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Beside Every Calling | Episode 24: The Barnabas Chair — Never Underestimate the Sidekick · Beside Every Calling

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is born beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hi friends, and welcome to this episode of Beside Every Calling.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Debbie Daniels.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Joe Barber, and I'm super excited today to have my Sam and I's pastor when we are in town on our podcast with us.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's David Goodwin.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we are just so glad you're here.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself before we get into the all the stuff we're gonna talk about?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I will also say this.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sometimes I joke that Sam and Joel are my worst attenders.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um we are we are totally.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: But so dearly loved.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they're always traveling.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's why.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hopefully they're good tithers, David.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully they're good titers.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't actually look at that part.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So um my treasure could tell you.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh, but yeah, my name's David Goodwin.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I pastor Patascala Church of the Nazarene, which is a small town in Ohio.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh uh I am married to Megan, uh, which is probably most appropriate to share on this uh this podcast.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: But uh we have two kids, a four-year-old named Rosa and a seven-year-old named Eliza.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we've been in ministry for about 13 years.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh started out in Kansas City as a youth pastor, and actually Sam uh took the risk and hired me.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's how I got my start in ministry uh while I was attending uh Nazarene Theological Seminary in Kansas City.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then um then a little over two years ago, uh while Sam was district superintendent at South Central Ohio District, uh, for the little bit that he was, uh I uh he reached out about a church in Potascala, Ohio, which is just outside Columbus, Ohio.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh so just followed through those doors and um felt the Lord leading us there, and we love every bit of it.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was it was so exciting when Potascala was looking.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: I remember those days, and uh I think you reached out to Sam to say, you know, I think the Lord might be stretching me a little bit, not you know, just all that kind of stuff.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the Lord just put it all together beautifully.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: It was great.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, he did.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was great.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let me just say we are your worst attenders.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I do, I will say that.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, no, no, no, it's so true.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's true for anyone in leadership, yeah.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty much, yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's what it is.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we were able to attend a couple Sundays ago, and it was just wonderful.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And uh of course, uh if anybody's listening, David Goodwin is an unbelievable uh communicator, preacher, just just incredible.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so we were sitting there, and he at that time he was in the middle of a sermon series called Sidekicks, uh, which was great.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that day, um, he preached about Barnabas and him being a sidekick.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And before I go into how that just really affected me and being talking about being a spouse of someone in ministry, would you just give us like maybe the 30,000-foot view uh of your sermon that day, maybe hit the high spots for so we all can kind of be on the same page?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so in when giving the sermon, I honestly was not thinking about ministering spouses at all when talking about Barnabas.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I love that that it just connected and hit for you.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's my hope in the sidekick series, because it's hard for us to relate to the Moses's, the Elijah's, the Paul's, um, but to the Barnabases or maybe some of the other unsung kind of heroes of scripture, uh, as we dive into their source, we can relate a lot.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Barnabas, uh, he has uh kind of the main theme and point of his life, you could say, is that um his primary uh impact on the world was not necessarily the ministry he himself did or the accomplishments that he had, but it was primarily the investment he had in other people's lives.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um that was the whole point of that sermon and really almost the whole series, which is that uh the primary impact of your life and my life, um it most likely is gonna be the investment that you have in someone else's life and the impact that they end up making.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so that applies to so many facets, whether it's as ministry spouse or um, you know, uh even uh pastoring, being a friend, being a parent, all the above.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so, anyways, Barnabas, uh, he's my favorite of the sidekicks.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, actually, almost of all scripture, like if I had a top favorite, is probably Barnabas.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I compare him to Samwise Gamge of Lord of the Rings, which if you don't know anything about that, that's totally fine.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he's my favorite character in that story movie.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, uh, I just love Barnabas.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So a little bit about Barnabas that I dove into in the sermon.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: He uh he has uh kind of a stretch from Acts 4 to Acts 15 where he pops up in different places.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: It begins in Acts 4, which is probably like one year after Jesus' uh um death, resurrection, and ascension.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the church is like one year old and uh he's introduced.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh his actual name is Joseph, he's a Levite from Cyprus.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so his real name isn't Barnabas, but it says there as he's introduced that uh he um uh he's given the nickname by the apostles Barnabas, which means son of encouragement.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So they saw something in Barnabas uh that was like, man, this guy is just he has a gift of encouragement.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's constantly bringing other people, coming alongside others, and it's just like about other people.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's what someone who would get a nickname like Barnabas, son of encouragement.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So they see the apostles see this in him, give give him that nickname.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's almost as if Barnabas like totally lives into that.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like you know that, like sometimes when someone calls something out in you, which is maybe there's a seed of it there, but you then you start really like, oh, I I am this?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the apostles did that for Barnabas, and you see the way Barnabas lives into this.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the next time he shows up is Acts 9.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's after the dramatic Saul to Paul conversion on the road of Damascus.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he spent Saul spends some time um, you know, going from terrorist of Christians to now being a follower of Jesus and teaching.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, then he Saul goes to Jerusalem to try and meet up with the apostles and disciples, where it's that's like the you know, that's Mecca.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, before Mecca, but like that that's the seedbed of it all, right?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So he goes there, and the the disciples, apostles don't trust him, they're afraid of him, they think it's a trap.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: But Barnabas is the one who stands in the gap, who comes alongside, and because he has credibility and reputation with the apostles, he says, Hey, this guy's legit.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: He explains the story, and he he brings Saul into this inner circle.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Saul ministers there, and then the story kind of drops off, and then Acts 11, he shows up again, Barnabas, um, because in Antioch, a little further north, crazy stuff is happening because uh all these um Gentiles, uh non-Jewish people start uh you know uh believing in Jesus and wanting to be a part of this, uh following Jesus, the Jewish Messiah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the church really doesn't know what to do, like, because the spirit is moving in ways they don't expect, they can't contain the spirit's movement and what he's doing in people's hearts, and they're like, what do we do with this?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so the Jerusalem church is like, hey, let's send Barnabas, Mr.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Encouragement, let's send him to like encourage them.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So Barnabas goes up, he starts ministering in Antioch, and he looks around and says, Hey, there's someone else who could really be effective here.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: So he goes to Tarsus.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows what Saul slash Paul is doing at that time, but he's in Tarsus, and Barnabas gets him and says, Hey, you can do significant ministry here in Antioch.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: So he kind of gets Saul in on like the groundwork of ministry to the Gentiles.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like Barnabas is the one who introduces Saul not only to the apostles, but to ministry with Gentiles.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And um then, years later, as after they're serving there, the Antioch Church sends Barnabas and Saul on their first missionary journey.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really Barnabas is the senior leader.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime he's listed in scripture up to this point, it's always Barnabas and Saul.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Barnabas and Saul.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Barnabas is mentioned first, but it's on this missionary journey that it's switched to where it becomes on that journey Saul and Barnabas.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Saul, or later, Paul and Barnabas, Paul and Barnabas.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's as if, like on this missionary journey, Barnabas recognizes what what like gifts that God has given Paul and kind of steps back and is like, okay, you take the lead.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then from then on, it's Paul and Barnabas, Paul and Barnabas.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: So um then uh Paul and Barnabas, they have a big thing at the Jerusalem Council.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm trying to be quick.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, you're doing good.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing great.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm taking notes like I'm in church.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's awesome.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so the they go to the Jerusalem Council, which was basically the church deciding do Gentiles need to be Jewish to follow Jesus?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have to follow all the Jewish laws?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do they have to be circumcised?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because a group of a faction in the church said, Yes, you do.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they were throwing everyone off in Antioch, who are all these Gentile Christians.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so Barnabas, he's it switches in this council where Barnabas is starts to be mentioned first again because he had he's got credibility with the apostles.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And Barnabas then shares all that God is doing among the Gentiles.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: He stands in the gap like he did for Saul.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: He stands in the gap for this whole group of Gentiles.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh then at the end of that chapter in chapter 15, it's the last time we hear of Barnabas, uh, and this is kind of the end of his story as we know it.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they're Barnabas and Paul are getting ready to go on their second missionary journey.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And Barnabas wants to take this guy named John Mark with them.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: He was a helper with them on the first missionary journey, but then he flaked out and deserted them.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe it got too tough.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: We don't really know what happens, but he left Barnabas and Paul.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: John Mark did.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but then in the second journey, Barnabas is like, hey, let's take him again.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's give him a second chance, sort of thing.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And Paul's like, I ain't got time for that.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's big stuff happening.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: We can't take him, he's flaky.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so they have this sharp disagreement.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Paul ends up leaving and goes on this journey with Silas.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Barnabas, though, takes John Mark and they sail to Cyprus, which was the exact location that John Mark originally deserted them.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so then we don't hear about Barnabas again.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um but here's here's the and I'll wrap up, I promise.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is like the worship band's coming back up, like we're wrapping up.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's this that um Barnabas's primary impact is not necessarily just what he did, but it's the people he invested in.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, namely what we see in scripture.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's probably many others, but what we see is in Saul who becomes Paul, and in John Mark.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're pretty confident, scholars are pretty confident that John Mark is the very one who writes the gospel of Mark later on.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and without Barnabas uh looking past John Mark's past and seeing the potential that John Mark has in Christ, uh that that he uh encourages him, stands like comes alongside him, which that's what the word encouragement means, like in the Greek.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from this word um uh paraclesis, which is actually uh a name that the Holy Spirit is given in John chapter 14, that Jesus calls him the paraclete, the comforter, the encourager, the one that that word literally means to come along with side, to call alongside someone.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what Barnabas does in John Mark's life, and he later goes on to write the Gospel of Mark, which is probably the first gospel that's written that Matthew and Luke look back at Mark's Gospel and they write their gospels.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if you're into statistics, 36% of the synoptic uh of the New Testament are the Synoptic Gospels.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you could say Barnabas from his investment in John Mark, just saying, Hey, I'm gonna stick with you, like we get 36% of the New Testament.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then Paul, who of course we know writes a lot of the New Testament, 25% of the New Testament roughly.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, does that happen?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Does he get into ministry?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do we even know about Paul if Barnabas doesn't continually call, like, see looking past his past and seeing the potential Paul has in Christ?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um like the thing is Barnabas does what God does for all of us.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he's he looks past our past, sees the potential we have in Christ, and comes alongside us and brings us into you know his fullness.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that's what Barnabas does.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I think that's what we're called to do for people uh is to come alongside, to be that encourager.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about us being, you know, having main character energy, as the kids say, uh, but like we're sidekicks, like we're the Barnabases who can come alongside others.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, that's the sermon.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for letting me relive that for a little bit.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: That was great.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, thank you so much.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: That caught Debbie up, caught all of our listeners up.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And let me just say, I sat under that, and I know, I know Pastor David was not thinking of a pastor's spouse in any way when he was the Lord was giving him all of this to preach.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: But let me just throw a couple things out that really uh that really just resonated with me thinking about the life of a pastor's spouse as you were preaching about Barnabas.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, his name was Joseph, first of all, and his friend said, Oh, no, no, no, you're not Joseph, you're Barnabas, because how he encouraged and he came alongside.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just that act of being alongside, we live there with anyone that is, you know, like Megan lives with you because you have the call on your life.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: I live with Sam and Debbie lives with Scott.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's just we are always alongside our people that have the call.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like, oh my goodness, this is this is coming real to me, or this feels like, oh my goodness.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then, let alone all the scripture that was written from Paul and and Mark, and let me just say I'm sure Paul and Mark on both of those journeys and in his interactions being alongside both of them, had days where they came back to their little cottage or fell over wherever they were resting and going, you know what?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so tired.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna, I'm just gonna go dig a ditch.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't, I can't do this anymore.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: We've all had those moments where it's like, okay, this is too much pressure, too much everything.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to like quit basically.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I can see that around the fire and Barnabas saying, now hold on.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's just pray about that.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get a good night's sleep, let's get some food, let's let's start praying, and stands in the gap, as you said, you know, for him for with prayer, as we do as spouses for our ones that are have the call and continues to encourage them and continues to that.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just like you can tell my I'm just kind of over I can't quit talking about it, Debbie.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: But you know what's popping out at me is Barnabas was, I mean, originally he had a different name, but he's the encourager.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: So a spouse that isn't not the encourager, you can also do a whole lot of wrong.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's exactly right.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: A pastor needs the encourager.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: The the key to Barnabas was his personality and how he could keep encouraging the one speaking the word.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I can see if you don't take that emphasis of being the encourager to someone that has the call.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like as soon as they come home and say dig a ditch, it's like, yep, I'm packing today, we're out of here, you know, kind of thing.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Not to say I haven't said that.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, I'm just saying, you know, that you have to be that encourager.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I do I do remember Sam preaching about Barnabas, and I asked him about this the other day.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I forget what sermon it was in.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: But he said, and in his studies, he found out that um Barnabas was one of the first to sell property, uh, I don't know how much, but to give the funds to the disciples for ministry.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and I was like, okay, now hold on.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: So what that meant to me as I'm thinking about all this in this perspective was all of the spouses that are out there working and providing income for maybe the whole life of their ministry, or maybe they really like to work, or maybe they have to because of different chapters in their world.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've all been there.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: We are we are fulfilling that role of bringing in the funds for the minister, for the minister, basically, and the ministry.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like so Barnabas again just kind of checks another box off in my in my life of saying, Oh, he sold property so they could even be taken care of.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the money went for.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they all needed food or a new robe or whatever, you know, or something, or maybe they just needed some some money for a ministry.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just like, okay, so not only is he an encourager, the support, the come alongside, he sells property for ministry.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: He helps he stand for the majority of our New Testament.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just say he is the sidekick.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: He is the one that nobody, he doesn't have any names on any books in the New Testament, but yet the people that wrote them had him right beside them.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just I know I'm rambling on, I'm gonna stop here in just a second, but I'm just saying, you know, all of the ministers that are out there, female and male, the the one standing beside them if in their marriage, it it matters more than they know because of encouragement, because of that standing in the gap for prayer, uh, because of just being there, because of being all in for it.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: It it's a it's a game changer, and their name may not ever be uttered, you know, or never get a thank you card or never be recognized.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to go on, you know, just whatever.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: But yet there they are.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I just the importance of that is like okay, we as a church or we as people, we need to start encouraging our barnabuses that are out there.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Think of, think of if the Church of the Nazarene that we're a part of, let's just say that, and say, okay, our goal is in five to seven years be known to support the Barnabases out there, which are our all of our spouses.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Think of what our pastors could be like, you know, if they they hopefully they know they're loved, but yet now they know they're seen.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just like, oh, I have to stop.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna start running my office aisles.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: But that's how it hit me.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just say that.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, looking back, I had to look back at my notes on the message to be prepared for this because you know, you move on to the next sermon.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Yeah, sure.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, yeah.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so confession there.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: But as I was looking through it, I was then thinking through it the the perspective of uh Pastor Spouse and um and I mean my wife Megan and thinking about the role like the barnabas-like role she plays in my life and ministry, and something that uh just was brought home to me.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Megan, Megan will never want to really have a mic and be standing up and talking and sharing, teaching.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: She does not desire that in any way.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe some do, but she's like, no, thank you.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: You do that.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh so many times people will be like, wow, that's such a great point, Pastor David, about something I share on a Sunday, or like, oh, so insightful.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yeah, I just got that from Megan.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like, like there's so much of like Um uh I was just thinking about her role in my life as for sure encouragement, but also just like uh I think about how many times Paul wrote something in one of the letters about like especially like character formation, which he does quite a bit.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like he I think he learned that from Barnabas.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like he is like Barnabas just is such a well-rounded, just like you just get the sense of like he's formed by Christ in so many ways.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that rubs off on Paul, I think, and you know, he writes I I just think uh it just seems like that's uh very likely.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I realize how much Megan does that for me, just like things she says or just who she is, like so much gets inspired on what I teach or just who I am with other people.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, they might think it's coming, you know, it's coming from my lips, but like, oh, Megan taught me that.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just am the one who gets to share that.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: So my guess is Barnabas was happy being Barnabas.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm like your wife Megan, I have no desire, like when I say yes to do a women's retreat, it takes a lot of prayer because I'm like, I don't want to stand in front of people.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I love being in the background.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: But early on, Scott would even go over his sermons ahead of time when he was a young pastor.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, not so much now, but I still hear all of his book chapters and other things.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it's nice to find a character in the Bible that you really can't know.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: I want to, my son is a young preacher too, and he just taught us recently on a Sunday to look for Easter eggs hidden in the Old Testament and New Testament.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, wait, I gotta go find these on Barnabas.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm sure there are some.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I just think, wow, that that really is a beautiful space.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and a character that I'm like, oh, I want to know more about him now.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I and my guess is he was totally happy being Barnabas.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you get that sense that he he's never like just even to be able to shift from senior leader to like, all right, like you got this, go Paul.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh you get the sense of that's that's we're his comfort level, but that's that's his gifting and calling, and he just fits right into that.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, no, totally.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think he's comfortable with it for sure.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh I I again I think to Megan, like she there's so much um about uh just her life and her development as she grows in Christ, like I learned so much from her.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh and she has so much impact on people through me.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm realizing this more and more, to be honest, like even in this conversation before this interview, I was like, hey Megan, I'm gonna do this interview thing.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: If I haven't said this before, thank you so much.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm indebted to you, and I know this, but I know this more.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: So And I will tell you, Megan doesn't ask for that, but she 100% loves when you just say thank you.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: And she most likely needs it from no one but you.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was just thinking as we're talking about how Megan has uh influence through people, two people through you.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Debbie and I have have lived that life and had those sermon, you know, preached to us before it ever got to the pulpit, kind of thing.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: We've done that a million times.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and he'll just say, What do you think of that?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: How'd that land?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or does that make sense?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that kind of thing, or or the spirit will move us to say, you know, have you thought of this?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, or whatever.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is what and and half the time I don't know if he's gonna add it or not, and sometimes until the sermon, and then it, you know, it's there.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just saying there's an importance of that role that I think the church needs to recognize.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I know, listen, I know I'm standing, I s I sit in this uh barnabase chair along with everybody else, and it's not it's not necessarily for um attention or anything like that, but it's just to s to be seen and understood, and maybe it's a teaching moment too for our spouses that are listening to say, Yes, you know, I know you're a nurse over here and he's pastoring over here, but your job as a nurse bringing in those funds are incredibly important.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and your life with him is incredibly important uh for all of these things that we're learning in scripture about Barnabas because the sidekick, the sidekick encouraged the New Testament.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: That how how how do we s how do we not say thank you to Barnabas for and recognizing him, you know, just as not as a plaque, not as doesn't need his name on a a a book of the Bible, and neither do we as you know people that sit in that place in that space.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: But just like Debbie said, when you get the word thank you from not only your spouse, but even I just want to say thank you to all the spouses out there that are in this.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I call it the Barnabas chair.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why that keeps coming off my mouth, but it just out of my mouth, but it just does.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we are living in a space that is probably way more influential and way more important for the reach of others, for the gospel to be going out, for the kingdom of God to be moved down the road more than we know.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's why I think it's really important.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: I had a friend once who was a little older than me and said, you know, you need to marry well.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's like, well, I never that was just she would just always say that to everybody.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Just marry well, marry well.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, right, that's all I did.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: I all I only married for love and cuteness, you know, or whatever.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, but you grow together in ministry and you try to figure it out.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I was young and dumb when we got first got married.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I admit to all of that.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know what ministry was or how, but 36 years later, I'm now going, okay, the people behind us, the people that are coming behind us, we need to make sure they are not only loved, but seen in these roles and help them to know you are in an important space, not only for God, but for the church.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you are you make a difference.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing better than you know, but it's just, I just I I it's a something that resonates deeply within me.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know how you can tell that because I won't stop talking, but it's just like, okay, okay, Barnabas chair people, we let's the Lord bless you, you know, and let the church bless you and thank you for all of that, just even for the little things like you're already noticing in Megan as your spouse, uh, you know, and the things that just come natural.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: It it just matters, it just matters.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think it it highlights though, like it we just in our culture, society, humanity in general, uh, we're so infatuated with the people with the microphone, the people who have their name, their name is known.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um but in God's economy, this is really clear in scripture, like one of the clearest themes.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: In God's economy, it like God literally doesn't care.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like does not it like does not see the like God is not looking with like fan-filled eyes at anyone who is famous or known or uh in the spotlight.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, even in the scripture, we have we know Shifram Pua, but we don't know Pharaoh's name, right?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of my favorite, like we know.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I did those as two of my sidekicks.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: They are I love them, they're like my heroes because I always think you think you need to know the lead pharaoh, but he's just another pharaoh, he's just another president.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: But Shifram Pua, they changed everything.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's so good.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yep, yep.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so, and so that's it.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think I don't think God looks at Paul um because of his accomplishments and achievements um differently than Barnabas's investment in him.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: I I really don't think like, and even Paul has some recognition to it of you know the body of Christ, like, you know, you might be a hand, you might be a mouth, you might be an ear, but like yeah, it like even the more seemingly special parts, like God doesn't God values all of them.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so yeah, I think the like we do as a church, uh, for the sake of ministry spouses, but for the sake of just the health of the church, need to highlight the barnabuses, um, because it's it's not the people with the microphone that uh are really the people who do ministry, it's the collective, it's all of us.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we highlight the the big names over the barnabases or the other sidekicks, like we uh we're not living into who we're called to be as the church.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Pastor David, I have a question, and I have no idea, but I now I have a whole list of things on Barnabas I need to look up.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: What else do we find other books, maybe not even in the Bible, but we know more about Barnabas?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how did he die?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Did he work with more people?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Did he have a where what's his background?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Did he come from a prestigious family?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Curious.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So so there's the most of it is speculation, to be honest, on background of Barnabas.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but some things we can clue together.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one is that he he did come from uh a family of wealth, uh, or or most likely, um, he because he was able to sell a field that he owned after um when there was a need in the church for ministry, as Jill talked about.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he uh he was from Cyprus, uh which kind of clues into, but he was also a Levite.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: It clues into he kind of had this dual role.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like he lived in two worlds.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: He was a person of two cultures.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he knew how to navigate in Roman, Gentile, Greek culture, uh, and obviously Jewish culture, which really set him up to be an effective minister to these Gentile Christians because he knew how to uh navigate both worlds.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: He has family connections with like pretty prominent Jerusalem church leaders.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh his uh sister uh is uh like led a house church basically or hosted a house church in Jerusalem, a really prominent one that Peter goes to uh after he gets uh freed from prison.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he pops up a little bit, but like there's a lot we don't know, like in terms of his death.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's some or was he married, had children?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: Do we know any of that?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we don't we don't know any of that.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's kind of mystery man, other than the little clues um that you've sprinkled throughout.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which is maybe again speaks to like that's Barnabas.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like we like he's he's we don't know a lot about him other than the impact and investment he had in other people.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's how we know Barnabas um is his who he invested in.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: Angela even makes me think of I know Barnabas for you is definitely the ministry spouse, but I'm thinking of all the people who allow the church to function, like all the Barnabases taking the calls, the janitors leaning every night.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: You can't have church without people cleaning it, right?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you can't have church without people setting up the communion.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: You can't, and they do it so pleasantly, sweetly.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: These people, so we need to make sure we're thanking all those layers of people who make church happen, especially for the non-believer to get in and feel safe and loved.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: And just uh, I'm in love with him now, too.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, Pastor David, for that.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, David, thank you so much for your time and for coming on and just kind of regurgitating all that again for our listeners and for Debbie and everything, because I was just so moved by that.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I just we'll see what the Lord does with it.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: But uh thank you for all your ministry and especially Megan's ministry as well.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: She's just precious, and um, we're thankful for both of you, and we're thankful that you're our pastors and uh we get to come every once in a while uh there.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but thank you very much.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate your time.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, thank you for what you guys do.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh this last Tuesday we were on a road trip back from Kansas City to Ohio, and uh we we binge to listen to your podcast.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I love it.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's really good.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was really helpful for Megan, uh helpful for me, actually.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think pastors should listen to this as well.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it grows awareness that we need.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Pastor David, thank you so much, and thank you, listeners, for listening.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: And again, like Pastor David said, share it with a pastor too.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but especially if there's a barnabas in your life, will you just stop right now, forward it, text it to someone that you're like, this person needs to be encouraged today?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because to all of you Barnabases listening, thank you, thank you, thank you.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: The church has started and will end with the Barnabases, totally.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm excited as I'm gonna keep studying Barnabas now.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you will too.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you, listeners, for listening to this episode of Beside Every Calling.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's your sign.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.