Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / Here Comes the Judge!

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Here Comes the Judge! · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everyone.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright here along with Terry Summers.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: We are back with the Deep Grace Diving Podcast with Tim Wright and Terry Summers.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to play the role of Tim Wright as I normally do.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Terry Summers, would you play the role of Terry Summers?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're good at this.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're an actress.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, this is some really fabulous casting.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Tim.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I, gosh, I missed hanging with you.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: We had such a great time last week, and we will every week.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: But, yes, I am an actress.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: I just totally skimmed right over that.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: As you pointed out, Arizona Actress of the Year for now until the return of Jesus.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why not?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Once you're labeled that, you get to wear it, right?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Some people think so, yeah.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: All right,
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: so we are,
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: in this podcast,
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: we are talking about things of faith,
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: the Bible,
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Scripture,
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus,
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: and all of it through the lens of grace.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And today, Terri, what's our topic?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: What are we looking at?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're looking at...
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: it comes off of a question that you mentioned or something that you hit on last
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: time that if we go to scripture,
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes there's some things in there that might not seem so graceful.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: And seeing God as a judge,
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: for me anyway,
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: directly opposes,
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe that's not fair to say,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: but a grace place.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that if someone is looking at him from a graceful perspective,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: they would struggle with the judgment part of it.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Did I say that?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So when you hear the word judge, what comes to your mind?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: What picture?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: What image?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Authority.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And someone that I'm at risk of...
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: them finding fault and, and blame and responsibility.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe anger, maybe anger.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And someone, did I pack on my lunchbox with that?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: You did mention someone in authority.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And of course we think legally of judges who sit on the bench and they dispense
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: justice or they dispense punishment for crimes committed.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we, when we visualize Jesus as judge or God as judge, that's the image that we have, uh,
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And to use a word punitive, that God is a punishing judge.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: In a lot of churches,
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: ours included,
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: we'll say the Apostles' Creed and Christians all over the world say he will come
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: again to judge the living and the dead.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And depending on which side you're on, that could be good news or bad news.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, if you're in, whatever that means, well, no big deal.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: The judge is on my side.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're out,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: or at least those who look at you think you're out,
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: then you're going to get your comeuppance and you're going to get exactly what you deserve.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, in some realms of Christianity, Jesus as judge, judging the outsiders and
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: brings a bit too much delight to Christians.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Good, finally, they're going to get what they deserve, an eternity in hell.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you're right.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: The image of God as judge does not seem all that graceful.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of people who will put words, well, yes, God is gracious, but God is also just.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: But then they never reconcile those two.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because in our,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: at least in the United States of America,
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: grace and justice are on two opposite ends of the spectrum.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: There is no grace in justice in terms of how we look at punishment.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's no wiggle room.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: The law says what the law says.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: The gavel comes down.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then when it comes to the side of grace,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: if you misunderstand grace,
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: it seems loosey-goosey and there's no justice in it.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody gets a free pass.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so it causes a lot of confusion.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm guessing you're one of those ones.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And also when you said whether we're in, then the judge is on our side.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: But even still,
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: if we are one of those that can claim that we're in from just that perspective that
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: would tag us that way,
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I even still feel like I'm subject to the judgment.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I was growing up,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: one of the,
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: one of the scare tactics,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say it that way now,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: used to sort of keep us in line as Christians was to say that even though we're in,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: even though our eternity is secure,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: someday we're all going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there's going to be a big video screen.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And in front of everybody,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is going to replay all of the stuff that we've done in our lives that was sinful.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Now, who came up with that?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I heard the very same thing and I didn't grow up in your city or your state.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know, isn't that, it's just, it's a really sick theology, number one.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked about this in one of our other podcasts, that sometimes religion is used to control people.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: And what grace does is it turns all that upside down.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: You can't control people, it only transforms people.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: so there's this belief that even though we're in,
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: that's what you're saying,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: we're still going to have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: and we're going to be really embarrassed and ashamed.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then Jesus will say, oh, you know what?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's okay.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's fine.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Come on in.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's by the skin of our teeth.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can understand why so many Christians live in Christians live in fear of
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: this God,
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: because someday we're going to have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ and
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: all of our sins will be exposed to everybody,
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: which doesn't sound real graceful at all.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And how so you said that most often those don't get reconciled.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: How do you reconcile that?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: So let's look at a story to begin,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: which is not a story that people generally associate with grace and justice or with judgment.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it is.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And those who have heard me before will say, oh, here it comes.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Luke chapter 15, my favorite passage of scripture, period.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: The story of the two sons, the prodigal son and the older brother.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I am convinced that if we had nothing else in our Bibles but that story,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: we would have everything we need to know about what God's grace is like.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: So let me tease out the story a little bit, fill in a few blanks so that people get a sense of it.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of throw your hand up when you want clarification.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we have this story that Jesus is telling.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And to put in context, we're going to try to hear it from the perspective of Jesus' original audience.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a Jewish family.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: The father is wealthy.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the younger son goes to his dad and he says, I would like to have my inheritance early.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So immediately the audience gasps.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because what that young man has said to his dad is, I wish you were dead.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: I would rather have your money than a relationship with you, which was scandalous.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, it's an honor-shame culture.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So shame is the unpardonable sin.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: So this young man has already brought shame onto his father and to his father's family.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: and by extension, the community, because they were a very community-based, communal-based society.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So for whatever reason, this father gives the son the money.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so right away,
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: we know this dad is a little different because in that culture,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: what dad would have done was had his servants beat the kid up and he would have
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: been kicked out of the family.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: But the father doesn't do that.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: He gives the son the money and the son leaves
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: and goes to a faraway land.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So a second gasp, because faraway land means a non-Jewish land.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: So this young Jewish man has basically shamed his dad by asking for his inheritance early,
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: and now he's brought shame onto his dad and the community by defiling himself,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: hanging out with Gentiles.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: He's become unclean.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then...
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: He ends up destitute.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: He loses all of his money and a recession hits.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the only thing he can do to survive is feed pigs.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And Terry,
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: as you know,
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: from your scholarly background in Old Testament theology,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: pigs are what we call unclean.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you touch a pig, you become defiled by that pig.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: You become ceremonially unclean.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So right away, the audience in Jesus' day says three strikes.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's shamed his father.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: He's defiled himself in a Gentile land.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: He's defiled himself with pigs.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Three strikes, he's out.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And as far as the story, the audience is concerned, that young man is now dead.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: He is no longer allowed back into his family.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Judgment has been leveled.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: But this young man sort of has an epiphany moment.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he says to himself, you know, the dogs, my pet dogs are eating better than I am right now back home.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to go home and I'm going to say to dad, look, I know I've blown it.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm not worthy to be your son.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hire me to work for you as a servant.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, normally when we hear this sermon preached, we hear about this young man's repentant heart.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not what's happening at all.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: This young man
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: is going home with a scheme to save himself.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the scheme is this.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna basically say, dad, I can't be your son because he's dead now.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: He knows that.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So he wants to be hired,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: treated like the other servants in the hope that he can make his money back,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: pay his dad back all the money that he took from his dad.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully by then dad will say,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: you're back in the family and he'll get the inheritance all over again.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's his scheme.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: He's not repentant.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: He's not sad.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's not sorrowful.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's going home belligerent to try to manipulate his dad.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the problem for him is in order to get to his father's house, he's got to walk through the village.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if the villagers see him, they will grab him.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: They will beat him up and they will banish him from the community.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Again, judgment has been set.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: He's three strikes.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: He's out.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: He is dead.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: As far as that Jewish audience is concerned.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: So he's got to figure out a way to make it through the gauntlet to his dad.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the story takes a dramatic turn.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: As the young man is approaching the village, his father sees him.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And his father.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: runs through the gauntlet to his son to get to him first.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a couple things about this.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, a father would never run in public.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: It would strike a blow to his reputation.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: It would bring shame onto his honor.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And a father would certainly never run in public lifting up his robes
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: exposing his ankles, which he would have to do in order to run to his son.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now the mother, if there had been a mother, might have run, but not the father.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: So now we see again that this father is different.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: He basically sacrifices his character and his honor to run to his son, to get to him first.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And what does he do?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: He throws his arms around his son to protect him.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: to say to the villagers who are gathering, don't lay a hand on him.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: He's my son.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: He's under my protection.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then he puts a robe on his shoulders to say that this young man belongs to my family.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Puts the ring of sonship onto his finger and then puts sandals onto his feet
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: because servants go barefoot,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: sons don't.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then serves a feast.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: This young man has broken all the rules.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: The law has judged him as dead.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: But the father has judged him differently.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than judging him punitively, this father judges him with restorative justice.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Not a justice that punishes, but a justice that puts things right again through restoration.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: and fixing what is broken.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Both of them deal with justice, right?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Both of them deal with offense,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: but one deals with it through punishment,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: and one deals with it by putting it back together and restoring it.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what the father does.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: He comes as a judge of grace to restore his son.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all the act of the father.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because the son is dead.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it's grace.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so the father says, this son of mine was dead, but he's alive again.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: In essence, he's saying, I gave him his life back.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: He was dead, but I gave him his life back.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So he's judged dead, but grace comes along and restores him back to life again.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so when the older brother comes home, what is he upset about?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: That the law wasn't served.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: that his brother got away with it.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't punished.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the father says, I took care of it because the father is a restorative judge, not a punitive judge.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So our problem with our understanding of God as judge is that we tend to see God
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: through the lens of our penal systems,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: our penal codes,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: our legal systems.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so judges are punitive.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: God would be punitive.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: But the Bible speaks over and over again,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: and I think through that story,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: that God is a restorative judge,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: a God who uses grace to bring about justice,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: and that justice is to put broken pieces back together again.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: In the case of this son, he gives him back his life.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: In the case of all of us, when God comes as judge, God doesn't judge with punitive, with punishment.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: He judges with forgiveness.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: and with restoration and puts us back together.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why Colossians talks about how God will reconcile all things,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: all,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: not just some,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: but all things to himself through Jesus,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: because God is a God of restorative justice,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: not punitive justice.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have just preached the sermon.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: You have.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that is why I have kept my mouth shut.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: You, um,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: my,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: my chin started quivering and my nose got red and I've heard the story and I've
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: heard you preach on that before,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: but it is such a powerful heart impacting.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: representation of the full gospel.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just like you said,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I'd ever considered that,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: as I'm listening to you,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm asking myself,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: why am I responding like this?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: It is because that is how God sees me.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: He, you know, the, the idea of justice and here's where my ignorance might show.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think I have some vague, broad strokes of, of what justice is, but
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: in what you just said,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: justice as in putting pieces back together again,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: that has a very,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: that to me feels like the edges are softer than I ever would contemplate looking at justice.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: across the board,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: but when I hear that,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think of,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: and not in beating myself on the back necessarily,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: but all those things that I am so
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: well, guilty of.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to cry on your,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: your,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: my,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: whatever podcast,
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm close because that is just life changing and it all rests right there.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: for me to be shoulder to shoulder with anyone in the very same position as a human being,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: to know that I am a recipient of that kind of grace and restorative justice is
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: nothing but life changing.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yet we, you know,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, think about the ways that we talk about faith or that we often hear people talk about faith.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Lutherans aren't necessarily known for talking about their faith out loud,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: like maybe some of our more evangelical friends.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what's the stereotypical message we see signs,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: at big events say repent or you're going to hell,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's punitive.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's punitive justice.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And who's really interested in that?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: But if we were to love our neighbors as we love ourselves,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: if we were to get involved in those areas of life that are broken and do things
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: positively to put broken things back together and start doing acts of justice,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: treating our neighbors,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: all people,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: with respect,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: people would open their eyes and say,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: maybe there is something to this that's attractive.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Punitive justice always pushes us away.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Restorative grace draws people and invites people in.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And yet so much of our Christianity,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: at least the popular version of it out in our culture in the United States,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: is punitive based.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Either you believe in Jesus, you're going to hell.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's what God is like.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because God's got really thin skin.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't like the way God's doing things,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: he's just going to turn around and burn you up as a French fry for eternity.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're right.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: That somehow just doesn't quite square with a God who will go to the cross for the entire world.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So let me drag in some of my theological heritage.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what of the talk or this of hell?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: I remember my uncle and I,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: and this is where,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: I am,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: guilty of,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: not always,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: being as going as deep as me or,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: or doing a deep dive everywhere on everything.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: But my uncle said that hell, um,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Why would that ever get dismissed?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Why did it get mentioned so many times in scripture if it were not a fiery place?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if that was not part of the judgment of not reconciling our lives with God.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So can you address that?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I would love to address that.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think we will do it more fully in another podcast because it's a really big topic.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: But let me just say a couple of things about it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: First of all,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: and we'll come back to this in another podcast,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: our understanding of hell isn't based on the Bible.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's based on Dante's Inferno.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: All these images we have are really based on that, more so than what we have in the Bible.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Secondly, there are images of this fire constantly burning.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: to describe hell, but heaven is also described as streets paved with gold.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: But we all understand that that's metaphor.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's describing something that we can't describe in words.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we're going to be walking around on streets paved with gold.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we are, but I don't think that's the point.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it was meant to be taken literally,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: nor do I think images of lakes of fire should be taken literally.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or gnashing of teeth.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or gnashing of teeth.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then also...
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: We need to remember that Gehenna,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: which is the word that's translated into hell,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: was an actual place in Jerusalem.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's a ravine,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: in Jerusalem,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: where in the Old Testament,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: the Canaanite peoples burned children for sacrifice.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a place of constant, constant fire, even into Jesus' day.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so when Jesus references Gehenna,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: we've got to go back and understand what did that mean to those who lived right there?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the images?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: What's the Old Testament background to all of that?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we're teasing some stuff out for another podcast,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: but let me finally say that on the cross,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus entered into hell when he said,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: my God,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: my God,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: why have you forsaken me?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: That place of the complete absence of God
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: People go through that all the time right now.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Hell isn't a place that bad people will be sent to someday.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hell is a reality of real life every day for billions of people all around the world.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: The hell that we're experiencing right now between Israel and Gaza and the sheer
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: panic that's taking place in those places.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: The hell that the people in Ukraine are living through.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: The hell that people who are food deprived are living through.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: People who are depressed.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: People who can't get access to health care.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: People are living in hell every day.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the point of the gospel isn't that God sends us to hell.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: The point of the gospel is that Jesus enters into hell with us.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And when Jesus entered into hell, God, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: In the next breath, he says, Father, into your hands do I commit my spirit.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: That even in hell, God had not abandoned him.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so hell is far deeper.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: and far more nuanced than this simple understanding that God's going to send bad
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: people to hell,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: as we will discuss in another podcast,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: if God comes to restore and not punish,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: then really what is all this hell and who's being thrown into it?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So those are a few teasers for another podcast,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: but we got to start with the starting point has to be right.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you start with hell,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: and work it back to God, then you get this mean, angry, vengeful, punitive God.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you start with God as a father,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: as creator,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: as restorer,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: and then you ask,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: so what does hell mean through the lens of that kind of God who goes through the
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: cross for us?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Then we start to see hell differently and more in line, I think, with what Jesus is talking about.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: That is a lot.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I, and, uh, uh, but I am sure that, let me just say this, like, uh, well, you know what?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, we can say it for another, I'll attach it to another podcast, but the, um, the, uh,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Story of the prodigal son is one that I want to work into remembering.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that I asked you on a previous podcast about how do we remind ourselves
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: of the grace to live from that place because it's so easily forgotten.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that in moments like this with you, in gathering together with other believers in worship,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: reminding ourselves in that and,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: and diving into that story has got to be,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: a way for Terry Summers and others to live into that grace that is ours.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it does feel so much like, um,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: a weight gets lifted off my shoulders.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know that's why my nose got red.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that's why the tears were right there because I have an overdeveloped
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: sense of responsibility as a person anyway.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: So says my therapist.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: But that has been, I've been, someone's met me there and said, let me take, ah, here I go.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Let me take that for you.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: as you're talking about that,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: just one of the things that I find helpful,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: especially with the stories of Jesus and the parables he tells or just the stories
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: of Jesus doing things is to read the story through a few times,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: like once a day for a week.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And each time I read it,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: to put myself in the position of a different character or a different viewpoint.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: So to sort of read it through and jot down some notes.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: If I were the prodigal son, what would I be thinking right now?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: What would I be thinking here?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: All right, my dad runs to me.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now what am I thinking?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe one time put myself in the position of the audience hearing that story for
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: the first time and just the blood boiling.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's not a prodigal that you're thinking about,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: but maybe there's somebody in your life where you think,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: three strikes,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: that guy's out.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden God runs to him and says, nope, it's good.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: God runs to her and says, you're in.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: What does that feel like?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe from the perspective of the father himself, what is the father seeing that I'm not seeing?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And every day,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: you just start to live with this story until it embeds itself into your soul is one
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: good way.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you can do that with any Jesus story.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's one good way to read the Bible devotionally
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's just to pick a story and spend three,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: four days on it,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: jot some notes down,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: read it from a different perspective.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a Bible.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, my microphone's sitting on top of it right now.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's the New Revised Standard Version, and on both sides of the Bible are places to write notes.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just a great tool so that when I'm reading the story,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can circle words,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I can write out what I'm thinking in that moment.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great way to keep us connected.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not to a punitive judge, but to a restorative judge.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: A God of grace, a judge of grace.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: So Terry, I know next week you would ask me a question we're going to get to.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's grace, truth, and lies.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to talk about next week.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Terry, thank you so much.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Tim.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is just the best.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And for those of you who are listening,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: if you are enjoying this and are getting something out of it,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: please share it with your friends.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let them know we're here and we'd love to have them be along for the ride.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're going to give you a little more code as we leave.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is God saying grace to you.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Have a good week.