Latest / The Curve / RTC101: How to talk about your salary (without making it weird), with Julia Glum.

Transcript

RTC101: How to talk about your salary (without making it weird), with Julia Glum. · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curve, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
0:05
to be better with your money.
0:07
And the wise words of Amy Schumer were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
0:11
I don't really get the saying.
0:14
It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good.
0:17
You know, I'm like, still not ready to do it.
0:19
Are you on the script?
0:21
It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring as, but it totally doesn't
0:26
need to be.
0:27
OK, OK, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
0:31
OK, the vegetables are just good for you.
0:33
It's the brownie recipe.
0:35
OK, we got there, we got there.
0:36
OK, OK, well, you've really got a finance brain.
0:39
Yeah, one of us has to.
0:41
This is a joke.
0:41
OK, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager.
0:45
Well, I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could.
0:48
And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
0:51
It's so not the joke, Vick.
0:54
OK, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
0:56
Because together, we really can raise the curve.
1:01
So this guest we're about to speak to has a very interesting last name.
1:06
She, when we interviewed her, she actually said she's like, now don't let my last name
1:10
fool you.
1:12
Her last name is Glum.
1:13
She's Julia Glum, but she has anything but Glum.
1:16
She was amazing to talk to and she's actually, she's the news editor at money.com.
1:23
And we came across her.
1:25
She repurposed one of her articles on a platform that we were obsessed with,
1:29
DM into the founder of that.
1:31
Emma Bates, she's amazing.
1:32
And so she repurposed an article onto DM and we saw it and we were like,
1:36
we need to speak to her.
1:39
So this article, which she wrote originally was talking all about
1:43
salaries, the importance of talking about your salary,
1:46
how it can help each other blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:48
And I just read it and I forwarded it to Vick.
1:51
And she was like, I know, I get these newsletters, but I was just like,
1:55
we've got to get her on.
1:56
So we've tracked her down.
1:58
She not only was hilarious in terms of how she writes and communicates personal
2:03
finance online, but actually just speaking to her, we were like, God, you're funny.
2:08
And I think that my favorite part about this whole conversation was just like
2:12
getting practical tips on how to broach conversations with friends and family
2:17
when it comes to awkward money conversations.
2:19
Yeah, because it's all, we always hear about, we need to talk about money,
2:22
we need to talk about money, but it is so uncomfortable for a lot of people.
2:25
And so I think my biggest takeaway from this talk was yes, let you say it was
2:28
getting practical tips and also how to respond when people, when your friends,
2:33
or your colleagues ask you what you earn and making it a bit more normal.
2:37
So the more we can talk about money and talk about salaries, the better.
2:42
And there was also a little activity in this podcast that will leave you with.
2:46
So we hope you enjoyed the episode.
2:48
And I hope you enjoy the episode and we're just passing the microphone back
2:54
and forward because we're stuck in a hot car because we forgot to record the
2:57
intro of a goddess and a homie across the high.
3:03
I'm doing the price rates.
3:04
Thank you.
3:06
I don't know my mother.
3:06
I've got my mother.
3:09
I'm sorry.
3:12
Okay, Julia, firstly, thank you for putting words out there into the universe
3:16
that you know, sometimes you come across, it might be a video or even a meme or a
3:21
tweet and you feel it in your bones.
3:24
I was like, this is so well written.
3:27
So we need to get her on the podcast.
3:29
We need to get our whole team and I was like,
3:31
I sent her a guest book at Airbnb and like, we've got to get Julia on the
3:36
so firstly, thank you so much for your time.
3:37
We're really stoked to talk to you today.
3:39
Yeah, absolutely.
3:40
Thank you for having me and please forward all of your compliments to my boss.
3:44
And tell him that he should give me a race.
3:46
Thank you.
3:47
Sure, what are you going for?
3:48
Like, how much more are we looking like 10, 20 grand?
3:51
Yeah, yeah, I could, I could take like a hundred K.
3:53
Okay, sure.
3:54
Yeah, cool.
3:55
We're going to look at us.
3:56
We are women and we're already talking about money.
3:58
We are easing it.
3:59
And we're not even, we're not even two minutes into the podcast.
4:01
This is great.
4:02
This is going to be a good one.
4:03
This is going to be a good one.
4:05
So Julia, what I was wondering if you felt comfortable with a lot of
4:10
audience may not have come across your article, the idea of celery,
4:15
discrepancies and ways to bring up the, you know, differences in what you
4:19
earned to your friends.
4:19
Like that's kind of a conversation that we have had before on podcasts,
4:24
but also on our socials and our EDMs and blogs.
4:27
But the way that you wrote it was so brilliant.
4:29
And I wondered if you felt comfortable reading that out for our audience
4:33
for those who wouldn't have read it.
4:35
Yeah, absolutely.
4:36
You guys ready?
4:37
Ready.
4:38
Okay.
4:39
I like to think I talk with my girlfriends about everything.
4:41
What I thought of the sheet pan, Yokey recipe I made last week, which of
4:45
us could realistically get on Raya, not me, whether Nicholas Galatine can
4:49
play off playing Hayes and the idea of you movie, et cetera.
4:53
But honestly, I stumble whenever money gets brought up.
4:56
I've been a personal finance reporter for almost six years now.
4:59
And it's still awkward to talk about celery.
5:02
A few years ago, I interviewed Elaine Swann, a lifestyle and etiquette
5:05
expert who founded the Swann School of Protocol about this exact topic.
5:10
According to Swann, the rules of decorum have historically dictated that people
5:14
refrain from talking about celery because it can make others feel uncomfortable.
5:19
The entire concept of etiquette is built around putting other people at ease.
5:23
So salary talk goes directly against that.
5:26
If I earned more than my girlfriend, for instance, she might feel jealous of me
5:29
or she might start assuming all pay for dinner without realizing there are
5:33
major differences in our financial responsibilities, so on said.
5:37
My friend might even think I'm acting tacky.
5:39
We're not supposed to talk about how much money we earn or how much money we
5:42
spend on clothes or rent or a haircut, right?
5:46
However, younger generations have grown up sharing every detail of themselves
5:50
online, and that's a habit that crosses over to their in real life behavior.
5:54
In fact, a LinkedIn survey from last year found that 46% of Jen's ears are
5:59
willing to share their pay information with close friends compared to 45% of
6:03
millennials, 34% of Jen exers, and just 22% of baby boomers.
6:09
Now, there are legit reasons to take the salary talk out of the shadows,
6:12
especially in the workplace.
6:14
Not only is sharing your pay with co-workers fully legal in the United States,
6:18
it's protected under our National Labor Relations Act, but having the
6:21
information out there can also help close wage gaps.
6:24
Salary transparency can foster a better and more trusting relationship
6:28
between employers and employees.
6:30
And on a less formal level, talking about salary can help my friends realize
6:34
that they are underpaid and make moves to correct it.
6:37
I took this question about feeling weird about talking about money with my
6:40
friends to my group chat.
6:42
I texted my three best grout gal pals to get their thoughts.
6:45
One replied, quote, I'm pretty open about it generally,
6:48
but also I'm less concerned about my salary than other people are.
6:52
That makes sense because we work in media and it's not exactly a lucrative field.
6:56
Another responded, quote, I don't really mind it,
6:59
especially when I know someone is trying to figure out where they stand.
7:02
And the third said, I think it's complicated, but it's good to talk about.
7:06
As you can tell, it's certainly not natural to talk about earnings with girlfriends.
7:10
Even for me, but I do try to remember that it's not weird unless I make it weird.
7:14
I tend to rely on a tip that Swan provided.
7:17
Whenever I do bring up my pay, I try to do it politely and in context.
7:22
For example, when I get a raise and I want to celebrate,
7:24
that's a good opportunity to talk about money.
7:27
Another great time to talk about salary is maybe when my friends are in negotiations for a new job.
7:31
Sharing my salary could help them have an edge.
7:35
Now, not to get on a soapbox, but I do try to remind myself that when it comes to pay,
7:39
women are at a disadvantage to begin with.
7:41
Even now, American women earn an average of $0.82 for every dollar that a man does.
7:46
It's important to talk about salaries so that we can continue working for equal pay.
7:50
And one tiny way for me to contribute to that movement is by talking more about my salary.
7:54
At the end of the day, I'm just talking with my friends and we're all rooting for each other to succeed.
7:59
I'll leave y'all with this.
8:00
If we can discuss our piercings that never quite healed correctly,
8:03
brainstorm the best caption to use for an Instagram carousel,
8:06
and debate which Sarah-Dane Maa series is the snowiest,
8:09
we can certainly talk about our paychecks.
8:13
So good.
8:14
Love it, so much.
8:16
Incredible piece.
8:17
That was amazing.
8:18
I was like, in a trance.
8:20
You talk about money in a way that's fun and funny,
8:24
and it humanizes it, which I love.
8:26
Is that always the way that you've written about finances, personal finances, etc?
8:31
That is how I try to approach it, yes.
8:33
I think that personal finance in general is so tricky and so intimate,
8:39
that it's really easy to avoid it as a topic,
8:46
and it's also easy to, I think, run into condescending advice.
8:49
Like the internet is full of money advice,
8:53
but I find so much of it to almost be degrading.
8:57
Like, oh, how do you not already know this?
8:58
How do you not already have a high old savings account with an online bank?
9:01
How do you not already have your 401k match maxed out?
9:05
And so to me, the best way to kind of correct that course,
9:08
or to make content that I put it into the world,
9:11
is to take like a collegial approach.
9:13
Like, hey, I didn't have a savings account until I was 24 either.
9:17
Like, no problem.
9:19
We're going to figure it out together.
9:20
You don't know how to invest.
9:21
NBD, like, let's figure it out.
9:23
And so that is at least the way that I like to approach my own content.
9:28
And I also find that a lot of advice out there is so general and so wish-washy,
9:34
and it's like, OK, give me practical tips.
9:36
Tell me how to do it.
9:37
Like, handhold me so that I actually do it,
9:40
rather than just say, you should save a large amount.
9:44
Or you should invest for the long term.
9:46
It's like, OK, what is long term?
9:47
What is a large amount?
9:48
What are we going to, you know, like, give me specifics.
9:50
So annoying.
9:51
I do think it's very challenging because a lot of personal finance
9:55
advice can't be specific, right?
9:57
Because every single person's situation is different.
10:01
Every single person, you know, was brought up in a slightly different way,
10:04
lives in a slightly different place, has a slightly different income,
10:07
has slightly different goals.
10:08
So I do empathize with the blogs out there that aren't giving you the step-by-step,
10:14
like, regimented advice.
10:16
But I do think that there are some general rules of thumb
10:18
that we could do a better job communicating.
10:21
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
10:22
And I think also the gap between the finance industry and the everyday person.
10:27
I think that's the real problem because even the idea of saying long term
10:32
for Vic is so obvious, you know?
10:34
And it just meant nothing to me.
10:35
And it's not language I ever use in my normal daily chats.
10:39
I'm not like, oh, yeah, I'm doing this for the long term.
10:42
Like, when do you ever hear that?
10:43
Yeah.
10:44
And so I think that there's also this issue with like,
10:47
it's not so much that people aren't trying to be helpful.
10:50
It's that for so long these conversations have been within the finance industry, particularly.
10:56
And so to kind of bridge that gap between the finance bros of the world.
11:02
And maybe who I don't have a huge amount of finance experience,
11:05
but small the teacher in the Steinwerk,
11:07
you need the people like you.
11:08
Let's laugh about things that we can relate to that are,
11:14
I don't know, just speaking in a way that's humanizing and making it fun.
11:18
I was going back to kind of the article.
11:21
I think when we started the curve, we didn't,
11:25
we started talking about money.
11:26
I don't think we realized the kind of worms that we'd opened, I think.
11:28
And we didn't realize how systemic the kind of the gender pay gap was for women,
11:33
how impactful is over their lifetime.
11:36
And the whole purpose of that article is about salary transparency.
11:40
So can you just help me understand why is salary transparency so important when it comes to
11:47
to the gender pay gap and closing the gender pay gap?
11:49
Yeah, so that's a big question.
11:51
And I hesitate to talk about it in quite such academic terms.
11:55
But I can tell you, you know, anecdotally,
11:58
when I know what my co-workers make, it helps me then negotiate my paycheck.
12:04
You know, right now, I don't know how it works,
12:07
where you guys are, but we're in the middle of reviews season, right?
12:10
And so they'll be telling you what your raise is,
12:12
or this is the time where you try to move up the totem pole.
12:15
If you have a staff job or a lot of people just looking at their new
12:17
your finances and trying to figure things out,
12:19
if I am able to say I know that the male co-worker,
12:23
who does the same job that I do and doesn't have more qualifications than me,
12:27
makes more money than me,
12:30
that's like information that I can use.
12:33
And it becomes very difficult, I think, for an employer to justify paying different salaries
12:40
for the same experience.
12:41
And if I didn't have that information,
12:43
if I was just going into these sorts of conversations with management blind,
12:47
it would be a lot more difficult for me to advocate for myself,
12:51
so the more proof, the better.
12:52
And I also find with that, with people who are at other companies, right?
12:57
It helps me know what the industry standard is,
13:00
it helps me know that I am well paid,
13:02
which is something that I'm thinking about all the time,
13:04
and I'm thinking about if I'm going to stay at my job,
13:06
or if I'm going to leave my job.
13:07
It helps me know which companies are supporting their employees
13:11
for when I am ready to make that leap.
13:13
I just think that kind of taking this talk out of the shadows is so important
13:18
because knowledge actually is power in the sense.
13:21
And knowledge is power, and that power is like actual dollars and cents.
13:25
Okay, so for people listening who are like,
13:27
I get it, and I want to take part in this conversation,
13:30
but every time I try, it's so uncomfortable,
13:32
or like you said in your article,
13:34
the difference between how GNZ, millennials,
13:38
in terms of the different generations,
13:40
you know, some feel more comfortable about these conversations
13:42
than others.
13:44
What kinds of easy go to, or like,
13:47
advice or thoughts do you have on that
13:49
to help people ease into a conversation that feels really prickly?
13:53
Yes, that's a great question.
13:54
So I think I would have a couple of recommendations,
13:56
and I did take some of these recommendations
13:58
when I was doing some research from Lizzie Post,
14:00
who is in the Emily Post Institute family.
14:03
They have written etiquette books for like 100 years.
14:06
So full disclosure, some of this advice is from her,
14:08
but some of the things that really resonated with me
14:11
is recognizing, number one, that this is a private topic.
14:14
So it needs, it's a something that needs to be talked about in private.
14:17
Like, let's maybe not talk about salary when we're at a house party.
14:21
If you're feeling uncomfortable,
14:22
the other person is also feeling uncomfortable.
14:24
If you're in the crowd at a concert,
14:26
and you have to shout that you're making 30K to the friend next to you,
14:29
and also that guy over there who just filled his gin and gonic on that girl,
14:32
is also going to hear, like,
14:33
that is a high pressure situation,
14:35
and you don't need to add pressure
14:37
by talking about something that is really intimate.
14:39
So I would say, choose the right time and place to talk about money.
14:43
I would also say, acknowledge that it's weird.
14:46
Acknowledge that it doesn't feel supernatural.
14:50
I would say you can use a phrase like,
14:54
I understand if you're not comfortable sharing,
14:56
but, or if you don't want to talk about this,
14:59
that's totally okay.
15:01
But, like, give the other person an out,
15:03
right up front, and they'll let you know
15:05
if they don't want to talk about it by taking it.
15:07
I would also say, number three,
15:08
it's kind of like a reciprocal situation, right?
15:11
Like, I think it would be weird if I asked my girlfriend what her salary was,
15:15
and I didn't offer it my own salary.
15:17
That is kind of an uneven footing,
15:19
and that doesn't feel good for anybody.
15:21
So I would say, you can start maybe after you give them that out,
15:26
or maybe before you offer up a piece of information yourself,
15:29
and kind of let things unfold naturally from there.
15:32
And then, number four, I would just say,
15:34
it needs to be contextual, you know?
15:37
It needs to not be out of the blue like,
15:40
oh, Julia is always bragging about how big her 401K is.
15:43
It needs to, kind of like I said, my article,
15:46
be part of the conversation, be relevant.
15:48
Like, we can talk about salary when one of us gets a raise.
15:52
We can talk about salary when we're thinking about changing jobs.
15:55
We can talk about salary or earnings or our savings and spending goals
15:59
when maybe we're talking about doing a group trip next year,
16:02
and I don't really feel comfortable with that,
16:03
because I want to buy a house.
16:05
I think it's mostly just about context
16:07
to put in the other person at ease,
16:09
offering up your own stories,
16:11
and generally just, I think, approaching it in a respectful way,
16:14
which is how I would help that I'm talking to my friends anyway.
16:16
I would hope that I'm being respectful.
16:18
I have been in a situation where my friend got a raise,
16:21
and she, we were at a dinner party,
16:24
and she was like, oh, how's work going?
16:26
She said, oh, great, I got a raise.
16:28
And there was probably about six of us standing around.
16:30
And I was like, oh, my God, amazing.
16:32
And everyone's like, yeah, yeah, amazing, amazing.
16:34
And I just know if I had then said,
16:37
oh, how much?
16:38
Yeah, it would have been all eyes on me being like,
16:41
how do you?
16:42
How do you ask that?
16:43
But like you said, it would have been the setting.
16:46
It would have been in front of a whole of people.
16:48
She would have thought uncomfortable.
16:49
But yeah, maybe that's the point where you take it aside.
16:52
You're like, oh, my God, congratulations.
16:54
I don't know.
16:55
And then you have the conversation.
16:56
But for later at coffee, when it's just the two of you,
16:59
you're one on one, and you're like,
17:01
I'm so happy for you.
17:02
Like now you went up to supervisor level.
17:05
And then I think you can kind of play with the framing, right?
17:07
Maybe don't say how much was your raise.
17:10
Let me have all the information I would love to know.
17:12
Like maybe you say, you know, did your title come with any reward?
17:19
Or I hope they're paying you more for that.
17:21
Sounds like you're going to have a lot more responsibility.
17:23
If they don't take the bait, I don't know if you need to force it.
17:26
Yeah.
17:26
What about afterwards when you do disclose your salaries?
17:30
You have disclosed yours, say it's $80,000.
17:33
They've disclosed theirs, and it's $400,000.
17:36
You know, how do you then move forward?
17:38
Because that's going to be uncomfortable for both of you.
17:41
How do you then move on from that?
17:43
And be like, OK, cool.
17:44
Sweet.
17:45
So you're so much rich in me.
17:46
Yeah.
17:48
Yeah.
17:49
I think delicately is the answer.
17:51
And I think it depends on the nature of the relationship
17:54
that you have with your friend.
17:56
You know, I think about my own girlfriends
17:59
and yes, I know the salaries they make.
18:02
You know, we talk about all the time.
18:03
I don't know if it's because I make them talk about it,
18:05
because of my job, or if it's just something that comes up pretty often.
18:09
But yes, some of them make more money than me.
18:11
I mean, I have a friend who is an engineer.
18:13
Of course, he should make more money than me.
18:14
I do words like he makes buildings.
18:17
Those are two totally different jobs.
18:19
I think you kind of have to feel it out with your friend
18:23
and decide on a case-by-case basis.
18:25
You know, I would also say that your friend
18:28
who makes $400,000 to your $80,000,
18:31
they might have different goals than you
18:33
and they might have a different lifestyle.
18:35
And they might have things happening in their life
18:36
that you don't necessarily know about,
18:38
no matter how close you are.
18:39
You know, they might make 400K,
18:42
but they also might have insane student loan debt.
18:45
Like, they might not have the actual income that you do
18:49
because they are having to pay these bills.
18:51
They might have a medical situation.
18:53
They might be sending money home to their family.
18:55
You know, they might be terrible with money.
18:57
Well, terribly unhappy.
18:59
There's a lot of different things that are going on.
19:03
So I think it might feel awkward at first,
19:06
but I would just urge maybe some understanding
19:08
that maybe you don't have the whole picture
19:11
and also does it really matter
19:13
in the context of your friendship.
19:15
To me, if my friend tells me she's making so much more than me,
19:18
am I jealous?
19:19
Absolutely.
19:20
But are we still able to do the things
19:22
that I like to do together?
19:24
Yes.
19:24
And if I suggest things that are less expensive
19:27
and she wants to do them with me, that's great, right?
19:30
I think there's got to be understanding of both sides.
19:32
And you were framed for poor
19:34
and you were earning different salaries,
19:36
you know, just because you know
19:37
that shouldn't change the relationship, definitely.
19:39
And I would hope that my friend who now knows
19:41
that I make so, so, so much less than her
19:43
would also take that into account on her side, right?
19:45
So she's not going to ask me to go to a $2,000 dinner
19:49
because she knows what I make.
19:50
So last night I was having a conversation with my parents
19:53
because I just got home from a dinner with two friends
19:57
and I had had two glasses of champagne.
19:59
We all had food and then they had two bottles of rosé.
20:03
So they probably spent about 180 on wine
20:06
and I spent like 28.
20:08
And as soon as it came to paying for the bill,
20:11
they, the first thing they said was like,
20:14
we'll pay for our wine.
20:15
You know, like they offered it up.
20:16
It wasn't an awkward thing.
20:17
I wasn't like, oh God, you know, there was nothing weird about us.
20:20
Like, okay, amazing.
20:21
Thanks so much.
20:22
And we can split the food and then we asked the waiter
20:24
and we were like, you know, is it fine to do this?
20:26
And he was like, sure.
20:27
Anyway, I got home and my parents,
20:29
I was saying this to my parents and they were like,
20:31
oh gosh, it's amazing that you, you know,
20:34
your friends did that and that they are like open to it
20:36
because we get stung all the time.
20:38
Because my dad does not drink much.
20:40
He has maybe like a beer or two.
20:41
But he goes out for these dinners with 12 people
20:45
and they're all having Bollinger champagne.
20:47
And then they end up splitting the bill.
20:49
But you know, they come home and they're like, oh gosh,
20:51
like that was really expensive and it didn't need to be.
20:54
And we didn't, we shouldn't have really had to subsidize
20:57
everyone else's drinks.
20:58
But the conversation of bringing it up was so much more
21:01
uncomfortable.
21:02
We sat at the stairs when I got home and talked about this
21:04
for like 40 minutes and they were like, oh, good.
21:07
Okay, that's quite inspiring.
21:08
Thank you.
21:09
And I was like, wow, you know,
21:10
it's become such a conversation amongst our generation.
21:13
How can, you know, because for them,
21:15
I think there's this expectation.
21:17
The old you get that you just, it's fine.
21:19
It's $100 here or there.
21:21
But it's not fine for a lot of people.
21:23
And maybe it's just lacking a bit of awareness.
21:25
But how can someone who's maybe never brought it up before,
21:29
whether they're at their average,
21:31
whether they're older, approach something like that
21:34
without feeling ashamed or less than
21:38
or any of the awkward things that come along
21:41
with those kinds of conversations?
21:43
I think it's practice makes perfect.
21:45
I think you just have to dive in, you know.
21:48
And, you know, maybe for your parents or maybe for somebody
21:50
who's new at this and has done it in the past
21:53
and doesn't want to do it again,
21:54
pick up that part of the bill even though they didn't participate.
21:57
Maybe you let it happen one more time.
21:59
And then later on, not at dinner,
22:01
not as the waiter is holding the little thing
22:03
where you have to like tap on this thing for not at that point.
22:06
But at some point where it is calmer and quieter and more intimate,
22:11
maybe you say, hey, I noticed, you know,
22:12
last time this is how we split the bill,
22:14
I would love if we could talk about going forward,
22:17
maybe doing it a different way.
22:18
Don't come on too strong.
22:20
Have it be kind of a vague thing that you put out there
22:23
and then see how they react.
22:24
The thing that I have to remind myself
22:26
that I really do have a hard time with
22:28
is that these people are my friends.
22:31
Like the people that I'm having these conversations with
22:33
and that I'm worrying about having these conversations with
22:36
are my friends.
22:37
I talk to them all day long on G-Chat.
22:39
I Instagram DM them pictures of Joe Jonas all day long.
22:42
Like, they are probably in the same headspace that I'm in.
22:48
Like if they're worried, if I'm worried, they're worried.
22:50
And they don't want me to be uncomfortable,
22:52
just as much as I don't want them to be uncomfortable.
22:54
And so it's really easy for like my neurotic brain
22:57
to kind of send itself into a tizzy.
22:59
But I do try to come back to the fact
23:02
that I have a relationship with these people.
23:04
They know that I'm not being stingy.
23:06
They know that if I'm asking to split the bill a different way,
23:09
if there's a reason behind it.
23:10
And I hope that they respect me.
23:12
And I hope that your parents' friends
23:14
or whoever is in the situation would also respect them.
23:16
It's kind of like if you're on the receiving end of that conversation,
23:21
you know it's right.
23:22
You know someone else shouldn't be paying for your wine.
23:25
So it's almost, you might get a bit uncomfortable
23:29
or feel a bit weird, but then you probably go away
23:31
and sit with them and be like, yeah, well, that's kind of right.
23:33
I had another situation happen not that long ago,
23:37
whereas I'm also probably going to have to send a check
23:39
if this is okay to share on the board.
23:40
I'll start doing it.
23:42
Don't say names, don't say names.
23:43
No, I kind of have to.
23:44
I mean, it was, so my parents are separated.
23:47
It was one set of parents.
23:48
Anyway, we do this segment called The Big Share.
23:51
And we have people in our community send in blog posts
23:54
about things that they've experienced
23:56
within the financial space, whether it's inheriting a huge amount of debt,
24:00
being 30 and still broke, like all sorts of different things.
24:02
And it's really, really amazing and cool to share those.
24:05
It's a chance for people to write and also a chance
24:08
that other people to read different situations.
24:10
Anyway, one of the ones that came in was about
24:13
how this woman inherited, she was 23
24:15
and she inherited so much debt that basically,
24:17
by the time she'd paid it off, I mean,
24:19
she could have bought a house of the amount of debt
24:21
she inherited in London, it was so much.
24:23
And it got me that one of the main takeaways from that
24:27
was you need to talk to your parents about money.
24:30
Like, you need to have these conversations with your parents
24:32
to know like, what's their financial situation,
24:35
what's their retirement, AKA 20-year holiday looking like,
24:38
are they in debt that you're going to inherit?
24:40
What, you know, and just understanding that
24:41
so that even though it's uncomfortable,
24:44
when they're not around, you're very aware
24:47
of what kind of situation you're walking into.
24:49
So I brought the supper dinner one time,
24:51
not very long ago, didn't go very well.
24:54
I don't think I had a lot of tact
24:55
with it, I was sort of trying to be like,
24:57
how are you looking for, you know, retirement?
25:00
When you're looking to retire,
25:02
are you able to, are you having to work at the moment?
25:05
Do you have any debt?
25:06
Like, I was really sort of asking some pretty awkward questions.
25:09
And in terms of like inheritance,
25:11
I was like, is there very clear stuff
25:13
in writing around what was given,
25:15
verse, what is a debt?
25:17
And anyway, I went a little bit down a rabbit hole.
25:19
Thinking I was doing a good thing,
25:21
and I really backfired.
25:23
It was like an awkward conversation,
25:24
didn't go down well.
25:25
My sister was like, what the fuck was that?
25:27
I was like, oh no, oh no.
25:29
I was just trying to think.
25:31
I was trying to help.
25:33
I was just, and I said to my sister after I was like,
25:35
well no, because I read this article and this girl at all this debt.
25:38
You know, I was just wanting to sort of like protect us and be aware.
25:40
And how can we kind of use the framework
25:43
that you spoke about with friends
25:45
to copy and paste that potentially
25:47
in a different dynamic?
25:48
Where it's still really awkward to talk about money.
25:51
But yeah, like it's as being respectful of one party
25:54
while also getting the information you need.
25:56
I think it goes back to context, right?
25:58
Like you just said in that example,
26:00
and I'm sure that you summarized it for me.
26:02
So I know that there's more to the story
26:04
than what you just said.
26:05
But you mentioned that you brought it up at dinner
26:07
and it was awkward.
26:08
And then later you talked with your sister
26:10
and you were like, well, I read this article
26:11
and that's what made me worried, right?
26:13
I would say, did you discuss that with your parents?
26:15
Did you open with, hey, I read this article
26:18
and it really freaked me out?
26:19
And I would love for us to talk about this
26:22
if you guys feel comfortable about it.
26:23
No, that would have been a little bit of heart.
26:26
See, I think like, I think if you just
26:27
just like flunged.
26:28
Are you guys ready for a time?
26:29
Are you dying?
26:30
I'm a funny dude.
26:31
Shit.
26:32
You were dead.
26:33
No, so I would say, you know, just like we talked about
26:35
with friends, like finding a private time to talk about it.
26:37
Maybe do it one-on-one, do it in context
26:39
of getting a razor, reading something that freaked you out.
26:42
That's totally fine.
26:43
And just again, say something about yourself.
26:46
I'm worried about this.
26:48
I read an article and it totally made me feel uneasy.
26:51
Or my salary is X.
26:53
Do you feel like we could talk about Y?
26:56
And then kind of use that as a transition.
26:59
And listen, I am not an expert at this.
27:01
I am drawing on my own experiences
27:03
and what experts have told me is it's not a science.
27:07
But I do think it's something that we should all
27:09
really try and get in the habit of doing
27:10
because I do think it benefits us.
27:12
It'll benefit you when the day does come
27:14
that you're gonna have to deal with the state plans.
27:16
It will be helpful for you to have had these conversations
27:19
as weird as they are now.
27:20
Yes.
27:21
No, I had a situation.
27:22
So I have been fortunate enough to have a career in finance,
27:26
which, you know, for generally means that,
27:29
you know, then you do it.
27:30
Isn't talking you're so awkward.
27:32
Yeah, I know.
27:33
I know.
27:35
It feels strange.
27:36
I know.
27:37
Okay.
27:38
So I was fortunate to have a large salary.
27:40
We got great bonuses, but I was conscious that
27:43
I knew that I was earning a lot more than a lot of my friends.
27:46
And I remember one night when we were younger
27:48
and a bunch of us were jumping out of a taxi, a taxi van.
27:52
And there's always that awkward moment of like,
27:54
who's gonna put, you know, someone's like,
27:55
who's gonna pay for it?
27:56
And someone's like, I don't have cash on it.
27:57
Anyway, and one of my friends, you know,
28:00
then there's that awkward person that just kind of,
28:02
just like tries with her highs.
28:03
Don't look at my pain.
28:04
Yeah.
28:05
Anyway, and one of my friends turned to me
28:07
and she's like, well, Vic earns the most she can get it.
28:09
And it was ingest and she was like, jokes, jokes, jokes.
28:11
And I was like, well, you're not, you're not joking.
28:14
And also now I feel uncomfortable
28:16
and I feel like I have to get it.
28:18
And it was almost started the sense of shame
28:21
of how much I earn.
28:23
Yeah, it was just, it was like,
28:24
this is a really triggering moment where I was like,
28:26
oh my gosh, shall I be paying for everything?
28:28
Is that how it works?
28:29
Is that, you know, I don't know what everyone else earns,
28:32
but I assume, you know, and it just kind of spiraled me.
28:35
And so, yeah, I think I've always had this.
28:37
I had no idea that happened.
28:38
And that makes so much sense.
28:40
Yeah.
28:40
It was like, because when we first started
28:41
having these conversations about salary transparency,
28:44
we started an anonymous salary spreadsheet.
28:46
And we have like thousands of people
28:48
that have put the details in,
28:49
which by the way, if you know what I want to look at,
28:51
we'll put in the show notes for the podcast
28:53
and you can add your details too.
28:54
But when we first started this,
28:56
I remember thinking God is so interesting
28:59
and like really important,
29:00
but that was super uncomfortable with it still.
29:03
And we still hadn't talked to each other
29:05
about what we'd earned.
29:06
But I had no idea that it happened.
29:09
That's like hugely confronting.
29:11
And like, no wonder you felt funny
29:12
about it for such a long time.
29:14
Yeah, which is why it's kind of having conversations
29:16
about salary with friends is I totally see it.
29:20
And with employees and colleagues
29:22
and I totally get it and for the greater good,
29:25
I'm like, yes, we all need to be talking about salaries.
29:27
But yeah, I just think coming from a place
29:30
where it has been quite triggering early on in my life.
29:33
I guess I'm now more confident where I'm like,
29:35
I'd probably have a different response.
29:38
But yeah, it was just quite an interesting dynamic.
29:42
It was kind of the first foray
29:44
of talking about finances with my friends.
29:46
And it wasn't the best one, to be honest, yeah.
29:49
Yeah, that sucks.
29:49
I'm sorry that happened to you.
29:51
I think you felt uncomfortable in that situation
29:54
with that joke rightfully so.
29:56
I think something that I always try to remember
29:58
is like you don't know what somebody else's
30:01
entire financial picture looks like, right?
30:04
You could be talking to somebody
30:06
whose family grew up really poor
30:07
and they never had enough to eat.
30:09
And so when they order too many appetizers
30:11
for the table, you make fun of them.
30:13
And it's like, it's a little tricky
30:16
because unless you know somebody's entire history
30:18
back to front, which I don't think I do
30:19
with any of my girlfriends.
30:20
I like to think we all have like depths to explore, you know?
30:24
I think it's maybe not something to joke about in that way.
30:27
And if you find yourself joking about it,
30:32
maybe try and cut back.
30:33
Because you don't want other people to feel uncomfortable.
30:35
I would never want my friends to feel uncomfortable
30:37
talking with me about anything, you know?
30:39
I think it's also realizing,
30:40
and comes only one side of someone's financial situation.
30:43
You have no idea what their expenses are or their outgoing.
30:47
It's yet they could be earning millions
30:49
that would be terrible with money or have really sick children
30:53
that they need to pay for and therefore they don't have
30:55
hardly any disposal in time.
30:57
Yeah, you have no idea.
30:58
It's judging someone by what they earn
31:00
is really only one side of the conversation, definitely.
31:04
I wanted to touch on just the legalities
31:07
of talking about salaries with employers and employers.
31:11
Because when we did that anonymous salary spreadsheet
31:13
that Sophie was talking about,
31:15
we did have a few employers reach out saying,
31:18
I don't want my staff talking about salaries.
31:20
I don't condone salary, transparency.
31:22
And I know in some countries like Australia and the US,
31:26
it's illegal for employers to make their employees
31:29
keep their salary confidential
31:31
and in the UK and New Zealand are kind of getting there.
31:34
But yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
31:36
And I guess from an employer lens,
31:39
why they don't like it,
31:40
why they don't want to encourage it and all of that.
31:43
So I mean, not to sound like a conspiracy theorist,
31:45
but the reason that the employers don't want
31:48
their employees talking about their salaries
31:50
is because they don't want people comparing notes.
31:52
Because then those people will inevitably come to them
31:55
and be like, hey, over there, Nick and accounting
31:58
makes a lot more than I do would do the same job.
32:00
Give me a razor I'm walking.
32:02
Like I understand why the employers don't want us
32:04
to talk about it.
32:05
It's very clear, actually.
32:06
It's a profit thing, right?
32:08
But I do think that it is something
32:10
that is very, very important to do
32:12
for the reasons that we talked about.
32:14
When you have proof of somebody who is making more or less
32:19
than you, honestly, for the same amount of work,
32:21
that is an issue that they need to have the power to rectify.
32:25
So we have this trend happening here in the states.
32:28
I don't know if it's happening other places
32:30
where certain cities are now passing laws
32:34
where you have to put the salary range
32:35
for the position in the job posting.
32:37
That is not something we've always had here.
32:39
It's not something that's nationwide right now,
32:41
but we do have it in New York City, which is where I live.
32:43
And I do think that it's kind of been a springboard
32:46
for a lot of these conversations around salary
32:48
that we weren't having before,
32:49
because it does give everybody at least one piece
32:52
of information, at least one benchmark
32:54
for them to compare themselves to.
32:56
So that goes for current employees.
32:59
So say that my company advertises a position
33:01
that's very similar to mine,
33:03
and I see that the salary range is way, way, way, way,
33:05
higher than I make.
33:06
That can be fuel for me then to go to my manager
33:09
or my HR department and be like, what's up?
33:12
But it also can be helpful in terms of deciding
33:16
what is too low for you,
33:18
deciding what is maybe not in your range,
33:20
which you can't make workable.
33:22
And then again, talking with your friends.
33:23
So I don't know about you,
33:25
but my friends are always sending job postings back and forth
33:27
and it can kind of be a foundation
33:29
for our own discussions about our own salaries
33:32
and our own careers because I can pick up on clues
33:35
as we're talking about what the listed salary range
33:38
and that job posting is,
33:40
that I can then infer kind of how my friend feels about money
33:43
and how I might start to think about my own earnings.
33:46
So I'm a big fan of salary ranges and postings.
33:49
You don't wanna get pigeonholed though,
33:51
I think, in saying that everyone's gonna earn X amount.
33:54
And then if someone's really good at their job,
33:56
they still get paid X.
33:57
Someone's really bad at their job,
33:58
they still get paid X.
34:00
I think that having a band though is really good
34:02
because it allows for individual performance
34:06
but also knowing the value of what you're going into,
34:10
knowing the value of the job,
34:11
what you can get paid, the compensation.
34:13
And then you can kind of put your own performance
34:16
on top of that I think is really important.
34:18
I think I just like having it on paper somewhere.
34:21
You know, much like you're talking about
34:22
your anonymous salaries spreadsheet,
34:25
the fact that there is a resource that is,
34:29
I mean, not physical, but physical-ish
34:31
that you can then point to and use almost as like proof
34:36
that you're not crazy, that really, I don't know,
34:39
that might just be a me problem,
34:40
but it does help me.
34:41
Like seeing somebody else talk about their money
34:45
and how much they earn and having those details somewhere
34:48
where it's like a textbook.
34:50
Like I'm like, there it is.
34:51
And having the job posting where the salary range is listed,
34:54
of course, you're right,
34:55
it's not gonna be the same for everybody,
34:56
but being able to have at least that tiny reference point
35:00
really helps me in the way that I think about my own money.
35:03
And it also saves both parties a lot of time.
35:05
If you go through the rigmarole of an interview
35:08
after interview and applying for this job,
35:09
and then you get to the final conversation
35:11
and you're not on the same page in terms of salary,
35:14
you just say, oh, cool.
35:15
Awesome.
35:16
How annoying is that when you get to the interview
35:19
and they're like, how much are you hoping for?
35:21
And it's honestly, it's like,
35:22
oh, but how much do you have?
35:23
Oh, how much do you want?
35:23
How much do you have?
35:24
Oh, yeah.
35:25
And someone just give us a bit of a roadmap here
35:27
because like, oh, good for everyone.
35:29
And then within those five minutes of them asking that question,
35:32
you're trying to figure out, oh, don't sound,
35:35
you don't price yourself too high.
35:36
Don't sound too greedy.
35:37
But don't price yourself too low.
35:38
Yeah, 100 grand.
35:40
I'll let you just say.
35:41
And they're probably in the head going,
35:42
well, we were going to offer 150.
35:45
You're like, it's so annoying.
35:46
It's such a ship as well that it comes down to that one moment.
35:49
There's nothing to do with your ability,
35:50
nothing to do with anything else
35:52
other than how you answer that question.
35:54
Like, come on, let's not be so shit to everybody.
35:58
I just wanted to touch on in the article
36:00
when you said that you took the question to your group chat.
36:02
I would love to pose something to our listeners of,
36:06
I would love to try it out with their group chat.
36:09
Like, I would love to do it as a little test case for myself
36:12
to put it to my girl group chat and say,
36:14
hey, how comfortable is everyone talking about salaries?
36:17
Has it ever happened to you?
36:19
Are you open about talking about it?
36:20
Can we do it as like a game thing?
36:22
So it's like you, I don't know if people can share their advice.
36:25
I mean, share the response.
36:26
And I always say anonymously,
36:27
but it would be a really cool thing
36:29
to just like, open the combo.
36:31
What would be a fun first take?
36:32
Yeah, I love that idea.
36:33
I think that's a super fun challenge
36:35
that everybody should try to take.
36:37
I think I would advise that the first text would be like,
36:40
hey, random question, wanna try something.
36:43
How does everybody feel about sharing their salary?
36:47
And then I would say that that is a great group text conversation
36:52
up to a certain point.
36:53
Because I don't know how comfortable
36:57
everybody would feel discussing hard numbers
37:00
in a screenshotable environment.
37:02
For sure.
37:02
That is something that my paranoid brain
37:05
might feel a little bit uncomfortable with.
37:08
I would love maybe to see people use it as a springboard, right?
37:11
So say, hey, just wanna try something.
37:13
Everybody put in the chat, no judgment.
37:15
How do you feel about talking about money?
37:17
And then using that as fuel later on,
37:19
when you are in person, not at a house party,
37:22
not in front of a ton of people,
37:23
not when the waiter is over your shoulder,
37:25
but in a comfortable situation
37:26
to kind of circle back to that and be like, yeah,
37:28
so I make ADK.
37:29
Hey, do you feel like you're fairly paid for your job?
37:31
Leave it open ended, and then people respond.
37:35
But yeah, I love that.
37:36
Put in the group chat, it's uncomfortable.
37:38
It is something that you're gonna have to practice over time,
37:40
but I think it's worth it.
37:42
Like I think it's worth it for you personally,
37:44
and I also think it's worth it for like women as a whole
37:47
and for society and the world and all of that good stuff.
37:51
It is uncomfortable, but it's good.
37:53
And I think we underestimate even that little task
37:56
of having that question in your girl group chat.
37:59
It might not seem like it does anything significant,
38:03
but you've just put that notion of talking about salaries
38:08
into the minds of, I don't know, six to 10 other females.
38:11
And then it's like, you know, I don't know,
38:13
I feel like every little step has to do with the credit code.
38:17
You don't have to go in there to expose what you earn
38:19
straight away if you don't feel comfortable,
38:20
but it's just like you said, dip your toe in.
38:22
And I need to get my parents to do the same thing
38:25
because I think it just makes it's your universal.
38:28
It could help your girlfriend get a raise.
38:30
There's nothing that's like more girl power
38:32
than helping each other make more money.
38:34
Wouldn't you love if sharing your salary,
38:37
which is something that you might feel a little bit hesitant
38:40
about helps your friend accomplish one of their goals?
38:43
Like, isn't that friendship?
38:44
I don't know.
38:45
I just love that idea.
38:46
So yeah, try it, try it.
38:47
Oh my God.
38:48
I don't think we've got anything else to add.
38:49
Let's just end it there.
38:50
That was tough and fantastic.
38:51
That was the trick.
38:52
But yeah, we love that.
38:54
Thank you so much for your time.
38:55
Yeah, absolutely any time.
38:56
Thank you so much.
38:57
Bye.
38:58
Bye.
38:59
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
39:02
These conversations are designed to teach you
39:04
everything that you need to know to be better with your money,
39:07
from saving, to investing, to talking to your friends
39:09
about your salaries.
39:11
And if you liked what you heard, we would love it.
39:13
If you could hit subscribe button, please.
39:15
Yes, please.
39:15
Better yet.
39:16
Leave a review.
39:17
It'll only take five seconds,
39:19
and it would really make our week, our year, our month.
39:22
OK, lots of love.
39:23
See you soon.
39:24
Bye.