Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #104 Christianity 101: Can We Trust the Gospels?

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#104 Christianity 101: Can We Trust the Gospels? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

0:18
SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone!
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When Jesus gave his iconic sermon on the mount,
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was he really on a mount or was he on a plane?
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Did he say blessed are the poor in spirit or did he say blessed
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are the poor?
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SPEAKER_01: When he healed the blind man,
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did he heal just one blind man or did he heal two blind men at
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the same time?
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SPEAKER_01: We are here today to continue our series Christianity 101.
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SPEAKER_01: The last two weeks we've asked the question, can we trust the Bible?
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I think we've answered the question with enough confusion to
0:55
suggest,
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yeah,
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probably we can.
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SPEAKER_01: So now we're going to take it another level of confusion.
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SPEAKER_01: Can we trust the Gospels?
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SPEAKER_01: Because there do seem to be
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Some competing stories occasionally in these Gospels where in
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one Gospel Jesus says
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one thing and in another Gospel he seems to say it differently
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and in a different
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SPEAKER_01: place in a different venue.
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And so can we trust the Gospels not only as works of literature
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but can we trust
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the Gospels in terms of the truth that they proclaim and the
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truth that they claim
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SPEAKER_01: to share?
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm here, Tim Wright, along with John Burgess.
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SPEAKER_01: Wow, that work he's having done.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of work.
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SPEAKER_01: They're still over there a week later.
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Longtime listeners will just be glad to know that she's not at
1:50
the dentist.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's not at the dentist this time.
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SPEAKER_01: That was a six week thing, I think.
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So anyway,
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John,
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we're going to talk a little bit about the Gospels and what's
2:02
going on.
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SPEAKER_01: And let's just remind ourselves,
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one of our key principles is we want to read the Bible as it
2:08
wants to be read.
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SPEAKER_01: That means we have to start with when the Bible was written, i.e.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: when these Gospels were written,
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the understanding of what Gospels are back then and what it
2:23
means for us today,
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SPEAKER_01: what sort of the environment
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SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright How these stories were told,
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we can't impose a 2026 understanding of literature on to first
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century documents
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SPEAKER_01: and not expect to get ourselves in trouble.
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SPEAKER_01: So we always have to ask, how were these books written?
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SPEAKER_01: What is it they were trying to say?
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SPEAKER_01: How are they saying it?
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And then that helps us come to the conclusion whether or not we
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want to trust what
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SPEAKER_01: they're teaching us.
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SPEAKER_01: And so once again,
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SPEAKER_01: Let's reiterate that these books are God-breathed,
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SPEAKER_01: meaning that when we read these stories,
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SPEAKER_01: God speaks to us,
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SPEAKER_01: God breathes life into us.
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They were written by human beings and these human beings didn't
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sit down with a
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quill in their hand and just stare off into space and their
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hands moved and wrote
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SPEAKER_01: down an entire book.
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SPEAKER_01: That's not how it happened.
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SPEAKER_01: These are stories that were stitched together
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oral stories and a community of people or a person took all of
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these stories and
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SPEAKER_01: put them into a book that could be read from beginning to end.
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And those kinds of things give us some insights then into how
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to read the Gospels
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SPEAKER_01: and what they're doing.
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SPEAKER_01: We've got some other things we can share about that as well.
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So last time we did a little bit of stuff with some science to
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just say that you
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can trust the texts of the Bible because we have enough
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manuscripts and the
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SPEAKER_01: manuscripts we have are pretty close to when the originals were written.
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SPEAKER_01: We don't have any originals,
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SPEAKER_01: but the closer you get to the originals,
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SPEAKER_01: the better,
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SPEAKER_01: the more accurate they are.
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SPEAKER_01: And we saw last week that we have some pretty good
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SPEAKER_01: There's textual evidence to suggest that the text itself can be trusted.
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SPEAKER_01: Though there may be some biases in our translations,
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SPEAKER_01: though there may be some mistranslations once in a while,
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the Bible as we have it today in most of our translations is
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pretty close to what
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SPEAKER_01: it would have been when it was first written down all those years ago.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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let's look a little bit at the science of the New Testament of
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the Gospels and then
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SPEAKER_01: we'll talk a little bit more about the theology of the Gospels.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that sounds great.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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there's when we look at the Gospels specifically and I won't
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talk a lot about
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SPEAKER_00: textual translation because we did cover that in the last podcast,
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SPEAKER_00: but you know,
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there's things that that folks look at when trying to determine
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whether what
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SPEAKER_00: happened happened and one of them is
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is the distance between the event that's being recorded and
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when it was recorded.
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And it's really important that that happens within a lifetime
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because you have the
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SPEAKER_00: opportunity for people to be eyewitnesses or know the people that are the
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SPEAKER_00: eyewitnesses.
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SPEAKER_00: And if it's within a lifetime, if there's blatant lies
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SPEAKER_00: because it's within a lifetime.
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SPEAKER_00: There's other eyewitnesses that can say,
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SPEAKER_00: look,
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SPEAKER_00: that's not that's not what happened or this is what happened.
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SPEAKER_00: Right?
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SPEAKER_00: So that time period being compressed is really important.
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We see Mark is probably being one of the earliest Gospels
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written and Mark with
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SPEAKER_00: certainly within a lifetime of the events that Mark is recording.
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SPEAKER_00: That's super important.
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Tim Wright wants to focus us on some of the inconsistencies in
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the Gospels.
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I will start us off by saying the Gospels are remarkably
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consistent in many ways,
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SPEAKER_00: having been written by different authors.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think the inconsistencies are important to talk about,
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SPEAKER_00: but also remarkable amounts of consistencies regarding the same events.
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And then I think what's really important to me is that when I
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was first looking into this is
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SPEAKER_00: Are there external sources that corroborate what's happening?
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SPEAKER_00: So on the one hand,
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SPEAKER_00: we see descriptions of life in Palestine,
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SPEAKER_00: descriptions of what's happening by the gospel writers as being accurate.
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SPEAKER_00: We can say, okay, this is what life looked like.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not like a complete fabrication.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not a
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Tim Wright- It shows insight into what the culture and life
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looked like at the time.
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SPEAKER_00: And we also see people like that are unconnected with Christianity.
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Tim Wright- Recording some of the events that happened that are
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important within Christianity.
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We see the historic the Jewish historian Josephus talking about
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Jesus and his
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SPEAKER_00: execution under pilot.
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Tim Wright- We see a Roman historian Tacitus confirming that
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Jesus was executed
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SPEAKER_00: under Pontius Pilate during Tiberius's reign.
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And these are not sources that their bias is not to promote
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Christianity or this
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SPEAKER_00: sort of fledgling,
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SPEAKER_00: highly impactful faith.
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SPEAKER_00: Their bias is to record what's happening to him at the time.
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And we see some of that stuff being accurately recorded in what
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they call external
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SPEAKER_00: collaboration.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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And I think what that external collaboration does for us is it
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roots Jesus as a
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SPEAKER_01: historical figure.
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The question is,
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is he the historic figure that the Gospel writers say he is?
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SPEAKER_01: Is he a dead Jew who was crucified,
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or is he a crucified Jewish man who was raised to life and is
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the Messiah?
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So just because we have outsiders talking about Jesus doesn't
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mean that the claims
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SPEAKER_01: of Christianity about Jesus are true.
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Just that we know that Jesus probably did exist,
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even though some will still question that.
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But there's a lot of evidence to suggest Jesus is truly a
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historical figure.
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SPEAKER_01: And now the faith questions then become important.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: let me I just want to add,
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SPEAKER_00: because this is in my notes,
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SPEAKER_00: too,
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is that when we talk about the the gospel writers living close
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to the events,
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SPEAKER_00: that sort of thing.
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SPEAKER_00: One thing that's also important,
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SPEAKER_00: and this is what,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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people that know way more than I do about studying historical
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documents called this
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SPEAKER_00: the criterion of embarrassment.
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And what one of the important things about the Gospels is we
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see it including
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SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright So,
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SPEAKER_00: for instance,
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Peter denying Jesus and the disciples fleeing is not the kind
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of details that you
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put in if you're making something up because you have some
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agenda to promote.
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They're the kind of details that you put in when you're trying
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to be an accurate
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historian of something that is cataclysmic in size that seems
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to be happening.
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SPEAKER_01: Right,
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SPEAKER_01: and if you're telling a faith story,
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SPEAKER_01: which is what the Gospels are doing,
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SPEAKER_01: you're not going to make your heroes into a bunch of bubbling idiots,
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SPEAKER_01: which is kind of what the disciples become,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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So there is a sense of authenticity to the story itself because
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it doesn't
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SPEAKER_01: ingrandize or heroize the heroes,
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SPEAKER_01: where many of the other stories that come out of that time,
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SPEAKER_01: the heroes are heroes.
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SPEAKER_01: And these guys are really flawed.
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SPEAKER_01: So I think there are a couple of things.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's my dogs.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: Don't worry.
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SPEAKER_01: They're just agreeing.
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SPEAKER_01: That was an amen for my dog, if you heard that.
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SPEAKER_01: So let's start here.
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SPEAKER_01: There's so many different ways that we can go.
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It's important to understand,
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first of all,
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that the Gospels are not biographies.
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SPEAKER_01: The purpose of a biography, for the most part,
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is simply to tell the story of the person,
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usually without much interpretation.
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SPEAKER_01: This is the life that Abraham Lincoln lived.
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SPEAKER_01: He was born here.
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SPEAKER_01: He did this.
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SPEAKER_01: He had these debates.
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SPEAKER_01: He became president.
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SPEAKER_01: He married.
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SPEAKER_01: He was shot.
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SPEAKER_01: You sort of report the facts, just the facts.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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SPEAKER_01: that doesn't mean that the author doesn't say,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: this had an impact on his life here or there,
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SPEAKER_01: but it's really the story of the person.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a biography.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a modern biography, right, Tim?
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SPEAKER_00: So it's like some people will say that the type of biography written,
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SPEAKER_00: I was just going to say this,
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SPEAKER_00: so I'm glad you brought it up,
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the type of biography that was written at the time the writers
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were writing it is
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an ancient biography that's trying to tell the significance and
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character of the
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SPEAKER_00: person,
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SPEAKER_00: not a verbatim record of what happened.
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And so in 2026,
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when I open a biography,
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I want facts and circumstances and a timeline.
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SPEAKER_00: And that wasn't what they were trying to write to here.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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And I think that's partly why we don't call them the
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biographies of Jesus.
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SPEAKER_01: We call them the gospels of Jesus.
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SPEAKER_01: And because we call them a gospel,
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SPEAKER_01: already we know that there is a certain bias built into the story.
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These writers want to assert from the very beginning that this
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Jesus is unique.
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SPEAKER_01: And we're going to tell you why he's unique.
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SPEAKER_01: And we're going to tell you stories about him.
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SPEAKER_01: We're going to tell you the stories he told.
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SPEAKER_01: This is not an ordinary biography.
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SPEAKER_01: We believe something significant about this person.
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SPEAKER_01: We believe that this is the Messiah.
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SPEAKER_01: We believe this is the Son of God.
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SPEAKER_01: We believe that Jesus is the good news.
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SPEAKER_01: Which was a Roman term, right?
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SPEAKER_01: Rome has arrived.
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SPEAKER_01: and a new world order has come.
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SPEAKER_01: And so what these stories are,
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SPEAKER_01: they're really stories of,
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SPEAKER_01: in a sense,
12:20
SPEAKER_01: a new world order that's coming as God invades planet Earth,
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SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
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SPEAKER_01: in the person of Jesus with grace and compassion and mercy.
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SPEAKER_01: So they're not really biographies.
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SPEAKER_01: They have a bias to them, and that's okay.
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SPEAKER_01: We need to recognize that.
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SPEAKER_01: They want us to believe that Jesus is who they believe Jesus to be.
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SPEAKER_01: So they're not even really
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SPEAKER_01: Sort of saying, this is what we think, what do you think?
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They're saying,
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this is what we think,
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and this is what we hope you think.
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SPEAKER_01: They have an intentionality to what they're saying about Jesus.
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SPEAKER_01: That's the first thing we want to understand.
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SPEAKER_01: Read it as it wants to be read, and they're being quite upfront.
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SPEAKER_01: So we know Matthew has a certain agenda.
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SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about Matthew's agenda.
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I'm going to compare Matthew and Luke so we understand why we
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might see differences.
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SPEAKER_01: Matthew is writing primarily to a Jewish Christian audience.
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SPEAKER_01: And so what he does is he positions Jesus as the new Moses.
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SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of his writing,
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SPEAKER_01: his book,
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SPEAKER_01: his gospel can be divided up into five sections,
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SPEAKER_01: representing the five books of the Torah,
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SPEAKER_01: Genesis,
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SPEAKER_01: Exodus,
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SPEAKER_01: Leviticus,
13:31
SPEAKER_01: Numbers,
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SPEAKER_01: Deuteronomy,
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SPEAKER_01: which were ascribed to Moses.
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You've got Moses who went up on the hill and came down with the
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Ten Commandments.
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He goes up on the hill and he gives the Beatitudes and he sort
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of reinterprets the
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Ten Commandments.
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SPEAKER_01: And so over and over again,
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what Matthew is doing is he is specifically positioning Jesus
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as the new Moses.
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SPEAKER_01: And so his stories will connect the dots for his Jewish readers.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, look how much he's like Moses.
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SPEAKER_01: Look how much he's like Moses.
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SPEAKER_01: He even has his ancestry going all the way through to Abraham,
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SPEAKER_01: who was the father of the Jewish nation.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's his agenda.
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He's taking these stories of Jesus and he's placing them within
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this Jewish
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SPEAKER_01: Christian context to help these,
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SPEAKER_01: especially these Jewish Christians.
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SPEAKER_01: See, you don't have to leave behind your Jewishness
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SPEAKER_01: Jesus comes to us from the line of Moses.
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SPEAKER_01: He is the one that Moses talked about.
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SPEAKER_01: And so he will,
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Matthew uses a lot of scripture in his gospel to help connect
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Jewish Christians to
14:46
SPEAKER_01: their heritage of Moses.
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SPEAKER_01: And of course,
14:49
the Exodus is the defining moment or the defining vision for
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the people of Israel.
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And Jesus sort of talks about this new Exodus through his death
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and resurrection.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's where Matthew's coming from.
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Luke takes those same stories and he's writing primarily to a
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non-Jewish audience.
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And what Luke wants to do is not to sort of interpret Jesus as
15:18
the new Moses.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: He wants to interpret Jesus as the new Caesar.
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SPEAKER_01: And so, first of all, his family ancestry
15:30
takes Jesus all the way to Adam to show that Jesus is a part of
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all of us and we're
15:34
SPEAKER_01: all a part of Jesus.
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SPEAKER_01: And then he roots the story of Jesus,
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SPEAKER_01: not in the Moses story,
15:39
SPEAKER_01: but in all things Roman Empire,
15:43
SPEAKER_01: starting with the birth story.
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Because Caesar was presenting himself to the world as,
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I'm the God,
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I'm the current God.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm the God.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: Son of God was his language.
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SPEAKER_01: He's the son of God.
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SPEAKER_01: He is the proclaimer of the good news.
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SPEAKER_01: He brings the Pax Romana.
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SPEAKER_01: And of course, how do they do that?
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SPEAKER_01: Through tyranny, through oppression, through taxes.
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And Rome,
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according to Luke's story,
16:12
Rome makes people go to register to be taxed.
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And then this is when this new Messiah is born in this little
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town called Bethlehem
16:22
SPEAKER_01: and isn't born with pomp and circumstance like a Roman emperor,
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SPEAKER_01: although the angels come and sing and so on.
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SPEAKER_01: But throughout then the story of Luke,
16:32
he uses language where Jesus is in opposition to the Roman
16:37
Empire and his kingdom
16:39
SPEAKER_01: is vastly different.
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Same Jesus,
16:43
same stories,
16:45
but seen through a different filter and a different audience.
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SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes
16:50
SPEAKER_01: It can seem as if Matthew and Luke contradict each other,
16:54
when in reality they're telling the same story to two different
16:57
audiences through
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SPEAKER_01: two different lenses or perspectives.
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SPEAKER_01: So,
17:03
SPEAKER_01: for example,
17:03
if we were to recast the story of Jesus today and want to speak
17:09
to people living in
17:10
SPEAKER_01: the United States of America in 2026,
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SPEAKER_01: Those Jesus stories would have a certain ambiance about them,
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a certain flavor about them that would be very different than
17:20
if you were writing
17:21
that same story of Jesus to people living in Rwanda who had
17:26
been through a genocide
17:28
SPEAKER_01: 30-40 years ago.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: Same stories, but to two very different audiences and tweaked
17:34
to say this Jesus is for you US Americans this Jesus is for you
17:38
Rwandans and here
17:40
are the touch points and that's what Matthew is doing for the
17:42
Jewish Christians so
17:44
Luke is doing for Christians living under Roman Empire and then
17:49
sometimes it seems
17:50
like they contradict each other but in reality they are shaping
17:57
their stories to
17:59
speak to two different audiences so again you've got the Sermon
18:03
on the Mount
18:05
which is Jesus being like Moses handing down the Word of God in
18:10
Luke it's the
18:12
Sermon on the Plain and it's where Jesus comes is doesn't we
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don't go up to Jesus
18:19
so to speak to the mountain Jesus comes down to us on the Plain
18:23
and Luke's Gospel
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SPEAKER_01: is far more Luke's Gospel is far more justice oriented
18:33
So for the Sermon on the Plain blessed are the poor blessed are
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those who mourn
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where Luke spiritual or Matthew spiritualizes blessed are the
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poor in spirit so
18:44
Luke has a lot of for him his gospel is you know feeding the
18:49
poor caring for those
18:51
who aren't cared for Matthew has a lot of that as well of
18:53
course but when you've
18:55
SPEAKER_01: got the Roman Empire coming in and overtaxing people
18:58
SPEAKER_01: And robbing people of their dignity,
19:00
part of what Luke wants to say is Jesus comes to restore
19:03
dignity and he comes to
19:04
SPEAKER_01: restore generosity and justice and mercy as opposed to the Roman Empire.
19:09
And so the stories just get a different slant,
19:12
a different interpretation.
19:14
And sometimes it seems as if they contradict each other,
19:16
but they're not at all.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: They're just telling the story from a different perspective.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: Mark's Gospel is probably the first of the Gospels written.
19:27
and there's some suggestion that Matthew and Luke maybe had a
19:32
copy of Mark's Gospel
19:34
or something similar as they wrote theirs so they could take
19:36
their stories and sort
19:38
SPEAKER_01: of put them to their audience.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: John's Gospel is radically different from the other three.
19:45
We call Matthew,
19:46
Mark,
19:47
and Luke synoptic Gospels because they seem to see the story
19:50
together.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: John's is just radically different because John isn't writing
19:57
SPEAKER_01: John is writing a theology of Jesus.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: And so his Jesus is very,
20:05
SPEAKER_01: very,
20:05
SPEAKER_01: he has miracles in there that Jesus doesn't do in the other ones.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: He has Jesus doing long, long discussions that sometimes seem confusing.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, I am the bread of life.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: If you eat from me, this will happen.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't, this will happen.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: And by the way, I'm this and that.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: And it gets a little confusing.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: He uses a lot of metaphor
20:25
I'm the bread of life I am the good shepherd I'm the light of
20:29
the world and so John
20:31
is speaking to a very different audience and his was probably
20:34
the last gospel
20:35
written and there are some who suggest not everybody but that
20:40
John was writing to
20:41
combat an early Christian heresy called Gnosticism that
20:47
believed that all flesh was
20:49
SPEAKER_01: evil and
20:53
that there was no way that God would have taken on human form
20:56
that Jesus was in
20:58
essence a phantom and John wants to make the argument no he was
21:05
a real person he
21:06
ate after he was resurrected he ate the sword went into his
21:11
side he bled real blood
21:14
SPEAKER_01: So John wants to make an argument that this Jesus was a real human being,
21:18
SPEAKER_01: and he doesn't have a birth story.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: He starts at the very beginning.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: In the beginning was the Word,
21:23
SPEAKER_01: the Word was with God,
21:23
SPEAKER_01: and the Word was God,
21:24
SPEAKER_01: and he wrote Jesus back in Genesis 1,
21:28
SPEAKER_01: verse 1.
21:30
So they're all writing about the same Jesus just from different
21:33
perspectives.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: So these aren't contradictions.
21:37
These are just different tellings of the story that are geared
21:42
to the audience.
21:44
And again,
21:45
this is happening in the United States of America all the time.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: You've got in some churches,
21:51
SPEAKER_01: there are pastors who are preaching right now a very political,
21:56
politicized version of the gospel to sort of fit the mood of
22:01
where they think the
22:02
SPEAKER_01: country is at.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: and the Fifth of Politics.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: There are others who are preaching a very justice oriented.
22:09
You see this a lot in our African-American churches and in
22:13
marginalized communities
22:14
SPEAKER_01: where it's really about justice and compassion and mercy.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: You see,
22:20
SPEAKER_01: if you listen to sermons that take place in suburban congregations,
22:23
they're probably going to sound different than those who live
22:26
maybe in inner city
22:27
SPEAKER_01: churches where the issues may be different.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: So it's not
22:34
It's not like this doesn't happen where we don't tell the story
22:37
of Jesus to fit the
22:38
SPEAKER_01: needs of the audience.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: I would also argue,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: however,
22:44
that just because we try to fit the needs to our audience
22:47
doesn't mean that every
22:48
SPEAKER_01: sermon about Jesus is actually capturing the whole story of Jesus.
22:52
And sometimes our politics or our theologies can get us so
22:57
narrow focus that we
22:58
SPEAKER_01: don't preach all of Jesus.
23:02
Right yeah and and that becomes a real danger especially here
23:05
in 2026 in certain
23:07
contexts but what the gospel writers are doing all of them and
23:11
this is what's
23:12
amazing even though Matthew writes to Jewish Christians Luke is
23:15
writing to those
23:16
living under Roman persecution and so on and so forth all of
23:20
them write a very
23:21
SPEAKER_01: inclusive gospel this isn't just for Jews this isn't just for God fearers
23:31
This is for the world and all of them are consistent on that
23:34
and all of them are
23:35
consistent on the fact that Jesus entered the world to do
23:38
mission now not to save
23:39
us for heaven that the kingdom of God has come now and that
23:44
we're called to live in
23:45
opposition to the forces of politics and the forces of empires
23:50
that want to rob
23:51
people of their dignity and their value that want to rob us of
23:54
justice and mercy
23:55
SPEAKER_01: they're all consistent in that yeah and
23:59
SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately,
24:00
SPEAKER_01: sometimes we miss those in our context,
24:03
SPEAKER_01: and that's been the case for 2,000 years.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: But when you look at all four Gospels,
24:08
SPEAKER_01: even though they may be written to different audiences,
24:10
SPEAKER_01: those themes are in all of them.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: And what I hear you saying,
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Tim,
24:15
SPEAKER_00: at least one of the big points,
24:16
is the Gospel writers themselves were trying to take a topic
24:24
that you cannot
24:25
SPEAKER_00: describe in human terms
24:28
SPEAKER_00: The love of God.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, okay.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: How does the love of God apply to the Jewish people at the time?
24:34
SPEAKER_00: How does the love of God apply to the non-Jewish people at the time?
24:38
And it's the same thing that's happening in every church on
24:41
every Sunday in
24:42
SPEAKER_00: whatever is facing that community or those people.
24:45
They're saying hey let's take a look at how the love of God can
24:49
can change what
24:50
SPEAKER_00: we're thinking and feeling today on this topic.
24:54
You know you've preached a sermon series after sermon series
24:57
and that's not a
24:59
that's not an attempt I don't believe by you or any other
25:02
pastor to say I'm going
25:03
to tell you everything that applies on this topic it's it's
25:06
let's take something
25:07
SPEAKER_00: that is
25:10
Culturally relevant and impressing on people's minds and hearts
25:14
and souls and see
25:15
SPEAKER_00: what God has to say about that.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: So that makes sense to me.
25:20
You also said one of the contradiction examples you gave when
25:24
we started was,
25:26
SPEAKER_00: did he heal a blind man or did he heal two blind men at that time?
25:33
SPEAKER_00: And whenever I see that kind of contradiction,
25:36
SPEAKER_00: in addition to what we've already said,
25:37
SPEAKER_00: I always think to myself,
25:38
SPEAKER_00: well,
25:40
Was the point of the story,
25:42
the number of blind men that were being healed at that moment?
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Was that the point of the story?
25:48
SPEAKER_00: Because if it was, then I'm like, well, this doesn't make sense.
25:50
But if that wasn't the point and I try to back away from my
25:55
modern attempts to
25:57
SPEAKER_00: analyze things with journalistic integrity and say,
26:00
SPEAKER_00: what is the actual point of the story?
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Then all of a sudden that kind of thing doesn't bother me anymore.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: So,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: again,
26:08
I think part of what we want to remember is that these are
26:10
ancient books written
26:12
SPEAKER_01: 2,000 years ago.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: And the writing integrity is amazing for 2,000 years ago.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: We often think of ancient people not being very smart, right?
26:24
SPEAKER_01: They don't know what we know.
26:25
But when you really dive into these books and how they're
26:29
structured and the
26:31
SPEAKER_01: nuances that they have,
26:33
You know again looking at the way that Matthew structures his
26:36
telling the story of
26:37
Jesus to correlate to the five books of Moses how Luke takes
26:42
his gospel Luke and
26:43
Acts and just hammers home and again and again and again that
26:48
the Roman Empire is
26:51
representing the forces of evil and that the kingdom of God has
26:54
come to combat that
26:55
with justice and mercy and compassion love that the writing is
26:58
just absolutely
26:59
SPEAKER_01: amazing the storytelling is amazing
27:02
SPEAKER_01: But they were not writing, this used to mean something.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: They were not writing newspaper accounts.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that means today what it used to mean, right?
27:13
SPEAKER_01: But they're not writing basically what Matthew,
27:17
SPEAKER_01: Mark,
27:18
SPEAKER_01: Luke,
27:18
SPEAKER_01: and John,
27:19
SPEAKER_01: and we don't even really think those four wrote these,
27:21
SPEAKER_01: right?
27:22
SPEAKER_01: It's possible John did, but these, remind me to come back to that.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: They're taking, either they or their communities were taking
27:32
verbal stories oral stories and stitching them together and
27:38
they would stitch them
27:39
together in a way that it would be easy to remember all of them
27:41
so imagine you
27:43
being the guy on Sunday morning getting up and you're going to
27:45
recite Matthew all
27:48
28 chapters right well there's there's got in storytelling
27:52
there are ways to
27:53
remember that there are certain words that they'll put
27:55
throughout the passage that
27:57
SPEAKER_01: would just connect you from one story to the next and so on so forth
28:02
So they're stitching all these stories together and sometimes a
28:05
story can be told
28:07
SPEAKER_01: and oh were there two guys there or were there just one?
28:11
Well you're right it doesn't matter it's not was there two or
28:15
one it's the story
28:16
that Jesus healed and so sometimes you know some of the details
28:23
may not quite be
28:24
exact but that doesn't take away from the impact of the story
28:29
and the point of the
28:29
SPEAKER_01: story
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: So they really end up not really being contradictions at all.
28:36
Sometimes they're just storytelling or it could even have been
28:39
a storytelling device,
28:41
right?
28:41
SPEAKER_01: It could be that,
28:43
SPEAKER_01: and I haven't done enough research that in the gospel where it's two,
28:46
SPEAKER_01: well,
28:46
maybe that number two is a number that's going to prompt a
28:49
second story later on.
28:51
Again,
28:51
I haven't looked at it enough,
28:53
but we got to remember that the gospels were written down.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: They were oral stories written down.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: with these various prompts in them.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: So,
29:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:03
a story of the healing of a blind man and would then sort of be
29:07
the beginning of
29:08
SPEAKER_01: several stories about Jesus healing.
29:09
Blind people are talking about being blind and eyes to see and
29:12
ears to hear and
29:13
then would probably end with another story of a blind person
29:16
being healed.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: They would have these sections
29:18
that were collated around seeing and then they'd have another
29:21
section collated
29:22
around the story of the woman who had bled out for 12 years and
29:27
the 12 year old
29:28
girl who died and how Jesus healed them both and 12 becomes
29:32
sort of the memory
29:34
SPEAKER_01: number for them.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: And so they're structured that way.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just amazing how they're put together.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: And so it could be that sometimes when you've got
29:43
Was it two or was it one that maybe it was a memory device for
29:48
the telling of the next story?
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Right?
29:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:51
Now,
29:51
in terms of who wrote the Gospels,
29:55
again,
29:55
back then we didn't have copyright stuff.
29:59
And so oftentimes you would put the name of someone important
30:08
onto your book.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: So, let's say you're Fred, the Jewish Christian.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, nobody knows who Fred is.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Fred's been a follower of Matthew for a while.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: He's been in Matthew's group.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: Matthew's been discipling people.
30:27
Matthew's been telling you all these great stories and all of
30:31
his followers.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: And Matthew passes away, but his community, his church still exists.
30:36
And Fred gets together with a bunch of buddies and says,
30:38
you know,
30:38
Matthew's gone.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: We better get these stories written down.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: So it's Fred who's writing the stories down along with his buddies,
30:46
but they put Matthew's name on it because it was Matthew's
30:49
church that they were a
30:50
SPEAKER_01: part of.
30:51
And it was his community of faith that really is responsible
30:55
for the writing of that book.
30:58
Now,
30:59
Luke might be different because Luke identifies himself as the
31:03
writer.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: We don't have Matthew identify himself.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: We don't have Mark identify himself.
31:10
So that's some of the thinking that they came out of you know
31:14
Matthew's church he
31:15
was telling all these stories and then somebody wrote him down
31:19
in his name because
31:20
he's the one who has the authority So but for you know us
31:27
mainstream guys that
31:28
aren't biblical archaeologists there is there is let's say some
31:36
discussion around
31:37
SPEAKER_00: whether Mark John Mark
31:40
Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark
31:45
Mark Mark Mark Mark
31:46
Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark
31:49
Mark Mark Mark Mark
31:49
Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark
31:52
Mark Mark Mark Mark
31:54
Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark
31:57
Mark Mark Mark Mark
31:57
Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark
32:00
Mark Mark Mark Mark
32:01
Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark Mark
32:04
Mark Mark Mark
32:10
or whether it was a community or whether it was a couple of his
32:13
contemporaries that
32:14
SPEAKER_00: wanted to credit him with telling them the stories.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Is that important to me?
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's important only in that sometimes people will raise arguments.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: How can you trust the Gospels?
32:26
SPEAKER_01: We know Mark didn't write it.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: So then it can't be valid because Mark didn't write it.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: And that's a 21st century
32:36
Um understanding of how we write things and copyright and
32:39
authorship being imposed
32:41
on an ancient system but when you understand that in those
32:46
ancient systems
32:48
sometimes the student would write the work and the teacher's
32:53
name would be put on
32:54
it that that was a legitimate way of giving street cred to your
32:58
writings and that's
33:00
SPEAKER_01: not a copyright problem that's not a
33:04
SPEAKER_01: A problem whatsoever, then it sort of takes the pressure off.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: And then you can say, like you do, well, that doesn't really matter.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: What matters is the story itself.
33:13
But there are people who will reject the Bible and reject the
33:16
Gospels because
33:17
SPEAKER_01: they'll say,
33:17
SPEAKER_01: well,
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Mark didn't write it,
33:18
SPEAKER_01: couldn't have written it.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: Matthew didn't write it, couldn't have written it, so it's invalid.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, no, it's not invalid.
33:23
It's an ancient story and it was written under ancient rules of
33:27
writing and authorship.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times books were written,
33:32
SPEAKER_01: not just for Christianity,
33:34
SPEAKER_01: but others,
33:35
SPEAKER_01: where it wasn't written by that person,
33:37
but their name was put on it because it reflected their
33:40
understanding of the world
33:42
SPEAKER_01: and their name gives it street cred.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: Let's face it,
33:46
SPEAKER_01: if my books,
33:48
SPEAKER_01: The Adventures of Toby Baxter,
33:50
SPEAKER_01: which have been influenced by Tolkien and C.S.
33:52
Lewis,
33:53
if I were able to say The Adventures of Toby Baxter,
33:56
written by J.R.R.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: Tolkien,
33:58
I'd be a multi-billionaire right now right that would have been
34:03
legitimate probably
34:04
SPEAKER_01: back in Jesus day to say I was a student of J.R.R.
34:07
Tolkien you don't know who Tim Wright is but I'm gonna write
34:10
under the the
34:12
SPEAKER_01: leadership and guidance of J.R.R.
34:14
Tolkien and back then I could have put his name on it and
34:17
nobody would have batted
34:18
an eye right but now of course we would never do that that's
34:21
plagiarism or whatever
34:25
So what it does is it lowers the temperature for Christians who
34:30
find people
34:31
SPEAKER_01: throwing darts at them and say,
34:32
SPEAKER_01: well,
34:32
SPEAKER_01: you can't trust it because Mark didn't write it.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: No, that's not the point.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: That's not how it worked back then.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: You can trust it because it came from a community of faith,
34:41
SPEAKER_01: a community of Jesus followers who,
34:43
SPEAKER_01: as you say,
34:45
SPEAKER_01: the stories come from those who were closest to the events.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: And we know,
34:52
SPEAKER_01: again,
34:52
SPEAKER_01: from studies of the way oral traditions passed down,
34:54
SPEAKER_01: that it was extremely accurate.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: So that's what gives it its validity,
35:01
SPEAKER_01: not Matthew,
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Mark,
35:03
SPEAKER_01: Luke,
35:03
SPEAKER_01: or John,
35:04
but that it comes from an oral tradition close to the events of
35:07
when they happened,
35:08
SPEAKER_01: written within the context of the Jesus followers.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
35:14
And,
35:15
and once we know that each of the books is written to a
35:18
different audience,
35:20
SPEAKER_01: and trying to emphasize a different part of Jesus,
35:23
SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
35:24
than some of those things where they seem to contradict don't
35:28
contradict anymore.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: They make far more sense.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: Indeed.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: Indeed.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: Now, does any of that prove that Jesus died and rose again?
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Sort of.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
35:43
SPEAKER_01: there's certainly a lot of people who believed it,
35:45
SPEAKER_01: and there were people who died for that belief.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: And,
35:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:50
SPEAKER_01: what are the odds of 11 guys or more dying for something they made up and
35:57
SPEAKER_01: excruciating deaths at that?
36:00
SPEAKER_01: So there's some validity to it.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, in the end, there's this thing called faith.
36:09
And I think that the faith to believe these things comes the
36:15
more we interact with them.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: It's not a decision we make.
36:19
It's the Spirit of God speaking through these stories that
36:22
warms our hearts and
36:24
SPEAKER_01: says,
36:24
SPEAKER_01: you know what,
36:26
SPEAKER_01: there's something in my soul that resonates with this.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's almost too good to be true, but it's too good not to be true.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's right.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing.
36:45
the quiet draw that the stories have on you as they kind of
36:52
wash over you.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: And I think,
36:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
36:55
SPEAKER_01: if you can do just a little study,
36:57
SPEAKER_01: if you read the Gospel of Matthew,
36:59
SPEAKER_01: for example,
37:00
just go on and do a quick search on who was the audience
37:05
Matthew was writing to.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: And you will appreciate a little bit more than the story.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Who was the audience Luke was writing to?
37:12
SPEAKER_01: You appreciate just a little bit more.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to do a lot of study.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: But the stories make a little bit more sense for you then.
37:19
SPEAKER_01: And of course,
37:19
you can go a whole lot deeper and find just how fascinating
37:23
those Gospels really
37:24
SPEAKER_01: are.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: So we're going to continue this series, Christianity 101.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: We don't know what we're going to talk about next week yet,
37:31
SPEAKER_01: because we want it to be a surprise for us.
37:35
And what will be an even bigger surprise is that Harry's house
37:37
is fixed yet.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, we appreciate you listening.
37:42
Look,
37:42
if these are helpful for you,
37:43
would you pass them along to your friends?
37:45
SPEAKER_01: We would appreciate that, the more the merrier.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: If you have any comments of agreement, you can send them to me.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: Any disagreement, send them to John at johndoesnotrespondtoemails.org.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: But we'll pray about them.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: We'll pray about those.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: All right.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: Thanks everybody for listening.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Back with you next week.