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Professional Christian: Sarah Bereza on how to be fully yourself in public ministry · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dr. Sara
0:49
Bariza to the program.
0:51
Sarah holds a Ph.D. and a
0:54
certificate in feminist theory from Duke
0:57
University and has focused her research on
1:00
music and theology in American
1:02
Christianity. She is the author
1:05
of Professional Christian Being Fully Yourself in
1:08
the Spotlight of Public Ministry. Sarah
1:11
is a lifelong church musician and currently
1:14
serves as the director of Music at Grace
1:17
United Methodist Church in St. Louis,
1:19
Missouri. She shares resources,
1:22
including a newsletter at UH Sarah with
1:25
an H B E R
1:28
E Z A dot com.
1:31
A reminder, before we start today's
1:33
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
1:36
the podcast, leave a review, and share Future
1:39
Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
1:42
Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram.
1:45
Shoot us an email at uh, laurensonatemediapro
1:47
uh.com
1:49
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
1:52
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
1:55
we faithfully discern the future of the
1:58
church. And now to today's
2:00
conversation.
2:10
>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am
2:13
Loren Richmond Jr. And today I am pleased to be
2:16
welcoming Dr. Sara Bereza Thank
2:19
you so much for being here. Yeah, great, great,
2:22
great. Well, let's begin with
2:24
this. Anything, uh, else you want our listeners to know about
2:27
you?
2:28
>> Sarah: Oh, I write a whole bunch. I have three
2:31
small children that occupy my time and
2:34
music for life. So much music in my life.
2:37
>> Loren: Okay. Okay, cool. You know, I don't
2:40
know. We'll get into this here in a second.
2:43
You growing up indefinite Baptist like me.
2:46
Spoiler alert for listeners.
2:47
>> Sarah: Good times.
2:48
>> Loren: I've been really getting into, like, CCM of late.
2:52
Were you allowed to listen to CCM as a kid?
2:54
>> Sarah: Oh, absolutely not. Um, um, in fact, my. My
2:56
doctoral dissertation, um, dealt with theologies of
2:59
music in a way. It was me processing my
3:02
childhood, um, as a musical person. All the. The
3:05
theological reasons, the religious beliefs around, why that
3:08
wasn't allowed, why it wasn't just that, um, secular music
3:11
for the most part, wasn't allowed, but that Christian, uh, contemporary music
3:13
wasn't allowed. Um, and so if. If you're really,
3:16
uh, Want some good nighttime reading
3:19
that'll put you to sleep. There's like 400 something pages of that
3:22
up on ProQuest. Go read my dissertation. A lot
3:25
of detail.
3:26
>> Loren: I'll have to have you send me that because that sounds right up my alley.
3:28
>> Sarah: I mean there's a lot of good stuff there, but it's also like, you know,
3:31
academic.
3:32
>> Loren: Yeah, I mean, uh, I grew up Independent
3:35
Baptist and I was the shade of
3:37
independence where it was sort of
3:40
like ambiguous about whether it was
3:43
okay or not. CCM type music. So
3:46
anyway, let's get into that. Uh, share if
3:49
you would, about your faith journey. Uh,
3:51
as growing up an infinite Baptist, I.
3:54
>> Sarah: So I, yes, I grew up independent Fundamental Bible believing
3:57
Baptist. Um, and for my particular family and
4:00
if anyone has like interacted with independent fundamentalists,
4:03
like that's uh, you know, each church is its own little
4:05
island in a way. Um, so there's a lot of, you
4:08
know, how many flavors could you have? That's how many corrections there are. And
4:11
so my particular variety was, um, if we think in
4:14
terms of denominational surrogates, it was more aligned
4:17
with um, Northland Baptist Bible College.
4:20
>> Loren: Okay.
4:21
>> Sarah: Somewhat aligned with Bob Jones. I didn't, for the most of my childhood,
4:24
I didn't have a Bob Jones style, um,
4:26
education, but that's actually where I went for my undergraduate degree.
4:29
Um, but it was in that particular vein and it
4:32
wasn't in the King James only vein. Um,
4:35
my family was very emphatically not King James
4:37
only, um, and was pretty, uh,
4:40
emphatically racially inclusive. So that limits.
4:43
So we were not in the King James only churches. We weren't in churches that
4:46
wouldn't allow black people to worship.
4:48
Um, so that was like my
4:51
particular, my particular variety of fundamentalism
4:54
growing up. And I, as a musical kid,
4:57
um, for a long time
4:59
thought, well, this is not where I'm going to land.
5:02
And. But also I grew up in a bubble. I
5:05
was homeschooled. I went to a very small church. My world was extremely
5:08
small. Um, and so I didn't really know what was out there.
5:11
And I also, um, felt a lot of love
5:14
for God and a lot of love for my people. And in the world that I
5:16
grew up in, it was, well, you're either fundamentalist
5:19
Baptist or you're a godless
5:21
atheist Presbyterian. You know,
5:24
like these, these are the two options. And so growing up I was like, well,
5:27
clearly there have to be more options. But I didn't have an opportunity,
5:30
opportunity to see more options for the most
5:32
part. Um, so When I
5:35
was in college, I did a little bit of
5:38
exploring. I went to Bob Jones University, which was
5:41
not so much now, but at the time, you know, pretty clearly
5:43
fundamentalist and um, it's own kind of
5:46
bubble, but, but more, more uh,
5:49
permissive in a way. I was allowed to wear pants at Bob Jones,
5:52
unlike in my childhood.
5:53
>> Loren: Wow.
5:54
>> Sarah: Um, and so like it was in many ways had more
5:57
freedom than my childhood home. And so I
5:59
began exploring Eastern Orthodoxy. And then as a graduate
6:02
student I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, which I still feel
6:05
a lot of, um, kinship for. Um, but
6:08
over the years, this is now like I m graduated
6:11
from college about 15 years ago. Um,
6:14
over the years I have worked extensively in the
6:17
mainline as a church musician and I have
6:20
been working, working in mainline churches and
6:23
evangelical churches um, since I was 11.
6:25
So this has been the bulk of my
6:28
life, um, working in churches as a
6:30
musician. And um,
6:33
I now would first define myself as a progressive
6:36
Christian and not by a particular
6:39
denominational label. And that has largely
6:42
had to do with um, having children. I had my first child eight years
6:45
ago and eventually realized that
6:47
while I could be at home in a denomination that
6:50
was more conservative than I personally was,
6:53
I couldn't raise my children in a denomination
6:56
that didn't ordain women, that didn't actively and
6:59
affirmatively welcome trans and gay people and queer
7:01
people. If I could be there, you know,
7:04
advocating for change on the inside, I couldn't raise my own children there.
7:07
And so my whole family has experienced a shift in the last
7:10
decade. Um, where the
7:12
churches where we personally choose to worship, not
7:15
just work, but to worship, um,
7:18
are m more progressively identified than,
7:21
um, than by other factors. That would be the first factor for us.
7:24
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
7:25
>> Sarah: That's where I've ended up, at least at this point in life.
7:28
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I've got to say I'm kind of scandalized
7:31
as a former Independent Baptist, that Bob
7:33
Jones is, was not
7:36
considered that
7:39
conservative. Did I hear you right?
7:41
>> Sarah: It was considered conservative enough
7:44
for my family. That's why I ended up there. But it was
7:47
more, um,
7:50
there was more openness to certain things than in my
7:52
own particular family. Okay,
7:55
so for instance, like going back to the pants. Like, well, I had to wear
7:58
pantyhose when I was at Bob Jones, which is hilarious to
8:01
me to think about. Um, but I was also allowed to wear
8:04
pants, um, you know, to go to the store or something. Like I owned
8:07
pairs of pants. Whereas in my childhood
8:09
home that was not, um, allowed.
8:12
>> Loren: Okay, okay, fair enough. Yeah, see I guess my
8:15
childhood in my, like when, when
8:18
I was young and I, I think I'm a little older than you. Like
8:21
my dad tried to do like the no pants thing for my sisters,
8:24
but my mom was just like, no, there's too much work.
8:26
>> Sarah: Good for your mom. Good for your mom.
8:29
>> Loren: And then, uh, I'm a, I'm a graduate
8:32
of. Thank goodness they have now since
8:35
renamed for my resume sake. But it was
8:37
Baptist Bible College, Springfield, Missouri.
8:40
And then. But certainly like around.
8:44
Growing up mostly here, around Denver, like Bob Jones,
8:47
Pensacola. Those were the colleges
8:50
a lot of my contemporaries would go to
8:53
from church. So what
8:56
would he think is, see, uh. And
8:59
I laugh because again, a few years
9:02
ago my alma mater made the switch
9:05
to a more relaxed dress code and I
9:08
am still scandalized seeing students
9:10
pictures of wearing jeans and shorts
9:13
and whatnot because we had to wear,
9:16
or at least as a, as a, as a man,
9:19
we had to wear shirt and tie to class. Oh
9:22
yeah, women had to wear college experience. I think they had to also
9:25
wear, you know, a skirt and pantyhose or some kind
9:28
of leg covering, I guess.
9:30
>> Sarah: Mhm, mhm. Very interesting stuff. Designed
9:33
to be like a, um, business code.
9:35
>> Loren: Right.
9:35
>> Sarah: Which is hilarious to me, um,
9:38
these days. But you know,
9:41
it's funny though because like, those are the, to me those are the easy things
9:44
to talk about because they are on
9:47
the, they're on the surface and they're kind of funny.
9:50
Can you believe I had to wear pantyhose? Can you believe they tried to blah,
9:53
blah, you know, whatever the things are. Can you believe?
9:55
Um, and there's so much
9:58
more under the surface than that. Um, and especially
10:01
for me as a young person, I was,
10:04
um, 17 when I started college and
10:06
I wanted so much to love God and I wanted
10:09
so much to love God's people
10:11
and like thought of myself as, you know, a
10:14
good person, someone who really, you know, truly cared about other
10:17
people. And the system that I was in took
10:20
so much advantage of that because I was kind and I was trusting and in many
10:23
ways very, very naive. Um, but that
10:26
system said, well, but here's what it is to be good. Here's. Here
10:29
is what godliness looks like. And so for me
10:32
as you know, a really young teenager,
10:35
um, that is something that
10:38
I had to struggle with for years. Like really, this is, this is what
10:40
godliness is. This is what it means to be a
10:43
Christian in, in that kind of performative way.
10:46
In this, um, in this way and especially for as, as a woman,
10:49
um, the way those dress codes were um, very much,
10:52
um, emblematic of purity culture and restrictions
10:55
around women's bodies. M. There's so
10:58
much under the surface. But of course, like, when I'm just like, you know, chit chatting
11:01
with people who've never heard about, you know, where I grew up, I'm like, oh, yeah, it was
11:04
just, you know, it was. It was weird, it was
11:07
wild, it was crazy pants, it was bananas. And I just kind of like,
11:09
laughing, move on. Because, like, who needs to unpack all of
11:12
that, um, you know, in the
11:15
potluck or whatever? Like, I'm like, I don't. I don't need to have these conversations.
11:18
>> Loren: Right, right.
11:19
>> Sarah: But it's. There's so much. There's so much more underneath that,
11:22
like, can you believe we had to work a pantyhose? Can you believe they made us
11:25
wear ties? You know, we weren't allowed to have, you know, whatever with
11:28
our hair? Like, yeah, it's wild.
11:31
>> Loren: Yeah. We don't have to go. We could probably spend the whole episode just
11:34
talking about recovering from fundamentalist culture.
11:38
I'm just thinking, like, one of the things that drove me
11:41
crazy as a
11:44
young man in Bible college was
11:46
how, I mean, it
11:49
was something that frustrated me, but also seemed incredulous to
11:52
me was how much. How
11:55
much expectations were put upon women. And also,
11:58
conversely, like young men, it was just like, it was just
12:01
constantly boys will be boys thing.
12:04
So I can only imagine, you know, what
12:07
it might have been like to have to live in that culture with
12:10
that kind of burden, seeing it just from the
12:13
other side of, like, man, there's a bunch of
12:15
idiot boys here. Why are we just constantly getting away
12:18
with being stupid?
12:21
>> Sarah: Yep, that was my, uh. I have several brothers,
12:24
and one of them, uh, is two years younger than me. Two
12:27
years younger in school. And so we overlapped in college.
12:30
Um, and it was just mind blowing to
12:32
me how different his college
12:35
experience was than mine. Um, and we also,
12:38
you know, different personalities and all that kind of stuff.
12:41
Um, but just such a
12:44
different understanding of, like,
12:48
I mean, the pressures that we
12:50
felt, um, and the potential for, like, um,
12:53
getting in trouble. Like, I mean, I was the most, like,
12:56
pristine, good little girl. And I
12:59
always felt like, oh, God, something bad is going to happen. Um,
13:02
even. Even as I was, um. And I, you know, I
13:05
had multiple roommates kicked out while I was there. Um, and.
13:08
But I always felt like, you know, something is going to happen. Even though
13:11
I was, you know, the model
13:14
student.
13:14
>> Loren: Yeah.
13:15
>> Sarah: In. In all the ways. Um, it just was always.
13:18
It was always present there that, like, you could
13:21
have your life blow up if you. If you just stepped in the
13:24
wrong way.
13:25
>> Loren: Yeah, boy, let's not.
13:29
Yeah. I'm feeling some things here.
13:31
>> Sarah: Yeah.
13:32
>> Loren: Uh, I want to. Before we get. We
13:35
do need to talk about your book here, but.
13:37
>> Sarah: Yeah, I mean, that. That too.
13:38
>> Loren: Like, I feel like I'm just processing here.
13:41
I. In your book, you write about
13:44
and m. For folks and for folks who may not be
13:47
familiar with, like. And I think this
13:49
happens. I think this is a practice in evangelical culture,
13:52
but certainly in, like, the
13:55
fundamentalist Baptist culture. This thing of
13:57
every head bowed, every eye closed, and
14:00
I can't. Preachers, they could
14:03
just roll it off the tongue. I struggle to even say it
14:06
right there, but every head bowed, every head closed, and it was just like
14:09
no one looking around. You knew what to do.
14:12
And I think it was like, only the worst people were actually
14:15
looking around. But you write in this book, this really thing
14:18
that just shocked and scandalized
14:21
me, but should not surprise me. He said that
14:24
as, uh, someone who's playing the piano, pastors would
14:27
sometimes say, I see those hands, and there'd be no hands. And
14:30
I'm just shocked by that.
14:31
>> Sarah: I know. And I have a good friend who grew up in a
14:34
similar world. His was a little bit more Pensacola leaning, um,
14:37
but similar world. And I asked him the same thing. And we feel like we
14:40
couldn't remember the name because we were both like, literally children, uh,
14:43
doing these services. We, um, both started as middle school, Middle
14:46
school students, um, but we were like, oh,
14:49
yeah, that. That one evangelist, we couldn't remember his name, but we're
14:52
like, he would do this all the time. And, like,
14:55
I just so. So, like, going back into, like,
14:58
thinking about, like, oh, you know, those silly, silly rules, you know,
15:01
controlling people's, you know, what are they going to wear? How is their
15:04
hair going to be. Um. But I feel like that is a similar type of
15:07
move where you tell everyone, here's how their
15:10
hairstyle. You have to behave. And, like, there's nothing the matter with, like,
15:12
closing your eyes and bowing your
15:15
head and praying. Like, there's nothing the matter with that. But the
15:18
performance of, uh, being in sync with everyone else. We are
15:21
all going to do this now. That is such a safe thing
15:24
to do. It is such a, um, being in community with
15:27
people to do that kind of thing. I'm a choir director is, uh, one of
15:30
my main things that I do. And I work so
15:33
hard to make a safe space for my choir so that they
15:36
can feel safe to then breathe
15:38
together to do These actions together because
15:41
that grows out of community. And
15:45
the work of that type of altar call is
15:47
in many ways like taking advantage of that human
15:50
desire for connection to all be
15:53
together to do the thing and not. You don't want to be that one person
15:56
who's like sticking out for most people. I mean some people do, but most
15:59
people, they want to follow the social norms, they want to be part
16:02
of this. But then they
16:05
are potentially in a very manipulative kind of
16:07
place. They're in a place where to be acting out, to do
16:10
something different is perceived as really rude.
16:14
Um, even though they're being manipulated in that, in
16:16
that particular spiritual space. Um, it's,
16:19
it's um, it's, it's such a
16:22
shameful thing in my, in my opinion to take take advantage of people that
16:25
way. Um, but it's, it's really, it can be really
16:28
common and it gets. Actually the things I wrote about in my book about
16:31
um, the power that we have as um,
16:33
professional Christians and um, to the power to influence and the power
16:36
for people to listen to us when we
16:39
talk because we have the microphone and I'm not a
16:42
clergy person but in many cases we have like the
16:45
marker of you should listen to this person.
16:48
M. And that is a huge power that we have.
16:51
And we can't just be using that
16:54
willy nilly, um, or to our own benefit or um,
16:57
to spiritually manipulate people. Um, just because we can.
17:00
Just because that is um, a
17:02
possibility that we have with our power.
17:05
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. It's a great transition. To talk about the book.
17:08
I do want to mention, I'm not sure if you've seen
17:11
this. There's an author, J. Michael Jordan. I have an
17:13
interview with him, probably will release a couple
17:16
before yours here. He talks a lot about in
17:19
evangelical spaces, the problems with using
17:22
anxiety basically to stimulate
17:25
what he calls.
17:27
>> Sarah: Look into that.
17:28
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
17:28
>> Sarah: Oh, uh, that's interesting.
17:29
>> Loren: Recommended. But anyway.
17:31
>> Sarah: Michael Jordan.
17:32
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, let's
17:34
dive into the topic of your book
17:37
and Sarah is the author of Professional
17:40
Being Fully Yourself in the Spotlight of Public
17:43
Ministry. But I want to start with this
17:46
question because you ask it yourself in
17:49
the book and I think it's perfect. What is
17:51
it about being a professional Christian
17:54
that makes it so hard to be ourselves?
17:57
>> Sarah: Mhm. Mhm. That is a great
18:00
question. I want to back up a little bit and just talk about how I understand
18:03
the word professional Christian because some people say like, oh well you know,
18:06
we're not professionals. We're called to this.
18:07
>> Loren: Right.
18:08
>> Sarah: I understand that kind of like in A really, um, a
18:11
really simple way, which is, um, someone whose job relies on their being a
18:14
Christian. Um, and that you. And you can't do that job
18:16
unless you are a Christian, um, or
18:19
unless your church identifies you as a Christian. Sometimes it gets kind of blurry with
18:22
some church staff in some churches. But this idea of
18:25
like, well, to do this job. Well, to do this, you are
18:28
being paid in part because you are a Christian.
18:31
>> Loren: Yep.
18:32
>> Sarah: Um, and when you are in those types of
18:35
jobs, which include clergy jobs, but also include lots of church
18:37
staff jobs, it includes lots of nonprofit jobs working for
18:40
Christian schools, working for Christian
18:43
universities. Um, like it's not just
18:46
a pastor. Um, it's a much bigger
18:48
constellation. Um, there are
18:52
lots of structural things that make it difficult for
18:55
individuals to feel like they can be fully
18:58
themselves and they may feel like they have to
19:01
be smaller or be a particular way. Um, and I kind of group
19:04
them into four categories. Which one is
19:06
that, um, as a professional Christian, we are often held
19:09
up as, um, representatives of God
19:12
or representatives of Christianity. Like, here's how Christian should
19:15
be. Um, we must be Christian. This is how God should
19:18
be. People who are godly should be behaving.
19:21
Here's how their life should be. Um,
19:23
power. We often have relational power in those roles which,
19:27
which can be influenced but can be a lot of other things around that
19:29
type of power. Um, we are often held
19:32
to high moral standards or are
19:35
considered role models for, in our community. Like, oh,
19:38
don't you want to grow up to be like, Pastor so and so or Mrs. So
19:41
and so? The English teacher, like, well, you know, she's a godly lady and she
19:44
should, you know, these, these types of things that like, hold us to high
19:47
moral standards, which can be a really great thing, but
19:50
can also be. Make people be
19:53
a little bit fake in their. In the way that they
19:55
are. Um, and then especially for clergy
19:58
people, but you know, for some other types of people,
20:00
um, our religious roles may also be part
20:03
of our identity. So I think of that especially for clergy
20:06
because someone who is in the role of priest
20:09
is also in the identity of a priest.
20:12
Um, and that's not the case for all denominations, for all
20:15
clergy. Like, you know, there's lots of ways to be
20:18
a Christian. Right. Um, but that type of
20:21
thing of like who you are as a person and
20:24
being paid to be who you are, um, can
20:27
make it difficult. Like, well, what if not everything fits neatly into
20:30
that box? Um, what if. What if things.
20:33
What if you run into a circumstance in life? What if you go through that
20:36
Dark night. How does that relate to who you are as a
20:39
Christian? And that private thing in your heart, how does that relate
20:41
to how you are on the outside?
20:44
>> Loren: Yeah. These are so challenging
20:47
because I think in many ways
20:50
we would say, yes, you are
20:53
representative of God and that's a good thing. Uh,
20:56
yes, you should have a high moral standard.
20:59
Yes. Your,
21:02
like, role as a clergy should be part of your identity.
21:05
>> Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah.
21:07
>> Loren: And, you know, power certainly too. But also, like, these things
21:10
can go off the rails so easily.
21:12
>> Sarah: Yeah.
21:13
>> Loren: And I'm just thinking, like, I have a good friend who,
21:16
who was working in an evangelical space
21:19
and said to his pastor, like, hey, I don't know.
21:22
I don't know if I believe this anymore. And then, like, he was gone,
21:25
like, you know, a month later.
21:27
>> Sarah: Yep.
21:27
>> Loren: He was showing the door.
21:29
>> Sarah: Yep. And that's,
21:31
that's actually, that particular type of circumstance is something I
21:34
write about because it's like, you know, it's one
21:37
thing if you're single, but what, what if you've got your three kids and your
21:40
spouse and your health insurance and, like, and how
21:43
do you navigate that? And. And in. In a
21:46
way that is like, upright and full of
21:48
integrity, knowing that people do change. And I don't even. I'm not
21:51
even thinking just about, like, people who, like, you know,
21:54
quote unquote, lose their faith, but,
21:57
uh, you know, people whose perspective shifts
22:00
slightly m. And suddenly, like,
22:02
they're at odds with the particular granular details
22:05
of their statement of faith that they had to sign on to. To be
22:08
part of this particular church or whatever.
22:12
And where is that line in which I can work here, I cannot work
22:14
here? Um, and when do you have to tell people? When do you
22:17
have to not. Like, that's tricky.
22:20
That's really, really tricky.
22:22
>> Loren: Yeah. Because you're right about being a professional
22:24
Christian means that our livelihoods are contingent on
22:27
personal faith. And I'm thinking about this even
22:30
more broadly.
22:34
I've been in the job hunt for a
22:36
while, partly because I made
22:39
a decision to not step away
22:42
from professional ministry
22:45
in a clergy context. Just partly because
22:48
I needed to get paid more.
22:50
But being as I have,
22:53
uh, affinity for
22:56
faith and
22:59
missional work, like, I've tried to find
23:01
jobs in nonprofits that have
23:04
a faith component. But, like,
23:07
again, to your point, like, I've seen a
23:10
lot of Catholic churches or organizations hiring, and
23:12
they're like, we only will hire Catholics,
23:16
like, non profits who have a Christian base. Like, I'm
23:18
not.
23:22
>> Sarah: But you're not the right kind of Christian.
23:23
>> Loren: Right. The not kind of Christian and it's so flipping
23:25
frustrating. And I think, I think
23:28
even if I can be frank for a moment,
23:31
like, I tend to be in mainline
23:34
context the most, like. Mhm. I think this
23:36
happens in mainline context where it's just like,
23:40
you're not progressive or whatever,
23:43
uh, whatever adjective you want to use. You're not enough of
23:46
this for us. So it's like, it's. And I. I
23:49
guess I'm coming at it from the frustration of
23:52
the job perspective, which again, is part of this conversation
23:54
of like, it is so hard to find a job. A. And
23:57
then when it's like, it's not only like, can you do the job? It's
24:00
like, do you check the right boxes? Do you check the right
24:03
theological things? And it just. Yeah, it feels
24:06
impossible in many ways.
24:08
>> Sarah: Mhm. And I feel
24:11
like it's not. It's an issue that isn't
24:14
to me, not quite as clear for people who are clergy
24:17
working in their particular denomination, you know, potentially with a bishop
24:20
or that kind of setup, because their pathway is in so many ways
24:23
clear. And they might, you know, have a mismatch of their
24:26
politics with their congregations, general politics. Like, there can be
24:29
things like that. But for
24:32
the vast majority of other professional
24:35
Christians who are, you know, the m. Majority of people who I would consider professional
24:38
Christians are not clergy, um, it gets even more tricky
24:41
because so many of us didn't train to
24:44
work in a particular denominational space.
24:46
>> Loren: Right.
24:47
>> Sarah: In my case, I went and got a bachelor's degree in organ
24:50
performance.
24:50
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:51
>> Sarah: Like, that is not a
24:54
specifically religious degree. I mean, it was religious because I went to school,
24:57
but like. And people who do, you know, work in social work,
25:00
people who work in children's education, who then are children's
25:03
ministers and churches and those kinds of things, which is
25:05
wonderful. Um, it's really tricky because,
25:08
like, uh, I mean, I.
25:11
The example I use in my book is around Presbyterians because, as we
25:14
know, Presbyterians, um, whereas I would consider a
25:17
Catholicism is this big tent that has churches
25:20
that welcome, um, trans people and churches that are extremely conservative.
25:23
And you need to wear your lace head covering. Like, it's huge.
25:25
Right. Whereas Presbyterian is very fractious. And there's
25:28
like lots and lots and lots of flavors of
25:31
Presbyterianism. Right. And so if you're
25:34
this, you know, person who wants to teach
25:37
French and you're going to be hired by the
25:40
Presbyterian school. Okay. This is a thing,
25:43
you know, they're Presbyterian schools, affiliate with the churches. Well, what
25:45
variety of Presbyterian are they? And are you allowed
25:48
to XYZ Whatever.
25:50
>> Loren: Yeah.
25:51
>> Sarah: And like to have to navigate through that
25:54
and even understand. Oh,
25:57
that this is a thing that you should be asking. It's
26:00
not readily apparent, um, that you should
26:02
ask or not ask. And things are also like, not
26:05
um, not as clear in terms of
26:08
like personal behavior. And I'm not, I'm not talking about like at school,
26:11
but like, who are you allowed to marry? Who are you allowed to hang out with? Are you allowed to
26:14
drink? Like things that for most people would
26:17
not even register, but like it's,
26:20
it's an actual thing for people who are in that broader.
26:23
Because different people have,
26:25
um, kind of think of it as like an unspoken
26:28
expectation. Well, of course people should, blah, blah, blah. But that
26:31
of course is different in different
26:34
denominations and different, uh, individual, uh,
26:36
institutions.
26:38
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Let's shift
26:41
this a little bit because I want to talk about power
26:44
in ministry context. I think obviously
26:49
the context that uh, in fairness,
26:52
gets like the most shame
26:55
of late. And I think for good reason, like I said,
26:58
is in evangelical settings, often
27:00
power is
27:04
again, again it seems like abused. That being said,
27:07
I think what I've seen in
27:10
mainline context or progressive context is I feel like
27:13
sometimes there's this real hesitancy to
27:16
use any kind of power, which I don't think is also
27:20
helpful. And I'm just kind of curious.
27:23
I'm just curious. That gets so complicated. So how do you,
27:26
how do you, about, how do you talk about it?
27:28
>> Sarah: And I have to say I, I do agree. Um, I sometimes
27:31
feel like people who are in positions. Power have
27:34
to own that position of power and realize that they
27:37
are in power and not, um,
27:40
like I feel like to pretend otherwise is to do a
27:43
disservice to the volunteers working with them.
27:45
>> Loren: Yes.
27:46
>> Sarah: Or maybe, maybe they are themselves a volunteer, but it does a
27:49
disservice to not own the power that is like implicit in
27:52
a position.
27:53
>> Loren: Yeah, I've, I felt that if I can jump in like
27:55
personally, even as a clergy person, working with
27:59
folks above me, where it's like, we're on
28:01
this, you know, when they come at me like, hey, we're on the same. It's like,
28:04
no, we're not on the same level. Like, you can clearly have
28:08
significant influence over my career.
28:11
>> Sarah: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and I, I
28:13
do understand like that impulse.
28:16
Um, but at the end of the day,
28:19
like some people can fire other people.
28:21
>> Loren: Right.
28:22
>> Sarah: That's just how it goes. And that is, that is
28:25
power. And um, some people are privy to things that other people are
28:28
not privy to. And like, when I think about, like, power for
28:31
professional Christians. Um, some of that is literally just
28:34
you end up knowing a lot of personal information about
28:36
people. Like, every week in the, uh,
28:39
worship design committee that I am co
28:42
leading, um, where I work, um, we pray for, like,
28:45
six different families or six different individuals, um,
28:48
every week, roughly speaking. And
28:50
we're not sitting there gossiping, but, like, I don't know, the
28:53
hundreds of people in the church directory. And so we'll be like, oh, that's so and
28:56
so. And that's so and so and so. Like, I know who, like,
28:59
you know, I know, like, some difficult stories for people. And these are not like,
29:02
personally, like, this is not like a gossip thing, but it's like, oh, I know
29:05
that their kid died a few years ago.
29:06
>> Loren: Right.
29:06
>> Sarah: I know that, like, oh, they haven't been to church in a while because they got
29:09
upset about whatever the thing was, and they'll come back, you know, that kind of
29:12
thing. Um, so again, it's not like, you know,
29:15
intimate details necessarily, but then there's also places where it's
29:18
just like, you know, you end up with, like, all kinds of stories that are kind of told to you
29:21
in confidence.
29:22
>> Loren: Right.
29:23
>> Sarah: Um, and. Or, I mean, I don't do
29:25
pastoral counseling, but then there's that whole thing of, like,
29:28
you're pastorally counseling people and what can you share?
29:31
And, and so back to the whole, like, why is this tricky for
29:34
professional Christians? Because we're not therapists.
29:37
>> Loren: Yeah.
29:38
>> Sarah: And therapists have an, A very
29:41
clear, mandated division between their
29:43
life and their client's life, their patient's life.
29:46
That is a very. We have HIPAA laws for, for medical
29:49
professionals. That's very clear what you can share and what you
29:52
can't share. And church people, I mean,
29:55
we raise our kids together. Like,
29:58
you know, I went to the, Went to the apple picking with,
30:01
you know, the lady in my choir and her little kid, and
30:03
that's totally fine, and that's totally okay. And I'm, um, also not, you
30:06
know, doing pastoral counseling, but, like, the social
30:09
separation isn't there in the way that it is for,
30:12
um, people in some other professions. Um, we also have
30:15
lots of influence and, um, there's, you know, lots of ways
30:18
to think about it, but I, I just think of it a lot of times
30:21
as people pay attention to what we say.
30:24
Not always. And I'm sure some pastors would be like, oh, my God, have you
30:27
seen people during the sermon? They're not paying attention,
30:30
but generally speaking, uh, people will listen to
30:33
what we say. Um, pastors maybe, uh,
30:36
Pastors especially, you, um, know,
30:39
perspective on the news station,
30:40
um, just.
30:43
Just like. Like having that. That clergy collar on where it's just like, oh,
30:46
here's someone that I should sit up and pay attention to.
30:49
Um, in. In my little world as the music
30:52
director, where it's just like, you know, I'm. I'm in charge of the
30:54
room and I wish that they
30:57
listen more than they do. Sometimes they chat a little bit much. We
31:00
have a good time. Um, but, you know, generally speaking, like. Like I.
31:03
I basically have the floor and people will listen to what I
31:06
say. And that is a. That is a power that we have to
31:09
own and we have to be responsible for. And,
31:12
um, sometimes that comes with obligation. When, uh,
31:15
I was doing this book, I interviewed quite a few people in
31:18
ministry, and especially ministry in areas that I don't work
31:21
in. Like, I, you know, I interviewed people who do chaplaincy. I
31:24
interviewed, um, teachers and pastors and people who
31:27
don't work in the same area that I do.
31:29
Um, and many people spoke about what they felt like
31:32
was an obligation to comment on certain public
31:34
issues. To, um.
31:38
I mean, I think rightly so say, like, you know, here's a Christian
31:41
perspective or the perspective of the historic church is this. Can we have a
31:44
conversation about it? Um, but then they also talked
31:47
about, like, the flip side of that obligation was
31:50
this sense of feeling like they shouldn't say too much
31:53
because people could treat their opinion
31:56
as something that they should do. And just because pastor so and
31:59
so has the opinion just because, uh, you know,
32:01
Matrushka so and so thinks this doesn't mean
32:04
that the person should do it.
32:06
Um, and,
32:08
um, I remember visiting a church one time
32:11
once, um, because the priest there was asking me about why I wasn't
32:14
homeschooling my children. And I went, oh,
32:17
that is not how power is supposed to flow. That. You just met me.
32:20
That's not. This is not an appropriate use
32:23
of power. Um, you know, clearly,
32:26
in that person's opinion, it was. Um.
32:29
But that is something that I think, especially in the age of social
32:31
media and easy communication and an expectation
32:34
that pastors, um, and churches and other people have
32:37
like, um, opinions to share. Um, but it might be
32:40
the. Has to be exactly the right kind. Other people will be angry at
32:43
you. Um, but like, this expectation that they'll speak up, it gets
32:46
really, really tricky, um, about what they should speak up, what they shouldn't speak
32:49
up, and, you know, all the different boundaries there. And like,
32:52
uh, it's really ethically compensated. Like, it's not
32:55
Always a clear should or shouldn't.
32:57
>> Loren: Yeah, I worked for a church that was not a huge church
33:00
but had m, you know, multi, several
33:03
staff. So I'm thinking about like prayer requests being
33:06
shared in staff meeting amongst folks who are
33:09
like me had seminary training and years of
33:11
experience and also somebody who was like the church
33:14
janitor, you know. And then I'm thinking
33:17
like it had a preschool attached. So there
33:20
were some in the staff
33:22
guidebook, there were some social media
33:28
guidelines because hey, of course they didn't
33:31
want you trashing
33:34
the church or the preschool
33:37
on social media. But also like you said,
33:39
certainly in this day and age if
33:42
a staff member and even if they're,
33:46
you know, a janitor makes like a strong political
33:49
statement, that can be complicated at best.
33:52
Uh, right, yeah, yeah.
33:55
>> Sarah: And this I think something we haven't talked about yet, but
33:58
there's really a big part of this is the perception of the
34:01
people that we work with. The people who are not professional Christians
34:04
but who are deeply embedded in the work that we do.
34:07
And their expectation about
34:09
what we on the professional side of things
34:12
are allowed to do, um, is very, very
34:15
difficult. And sometimes as far as I can see, especially in
34:18
the mainline, um, their expectation can be much smaller than what is
34:21
actually true. Like well, you're a,
34:24
a um, religious professional, therefore you should XYZ
34:27
or you're not supposed to xyz, whatever the things are.
34:29
Um, and you know, the social standards
34:32
of Mrs. M so and so who's 95
34:35
are pretty different from your,
34:38
you know, Gen Z up and coming
34:41
clergy person. And that's not a bad thing. It's
34:44
just like, you know, what, what Mrs. So and so who's 95 thinks is just
34:47
polite speech is different from what a
34:50
25 year old thinks is polite speech. Like these are, these are
34:53
just, I mean I don't even think those are Christian things so much as just
34:56
cultural things.
34:56
>> Loren: Right.
34:57
>> Sarah: Um, but um, can be very
35:00
tricky especially if people think about that in terms of
35:03
identity because what you can do is not necessarily what you
35:05
should do. Like I always joke um, with my Clark. I work
35:08
with very, very progressive, um, and very
35:11
polite Methodists. And
35:14
I always joke with them how we bring our good manners to
35:16
choir. And that means I don't bring my potty mouth to choir
35:19
because like I'm working with people from like
35:21
teenagers up into 89
35:24
I think is my oldest person. That's a huge social range
35:27
of what is appropriate behavior. And so while ah, some
35:30
people, uh, you know, I, I
35:32
personally feel like I have to be respectful of that spectrum. And
35:35
so in a way, I make myself, you know, quote unquote, smaller. But I don't think of
35:38
it as smaller so much. Just like, I'm behaving in a professional. That's
35:42
appropriate to this context. And sometimes
35:44
people feel like, oh, that isn't appropriate to this context.
35:47
That's me being a fake version of myself. That is me being
35:50
a dishonest version of myself. Um,
35:53
and I mean, something that gets into, like,
35:56
individual. Like, well, what is really important, like, what is truly your
35:59
identity and what is just your
36:01
presentation in this particular moment? Is that against your
36:04
identity? Is that just.
36:07
Let's.
36:07
>> Loren: Let's go deeper into that. Because I did want to ask about that. And I think
36:10
that's important because I feel like it's a
36:13
challenge, especially for, uh,
36:16
the circles I tend to run most in. Younger
36:18
clergy, who similarly, like you've kind
36:21
of hinted at, can often have a mismatch between
36:24
their own religious and political
36:26
views and the churches they're serving in.
36:29
And there's this. You write in the book about authenticity versus
36:32
sincerity, about transparency
36:35
versus contextually appropriate.
36:37
So I think the example of you
36:40
made the idea of cussing, for instance,
36:46
and I think it's made more
36:49
challenging by what I'll say, uh,
36:51
as I've read from other authors, is
36:54
there's this kind of cultural norm of if
36:57
you can't wear it all on your sleeve, you're
37:00
being not true to yourself, inauthentic, you're
37:03
being oppressed, what have you. So it
37:06
creates a real hard dynamic. So talking
37:09
through that in greater detail.
37:11
>> Sarah: Yeah, authenticity is something that was, uh, actually the genesis of
37:14
this book. I'd been looking at authenticity from a lot of
37:17
angles, a lot of different contexts, especially in
37:19
fundamentalism. But one thing that I kept
37:22
coming back to was among the many ways of understanding
37:25
authenticity, um, one is that authenticity
37:28
as a. Of good value is being natural or
37:31
spontaneous. And that this is like the truest version of self.
37:34
And this comes from, like, Jacques Rousseau in the French Enlightenment.
37:37
And like, there's. There's a. There's a whole thing there, but, like,
37:40
boiling it down to essence. This idea that we often use in
37:43
America when we talk about authenticity is that to be true
37:46
to yourself is the highest good. And what being, quote,
37:48
unquote, true to yourself is. Is simply being,
37:51
uh, in your gut emotion, in your spontaneity, in
37:54
your. I felt it, I did it. It's all on my sleeve. You
37:57
can see it all. And that is the truest way
38:00
and. And the highest good and
38:03
if you are in a professional setting, oh my
38:06
goodness, that's not going to get you very far.
38:08
>> Loren: Yeah.
38:09
>> Sarah: So, but what that does, that understanding of like, well, this kind of
38:12
authenticity is the best way of being. This is the truest self.
38:15
This is in many ways I'm not, I don't, I'm, to be clear,
38:18
I'm not agreeing with this, but some people may say, oh, well, this is the most
38:21
Christian way of being because it's the most true. I don't agree.
38:24
Um, but that sets up
38:27
a sense of if I behave in what many people
38:29
would consider a professional way, then I am being fake,
38:32
I'm being false, I'm being untrue, I'm being untrue to
38:35
myself. And then because we're adding in that layer of
38:38
Christianity, um, I'm in some way being not true to God
38:41
because I'm behaving in this way that is limiting in some way
38:44
or not spontaneous. Spontaneous.
38:46
And what I wanted to
38:49
argue for, what I did argue for in my book
38:52
is that there are other ways of understanding,
38:55
um, personal integrity and I mean
38:58
authenticity, sincerity, other ways of understanding self,
39:01
present presentation in a given real time
39:03
moment that I personally feel are much more
39:06
helpful in that professional setting. And one
39:09
of those particularly helpful ways for me is this
39:12
understanding of sincerity, which is kind of like a cousin of
39:15
authenticity, which for me is
39:18
like, uh, you know, being who you say you are.
39:20
And that allows us
39:23
a conceptual framework for not being spontaneous
39:26
but also being true to who we are. So for
39:29
instance, uh, my husband is a physician
39:32
and sometimes deals with like really, you know, lots of
39:34
blood everywhere. And like a gut
39:37
response to that is like, this is horrible. Right?
39:40
Yeah, like, like, you know, some emotional. That is the gut response.
39:43
>> Loren: Right, Right.
39:44
>> Sarah: But the, that's not the professional response. You need to run the code.
39:46
You need to. So you, you are not
39:49
being, quote, unquote spontaneous. You're going to the plan. This
39:52
is how we run a code. This is what we're doing. That's not
39:55
spontaneous. That is planned in advance, that is
39:58
practiced in advance and that is what the person
40:00
needs. And in a professional setting, like we may
40:03
encounter, um, people will sometimes tell you really horrible
40:06
things.
40:07
>> Loren: Right.
40:07
>> Sarah: And um, you know, especially if you're doing like
40:10
pastoral counseling or um, chaplaincy, there are really
40:13
terrible things and people do not want your gut
40:16
response. That is not what people need in that moment.
40:19
You need a professional response. The professional response is the
40:22
loving response, is the godly response, is the Christian
40:24
response, but it is not spontaneous and it is
40:27
not quote, unquote, natural. We've
40:30
practiced it. We planned for it. Um, I think this comes
40:33
up especially for people like me who work in
40:35
music. We practice and practice and practice and
40:38
practice. And sometimes people then accuse us of
40:40
performing on Sunday because we are in that
40:43
mindset of, like, you know, I want to make sure it all goes together right.
40:46
And I think of that as no, I deeply care about what I'm
40:49
doing, and I am
40:53
living out that care and that, uh, that love
40:55
for the people around me in that.
40:59
That way that I present in the. In the church service. And that doesn't. Just
41:02
because I'm not, like, in my emotions, with my emotions on
41:05
my sleeve does not mean I'm fake. And this comes up
41:07
especially a lot for, uh, preachers and vocalists on Sunday
41:11
morning because, like, you know, in a church service,
41:14
um, because especially, uh, vocalists in,
41:17
like, more evangelical or contemporary settings, um, they're asked
41:20
to emote with their faces. Um, and if you're not
41:23
emoting in the particular way, you're not, quote, unquote, leading worship in the right
41:25
way, that particular style of worship.
41:27
>> Loren: Yes.
41:28
>> Sarah: It's not what I do. I'm an organist. I'm kind of hidden a little bit. I
41:30
got my serious face on. But that is many, many Christians are
41:33
asked to do that in church services. Pastors are asked to do that when they
41:36
preach. Preachers, just whoever's preaching to have that
41:39
emotive facial, that affective.
41:42
The conversations after the church service where you are, like,
41:45
emotionally engaged with people, and that needs to show up on your
41:48
face. In our American cultural context, this face needs
41:51
to be engaged and needs to have smiles on it. Right. Um.
41:53
Well, what happens if you're going through something really difficult
41:56
and you don't feel like it? Your emotions are
41:59
not in line with
42:02
what worship looks like in your particular setting on Sunday
42:05
morning. Right. Um, that, to me, is
42:08
where, um, preparation comes in, and it's where sincerity
42:11
comes in, where it's just like, we're being who we are. And who we
42:14
are can be. We can be sad, and we can be
42:16
leading in the way that people need us. At the same time, it doesn't have to be a
42:19
fake thing. It's only, like,
42:22
fake if, like, we're lying or we are
42:25
thinking that we're lying because we're not being spontaneous.
42:29
>> Loren: Yeah.
42:30
>> Sarah: I mean, there's a lot of layers. Sorry. This is a long
42:33
chapter. Uh, that's a good chapter, though.
42:36
That's kind of like the nutshell of what I'm arguing,
42:38
um, in terms of how we can understand being
42:41
true, uh, and full of integrity in those
42:44
spaces.
42:45
>> Loren: Yeah. I think it's such
42:48
an important point because I appreciate, and I appreciate your
42:50
example of the stereotypical
42:53
evangelical worship leader, like you said, has got to be kind
42:56
of big and emotive and their faith
42:59
kind of overflowing and they could be going through a personal
43:02
season where they're just, they're just in the
43:05
valley of the shadow of death. Right. And the
43:08
cultural expectation is like, you cannot show that on
43:11
stage. And I think conversely,
43:14
um, from the context I find myself in, like in a mainline
43:17
preaching context, it's almost like if the pastor is
43:20
too performative in their preaching, it's like,
43:23
hold on, what's going on here? This is not a show.
43:26
But there's got to be some kind of nuance
43:29
or space. Right? For both.
43:32
>> Sarah: Yeah.
43:32
>> Loren: And so I think this leads
43:35
into something else I want to talk about.
43:38
Um, because I think I'm thinking of, I don't know if you ever
43:41
watched the Good Place of when Ellen becomes
43:44
disintegrated. Right. I can't remember if that's season three or
43:46
four. Let me see if I can find this here in your book.
43:50
So page 93, you write about being
43:53
disintegrated.
43:54
>> Sarah: Hm.
43:55
>> Loren: Uh, you write, if we want to be integrated, we can't set ourselves up
43:58
for disintegration. So let's
44:01
just think about this. To stay in that example of like whether
44:04
it's an evangelical worship leader going
44:07
through a really rough time either personally
44:10
in their family, with their faith, whatever, being
44:12
very emotive, uh, and expressive in their, in their,
44:15
in their leading up on stage, whether
44:18
it's a, whether it's a
44:21
pastor from a more, you
44:24
know, traditional tie down
44:27
context who doesn't want
44:29
faith to be just about performance,
44:32
but also wants to perform their
44:35
sermon or their message. Well,
44:38
these things can feel very
44:40
disintegrating. How do we stay
44:43
integrated?
44:44
>> Sarah: Yeah, yeah. I feel like there are a lot of, lot of
44:47
answers there. Um, one that
44:50
many people that I interviewed spoke about was the importance
44:53
of having a close circle of friends and counselors
44:56
and understanding that like, what is said in those
44:58
spaces is not, doesn't have to be
45:01
like untrue to the more public aspects of what
45:04
we do.
45:05
>> Loren: Yeah.
45:06
>> Sarah: But that provides a place for us to
45:08
be anchored and moored and,
45:11
um, have people really know who we
45:14
are, like in a more broad sense than
45:17
most congregants or volunteers that we work
45:20
with, then those people would get to know us, um, and
45:23
how important that is. So that
45:25
we are helping, having people around us
45:28
who know us well, who are, um, in
45:31
some ways being a mirror to us and showing us who we are. Is
45:34
this who we are? Um, but I
45:37
would also say, like, one huge, important, huge
45:40
part of this is just making sure that we are in a workplace
45:43
that aligns with core aspects of who we
45:46
are, like, as a baseline. And that's really
45:49
tricky because, like, we all need to, like, pay our rent and eat and.
45:52
Right. Um, and.
45:55
But. But having. Having that kind of
45:57
foundational, like, my values are
46:00
basically aligned with the values that are. That I'm called
46:03
to have as a professional Christian in this space. Like,
46:06
the. The. Those things are in alignment.
46:09
Um, everything else can kind of flow from that. And then, of
46:12
course, then there's also like, the whole idea of, like, well, we go through difficult
46:15
circumstances and we can't always share those difficult
46:18
circumstances, um, in more public ways
46:21
or not everyone needs to know all of those things.
46:23
Um, and I think some of
46:26
this is also, like, we have to realize that sometimes people can have
46:29
misperceptions, and that's not always
46:32
our problem.
46:32
>> Loren: Yes.
46:33
>> Sarah: Um, sometimes people really think that they know us really well
46:36
because they see what we post on social media, or they
46:39
see us every week at Bible study. And
46:42
therefore they know us really well. And like, they know part of us really
46:45
well, but they're also not our best friend. They're also not our spouse.
46:48
They're like. Yeah. And I feel like these
46:51
days, especially because social, um, media
46:53
and like, being on zoom and stuff, like, you know, here I'm sitting here at
46:56
my dining room table, you can see what my house looks like.
46:59
Like, in the past, that wouldn't have been publicly available
47:02
to people. But like, these days, you know,
47:04
I'm. Especially during the pandemic, like, I led my
47:07
choir through the pandemic. My hand built people through
47:10
the pandemic. And, you know, they saw like my whole house.
47:13
>> Loren: Right.
47:13
>> Sarah: Um, you know, they saw my children all the time in
47:16
a way that, like, uh, it makes it feel like, very
47:19
intimate. Um, and in some ways, like, like, it
47:22
is, but it's also not the whole story.
47:25
And, um, like, we can't always help
47:28
that people don't understand that difference. Like, people can be really
47:30
naive about that. Uh, and
47:33
especially like, if they don't quite understand, like, that kind of
47:36
parasocial.
47:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
47:37
>> Sarah: Not always paradoxical, but, like, that sense that, like,
47:39
there's more to it and, um, not.
47:42
Not everyone really wants to understand that or
47:45
is able to understand that. Yeah.
47:47
>> Loren: And I think boundaries here Is an important conversation. Right. Like,
47:50
at some point it's on us,
47:53
the professional Christians, so to speak, to have our own boundaries.
47:56
We can't expect people to know. What
47:58
boundaries?
47:59
>> Sarah: Yeah, you know, I mean, they haven't thought about
48:02
it. Like, why would they be thinking about it?
48:03
>> Loren: Right, right. And
48:06
I think what often so happens, uh, this is my
48:09
perspective at least I think generally speaking, most
48:12
people ask or seek
48:15
further engagement, whatever.
48:18
They mean well, and they're not trying to
48:20
impose, but they're going to keep asking till we
48:23
say no. Or that's, you know. No, I'm sorry,
48:26
I can't have you over my house. No, I'm sorry, I can't stay
48:29
late. No, I'm sorry, I don't want to.
48:33
Whatever. Have a meal with you every other Tuesday.
48:36
Um,
48:40
I think it was the.
48:42
I have an episode in the past with Todd
48:45
Ferguson and Josh Packard, and then there's another book
48:48
they have. I can't remember the book, but a very
48:51
similar thing about the importance of
48:53
clergy. And they talk from a clergy perspective. But I
48:56
think this tracks having.
49:00
Having these boundaries or
49:02
circles of. Can't remember the exact
49:05
words, you know, of kind of
49:08
relationships. Right. Of, you
49:10
know, in one context, like, you're going to behave one
49:13
way on stage in the green room, for
49:16
instance, a very evangelical term. I know, but in the green room,
49:19
you can kind of let your hair down, but also like to just
49:22
be really cut and dry. Like, you can't, like,
49:25
you know, you can't take your. Can't take your shoes off.
49:28
Right. Um, at home, maybe you can take your shoes
49:31
off. You're not being untrue to yourself. And I
49:34
also think, like, correct me if
49:37
I'm wrong here, if you disagree, but I feel like we have this
49:39
really strong cultural thing towards, like,
49:42
transparency where it's like you've got,
49:45
like. If you're not showing everything to everybody, it's like you're
49:48
not being you. And I'm just one. Like. Like,
49:51
hey, Like, I m. Don't need to see that on social media.
49:54
Like, you don't. You don't need to show me that.
49:56
>> Sarah: I think that that goes back to this, like, idea of, like, authenticity
49:59
is natural. Has a long cultural
50:02
history.
50:02
>> Loren: Yeah.
50:03
>> Sarah: 20, 24. But yeah, I feel like a lot of,
50:06
um, a lot of social media and things around
50:09
social media, um, allow for more transparency,
50:12
which, you know, if that's what people want in their life, fine.
50:14
Um, but it. Because it's allowed for.
50:17
Because there is a place for it. Um, it's
50:20
more, um, people may have more
50:23
expectation from it. Yeah,
50:26
I, um, actually post a lot less on social media these
50:28
days. Um, in part because, like, I have a baby, I'm
50:31
real busy, but also because I'm just, like,
50:34
I just don't. I don't want to have to go through that. Like, huh, what
50:37
should I post? When should I post? Oh, if I don't post for a week,
50:40
are people going to be worried about me? Like, I just, I just,
50:44
I'm really tired. I have lots of kids. I don't have the
50:47
energy for that right now. Um,
50:50
and, you know, that's. If people have a problem
50:53
with that, that's kind of. It's kind of on them.
50:55
>> Loren: Right. And I think that's so much of it. Right. It's just kind of being okay
50:58
with some people not being okay.
51:00
>> Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and that doesn't, you know, back
51:03
to, like, the whole idea of integrity. Like, we should still be acting with integrity
51:06
in all of these places. Like, ah, people can be meeting you in one place
51:09
and being radically surprised because of your behavior in a different
51:12
place. Like, I think most people understand, oh, if I meet you in a
51:15
marathon, you are going to then look different at your job on Tuesday
51:18
morning. Like, people get that kind of difference. But if you are
51:20
acting, like, acting radically different in one place
51:23
and in another place, like, in ways that are at odds with each other,
51:26
like, that is a problem and that is,
51:30
um, not a righteous way to live. That's just not. You should
51:33
not be acting like that.
51:34
>> Loren: Yeah.
51:35
>> Sarah: Um, and sometimes we all do this. We sometimes act in ways that are
51:37
not, um, in line with our values, that are not in line with how we would
51:40
hope that we are and that we're people. And people do
51:43
that.
51:45
>> Loren: Well, the book is professional. Being fully
51:47
yourself in the spotlight of public ministry. I feel like,
51:50
like we could continue to have this conversation for a
51:53
while. There's a lot of good content. I
51:56
want to recommend the book. Sarah, let's take a break
51:59
and we'll come back with some closing questions.
52:02
Do you need a minute? Otherwise, I'll just reintroduce you.
52:05
Okay. Barisa. Right.
52:09
Okay. All right. We're back with Dr. Sarah
52:11
Bereza Thank you so much for the conversation
52:14
and for your time. Let's go into
52:17
these closing questions. You're welcome to take these as
52:20
seriously or not as you'd like to, but
52:23
if you're poked for a day, what might that day
52:26
look like for you?
52:27
>> Sarah: Oh, uh, it would involve universal healthcare.
52:31
>> Loren: Pretty simple.
52:32
>> Sarah: Yep.
52:34
>> Loren: Okay. See, I always try to take notes and you got me so quick,
52:37
I did not have time to write this down.
52:42
Okay, um. A theologian or historical figure do you want
52:45
to meet or bring back to life?
52:48
>> Sarah: Oh, man, that one is really
52:51
tricky. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of,
52:54
uh, musicians that I would. That I would love to meet,
52:57
um, or at least hear their music live in
53:00
the original settings. I love the composer Claudio
53:02
Monteverdi, who lived in the 15, um, hundreds,
53:05
1600s. And, man, if I could hear his music live in
53:08
the day, make me real happy.
53:10
>> Loren: Oh, you have got to listen to.
53:13
It was my conversation last week.
53:15
>> Sarah: Uh-huh.
53:17
>> Loren: So for listeners, you have better listened to it here.
53:20
David Taylor, he, uh,
53:22
answered this question by, I think, if I'm remembering
53:25
correctly, naming off, like, six
53:28
hymn writers historically
53:31
and wanting to get them in a room. One was like family
53:34
Crosby. One was, I think, Hildegard.
53:37
>> Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.
53:38
>> Loren: So that would be entertaining.
53:41
Um, okay. I'm sorry. I. I got distracted. Did you
53:44
say. Who did you say? You said him, Right?
53:46
>> Sarah: Oh, Claudia Monteverdi.
53:47
>> Loren: Claudia.
53:47
>> Sarah: I love his music. I wouldn't be able to talk to him. I don't speak
53:50
Italian. Uh, but.
53:53
>> Loren: Okay, who do you, uh.
53:56
Who. What's my question here? What do you think history will
53:59
remember from our current time and place?
54:01
>> Sarah: Oh, I hope it remembers a, uh, turn towards
54:04
democracy and,
54:05
uh, uh,
54:08
reliance on the power of the people. I certainly
54:11
hope that is the turn that we take. I
54:14
don't know that that will be, but I pray and hope that that is
54:17
where we are at this point. Yeah.
54:19
>> Loren: Ah, I'm thinking. When is this episode going to be
54:22
released? We'll see.
54:25
>> Sarah: Yeah. Um, we should say we're recording in October.
54:28
I don't know where things are going, and I don't.
54:31
>> Loren: What do you hope for the future of Christianity?
54:34
>> Sarah: Oh, uh, more unity. I
54:37
would hope for the mainline, that the, um. Especially
54:40
for the Mainline, that the coming decades of
54:43
mergers and potentially,
54:46
um, denominational mergers. I hope that that
54:48
is, um, full of Christian love and
54:51
charity and desire for the good of people and
54:54
not. Not, um, uh, uh,
54:57
tribalism. Not holding tight onto our own personal
54:59
little treasures. But I'm sharing freely and
55:02
widely.
55:03
>> Loren: Okay, so you said there. I have to ask. Real
55:06
quick. I, uh, have a friend who has suggested that
55:09
really all the mainline denominations
55:12
need to just merge into one
55:15
mega denomination.
55:17
Like, real quick, any thoughts?
55:20
>> Sarah: You mentioned that I would be very surprised if in a hundred
55:23
years, that's not where, like, I don't
55:26
see this regionalism,
55:29
um, which comes out of, you know, the Protestant Reformation and also
55:32
comes out of immigration in the United States.
55:35
>> Loren: Right.
55:35
>> Sarah: That we would have so many different flavors of
55:38
kind of really close to the same thing. And,
55:41
um, I mean, I say this is like, kind of on the outside of the
55:43
main line. I don't have a strong, like, um.
55:46
>> Loren: Dog in the fight.
55:47
>> Sarah: No, I don't like, you know, I love John Wesley, I love Martin Luther,
55:50
but it's not like one of those is my homeboy or something. Like, I
55:53
don't get those cultural kinds of
55:55
affinities in the same way. Um,
55:57
but I really see, like, there's so
56:00
much more similarity, and if the mainland could
56:03
become more of a big tent Catholic, um,
56:06
churches, I would certainly pray and hope that that's what
56:09
happens. Um, we do not need
56:12
the divisions in the way that we currently have.
56:14
>> Loren: Who's, like, maybe you don't know this, but you mentioned
56:16
Presbyterians. The Presbyterians. Who's their. I
56:19
guess is that Luther is their guy.
56:22
Like, I'm m. Ordained Disciples of Christ. So like,
56:25
Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell are like our
56:28
kind of, like, folks.
56:30
>> Sarah: Yeah. The Presbyterians have. Have Calvin.
56:32
>> Loren: Calvin. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And then
56:35
I guess what, uh, American Baptist would they
56:38
go? John.
56:39
>> Sarah: Roger Williams.
56:40
>> Loren: Roger Williams. Thank you. Yeah.
56:41
>> Sarah: Yes.
56:42
>> Loren: We're just kind of playing mention of my childhood historical
56:45
games here.
56:45
>> Sarah: John Huss, maybe.
56:47
>> Loren: Sure, sure. Yeah. Who's
56:50
the other. Who am I forgetting?
56:53
So we got the methods. We got the Presbyterians,
56:56
ucc, Episcopalians. Episcopalians.
56:59
>> Sarah: I don't know. We're have Henry viii.
57:01
>> Loren: Henry viii, Right.
57:02
>> Sarah: Living in the same regard now. Who wrote. Who wrote
57:06
the Book of Common Prayer? Is that Thomas Cranmer?
57:08
>> Loren: Oh, I mean, I have.
57:11
>> Sarah: There you go.
57:12
>> Loren: That's pretty prominent right here in front of me. I don't
57:15
know. I don't. I don't use it enough to know it.
57:17
Um, okay. And I have no idea. The
57:19
Congregationalists. Gosh. I mean, the UC really goes
57:22
back to the Congregationalists and then.
57:24
>> Sarah: Yeah. And the Evangelical Reform Church.
57:27
>> Loren: Like that.
57:27
>> Sarah: Murder.
57:28
>> Loren: Right.
57:29
>> Sarah: And I have no idea who the Evangelical Reform.
57:32
I don't know the history there. Yeah.
57:34
>> Loren: I mean, because there's some.
57:35
>> Sarah: Is that also kind of like. That's kind of cousin to Baptist, like
57:38
that. Like, we're very American and we do our own thing.
57:40
>> Loren: Right, Right.
57:41
>> Sarah: Yeah, we do our own thing. Which, you know, talking
57:44
about, like, potential denominational mergers and, like that.
57:46
Denominational disintegration, like, that's really hard.
57:49
Um, in a, uh, place where culture is very, like,
57:52
my stuff is mine.
57:54
>> Loren: Right.
57:55
>> Sarah: Butt out and find your own. Your own place. Like
57:57
That's.
57:58
>> Loren: Well, yeah, because especially hurdle. Yeah, because
58:01
especially. I think, like, there's so many,
58:04
like, in the incar. In denominations
58:07
that have a more
58:09
congregational. What's
58:12
the word? I'm blanking. Model.
58:13
>> Sarah: The polity.
58:14
>> Loren: Polity. Thank you. Yes. You know, like,
58:18
the denomination can say whatever they want. The congregation's
58:20
like, uh, whatever.
58:22
>> Sarah: We're doing what we want.
58:22
>> Loren: We're doing what we want to do.
58:25
>> Sarah: Firsthand experience with that recently where the church
58:28
where I worked, a Methodist church, United
58:31
Methodist, merged with another congregation about a
58:33
year before I started working there. And, uh, it has
58:36
been so good for them. It's been
58:40
the best that you could have right out of a
58:42
merger. And I
58:45
just. I'm so thankful that they
58:48
were in a place where they had a bishop who was like, well, you don't merge.
58:51
We get your money and your building, so maybe you should merge. And
58:54
you got six months. And they made it happen. Um, because these
58:57
congregational churches that are dwindling and dwindling and
58:59
dwindling don't have that kick in the pants from
59:02
someone in the hierarchy making them do it. So if they have the money, if they
59:05
got the endowment, they can hold on forever. Need a kick in the
59:08
pants. Um, all four of them in the basement as the roof
59:11
leaks. Um, instead of going and
59:14
being in Christian community with
59:17
other people, um,
59:19
I mean, to me, it's a shame, but it's also just human nature. If
59:22
you have a bunch of volunteers running things, like, it's a lot of work
59:25
to make a merger happen. There's a lot of work, and it's a lot of, um,
59:28
selflessness. It's so difficult. So if
59:31
you don't have, you know, the bishop,
59:34
the district supervisor, the whoever it is, the presbyter,
59:37
like, saying, well, you have to do this, then
59:40
to make it happen. It's just really.
59:42
>> Loren: Yep.
59:43
>> Sarah: Really difficult.
59:44
>> Loren: Yep. Well, let's leave it there. On that note,
59:49
where can people connect with you and, uh, find out more about your
59:52
work?
59:52
>> Sarah: Oh, find me online. You, uh, can search for my name. I am
59:55
the musician, not the artist. There's another person with my same name,
59:58
similar in age to me. My website is
1:00:01
sarah-bariza. B
1:00:04
E R E Z A dot com and I also have a
1:00:07
free newsletter that I send sporadically, but it's full of book
1:00:09
recommendations and music that I love.
1:00:12
>> Loren: All right, well, this has been a great conversation. Really
1:00:15
appreciate your time, and, uh, enjoyed reading the
1:00:18
book, having me.
1:00:19
>> Sarah: This has been wonderful.
1:00:20
>> Loren: Yeah. Thank you. So I always leave folks with a word of peace, so may
1:00:23
God's peace be with you.
1:00:24
>> Sarah: Amen to that.
1:00:32
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
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The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1:00:38
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
1:00:41
questions, comments and ideas for future
1:00:43
episodes. Visit our website@uh,
1:00:46
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1:00:49
for form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with
1:00:52
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It really helps us get this out to more people.
1:01:01
Thanks and go in peace.