Latest / Sarah Knows Support Workers / The Hidden SIL Problem No One Is Talking About: Rostering & Claiming

Transcript

The Hidden SIL Problem No One Is Talking About: Rostering & Claiming · Sarah Knows Support Workers

0:00
Hi everyone, It's Sarah from Sarah.
0:02
No support workers today. I've got Josh now.
0:04
Josh, the little secret is, is I've actually seen you present
0:08
before. So the idea that I got you on
0:10
the podcast today to talk about ways we can improve our
0:13
businesses in the NDIS sector, I'm thrilled.
0:15
So let's get cracking. What do you reckon?
0:18
Yep, looking forward. To it.
0:20
All right, let's go. So what led you into the
0:22
disability support space and how did you find this path to
0:27
becoming a director at result? Yeah, and it's a funny question
0:32
and it's the first time anyone has ever asked me, has ever
0:37
asked me that I came into disability from quite a weird
0:40
angle. So like the majority of people
0:42
that I encounter came into this space for very specific reasons.
0:47
They either felt a, a specific calling or normally it's because
0:52
they've had somebody in their life with a disability and
0:55
that's what's led them to get involved in this space.
0:58
For me, professor, I came into it very, very differently.
1:00
I got started in disability because my friend was working at
1:05
a disability software provider. So I got into disability because
1:08
I wanted to work with my friend, which is a very, very unusual
1:11
way to come into this industry. So like forever, I'll ever, I'll
1:16
forever feel like an outsider within this industry.
1:19
And sometimes I think that's a good thing to have people that
1:22
come in and provide a very different a different
1:25
perspective. So, yeah, always hearing
1:27
people's very impassioned, impassioned reasons for coming
1:31
into this space again, I always feel like a little bit of
1:33
imposter here that and that's how it's always going to be.
1:35
And and, and I think that's that's a good thing are.
1:38
You guys still friends? Yes.
1:40
Or actually he's one of the other directors of Resolve.
1:42
So yes, yes, we're friends about 20 years and yes, continue.
1:46
So before you got to resolve, you've had a multiple different
1:50
roles in your career and one of them being project management
1:53
and some big picture government strategy stuff.
1:56
Bear with me, it's not my sector.
1:58
How did you use all the experiences that you had
2:01
previously to what you do today? Yeah.
2:04
So I think that's what I was talking about, where sometimes I
2:06
think it's valuable to have people in the industry that
2:11
coming up from very different directions.
2:13
So I've had a very targeted career.
2:18
I was never one of those like people in high school that knew
2:20
what they were they were going to do.
2:21
I was always so jealous and continued to be jealous of those
2:23
people that knew where they were going to go because I've never
2:25
really worked without myself. I think it's been very helpful
2:30
to see a lot of different industries and government and
2:34
then be able to take a lot of those lessons and apply them
2:38
into this specific specific space.
2:40
And that's even how Resolve can't be born in terms of
2:43
through our experience at at Lumi, a disability software
2:46
provider and working with a lot of different providers like sill
2:49
providers, we could see certain issues and different ways to
2:53
solve it, to solve them. A lot of that became because
2:56
we're exposed to a lot of different ways of solving issues
2:58
and weren't really looking at it through a specific lens of
3:03
disability industry, if that makes sense.
3:06
Yeah. So was there a moment when you
3:07
realized this sector needed a better system?
3:11
What was the moment when you realized this sector needed
3:13
better systems? Yeah, I think being located it
3:16
wasn't necessarily about better systems.
3:19
I think it was about a different way of doing things.
3:21
So the, the angle that we come out at is really around.
3:24
So my experience we'll talk about was from a sealed provider
3:26
perspective because that's, that's, that's what we do.
3:28
And I think through for the last 7-8 years working with sealed
3:33
providers is it was, it was actually the solution here,
3:36
wasn't it wasn't a better system, it wasn't more training.
3:41
It actually required a different a different type of thinking and
3:45
a different type of approach to actually solve the fundamental
3:49
problems that exist within Silk. Yeah, that's it is a an eye
3:55
opener silk and you like I think the reason why I find your
4:01
business so intriguing is because I'm an ex rosterer so.
4:05
But that's good. But that's, that's, that's,
4:08
that's what we love to, to help is, is the operational people
4:11
and and rosters because you're trying to solve a problem,
4:16
you're trying to solve a puzzle that's missing about 10 or 20
4:18
pieces. You know what I mean?
4:19
In terms, a lot of it is trying to make people feel easy about
4:22
it. That I have cried into
4:24
cheeseburgers over rosters. I have, and I will always admit
4:29
that when it comes to leadership.
4:31
So when people hear the word leadership and imagine bosses in
4:35
offices, but in your world, leadership looks a little bit
4:38
different. How do you define leadership in
4:40
the disability support services and seals in your operation?
4:45
Yeah. I, I think leadership in
4:48
disability is very different to what that means in, in other
4:52
industries because of the nature of the people you're serving,
4:56
the nature of the people of the work, but also because of the
4:58
industry itself. I think the biggest thing for me
5:00
from a leader leadership perspective, what I look at,
5:03
particularly SEAL providers is kindness to themselves and their
5:07
team in that what, what we're what we're trying to achieve in
5:13
SEAL. And it doesn't matter the
5:15
support worker all the way up roster is whoever is what you're
5:20
trying to do is so bloody hard, like it is, it is impossible to
5:24
get right. And leadership for me is
5:26
recognizing that you're operating within a difficult and
5:30
flawed system and it's always going to be really hard to get
5:34
it right. And so I think kindness and
5:38
generosity to everyone that we're working in a very
5:40
difficult system. We're never going to be able to
5:42
get it right. And we need to support each
5:44
other to make sure that we're delivering the best outcomes for
5:48
while we're all here, which is the people that are providing
5:50
support to. With leadership, did you fall
5:53
into leadership or was there a strategy and.
5:56
No, there's, there's really like, like I said, I've never,
6:00
I've never really been one that's gone after a specific, a
6:02
specific direction. I've just always looked at the,
6:05
the problems that were in front of me and tried to solve them.
6:09
Always been like a problem solver.
6:11
So like, again, sometimes leadership is just like where we
6:14
end up, but I've always come from the approach that whatever
6:17
I'm doing, and again, I don't make like I don't head in a
6:21
specific direction, but it's like wherever I'm there, I'm
6:24
trying to, I'm looking for problems to solve and I love
6:27
solving problems. Sometimes that that means I'm in
6:29
a leadership position to do that.
6:31
So we've resolved it's not just having handing over a report
6:35
because the report is only so much.
6:37
And like you said, you, you love a problem and so do I.
6:40
How do you dive into it? Because you're not just, it's
6:43
not just like report writing is more, it's also about the team
6:47
as well that provides the care for the people that we serve.
6:49
100% and and like we're three years in now and I still find it
6:53
hard to explain exactly what it is if what it is that result
6:56
does. But yeah, it's definitely not a
6:58
report or training. So Resolve is three of us,
7:02
myself, Rick, the friend I was talking about, and Adam, who's
7:05
the 3rd founder of Resolve. Adam started as a support worker
7:09
in SEAL and went on a very long journey.
7:12
So he became A-Team leader and all the rest of it.
7:14
But before joining Resolve, he had a consultancy where he'd
7:18
worked with SEAL providers, training them on his exact
7:21
approach, providing all the guidance and then moving on to
7:23
the next. And what he was finding was that
7:25
providers weren't able to to keep up with the magnitude of
7:29
change. Because like, as you well know,
7:32
even before we talk about scheduling, which is its own
7:34
nightmare, but creating a roster for a SEAL house in a shared
7:39
funding environment is extremely difficult.
7:42
And always requires constant upkeep and so that's why resolve
7:47
became what we what we are in terms of when we looked at the
7:50
particular problem, the solution wasn't another software solution
7:54
out there. It wasn't training or or
7:57
consultancy is what still providers needed was someone
8:01
that's down in the weeds with them to actually help solve
8:05
their problems. And so that's how what we
8:07
operate is we develop the rosters with the team leaders.
8:10
So the people that are directly providing the support that
8:13
really understand the rhythms of the house.
8:15
We develop a roster in in collaboration with them that is
8:20
also respectful of the amount of funding available because at the
8:23
end of the day, rule bound by a certain set of rules which the
8:26
NDI has provided. So we work with them to develop
8:29
a roster that makes sense from a funding perspective that
8:33
respects the needs of the people in the house and is also
8:36
attractive to support workers. I'm sure you could make some
8:39
sort of mathematically perfect roster that's a bunch of three
8:41
hour shifts, but no one wants to do that.
8:43
So it's about respecting those three things and then also
8:47
working with them across the whole journey so that we can
8:50
make sure that we're claiming correctly every single week
8:53
because it's those two areas where we really see.
8:55
So we we work with providers for the long term.
8:59
We become part of their business and what we try to to do is work
9:04
throughout that organization to add a couple of those missing
9:08
pieces to the puzzle that I was talking about because SEAL
9:12
providers across the board are trying to solve an impossible
9:16
problem. Do you think a lot of it is
9:19
because you're external, you get to pull away from the things
9:23
like all the cut that gets in front of it?
9:25
Like sometimes I feel like when you roster, there's things that
9:28
get in front of you that aren't really an issue, but if you're
9:31
looking at it externally, they're not going to be your
9:34
issue because you're able to see the problems and the gaps that
9:37
they have. Yeah, 100%.
9:38
So like, so basically, fundamentally, when we look at
9:41
seal providers and we've been invited by over 200 providers
9:44
now to look at their rostering and claiming in almost every
9:48
single instance, they're having significant issues and we're
9:52
able to solve for that. So why are we able to solve for
9:56
that when we work together as opposed to a seal provider doing
9:59
it by themselves? And it's exactly what you're
10:01
talking about. We're able to focus just on seal
10:05
rostering and claiming. It doesn't matter where you are
10:07
in an organization, you're always going to get pulled in a
10:09
million, a million different directions.
10:11
We're able to focus really on the on the rostering and
10:14
claiming aspect. We're not having to deal with a
10:16
lot of the other noise. We can just deal in solving the
10:19
problem and then take those solutions to then work
10:23
collaboratively with the provider to put them in place.
10:26
And so, yeah, you could have, you could have nailed it better.
10:29
It's being able to sit outside and be able to work on those
10:33
problems without all the distractions and getting pulled
10:36
in the in all the directions, doing a lot of that work.
10:39
And then being able to have a conversation with like 95% of
10:42
the job done and allowing providers then to make the right
10:45
decisions based on that information.
10:48
Feel like as providers we tend to put our hearts first, so we
10:53
will put that extra hour in. That person needs a little bit
10:57
of more support without reflecting back that it never
11:00
matched the rock and we got ourselves into some strife
11:03
because we're nice people. That's and that's fine, but
11:08
sometimes being a nice person then ends up costing the
11:11
organization hundreds of thousands of dollars, which then
11:14
prevents you from actually truly helping people, if you know what
11:18
I mean. And so there's definitely
11:19
situations and there's definitely a time and place for
11:22
providing additional support over and above the plan.
11:25
And we very much encourage it in a lot of situations.
11:28
But it has to be a, it has to be a conscious decision, if that
11:32
makes sense in terms of, OK, we're making this decision and
11:35
we we're respectful that it's going to cost this much to the
11:38
organization. And knowing all that, we're
11:41
still going to do it as opposed to well, we just need to add a
11:45
couple extra shifts here for for various reasons.
11:48
It's such a skill set to put it together and especially with the
11:53
amount of churn that our sector goes through, there's a lot of
11:56
people that come in and out. So the people that you were
12:00
supporting last year might be a different House leader this
12:04
year. So it's that consistency.
12:06
And then I feel like as a sector we're not very good with
12:10
building up the professionalism of getting it to that point
12:14
where somebody can take over quite easily and become the next
12:17
House leader. Well, well, it's impossible.
12:20
Well, it's really hard to do that because of the churn, if
12:22
that makes sense in terms of. And so that's another area where
12:27
we're able to help providers because Resolve is always there.
12:29
So we're going to be able to provide a consistent process so
12:33
that inevitably when people move out of an organization, we're
12:36
going to be there to support the new people that come in with an
12:39
established process. That's going to take away some
12:43
of the more painful aspects of what they're doing and allow
12:46
them just to focus on what's called or what they're trying to
12:48
achieve. While we're here, let's talk
12:51
about rosters because this is a this is a spot for me.
12:54
Lots of providers see rostering as admin, but why is it knowing
12:59
your roster actually does require elements of leadership
13:03
and skill sets? Yeah.
13:05
So I think it's so critical to be able to understand your
13:09
roster and to ensure that that rosters fitting within the
13:13
funding available. Because as soon as the roster is
13:16
not correct, then it's it's not matching the funding available.
13:21
Then it can only be one or two things.
13:23
It's either non compliant as in your, you're not in line with
13:27
the, the, the the funding available.
13:30
So you're actually like providing a lot of the you know,
13:32
you're under servicing, sorry, or you're over servicing.
13:35
So sorry, you're not, you're not non compliant.
13:37
Sorry, you're under servicing to the funding they're available.
13:39
So you're actually disadvantaging the participant
13:41
in a lot of cases or you're over servicing and costing the
13:45
organization money. So like getting that core roster
13:49
right is so essential because on the other side, the roster is
13:54
driving the claiming, which then can lead to non compliance and
13:58
can also directly impact the participant.
14:01
So for example, let's say there's 10 thousand $10,000 a
14:05
week of funding for a participant, however the
14:07
roster's only 8000, you're claiming 8000.
14:11
Well, by the time you get to the end of the plan, there's still a
14:13
bunch of money sitting there that should have actually been
14:16
support for the participant. And then it actually gets worse.
14:20
Is that when that plan becomes to be re evaluated in a lot of
14:24
cases, well then that amount is going to be taken out because
14:27
it's well obviously this person need that money.
14:29
So it's so critical, you know, the rostering and claiming is
14:32
actually like a really fundamental part and can have
14:35
significant impact on the participant themselves if we
14:37
don't get it get it right. And so, yeah, it's just such an
14:41
essential piece and actually has direct ramifications to the
14:46
person, not to mention the actual the roster is the vehicle
14:50
for the day-to-day support for the person.
14:52
So it's so important that you actually get that right.
14:55
It sits within their funding and also it's respectful of the
14:58
rhythms of that specific house. I feel like no day would be the
15:03
same for you. And the reason why I say that is
15:05
because when you enter into a new service or a new house and
15:10
you see the roster and you and you're matching it against a
15:12
rock and does your mind explode? Like this is the problem that
15:16
I've got. Yeah, 100%.
15:18
And I think one thing that a lot of people aren't aware of is how
15:21
much change occurs within a SEAL house.
15:23
So in terms of within a SEAL house, it's not like you said a
15:27
roster at the start of the year and then that's the, you know,
15:29
there's nothing more to do. So many things can occur which
15:33
leads to the roster needing to change.
15:35
And so this is another problem which a lot of providers have is
15:38
just being able to keep. So it's hard enough to get the
15:41
roster right, but the volume of changes that occur and every
15:45
time a change occurs requires a new roster.
15:47
So if a, if a new person comes into the house or a person
15:51
leaves, OK, we need a new roster.
15:53
If the funding changes for one of the people in the house, we
15:56
need a new roster. If the care needs change, the CP
16:00
schedules change, we need a new roster.
16:02
So there's so many different events that lead to rosters,
16:06
rosters requiring adjustments. And then obviously when you
16:10
start multiplying this across a large number of providers and a
16:12
large number of houses is, is yes, in terms of there's such a
16:16
volume of change that is required no matter how as you
16:19
are. You know what you said at the
16:22
beginning of this, which you know, got my ears picked up
16:26
about rosters, making sure that we've actually got aligned in
16:29
our seals, having rosters where support workers actually want to
16:33
work. We're not having a roster of
16:35
just three hours. And I 100% agree with you
16:38
because at one point when I was rostering for or a person we
16:43
served in home, they they wanted the big hours.
16:46
They didn't want two hours. They wanted the 8 hours, they
16:49
wanted the nights, they wanted the weekends.
16:51
They wanted it to be able to make sure that they could have a
16:53
sustainable life. Like there were some people that
16:56
I had on the roster that would only work probably 3-4 days.
17:00
And that was because they had enough hours within their roster
17:03
that they didn't have to work 7 or, you know, 5.
17:06
Yeah, and this is saying that's like, so like on the surface,
17:10
what Resolve does is okay. Well, we, you know, a big part
17:13
of what we do is work with teams to get the rosters right and get
17:16
the and get the claims correct. Okay.
17:19
But all of these attacks, all these activities are very human
17:23
in nature, OK, We've got the roster itself, which needs to
17:26
align to has to be respectful of the human beings that we're
17:29
providing support, support for and the rhythms, because again,
17:32
we all have different rhythms and different times we like to
17:34
wake up and whatever. And not just for the people in
17:37
the house, but also as we're talking about here, for the
17:39
support workers. So even something like the
17:41
roster creation is actually a very human activity.
17:46
And, and it's, it's by no means, I'm not going to say it's, it's
17:50
nothing akin to actually providing support to the
17:53
individuals in the house that, that, that who deserve the
17:56
ultimate respect, but everyone plays their part within a
18:00
disability organization to actually help the person you're
18:04
providing support with. And even things that feel pretty
18:08
like mechanical or financial or administrative, like a roster,
18:13
is actually a deeply human process and needs to be
18:17
respectful of all the impacts it has on people both in the house
18:20
and those providing the support. It's, it's huge because when you
18:25
think about it, it does relate to money.
18:27
So for our support workers, they want a really lovely roster that
18:31
you know, they can go live their best life.
18:34
You got the people that we serve that their money is going into
18:37
this house that pays for our support workers, pays for the
18:40
house, pays for a living. Then you got to provide a hoping
18:43
after they've paid their support worker that they've got a little
18:46
bit leftover for profit. So when you were going down this
18:50
path and you're working with providers without mentioning any
18:53
names, what is one of your biggest wins that you've had for
18:57
a provider where they were able to save because they rostered
19:01
differently? Yeah.
19:03
So I think that the biggest thing for us is about trying to
19:08
make everyone's lives a bit easier because the reality is
19:11
still is impossible. It's a broken model.
19:14
If you look at the the benchmarking statistics that
19:18
show you like how successful because like for those people
19:20
not in the industry, they look at, you know, all the stuff in
19:22
the media about fraud or NDIS that I think anyone involved
19:26
with the NDIS must be making millions of dollars.
19:28
But if you look at the SEAL providers, it's just not the
19:30
case. Like no one's making money in
19:32
SEAL. Very few people are making money
19:34
in SEAL and even those that are making money are making very,
19:36
very little. It's extremely hard and everyone
19:41
thing to a certain extent feels like, yeah, it's just too hard.
19:45
Like how how can we do this? The biggest, the thing that
19:51
really drives what what we do is taking a little bit of that
19:55
pressure off and making everyone's life a little bit
19:57
easier. Like it's, it's this is
19:59
incredibly hard. No seal provider can do this
20:02
well. OK, so stop demanding perfection
20:06
or even good. It's just not possible.
20:09
And so the biggest thing for us is being able to listen to our
20:11
clients across the board and hear their responses about that
20:15
their life is easier. So some of our smaller clients,
20:21
the owners have been able to take a holiday without not
20:24
thinking about their business for for a week or two.
20:26
You know what I mean, in terms of because everyone's just their
20:29
lives are a little bit easier and they understand they've got
20:32
someone supporting them like that.
20:33
To us, that's the biggest thing. And that that's what we're
20:36
really trying to achieve from a financial aspect.
20:39
Last year we delivered over $10 million in savings to our
20:42
clients. OK, so that's, that gives you an
20:44
idea of how big this issue is. When I say no one's getting it
20:48
right. This is the level of rostering
20:51
issues and claiming issues. And when I'm talking about
20:54
claiming, I'm talking about providers not getting paid for
20:58
the support that they're delivering.
21:00
Like if this happens in so many cases in terms of that providing
21:03
support and due to breakdowns across the methodology, they're
21:07
not even getting paid for that, you know, which is part of the
21:10
reason why everyone's having these these difficulties.
21:12
And so this like rostering, claiming workflow is something
21:17
that's costing providers so much money and causing so much
21:21
stress. And you know, people don't love
21:24
and disability when you talk about money, but this is how we
21:27
provide support to people. So for us, like that's about
21:30
that's a lot of money that we've been able to put back into the
21:33
industry, which then is going to translate into more, more
21:37
training for support workers, solving maintenance issues in
21:40
houses, being able to buy your own transport so you don't have
21:43
to rely on third parties. Like money means something in
21:46
disability and and money is the vehicle to actually providing
21:50
support to more people and providing a higher quality of
21:54
level of support to more people as well.
21:57
Yep. So have you got any tips that
22:00
you would give anyone when it comes to starting off when
22:04
they're looking at their rosters because like what to do and how
22:09
to do it better? I think the most important thing
22:11
when looking at a roster is understanding that it needs to
22:15
match the funding available, which sounds pretty obvious.
22:18
But I think for those that are listening to us, to these that
22:22
are responsible for developing the rosters is I guess my
22:25
message to them is what you're trying to do is, in our opinion,
22:30
practically impossible for you to do, right?
22:32
So my biggest advice is when you're trying to get this right
22:36
and you can't get it all aligned, give yourself a break
22:39
because nobody is. Is that if that makes sense?
22:41
Like there's a lot of times, like over the last year where we
22:43
work with different organizations and we've
22:45
identified fundamental issues in terms of rostering and claiming.
22:48
And those organizations have decided to look at that problem
22:52
because part of what we do is a health check, which helps them
22:54
understand exactly what's going on.
22:57
And so when they understand the magnitude of what's happening,
22:59
the first thing they do is, is go, oh, OK, well, I guess we've
23:02
got to try to sort this out ourselves.
23:04
Sometimes it's two weeks, sometimes it's two months,
23:07
sometimes it's six months. But inevitably we get a phone
23:09
call saying, hey, Josh, I think it's time for me to eat humble
23:15
pie. And it's like, no, no, no,
23:17
there's no, there's no humble pie to be eaten because it's
23:20
impossible. It's like you've learned the
23:22
hard way, but it's impossible to do this.
23:24
And this goes for like especially the back end of the
23:27
organization and for leadership and for rosters.
23:29
This is where it comes back to is like you're trying to do
23:33
something which nobody can do. So give yourself a break
23:37
effectively is what I'm trying to try to say here, is that what
23:41
you're trying to do is something that no one in Australia does
23:43
well. And and don't be afraid to to
23:47
ask for help. You know, when I saw you talk, I
23:50
must admit I felt like the penny dropped for me because I was
23:53
like, oh, when was the last time we checked that?
23:56
When, when, when was the like? And when you were talking about
23:59
doing a health check, when did we last check that and put it
24:02
against each other to see whether we're actually matching
24:05
and we're doing what we simply did that for me was that like
24:09
the ha ha moment for me where I'd had I went back to
24:13
everything. I pulled it apart to make sure
24:15
that am I just in case, Sarah, because you know, like one
24:18
report says one thing and the other and tried to build it in
24:21
together and to figure out whether I was stuffing it up and
24:24
I was stuffing it up. Every everyone does like in
24:27
terms of this is my, this is my whole point.
24:29
This is in terms of everybody is.
24:31
So it's like Fang like in terms of.
24:35
But I would not be the only one out there, like you said, that
24:38
would admit that they they've stuffed it up.
24:42
Is it so with some of the people that you work with, you've
24:47
worked with them for a period of time for people to use your
24:50
organization? Is it something that they do
24:52
ongoing or is it just or does it have a life cycle?
24:55
No, 100% it's ongoing. So, so we basically become part
25:00
of the team and that's really important to us because again,
25:04
like how, how experience, like our hypothesis when we start out
25:08
of the business and now our proven experience is that we
25:12
believe it's impossible for the majority of providers still
25:16
providers specifically to roster and claim correctly on an
25:20
ongoing basis. And it really just comes down to
25:24
the process is so damn hard. Like the process of creating a
25:28
roster is so hard to do at volume and scale and because of
25:34
the restrictions of the cost model is it's just impossible to
25:38
actually execute at that level for so long, if that makes
25:41
sense. And, and it's proven out like
25:44
Adam's experiences out in the world working with a large
25:47
number of providers is this isn't a matter of well, he's a
25:52
bit of training and consulting and, and whatever.
25:54
It's just you cannot do that because of the inherent issues
25:58
within lot rostering and claiming.
26:00
And so the only reason we're able to do it is because like
26:03
we're talking about earlier is we've got that isolated
26:07
position, if that makes sense. We're not part of the
26:09
organization. We can focus only on rostering
26:12
and claiming without any distractions.
26:14
And then we can come in and support the organization in
26:17
terms of this is out working with the team leaders and
26:19
forming that bridge between the operational side and the
26:22
corporate side is it's, it's, it's filling in those missing
26:26
pieces that I was talking about. And in terms of again, that's
26:29
been our experience, but we cannot look at 200 providers and
26:32
in almost every single instance it not be working.
26:35
And even when we make organizations aware of the issue
26:39
and they spend significant resources to try solve it, so
26:42
everyone gets on board to try solve it.
26:45
There's a reason they're calling us two weeks, two months, six
26:49
months later is because like even when you put all your time
26:52
and attention into it, it's still, you still can't get it
26:55
right. And that's not sustainable.
26:57
You can't push your whole organization.
26:59
There's other things that are actually more important.
27:01
And, and again, that's just been our lived experience within the
27:04
industry is it's just impossible to get it right by yourself.
27:09
And you need somebody to support you on that, on that journey.
27:12
So you're a part of all these teams.
27:14
Does that mean you get invited to a lot of different Christmas
27:17
parties? That, that's actually a really
27:19
good point. I think we need to, we need to
27:20
be invited to more Christmas parties.
27:22
That's a very, very valid point. Sue never sleeps.
27:25
So we don't have one. Yeah, Yeah, in most cases
27:30
because of us, there's, there's more money in the organization.
27:33
But yeah, we should be getting provided a more Christmas
27:36
parties. That's a very good point.
27:37
So can you tell us a time when you have better systems, clear
27:41
rosters, leadership, and it actually made a really huge
27:44
difference to a provider and the people around them?
27:47
Like, can you think of one story in particular?
27:49
A. 100% So like I was saying before is a lot of the work that
27:53
we do translates into money. OK, which isn't exciting or sexy
28:00
art that money. Then what does that become?
28:03
And it becomes like I was talking about before, it's a
28:05
better like more training opportunities for support
28:10
workers. What does that mean?
28:12
That means a better experience for the people in the houses.
28:14
It translates into solving maintenance issues in the
28:17
houses. So what does that mean?
28:18
Well, it means that the people in the houses have a much better
28:21
environment to to live within. That's the stories that we hear
28:25
from our clients all the time in terms of as we're able to make
28:29
these improvements and this money is not being lost as in
28:32
we're actually claiming for the support that we're delivering is
28:35
going to translate into what providers actually care about,
28:38
which is what, which is providing better outcomes for
28:40
the people in the houses. And so that's really what it's
28:43
all about. What we're trying to do is we're
28:45
trying to make life easier for for the staff and then trying to
28:50
stop them leaking money and actually let's put it to to good
28:53
use as opposed to just falling out the organization.
28:57
So now that you've been here for a while and and you've worked
29:00
with amongst so many different providers out there, if you had
29:03
a crystal ball, where do you see the disability space heading in
29:07
the next couple of years? I wish I could say there was a
29:09
lot at the end of the tunnel, but there just is not like in
29:12
terms of the reality is the NDIA is already costing a significant
29:19
amount of money. So more money is not going to
29:21
get poured into the industry and, and at the same time we're
29:25
seeing from the NDIA more and more, more regulatory pressure
29:30
on providers. It's getting harder and harder
29:32
in terms of, you know, we've got these three month funding
29:34
periods and one month funding periods.
29:37
So we've got a, and again, all I'm talking about here is
29:39
specific to the civil industry. So we've got no one making any
29:43
money. We've got from our perspective,
29:48
a business model that no one can actually operate successfully
29:52
within, OK, not the core, the core business engine which is
29:54
rostering, claiming cannot be done.
29:56
More money is not coming in and regulatory pressure is
30:01
increasing. So like none of these things
30:04
sound like sound like things are going to get better for
30:06
providers. So when I think about it, I have
30:10
a lot of concerns for the industry because unless you can
30:15
get this rostering and claiming part right, because that's where
30:18
you're losing a lot of money. Like it then becomes the inverse
30:22
of what I'm talking about. So if providers are going to
30:24
keep losing money, well, then what does that mean?
30:27
That means providers taking shortcuts.
30:29
That means less training for for support workers.
30:32
It means like maintenance issues go on for for longer.
30:36
So in terms of I've got grave concerns for the industry as a
30:41
whole and then ultimately everything we talk about is
30:44
about human beings and this is all going to impact the
30:48
individuals being provided support.
30:50
So I know this isn't exactly like a uplifting part of this
30:53
conversation, but like I don't, I don't see a pathway here.
30:57
And in terms of I think I would strongly encourage providers
31:02
that are listening to look for guidance to solve these
31:07
problems, OK. And like Resolve is obviously a
31:09
part of that. I'm obviously like talking,
31:11
talking up resolve here, but it's like we're just there to
31:15
help providers. We provide a lot of guidance and
31:16
assistance for free, like in terms of we help people that
31:19
aren't civil providers, like in terms of what we, because we
31:23
know first hand how hard it is. We're always there for people to
31:27
reach out and ask us questions as well as even guardians and
31:30
participants. But what what's actually
31:31
happening within SEAL? Because no one really
31:33
understands SEAL very well. Yeah, we're always there to to
31:37
help people. But yeah, to answer your
31:38
question, is this going to keep getting harder?
31:40
A hard a hard thing's going to keep getting harder, and there
31:43
is no solution inside. Does it discriminate between
31:46
being a small seal provider to being a very big one?
31:50
Because today I did a networking meeting where I met people that
31:55
had one seal house and then I did a network meeting where I
31:58
had people that had 20 something seal houses.
32:01
Is there a difference? It is extremely, extremely hard
32:06
to be a seal provider with one house.
32:10
It is even harder to be a seal provider with two houses.
32:13
And then it just keeps getting harder.
32:14
Like the the problem with seal and because of the fundamental
32:19
problems we're talking about is it doesn't get easier as you get
32:25
larger. And it should, like in any other
32:27
business, it should you eventually hit economies of
32:29
scale, things should get easier. But because a lot of this comes
32:34
down to very, very specialized knowledge and being able to like
32:40
as in creating rosters and claiming like this fundamental
32:42
methodology and being able to do that at scale, which is
32:46
extremely hard to execute on. And again, I'm really talking
32:48
about rostering, claiming it's always going to be hard.
32:51
And the bigger you get, the harder it is because just
32:55
because you've got like more money to spend, this isn't a
32:58
problem that gets solved by throwing money at it.
33:01
So yeah, definitely doesn't discriminate.
33:03
It's the bigger you are, it's it's it's harder.
33:06
And you see that in the benchmarking studies by groups
33:09
like Ability Roundtable is the bigger you are effectively the
33:14
more money you lose like on a percentage basis.
33:16
Yeah. So, So in other words, if you're
33:20
a small provider listening to this right now, it's OK.
33:25
It's hard. And give the suffering too.
33:27
Give yourself give and get that. And, and like I even said this,
33:30
like give yourself, give yourself a break.
33:32
I think everyone puts themselves under a lot of pressure, but
33:35
you're trying to, you're working within a flawed system that
33:39
cannot be done well. It's impossible to be done well.
33:42
So, so give yourself, give yourself a break.
33:45
And when you're looking at the other providers, understand
33:48
they're doing it just as hard. We never talked to any providers
33:50
that are like, man, this seal thing's easy.
33:52
Like in terms of it's hard for everybody.
33:55
So give yourself a break and and focus on what you can.
33:58
So for people to receive services off you, is it done
34:01
online? Are you there in person?
34:04
Are you turning up to my sealed house?
34:05
Like how does it work? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:08
So I guess just in general, people who just reach out to us,
34:11
hit me up on LinkedIn, reach us through our website.
34:13
Just if you have questions that we're more than happy to provide
34:16
guidance. The primary way we help
34:18
providers initially is via a health check, OK.
34:21
And that's something that we provide completely free of
34:23
charge. It's something that doesn't take
34:25
a lot of time and what it does is we will look at a provider's
34:29
funding, rostering and claiming and help them understand how big
34:34
of an issue this is within the organization.
34:36
Because like I said, on average it's about 10 to 20,000 plus per
34:42
participant. That's just being leaked out of
34:44
that organization. And it doesn't matter whether
34:46
you've got one participant or 1000 participants, that's going
34:49
to be a lot of money relatively speaking.
34:51
And again, when we're talking money leaking out, that's money
34:53
that should be going back into training, support workers,
34:56
fixing issues and houses, etcetera.
34:58
So yeah, always reach out to us. We're available on LinkedIn
35:01
through our website, but one of the one of the primary ways if
35:05
you're a seal provider is via that health check, completely
35:09
free of charge, no obligation, and it will give you a level of
35:12
comfort to get an independent analysis around what's
35:15
happening. So between you and the other Co
35:19
founders, do you all have different roles or do you have
35:22
the same role? No, no, no.
35:24
So we've got, yeah, yeah, that's great, Great.
35:26
No. So we've got, we've got quite a
35:27
large team like around that works around Australia.
35:30
When it starts becoming rostering around houses, God
35:33
forbid I do it, you don't want to hear from hear from me.
35:35
Like in terms of, like I said, I'm an, I'm an outsider into the
35:38
industry. Like I'm good at finances,
35:41
operations tech is I would, it's very important to us as an
35:45
organization that when you're talking to somebody around a
35:49
roster for a house, you're talking to another support
35:52
worker. OK.
35:53
So in almost every instance that I can think of when you're
35:55
talking with a resolved staff member, especially when it comes
35:58
to the rostering of houses, you're actually talking to
36:00
somebody that's actually lived, you know, that's actually done
36:03
like a transition from house to hospital, you know, like that's
36:06
gone through the different they, they understand the realities of
36:09
what it is to be a support worker and that's really
36:11
fundamental. It'd be disrespectful for me to
36:13
like, I've got so much respect for a support worker and the
36:16
type of stuff they do. I can't.
36:19
Why shouldn't you listen to me when I'm telling you, oh, no,
36:21
we're going to change a shift. That's that's ridiculous in
36:24
terms of we make sure that you're always talking with
36:26
somebody from our team that's actually had lived experience
36:29
and is coming at this from a compassionate perspective that's
36:33
respective of the support worker perspective of the person that
36:36
we're providing support to, but also to the provider and the
36:39
overall funding picture what we're looking at.
36:42
So how do you find your team members?
36:44
Yeah, we've got difficulty, like I said, is that there's very,
36:49
very few people throughout Australia.
36:53
I honestly feel like the numbers less than 25 that in Australia
36:59
really deeply understand how to roster correctly for a seal
37:02
house. So where we're always, we're
37:04
always on the lookout. But it is, it is a very, very
37:08
specialized skill set and it's something very, very difficult
37:10
to get. But it's difficult also because
37:13
the the variety of CRMS that are out there and each CRM presents
37:19
differently. Yes, yes.
37:20
So we're going to spend a lot of time understanding the different
37:23
because when we come into an organization, we work with their
37:26
staff and their systems. So we're not replacing any
37:28
systems. We're not taking these out or
37:29
whatever. But yeah, you're right, life
37:31
isn't easy because there is so many different CRMS.
37:33
And so we've spent a lot of time understanding how the different
37:37
systems work because that's an essential part for us to provide
37:42
guidance to the to everyone on the team.
37:45
Yeah. I'm I always felt, especially in
37:48
positions where I have managed that if I had my CRM up to date
37:54
and I had as much information as possible in that CRM, a lot of
37:58
things would align agree or. Disagree.
38:01
I'm sorry, 100% agree. I'm, I'm trying to update my
38:07
CRM. I've got like 30 other competing
38:10
priorities. And so there's a so yeah, you're
38:12
100% right. It's like like for the majority
38:15
of that CRMS out there, if you're putting good, I hate
38:18
using the garbage in garbage, but it's like if you, if you're
38:20
keeping it up to date and then there's garbage, you know, it's
38:22
keeping it up to date. Yeah, if you keep your system up
38:25
today, in the majority of cases you've got to be sitting in a
38:28
decent position. The reality is the amount of
38:32
effort it requires and the amount of focus it requires to
38:36
truly keep a CRM up to date is it's impossible because there's
38:40
not enough. There's too many things to do,
38:43
too many priorities. You know, you've worked in these
38:46
roles in terms of it's impossible.
38:49
It's just, it's just, that's the reality.
38:50
Smaller one and the smaller a provider is, the harder it is,
38:54
and that's because these big providers have somebody that
38:57
overseas it. Yes.
38:58
But even then they're struggling because again, it's not like I
39:00
think this is a really important because we see the whole gamut.
39:04
So in terms of like, yes, when you're smaller, everyone's
39:06
having to wear multiple hats, whether you're a small provider,
39:08
whether you're a large provider is like the amount of effort for
39:12
each individual worker is more than the time available.
39:15
That's, that's the reality. That's why we're seeing a lot of
39:18
these linkages. So to get in touch with you
39:21
guys, should they do the health check first or can they just
39:25
drop a line on LinkedIn or go straight to an e-mail?
39:29
Literally, yeah, literally. Go to our website, reach out to
39:33
me on LinkedIn and start a conversation.
39:36
It's the health check doesn't take very long.
39:38
And yeah, like you say, that's very important to us to be a
39:43
free service that we're that we're offering because like a
39:46
big part of what we're trying to do is help educate providers
39:50
that this is the problem that you need to solve.
39:54
You need to get your rosters and claims right.
39:56
And you most likely are not because it's it's easy to chase
40:00
the more interesting things we need to get a new system.
40:02
A new system will solve all our problems or this new hire is
40:05
going to solve all our problems or we're going to do this,
40:07
etcetera. It's like.
40:09
Until your rostering and claiming process has been
40:13
addressed and you are 100% confident that it's going to be
40:18
compliant and sustainable on an ongoing basis, doing anything
40:22
else is putting your business at a disadvantage.
40:26
And so that's a big reason why we do it for free.
40:28
It's why whenever we talk, but I encourage people to reach out to
40:30
us is we're just trying to help providers understand this is
40:35
your problem and we can put a dollar value to it.
40:37
And then when you actually understand that dollar value
40:40
within your organization, well, you can work out how, how
40:43
important it is. But given the fact that again,
40:45
on average, we're finding 10 to 20,000 per participant, that's
40:49
just fitting the sitting at the back of the couch in terms of
40:52
like this should be your number one priority.
40:54
And this is how this is going to be the mechanism where how
40:57
you're going to be able to affect so much positive change
41:00
within your organization. So you know I'm nosy, right?
41:05
Yeah, OK. I love asking this question.
41:09
So if you guys have got anything happening in the next year or
41:14
have you got anything that you guys are working towards for
41:16
result? Yeah.
41:18
So I think for us, especially for this year, we're always
41:23
trying to refine and improve how we serve providers and a lot of
41:29
the effort this year is going to be spent on moving even faster
41:35
to serve our our clients. So again, it's not, it's not
41:38
really interesting stuff that, you know, I'm sure people don't
41:40
come this is the like process improvements.
41:42
But like really that's, that's the main focus for us is, is, is
41:46
speed in terms of the speed at which we serve our clients and
41:50
the speed at which we're providing information.
41:52
So a lot of providers are really flying blind in terms of what's
41:58
actually happening within the business and within the houses
42:00
from a financial perspective. And very early, like in the in
42:04
the next month or two, especially to a lot of our
42:06
customers is we're going to be rolling out a lot more
42:10
information about what's going on within their organization and
42:13
being able to do it in a way that's extremely fast.
42:16
So for this year, this year for us is all about speed, which
42:20
again isn't like a super interesting topic to a lot of
42:22
people, but to our clients is. And it's something that we're
42:25
really, we're really excited about because.
42:28
So is that mean that every What is it?
42:30
June. July.
42:31
When the price guide drops, you are doing your homework.
42:34
Yeah, that part's easy. That part's easy for us.
42:37
So we solve those problems in terms of indexation and those
42:40
sort of things. I think for us, I think we're
42:43
always looking to try improve ourselves internally.
42:45
And that's really our main focus this year is really making sure
42:50
that we can serve our clients as as quickly as possible and
42:54
giving them the information they need in order to make really
42:58
good decisions within within their business.
43:00
Because what we're seeing is just very significant growth of
43:05
providers, understanding that they've got fundamental problems
43:09
and making the difficult step to ask for help and do and to get
43:14
somebody to help them. Because nobody wants to bring a
43:16
bunch of third party bozos into their organization.
43:19
You know what I mean? In terms of we should be able to
43:21
do this ourselves, shouldn't we? And the reality is you can't,
43:24
OK. But that that is a fundamental
43:26
reality from what we've seen. That's been our lived
43:29
experience. Yeah, I guess that's one of the
43:31
main drivers behind really trying to get fast because
43:34
because of those issues I was talking about before where
43:36
things aren't going to get better.
43:39
What we're doing is seeing more and more organizations taking
43:43
that brave step about having a conversation and then inviting
43:46
us in to work alongside their staff.
43:49
And that's a right that we got to earn and and the fast that we
43:54
can move. The So if you are a new provider
43:58
watching this and you you haven't set up your first house,
44:01
would it be worth having you on the journey from day dot as a
44:04
enter new NDIS participants into service?
44:07
Yeah, like. Could you could you do that like
44:11
I was just curious. We literally, we literally no,
44:14
we literally do do that. So in terms of but, but again,
44:18
is like sometimes it's not very obvious about that the problem
44:23
that we solve is an actual problem that exists.
44:25
Does that make sense? So in terms of like it takes a
44:28
lot for somebody just stepping into SEAL going, I'm not going
44:31
to know how to roster and claim I need to get assistance and
44:34
build that into my function. But yes, those organizations
44:36
that have done it early will be successful because it's not
44:39
going to be one or two years in where it's like, hold on,
44:42
where's all the money going in my business?
44:44
I need to get somebody to to do. That yeah, 100% decision very
44:48
quickly. Like how to save it too?
44:50
Yes, exactly, exactly. Like baking us in at the start
44:53
makes a whole lot of sense. But again, sometimes you've got
44:56
to go on the journey a little bit to really appreciate how
44:58
hard it is to get it right. Yeah.
45:04
How many things in life you're going to, you're going to learn
45:06
the hard way, I think sometimes to respect.
45:08
But did I have to use that many frauds?
45:12
Some something sometimes you do. And is there anything that I
45:16
have missed that you'd love to tell people about?
45:20
No, I just think, I think one for anyone that's working within
45:24
a disability organization at any level think, understand that
45:28
you've you've got a bloody hard job and that what you do is
45:33
extremely hard but extremely meaningful.
45:36
I think that's something that's really fundamental.
45:38
I think a lot of people put them under pressure is like what you
45:40
do and we forget you've made a decision to work in this
45:42
industry. You could have worked in the
45:43
banking industry, you could have like done this, you could have
45:45
done that. Now you've chosen this as your
45:47
vocation and you're actually helping other human beings.
45:51
I think that's really important. And then at a business level for
45:57
those within or running seal providers is understand that
46:01
your rosters likely are wrong, your claiming is wrong, and as a
46:05
result, you're actually disadvantaging your staff and
46:09
the people you're providing support to.
46:11
There's money within your business that can be unlocked
46:14
that we can actually use for written positive outcomes to
46:18
drive better, better support for the for the people that serve
46:21
it. Thank you so much for joining me
46:24
today. No thanks for putting up with
46:26
me.