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China’s Biotech Rise: What Tim Scott Saw Inside Shanghai · Making Medicine

0:00
Speaker 1: At Making Medicine. We're reporting on the headlines, not making
0:03
Speaker 1: medical recommendations. For personal health questions, always ask your doctor.
0:08
Speaker 1: Nothing in this episode constitutes investment, financial, or legal advice.
0:13
Speaker 1: Consult your own advisors before making decisions.
0:18
Speaker 2: The US is number one in biomedical research in the
0:21
Speaker 2: world right now, and China is really working hard to
0:25
Speaker 2: catch up. They are playing to win. And if you
0:28
Speaker 2: put in protectionist measures and you are like coins and
0:33
Speaker 2: like biosecure, and you're saying, you know, we're going to
0:35
Speaker 2: be conservative about this, We're going to try to slow
0:37
Speaker 2: other people down. We're no longer playing to win, We're
0:41
Speaker 2: playing to not please.
0:48
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Making Medicine podcast, where science, policy
0:52
Speaker 1: and innovation meet. On today's episode, we're joined by Tim Scott,
0:57
Speaker 1: President and CEO of Biocom. For those of you who
0:59
Speaker 1: don't know so, Biocom represents California's biotech and life science
1:03
Speaker 1: to ecosystem. They connect their members to funding and partnering opportunities.
1:08
Speaker 1: They drive policy and advocacy, and they're developing a workforce
1:11
Speaker 1: in the state that keeps it all moving. Before leading Biocom,
1:15
Speaker 1: Tim spent more than twenty years as an entrepreneur himself
1:18
Speaker 1: co founding companies, supporting U see San Diego spinouts, and
1:22
Speaker 1: even taking one of his ventures all the way to
1:24
Speaker 1: acquisition by Catalan. We're also fortunate to have Tim in
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Speaker 1: this moment because he is just back from leading a
1:30
Speaker 1: delegation to Shanghai, and we'll be getting into what he
1:33
Speaker 1: saw on the ground in China and how that shapes
1:36
Speaker 1: his perspective for the future of global life sciences leadership.
1:40
Speaker 1: Let's get into the show. Tim, Welcome to the show.
1:43
Speaker 2: It's good to be here. Thanks.
1:45
Speaker 1: Well, I want to get into I'm not going to
1:47
Speaker 1: bury the lead. You're fresh off this incredible trip to China.
1:50
Speaker 1: China is so much in focus, and so I promise
1:53
Speaker 1: to our listeners we're going to get there. But for
1:56
Speaker 1: folks who don't know Biocom and your journey, maybe start there.
2:01
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about biocom and what are
2:05
Speaker 1: you focusing on for California right now.
2:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for asking the question in that way, because
2:12
Speaker 2: a lot of the reason why I'm here is because
2:15
Speaker 2: of the journey that I've been on, which is twenty
2:18
Speaker 2: five years as a biotech entrepreneur, and that's both on
2:22
Speaker 2: the biotech sponsor side, but also on the services side.
2:27
Speaker 2: I've worked and founded companies in both areas, but that
2:32
Speaker 2: entire time I was always a member of BIOCOM. I
2:36
Speaker 2: was for the last sixteen years have been a board
2:39
Speaker 2: member as well, and I really value the community aspect
2:46
Speaker 2: of what a trade organization brings. There's so many other
2:49
Speaker 2: pieces of what a trade organization brings with policy and
2:53
Speaker 2: group purchasing and the events, but the community aspect of
2:58
Speaker 2: it is just really important, especially for a startup entrepreneur.
3:03
Speaker 2: In some cases you're totally by yourself and you need
3:06
Speaker 2: this community to be supportive to help you kind of
3:10
Speaker 2: get through those challenging times. And so now that I'm
3:13
Speaker 2: on the other side running BIOCOM, having had that experience
3:17
Speaker 2: as opposed to coming in as a policy person, it's
3:22
Speaker 2: really gratifying for me because now I feel like I'm
3:27
Speaker 2: helping all the companies in our industry, all eighteen hundred
3:30
Speaker 2: member companies that we have as I take on different
3:35
Speaker 2: aspects of the policy and then support that we need
3:39
Speaker 2: to do for members. So super gratifying to be on
3:42
Speaker 2: that side and to just see every day what this
3:47
Speaker 2: industry is discovering and what they're achieving. I mean, you
3:52
Speaker 2: can't you could find a more fun job. And then
3:55
Speaker 2: at the same time, I probably came in at one
3:58
Speaker 2: of the most challenged times that you can imagine, with
4:03
Speaker 2: a new administration coming off of the pandemic and the
4:07
Speaker 2: biotech winter. Financially that we've been through, you know, the
4:12
Speaker 2: things that we've been dealing with in terms of headwinds
4:16
Speaker 2: that include you know, not on a terriffs but most
4:19
Speaker 2: vapor nation PBMs three forty b RFK. I mean, you know,
4:26
Speaker 2: all of it has been a challenge, but it also
4:30
Speaker 2: allows me to kind of step in and say, wow,
4:32
Speaker 2: now I need now I know why I'm here.
4:34
Speaker 1: And how do you you know, I was fortunate to
4:37
Speaker 1: see you in Washington just a couple of weeks ago,
4:42
Speaker 1: and you know, there's probably an antiquated notion of state
4:47
Speaker 1: trade associations in any industry focusing you know, in their backyard,
4:52
Speaker 1: and you know, tim focus on making sure Sacramento is
4:55
Speaker 1: enabling this ecosystem. But definitely post COVID, it's been critically
5:00
Speaker 1: important that states for whom their economy relies on the
5:05
Speaker 1: life sciences take on federal work. So what role does
5:10
Speaker 1: coming to Washington and trying to shape federal policy? How
5:13
Speaker 1: do you blend that with also bringing a California lens
5:16
Speaker 1: and how do policymakers respond to the facts that California
5:22
Speaker 1: is really driving a lot of life sciences innovation.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to acknowledge that there are trade
5:30
Speaker 2: organizations in almost every state, but most of them are
5:37
Speaker 2: one to three person operations, and they really do need
5:42
Speaker 2: the support of the larger organizations, whether it's bio or pharma,
5:46
Speaker 2: or whether it's a group like biocom who can step
5:50
Speaker 2: in and help support them because they're limited in their resources.
5:54
Speaker 2: And once again, I'm also very lucky in that we
5:57
Speaker 2: have a very long, large state just geographically and so
6:02
Speaker 2: within that state for very large clusters life science clusters
6:08
Speaker 2: between the Bay Area and LA and San Diego and
6:10
Speaker 2: then Orange County with devices you know, four hundred billion
6:16
Speaker 2: dollars of economic output there and and four hundred thousand
6:23
Speaker 2: you know employees, with another million jobs supported, you know,
6:27
Speaker 2: six billion in NIH funding, twenty billion in venture capital,
6:32
Speaker 2: another eighty billion in private capital. I mean, it's just
6:36
Speaker 2: a big state and we have a lot going on.
6:39
Speaker 2: And I think I saw on your website that you
6:41
Speaker 2: have a policy lab and it's a term that I've
6:44
Speaker 2: been using here with our team as well to say, like,
6:48
Speaker 2: you know, we need to be a policy lab we
6:50
Speaker 2: need to be out pushing so that the smaller state
6:54
Speaker 2: organizations can grab this and utilize it. So so I
6:59
Speaker 2: don't take that lifely, that leadership role that we have
7:03
Speaker 2: and that mass Bio has and some of the larger
7:05
Speaker 2: state organizations that we have in that so, you know,
7:09
Speaker 2: because we have the resources. We do have three people
7:12
Speaker 2: in Washington, d c. That are very focused on what's
7:16
Speaker 2: happening at the federal level, and we have two people
7:19
Speaker 2: in the state capital as well, and in all of
7:22
Speaker 2: those cases, again, the community matters. The more companies you
7:27
Speaker 2: can bring, the more stories you can bring to support
7:31
Speaker 2: the policies that we care about, the better. And I've
7:35
Speaker 2: noticed that legislators are very responsive to that. You come
7:38
Speaker 2: in as a small business owner and you're telling your
7:41
Speaker 2: story about the challenges that you have. They're very thoughtful,
7:45
Speaker 2: and the staff members especially incredibly bright. They want to help.
7:50
Speaker 2: And so I've really found it a great experience to
7:53
Speaker 2: be able to go back to Washington no matter who
7:55
Speaker 2: I'm talking to, even if someone doesn't quite agree with me,
7:58
Speaker 2: they'll let me know and we'll say, like let's let's
8:00
Speaker 2: sit down and talk about this and understand each other's
8:03
Speaker 2: point of view.
8:04
Speaker 1: Well, I think you're kudos to you into biocom for
8:07
Speaker 1: bringing another voice. There are large national orgs, but you know,
8:12
Speaker 1: we just hear time and again from policymakers. They want
8:15
Speaker 1: to hear from everybody. So we talked a little bit
8:18
Speaker 1: about you coming east. Let's talk a little bit. A
8:21
Speaker 1: slightly longer trip than you getting to d C is
8:25
Speaker 1: a trip to China and you are just back from
8:29
Speaker 1: this incredible delegation that you led. Maybe start by telling
8:33
Speaker 1: us where did this delegation come from? When did you
8:35
Speaker 1: wake up one morning said you know what, I need
8:37
Speaker 1: to take some of my members to China, or you know,
8:41
Speaker 1: I know biocom travels internationally to keep its pulse on
8:46
Speaker 1: the international scene. So tell us a little bit about
8:48
Speaker 1: how this trip came to be and then we'll get
8:50
Speaker 1: into what you saw.
8:52
Speaker 2: Two years ago at our Global Partnering and Investment conference,
8:56
Speaker 2: we had five strategic Pharma BD people that were on
9:03
Speaker 2: stage and the question that came up was you know,
9:06
Speaker 2: where are you finding your deals right now? And the
9:09
Speaker 2: first one said, I just did. I just licensed two
9:12
Speaker 2: molecules out of China, and my ears perked up because
9:16
Speaker 2: then the next person said, oh, we have an office
9:18
Speaker 2: in China, and then the person next to them said,
9:21
Speaker 2: I'm getting ready to close a couple of deals. And
9:25
Speaker 2: then the last person in line said, oh, my god,
9:29
Speaker 2: I'm not in China and I need to figure out
9:32
Speaker 2: what I'm missing here. And it was a real wake
9:35
Speaker 2: up call for me. And at that moment, we really
9:37
Speaker 2: started engaging with our members and having discussions about what
9:41
Speaker 2: is happening in China. And this is an organization in
9:44
Speaker 2: biocom that has been deeply engaged in the Pacific rimp.
9:48
Speaker 2: We've had a twenty year relationship with folks in Japan,
9:52
Speaker 2: and we have an office in Tokyo, long standing relationships
9:55
Speaker 2: with Australia and Korea and Taiwan. I mean, we really
9:59
Speaker 2: have spent the time and effort to develop those relationships
10:02
Speaker 2: because we know that all of those folks want to
10:06
Speaker 2: come to the US market eventually, and coming through California
10:09
Speaker 2: is the easiest thing for them to do, and it
10:13
Speaker 2: also is the best landing point for them to come
10:17
Speaker 2: through California, whether they're having services done here, whether they're
10:20
Speaker 2: in a clinical trial here, whether they need support on
10:23
Speaker 2: their regulatory We've always valued that relationship. We hadn't spent
10:28
Speaker 2: any time in China in the last ten years, and
10:31
Speaker 2: so we had taken trips there, but we really had
10:34
Speaker 2: not spent a lot of effort there. When I heard that,
10:38
Speaker 2: I knew that things were changing pretty dramatically, and so
10:41
Speaker 2: we really dug in. We started talking to a lot
10:44
Speaker 2: of the large pharma groups, and what we realized is
10:47
Speaker 2: that they were all in China already. They were way
10:50
Speaker 2: ahead of the curve on this, and a lot of
10:53
Speaker 2: that had to do with the fact that the Chinese
10:56
Speaker 2: had done such a good job of kind of moving
10:58
Speaker 2: drug development up the curve to the point where they
11:00
Speaker 2: were now doing really good science and a really good
11:06
Speaker 2: job with clinical trials, and they still maintained the ability
11:10
Speaker 2: to do it fast and to do it fairly and expensively.
11:12
Speaker 2: The major farmers recognized this. Now, if you look at
11:16
Speaker 2: biocoms membership, only about five percent of our membership is
11:20
Speaker 2: major pharma, and then you've got mid size pharmaceutical companies
11:27
Speaker 2: which have one or two products and they're trying to
11:30
Speaker 2: build that pipeline. And then below that, you know, the
11:35
Speaker 2: bottom seventy five percent or hundred employees or less. And
11:39
Speaker 2: so what we realized was that the mid size pharma
11:43
Speaker 2: companies that are members and the smaller companies also knew
11:47
Speaker 2: about China, but they didn't know what to do about it.
11:51
Speaker 2: And so we came to them and said, look, who's
11:53
Speaker 2: interested in China. And the first meeting that we held
11:56
Speaker 2: about this was actually at luncheon at Bio in Boston,
12:03
Speaker 2: and we just wanted to understand kind of what everybody
12:06
Speaker 2: was thinking about this, and we we facilitated a discussion
12:09
Speaker 2: about that, and three months later we invited a group
12:12
Speaker 2: of people members whoever is interested in in understanding China,
12:17
Speaker 2: better interested in going to China, just join this live,
12:21
Speaker 2: join us live, or join us virtually, and thirty five
12:24
Speaker 2: executives showed up to that meeting, tent of which the
12:29
Speaker 2: dates were to be able to go with us to
12:31
Speaker 2: China after that. So it was a huge amount of interest,
12:35
Speaker 2: but just no understanding about how to go about it.
12:38
Speaker 2: I mean, these are folks that thought, I'll just buy
12:40
Speaker 2: a ticket to Beijing and so, and they would have
12:43
Speaker 2: been wrong because Beijing is probably not the first place
12:45
Speaker 2: you want to go if you're going to China, you
12:48
Speaker 2: probably want to start in Shanghai. But we we wanted
12:53
Speaker 2: to help them understand what is what's your criteria for
12:57
Speaker 2: engaging with China and that is what they needed support
13:01
Speaker 2: ones coming up with a plan for that. And so
13:04
Speaker 2: if it was looking at drugs that they could license,
13:08
Speaker 2: in that case, was the what's the indication, what's the modality,
13:12
Speaker 2: what stage are you looking for, and what kind of
13:15
Speaker 2: deal terms are you interested in? And are you interested
13:20
Speaker 2: in We have a bunch of folks that were interested
13:21
Speaker 2: in pre clinical work or manufacturing, and then we had
13:25
Speaker 2: a pretty substantive group that was interested in clinical trials
13:28
Speaker 2: and in particular the investigator initiated trials, which are run
13:33
Speaker 2: outside of the Chinese FDA in such a way that
13:39
Speaker 2: they're incredibly fast and very inexpensive and a great way
13:44
Speaker 2: to determine proof of concept in first and human So,
13:49
Speaker 2: I mean, we can get as wonky about this as
13:51
Speaker 2: you want. It's fascinating to me. But that's the reason
13:54
Speaker 2: folks wanted to head over there, and so we ended
13:58
Speaker 2: up with ten companies that went with us for various
14:02
Speaker 2: reasons of which I just listed.
14:05
Speaker 1: I want to zoom out, but I'm actually going to
14:06
Speaker 1: zoom in first only because you mentioned I's at the
14:09
Speaker 1: end there and I think. You know, I was sitting
14:12
Speaker 1: in a policymaker meeting yesterday and a VC brought up
14:16
Speaker 1: that without an I, the company was going under and
14:19
Speaker 1: would have never had the capital to get through it.
14:23
Speaker 1: They've come up in other places. What is it about
14:27
Speaker 1: that you saw? And these I ts that do make
14:31
Speaker 1: them so fast or so affordable, and they the proof
14:34
Speaker 1: of concept happens, And is there an I in the
14:40
Speaker 1: US that we should be considering? Is there a parallel there?
14:46
Speaker 1: These these its keep coming up, so I wonder if
14:48
Speaker 1: you can just dig a little deeper there.
14:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, I mean ultimately at the end
14:52
Speaker 2: of this conversation that's me where's is going? And really
14:56
Speaker 2: we need to be thinking about how to compete better,
15:00
Speaker 2: and in doing that we need to learn from what
15:02
Speaker 2: China's doing. What we saw with regard to these its
15:07
Speaker 2: is that prior to the IT, there's this foundational network
15:12
Speaker 2: that exists of these cohorts of patients that are trial
15:19
Speaker 2: ready and so the government has paid to have anybody
15:24
Speaker 2: that has cancer diagnosed of any type to get full workups.
15:29
Speaker 2: And this is all the testing and imaging that they
15:32
Speaker 2: need to do any type of genomics work that they
15:34
Speaker 2: need to do, and they create these large fifteen twenty
15:38
Speaker 2: thousand person cohorts that are now trial ready, and so
15:42
Speaker 2: when you have a trial that gets tied up, they
15:45
Speaker 2: can draw from that cohort very rapidly. Whereas in the US,
15:51
Speaker 2: what we tend to do is we set up the
15:53
Speaker 2: clinical trial, we set up different sites around the United
15:56
Speaker 2: States so that we can enroll as fast as possible,
16:00
Speaker 2: but we're waiting for the patients to come to those
16:04
Speaker 2: particular physicians and we pick the best ones and the
16:07
Speaker 2: ones that see the most patients, but it still takes
16:09
Speaker 2: months to achieve this. By having these cohorts, they're able
16:13
Speaker 2: to draw these patients down immediately and start testing. The
16:17
Speaker 2: other thing that's very important about it is it's proof
16:19
Speaker 2: of concept. So this is not something that you would
16:22
Speaker 2: take to an I and D with the FDA. It's
16:27
Speaker 2: also not something that you would utilize for an I
16:29
Speaker 2: and D in China. It's just not scientifically rigorous enough
16:35
Speaker 2: for that from a regulatory perspective. But it does provide
16:39
Speaker 2: excellent scientific proof of concept for what you're trying to do.
16:44
Speaker 2: And if your goal is to try to decipher between
16:49
Speaker 2: twenty different by specifics that you have for a particular application.
16:54
Speaker 2: You're able to put those into multiple IT trials with
16:59
Speaker 2: five patients each, get a quick take on it, and
17:03
Speaker 2: then make a decision about where you want to go.
17:05
Speaker 1: I think this is critically important, and I love the
17:08
Speaker 1: way you delineated this is not phase one in the
17:14
Speaker 1: way we think of clinical trials foreign I and D submission.
17:20
Speaker 1: It's almost a separate process of is there anything here,
17:25
Speaker 1: and then I'm willing to go like it's a pass
17:28
Speaker 1: fail course before we got to go and get an
17:30
Speaker 1: A plus from the FDA or from another regulator. And
17:33
Speaker 1: I think sometimes in this conversation about China, we've collapsed
17:37
Speaker 1: it all into one, and I think it's really important
17:39
Speaker 1: to call out no, no, there's a whole separate stream here,
17:43
Speaker 1: and that that piece about patient registry and being ready,
17:47
Speaker 1: being trial ready, that what China has developed is a
17:51
Speaker 1: way to pass fail before we get into the rigorous
17:55
Speaker 1: grading of just how quality safety efficacy is. So I like,
17:59
Speaker 1: I think think it's important that people take away from
18:01
Speaker 1: this that the data coming out of those IITs and
18:04
Speaker 1: the data being submitted to the FDA are different, but
18:09
Speaker 1: it does enable you to fail faster, which in our
18:12
Speaker 1: line of work is the name of the game.
18:14
Speaker 2: There's just so many reasons why this is a good
18:18
Speaker 2: idea that we should be capturing and learning from and
18:21
Speaker 2: somehow incorporating into what we can do with our regulatory
18:25
Speaker 2: in the United States. Because if you look at drug pricing,
18:32
Speaker 2: the largest contributor to drug pricing in terms of the
18:35
Speaker 2: cost of developing a drug, which everybody's always talking about
18:38
Speaker 2: it's a billion dollars, is two billion dollars. It's a
18:40
Speaker 2: lot of money. The bulk of that cost comes from
18:43
Speaker 2: clinical trials. And if you can kill drugs earlier and
18:48
Speaker 2: really focus on the best ones and moving those forward,
18:52
Speaker 2: you're going to save a ton of money. And whether
18:55
Speaker 2: it's IRA or whatever, that's shy. I need a spotlight
19:00
Speaker 2: on the on the supply chain costs that we have
19:03
Speaker 2: as an industry. You know, the PBMs need to own
19:06
Speaker 2: their piece, the insurance companies need to own their piece,
19:09
Speaker 2: and farmer needs to own its piece too. And we
19:11
Speaker 2: can own that piece if we have the regulatory setup
19:15
Speaker 2: that allows us to do these to kill drugs sooner,
19:19
Speaker 2: get to the drugs that work, and not only not
19:22
Speaker 2: only makes it cheaper, but it allows us to deliver
19:27
Speaker 2: drugs to patients with unmet medical needs faster.
19:30
Speaker 1: It's sort of a paradox about mfn IRA. You know,
19:36
Speaker 1: the the phenomenal goals of these are making medicines more
19:40
Speaker 1: accessible and affordable for Americans, leaving aside that it ignores
19:44
Speaker 1: a lot of the health insurance reforms we need. The
19:47
Speaker 1: paradox of shutting ourselves off from the rest of the
19:50
Speaker 1: world or trying to race to the bottom through mfn
19:54
Speaker 1: is we'll actually make the stuff more expensive. So at
19:57
Speaker 1: a time when we're saying we want to drive down
19:59
Speaker 1: these costs, we're also saying we're floating ideas like, oh,
20:04
Speaker 1: but you can't go to China and do these and
20:07
Speaker 1: fail fast and kill these drugs before you've had to
20:10
Speaker 1: invest hundreds of millions of dollars in them. So I've
20:13
Speaker 1: always thought that's a bit of a paradox that in theory,
20:16
Speaker 1: these policies aimed at driving down cost through isolationism will
20:21
Speaker 1: in turn actually drive up the cost of bringing a
20:24
Speaker 1: new medicine to market.
20:25
Speaker 2: We had as a really good point. I appreciate that,
20:30
Speaker 2: and we you and I had a discussion at JP
20:34
Speaker 2: Morgan when we did that panel together, and you'd ask
20:39
Speaker 2: a question and my take on was that for a researcher,
20:42
Speaker 2: for scientists, for small company, you'll go anywhere in the
20:45
Speaker 2: world to find the resources to solve a problem, especially
20:50
Speaker 2: when it means you're going to be able to deliver
20:53
Speaker 2: a solution into a patient who doesn't have a treatment currently.
20:59
Speaker 2: And that's what a lot of us biotech entrepreneurs is
21:03
Speaker 2: exactly that. And I met I met a kid as
21:06
Speaker 2: part of this trip named Derek. He was a George
21:12
Speaker 2: He was at Duke Total Duke, a huge basketball fan.
21:16
Speaker 2: Then he went to Georgetown to get his MD, and
21:20
Speaker 2: from there he went to Wharton got MBA. This is
21:24
Speaker 2: a super smart kid, and we had a great conversation.
21:28
Speaker 2: We happened to be in Shanghai and he was on
21:31
Speaker 2: my panel and he worked for a company called Candid,
21:36
Speaker 2: which probably familiar with, was just sold for two two
21:39
Speaker 2: billion dollars. He had done all of this and decided
21:44
Speaker 2: that the way he could be most effective was if
21:47
Speaker 2: he ran this facility for Candid, which is located in
21:51
Speaker 2: San Diego and in Shanghai, and he was the general
21:54
Speaker 2: manager for the Shanghai operation. He happened to speak Chinese,
21:59
Speaker 2: but he grew up in the United States and he said,
22:02
Speaker 2: you know what, I want to solve big problems, and
22:06
Speaker 2: I'm going to work with Ken Song and do that.
22:08
Speaker 2: And the way I can be most effective is by
22:11
Speaker 2: being in Shanghai and running these trials. He had eleven
22:15
Speaker 2: clinical trials going on, seven of which were investigator initiated trials,
22:20
Speaker 2: four of which were I in D's for the Chinese
22:23
Speaker 2: government because they were going to be developing those drugs
22:26
Speaker 2: for the Chinese population. And it's just a story about
22:31
Speaker 2: how solving unmet medical needs for patients is something that's
22:37
Speaker 2: a worldwide effort and we need to keep that in
22:40
Speaker 2: mind that we're not going to be as effective if
22:44
Speaker 2: we're not thinking that way. When it comes to manufacturing
22:47
Speaker 2: and commercialization, okay, you can have incentives that you can
22:53
Speaker 2: bring to the table to encourage manufacturing in different countries.
22:57
Speaker 2: Those incentives may come in the form of a carrot
23:01
Speaker 2: to try to encourage you to bring manufacturing there, or
23:04
Speaker 2: make mny come in the form of a cudgel where
23:07
Speaker 2: they're going to beat you if you're manufacturing there, there's
23:10
Speaker 2: going to be a problem. But no matter no matter which,
23:14
Speaker 2: when you go down to the level of basic research
23:18
Speaker 2: and figuring out how to solve these problems. Scientists really
23:22
Speaker 2: are passionate about what they're trying to do, and they'll
23:25
Speaker 2: go anywhere in the world to find those resources.
23:26
Speaker 1: Well, let's let's stay in Shanghai. All right, you get there,
23:30
Speaker 1: What are some of what stood out to you, what
23:34
Speaker 1: surprised you, What are some key takeaways for those of
23:37
Speaker 1: us who have never been, you know, what, what was
23:39
Speaker 1: it like?
23:40
Speaker 2: So the the first thing is that you notice that
23:44
Speaker 2: is amazing is when you're on your approach to Shanghai Airport. Unfortunately,
23:52
Speaker 2: it was a clear day and you look out at
23:54
Speaker 2: the at the at the harbor there there are hundreds
23:59
Speaker 2: of cargo ships. I'd never seen so many cargo ships.
24:04
Speaker 2: They have a couple of cargo ships going in and
24:07
Speaker 2: out of that Shanghai port every single day. And you
24:12
Speaker 2: compare that to a busy port like Long Beach or
24:15
Speaker 2: Seattle has just a handful that going out. So that
24:19
Speaker 2: was the first thing that I noticed, like, oh my gosh,
24:22
Speaker 2: there's so many cargo ships there. And if you think
24:25
Speaker 2: about it, we've been sending manufacturing to China for fifty
24:29
Speaker 2: some years and this is all the rest, this is
24:32
Speaker 2: all the result of that. And the top ten ports
24:37
Speaker 2: from manufacturing and just tonnage of cargo. They're all in Asia,
24:44
Speaker 2: and so it shouldn't be a surprise because we kind
24:46
Speaker 2: of created that we developed here now. So that was
24:48
Speaker 2: the first thing that I noticed was was just landing
24:51
Speaker 2: in Shanghai and seeing the incredible industrialization that it occurred there.
24:57
Speaker 2: And then as you're driving into Shape High from the airport,
25:04
Speaker 2: you can't but notice that there's buildings along the way
25:08
Speaker 2: that have all the major pharma logos on them prominently displayed,
25:15
Speaker 2: whether the manufacturing operations, whether they're research and development locations.
25:20
Speaker 1: So it's like coming in fromfo or driving it's the
25:24
Speaker 1: same thing.
25:24
Speaker 2: Okay, I could be driving through Oyster Point in South
25:28
Speaker 2: San Francisco and it's this You're seeing the same thing.
25:33
Speaker 2: There is a huge presence by Parma there, and you know,
25:36
Speaker 2: it's not really a surprise because we've known for the
25:39
Speaker 2: last five to ten years that there's this three hundred
25:44
Speaker 2: and fifty billion dollar patent cliff that pharma is now
25:48
Speaker 2: dealing with is going to be dealing with, and so
25:52
Speaker 2: they're looking all over for like, how are we going
25:54
Speaker 2: to replace these drugs that are going off patent, And
25:59
Speaker 2: this is one of the solutions. They're doing deals everywhere,
26:03
Speaker 2: and it just turns out that the Chinese that's kind
26:07
Speaker 2: of simultaneous with this patent cliff. The Chinese biotech sector
26:12
Speaker 2: has grown to the point where it is ready to
26:15
Speaker 2: do deals. And that's been a combination of things that
26:19
Speaker 2: have happened in China, including the five year Plans, which
26:23
Speaker 2: which specify that biotech is going to be a major
26:27
Speaker 2: investment area and growth area for the economy. But it
26:31
Speaker 2: also has a lot to do with how they manage
26:36
Speaker 2: that biotech economy in China if you look at just
26:41
Speaker 2: the sheer number of companies that are there. I'll take
26:46
Speaker 2: a moment and just say that we went to a
26:50
Speaker 2: We went to a kind of bizarre market called ap market,
26:57
Speaker 2: and it's a couple hundred stalls. They had. Within those stalls,
27:03
Speaker 2: they only sell like twelve things. So you're either buying luggage,
27:05
Speaker 2: or you're buying electronics, or you're buying some clothing, or
27:11
Speaker 2: you know, there's very few things. So they have optometrists there,
27:15
Speaker 2: and so in these couple hundred you basically have fifteen
27:19
Speaker 2: or twenty stalls that are doing exactly the same thing.
27:22
Speaker 2: They're selling the exact same electronics, they're selling the exact
27:26
Speaker 2: same clothing, and so how do these people compete? I mean,
27:29
Speaker 2: they have something in China and in the five year
27:33
Speaker 2: plant called involution, and involution is all about supporting all
27:39
Speaker 2: of these different companies and just letting them battle it
27:42
Speaker 2: out and the winner takes all. So you've got these
27:46
Speaker 2: stalls at the ap market, They're all selling the same stuff,
27:49
Speaker 2: and it's like who can be better at selling this
27:52
Speaker 2: exact same this exact same equipment or clothing or luggage,
28:00
Speaker 2: and so the best rise to the top, the ones
28:03
Speaker 2: who figured out how to do it. And the same
28:05
Speaker 2: is true in biotechnology there the government is very generous
28:10
Speaker 2: in supporting all of these biotech companies. And at one
28:14
Speaker 2: point we asked how many biotech companies are there in
28:17
Speaker 2: China and the estimates we got were anywhere from six
28:20
Speaker 2: thousand to ten thousand, three hundred and eighty two, which
28:24
Speaker 2: was an official number given to us by one agency.
28:28
Speaker 2: So we really don't really know. But how do you
28:30
Speaker 2: support that many companies? Well, they basically, through involution, they
28:34
Speaker 2: support all of them and they let them battle it out.
28:37
Speaker 2: And that is something that it's difficult to compete with.
28:43
Speaker 2: Part of who China is, and it's part of why
28:46
Speaker 2: they've risen so quickly and why they're now a player
28:50
Speaker 2: in the biotech industry.
28:51
Speaker 1: It's for a future conversation. It would be interesting to
28:54
Speaker 1: juxtapose that with just a little further up the Pacific.
28:57
Speaker 1: I know you've had some good experience in Japan. We've
29:01
Speaker 1: been there a lot, and sort of their cultural focus
29:05
Speaker 1: on harmony. It may not be the exact opposite of involution,
29:10
Speaker 1: but it's certainly very different in terms of where entrepreneurships
29:16
Speaker 1: comes from culturally. How was your reception in Shanghai and
29:22
Speaker 1: how were you welcomed? Do people see this as a
29:26
Speaker 1: two way partnership.
29:27
Speaker 2: They did, and we were very fortunate. We had we
29:33
Speaker 2: had bankers helping us set up meetings, we had law
29:37
Speaker 2: firms that were based in Shanghai helping us set up meetings.
29:41
Speaker 2: And then we had a political handler that works with
29:45
Speaker 2: a lot of congress folks that that had been there
29:50
Speaker 2: many times and could could connect us with government oriented
29:54
Speaker 2: organizations that were supporting the biotech industry. And again we
29:58
Speaker 2: were trying to learn as much as we could, and
30:02
Speaker 2: so we met with a kind of a trade organization
30:06
Speaker 2: called Sabida that supports a lot of biotechs, and we
30:09
Speaker 2: got to meet with all of those biotechs and kind
30:11
Speaker 2: of understand what their needs are and how they would
30:14
Speaker 2: want to engage with companies in California or partners in California.
30:18
Speaker 2: We also met with a similar group of investors, and
30:22
Speaker 2: it was interesting to meet with the investors because they
30:25
Speaker 2: are solely focused on investing in Chinese companies at this point.
30:29
Speaker 2: We were trying to see if there was any interest
30:31
Speaker 2: in investing in US based companies and there just really
30:35
Speaker 2: isn't at this moment because they just see it as
30:37
Speaker 2: a difficult time to be trying to get into the
30:40
Speaker 2: United States and invest, but super friendly and very much
30:48
Speaker 2: selling China at all times. Everybody there is fully in
30:53
Speaker 2: line with the Chinese government saying we want to be
30:57
Speaker 2: a player in biotechnology, We're going to invent, we're going
31:02
Speaker 2: to invest in the entire supply chain, and we want
31:05
Speaker 2: to be one of the best in the world at
31:08
Speaker 2: this and we want people to know that we're here
31:10
Speaker 2: and that we're open for business.
31:11
Speaker 1: One of the conversations around China is what is missing
31:16
Speaker 1: in that value chain and sort of the last link.
31:19
Speaker 1: I think many folks would agree with is a truly
31:23
Speaker 1: global multinational out of China that is going to do
31:28
Speaker 1: clinical trials all around the world. They don't seem to
31:31
Speaker 1: have cracked their own version of Pfizer or MRK or
31:34
Speaker 1: what have you. Did you pick up on that? Is
31:38
Speaker 1: that something they're working toward. Is that something they want?
31:41
Speaker 1: Do they want be one to be a global player
31:46
Speaker 1: or do they seem content with we've mastered the biotech
31:50
Speaker 1: side of it.
31:51
Speaker 2: You all have.
31:52
Speaker 1: Those multinationals and they seem to be coming in and
31:55
Speaker 1: moving assets forward. Did you pick up on that missing link?
31:58
Speaker 1: Because it's something we talk about a lot here.
32:00
Speaker 2: There's definitely a desire to do that. They If you
32:05
Speaker 2: think about what the Chinese are really good at, it's
32:09
Speaker 2: developing processes for manufacturing and processes for driving science forward,
32:18
Speaker 2: which is why they're so good. Well, they're such a
32:20
Speaker 2: good partner at iterative processes. Let's produce a bispecific in
32:27
Speaker 2: thirty different flavors until we find the one that really works,
32:32
Speaker 2: and they're going to be really great at doing that.
32:36
Speaker 2: There is a desire to take that next step and
32:40
Speaker 2: be a global player in the space where they are
32:44
Speaker 2: looking at selling their drugs into the US based market,
32:48
Speaker 2: which is the largest market in the world. Fifty percent
32:53
Speaker 2: of the revenue and on drugs in the worldwide comes
32:57
Speaker 2: out of the United States. So if you're if you're
32:59
Speaker 2: a PLA, they're like a Hangrui in China, you're going
33:02
Speaker 2: to want to bring drugs to the US. They're at
33:05
Speaker 2: that point right now where they're looking at what they're
33:08
Speaker 2: really good at, which is developing drugs and manufacturing them
33:13
Speaker 2: and working in partnership, and that's where you're seeing all
33:16
Speaker 2: the deals happen right now. It's that stage, but there's
33:19
Speaker 2: definitely an appetite to want to get to the point
33:24
Speaker 2: where they're selling their drugs to the United States. And
33:26
Speaker 2: keep in mind, you know the United States is three
33:28
Speaker 2: hundred million people. Their middle class in China is three
33:33
Speaker 2: hundred million people. So they've got just as big a
33:36
Speaker 2: market in China that they can go after, but they
33:40
Speaker 2: don't have the the same pricing. It's going to be
33:43
Speaker 2: like anybody else that's trying to sell in Europe versus
33:46
Speaker 2: US versus elsewhere. You're going to have a different pricing
33:49
Speaker 2: based on what the local economy is going to allow.
33:54
Speaker 2: But there's an appetite to do that. The other thing
33:57
Speaker 2: that's interesting is that they haven't. You know, as you
34:01
Speaker 2: move up the food chain, you tend to want to
34:03
Speaker 2: give up the stuff that's behind you. So the US
34:06
Speaker 2: is really good at this, like we've gotten the point like, hey,
34:08
Speaker 2: we're developing this, let's manufactured somewhere else. The Chinese don't
34:13
Speaker 2: want to give up any of it. They want to
34:14
Speaker 2: continue manufacturing the choch keys that are sitting in our
34:18
Speaker 2: garage and everything else, in addition to moving up the
34:23
Speaker 2: food chain and manufacturing iPhones and drugs. You know, at
34:30
Speaker 2: the highest level.
34:32
Speaker 1: That is I need to sit with that for a moment,
34:35
Speaker 1: because that is interesting. You know, we would just say, okay,
34:37
Speaker 1: as you naturally work on harder and more advanced stuff,
34:41
Speaker 1: you let the easy stuff go. And they just they
34:44
Speaker 1: want to do it all, and which is probably a
34:47
Speaker 1: good segue. I mean, they clearly have ambitions that are
34:50
Speaker 1: driven by government, which has led to this moment in
34:54
Speaker 1: US policy of what do we do that we are
34:59
Speaker 1: no longer are necessarily going to always lead the world
35:03
Speaker 1: in new drug development. And so one of the hot
35:05
Speaker 1: topics right now is the concept of adding biotech to
35:10
Speaker 1: this restrictive what we call the Coins Act list and
35:14
Speaker 1: should we limit the ability of US companies or US
35:17
Speaker 1: investors to engage in China, well intentioned or not. How
35:22
Speaker 1: do you use what you saw in China the appetite
35:26
Speaker 1: the panel you were on two years ago, where everyone's saying,
35:29
Speaker 1: I'm doing stuff in China, how do you reconcile that?
35:33
Speaker 1: And and do you think we need what policies do
35:37
Speaker 1: you think we need to best navigate the current moment
35:41
Speaker 1: we're in?
35:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, you know. I just got off
35:45
Speaker 2: NSCEB Emerging Biotech Yeah Mission meeting, and I got to
35:54
Speaker 2: thinking about generally what they're doing is two things. They
36:00
Speaker 2: got a lot going on, and it is very well intentioned.
36:03
Speaker 2: I think they've done amazing work and it basically falls
36:05
Speaker 2: into two categories, though one is kind of protectionist measures
36:10
Speaker 2: against China, and then the second is investment in the
36:15
Speaker 2: US bioliteracy workforce, developments, nih sbi R funding and the
36:24
Speaker 2: second one I think we can all get on board with.
36:26
Speaker 2: But that's been the more troubling piece for them, is
36:29
Speaker 2: trying to get more investment. The first part, I think
36:33
Speaker 2: they've had some success. And whether you agree with biosecure
36:38
Speaker 2: or not, the Congress and the current administration believes that's
36:43
Speaker 2: the right way to go right now to try to
36:46
Speaker 2: improve things for US as an economy and to compete
36:51
Speaker 2: from the perspective of biotech in this particular sector. And
36:57
Speaker 2: I think that I think it's well intentioned, but I
36:59
Speaker 2: think and in some cases it goes a little too far.
37:03
Speaker 2: And to create blacklists UH for companies is difficult because
37:08
Speaker 2: there's such a big gray area there. And I think
37:11
Speaker 2: that I haven't seen any evidence specific to companies that
37:16
Speaker 2: are acting poorly or working with the Chinese UH government specifically.
37:23
Speaker 2: But I know that we need to be careful about
37:25
Speaker 2: this and thoughtful as we go into different deals that
37:29
Speaker 2: we're doing. And I think that's the most important thing
37:32
Speaker 2: is that we have a group. Whether it's CIFIUS with
37:36
Speaker 2: with with investments coming into the US or whether it's
37:40
Speaker 2: investments going out, we need to be very thoughtful and
37:45
Speaker 2: do our diligence on each one of those deals and
37:48
Speaker 2: understand why is this being done, what's happening, what's the
37:53
Speaker 2: what's the best way to move forward? Does this deal
37:55
Speaker 2: really good for the company and for the country, and
37:59
Speaker 2: and and and just be thoughtful about about how we're
38:01
Speaker 2: doing that as part of a part of looking.
38:03
Speaker 1: At that is one of your takeaways from China that
38:08
Speaker 1: they're a net positive to the ecosystem and your membership
38:14
Speaker 1: or could you imagine a world if can you imagine
38:18
Speaker 1: a world where China is taken out of your membership's
38:22
Speaker 1: drug development plans.
38:24
Speaker 2: I mean, I always see it as a I hate
38:27
Speaker 2: to be used a bunch of sports analogies, but I'm
38:28
Speaker 2: getting ready to the you know, we're in the middle
38:34
Speaker 2: of the World Cup right now, and and we want
38:38
Speaker 2: the US to win. We want to compete, and at
38:41
Speaker 2: the same time, all of these countries are coming together
38:44
Speaker 2: to promote the game of soccer throughout the world. And
38:48
Speaker 2: that's the beauty of the beautiful game is that everybody
38:52
Speaker 2: can get behind, you know, a fantastic performance on on
38:57
Speaker 2: the pitch, but we also will win. And and I
39:02
Speaker 2: see this as similar in that we want to we
39:05
Speaker 2: want to compete, we want to win, and at the
39:08
Speaker 2: same time, we want to work together and we want
39:10
Speaker 2: to cooperate to do great things for the human condition
39:15
Speaker 2: that can't be done unless we do work together. No,
39:18
Speaker 2: I think that, I mean, I think that that's that's
39:20
Speaker 2: an important aspect of what I see as this kind
39:24
Speaker 2: of tightrope that we're walking in terms of wanting to
39:28
Speaker 2: be supportive of of biomedical research worldwide, focus on problems
39:34
Speaker 2: together and competing with each other.
39:37
Speaker 1: Well, I would say in some of the conversations, I
39:40
Speaker 1: the national security element of this is critically important. But
39:44
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, this entire industry in
39:47
Speaker 1: every country is working towards something for patients, and sometimes
39:52
Speaker 1: in this debate, I think we do lose track of that.
39:54
Speaker 1: I'm going to try out my own World Cup analogy
39:56
Speaker 1: on you. Try that. I'm trying this around Washington. We'll
40:00
Speaker 1: see what you think of it. We're in the World Cup.
40:04
Speaker 1: And if we were to pursue policies that say, look,
40:08
Speaker 1: US biotech, you can't use China US investors, you can't
40:11
Speaker 1: invest in China US pharma, you can't license deals out
40:14
Speaker 1: of China. In imagining that world, we're basically saying, you know,
40:21
Speaker 1: in my view, China's on the team and they're just
40:25
Speaker 1: passing the ball in perfectly. So many times they are
40:29
Speaker 1: just the assist King and the US scores. I mean,
40:33
Speaker 1: when we license something in ninety percent of the value
40:37
Speaker 1: created when UCB buys a company stays here in the US,
40:42
Speaker 1: so Our soccer team right now is great. The US
40:45
Speaker 1: is winning. We do have a competitor, but China is
40:48
Speaker 1: actually on our team and is feeding us all these assists.
40:51
Speaker 1: If we shut that down, let's remember that China can
40:55
Speaker 1: still play on the European team, and can play on
40:57
Speaker 1: the Japanese team, and they can play. The rest of
40:59
Speaker 1: the world world will have access to this incredible ecosystem
41:02
Speaker 1: in China and we wouldn't, and it would It's hard
41:06
Speaker 1: to imagine the US winning when the rest of the
41:09
Speaker 1: world can have this great player. I don't know. I'm
41:12
Speaker 1: still working on that analogy, but I'm curious what you think.
41:16
Speaker 2: I like it, and and and and where it's going
41:20
Speaker 2: is that China is a free agent. They're willing to
41:23
Speaker 2: work with everybody. They're very open. That attitude is the
41:28
Speaker 2: attitude of someone who's trying to be the best, the
41:31
Speaker 2: attitude of someone who's who's who's currently leading takes. You know,
41:37
Speaker 2: that's a different attitude sometimes and sometimes it's not the
41:40
Speaker 2: right attitude. And I'll jump into the next sports analogy
41:43
Speaker 2: because I think this is fitting based on what just happened,
41:47
Speaker 2: and that was are you a Knicks fan?
41:49
Speaker 1: I think we all have to be Knicks fans. Otherwise
41:51
Speaker 1: people will yell at you on the street. So yes,
41:53
Speaker 1: for the purposes at this moment, I'm a Next fan.
41:56
Speaker 2: At this moment. At this moment, we're all Knicks fans.
41:59
Speaker 2: And when you watch that series, you realize that the
42:03
Speaker 2: Spurs led virtually every single game at some point, in
42:07
Speaker 2: some cases by huge amounts, and yet they lost. And
42:11
Speaker 2: so they got to that second half and they got
42:13
Speaker 2: to the fourth quarter, and you have to ask yourself
42:16
Speaker 2: what were they thinking. Were they playing to win or
42:19
Speaker 2: were they playing not to lose? And I think in
42:23
Speaker 2: some ways we're playing not to lose. The US is
42:28
Speaker 2: number one in biomedical research in the world right now,
42:31
Speaker 2: and China is really working hard to catch up. They
42:34
Speaker 2: are playing to win and with and if you put
42:38
Speaker 2: in protectionist measures, you and you are like coins and
42:45
Speaker 2: like biosecure, and you're saying, you know, we're going to
42:47
Speaker 2: be conservative about this, We're going to try to slow
42:50
Speaker 2: other people down. We're no longer playing to win, We're
42:53
Speaker 2: playing to not lose.
42:56
Speaker 1: That that's the analogy that is terrip. Let's be the next.
43:00
Speaker 2: Let's not be the Spurs, Let's be the next. Let's
43:03
Speaker 2: be the next. And if you think about it, the
43:05
Speaker 2: way to play to win is to is to fund
43:09
Speaker 2: NIH catalyze innovation fund SBR and s tt R, really
43:15
Speaker 2: apply the money that we need to apply here to
43:18
Speaker 2: make things happen. And and when we talk about moonshots
43:21
Speaker 2: and we say, hey, you know this is a good
43:22
Speaker 2: thing to do a moonshot, Well apply moonshot to the
43:25
Speaker 2: whole industry, advanced manufacturing technologies, early phase first and human trials,
43:33
Speaker 2: fixing the regulatory system. You know, Uh, Congressman Alcincloss, we
43:39
Speaker 2: were giving him a lot of support on this FDA
43:42
Speaker 2: reform that he has for early phage clinical trials. It's
43:46
Speaker 2: a very good plan. We spend a lot of time
43:48
Speaker 2: with them talking about it, and I think it's the
43:50
Speaker 2: right it's the right thing to do. But it's it's
43:52
Speaker 2: also about playing to win, and I think that's got
43:56
Speaker 2: to be that's got it, that's got to be the
43:58
Speaker 2: best approach. I I love that.
44:01
Speaker 1: Two bonus questions. You've been very generous with your time,
44:04
Speaker 1: so we'll we'll keep them tight. One fear we've heard
44:07
Speaker 1: is that the US might lose its muscle memory to
44:12
Speaker 1: develop new medicines. Do you think that's a real concern.
44:16
Speaker 1: If the let's say the NIH stays funded at forty
44:19
Speaker 1: plus billion a year, maybe it takes a haircut here
44:21
Speaker 1: and there. As long as we've got the NIH, we
44:24
Speaker 1: always have the muscle memory.
44:26
Speaker 2: If you spend any time in the intellectual network that
44:30
Speaker 2: exists in university environments and both academic and research environments,
44:39
Speaker 2: you realize that that will never be the case. We
44:42
Speaker 2: just have too much ingenuity at the at the university
44:49
Speaker 2: and research systems, and we need to and we need
44:53
Speaker 2: to we need to catalyze that, we need to continue
44:56
Speaker 2: to feed it, and we need to continue to allow
45:00
Speaker 2: people from all of the world to come to our
45:02
Speaker 2: universities because that's power. You have researchers from all of
45:07
Speaker 2: the world coming to Harvard or Stanford or U SEE
45:13
Speaker 2: San Diego, and that is incredible power that we're bringing
45:19
Speaker 2: to really serious problems. I was running a company called
45:24
Speaker 2: Tika Therapeutics, and I got space, you know, tiny companies.
45:28
Speaker 2: We got space on campus at UC San Diego in
45:32
Speaker 2: the pharmacy building where the bunch of research was being done.
45:35
Speaker 2: And the thing that was really fun about that two
45:38
Speaker 2: years was that people would just come wandering down the
45:41
Speaker 2: hall and say Hey, are you a biotech company? Can
45:46
Speaker 2: I share an idea with you that I have? And
45:50
Speaker 2: that experience I was involved with five startups just didn't
45:54
Speaker 2: have anything to do with my company that came out
45:56
Speaker 2: of that experience because people would just come wandering down
45:59
Speaker 2: and ask a question and say, look, well, what do
46:00
Speaker 2: you have here, Like, let's talk about it and let's
46:04
Speaker 2: see how we can support you in that. So the
46:07
Speaker 2: intellectual network in the US is amazing and we need
46:12
Speaker 2: to continue to feed that. And it's a problem right
46:15
Speaker 2: now because the threat to NIH funding that has occurred
46:21
Speaker 2: for the last couple of years really has been problematic
46:25
Speaker 2: for the university system because the university's looking at it
46:30
Speaker 2: and saying, well, we need to plan for this. So
46:32
Speaker 2: they cut their budgets by fifteen twenty percent, and then
46:35
Speaker 2: they also cut their incoming graduate students and postdocs by
46:40
Speaker 2: fifty percent. And so that's happening across the country. And
46:44
Speaker 2: I need someone that's willing to model this out and
46:48
Speaker 2: just tell us what does this mean five years from now,
46:51
Speaker 2: when we have half as many researchers that are being
46:55
Speaker 2: supported in the US to drive technology forward, it's going
47:00
Speaker 2: to have a pretty dramatic.
47:01
Speaker 1: Effect well, and it's a good call out that even
47:04
Speaker 1: bad proposals obviously incubate. Many others championed NIH funding Congress.
47:10
Speaker 1: Both sides the alsof fit to fund it. But even
47:13
Speaker 1: the threats, even the rhetoric, even putting it in the
47:16
Speaker 1: President's budget, which oftentimes doesn't materialize, even proposing bad ideas
47:22
Speaker 1: slows down the system. Last question, you are about to
47:25
Speaker 1: play host to pretty much the whole ecosystem as Bio
47:29
Speaker 1: descends on San Diego next week. Are you ready? Is
47:34
Speaker 1: the city ready? Are you excited to be hosting next week?
47:37
Speaker 2: The city's ready. And it's interesting because the two big
47:40
Speaker 2: conversations that are happening in almost every conference, in every
47:45
Speaker 2: meeting that you have is Ai and China. And so
47:51
Speaker 2: so I'm glad that you have warmed me up nicely
47:55
Speaker 2: for next week with this call, because this has been
47:58
Speaker 2: a great conversation, and I just want to finish it
48:00
Speaker 2: by saying that the cooperation, this idea of competing and cooperating,
48:06
Speaker 2: there's some incredible opportunities for the US and China to
48:10
Speaker 2: cooperate because there's some big medical problems that exist out
48:15
Speaker 2: there that we could be focused on and utilizing our
48:19
Speaker 2: individual talents to drive solutions for humankind. And if you
48:25
Speaker 2: just think of cancer moonshots, what if we did cancer
48:29
Speaker 2: moonshot together with the Chinese, developed the drugs, did the
48:34
Speaker 2: early phase trials, cleared out the drugs that don't work,
48:37
Speaker 2: and move the ones forward that do and do it
48:40
Speaker 2: on a rapid time frame. It's going to solve problems
48:44
Speaker 2: for everybody, both Chinese, Americans and everybody else around the world.
48:48
Speaker 2: And the second, the second opportunity would be around next
48:53
Speaker 2: generation antibiotics. I mean, people don't realize that antibiotics have
48:58
Speaker 2: basically saved about two hundred million lives. It's the most
49:03
Speaker 2: critical drug when it comes to the number of lives saved.
49:06
Speaker 2: Then imagine being able to work together Chinese and US
49:11
Speaker 2: interest science is getting together and saying, let's develop that
49:14
Speaker 2: next gen antibiotics because we're going to have to do
49:17
Speaker 2: that at some point. And it's a very iterative process
49:20
Speaker 2: as well. So it's something that between you know, American
49:24
Speaker 2: ingenuity and Chinese process engineering, we could be a great team.
49:32
Speaker 1: We could be, we should be. I think that's a
49:34
Speaker 1: great spot. We're we're all about fresh perspectives. On the podcast,
49:38
Speaker 1: We're not hearing a lot of talk about cooperation, hearing
49:40
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about national security. I love that
49:44
Speaker 1: you brought this concept of there are things we could
49:46
Speaker 1: do together and we should do together. Tim, so grateful
49:50
Speaker 1: that you joined us, and hopefully this was a good
49:52
Speaker 1: warm up for talking on the big issues next week.
49:54
Speaker 2: Yeah. Always good to be with you, John.
49:57
Speaker 1: That wraps up this episode of the Making Medicine Podcast.
50:00
Speaker 1: Another huge thank you to Tim and Biocom for joining
50:03
Speaker 1: us on today's show. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube
50:05
Speaker 1: and follow us on our other channels so you don't
50:07
Speaker 1: miss upcoming conversations. Do you have thoughts on anything we
50:11
Speaker 1: discussed today and how it might impact you, your portfolio,
50:14
Speaker 1: or your company. Let us know and we might feature
50:16
Speaker 1: your comment in next week's episode. Thanks for listening, and
50:20
Speaker 1: as always, keep innovating.