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BRYAN KOHBERGER MURDER TRIAL BOMB: DNA FOUND UNDER VICTIM'S FINGERNAILS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Brian Coburger quadruple murder
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Speaker 1: trial bomb DNA evidence found under the victim's fingernails. What
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Speaker 1: does it reveal? I'm Ittsi Grace, this is Crime Stories.
0:19
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: I mean, at first it was rumors of murder suicide,
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Speaker 2: things like that. When you live in a small college town.
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Speaker 2: It occurred to not know exactly.
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Speaker 3: Four students from University of Idaho murdered.
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Speaker 4: One of the neighbors down there.
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Speaker 1: Of the girls called and said, I want to tell
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Speaker 1: you I'm a neighbor and Kaylee and Maddie are both dead.
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Speaker 1: That was then. This is now.
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Speaker 5: Brian Coberger's defense team has revealed a major curveball for
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Speaker 5: his upcoming trial. A newly unsealed court filing discloses that
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Speaker 5: investigators found three unknown profile from DNA underneath victim Medicine
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Speaker 5: Mogen's fingernails. Clippings from Mogan's left hand unearthed the samples,
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Speaker 5: but testing has not determined who they belonged to. Comparisons
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Speaker 5: of the profiles to Coburger's DNA were inconclusive. The accused
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Speaker 5: quadruple killer has not been confirmed or excluded as a
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Speaker 5: source Okay, letting.
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Speaker 1: Me understand, we are just now learning that there is
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Speaker 1: DNA evidence under one of the dead victim's fingernails. Think
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Speaker 1: it through. Let's follow this through to its logical conclusion.
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Speaker 1: It's not being named as Coburgers, so shouldn't the defense
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Speaker 1: be happy? But yet they're trying to suppress it. I
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Speaker 1: think I smell a rat straight out to Harmonia Rodriguez,
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Speaker 1: chief US reporter with Daily Mail, Harmonia, what's happening?
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Speaker 4: That's right, Nancy. This is more information we did not
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Speaker 4: know about because it had been sealed until this week.
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Speaker 4: Coburger's team now claims that there was a three person
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Speaker 4: mixture of DNA found under the nail clippings of Madison,
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Speaker 4: and they have now claimed that independent testing that they
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Speaker 4: did ruled out Coberger. However, the grand jury heard that
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Speaker 4: this evidence was inconclusive, so already there are some discrepancies
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Speaker 4: between what the prosecution has claimed about this DNA evidence
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Speaker 4: and what the defense is claiming. But as you said,
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Speaker 4: it is strange that the defense now wants this evidence
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Speaker 4: ruled out if it was inconclusive for Coburger, because they
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Speaker 4: could open the door for whether there was more than
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Speaker 4: one killer in this horrific crime.
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Speaker 1: Okay, you know what I understand she's saying. You're hearing
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Speaker 1: Hermania Rodriguez, chief US reporter with Daily Mail. Just Scott
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Speaker 1: Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University. Death Investigator
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Speaker 1: has investigated over one thousand death saying, author of Blood
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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon's star hit series Body Bags,
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott in a nutshell, what's happening.
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Speaker 6: Well, here's the problem that they're running up against, I think, Nancy.
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Speaker 6: When these samples were taken off of the left hand
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Speaker 6: of the victim at the morgue, there is this distinct
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Speaker 6: possibility that you could have commingle samples in here. And
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Speaker 6: what that means is that they're saying that they have three. Well,
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Speaker 6: we don't know what the source of these three are,
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Speaker 6: but the profile that they have are attempted to build
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Speaker 6: out of these three was not sufficient enough to rule
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Speaker 6: coburger in or out. So that really leaves them twisting
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Speaker 6: in the wind. Nancy, Okay, you know what.
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Speaker 1: To me, it boils down to this, three DNA sources
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Speaker 1: are found under the fingernails of a murder victim. Why
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Speaker 1: is it the defense is fighting tooth and nail to
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Speaker 1: exclude it. See, in my mind, if I were a
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Speaker 1: defensis running, which would never happen, I would be running
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Speaker 1: up in front of the courthouse, back and forth with
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Speaker 1: a big banner saying inconclusive, inconclusive, there's DNA under the
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Speaker 1: victim's fingernail, and it's not It can't be proven to
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Speaker 1: be my client. Hence it's somebody else. But they're not.
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Speaker 1: They actually want this suppress What more do we know
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Speaker 1: about this bombshell DNA evidence under the victim's fingernail?
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Speaker 7: In grand jury proceedings, an Idaho State Police forensic scientist
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Speaker 7: testifies that statistically, it can be assumed that Mogan is
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Speaker 7: one of the three individuals. Investigators went on to test
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Speaker 7: two hypothesis based on that assumption that both remaining profiles
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Speaker 7: belonged to unrelated individuals, or the Gonzavis, whom Mogan slept
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Speaker 7: next to that night, accounts for one of the profiles
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Speaker 7: and there is only one unrelated individual. The test results,
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Speaker 7: measured as likelihood ratios, all came back and conclude, falling
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Speaker 7: just above the State Police's standard for exclusion.
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Speaker 1: The DNA of three individuals is found under the fingernails
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Speaker 1: of Mattie Mogan. What does this mean? It's got to
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Speaker 1: mean something. Now you heard that in grand jury proceedings,
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Speaker 1: which are secret, we don't have a right to hear
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Speaker 1: all of that. This is for a jury to hear
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Speaker 1: this evidence. What does it mean? Three individuals DNA under
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Speaker 1: the fingernails of Mattie Mogan. Now their speculation that because
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Speaker 1: Kelly Gousov has slept with Mattie that night, slept next
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Speaker 1: to her, could some of this be her DNA? Joining
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Speaker 1: me right now is a very special guest, Susannah Ryan
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Speaker 1: Lab director and forensic DNA analyst at Pure Gold Forensics
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Speaker 1: and forensic DNA consultant at Ryan Forensics. Twenty five years
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Speaker 1: in the field of DNA and roology. Susannah, thank you
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Speaker 1: for being with us. You know, Susannah, when I first
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Speaker 1: introduced DNA in front of a jury, I insisted that
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Speaker 1: the scientists from the crime lab. Brilliant woman bring me
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Speaker 1: all of the evidence to show to the jury. It
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Speaker 1: looked like, oh gosh, undeveloped film that you just pulled
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Speaker 1: out of a camera, covered in dots and specs. I
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Speaker 1: quickly took it out of her hands and put it
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Speaker 1: away because it was blurry, It didn't make any sense.
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Speaker 1: The defense was just as worried about it as I was.
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Speaker 1: They never even cross examined on it. They're like, what
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Speaker 1: is that? Now? I'm asking the same thing, What does
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Speaker 1: inconclusive mean? Can you make sense out of what we're learning?
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Speaker 8: Hi, Nancy, Yes, So inconclusive in this sense means that
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Speaker 8: they're the data is very low level and they're unable
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Speaker 8: to to include or exclude coburger based upon their internal
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Speaker 8: laboratory guidelines. Now it is possible that other laboratories are
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Speaker 8: going to have other guidelines, and I think that this
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Speaker 8: is why the defense is fighting to try to keep
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Speaker 8: this out. They're afraid that the jury is going to
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Speaker 8: hear inconclusive and think, hey, you actually can't be excluded.
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Speaker 9: It might be him. There's just not enough DNA to
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Speaker 9: really link him.
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Speaker 8: And you know, reading between the lines of this motion,
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Speaker 8: it sounds like in other laboratories this exact same result
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Speaker 8: would actually be considered limited support for exclusion. So anytime
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Speaker 8: you have a likelihood ratio of less than one, it
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Speaker 8: points towards exclusion versus inclusion.
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Speaker 1: Now I've got a question for you, actually many questions,
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Speaker 1: and everybody on the panel jump in. We've got Susannah
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Speaker 1: Ryan with us, especially Joe Scott Morgan, please any questions
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Speaker 1: for her. But you know, Susannah, you said this last
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Speaker 1: couldn't come up with an answer. Aren't there specialty labs
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Speaker 1: that deal with degraded or let me say their word
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Speaker 1: is ineligible it's ineligible DNA? First of all, what does
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Speaker 1: that mean? It is ineligible DNA mean there's not enough
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Speaker 1: of it? But can't you replicate DNA regenerate it so
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Speaker 1: you have enough to make a comparison? First of all,
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Speaker 1: is there not enough? Is it degraded? For instance? Has
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Speaker 1: DNA been mixed with mud or blood to the point
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Speaker 1: where you can't get a DNA analysis? Or is DNA commingled? Here?
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Speaker 1: We got three DNA types? Are they commingled to the
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Speaker 1: point that you can't get a good answer? Air go,
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Speaker 1: couldn't this DNA be sent to another specialty or boutique lab,
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Speaker 1: you know, like auth RAM maybe to specialize this in
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Speaker 1: degraded or in eligible DNA.
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Speaker 8: Okay, that's a lot of questions.
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to answer them all.
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Speaker 8: But so ineligible typically means it's ineligible for upload to
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Speaker 8: codis right? So we can't put it into codis. Maybe
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Speaker 8: it's too low level. We don't have results at enough
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Speaker 8: low areas.
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Speaker 1: Why why because look, I'm just a trial lawyer. Why
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Speaker 1: can't I load it into codis? Why can't I compare it?
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Speaker 8: Because if it's a mixture, you're going to get so
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Speaker 8: many hits that you don't even know.
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Speaker 1: What to do with it.
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Speaker 10: Right.
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Speaker 8: So, and also the FBI has very particular rules about
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Speaker 8: what can be uploaded or cannot.
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Speaker 1: Hold on, wait, what about not loading it the ineligible
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Speaker 1: DNA into codis, but just comparing it to the victims
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Speaker 1: in coburger.
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Speaker 8: They do that, right, Yes, and they this is what
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Speaker 8: we feel.
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Speaker 1: That's yes.
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Speaker 8: And I believe when we talk about these three contributors,
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Speaker 8: one of them is clearly Madison Mogan, right, based on
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Speaker 8: what I'm reading, and that that doesn't surprise me under
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Speaker 8: her fingernails.
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Speaker 1: Well, it's under her fingernails exactly.
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Speaker 11: Yes.
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Speaker 1: And then what it sounds.
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Speaker 8: Like is there are two, at least two, you know,
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Speaker 8: very probably low level contributors. When I see likelihood ratios
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Speaker 8: where there are multiple individuals that have a less than
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Speaker 8: one likelihood ratio as reported in this motion, but they're
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Speaker 8: just a little bit less than one, you know, point
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Speaker 8: four point two things like that. That informs me that
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Speaker 8: probably the data, the amount of DNA material under the
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Speaker 8: nails foreign to Madison is just really low level.
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Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, way you got me drinking from the
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Speaker 1: fire hydrant, Suzanne O. Ryan, Okay, low level, low level. See,
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Speaker 1: I'd have to put that in terms that I and
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Speaker 1: the jury could understand. You mean, for instance, if one
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Speaker 1: of the DNA contributors to the evidence under Matty Megan's nails,
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Speaker 1: let's just pretend was killer Gun's solves. You say low level,
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Speaker 1: that means just maybe a bare touch. Maybe she touched
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Speaker 1: her hair, maybe she touched her PJ that maybe she
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Speaker 1: touched her arm in the NYE. Is that what you
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Speaker 1: mean by low level?
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Speaker 8: Yes? Absolutely, And so that's the other thing to be
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Speaker 8: aware of. Just because somebody has foreign DNA DNA not
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Speaker 8: consistent with themselves under their nails, that doesn't mean that
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Speaker 8: it got there through some struggle or scratching event. You know,
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Speaker 8: studies have been done on this and it is not
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Speaker 8: uncommon at all for a person to have somebody else's
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Speaker 8: DNA at a low level.
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Speaker 1: Under their nail. Crime stories with Nancy Grace guys, there's
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Speaker 1: another way to look at this bomb bomb torpedo. Let
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Speaker 1: me rephrase that a stink bomb has just been dropped
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Speaker 1: and Brian's quadruple murder trial. Three unknown DNA contributors found
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Speaker 1: under the nails of Mattie Mogan. Problem. We can't tell
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Speaker 1: who contributed them to Chris McDonald joining me. He and
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Speaker 1: I have been to the scene many many times. This
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Speaker 1: is near Here's jurisdiction. Former homicide detective with over three
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Speaker 1: hundred homicide investigations to his credit. I found him on
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Speaker 1: YouTube at the interview room. But he is also director
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Speaker 1: Cole Case Foundation. Chris, what about this? This marks the
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Speaker 1: first time that we are learning there is additional DNA
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Speaker 1: at the scene, and I believe the defense is all, wait,
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Speaker 1: they want this suppressed. There is a reason they want
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Speaker 1: to suppressed because this DNA hurts them. We're all, okay,
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Speaker 1: we're like the blind, the three blind guys, and we're
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Speaker 1: touching the elephant. You say, what are you feeling? One says,
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Speaker 1: describes the tail, one describes the foot, one describes the trunk.
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Speaker 1: We're in the dark here, but this is what I know, mcdona.
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Speaker 1: The defense wants this evidence out therefore I want it in.
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Speaker 1: I don't know what it is and I don't know
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Speaker 1: what it means, but the defense wants it out. That
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Speaker 1: means they think it proves something against their client. What
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Speaker 1: about this, mcdonna, we're just learning about this fingernail evidence.
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Speaker 1: This indicates to me that there is more DNA evidence
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Speaker 1: at that scene that we don't know about yet. Thoughts.
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Speaker 12: Yeah, Nancy, I would agree with you that. You know,
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Speaker 12: this is remember that old line. So there's a chance
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Speaker 12: to them that this is one of those situations from uh,
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Speaker 12: you know, the defensive perspective. They don't want to put
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Speaker 12: this type of evidence in front of a jury because
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Speaker 12: that jury may say, hey, well, you know, we can't
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Speaker 12: we can't be positive for sure based on what the
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Speaker 12: labb is telling us.
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Speaker 6: So you're right, I would agree with you.
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Speaker 12: This is probably the tip of the iceberg.
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Speaker 7: Goldberger claims he was driving his car as he often
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Speaker 7: did to hike and run and or see the moon
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Speaker 7: and stars.
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Speaker 8: Our defas team firmly and I mean firmly believes in
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Speaker 8: mister Coberger's.
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Speaker 13: In a sense.
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Speaker 1: Did you get that firmly believes? Okay, all right, I'm
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Speaker 1: glad she believes her client because blind fate is definitely
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Speaker 1: going to enter into this defense. Well that's not all
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Speaker 1: the shock and new claim that Brian Coburger is autistic
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Speaker 1: as snuck back into the courtroom Listen.
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Speaker 3: Coberg's defense team is also arguing that his autism diagnosis
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Speaker 3: should bar him from receiving the death penalty. The attorneys
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Speaker 3: claim that symptoms of his autism may prejudice jures against him,
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Speaker 3: citing Coberger's limited facial expressions and atypical eye contact as
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Speaker 3: things that could be perceived as a lack of remorse
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Speaker 3: or even disrespect in the courtroom. And Taylor specifically points
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Speaker 3: to the media labeling Coberger's expression as an eerie or
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Speaker 3: creepy stare.
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Speaker 1: Okay joining me. Doctor Bethany Marshall, high profile psycho alys
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Speaker 1: out of La, author of deal Breakers. You can see
15:38
Speaker 1: are on peacock now and you can find her at
15:41
Speaker 1: dtor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany He's never been
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Speaker 1: diagnosed as autistic, even though he has had extensive testing
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Speaker 1: in the past for his what was it White Snow
15:56
Speaker 1: syndrome he suffered when he was a teen, where I
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Speaker 1: guess or see or hear something like TV static. That's it.
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Speaker 1: He had extensive testing. Then he wrote about how it
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Speaker 1: made him feel that he felt no remorse, he had
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Speaker 1: no conscience, nothing bothered him. How About he's not autistic?
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Speaker 1: How about he actually is creepy, Nancy.
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Speaker 13: This is just the right amount of wrong, meaning that
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Speaker 13: the defense attorneys are noticing that he has lacks empathy
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Speaker 13: for the victims, which is a common symptom of predators
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Speaker 13: and serial murderers, and because of that, they're going to
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Speaker 13: have to explain that away. Like the jury is going
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Speaker 13: to notice that he's sitting there at the table with
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Speaker 13: dead eyes, and they're going to see the dead eyes
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Speaker 13: and they're going to say, what does this mean?
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Speaker 14: So now the defense is like.
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Speaker 13: Oh, it's autism, because when you're autistic, you notoriously do
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Speaker 13: not track with the feelings and emotions of others. What
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Speaker 13: I really think, Nancie, it just doesn't disservice to people who.
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Speaker 14: Are are autistic.
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Speaker 1: Okay, you know Philip Dubay joining me, LA County Attorney. Philip,
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Speaker 1: I've had so many cases where I look at the
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Speaker 1: jury and they have this horror look on their faces
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Speaker 1: right there, Oh, and I'd follow their gaze. The defendant
17:32
Speaker 1: would be looking at them and they'd be like, ooh, okay.
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Speaker 1: Then I had a case in a murder trial where
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Speaker 1: the defendant his attorney finally told him don't move your head.
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Speaker 1: Why because he had carved into the back of his
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Speaker 1: hair hit man number one. So naturally I kept walking
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Speaker 1: over to that side of the courtroom to make him
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Speaker 1: turn that way so the jury could get a good
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Speaker 1: look at the advertisement he placed that screened guilty on
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Speaker 1: the back of his head. So here we've got the
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Speaker 1: defense attorney an tailer concerned that if the jury even
18:14
Speaker 1: looks at Kyburger, they'll thank you's quote creepy. Why is that?
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Speaker 15: It's because of the outward symptoms, if you will, How
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Speaker 15: the people who are on the ASD spectrum present and
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Speaker 15: I can understand the concern. Unless you educate the jury
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Speaker 15: ahead of time so that they understand the symptom andtology
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Speaker 15: associated with ASD, it's very possible that they can interpret
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Speaker 15: it as evidence of guilt. When you have creepy eyes,
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Speaker 15: when you have the shark eyes, when you have that gaze,
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Speaker 15: that stare, it makes it look like you're empty and
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Speaker 15: vapid inside and purely homicidal.
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Speaker 11: They what you are orial.
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Speaker 1: You can maybe consider that. I mean, the guys made
18:58
Speaker 1: It's nearly thirty years old, and he's never once been
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Speaker 1: diagnosed as autistic until Anne Taylor diagnosed him as defense lawyer.
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Speaker 11: I on the ball, on the wall, Yeah, I on
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Speaker 11: the ball.
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Speaker 1: That's what I'm looking for. A tree is creepy, because
19:14
Speaker 1: he is creepy.
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Speaker 11: I understand that.
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Speaker 15: Then you need to rewrite the DSM amended and edit
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Speaker 15: it so that autism spectrum disordered no longer qualifies as
19:23
Speaker 15: an intellectual incapacity.
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Speaker 11: And unless and until you do like.
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Speaker 15: He qualifies under Atkins for an exemption from the death penalty,
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Speaker 15: that's the endgame.
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Speaker 1: Philip D. Bay does the DSM right. Wait a minute,
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Speaker 1: are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist? I thought you
19:40
Speaker 1: were trying it.
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Speaker 11: I am both.
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Speaker 15: I mean that's what defense. He is a.
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Speaker 1: Psychologist and psychiatrist. Life coaches.
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Speaker 11: We're social workers, life coaches.
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Speaker 15: We're pseudo intellectual psychologists, neuropsychologists, where all of it. We're
19:55
Speaker 15: trained how to detect the problems so we can get
19:58
Speaker 15: the appropriate experts commissioned to evaluate the client.
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Speaker 1: So I take that as no, you're not a psychologist
20:04
Speaker 1: or a psychiatrist. But in the DSM, does it allow
20:08
Speaker 1: your defense attorney to diagnose you as being the spectrum?
20:13
Speaker 1: Does it?
20:13
Speaker 11: That's a yes, no, of course no, of course not
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Speaker 11: see you be a doctor, and they did.
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Speaker 15: They got a neuropsychologists appointed who did extensive testing and
20:21
Speaker 15: came back with this result. It's not as if they
20:24
Speaker 15: just yanked it out of the firmament and said, our
20:26
Speaker 15: client is autistic or has Asperger syndrome or some other
20:30
Speaker 15: intellectual disability. It's all documented by the experts.
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Speaker 2: The news came in that the police are responding to
20:39
Speaker 2: a call of someone found unconscious before additional body.
20:46
Speaker 3: Coburger allegedly entered a home with six occupants and a dog,
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Speaker 3: only armed with a small knife.
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Speaker 1: Carmania Rodriguez joining US chief US reporter Daily Meil, Did
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Speaker 1: I understand this correctly? The defense attorney and Taylor wants
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Speaker 1: the DNA evidence suppressed so the jury never finds out
21:05
Speaker 1: that Matty Morgan had DNA under her finger nails from
21:08
Speaker 1: three people. They want that. They want the death penalty
21:13
Speaker 1: off the table because they now have diagnosed almost thirty
21:17
Speaker 1: years old, the PhD student, the THA teaching assistant, him,
21:23
Speaker 1: the guy that made incredible great grades and his held
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Speaker 1: down jobs him. They want the DNA evidence excluded, they
21:32
Speaker 1: want him declared autistic, and the death penalty off the table,
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Speaker 1: and now they want any mention of quote bushy eyebrows
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Speaker 1: disallowed in court.
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Speaker 4: And NCEE, the defense team seems to really be trying
21:46
Speaker 4: to control what a potential jury's going to hear in
21:48
Speaker 4: this case. Some may say they're just continuing to try
21:51
Speaker 4: to delay this trial. That's a schedule for August. I
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Speaker 4: also wanted to note they apparently have also diagnosed him
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Speaker 4: with an eating disorder obsessive compulsive disorder, and as you said,
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Speaker 4: they want the judge to bar any witnesses or the
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Speaker 4: prosecution from using the terms psychopath, sociopath, and bushy eyebrows,
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Speaker 4: which is really unbelievable because, as we have discussed here,
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Speaker 4: the surviving witnesses description of the suspect has been fundamental
22:21
Speaker 4: in the prosecution's case against Coberger, and of course usually
22:25
Speaker 4: in cases like this, a witness can describe what they saw.
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Speaker 4: So this really is a long shot for the defense
22:31
Speaker 4: to try to tell witnesses that they cannot say bushy eyebrows,
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Speaker 4: especially when it comes to the testimony of that surviving
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Speaker 4: witness that's going to be fundamental for the prosecution's.
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Speaker 1: Case, specifically Taylor, the defense lawyer demanding this.
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Speaker 5: Taylor also demands the descriptor bushy eyebrows be barred from testimony.
22:51
Speaker 5: Taylor claims that surviving roommate Dylan Mortenson's bedroom was covered
22:55
Speaker 5: in sketches of eyes, and according to Taylor, nearly all
22:58
Speaker 5: of them had prominent eyebrows she describes as heavy, voluminous, puffy,
23:03
Speaker 5: or perhaps subjectively bushy. Taylor claims that if Mortensen is
23:07
Speaker 5: allowed to use the term on the witness stand, it
23:09
Speaker 5: will be as damning as you're pointing to him and
23:12
Speaker 5: saying he is the man that did this.
23:14
Speaker 1: So let me understand, Debay, Coburger has bushy eyes. That's
23:21
Speaker 1: his signature style. So now the defense attorney wants to
23:25
Speaker 1: rule the eyewitness testimony out because she said the killer
23:29
Speaker 1: had bushy eyebrows.
23:31
Speaker 11: That's correct, because you got to understand something.
23:33
Speaker 15: It was a suggestive identification based on all the drawings
23:37
Speaker 15: and the sketches in her bedroom of men or other
23:40
Speaker 15: people with bushy eyebrows. And when you have suggestive identifications,
23:44
Speaker 15: they lead to misidentifications.
23:47
Speaker 1: That's not true. It could a suggestive identification. A suggestive
23:54
Speaker 1: identification is when the state suggests to the witness who
24:01
Speaker 1: they should identify or how they should identify the defendant
24:06
Speaker 1: the suspect. I don't know if you think I just
24:09
Speaker 1: fell off the turnip truck, but I have law degrees
24:13
Speaker 1: from Mercy University and NYU and tried over one hundred
24:16
Speaker 1: felonies in superior court alone, all violent. So don't try
24:21
Speaker 1: and contort the law with me, Dubet, don't. As a
24:26
Speaker 1: matter of fact, listen.
24:27
Speaker 7: Taylor once again argues that Dylan Mortenson's entire statement with
24:30
Speaker 7: the description of the suspect, should be excluded. Taylor reveals
24:34
Speaker 7: that Mortenson told police she frequently experienced lucid dreams where
24:38
Speaker 7: she was being kidnapped or chased, and was not sure
24:41
Speaker 7: if she was conscious or dreaming when she encountered the suspect.
24:44
Speaker 1: Joining me is Chris McDonough, veteran homicide detective, star of
24:49
Speaker 1: The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, have you ever heard
24:56
Speaker 1: I hate to throw a technical legal tournam at you
24:58
Speaker 1: like this, but such a on a bs in your
25:01
Speaker 1: life that the witness, the girl that survived, can't say
25:08
Speaker 1: the killer had bushy eyebrows. I mean, this, in addition
25:13
Speaker 1: to many other arguments, makes the defense almost laughable. But
25:18
Speaker 1: I want to remind everybody it wasn't laughable the morning
25:22
Speaker 1: that those parents got calls from neighbors stating your child
25:26
Speaker 1: is dead. It's not laughable. This is contorting the law.
25:31
Speaker 12: Yeah, and that's the bottom line, right, Nancy. I mean,
25:33
Speaker 12: you have done this, you know, like you said, hundreds
25:37
Speaker 12: of times, and I'm just waiting for the defense quite frankly,
25:40
Speaker 12: to start, you know, introducing narratives that this guy used
25:43
Speaker 12: to work at his local you know, animal shelter on
25:46
Speaker 12: the weekend, delivering puppies. I mean, we're down to this
25:50
Speaker 12: place where now the defense is arguing, you know, hey,
25:54
Speaker 12: we need to be specific about the types of words
25:57
Speaker 12: that can be utilized in the court of law. It's
25:59
Speaker 12: getting ridiculous, actually, and I think the judge is getting
26:02
Speaker 12: fed up with it.
26:03
Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about what they want suppressed. Doctor
26:06
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, I need you to explain this to me.
26:09
Speaker 1: They also want the word psychopath and sociopath barred from
26:14
Speaker 1: being mentioned in court. Now they have dug up a psychologist,
26:20
Speaker 1: doctor John Eden's, and he claims that those are not
26:28
Speaker 1: accurate diagnoses for Coburger and that the terms are unfairly prejudicial.
26:36
Speaker 1: What do those terms mean, doctor Bethany Marshall.
26:41
Speaker 14: Psychopaths and sociopath means that there is no attachment to
26:46
Speaker 14: the victim, there's no attachment to anybody else in their lives.
26:51
Speaker 14: So they sociopathy is a disorder of attachment. And so
26:59
Speaker 14: what we're going to see with the defense is that
27:03
Speaker 14: they're going to see that Brian Coeber, Poger of Brian Koeber.
27:07
Speaker 13: Was not.
27:09
Speaker 14: Connected to the victims in any real way.
27:14
Speaker 7: I don't like you he.
27:15
Speaker 11: Did a white color crime.
27:17
Speaker 16: This isn't a white color crime. This is this is
27:20
Speaker 16: people you work your whole life to get them to
27:23
Speaker 16: go to college and then they get killed where they're
27:25
Speaker 16: sleep that night. This guy like he just like traded
27:31
Speaker 16: insider trading, but his own company stops.
27:34
Speaker 1: It's not white Cole. Not only is the case rocked
27:41
Speaker 1: by three unidentified DNA evident samples under the fingernails of
27:47
Speaker 1: victim Maddie Mogan, the defense wants that suppressed. They want
27:53
Speaker 1: the death penalty taken off the table because now after
27:56
Speaker 1: almost thirty years, they have decided that Ryan Coberger is
28:00
Speaker 1: autistic end quote looks creepy. That's their words, not mine.
28:05
Speaker 1: They want the word psychopath and sociopath barred from evidence.
28:12
Speaker 1: They want any description of Coburger's bushy eyebrows by an
28:17
Speaker 1: eyewitness thrown out. The jury will never hear it.
28:21
Speaker 3: And now they want this and Taylor also has a
28:24
Speaker 3: problem with the word murderer. Taylor calls to prohibit any
28:27
Speaker 3: form of the term.
28:28
Speaker 11: Murder, murdered, murderer.
28:30
Speaker 3: Or murder weapon from the courtroom, except in charging documents
28:34
Speaker 3: and jury instructions. Taylor writes that the trial will serve
28:37
Speaker 3: to answer the question of if the killings at issue
28:40
Speaker 3: are murders and whether the murders were committed by Brian Coberger.
28:45
Speaker 3: Taylor argues that labeling Coburger as a murderer and asserting
28:50
Speaker 3: that any of the four decedents were murdered by Brian
28:53
Speaker 3: Coberger denies her client's right to a fair trial.
28:57
Speaker 1: Chryl lawyer Philip Debay joining me, wait a minute, debate,
28:59
Speaker 1: This is a murder trial, right, and Kinberger's defense doesn't
29:05
Speaker 1: want the word murder in the courtroom.
29:10
Speaker 15: Really, every state defines the names of all the parties
29:13
Speaker 15: in a criminal action. A defendant, for example, the people
29:18
Speaker 15: of the state of Idaho, victims, witnesses. You can refer
29:21
Speaker 15: to him as a defendant, you can refer to him
29:24
Speaker 15: as Brian, as mister Coburger. But when you refer to
29:27
Speaker 15: him as the psychopath, the murderer, the killer, it necessarily
29:31
Speaker 15: implies guilt before you put on one shred of evidence,
29:35
Speaker 15: and to avoid that type of suggest stability, you back
29:38
Speaker 15: off and refer to people by their names or by
29:41
Speaker 15: their legal title.
29:42
Speaker 1: That's not what the motion says. The motion doesn't just
29:46
Speaker 1: say he cannot be called a murderer, which of course
29:49
Speaker 1: under the law he can in opening and closing statements.
29:53
Speaker 1: But they don't want the term murder or murdered or
29:58
Speaker 1: murder weapon in the courtroom. I'm not talking about labeling
30:04
Speaker 1: Heiberger as the murderer, which of course they have the
30:07
Speaker 1: right to do definitely in closing statements. But the word murder,
30:11
Speaker 1: the word murdered or murder weapon they want excluded and
30:17
Speaker 1: disallowed to be spoken in the courtroom. That's what I'm
30:21
Speaker 1: asking you to address. Don't tell me this. When I'm
30:25
Speaker 1: asking you this, I know you're trying to avoid the question.
30:29
Speaker 1: So just answer if you can copy will go. So
30:33
Speaker 1: here's the deal.
30:34
Speaker 15: When you say the word murder, it necessarily implies that
30:39
Speaker 15: a crime has been committed by the defendant, as opposed
30:42
Speaker 15: to referring to it as a death, maybe even as
30:45
Speaker 15: a killing. But when you use the word murder, it
30:48
Speaker 15: necessarily encompasses malice of forethought, premeditation, and all the special
30:54
Speaker 15: allegations for the enhancement without putting on any evidence.
30:58
Speaker 11: And when you keep repeating a word murderer, murder, it
31:03
Speaker 11: sort of conditions the jury into saying, aha, we got him.
31:07
Speaker 11: We are convinced beyond a reasonable debt.
31:10
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're not really giving this jury any credit
31:13
Speaker 1: at all. It brings to mind the case of Travis Alexander,
31:20
Speaker 1: who was a young man that was stabbed nearly thirty times,
31:23
Speaker 1: some say more, but they were overlapping stab wounds, so
31:26
Speaker 1: we really don't know. Then shot in the head, then
31:28
Speaker 1: his killer, Jody Arius, left him to decompose naked in
31:32
Speaker 1: his shower. In that case, the defense, Jody Arius's defense
31:38
Speaker 1: moved to have the word victim barred from the trial.
31:44
Speaker 1: Let me understand what's happening to HARMONYL. Rodriguez joining us.
31:50
Speaker 1: The defense is now arguing that, in addition to DNA
31:53
Speaker 1: evidence exclusion and exclusion of the words bushy eyebrows, we're
31:58
Speaker 1: not going to hear the word murder in the Isn't
32:00
Speaker 1: that what the indictment says? Four counts of premeditated murder.
32:04
Speaker 4: This is again the defense has been building for months,
32:07
Speaker 4: this idea that Coburger cannot possibly get a fair trial
32:11
Speaker 4: because the way the media has covered this case and
32:14
Speaker 4: the years that has passed since it occurred. Now this
32:17
Speaker 4: is their latest attempt to say that it's already an
32:19
Speaker 4: unfair playing field for Coburger. So they say that barring
32:24
Speaker 4: these terms from the courtroom might mitigate what the media
32:28
Speaker 4: has done. But as you say, everything they're saying means
32:31
Speaker 4: that they basically cannot trust any.
32:33
Speaker 11: Trial to give Coberger a fair shot.
32:36
Speaker 4: So again the defense continues to try to delay the
32:39
Speaker 4: trial with these motions.
32:40
Speaker 1: They're going to have a hard time keeping the word
32:43
Speaker 1: murder out of the courtroom since that is in the indictment.
32:47
Speaker 1: I guess Philip Dubay and the defense toorney Ann Taylor,
32:51
Speaker 1: would advocate not reading the indictment to the jury, not
32:54
Speaker 1: letting them look at the indictment. That's how every case
32:58
Speaker 1: starts with the impaneling of a jury. The indictment is
33:01
Speaker 1: read out loud in courtroom, typically by the prosecutor and
33:05
Speaker 1: some jurisdictions of the judge. What do they say, just
33:07
Speaker 1: a beep boop. Coburger is charged with boob no discussion
33:13
Speaker 1: of murder. And they also don't want the word psychopath
33:16
Speaker 1: or sociopath mentioned in the courtroom. They're concerned that Coburger
33:21
Speaker 1: looks creepy, and they the defense is trying to say
33:25
Speaker 1: that's because he's autistic. I have worked with many, many
33:30
Speaker 1: people under the spectrum, under the spectrum, and they were
33:34
Speaker 1: not creepy at all, So I'm curious where they're getting
33:39
Speaker 1: that from. As a matter of fact, the inmates with
33:42
Speaker 1: Coburger have noticed that he's creepy and looks homicidal.
33:48
Speaker 10: Listen, this individual is described by other inmates in the
33:51
Speaker 10: facility has the look of Lance, the fellow who killed
33:57
Speaker 10: other people. There's this stare that we've heard about at
34:01
Speaker 10: the student union with the young ladies looking at him
34:05
Speaker 10: and him looking at them. I mean, there is something
34:09
Speaker 10: evil connected with this individual, as based on his own behavior.
34:22
Speaker 16: The person who did this crime looked at one of
34:25
Speaker 16: the victims and that are here to help you. If
34:27
Speaker 16: that's not malice, that's the most type of evil that
34:30
Speaker 16: you could ever hear.
34:32
Speaker 1: It shouldn't be rewarded.
34:33
Speaker 3: With the suit and a fresh air cut every time
34:36
Speaker 3: of Ben's wild.
34:38
Speaker 1: That's wild at this hour, as a defense tries their
34:43
Speaker 1: best to torpedo the state's case. Having DNA evidance suppressed,
34:50
Speaker 1: the jury will never hear about that, having the eyewitness
34:53
Speaker 1: Dylan Mortenson, having her id and her statement suppressed, having
34:59
Speaker 1: Bush eyebrows the words suppressed which obviously describe Coburger, having
35:06
Speaker 1: the word murder barred from a murder trial, having the
35:12
Speaker 1: word psychopathic sociopath disallowed in the courtroom. While the state
35:20
Speaker 1: is near being stripped of its evidence, we learned the
35:27
Speaker 1: disturbing emergence of something called Brian Nation.
35:32
Speaker 9: Since Coberger's arrest and the murders of Ethan Shape and
35:35
Speaker 9: Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen and Killiganzolves, a number of social
35:39
Speaker 9: media groups have emerged proclaiming his innocence. A subreddit called
35:43
Speaker 9: Brian Nation has recently been banned from the platform, but
35:46
Speaker 9: several Facebook groups with names such as Justice for Brian
35:50
Speaker 9: Coberger are still active. With thousands of members. At least
35:54
Speaker 9: one woman has sent Coburger love letters.
35:56
Speaker 1: According to miniate reports, fans have gone quote crazy over
36:02
Speaker 1: new photos of Brian Coberger, charged in the murders of
36:08
Speaker 1: four Beautiful University, Idaho students. This must be a dagger
36:14
Speaker 1: to the hearts of the victims' families. I don't understand it.
36:20
Speaker 1: Straight up to Chris mcdunna joining me, veteran homicide detective, Chris,
36:25
Speaker 1: I don't understand how it's like Luigi Mancioni being idolized
36:31
Speaker 1: and glamorized. One look at an actual crime scene could
36:38
Speaker 1: cure every member of Brian nation. These people have no
36:44
Speaker 1: idea what they're talking about.
36:46
Speaker 12: Yeah, they don't, Nancy, And this is kind of a
36:50
Speaker 12: shock to our society as a whole that we're even
36:55
Speaker 12: contemplating this conversation here, that he's having a mini fan club.
37:00
Speaker 12: I mean, just think about the verbiage that he used.
37:03
Speaker 12: If it's him, obviously he's innocent until proven guilty by
37:07
Speaker 12: a jury, but just think of that verbage. I'm here
37:10
Speaker 12: to help, and then think of the slaughter that you're
37:13
Speaker 12: talking about. You know, that's going to impact not only
37:17
Speaker 12: the families, but a community and quite frankly, anybody that's
37:23
Speaker 12: going to see those photographs in that.
37:25
Speaker 1: Court of law. Multiple posters in Facebook groups are dedicated
37:29
Speaker 1: to supporting the nearly thirty year old murder defendant, giving
37:35
Speaker 1: him a quote five star approval for his new mug shot.
37:42
Speaker 1: To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor forensics and star of Bodybags podcast,
37:47
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, can we just give all the members of
37:52
Speaker 1: Brian nation a reality check about what was found at
37:57
Speaker 1: this murder scene?
37:58
Speaker 6: I would love to, and I'm glad that my friend
38:01
Speaker 6: Chris brought up the term slaughter. I got some words
38:05
Speaker 6: for this defense attorney as well. When you begin to
38:08
Speaker 6: think this, you know what is she an English professor?
38:10
Speaker 6: We're going to start diagramming sentences now and defining what
38:13
Speaker 6: a Jaron is. This is absolute absurdity. My friend Chris
38:18
Speaker 6: used the word slaughter. I'll use the word also, butchery.
38:21
Speaker 6: When you begin to think about this, this is going
38:23
Speaker 6: to be a scene that is absolutely bathed in blood.
38:27
Speaker 6: And here if you like that one, here's another one.
38:30
Speaker 6: When that jury isnt paneled and they're sitting in there,
38:33
Speaker 6: defense council knows that these photographs are coming down the track.
38:37
Speaker 6: It's like a train that cannot be avoided, and they're
38:40
Speaker 6: going to try to get some of these excluded. But
38:42
Speaker 6: when that jury sees what is headed their way, when
38:46
Speaker 6: they see these grotesque images of what was done to
38:51
Speaker 6: these college students, it will make them absolutely petrified that
38:57
Speaker 6: they're in the same room with this individual you talk
39:01
Speaker 6: about stairs. Their heads are going to be on a
39:04
Speaker 6: swivel and they're going to look at this guy sitting
39:06
Speaker 6: on the table. Ann Taylor knows that that's coming, Nancy.
39:10
Speaker 6: And when these investigators get up there and they begin
39:12
Speaker 6: to describe what they saw, it's going to be unbelievable.
39:16
Speaker 6: Just think about the witnesses that actually found the body.
39:20
Speaker 6: They're going to be powerful in this case. That's why
39:24
Speaker 6: they're retreating, That's why they're doing all this. They're trying
39:27
Speaker 6: to pull out all the stops because when it comes
39:30
Speaker 6: down to it, this is going to be one of
39:31
Speaker 6: the most ghastly things that we have seen in many,
39:35
Speaker 6: many years.
39:36
Speaker 1: Susannah Ryan with me Live, director forensic DNA analyst at
39:40
Speaker 1: Pure Gold Forensics. Susannah, in your world, you see the
39:46
Speaker 1: clinical analysis of blood DNA and more. Do you ever,
39:53
Speaker 1: I do disassociate what you're looking at what it really
40:00
Speaker 1: is blood from a murder scene, because it's kind of
40:06
Speaker 1: easier to get through if you don't think about what
40:10
Speaker 1: the victims went through.
40:12
Speaker 8: Yes, absolutely, I don't think I could do my job
40:15
Speaker 8: if I were constantly thinking about, you know, out of
40:20
Speaker 8: the evidence that I'm looking at, get to be as
40:23
Speaker 8: bloody or as torn up or you know, whatever it is.
40:28
Speaker 8: I definitely compartmentalize that that's my work and I don't
40:33
Speaker 8: spend a lot of time thinking about those things, especially
40:36
Speaker 8: like I said in the laboratory, because I need to
40:39
Speaker 8: be focused on what I'm doing and make sure I
40:41
Speaker 8: do it properly. And if I'm thinking about what this
40:44
Speaker 8: person went through for the evidence item to look like
40:48
Speaker 8: it does, I'm not going to be able to objectively
40:52
Speaker 8: complete my work.
40:53
Speaker 1: Well, you're right, Susanna Ryan. Right now, the Brian Koberger
40:57
Speaker 1: defense is doing everything it can to sanitized, to airbrush
41:03
Speaker 1: what this case is about. It is about the murders,
41:07
Speaker 1: the gruesome butchering, as Joe Scott said, a four innocent, beautiful,
41:17
Speaker 1: young University Idaho students murdered in their beds. According to insiders,
41:24
Speaker 1: so Coburger could see quote what it felt like we
41:29
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds, and now we remember an American hero.
41:35
Speaker 1: Police officer Christopher Morton, Clinton, p D. Missouri, shot and
41:39
Speaker 1: killed in the line of duty Army National Guard VET.
41:43
Speaker 1: Survived by parents Daryl and Terra, siblings Derek and Lindy.
41:50
Speaker 1: American hero police officer Christopher Morton. Nancy Gray signing off
41:57
Speaker 1: goodbye friend
42:01
Speaker 14: Boo.