.
• 12:47
  Um, it's called the Better Way Beach Ball.
• So if you go onto betterway.network,
• you'll see, um, the Better Way Beach Ball, um, a set of behaviors that really, really were in tune with who I am.
• And the times that I've been happiest, the projects I've most enjoyed, the places I've most valued visiting, the people who I've most connected with, I suddenly realize exhibit a lot of these behaviors and have these eight principles firmly embedded in who they are But prevention is better than cure.
• Building on strengths is better than focusing on weaknesses.
• Relationships are better than transactions.
• Collaboration is better than competition.
• Mass participation is better than centralized power.
• Local is better than national.
• Principles are better than targets.
• And changing ourselves is better than demanding change of others.
• 14:04
  And that last one is particularly interesting, I think, to me personally, I think that's probably the one that sticks out the most, which is how I could work more on the way I do things and the projects I'm involved in, rather than expecting change from other people.
• And I've found that the more I can change the way I do things, I find that actually others, we, we start to move in sync with each other.
• So when I gravitated to Better Way, I was so pleased that- Hundreds and hundreds of people who came before me in the network, and I'm eternally grateful to the founders, Steve Weiler and Caroline Slocum, for setting up the network and creating the space for conversation where people said, "Look, if we can't keep going on as we are, well, what would a better way look like? What would it feel like?" And they captured those eight principles that I've just described through hundreds of conversations, and for me, captured it so succinctly and put it all on the website.
• 15:05
  And then I came along and went, "Oh, this is great.
• Thank you for all your hard work."
• Um, and through getting to know the network, I ended up then in the role of, uh, a, a co-convener of the network.
• 15:17
  But really, I didn't do any of the work as such.
• 15:20
  I just inherited a lot of really, really deep thinking and deep connecting about how things could be done differently.
• What I also love about A Better Way is, yep, those eight sets of principles, and we could probably argue the toss about some of the language and, you know, you might agree with six or seven of them, and maybe one or two don't quite resonate, and that's okay.
• It's not about prescribing these are the, the only eight principles.
• But broadly, for me anyway, they, they, they fit with, with the times that I've been happiest, um, like I said.
• But what I also love about A Better Way is the, the, the beach ball that I mentioned, the, the set of behaviors.
• So how is it that you can behave in a better way? And I'll just briefly state what they are.
• There's four, um, behaviors.
• The first one, which, you know, I love, which is putting relationships first.
• There's sharing and building power, listening to each other, and joining forces.
• And actually the one for me in all of that, I know Actually, for all of them, they al- they really resonate.
• But sharing and building power, and I think this is the one that is most interesting to me personally because I, I think was always taught in that power over model That sharing power meant giving it up.
• 16:51
  It meant a sense of loss.
• 16:53
  It meant So that made it very difficult to do with, to work collaboratively because, gosh, in order to work collaboratively with you, Ruth, I have to share, i.e.,
• give up what I've got in order for you to have something so that we can work together.
• But what was so lovely put, um, for me when I joined the network was that it's sharing and building power.
• So how you can share in order to have more power together, and that doing with or power with is so, so, I think, crucial to how we can, you know, change the way that a lot of our challenges we're experiencing in society can be taken forward.
• They're really interesting.
• I haven't I should have written those eight principles down before you came so I can refer to them easily.
• Well, but, um, all of them resonate.
• 17:48
  But what, what I'm thinking about there is you're talking about that sharing and building power, and I wonder if that comes from the fact that we live in a world of there's not In our minds, there's not enough.
• Uh, there's not enough work to go around.
• There's not enough, um, food or physical items to go around.
• We tend to think that everybody has to fight for what they need.
• You know, we grow up, we get a job, we earn, and then we make sure that we've got everything that we need, and then if we've got some spare, we might do something that we consider is good or something outside of our home, but we start there.
• And I, I use the home.
• 18:23
  It might be within our workplace as well, and I think we're the same with knowledge.
• So what came to my mind then, um, when I was working as a nurse, I can remember, um, I was working in a general practice, and there was another nurse there who was in a different role than myself.
• So she was doing more of the, um, the clinical sort of treatment rooms type work.
• And somebody new had joined, and she said to me, "Well, I shouldn't have to keep telling her because I, I had to learn for myself, so she'll have to do the same."
• And that's almost like, well, if I share this knowledge with her then I'm gonna lose a piece of myself, or I'm gonna lose something, and then she might be something else.
• 19:03
  So even down to knowledge, people start getting a little bit possessive about sharing that, um, because it does feels like a sense of loss.
• 19:13
  Because I've got here, I've created this person who I am.
• 19:17
  I'm now respected for it, and it's took me some time to do that because I could see that she had come through q- it'd been quite difficult for her to get there, so now this other person needed to do it in the same way that they had.
• Not because she wasn't She was a really lovely person.
• Yeah.
• 19:33
  But it's, it wasn't because she wasn't nice, but she'd, she'd fallen into this thing of thinking, "But this is mine, and I, if I, if I give it away, it won't mean anything anymore.
• People won't recognize the journey I've been through.
• So I can't just give it away because- Right I would've lost a sense of who I am as well."
• So the, it's bigger, um, and it's quite difficult actually.
• 19:55
  And so that's why I think it's really important when yous mentioned before as one of those eight principles that bit about, um, developing ourselves because others will follow.
• Because to go into her and say, "No, just tell her," didn't work.
• Y- you have to sort of start to, um, embody that yourself so that people go, "Oh, actually Ruth's telling people.
• That's okay."
• People still respect Ruth for who she is, but now they also build, Ruth's built something else and, and there's more connection there.
• 20:26
  But it, I think that sort of fits with it.
• And I know it's quite difficult, different because I'm sort of focusing very much on a, a clinical thing that's happened, but I think that still comes down to that crux of people recognizing who they are and how we tend to think about things as something that we own, right down to our- Mm-hmm our knowledge and our understanding.
• Yeah.
• I don't think it matters what sector or situation you are in or you describe.
• I think if you rewind the clock, say 300 years ago or so to the beginning of, uh, what I would describe as, I suppose in- industrialization and- A series of choices like Adam Smith's Division of Labor and, uh, that then led us to how we can grow, how we can build more of a very much, uh, a model of consumerism that said, "We deserve this.
• 21:30
  We can go out, we can build, we can do this by everyone having their roles, their set roles."
• And what fueled a lot of that is quite individualistic, quite reductionist behavior, so we became very specialist.
• Uh, but we were making a lot of these decisions for our individual gain.
• So when you were describing what you were describing there, I found it really interesting is because knowledge is from my knowledge, uh, in order to serve a model so that we can grow more or it, it...
• So it makes putting the principles of a better way and the behaviors really tough because we have been trained and educated from a very young age to think about the self, to think about ego, to think about how I need to do this in order for me to achieve this.
• So when it then comes to thinking about collaboration being better than competition, mass participation being better than centralized power, and so forth and so forth, it's really hard because we've actually been trained in the opposite.
• All through education, whether it's myself, I, I worked in the City of London for a long time as a chartered accountant.
• I know you're describing there as a n- uh, being a nurse, but it's the same in public sector.
• 22:58
  W- we've been brought up in a certain way of thinking, thinking this is the way it has to be.
• And now we are coming to a really interesting point, I think, in, in society in, in the things are changing now because we are struggling to continue to operate as a big mass of individuals, and we're yearning for something deeper, which is a, I think, a greater sense of connection and collaboration and community and wanting to do with.
• But it's really hard 'cause we've been trained not to do with.
• We've been trained to think about number one and then do with, which is re- those two things get you so far, but I think that's where we're at a tipping point now.
• 23:51
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• 24:01
  This way we can amplify the voice, share the stories further, and it will help to keep the podcast going.
• Now, back to the conversation.
• 24:11
  I think what would be really nice now is perhaps if you start to describe some of the things that Do-With do.
• I- if they do things, maybe it's things that you promote or...
• And I know there's lots of different things that are posted on LinkedIn through, you know- D- do you mean A Better Way? Sorry uh, I, I mean A Better Way.
• Beg your pardon, yes.
• Through A Better Way, so that we can start to actually picture that.
• And then, uh, and it can be on any one of the things, but...
• 24:33
  or maybe name a few, but then perhaps with one of them, it'd be really nice to sort of delve in a bit deeper to find out actually what's happened because of that and what's changed, and how is that feeling now, um, would be really interesting, yeah.
• 24:46
  Yeah.
• 24:46
  So at the end of 2025, we got together with, um, over 200 of the members of, of A Better Way.
• Like I mentioned, there's 1,500 altogether, but 200 actively took part in a in-person gathering as well as an online gathering, and we spoke to the network about what- it would like to focus on, uh, in terms of 2026, 2027.
• 25:15
  And we focused on three things.
• 25:17
  So one, which is very broad actually, is called changing the operating system.
• 25:22
  But within that, there's been a l- uh, to give that a little bit more context, there's a lot of discussions about how government, central government in particular, can work better with civil society.
• 25:37
  And when we describe changing the operating system, that relationship between government and civil society has been very much a transactional one in the past, quite hierarchical.
• I think it's really good people trying to do good things but find it extremely difficult.
• So what we are really interested in is how do you change the operating system so that we can find it easier to work together and combine forces rather than what the moment feels like quite a, almost like a bit of a parent-child relationship.
• 26:13
  So that, that's number one, is that, that changing the operating system, the relationship between government and civil society.
• And second area of interest is around race equity and racial justice.
• Um, and I think that's in particular the link to a lot of the, uh, recent, I'd say not just rise of the far right, but I think it's, it's a lot of narrative around immigration and division and separation in society.
• Um, so it's something that we wanted to do as a network was try and hold a non-judgmental space to meet people and discuss how we can me- move things forward, um, with a race equity lens on it And the third area, which is also an area that is of huge personal interest to me, is around neighborhood health and wellbeing.
• 27:04
  And I think, again, contextually, it's, uh, just a time in which communities, neighborhoods working in, living in the place in which we are has such an important role to play.
• Um, and it's already prevalent in a lot of strategies for, um, for, for a lot of the NHS and for other organizations.
• But I think we all know it deep down, if we can find ways to better connect with our friends, labors, other local people and businesses and so forth, that we would be in a better place.
• So those three areas are, are what A Better Way is focusing on, and we do that through holding a, a series of different events or, or, or meetings, sharing best practice in those areas, helping people to make connections to people they don't normally come into contact with, those unexpected encounters, um, which are so powerful.
• We also try to give people a chance to step away from the day-to-day To have a pause, to not come in, you know, if you've got 100 meetings in a week, try and come to A Better Way meeting free from your job title and from pressures to having to do something, and just try and create a space to first step back and then think, think differently.
• And I think the other bit of what we really find our members really value, I really value this, is that sense of being part of something bigger.
• 28:45
  So that, that, those are the three areas, and those are the things that we're, we're, we're working on right now.
• 28:50
  They're really good areas.
• And I can see why that neighborhood health one as well at the end, or that neighborhoods, is something that really fits with you.
• Because, of course, that probably fits right into that do with that we were talking about earlier on, and I keep muddling and saying it, bringing it in at the wrong time.
• But, um, yeah, it fits there.
• But I wonder if, um, and I think it was around the race, um, equity as well, and justice, was the particular comment that you put up on LinkedIn through A Better Way, um, that drew me into sort of speaking with you.
• But it doesn't have to be that one.
• I wonder if there's something that you can perhaps, um, tell us about that's happened through one of these events, or maybe one of the events, what happened there, and sort of give a bit of an outcome so people can think, see, "Ah, okay, so that, that's what happens, and that's what the result is."
• So it might not even be a big change, but something that people can really understand, sort of a story of something that's happened would be great, please.
• Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll talk about our storytelling project.
• Um, it initially started with a connection that was made maybe four or five years ago, or, or even longer, with, um, amazing person, Olivia Butterworth, who at the time was working in NHS England as a patient and public participation lead.
• She was a member of A Better Way, really connected to the, the principles and the behaviors.
• And myself and Steve Wyler, one of the founders of the network, w- we met with Olivia a few times, and we were saying, "Look- How can we find ways to bring together people in the NHS who are really curious, creative, want to do things differently, who are kind of inspired by the principles and behaviors of a better way, and are looking to sort of put things into practice? And so we, we started to run a series of connect, the connector events.
• No more of an agenda other than to create a space to invite people who are working in the NHS, who are interested in doing things differently, to connect with others.
• Like I said, connect with others, step out from the day-to-day, have those unexpected encounters, feel part of something bigger.
• And through all of those events, we then got a small piece of work from NHS England to work with a number of integrated care boards to Apply the same, almost connect the connectors at a very local level, so at their integrated care board level.
• 31:38
  So we then worked with, uh, around 10, I think, integrated care boards to almost create local connect the connector, um, spaces and places.
• Um, and then following that story through to its, its, I say its conclusion, it, it might still continue on from this, is that we realized that it's all great bringing people together, and I think people hugely value it, but how do you create a greater sense of connection? How do we actually do things differently? And we'd received a small commission from NHS England to develop a toolkit on building connections and, and working in place and partnerships.
• 32:25
  And when we talked to the integrated care board involvement and engagement leads, they overwhelmingly said to us, "Not another toolkit, please.
• You know, toolkits are, are very transactional, they're very prescriptive, they're, they're, they're great, but they...
• 32:42
  We have so many.
• 32:44
  What we need is to change the way in which we connect with each other and bring more of our, more of ourselves to the work that we do."
• And we often expect our patients and other partners to talk openly about the things that they found the hardest about their work and their experiences, and to really open up emotionally, but we never do that as professionals.
• So we went back to NHS England, uh, and we were very fortunate at this time to work with a wonderful organization called Co:Create and, and Danny Sherwood, who, who, who runs that.
• And we actually combined our different commissions to work with NHS England to...
• Which in, in itself was, I say, fairly innovative, which was like, "Look, actually if we work together on this, let's work with these ICB and engagement leads, involvement and engagement leads, to do a professional storytelling project for those leads to actually tell their stories about- The good, the bad, the ugly of doing engagement and involvement work.
• 33:56
  And that became, I say in inverted commas, our toolkit.
• 34:03
  Because what we now have is a really, I think, a fantastic inspiring collection of, of stories from professionals about doing work, which if you wanted a toolkit, it's fantastic.
• 34:16
  You can read it, and you can get a lot of inspiration about how you might do engagement and involvement work and doing with better in neighborhoods or in systems.
• But what you also have is a collective beginning of a movement of people who are expressing emotion and vulnerability and deeper human connection in a very material system.
• 34:42
  You've also got a, uh, a change in the power imbalance, where we constantly ask patients to tell their stories, but ourselves in professional roles don't necessarily do the same.
• So you're starting to do that sharing and building of power, creating that greater sense of connection and relationship.
• Because professionals are shedding some of the, the armor of professionalism and are now starting to talk about their work as people, which is really, really powerful.
• 35:17
  So that, that I hope is a good example of a better way in action, the broad connective, connect the connector space that then led to specific work.
• Um, and also, I suppose, innovation and trying to find ways to do things differently, really at source to build relationships, to find ways to listen to each other, to join forces, um, and to share and build power.
• Thank you, Will.
• That's fascinating.
• And I'm just gonna ask you another question to extend on that.
• And, um, so I might be putting you on the spot here of your memory and things.
• But is there a particular story that you remember or a, a person that came along to one of those events that actually had, I don't know, a light bulb moment or a moment when they said, "Ah, okay, so I'm doing this and, and this is what's happened.
• This is the difference that me telling this story is or through this story, this is what's happened.
• This is what it's done"? Yeah.
• So there's, there's maybe two that really stick out, but I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll start with the, the story of the boiled sweets, um, which is told by a fabulous, uh, um, ICB engagement involved lead called Colin Hurst.
• I think he's in West Yorkshire.
• But he talks about how, um, in a, a cancer unit, um- People going in for chemotherapy, um, obviously a very difficult time for people and their families.
• 36:47
  Um, but there used to be these boiled sweets that were in the room, uh, and, and, and people would go in, have their chemotherapy, have some sweets, which was really, really important for, for anyone having the treatment because it, it took the taste of the chemotherapy away.
• 37:07
  Uh, it was really, really powerful and horrible taste in people's mouths.
• And, and, uh, anyway, so Along came infection control and the audit and, you know, the quality, care quality, uh, side of things came in and said, "You can't have sweets in a, uh, in a waiting room.
• 37:30
  It's, it's a, it's a disease risk," and so forth.
• 37:32
  And so suddenly the sweets just disappeared.
• Actually, no one knew where the sweets had come from in the first place, but the sweets disappeared, and suddenly in that unit, the friends-and-family test, the level of complaints, the challenges that staff were experiencing just suddenly started to go through the roof, and no one could understand what had happened, until one day a man came back with his wife and said, "Oh, where have the sweets gone? Oh," and then he was like, "Oh, I'll..."
• 37:58
  And he went and bought some and put them back on the counter, and he said, "Oh, these, this is what made all the difference to my wife," who was going through this, this really, really difficult time.
• 38:06
  And then they said, "Sorry, sir, you can't put these here because they're, they're an infection risk."
• 38:11
  And so what it actually turned out from all the digging then, they were like, "Right, we have to get down to the bottom of this because you've got this something that's so powerful and important to patients, but also there's a really valid point around infection control and risk.
• But at the same time, it's now caused this huge issue in this, in this unit."
• Um, so they went away and realized that it's because the sweets were, weren't wrapped.
• They were just, um, bought out of a bag, so, you know, you put your hands in and, uh, a very simple solution, which was just individually wrapped boiled sweets could solve the whole thing, and they started to buy them again.
• 38:53
  And lo and behold, all the metrics of, I say, success or, or, or, of, of friends-and-family tests and so forth in that unit went back up again as, as, as the b- boiled sweets returned.
• 39:08
  Um, so I think that's...
• It's just a, a lovely, lovely story, um, that, that gets across, I think, so much about how engagement involvement work is much, much more than just, you know, surveying patients or getting a patient story.
• But the impact it gets professionals thinking about the other people involved in, in this, and also thinking creatively about solutions rather than going, "Computer says no."
• Yeah, that's fascinating.
• And what I found really interesting in that story, Will, was that when you just said as a little aside that actually nobody even knew where the sweets came from.
• Exactly.
• Um, a- and you already mentioned that bit about, um, the, the shedding the armor of professionalism.
• So somebody, whether it was a person receiving chemotherapy, and I always avoid the word patient, so a person- Yeah receiving chemotherapy, their relative, or a member of staff that just brought some sweets in, and then it slowly became a thing almost through that creativity, if you like, 'cause people are, "Oh, that's nice.
• I like that.
• Yeah, let's do that."
• And then suddenly the professional voice said, "No."
• 40:14
  Says no.
• 40:15
  So we don't know where it appeared from, and then it took somebody to come back in and just ask that simple question.
• 40:22
  And it's fascinating, isn't it, isn't it? That actually not having sweets just meant that that changed the whole dynamic enough- Yeah that people saw that on their friends and family test.
• 40:33
  So what, what was it like? How was your treatment? How was your care? All of those quite in-depth questions were changed by just not having the sweets that were there in the beginning.
• Well, not in the beginning, but that appeared there- Yeah at some point.
• And that can change so much.
• Um, which suggests that it's not just the act of having the sweets there which takes away that flavor.
• It's the fact of walking in and seeing the s- sweets, and understanding that somebody put them there, and that little bit extra care that went into things.
• I mean, we all think that, don't we? If you go and stay somewhere in a hotel and there's a few little sweets on the side- Yeah or, or something like that, we know that that means so much more.
• It makes it feel personal.
• Yeah.
• 41:18
  So- It's such a lovely story because, again- Yeah the whole initial work was about doing a toolkit about how to do better engagement and involvement with patients or, or people.
• And I think if you were to teach people about how to do better engagement and involvement, or how to do, do with or a better way in action, that story captures so much.
• Yeah.
• Just as a little prompt, and it gets you thinking without telling you.
• Go back to the nurse you mentioned earlier.
• Without that nurse having to tell the other nurse exactly what to do, it's a way of- Showing people what to do, but you can fill in enough of the, the blanks on your own to start, "Ah, now I can see how this all fits in.
• Hadn't thought about that.
• 42:11
  Hadn't..."
• 42:11
  You know.
• 42:12
  So I, I, I love...
• 42:13
  I, I actually love that story.
• 42:14
  Yeah, it's very powerful.
• 42:16
  And you said you had another story as well.
• 42:18
  Yeah.
• 42:18
  Um, when we did the collection, we used something called public narrative storytelling, which, um, was coined by someone called Marshall Ganz.
• 42:28
  It's really interesting in itself.
• Um, and the- to simplify it, it, it talks about the story of me, so the individual story, like we've just heard, the boiled sweets.
• Okay.
• 42:40
  It talks about the story of us, so in our instance, the 10 ICB engagement involvement leads telling a story bet- the, the 10 stories all tell together, and how you can think about the collective impact of the story that you're telling.
• 42:59
  And then the story of now, which is so, so important, the context in which we are telling these stories.
• So for the NHS right now, huge reorganization, big shift to neighborhood working, 10-year plan, um, lots of redundancy, lots of challenges, um, for staff who are expected to also do engagement involvement work.
• So when we told the stories, we asked the individual stories as think about themselves, think about your own story, really important, and what you wanna get across, but also think about when we put these 10, 10 stories together, alongside A Better Way and co-create in NHS England, we are telling a collective story.
• And also, we're telling it at a time of big, big change in society and in the NHS.
• So the f- the story, the other one I wanted to raise was, so Andrea Kemp, who's, uh, another en- en- engagement involvement lead b- based in Derbyshire, she took the storytelling initiative to work with her team to do a team-building exercise and getting to know each other better through sharing both personal and professional stories at a local level in Derbyshire at a time of really significant challenge.
• So she took what we were doing across the whole of NHS England, and she did a, a storytelling kind of initiative- a bit like doing with in a better way, to forge a greater sense of connection between herself and her team at a time of really significant change.
• 44:43
  So the story she told was how initially challenging it, it was for people to open up and say things and find a way to just write.
• But as people started to shed away some of those professional shackles, they started to connect with each other on a, I'd say, on a more human level, on a deeper emotional level, and go, "Wow," you know.
• Say, say Ruth, you, you told me something and I was like, "I didn't know that about you, Ruth.
• That's That makes a lot of sense now.
• 45:13
  Now I have a greater connection with you, so when the next time you might ask me to do something or help you out, it's a totally different kind of connection that we have in, in the workplace.
• 45:23
  So Andrea talk, talked through in her story how she created a culture of storytelling within her engagement involvement team, and then how that created a better working environment for them.
• 45:39
  But also, no doubts, uh, obviously we can't evidence this in, in, in right now, but how that then impacts on each of those people going out into their workplaces, and then how they're connecting with, with people and patients and so forth, um, with a, a greater sense of connection to their own team.
• 45:58
  So I love that story because it, it's not one that is about the patient so much, but actually how it's about how we can change that operating system I mentioned with a better way there.
• Thank you, Will.
• 46:13
  And, um, you said that we can't evidence that right now, but in, in some ways, what, um, and it was Andrea, wasn't it, that you said- Yes has done is she'd, she'd come to that national of seen it nationally- Yeah and she'd taken that to use it locally.
• So that's almost a proof of concept that if she was using that locally to those people that then came along to her event were, of course, going to take that off and use it either directly or just use some of the learning and that, um, being able to be open and express yourself, and as you talked about, losing those professional shackles to start to affect their work.
• 46:49
  So, so it sort of proved, because if it got down that far, then you would assume that those, that will carry on that trigger- Yeah and keep going.
• 46:58
  But what I like in, in those stories, if, is, um, if you think about what you spoke about earlier on about those principles and, um, the beach ball and about the behaviors, um, they all sound wonderful, but at the same time, there's a certain amount of, "Oh, so what does that mean? What do I do? How does that work?" And they could essentially sound like, "Oh, I need to do something really big here.
• I need to do something amazing."
• But actually, you've told some stories here that are about just those small changes, those small things.
• You know, the boiled sweet example, and even this one, we were doing this bigger, and now somebody's done it locally, and we're assuming that that's, you know We can, we can, we can assume that some of that is trickling down further.
• That actually sometimes it's just about just doing things.
• However small they might seem, they still actually fit with those big, aspirational, um, principles and behaviors that you spoke about at the beginning.
• Um- Yeah, I suppose the last thing I'll say there is that, like, doing with or putting a better way into action can feel, like you said, hugely daunting or, God, where do I begin? And these Storytelling is a great way, really simple way of- Changing yourself is better than demanding change of others, and it's a great way of just putting Do Was and A Better Way into action.
• 48:22
  Really, really simple.
• 48:23
  So on that note, Will, I'm going to ask you, 'cause we're sort of towards the end of our time, and it sort of feels like it could be a final message.
• 48:30
  But is there a final message, a call to action, or something that you want to say for people listening today? Ooh, that's a, that's a, that's a big one at the end.
• Without going off into a big one.
• I'm just gonna finish with a book that I've just been listening to called Active Hope by Joanna Macy.
• Mm-hmm.
• 48:50
  And in that book, Joanna describes very similarly to A Better Way that we can't keep going on as we are, and there's a sort of great unraveling of a lot of the things that we've become very used to in society, whether it's the, the health system, education system, so forth.
• 49:07
  We are finding things really, really challenging.
• There's a, a moment now where there seems to be a big doubling down on the way we've done things, but really what, what is very exciting in this is that there is a, is a great awakening that's taking place.
• That with things like Do With how we met, Ruth, through that, through A Better Way, there's countless other wonderful organizations that I've come across in this process of connecting, where people are starting to go, "Actually, there is a different way of doing things."
• And there is that greater sense of wanting to connect and be together and so forth.
• So I think there's a lot of active hope right now.
• 49:53
  You know, it may feel like this is almost the hardest time possible in some ways, the, the, the night is darkest just before the dawn.
• Um, and I feel very hopeful because I have great gratitude for the work that people are putting in and for this podcast and the space you've created.
• I acknowledge there's a lot of pain and suffering and challenge for people, but I think we are now looking things in a different lens.
• We are now starting to do things differently.
• And I think the last bit is, which is the going forth.
• Let's just, just have a go at doing it.
• Doing with, it's not thinking about how it, how we do it.
• It's, it's actually let's, let's have a go at doing it.
• We've described some really simple examples of, of how you can do that today.
• So I think just take courage to know that you're not alone, and, you know, just have a go at it.
• Thank you, Will.
• That was a l- really lovely w- way to end, and thank you so much for joining me today.
• It's- No problem at all I've really enjoyed it.
• Thanks, Ruth.
• Take care now.
• Thank you.
• Bye.
• 51:00
  I hope today's conversation gave you something to think about if it did, please share it with someone ripples matter you can also follow the show so you don't miss future episodes and if you have reflections or ideas then please leave a rating or to support my work head over to my link tree which you can find in the show notes but for now stay caring, stay connected, stay curious thanks for listening Oh, wow.
• 51:28
  I really enjoyed that conversation with Will.
• 51:30
  I hope you did too and what I'm taking away is that gaps between the boxes aren't really gaps at all.
• 51:36
  They're places where we can listen, where we can connect and we ca- where we can do things differently and just be really creative, let things happen So as I'm gonna go out today, and I invite you to do the same, I'm gonna notice the boxes that I'm placed in or that I've placed myself in really and start to think what sits outside of those.
• So call it a box, call it a camp, whatever fits for you, but let's have a look, look at those spaces in between and see what they're really inviting us to understand