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Dalia Ziada · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

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I'm Rabbi Ami Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York, and
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you're listening to In These Times.
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As much as each of us would like to think we would always stand up for
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what is right, it's truly rare to find individuals who refuse to compromise on
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their morals, who do not fold even under social, financial, or familial pressure.
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Joining me today is one of those precious people.
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A writer, analyst, and activist, Dalia Ziada was born in Cairo,
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one of three children of a school teacher and a military officer.
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She studied English literature in Egypt and earned her master's in international
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relations from Tufts University.
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For her central role initiating Egypt's 2011 revolution, CNN called
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Dalia one of the eight agents of change to watch in the Arab uprisings.
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And Newsweek recognized her as one of the 150 most influential women in the world.
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In October.
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After Hamas terrorists infiltrated into Israel, committing the
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worst atrocities imaginable.
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And despite the anti semitism she'd grown up with all her life.
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Dalia dared to articulate support for Israel and its right to
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respond, and she paid a heavy price.
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Forced to flee Egypt, she's speaking with me now from an undisclosed
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location somewhere in the United States.
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Dalia
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Ziada, it's such an honor, truly, to have you be part of the
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podcast, and welcome to In These
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Times.
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Thank you so much, Rabbi Gersh.
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The honor is absolutely mine.
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I'm very happy, uh, to appear with you.
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First of all, tell me, uh, are you still in hiding?
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And tell us, uh, anything that you can about, about your circumstances now.
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So actually, yes, at the beginning I was in hiding.
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I had to leave Egypt in November.
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I mean, this was, uh, immediately after I made an interview with, uh,
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the Institute of National Security Studies in Tel Aviv University.
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It was a Zoom interview, actually, and I was commenting on what's going on in
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Gaza, the war between Israel and Hamas.
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And I said what I believe in, that Israel is leading a war on behalf of
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everyone in the region against terrorism, if not on behalf of the entire world.
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And I said that if Arab countries are thinking straight, they should be
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backing Israel rather than backing Hamas.
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Unfortunately, after that, it seems that this interview gave a license to
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the people who were angry against me for a while because of my statements
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in support of Israel, especially after the October 7 massacre, when I went
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out and I spoke up about what happened.
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On that day, I, like, took on myself the responsibility to tell my fellow Arabs and
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Muslims and Egyptians about what happened on October 7th in contradiction to the
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lies that have been spread by the Egyptian media, the Arab media about that day.
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So, this all together ignited a wave of hatred towards me, a huge backlash
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came from the radical Islamists who actually took extreme measures beyond
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the act of only sending death threats.
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They even went to my mother's house looking for me and they wanted to
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punish me for, for being, for not being a good Muslim, for daring
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to defend the Jewish people.
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In their eyes this means I'm not a good Muslim and also the other side of the
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attack which was It was really devastating to me, and I didn't expect it at all.
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I didn't see it coming at all.
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Came from the Egyptian state in the form of state sponsored media campaign against
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me that accused me of being a threat to Egypt's national security, of being
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a spy to the Israeli Mossad, and also legal claims filed by lawyers who have.
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indirect affiliations with the state, accusing me of committing high
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treason and other crimes that are punishable by either death sentence or
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in best case scenario life sentence.
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So I had to leave Egypt with a broken heart.
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Cairo in particular is the place where I was born and lived my whole life and
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it, it was really breaking my heart to leave like this and without any hope
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of going back simply because I dared to speak the truth to the public.
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You fled Egypt.
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You felt that your life was threatened.
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If you were to have stayed in Egypt, you might have been imprisoned or even worse.
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Exactly.
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I had, like, if I remained in Egypt, I would either face being in prison right
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now because of the four legal claims filed against me, or being killed by some
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fanatic Islamist in the street who would think that he's doing this to please
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God.
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Are you able to tell us where in the world you are?
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I don't want you to reveal anything that is dangerous for
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you.
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Right now I'm in the United States in, uh Like, one of the
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main cities in the United States.
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Great people who are surrounding me, friends from all backgrounds, literally,
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who are, some of them I knew from before, some of them are new friends, and they
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are doing everything they can to make sure that I am protected, I am well.
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And that I will get over this crisis.
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And they are, by the way, the people whom I call the good people.
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They are liberals, open minded.
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Uh, they know how to disagree on certain things like political opinions.
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And so while at the same time not taking it to the level of hatred.
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Do you feel, what do you feel?
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Do you feel threatened?
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Do you feel sad?
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I imagine you have family in Egypt.
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I don't know whether, are you in touch with them?
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What, what, what are your feelings now?
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My feeling is like.
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You know, my father always used to say to me, my late father, actually, he
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died a while ago, and, uh, I remember when I, when I always was angry because
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of how people treated me, or how my colleagues at school were not nice to
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me, or so, he always said to me, Always disregard the circumstances around
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you, just focus on who you can be.
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He always said to me, be the flower in the trash.
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And, uh, this has remained with me forever.
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Actually, I remember every time I feel the need that I have to step up and do
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something, even if the circumstances around me would not allow this.
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So thinking about this right now is really what's comforting me, is what's
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comforting my sense of homesickness, because honestly, I'm terribly homesick.
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I tell you something, you may be laughing at me when I say this, but
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actually sometimes I open Google Earth.
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Just to virtually walk in Cairo street.
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So it's, it shows you like how homesick I am.
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But every time I remember that I did this for a good cause, for a good reason.
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For, for standing up for people who were assaulted for no good reason at all.
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Like I, I, when I remember that, I feel really proud of what I did.
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And if time goes back and I knew that I will be facing all that.
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persecution I'm facing right now because I said the truth,
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I think I would say it again.
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I would not hesitate for a moment to stand up for the rights of
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the women, the children, and the innocent Israeli civilians who
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were assaulted on October 7th.
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And up till now, many bad people in the world are refusing to, to,
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to, to help them get their rights.
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Or to help them get justice simply because they are Jewish.
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So let me ask you to detail that a little more.
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Do you remember where you were when you first heard the news of October 7th?
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Was it on October 7th?
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It is.
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Yeah, actually I was like a few days before that.
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I was in the United States, uh in Washington Speaking
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at the Atlantic Council.
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It's a big think tank in Washington, and I was speaking about the the new dynamics of
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relationships in the Eastern Mediterranean and me and everyone on my panel, I had
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like someone sitting next to my right from Israel and someone to my left from
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Turkey and we all were very optimistic about how the Eastern Mediterranean is
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changing, the Middle East is changing, and we are watching peace happening.
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I returned it back to Egypt on October 6th.
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The next morning, I woke up to the news of this massacre, this horrible
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massacre, but unfortunately it was not reported in our media as a
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massacre, as, as a terrorist attack.
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It was reported as a clash between Israeli soldiers and Hamas militants.
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That's all they have said.
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And of course, if you live in the region, you will know this is.
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like news that we keep hearing every couple of weeks.
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So it was not like big news to me.
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But a few days later, I was invited to, um, a video conference that was organized
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by the ministry of foreign affairs and the ministry of defense in Israel.
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And they went very clever actually, because first of all,
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they made it in Arabic and they invited Arab journalists, writers,
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activists from all over the region.
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And the goal was to show us what happened on October 7th, the truth about
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what happened on October 7th, because Nothing was said about it in the Arab
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media, and it was actually twisted the other way by making it appear like
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Israel woke up one day and decided just to kill some Palestinians, you know?
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It's not the other way around.
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So the videos I saw were, were so horrific, were so horrific.
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It's the unthinkable, the unimaginable, the way Hamas militants assaulted
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innocent civilians that day in Israel.
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Still, it was.
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So shocking, I can't even describe to you.
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They were not just killing randomly or so, they were torturing people before killing
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them.
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You had no doubt that what you were hearing was true, right?
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Because even to this day, there are people who are denying the
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evidence that's very stark.
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But when you heard it, you had no doubt that you were witnessing the truth.
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Absolutely.
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Because it was not just hearing, we saw the videos, they showed us the
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videos collected from the houses, the kibbutzim, the streets, from everywhere,
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like from, even from the forms of the Hamas militants, there was evidence,
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like I saw this with my own eyes.
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Actually, I felt very angry after this video conference, not only because of the
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brutality of what I've seen, but also for the fact that Arab media has been lying.
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And they only lied because these people are Israelis or Jewish, you know, not
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if, if this happened in any other country in the world, I think the reporting
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would have been more fear than this.
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So.
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At that moment, actually, I decided to be the flower in the trash, as
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my father has always been saying.
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And I said, okay, someone has to speak up.
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Someone has to tell the truth to the Arabs who do not know the truth and to the
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Muslims who are thinking that the Israelis are leading a war on the Palestinians.
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So I went to my social media platforms, which are I have
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a very good following there.
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So I said, okay, this is a good way to speak the truth, to
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tell what happened on that day.
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And I did.
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And unfortunately after that, I received a horrible backlash, first
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on social media and then in real life.
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From who did you receive, from fellow Egyptians, from Islamists,
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from people around the world?
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It started from Islamists first, like radical Islamists, we call
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them the Salafists in Egypt.
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They are on the very far right of the Islamist spectrum.
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These were
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Egyptians who were responding or people just From
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everywhere.
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From everywhere.
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from East Asia, you know, from everywhere, but, but they were maybe Islamists.
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But then what was really shocking for me after that is how my neighbors,
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my relatives, even like ordinary Egyptians who I'm 100 percent
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sure are not radical or anything.
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They are just normal people started to attack me too.
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And they even started to accuse me of not being faithful to Egypt enough, not
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being a good Muslim, things like that.
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So it was, it was really shocking.
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And then in a matter of only a few days, things escalated to find out that
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the Egyptian state itself has joined the public in this rhetoric, and they
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decided to use me as a scapegoat.
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to prevent or to defend themselves against being attacked in the
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same way by the public outrage.
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Because, you know, the mainstream in Egypt and most of the Arab countries
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were very supportive to Hamas, uh, or are very supportive to Hamas.
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Did it,
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it, it must have surprised you a little bit, at least.
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I, I assume that you had expected some criticism from some people, but
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the extent of it, the level of it, and even from people who, as, as you
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said, were neighbors and friends and normal people, not radical people.
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Did that surprise you?
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Oh, absolutely.
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Especially that this, like this backlash, this reaction from the general public in
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the Arab world to the October 7 massacre and the wars that happened after that.
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This reaction was It's really unexpected at this moment of
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our history for several reasons.
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We have been seeing these initiatives happening between different countries.
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I call it the peace momentum, the reconciliation momentum that was happening
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in the Middle East for a while, for about five years or seven years now.
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We are not only seeing normalization initiatives between
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Israel and Arab countries.
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It's like the case with some Arab Gulf countries, Morocco, and so on.
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But also we've started to see that Arab countries and Eastern
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Mediterranean countries that have always been in conflict with each
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other, they started to outreach to each other and make rapprochement and
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reconciliation initiatives and so on.
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Take, for example, the case of Turkey and Egypt, Turkey and
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Israel, Israel and Lebanon.
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And the list goes on, even Arab Gulf countries like Qatar, UAE,
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Saudi Arabia, the list goes on.
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So we thought for a moment that, okay, we are living the momentum that will prevent
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Iran and its proxies in the region.
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From doing something as tragic as what happened on October 7 and actually
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as someone who's who's lived in the region and has been observing this
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change very closely, I thought that.
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It's hard now for the general public in Arab countries to go back to the
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moment when they were deceived by the rhetoric about Hamas being the good
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guys and Israel being the bad guys.
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Because we have seen with our own eyes, especially in countries like
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Egypt, for example, that Hamas.
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We're the ones who attacked our security when we were weak
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during the Arab Spring years.
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It was not Israel.
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On the contrary, Israel helped Egypt get rid of the terrorism in Sinai and so on.
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So for a moment, I believe that my generation was aware that, I mean,
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the generations that went through the Arab Spring has grown aware that.
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Israel is not the enemy and Hamas is a real enemy.
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Hamas and all the terrorist organizations like Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah,
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and so on are the real enemy.
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So, believe me, I thought like I'm doing the things that the people will
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accept and also the Egyptian state will accept because the Egyptian state
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has been in war against, uh, terrorism in the region also for a while, so.
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So, this sudden shift of abandoning Israel and siding with Hamas for pure, pure
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domestic political and economic reasons, I know that happened on the side of Egypt,
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Jordan, and even some Gulf countries who appear to be like the most liberal
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in the past years is very alarming.
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And, and.
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Tells a lot about the future of the region.
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So
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help us understand, what do you think are the reasons for the shift, as you
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said, very early on after October 7th?
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I've been to Egypt twice.
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I think I must have led groups of maybe 50 or 60 rabbis, maybe even
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more, maybe up to 80 or 100 rabbis to Egypt on two different occasions.
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On one occasion, we met with the former president Mubarak, but we also had a
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chance to walk through the streets.
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Um, And I don't want to say that they loved Israelis, I don't want to say
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that, but, you know, we were American Jews and our impression was that the
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Egyptians are such hospitable people.
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They're so kind and so warm.
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And this was, of course, after the peace accords were signed
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between Israel and Egypt.
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They, they had complicated feelings about Israelis, but we didn't, as American
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Jews and as spiritual leaders, as rabbis, we didn't encounter any kind of
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intense feelings of hostility towards us.
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To the contrary, we found the Egyptians delightful people.
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What do you think is going on?
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Why would the Egyptian government act the way they would and why are the
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Egyptian people still hostile to Israel?
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And does that hostility also extend to Jews?
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Thank you for speaking like this about Egypt and the Egyptian people.
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And also let me add one of the great signs of progress we we've started
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to see in Egypt in the past five years or so is that we started to
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see changes in the text book in, uh, regarding how they are talking about.
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the Jews, about Israel.
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And we started also to see the Egyptian government like taking
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initiatives to restore some of the synagogues in Cairo and Alexandria.
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But all of a sudden, I think what Hamas did on October 7th, because it
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happened at a time when the general public in Arab countries and in Egypt.
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In particular, are suffering from the consequences of dictatorial rule,
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which is influencing their day to day lives, which is creating a state of
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public outrage against the regimes.
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I would say autocratic regimes, not religious regimes, you know, so what
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happens that created a momentum for the Islamist groups in the region
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that the current autocratic regimes in Egypt and other countries has
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been fighting for a while and even removing them from power like the case
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of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
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So what Hamas did, offered the juxtaposition to these autocratic
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regimes, who do not mind cooperating with Israel in economy, security, and so.
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So they said, they offered like a new picture, like, look, we are standing
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for What they call quote unquote justice, we is the justice of the
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power for the Palestinian people.
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And so, uh, we are fighting against, we are causing problems to Israel.
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We are not cooperating with Israel.
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This somehow resonated.
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With what the general public believes in, and unfortunately, it's not a
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matter of like, it didn't happen overnight, of course, it took
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years and years for this to happen.
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Years, decades, actually took decades for this to happen.
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Let me give you one, one example, Egypt and Israel had a war in 1973.
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And they had a peace treaty in 1979, despite this fact, despite that we
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have a peace treaty with Israel up till today, there are in the Arabic
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textbooks of primary schools, there is a lesson, a complete lesson that
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takes one week about the October war.
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And there is a museum.
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of the October War in Cairo that students, after studying this
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lesson in school, they go and visit.
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And unfortunately, in this museum, you will see like Israel highlighted as
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the enemy and our historical enemy and that it will always remain the enemy.
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Every year we celebrate the anniversary of the October War
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or the 1973 war with Israel.
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And never ever there is a celebration of the peace treaty with Israel.
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It's not even mentioned at
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all.
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What's the reason for that?
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Because Egypt and Israel do cooperate very strongly behind the scenes.
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Even during this Gaza crisis, the peace treaty has been good for
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Egypt in every way, at least in terms of domestic resources, support
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from the West, and as some kind of acceptance, if not integration.
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with international bodies.
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And was an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is a mortal enemy
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of the Arab states in particular of the Egyptian government.
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Why would they foment animosity towards Israel?
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Over many decades, and in particular, since October 7th, it's almost as if
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Israel is helping the Egyptian government to do their dirty work for them.
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Unfortunately, that's true.
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That's true.
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So the issue about why, um, this relationship between Egypt and Israel
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is not, uh, getting on the right track yet, despite all the cooperation
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between the two states in the past few years and the peace treaties that
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has been in place for over 40 years.
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The fact that this relationship or this Israel Arab conflict
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in general took several layers beyond or above its actual core.
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The core of the conflict was mainly an Israeli Palestinian
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conflict over a piece of land.
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It started like this, but then because of domestic politics in Arab
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countries, like for example, at the time when Egypt has the free officers
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revolution in the early 1950s and then the rise of a new republican regime,
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new military led republican regime.
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We started to see that they needed to create an enemy, an enemy that will,
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will unite or will help create fear that unites all Arab countries around
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Gamal Abdel Nasser, who was the leader or the president of Egypt at that time.
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So Who is the easiest enemy to create in the region?
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It was Israel at that time.
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And all of a sudden, the conflict that was supposed to be only an
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Israeli Palestinian conflict has become an Israeli Arab conflict.
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And then it took a whole new dimension and a whole new complication.
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Above that, in the 1918 and 1980 and 1990.
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Buried.
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There was a very strong rise of the Islamist rhetoric in Egypt
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and in Jordan also, by the way.
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So at that time, the Islamist rhetoric was very strong that important sheikhs
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and imams would come on TV and speak like superstars, you know, they are on
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TV all the time and This is how I think the regime at that time was thinking this
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is how they could control the people.
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So they, they exaggerated in using this religious rhetoric and unfortunately part
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of it was taking the Arab Israeli conflict into a new level of complication, which
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has become a Muslim Jewish conflict.
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And these Imams started to dig deep into religious texts, religious holy
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texts of Islam, to search for texts that are demonizing the Jewish people
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and demonizing the concept of Israel among the Arabs and portraying Israel
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as being a foreign body that is forced.
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All the region and that we all Muslims will be God when all the Jewish people are
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eliminated or all Arabs will be God when all the Israel, when Israel is eliminated.
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And they started to promote that.
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So of course, unfortunately, over years, it has complicated the, the very simple
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conflict that was happening between Israel and Palestinians over a piece
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of land, which by the way, It would have been very much easier to negotiate
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if it was only kept to this limit.
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However, it has now become a Muslim Jewish conflict and an Arab Israel conflict.
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So that's why every time this conflict is being renewed or came
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to the front once again, it, it comes with a lot of complications.
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It's not as simple as we are looking from outside.
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So you're in the United States.
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You've, you've been here now for a couple of months, several months.
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I don't know if you've had a chance to visit American campuses or
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you're observing what's happening on American campuses and on the
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streets of some of our cities.
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We were taken aback.
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We in the Jewish community were taken aback by the ferocity of protests
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and animosity and anti Semitism that erupted in the aftermath of October 7th.
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And it shook some of our alliances because most American Jews are liberals.
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They define themselves as liberals.
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And we were part of these great institutions of Western civilization.
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The media, the universities, higher education, women's organizations,
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civil rights organizations.
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These were all part of how American Jews saw their destiny
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in, in the United States.
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And we were not only part of them, in some cases, we helped to build these
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institutions and led these institutions.
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So if you take a look at American campuses nowadays and, and the
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extent of Not only the anti Zionism, but the fervor for Hamas.
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How do you explain that, and what do you think American Students and
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people who define themselves as on the left of the political spectrum,
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what do you think they're missing?
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What do you know that they don't know?
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Actually, yes, I, I visited several, uh, university campuses since I came here,
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either to speak about the situation in the Middle East or trying to figure
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out for myself what's happening.
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Also, I studied in an American university in Boston myself.
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So, I can see the difference, I can see the change, the shift
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that's now happening, and I can sense how shocking it is.
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I have a theory that explains why this happens.
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I believe that anti Semitism in American universities has existed for
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a while, for at least a decade or so.
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We have seen, for example, the BDS campaigns against Israel, a lot of
28:12
negative rhetoric about Israel, many misinformation about the reality
28:17
in the Middle East and so on.
28:19
But it was limited to an extent.
28:21
It was limited to the political extent.
28:24
It did not go beyond that.
28:26
Until, I believe, in the past few years after, you know, the Arab Spring
28:31
experience and the fight against Islamists in the Middle East and
28:34
so on, these Islamist organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood and its
28:39
brother organizations, their members had to flee the Arab countries because
28:44
they were fighting against them.
28:45
So where did they go?
28:47
They went to Europe and to the United States.
28:50
And they started to abuse the open society culture in these countries.
28:56
To promote their perception or their rhetoric about the Middle East,
29:03
about the politics of the Middle East, about Islam, about the Israel
29:07
Palestinian conflict, and so on.
29:10
So, we started to see them also, also the fact that they exist in universities,
29:16
they exist also in several decision making bureaus right now in the United
29:21
States, and they also thanks to the social media and follow ons, and so
29:24
So these Islamists somehow were able to infiltrate into the groups of young
29:29
people all over the United States, not only in universities, but also in the
29:33
leftist movement, for example, that's now happening in or have been happening
29:38
in the United States for a while.
29:39
They were able, these Islamists were able to infiltrate into these
29:43
groups under the guise that there are a minority as well, and that
29:48
they represent the Muslim minority.
29:50
And they started To promote their twisted version of the truth, to promote
29:57
their lies to these young people.
29:59
So today, for example, one of the things that make me laugh, although
30:03
they are very shocking actually, is some of the slogans that some of the
30:08
young Americans here are saying when they are protesting against Israel or
30:13
protesting in favor of Hamas or so.
30:16
Some of them, for example, label Hamas as freedom fighters.
30:19
Not as terrorist organizations, all of them called the
30:23
Israelis as white colonialists.
30:26
And I'm sure the people who said that know nothing, nothing about the Middle
30:30
East because if they know, they will realize that more than 60 percent
30:34
of the Jewish people in Israel today were originally from Arab countries.
30:39
And there are also Arab Israelis and there are even African Israelis.
30:43
So saying that, you know, Israel is a white colonialist, uh,
30:47
something was really funny to me.
30:50
And even what was even more shocking to me is that I saw some women
30:54
and some people from the LGBT community in American universities.
30:59
In Washington, who are carrying slogans in support of Hamas?
31:03
And I was like, saying to myself, do they understand that Hamas would kill them in a
31:08
heartbeat simply because they are from the LGBT community or because they are women?
31:14
Yeah.
31:14
Do they understand this?
31:15
Of course not.
31:16
They don't.
31:17
So I think they are somehow influenced by this Islamist rhetoric that they're
31:24
Beers are saying to them, Islamist beers are saying to them, I mean,
31:29
and also this long anti Semitic movement in American universities
31:35
that has been going on for a while.
31:37
So it's really sobering because these people are the most educated.
31:43
The most intelligent, the most well read, and what you're describing is a
31:50
level of ignorance that is bottomless.
31:56
But nonetheless, it's not that they're not capable of investigating the
32:00
truth and understanding the truth.
32:02
I mean, it, it, it, it's obvious to even casual observers.
32:07
That any person from the gay and lesbian community, from the LGBT community to, or
32:13
liberal Christians who would try to assert themselves in Gaza would be persecuted.
32:20
And if they wouldn't be able to be stopped, they would be killed.
32:23
So I think, I think what you're implying is that there's, there's a
32:29
real moral crisis That's affecting the key institutions of Western life.
32:35
What's at stake for Western civilization in this struggle that has become so
32:41
intense in the aftermath of October 7th?
32:45
Oh, there is a lot at stake for Western civilizations and Western
32:50
countries if they continue to let the This, uh, twisted rhetoric about the
32:56
Israeli Palestinian conflict going on, if they continue to let this anti
33:00
Semitic movement to win the hearts and minds of young people in American
33:05
universities and European universities.
33:07
And so, because actually, if you go back to the textiles of the Muslim
33:12
Brotherhood, the papers they were writing about their plans for their future.
33:17
You will see texts written about sabotaging the West from within, and their
33:23
campaign was mainly about let's travel to these countries, live there, create
33:28
second and third generations there, and let these generations lead the public
33:33
opinion and thus sabotage the Western civilization and replace it with an
33:39
Islamist way of ruling and way of living.
33:43
So, It's very dangerous.
33:45
We have to, and by the way, this is not papers that I discovered myself
33:50
or they are randomly on the internet.
33:52
These came as a result of FBI investigations that took years and
33:57
years to investigate into the Muslim communities here in the United States
34:01
and how they separated between.
34:04
extremists, radical Islamists, and moderate Muslims.
34:08
Unfortunately, the moderate Muslims, although they are the
34:11
majority of the Muslims who live worldwide, they are not organized.
34:16
Moderate Muslims are more liberal, more open minded, but they are
34:19
not organized as well as the radical Muslims, Islamists are.
34:24
Because the radical Islamists have a political motivation moving them.
34:28
But for the moderate Muslims, the issue is mostly about individual relationship
34:33
with God and like we should, we don't feel like we need to impose our
34:39
religious beliefs on other people.
34:41
It's not the case for the radical Islamists.
34:44
They are very well organized.
34:45
They know what they're doing.
34:46
They have long term plans that goes for decades and they are
34:51
determined to make it happen.
34:53
And we are seeing the fruit of this now of what's happening in Western countries
34:56
in reaction to a simple conflict that does not need much investigation to understand.
35:02
It's a terrorist organization attacked a number of civilians in
35:07
their homes on a holiday morning.
35:09
What do you think, like, Israel would do?
35:11
What Israel did, the reaction of Israel, fighting against Hamas and chasing Hamas
35:17
terrorists, is the reaction that any country in the world would do if its
35:21
citizens are attacked in a similar way.
35:24
But unfortunately, this is what's not what's being told here.
35:27
This is what the people are standing for.
35:29
They just ignore the fact that there are women who have, who have
35:33
been raped on that day, children who has been slaughtered in a
35:37
very, very brutal way on that day.
35:40
And innocent civilians who were killed on that day or kidnapped and so on.
35:44
And they are just focusing, Oh, look, Israel is coming.
35:47
killing the women and children in Gaza and they are killing the Palestinians.
35:53
Okay.
35:54
But who is really killing the Palestinians?
35:57
It's not Israel.
35:58
It's Hamas.
35:59
Who started this war?
36:01
Who initiated this war?
36:02
Israel did not want to go to war, honestly.
36:05
And we know that Israel did not choose this war.
36:08
It's Hamas who did this war.
36:10
And if Israel did not react in this way.
36:13
There, there would have been a problem, actually.
36:15
And the fact that the women and children are dying in Gaza now,
36:19
it's not the fault of Israel.
36:21
It's the fault of Hamas, who are hiding, Hamas militants, who are
36:25
hiding in the tunnels and letting the women and children, the Palestinian
36:31
women and children, above the ground, facing the horrors of war alone, and
36:37
even being used as human shields.
36:40
For the Hamas militants, if you, if you see, for example, how Hamas leaders,
36:45
uh, who are now living in Qatar, Turkey, and other countries, they come
36:50
on Al Jazeera TV and they speak very proudly about the bloodshed in Gaza.
36:55
And the more the blood in Gaza is, the more successful they are.
37:00
So they don't even care for the blood of their own people.
37:05
I mean, Hamas does not even care for the blood of the Palestinian people.
37:09
They want more and more of it.
37:12
How do you deradicalize so many tens of millions or maybe even hundreds of
37:20
millions of people, and in particular the Palestinian, much of Palestinian
37:25
nationalism is defined as opposing Israel as opposed to, you know,
37:30
building up Palestinian society.
37:33
How do you deradicalize generations that have been raised.
37:37
on this hatred of Israelis and hatred of Jews, and that forms
37:41
the essence of their identity.
37:44
Speaking from personal experience, I'm someone who grew up in Egypt.
37:48
In every Friday in our mosques, I hear the sheikhs and imams praying or cursing
37:55
the Jewish people and cursing Israel.
37:58
So I grew up believing, and also our media all the time speaking about Israel being
38:02
the enemy, so I grew up believing that the Jewish people and Israel are the enemy.
38:07
So, yes, I was thinking like these people at one point in my life, but later on,
38:12
when I started to be exposed to the experiences of the Egyptian Jews who
38:17
lived in Egypt, and I was very lucky actually, because in a pretty young age,
38:22
like in my teens or so, I started to see these people and communicate with, to
38:26
work on religious freedom initiatives.
38:29
And so, so this somehow Like, this detangled the thing that
38:36
is causing the problem today.
38:38
I was just telling you about how complicated the conflict has become.
38:43
It started as an Israeli Palestinian conflict over a piece of land, and then it
38:48
became an Arab Israel conflict, and then later it became a Muslim Jewish conflict.
38:54
So for me, it went backwards.
38:56
And I think if we adopt a strategy that takes, that helps
39:01
de radicalize people based on this backward approach, this will help.
39:07
Meaning that we start first by highlighting to the people that
39:11
it's not a Muslim Jewish conflict.
39:12
Muslims and Jews has, has lived together forever.
39:17
And they, and especially, especially in countries like Egypt, like, you know,
39:22
Egypt and the Jewish people, their history is very, very intertwined.
39:27
It's very, very connected.
39:29
So people need to understand that the Jewish people is part of our
39:34
culture as Arabs, is part of the culture of Egyptians, is part of
39:38
the, of the cultures of Muslims even.
39:41
So we are not enemies.
39:43
So, if we, like, dismantle this part first, the Muslim Jewish conflict
39:48
first, and then we go under that by working on more peace initiatives
39:53
between Israel and Arab countries to dismantle the concept that it is an Arab
39:57
Israeli conflict, because it is not.
40:00
Arab countries still can make peace treaties with Israel, still can work
40:04
with Israel, still can have very good relationships with Israel, and integrate
40:09
Israel as part of the Middle East region as it deserves to be, actually, and
40:15
deal with that regardless if the Israel Palestinian conflict is resolved or not.
40:20
So when we dismantle this, I think if we solve like this religious This dimension
40:26
and this Arab, Arabism dimension of the, of the issue, it will be much
40:32
easier after that to look into the Israeli Palestinian conflict itself.
40:38
And, and bring it to its real size once again, its real small size once again,
40:44
and focus on the issues, how, how to make a better life for the Palestinians, how
40:49
to make a better life for the Israelis, how these two people can live together
40:53
on this piece of land without problems.
40:55
We can then negotiate about all of that.
40:57
It will be much easier.
40:59
But first we need to work on the religious dimension and the pan Arabism dimension.
41:05
And to be honest, this will take many years.
41:08
But we should start,
41:10
you know, I, I feel exhilarated speaking with you because I share so many of
41:15
your values and we're both liberal, religious people and you know, if
41:21
you and I had to make peace, I think we would be able to do it if, if.
41:24
If the people gave it to us to resolve all these problems, I think
41:27
over time we'd be able to do it.
41:29
So tell me, before we finish up, how would you define your liberal
41:34
religious Muslim perspective?
41:37
What does that mean in your life?
41:39
And our People here are listening.
41:42
They don't see a screen, but I see that you're wearing a hijab and you're
41:46
voicing values and opinions that most of us in the liberal Jewish world
41:50
would subscribe to immediately as well.
41:53
So how do you see your liberal religious outlook on life?
41:57
And how does that bear on your day to day
41:59
action?
42:01
Thank you, Rabbi Hershey, for bringing this point.
42:04
It's very important because actually many people believe if you are
42:08
liberal, you are not religious.
42:10
And if you are religious, you cannot be liberal.
42:13
Although, actually, if you are religious enough, if you're really religious, if
42:17
you really have a very good relationship with God, you will understand that God did
42:21
not create us to fight with each other.
42:24
He created us to coexist with each other, to love each other,
42:29
to make each other better.
42:31
I think this is the reason why we were given free choice at all.
42:34
Because it's the essence of liberalism, actually, this concept
42:38
of free choice, which exists in Judaism and exists in Islam also.
42:44
So, people tend to disregard all of that and just focus on if you are religious,
42:50
of just to be defending your own religion and just disapprove everyone
42:55
else, disagree with everyone else.
42:57
But no, I, I am a big believer in freedom of choice.
43:02
I'm a big believer in humanity.
43:04
And a big believer in the fact that we all belong to the same human family.
43:08
We all worship the same God as the same creator of the universe.
43:14
We humans are not in competition.
43:16
We humans are here to live a happy life, to make the world a better
43:21
place, to make each other's lives more prosperous, more comfortable.
43:27
So this is, I think, why, what we're supposed to be doing.
43:31
That's why I believe that liberalism is a way, actually, liberalism is
43:36
a solution for all our problems.
43:39
Liberalism does not contradict in any way with being a religious person
43:43
or a practicing religious person.
43:46
On the contrary, a good religious person would be even more inclined
43:52
to the liberal side of everything more than on the more radical side.
43:58
I say amen to that.
44:00
I want to ask you one final question.
44:03
Do you want to go back to Egypt?
44:05
And do you expect to be able to go back to Egypt?
44:08
You know, from all my heart, yes, definitely I dream about the day I
44:13
will be able to go back to Egypt.
44:15
But, unfortunately, this is It's not possible anytime soon.
44:19
There are legal claims filed against me.
44:21
Two of them has been, have been forwarded to the court already.
44:26
If I go back to Egypt, I will immediately be arrested at
44:29
the airport and sent to jail.
44:32
And then after that, I may be sentenced to death or sentenced to life.
44:36
So despite all the pain I'm feeling right now away from Egypt, I don't think there
44:42
is I hope that I will be back there soon, but I'm determined to live my life and
44:48
to keep my voice loud about the things I believe in, no matter where I am.
44:53
And I think that I will be able to make myself a new home
44:58
here in the United States.
44:59
And I'm sure with the great people who are surrounding me right now, great
45:03
people like you, Rabbi Varshiyo, whom I'm meeting on my way and giving me a
45:08
lot of hope, I think I think I will be able to survive and hopefully, hopefully
45:14
one day in, after all this personal crisis is over, I'll be able to go back.
45:18
Hopefully.
45:19
Dalia, I want to thank you.
45:21
You're a remarkable person and I wish you all the best.
45:24
Good luck.
45:25
Keep your voice out there.
45:26
Keep doing the hard work.
45:28
You can inspire so many people.
45:31
Thank you so much.
45:32
Thank you so, so much for these kind words.
45:34
Dalia
45:39
Ziyadah is a marvel.
45:42
Of all the people I've interviewed on this podcast.
45:45
I think I most resonated emotionally with her.
45:49
She is a rare, precious, and beautiful soul.
45:53
One woman in a patriarchal region who stands up for truth and justice.
45:58
Who refuses to compromise her dignity to those who speak
46:01
falsely and act with malice.
46:04
Why would anyone seek to harm her?
46:07
She represents the best of us.
46:09
Embodying the most admirable qualities of the human creature.
46:14
From where does she summon this courage?
46:16
It's a remarkable thing to behold.
46:18
Because, while we would all prefer to see ourselves like her.
46:22
We always tell ourselves and teach our children, stand up for
46:25
principles, stand up for what is right.
46:28
Deep down, we know that when push comes to shove, we would not meet the test.
46:33
Or, at the very least, we have sufficient doubts that we would
46:37
be able to muster those reservoirs of bravery and integrity that lie
46:42
hidden deep in our human composition, so as to marvel at people who do.
46:48
Most of us will compromise our principles and slink from standing up for what is
46:53
right when pressure is placed upon us.
46:56
In our daily lives, it could be social media harassment, cancellation,
47:01
abandonment of friends, or perhaps loss of career opportunities.
47:06
I'm not even saying that it's wrong to retreat from the fight.
47:09
Each of us needs to weigh every decision we make in terms of costs and benefits.
47:15
We have many responsibilities to family, friends.
47:18
Those who rely on us, and to ourselves as well.
47:22
I'm simply pointing out that most of us are nowhere near as courageous
47:25
as Dahlia, and will not come close to paying the price that she has.
47:31
And deep down, we know it.
47:34
And this is the reason we admire people like Dahlia.
47:38
The qualities she exhibits, the strength of character and conviction, the price
47:42
she has already paid for speaking truth.
47:45
For her refusal to compromise her basic integrity are so rare.
47:49
Not because most people don't know in their hearts that murder,
47:52
rape, and kidnapping are wrong, but they will sublimate their
47:56
outrage to the force, coercion, and social pressures placed upon them.
48:02
This is how murderous, oppressive, and unjust regimes survive year
48:05
after year, decade after decade.
48:08
I'm convinced that there are more good people than bad people.
48:12
But the good people remain silent, or are coerced into silence.
48:17
Thomas Jefferson wrote, All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for those
48:21
of good conscience to remain silent.
48:24
He was right then, he's right now.
48:28
It is not courage alone that we admire in Dahlia.
48:32
Physical courage is morally neutral.
48:34
The sad truth, if we brush away all the political rhetoric.
48:39
Is that terrorists can be courageous too.
48:41
They are often willing to lay down their lives in service to an idea.
48:45
If only they were not courageous, they would be easier to deal with.
48:49
Therefore, courage can be dangerous.
48:51
History's villains were courageous too.
48:54
But they were courageous for the wrong things.
48:57
This is what we admire in Dahlia.
48:59
She is courageous for the right things.
49:02
Human dignity, truth, justice, compassion, liberty, freedom, peace, coexistence.
49:10
The well worn phrase, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom
49:15
fighter, is, at its core, a cynical, even nihilistic view of the world.
49:21
It's simply not true.
49:24
There is right and wrong, good and evil, life and death.
49:28
Even if locating what is right, good, and life affirming, It's often
49:32
a complicated and uneven process.
49:36
We need people like Dalyazyana.
49:39
We need them more than we think because much of what passes for morality today
49:44
is really moral, miasmic, myopia, blusterous self righteous preening.
49:50
A kind of egotistic and narcissistic virtue signaling.
49:55
Dahlia herself spelled it out for us.
49:57
October 7 was an attack not only against the Jewish people, but all people.
50:02
And if those who claim to represent justice, freedom, tolerance, women's
50:05
rights, civil society, view mass murder, gang rape, and kidnapping of grandparents,
50:11
parents, children, and babies as freedom fighting, then our concepts of right and
50:15
wrong, justice and injustice, freedom and oppression have become corrupted.
50:20
We need people like Dahlia to set us straight and guide us out of the
50:23
fog and mist purposely sowed within our central institutions to confuse
50:28
us and undermine Western values.
50:31
We need moral teachers and moral guides.
50:34
We are born with moral potential, but like every other skill,
50:38
moral talent must be activated.
50:40
We must learn to be good.
50:41
We need moral training.
50:43
We need moral discipline.
50:45
This is why the failure of America's top educators and spiritual leaders
50:48
to respond to the moral evil of October 7 is so devastating.
50:54
We need to practice morality, not merely think about it.
50:57
We need to habituate ourselves daily to moral living and train
51:01
ourselves daily for moral discipline.
51:05
If we have such moral exemplars.
51:08
If they offer moral example in word and in deed, and if they
51:11
demonstrate moral courage in defiance of cowardice or convenience,
51:16
there is yet hope for humanity.
51:19
To paraphrase Robert F.
51:20
Kennedy, each time a person stands up for an ideal, or strikes out against
51:25
injustice, they send forth a tiny ripple of hope, and those ripples build a
51:31
current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.
51:40
Until next time, this is In These Times.