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CASEBOOK: What makes a good sex life? · Mental Health Matters

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_05: Good evening and welcome to Mental Health Matters After Hours.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_05: You'll see the set is slightly different today.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_05: We do have a slightly spicier set because we are welcoming sex therapist Medina Demibra to this the show.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_05: She is going to be talking to us about how we can have a good sex life, or really what a good sex life actually is.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_05: So sit back, enjoy, and let's head over to the main studio.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Medina, welcome back to the show.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, thank you, Audrey and Jenna.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's always so great to have you here because we get to talk to you about naughty things than we don't get to talk to any of our other guests about.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_05: So that's really exciting.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_05: And we've even redone the set for you as well.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_05: So that's how special you are.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_05: I'm going to cut straight to the chase.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_05: Can you, Medina, define what is a good sex life?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very tricky question indeed.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I would go for good enough sexual life.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: And by enough, I mean enough in these particular circumstances.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: The inner circumstances and the outer circumstances.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: By inner one, I mean your current mental state.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you're struggling with something, if you're going through a difficult period at your job, menopause or other illness, you know, in that conditions, maybe what you're having right now is good enough.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's brilliant.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Takes away the pressure.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, definitely, because the last thing you want for good sexual life is the amount of pressure on you and your partner, especially performative pressure, but we will talk about it later.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then the external circumstances, uh what I would refer like the situation, the political situation in the world, the situation again at your work, um, the situation with your relatives and so on and so forth.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So once you really see the uh these two realities uh of you and your partner, it will be easier for you to define for yourself what is good enough sexual life for me and for us, because your partner could be in a different erotic space as well.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_05: That's so important to remember, actually, because I think we're so used to these cosmopolitan articles and things, and it's all comparative, and of course, that person who is able to have sex three times a day or whatever, they don't have the same internal or external circumstances as you, and so what and that may not even be good enough for them that we're just definitely I love that, which which kind of leads me on to the next question, really.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_05: Therefore, what might you call not a good enough sex life?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_05: So for some people they just want companionship, and actually they're really, really happy with that, yeah, um, but for maybe one one of that partnership, maybe that's not enough because they don't want to just sit and hold hands, they actually want a bit more um intimacy.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_05: Um so can you have a I guess can you have a good good enough sex life without the sex?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, definitely.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um because if we define sexual life, which I wanted to mention in the beginning, just by sex, the actual genital sex, then we're really limiting ourselves to a very, very shaky ground that can uh bring a lot of dissatisfaction and unhappiness and so on.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: I always invite um my clients uh to broaden the understanding into a erotic or sexual well-being rather than just sexual life, because it has this connotation of some kind of performance between two people that are doing it passionately all the time and so on.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if you break it down into like smaller parts, um, because as as we like to say, the beginning of uh a new sexual act is the end of the previous one.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So all this, yeah, all this time, all this foreplay, all this anticipation that is building up and all this preparations, they're all part of this erotic flow, if you would like, or erotic well-being.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, a bad answering your question, a bad enough sexual life is disregarding the circumstances, thinking that no matter what, I've gotta have it all.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: My partner is supposed to want it three times per day, uh, want me only, uh, preferably, and um uh I I don't care what's going on with him, I don't care what's going on with you, it just should happen.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there is this expectation that we will uh talk about as well, like that it should be so spontaneous and um without any effort.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, exactly.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_04: It's the expectation and and what am I supposed to those sort of should supposed to be, those kind of words.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_04: Where does that come from?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_04: Because you know, we don't all sit and watch porn, and so you know, we don't all rip each other's clothes off all the time.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: So, where do where do we get that expectation from?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um obviously, you know, it's it's something that that we are brought uh brought up with, the cultures which is which is requiring you to be the best all the time, no matter what, disregard everything else, just put the smile on and move on and do it, especially for women, because it's seen as obligation and they're being objectified, sadly, very very often in the uh marriage.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh unfortunately, and and the husbands would come to me and say, like, what am I supposed to do?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't want it, so I'll just go and you know.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't this what marriage is for?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, she's yeah, to to be with her.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily about the this object objectification is not necessarily towards women, it could be towards men as well in sexual life and in financial sphere as well.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: But this is just one of the um examples.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the this this answering your question, so this there is a cultural background, there's also family background of what you are supposed to be everything now for your husband or for your wife.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because the the dynamics of families have changed as well.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Historically, it used to be a community, you know, the families used to live with communities and you used to satisfy different needs, not necessarily sexual, but different emotional needs with different people from the community.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: Now you just got the one, yeah.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And now uh there's a lot of expectation from this one person to be your sexual partner, the best one out of all that you had before.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he should be um uh maybe even your business partner in some cases, a good one.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he should be a good listener, he should be a carer, he should understand, uh she should be nourishing.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of this I hear in my um couple sessions.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh, this is this is why I created the family.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want a woman who is waiting for me and longing to hug me.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: So this so she's supposed to be this mothering figure as well, and it's all in one person, so no wonder it collapses.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_05: That's that's really that's completely changed my outlook.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_05: That's really interesting because I think we do unwittingly put pressure onto our partner and all ourselves as well, yeah without realizing that actually we can be getting certain nourishment from from other places and probably should be because our partner may not be great at that particular thing.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so I know you've got a question, I just wanted to pull up something that you said earlier.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_05: The financial pressure, is that linked to sexual pressure?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Not in all families, unless it is verbally, you know, and the many of these processes unfortunately are not uh even verbalized, or the family might not be aware that there's this dynamics that the more you earn, so that for example, the more I earn, the more I want the sexual attention from my wife, for example, and vice versa, if I'm giving it to you, sort of like why don't you uh be a man?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, like um it's very complicated, and but um I don't know, it's I'm talking more about the traditional families, yes, but then uh you know, even in in this country, there are families who are coming from traditional backgrounds and they're still trying to find their way which would be semi-traditional but still work for them, and it's it's you know, they're trying to navigate different expectations and so on.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_04: So interesting.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_04: There's so much behind it, it's not just us you know, just that, is it?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's never just the bottom sex.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, sorry.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um so how does um you know we have an idea of what a good sex life might be?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_04: How does the need for that change over time and how do we stay in sync with our partner then?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting when you say sync, it reminds me of an airfire that we just recently bought and I have two um drawers drawers, and you can press the button and then they will cook some together.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good thing.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um unfortunately it doesn't always work like that in the file.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Not yet, maybe uh so really um it could be that if you are if if you find yourself in a different erotic space, it could be that you have changed and your preferences might have changed.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that you don't want sex, but you don't you want a different type of sex, and a good way, especially for women, um I just recently read Want by Gillian Anderson.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's um it's a collection of different types of sexual fantasies that she invited people to write, and she was editing it.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it was interesting how you can sort of understand that I didn't, you know, it's it's usually the same preferences you thought you had, but this is sort of like broadens your sexual script, and and you don't have to realize all of this fantasy, but at least it widens your understanding of of what resonates with you.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: So um yeah, I I genuinely enjoyed it as um as a sex therapist and as a woman as well.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I I recommend it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_05: Oh wow, brilliant, and I fun to think that's also helpful because hearing other people's experiences, because it's not necessarily the thing you would talk about over dinner, even with your friends, even your close friends.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_05: Um it's nice then to I guess going on to the question of staying in sync, yes, it's about recognizing people do have this different erotic space, which I love that term.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_05: And if that woman feels differently to this woman who feels differently to this woman, then actually you can begin to accept that you may feel differently to your partner and so on.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, then is it because they they the way that it was done in the book, they put it in different chapters and different preferences.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just the sexual fantasy, but uh women do tend to share a little bit of their of their lives as well, like I'm this and this uh years old, and this is what I'm going through, and you kind of can empathize, or it it really uh or I have this and this disability, and this is what people think of me sexual, but this this is not the case, and and so on and so forth.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my goodness.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_05: Well, Medina, you're staying with us, we'll be back just after this.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Words have a huge power and influence in how we interpret the world and our reality.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: So wording correctly can have a huge impact on how you perceive the life you live and the changes you want to make.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters After Hours where we're talking to Medina about how to have a good sex life.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um how do we stop, Medina, if if um we don't want to have as much sex as our partner or the other way around, how do we stop that person feeling rejected?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's very interesting because it sounds like you're responsible for the other person's rejection feeling.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a shared responsibility, is you know, it's always a dynamic between the two.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: I that's why I um I like to invite both of them.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: How does this loop start?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because the more uh the the woman or the man, it doesn't have to be gender the specific gender, rejects him or her, the more he feels rejected, the more he chases.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's always a chaser and a rejector in in it could be in sexual life as well, but also emotionally.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: So uh there's some kind of a loop that that's happening here, and uh therefore it's um the work on both sides, therefore.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: So the person who gets rejected should should, you know.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I always ask a simple question: how do you treat masturbation?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: How how what's your stance on it?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if especially there's there's some kind of clash with ego, like why would you have why if I'm married, like isn't this what marriage is for?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: But then it um then you put all of your desire at the mercy of your partner, and uh then the whole sexual act fix like feels like an obligation for your partner, and therefore the whole it's not anymore about the flow, but it's just about you know putting the tick in the box and just letting this person finish off and just you know going to bed, which is the last thing you want for the the actual connection that um sex that that sexual interaction can bring, and sometimes so what I invite in this kind of cases to do the couples is for it to be is an invitation, which you know I'm feeling uh playful tonight.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Would you like to join me and so on?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay if you don't.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that kind of a permission really releases the pressure from yourself and from your partner as well.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if your partner says, All right, I'll play along, and then at some point, you know, I I don't feel like it.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's alright, it's okay, I can finish off by myself.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it should be seen as a normal progression, whereas which is very rarely the case.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that you know that makes you a self-sufficient person in that sense, it's very tricky, I understand.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: But um, there is it uh, you know, we were talking about finance and everything, but there is no more sexier person than somebody who is self-sufficient in that sense.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: That is true, yeah.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: That is really true.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: That that could be one of the ways of of navigating it, but of course, there are there there could be many, many other layers.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh why the other person is rejecting is it a way of saying no to other things?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you should always try to what's really going on because sexual rejection usually is not about sex, or the person who rejects might be in a different, you know, might need longer space because the research shows uh that women need more time to get in the mood than men, yeah.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: So then to start having the conversations, you've you've made some suggestions that you you may be sort of playful or I love that word.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_04: It kind of takes the pressure off again.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, how else could people start to have the conversations about if they're feeling rejected?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_04: Should they talk about where where the issues might be rather than in the bedroom?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I recommend because because the topic of sexuality carries so much shame around it in most of the cultures, even in in the families which are you know have a positive sexual attitude, but still we carry so much shame and sometimes even trauma with it.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And just talk, just even mentioning about it could be a big trigger for your partner for yourself.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: If that's the case, I I wouldn't necessarily talk about it straight away, but again, I would invite even by writing, maybe like a small note.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's something that has been bothering me.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Would you like to listen?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Would you like to explore this together?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh rather than right, I'm feeling rejected every single time, I'm sick of it.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: I want a divorce, you know.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um which you know, it it's it's normal to feel sick of it, and it's normal to feel frustrated and everything, but uh the the last thing you want to do is to put another pressure of uh listening to your problem, and you know I love that as well.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_04: An invitation to listen, that's that's something that I've not really heard like that before.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_04: I really love that.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: So that that could be a great place to start.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_05: Easy words to use, playful and listen.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just you know, it's it's easier said than done, definitely.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And to have this patience, uh, you know, to like I would like to invite you to talk to me in the in writing and then give this person time.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: While you're waiting, you might need support.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: You might need psychotherapeutic support, support of your friends, because the tension isn't there, the elephant is in the room, you're just you know, you're just respecting the other person and and and you know you're creating you're trying to create a safe space, and sometimes it takes a long time.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, because I think I think that relates so much.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_05: Um, this whole rejection thing comes with expectations because if, for example, um the woman often there's there's a book by Garbor Mate, um The Body Says No.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I was gonna mention it.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_05: Which is just such a great book, and um there almost it's the cultural and societal expectation that the woman is going to sacrifice her needs and do all of those things, and and it's just absolutely natural.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_05: But that feeling of rejection may not be again, it may not be sexual, it may be because of something completely different, and then you end up feeling rejected, but then linking it to sex instead of it being the other thing sex would be easier, sort of to point it out because it's it's it's visible, but it's not, you know.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the actual people think, like I said, that sex is about the genital interaction, whereas sex life is so much broader than that, this little cues, this little playfulness, little dance around, little hugs, you know, that's all part of.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_05: Whereas the rejection might be that just they don't feel listened to, or they don't feel yeah, which you can't see tangibly.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_05: That makes sense.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Always check like what what what's going on with other spheres.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's you and yet to see a couple or a family, uh if it's a or a group, if it's a polyamorous group, where everything else is great and just their sexual life is suffering.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_05: That's really that's a good thing to know, actually.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's a really good point.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's it it's in it's it's interlinked with different spheres, and uh we always look at the broader.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_05: So so with that, you were saying earlier that sometimes women in particular need more space and more time to get into that playful or erotic space.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I think that's that's absolutely true.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_05: So, do men and women do do they really differ in what gets them feeling sexy?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um from the book by Nagoski, Come As You Are.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's also Yeah, it's uh it's a good book about women's sexuality, which has really been understudied for years, for for decades, and she really brings it out to us.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And look, um this is what's happening.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we most of men, now we're talking in in statistic terms, but most of men's uh sexuality the desire would be spontaneous, just like I feel like it, I don't know, it's internal.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas uh women's would be responsive.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: So they need to be touched, to be talked, to be text, to be prepared to dinner, a bath, a massage.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there needs to be some something started for and then as a result the response, and both of them are strong.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not one is weaker than the other, but you have to understand uh that regarding women and women should, you know, um understand and try to to explain it, especially depending on the cycle as well.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and the menopause, you know, the menopause is also there.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_05: Uh course, yeah.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_05: That that kind of brings me to the next question.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_05: With the menopause, do our desires change?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_05: Because I know with the menopause also there's physical changes which make sex more painful or less less desirable as the act, yes, as much as anything else.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it would differ uh from women to women, but um recently Kate Winslet went to through testosterone.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hormone treatment, which she advertised.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was about one year ago that she advertised it because her sex drive, according to her, went back to normal thanks to this treatment.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: However, after um I I looked into the I read the research, it is the it shouldn't be the first choice.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: So hormonal treatment could be a good way to to if there is a loss of desire and if you would like to bring it back.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um but um it should be as you know parallel to perhaps some some therapies, some some community support, some um work workplace support as well.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_05: That's really because of course, yes, you're right, everything sex is not happening in a vacuum.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: It is so based on the internal and the external space.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_05: That just coming back to your point right at the beginning.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and then what about passionate sex and good sex, but doesn't lead to orgasm?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_05: Can that be considered good enough?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: It you see, if there's one thing uh that I want the listeners uh to take from uh from this show is that sex is not just about the the this the actual genital sex and it's not about the orgasm.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because if you fixate yourself on this performative part of sex, then it puts um it might be a good start, it could be interesting for some people it it's a good turn on, but for most of us who are humans, it puts a lot of pressure.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh one thing we know about orgasm is that it happens when your body is relaxed, and the more you can bring this to relaxation and put away the pressure, and I would also suggest to you um to couples to verbally or even writtenly uh speak it out to each other.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: We have the permission not to climax, you have the permission, I have that permission.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: If we don't feel like it, if today is not the day, there's always because uh there should always be space to back off, like oh you know what, it it um it brought up something in me and um can can That's a really good point.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_05: I because the way having this conversation, you do then look at the sexual space as a very fluid space, not just as I think I've almost been well, whether it's just brought up or just conditioned to think it is that the act and the want this sort of thing.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um because at the end of the day, what matters is what you feel inside, what you feel next to your partner.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, do you feel alive?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel playful?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to flirt?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to dance for him, you know, for for her?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is there's this um life going on because you can have sex ten times in a day and feel nothing.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that could be, you know, 10 ticks uh in the ten boxes, but then uh it would make you feel empty and lonely.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what I hear as well that um people report feeling lonely during the sexual act.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_05: That's really sad, isn't it?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it is.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_05: And and but again, such an important conversation to have.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_05: We're keeping Medina, we'll be back just after this.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Stress is inevitable, but how we handle it makes all the difference.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: One powerful way to manage stress is by activating the parasympathetic nervous system.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Your body's natural way of shifting from fight or flight to rest and digest it.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how do we do that?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's the question.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: The first technique that I'm gonna show you how to get there is the five-fi-five reading technique.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a simple yet powerful tool to calm the body and mind.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why did it work?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, also activity.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Beyond the physical benefit, the benefit of the practice also plays a crucial role in mental health by creating a safe space for relaxation, a moment to reset and recharge it.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Try one of these techniques today and notice how it changes the way you feel.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters after hours, where we're talking to Medina about what makes a good sex life.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_04: A really interesting conversation.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um talking about flirting, um, do you think it can ever be harmless if we're in a relationship and and there's harmless flirting?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_04: Is that can that be Do you think it could be harmful?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_04: That's a harm question.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_05: It of course it can be.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_05: I think it can be, yeah.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_05: I think it can be.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_05: If if you have issues that you haven't discussed and you're using flirting as a maybe as a means of testing the water outside that relationship, that it's it's loaded flirting, then.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_04: If it I think so, yeah.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you could say that it's harmless if it just makes you feel better and you have literally no thoughts about taking it any further.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: But I think you're right.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: I think flirting is about testing the water.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, definitely.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you think that thoughts about another person while you have your partner could be very harmful?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Could be.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: It depends.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very cultural as well, the definition of flirting.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: In in Western cultures, it will it's more of like topic.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's more verbal, it's more through, you know, direct eye contact and making compliments and stuff like that.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in Eastern cultures, it's more about just you know, looking, you know, that would be considered flirting or something to something much, much subtle.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we should take that into account.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And again, like like I mentioned, the the the you know, the families that are coming from eastern culture into the west and west and into the east, and how do they settle?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh for for somebody, like if if a western person goes to east and starts flirting with each other with uh everybody, he or she would be considered as as rude.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and in some colours as harmful, yeah.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how dare you're married, you know, how dare you talk like that to my wife or to my you know sister and stuff like that.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in in in West, it again, which which part of the West and which part of the UK we're talking to, you know, more or less conservative parts.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: But um uh it really, you know, uh this is one of the very interesting topics about flirting and whether it is actually harmful or harmless and even helpful for sexual life, it will vary.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the thing about long-term couples that we know for sure that this spark on this desire to flirt fades over time, and then uh you need to find other sort of sources of inspiration.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you are going out somewhere flirting, knowing what you want, that you are you're you're not like looking testing the water, but you are re-redevel re-establishing your sense of of who you are outside of this marriage because this is important.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: After a while, we tend to blend with our partner and see ourselves only as wife or husband, and this is great for intimacy and for friendship and being close.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: But if you want to sparkle that part, the sexual part, you need to feel yourself separate from your from your partner, yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And flirting is a good way, it's like, oh, they're interested, good to know.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I come back.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, um but it of course, I mean, but I believe to to answer shortly, if you suppress this desire to flirt and sort of just test the water and see for yourself, it will burst out on you.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when we have the you know the extramarital affairs that I don't know how it happened, I I didn't see it coming.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I I suggest like the small dosages.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you're you if you feel like it, if you're inclined to flirt.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a flirtatious person, yeah, yeah, you can't then suppress that.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_04: No, and so and some people flirt with their friends, and there's absolutely nothing in it.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's I suppose it's the intention behind it, like you say.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_04: It's a really difficult one.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_04: So kind of taking that a bit further, then if you're with a partner but you're thinking about somebody else, like really thinking about them.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: Really thinking about them, and kind of you know, in your mind where that could go um sexually, then should you really be with your partner?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_04: And on the other hand, should you should you then just kind of suppress that side and just think, oh well, you know, I'm with him, I just need to stay comfortable with this person, and that's a good suppress.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_04: So it's hard because what if you don't actually flirt, but you're just constantly thinking about somebody and you think, well, you know, there might be something.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: You see, again, we're coming back to this point that sexuality is about feeling independent.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um that you that you yes, you love this person and everything, but at the same time, you're a free human you're a free human being, and at least in your imagination and in your fantasies, you allow yourself to go as far as you as you can.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: I always I often invite my clients to go all the way till the end.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you're thinking about that person.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: What exactly do you think?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: What happens then, and then and then, and then what?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and they're like, oh my god, I'm so afraid it's gonna happen.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, it's not happening, it's still in your head.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: But once you live through this fantasy, it gets validated, and you see that very often our sexual fantasies are very good clues to understand our emotional needs.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so by listening yourself uh till the end, what do you actually want from this person that you are obsessed with?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, actually, I want him to say that uh you're the best woman in the world and you know the best partner, whatever.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now you and you get to understand.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be a clue.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying it's easy, that's for sure.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: It could be you could you could really get obsessed, it could get years, and and some people, let's admit it, they're attractive.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we and you know, as much as we love our partners, we just sit there and like totally fancy them.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: But as long as we allow ourselves at least to do it in our head, then it's it gives us the choice.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do I actually want this to happen or not?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because what differs us from serial killers and maniacs, they usually don't.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I hope it differs us.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: They they lack the fantasy part.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So before they kill, they don't necessarily fantasize about it.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: They just do it.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they just act upon whatever you know, the impulse that they have.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: We hopefully normal people, uh, we have this capacity to live through our fantasy and then to decide do I want to act upon it, do I want to go partially?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or no, actually, it doesn't suit me, you know, because once the person I had clients who said, I want to go for it, you know, I know what I'm I'm losing, I know what is at stake, but I want to go for it.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: So and then I just bring back the responsibility, you know.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you're aware of what is at stake, then it's it's up to you.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_05: The act of actually playing it through to the end, because I think if I were to do that, you then kind of go, Oh, we'd just be in the same position as I am right now.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_05: Great.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's revealing, and I think that's really that I love that point.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: It's that can I just so when you said if you take it through to the end, and actually what you all you might want is for that person in your mind that you're thinking about to say, I think you're amazing, like the best person ever.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that that's then a symptom about an issue in the the actual relationship that you have?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: That you want that person to tell you that really, you want your partner to say that you say uh it could be, and it also could be the could be the sign of many things.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Your partner could be, you know, there's there's so only so much how you that your partner can tell you how beautiful and how great and how amazing you are, and that uh some some partners don't do it for sure.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we you know, some things I told you 10 years ago, why should I repeat it?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love you, yeah, you know, like of course you're beautiful, like but what's what's your problem?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I might remember that in 2012.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone have said that, yeah.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: But then it could also be a sign um of loneliness in general, like like I said, the need for a wider community.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Some some of us um are more flirtatious, they're more you know, talkative, they're more into this playfulness, it's just the way they are.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's it's the type they have sexual, high sexual energy, if you like to call it this way.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if this type of people suppress it and think that this is wrong and that's gonna lead to this and da-da-da-da-da, they can they can sort of like freeze themselves, but they will freeze themselves against their partner as well.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you need to get this flow going.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very um complicated and you know.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think you're describing really well.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so kind of going to basic psychology now, it uh our attachment styles.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_05: We talk a lot about having secure attachments with our parents, insecure attachments, avoidant attachments.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_05: Um, how does that impact our relationships?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: It it always does.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just the the bottom line here is whether your current relationship is re-traumatizing you, bringing you back into this space where you were being avoided and you were the chaser and the other one is avoider, or does it actually heal you?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: So are you reproducing what you what actually was hurting you, or what, or do you have the relationship where where you know where you and where you can heal?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first part emotionally.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: The second part in sex it works in another way.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: It works it works a different way.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it could be the the out that our trauma, specifically our trauma of avoidance, could be a good resource for the sexual script that actually turns you on.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And in this particular sphere, you could be really shocked.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for for a long time.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: My my clients would there is no way, but I hate this in real life, but it's actually it really turns me on.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is because here you've got the agency, you decide.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to be, I choose to be avoided by you, I choose to be treated, I choose to be objectified.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh obviously in a safe place.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be with conversation and consent, yeah.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, with consent and everything.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: But although uh all out of a sudden, then um this person can actually get healed to the sexual experience of being avoided or being chased.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_05: I love that because of the choice.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_05: But then that makes a lot of sense because of the way that other third-wave therapies like NLP, they all work by replacing that memory and being able to explore what that trauma was in the first place.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_05: And then what you're doing is you're doing that with your partner.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_05: I think that that's really healthy.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so now sort of kind of basic questions.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_05: What if one person wants to use sex toys and the other one isn't quite so keen?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, when there's this yes or no question, I want to use it, and you don't want to use it, but I always uh invite the couple to answer what does it mean to you?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because when when there's you know this polarization of I don't want to use it and I want to use it, and you're a bad person, I'm a good person, da da da, there's no common ground.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's just they're they tend to get further and further apart from each other.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: But once they talk about the meaning, it's not just the sex toys, it could be anything.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Bring the third person in, or you know, go and do this, that.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: What would it mean to you to use the sex toys?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it would mean that I'm a free, um, I don't know, free soul who likes the experiments.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's the meaning.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, actually, this is the experience that I want for myself as well, but not through the toys.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: This is how I would want it, you know.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, that could be a possibility.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or um another thing with this yes or no questions is to usually if there is no answer to them, the answer is in the in the middle.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes and with this conditions.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_05: Uh-huh.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: No and this with this conditions.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_05: That's again really important.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um, we focus this show pretty much on heterosexual relationships.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but a lot of what you say can be transferable, but are there sort of specific or different needs we need to consider when you are supporting LGBTQ plus relationships?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, and one of the most common patterns that I see is um additional layer of shame.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there is usually shame around, you know, um around sex topic in general, but there is extra layer of shame in LGBTQ community over the sexuality, and I I'm really interested to see how this shame is being dealt with.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is it being suppressed?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is it being accepted by the other partner?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: I understand how it feels.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's not always the case.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's interesting how I watch like just get over it, like look at me, I got over it, and I'm fine, you know.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just just go, you know, just just come out to your grandma.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: What's the problem here, you know?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that's that's one of the things.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Also, for uh transgender and non-binary, it could be a a different you know, different feeling in the body that also is important to address in the relationship, uh being comfortable um with your sexuality and with your body.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_05: Which kind of brings me to the last question about being comfortable.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_05: The asexual being, the person who just is perfectly content without sex, is that healthy?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Great, yes, uh, as long as it's communicated, as long as it's understood, uh, and as long as both of the partners understands where um what's happening, actually, that it's nothing personal, and that this is how the the the person is.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're keeping with Dina and we'll be back just after Test the Trend.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_05: I teach burlesque.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_05: I'm a burlesque instructor because what I want to do is to get you to embrace your body for what it does, not just for what it looks like, but also burlesque encourages a sense of touch, which some some of my ladies may not even get without it being in a medical context.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_05: And so we encourage a lot of touch of the body, we encourage a lot of sass, and we encourage a lot of confidence.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_05: And burlesque is a safe space where you can just be whoever it is you want to be.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_05: Now, burlesque is going to be different depending on whereabouts you're learning it.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_05: In my case, I teach a new routine every week.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_05: In some classes, what they do is they build up one routine all the time and then they do their performance, and you're allowed, you're welcome to wear corsets and fishnets and suspenders and whatever it is that makes you feel really sexy.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_05: With my class, you're allowed to dress up however you wish.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_05: You can come dressed for a fitness uh exercise class if you want to, or you can dress in theme with the dance.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_05: So, one thing I would say about burlesque if you're trying if you're deciding to start or not, there are many types.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_05: You can have your straightforward burlesque, you can have chair dancing as well.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_05: That can be a bit more athletic.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_05: We use chairs, but not in the same way as a burlesque chair dance does.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_05: So, what I would suggest you do is if you are interested, go and find out from the community centres or wherever it is that you might see burlesque classes advertised.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_05: See if you can sit in on a class and see whether you like it, but also work out whether you like the style of instruction or not, or whether there's um variations in terms of the steps.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_05: So do your research beforehand.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_05: And if If you want a little bit of extra inspiration, I'm very proud to introduce my burlesque dancers in one of their performances.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_05: So let's take it away, ladies.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_05: There are so many things to reflect on and talk about.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_05: It is so much broader than that.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_05: And it comes with internal and external expectations.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_05: And it's only when we really understand all of those that we can really understand, I guess, how to have a good enough or a healthy sex life for ourselves.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_05: And that that just is really important.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_05: And that's just changed so much of my perspective.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_04: What about you, Jude?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly the same.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_04: That's the biggest thing that's come out of this conversation.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's been lots of things, but um just that if there's issues in a couple or polyamorous relationships, sex life, then it's not really about sex, it's about other things, and that's really shifted my perception on on you know on the whole subject, really.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and the other thing I as I said, I love the fact that you you sort of said that one partner could invite the other to listen to how they're feeling about something, and and it just as you say, is kind of a gentle way to start talking rather than getting upset and just saying, I really you know this is how I'm feeling.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's a really lovely way to start a discussion.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_04: So those two things kind of came up.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_05: And the word playful as well related to that.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_05: I love that.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, absolutely brilliant.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_05: And for me, what I liked was the two points about flirting, one of them, and then the attachment styles, how that actually that act, when you explore it and talk about it, can become a healing act in both ways.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_05: So the flirting can reveal what it is you're perhaps missing in your current relationship, and the uh avoidance um uh or anxious attachment style, if you then put a choice onto it, it becomes a lot more empowering.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_05: So that's that's absolutely brilliant.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_05: So, Medina, we're gonna hand it over to you.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_05: Can you give us your top tips for a good enough sex life?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'll quote Dan Savage, the American sex therapist, and he um invites so he uh says the the rule of at least use the rule of three Gs, which is uh good, giving and game.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll explain what it is.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: So good it means that um try to be good in sex, try to understand yourself, your partners, uh, your partner's sexuality, what do they prefer in this time, that time, you know.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: Try to really to to really become sort of an expert in this field.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um then by giving is thinking more about your partner than yourself.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: Be generous in terms of uh not just the sexual act, but be generous in terms of compliments, in terms of uh making the person feeling seen because this is usually at the core of the sexuality.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: And by game, he says uh be open to new experiences.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now uh that's a tricky part because every couple would have different, you know, new ideas that they want to try, and the other person might not even think about it.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: But he advises for the um rule of first timers.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: So give it give it just a try or give it a try to variation of it and see how it goes.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: So be open for it.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what hopefully um will keep your sexual life alive, because that's all that matters.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, Medina.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_05: I mean you can watch this woman's TEDx talk, so you do go for that as well.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_05: Uh where can we find you and learn more about you?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it's my uh website, it's Medina Demirbash Demirbash.com.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also if you just Google Medina Sex Therapist, it's the first thing that you will see my Facebook and my Instagram and all other social media.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_05: Amazing.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_05: It's really been such a pleasure speaking with you.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: Big honor for me to talk to you.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_05: You need to be back on the show really soon.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_05: And to everybody, have a good night and a healthy, good enough sex life.