Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Cami Sanders - Two LDS Women Discuss The Divine Feminine: Heavenly Mother, Women in Scripture & the Ongoing Restoration
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (00:28) Hey everybody, I have a new acquaintance with me. Tonight her name is Cammie Sanders and we have gotten to know each other through our hairstylist. And when your hairstylist says multiple times that you need to get to know somebody, you need to get to know that person because Melissa knows everybody in the world that comes into her chair and she hears all their stories. And she has told me multiple times that I need to get to know Cammie and talk to her. And I feel so honored to have her on tonight. How are you feeling about being here, Cammie? Cami Sanders (01:00) Great. Thank you so much, Bryn, for having me with you. And I'm just really excited to talk to you. Brynne Erickson (01:05) Yes, it's going to be so fun. We're to be talking about the divine feminine tonight. Cami has some insight and experience with this topic and I myself have learned a lot working with different mentors about how to embrace essentially my superpowers as a female and being able to use that to better my life. So I'm excited to get your take on it tonight. ⁓ where did all of this begin? What inspired your journey into this topic? Cami Sanders (01:44) Yeah, well, most of my exploration of this topic is from an LDS lens. And I am a mom of three. I have two girls. Now they're 21 and 22. But as they were, I have two girls and a boy. I don't want to forget him too. But now, mostly from the perspective of my girls, now that they are a little older, when they were about 10 or 11, I started to notice how ambitious they were and how excited they were about life and what they wanted, the careers they wanted. And it felt that the only place as they became teenagers that they felt limited or different about being girls was at church. And I started to see that church was always really easy for me, but seeing from their perspective, like, ⁓ there are maybe what could be seen as limitations there. And so I started thinking about that. And then I started thinking, but why are there limitations in Brynne Erickson (02:23) Hmm. interesting. Cami Sanders (02:41) Mormonism or the restored gospel because we have a really unique perspective in that we do have a heavenly mother and we have a different view of Eve that is pretty different from the rest of Christianity. And so I started to want to research that more and I looked around the world and thought, I think we need our mom. We really do need that part of us to understand that part, of ourselves and Brynne Erickson (03:03) Hmm. Cami Sanders (03:10) know, as humans, who our mother is and her relationship with her, with our Heavenly Father and with her son. So that's really kind of where it started and branched from there. Brynne Erickson (03:24) Interesting. I'm curious. Did your girls ever present anything to you? Like what would they say as 10 and 11 year olds? I'm very curious. Cami Sanders (03:35) Yeah, that. mean, my second daughter is very, she's now she's a political science graduate and wants to go into law and policy, but she wanted to be the president. she, yeah, that that sort of thing. But but then I used to hang up that came in the middle of the enzyme. I used to hang up the picture of like the apostles on the, you know, like the prophets and apostles up on the wall that the pull, the pull out of the enzyme and Brynne Erickson (03:42) Mmm. I love that. Mm-hmm. Cami Sanders (04:04) They said, like, why aren't there any girls there? Like, just things that I had never thought about. Or their cousins or their friends who were starting to get the priesthood and pass the sacrament. I think they wondered, oh, why is it different? I've always played with these boys. I've always done all the same things, gone to school with them. So it's just those small things that became bigger and bigger as they got older. Brynne Erickson (04:08) Okay. Hmm. Okay, yeah, I can see that. So then what did you turn to? Cami Sanders (04:34) Yeah, my first real search into this would have been shortly after this. research paper was published in BYU studies called A Mother There, and it compiles quotes from lots of different prophets and apostles about Heavenly Mother. And it refutes the myth that we are not supposed to talk about her because she's too sacred. Actually, we probably should talk about her all the time because she is sacred and such an important part of Brynne Erickson (05:02) Mmm. Cami Sanders (05:04) the Gospel. So that was kind of my first, almost permission, like, yeah, this myth that we shouldn't talk about her is not based on anything that a prophet has said, and it feels, doesn't feel right to me. So then I went from there and started reading the scriptures entirely differently. Brynne Erickson (05:09) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Interesting. How did your lens change as you were reading scriptures? Cami Sanders (05:28) I mean, it started from the very beginning, honestly. Genesis 1-2, where it says the Spirit, ⁓ the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Well, I started looking, there's a ⁓ site called Bible Hub, where you can see all the different translations, and then you can even see the original Hebrew and Greek, if it's available. And you can kind of compare different ways that that word has been used elsewhere in the scriptures and learn more about the Hebrew and Greek. Brynne Erickson (05:33) Yeah. Cami Sanders (05:58) origins. And that word spirit, the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, both in Hebrew and Greek, is a feminine noun. And the word Elohim is plural for gods. And that's probably pretty well known, but I think of course, our Heavenly Mother would be involved in designing and creating the home for her children. I think she was there from the very beginning. That was the first thing I noticed. Brynne Erickson (06:27) you Very cool. Where do you want to go from here? Cami Sanders (06:34) Well, I think we can move a couple of different scriptures that really elucidated the role of our Heavenly Mother and then what it means for us now. As you keep reading, I really do love linguistics and etymology. And I was reading a book seven or eight years ago, maybe, and it's called The Etymologicon. It's such a fun book. Yeah, I know. he has a website and things, but it's a really fun book. Brynne Erickson (06:55) That's a great word. Cami Sanders (07:01) It's written with a little bit of a tongue-in-cheek approach because otherwise it would be like reading a dictionary of like, here's this word, here's the origin. So just reading through that, and there was a phrase that really caught my attention and it said, women can't be virtuous. What? What does that mean? And that is because the word virtue, it's Latin, origin, means it's that which is proper to a man, the qualities of a man. Brynne Erickson (07:18) Hmm. Yeah. Cami Sanders (07:31) Well, how can, okay, I immediately went back to my scripture mastery of Proverbs 31 10, which I think is also associated with one of the young women values of who can find a virtuous woman for her price is far above rubies. Yeah, yeah. And so of course, in the footnotes, it says, you know, virtuous means, you know, chastity. And, but well, that doesn't really jive with what Brynne Erickson (07:33) Hmm. Carp of rubies. Hmm. Cami Sanders (08:00) This new understanding of the word tells me. And so I read the rest of the chapter. And ⁓ also the Hebrew for that, Ha'el, it means noble character. And the way that is used in other parts of the scripture, that virtue translation is capable, able, or valiant. And I can entirely see that in Proverbs 31. The woman that's described as far above rubies, ⁓ she bought Brynne Erickson (08:18) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cami Sanders (08:30) bought and sold land. It said that she had strength in her arms and her body. She makes things and sells them. She participates in the business of the gates of the city. She has wisdom and kindness when she speaks. Her husband and children praise her, those sorts of things. So, you know, it's maybe not, you know, that there's limitations to what a woman can or should be, but that who can find a virtuous woman her price is above rubies. Brynne Erickson (08:48) Hmm. Cami Sanders (09:00) She can develop that side of her too. She can be, you know, involved in the rest of the world and taking care of her family at home. I don't, I don't really see it as an either or. ⁓ and I like that there's sort of an inverse to that, that all of us need to develop both our masculine and feminine traits, to be whole, complete people. I think you could also say who can find a nurturing man, his price is above rubies. Brynne Erickson (09:15) Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Cami Sanders (09:27) So because he has worked to develop that side of him where he's able to care for people and understand people. So I just kind of see that to be a whole person like Jesus was who had both of those, all of those qualities, we need to develop both. Brynne Erickson (09:35) Yeah. Yeah, I once listened to a podcaster and she was talking about how she has a hard time with like motherhood is seen as this amazing role. And then she's like, but what about fatherhood? Like it's, it's like there, but we don't really talk about it. Like, yeah, there's father's day, but it just kind of like feels different. Like we love our dads, but they have such a different. role than mom's and she kind of had a problem with it and she didn't go into it super deep. I have kind of thought about that. Like what would it look like in a family if like both the mother and the father did pretty much the same things? Like what could that look like? And you, I like how you said you both have always worked, right? You and your husband. Yeah. Cami Sanders (10:41) Yeah, and at different times we've had more demanding careers and so we've kind of been flexible in that. And I mean, to be honest, my husband, the last few years as my son has been growing up, has spent a lot more time in the raising of him. ⁓ For the better of both of them. And I have, of course, been incredibly involved still, but it's just been great to see that relationship be so close and Brynne Erickson (10:45) Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Cami Sanders (11:09) And my husband always helped my girls with their hair when they needed it, when I wasn't around or helped them get their clothes. So it was never a very firm line between our roles and we just kind of picked up wherever it needed to happen. Brynne Erickson (11:14) Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting how he make rules on what it looks like. Like dads do this, moms do that. And I guess really the only ones that should be making those rules are within our own homes. Do you agree? Cami Sanders (11:42) Yeah. yeah, and I like that, Brynn, that you've brought up. Fatherhood's so important because I don't want to put false limitations on men of what they can be and do too. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (11:50) Yeah. Cool. Okay, where else do have for us? Cami Sanders (11:57) Well, and so if we continue kind of in the scriptures, I don't know how I made it all the way through my entire life going to church, going through seminary, institute, know, Sunday school, and then being in my mid thirties before I started realizing there are prophetesses in the Old Testament named specifically as prophetesses, at least Deborah and Miriam, you know, and there are apostles that are women as well. Junia is an apostle. Phoebe, Paul calls her a deacon or a minister in the church. There are a lot of women named and that's of course even Mary Magdalene who was the apostle to the apostles. She was the person that Jesus entrusted to tell his apostles that he was risen. so that she also has and I I just never knew this. There's also a gospel of Mary that was found in Egypt ⁓ in the Berlin Codex. So that's a fascinating read. mean, there's fragments. There's not as much there as you'd like, but it does give some insight in the relationship of the apostles and Mary, who was not just an in and out disciple. She was with him through his entire ministry almost. So it's really interesting to see those roles and what's possible. Brynne Erickson (13:01) Okay, cool. How did you find these resources? Because I too did not become aware that there were females in essentially priesthood roles anciently and I haven't delved into them myself. But where would one go to even find that information or read those books? Cami Sanders (13:26) Yeah. There are a lot of awesome resources. So I'm not really an originator of anything. I'm a curator of a whole bunch of information. Some of my favorite sources are Margaret Barker. She's written a book called The Mother of God. she also, she spoke at BYU. She's a Schempelian. Oh, I guess she'd be Anglican. But she, yeah, so she, yeah, a theologian. who has written a lot about these clues in the Bible that there are women there. then in the LDS tradition, there's a wealth of Mormon feminism, honestly. And I know feminism kind of has a negative term, but it's really just exploring the works of women and involving them too. And a couple of those are Laurel Hatch Ulrich, Brynne Erickson (14:32) Yeah. Cami Sanders (14:44) And ⁓ I have a whole list that I will send to you because I would love for other people to have access to this. Good. Yeah, Mandy Green is also a really great creator and she has done online classes that are available on Heavenly Mother and Mary Magdalene. So she really digs in to a lot of great information. Brynne Erickson (14:48) Cool. Yeah, I'll attach them in the show notes. OK, that'll be great. very cool. Anything else? Cami Sanders (15:09) I mean, another really fascinating resource is the Book of Mormon actually gives us a lot more than we think. Daniel Peterson, who is a biblical and Book of Mormon scholar at BYU, there's an article that you can, I think, just search for. It's called Nephi and his Asherah, and it discusses how... So Asherah was the name for the consort of God in the Old Testament, and... Oh, like wife. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (15:16) Hmm. What's a consort? ⁓ Cami Sanders (15:39) like the partner of God. Brynne Erickson (15:39) okay. Okay. Cami Sanders (15:43) he draws some symbolism between the tree of life and the love of God, not just the love that God gives, but who God loves. ⁓ there is a lot of symbolism in the Old Testament of the tree representing the divine feminine and again, the consort of God. there is, it's a very Brynne Erickson (15:53) Mm-hmm. Mm. Cami Sanders (16:09) It's very scholarly and a little bit dense, but there is a lot of great information there. It's a fascinating lens to look at the tree of life. I mean, that our mothers give us life and maybe our heavenly mother was involved in that vision too, to think that way. A lot of this, I mean, there are like scholars that study this more deeply. I'm approaching it more spiritually and what it's, how it becomes meaningful to me. So yeah, there's. Brynne Erickson (16:11) Yeah. Yeah. Cami Sanders (16:39) a lot more there than I think we realize. Brynne Erickson (16:42) How is this meaningful to you? Cami Sanders (16:44) Well, it tells me my place in the eternities, hopefully, that there's more than ⁓ maybe the limited role that may be prescribed currently. I mean, I think it's expanded, but I also see the limitations that we just don't know what we'll be doing in the eternities. We see Heavenly Father, we see Jesus and what they became and what they do, and we don't know what. what women will be doing, except that there is a lot to indicate that there are goddesses. I think we believe that there are goddesses and priestesses and prophetesses and queens, but we don't know much about them. So I think about what this means for us now and our current roles and how we structure our church. It's really interesting to me that in Joseph Smith history, when Moroni came to visit Joseph Smith. Brynne Erickson (17:18) Mm-hmm. Cami Sanders (17:38) The scripture that he chose to kind of kick off the revelation was Joel 2, 28. And in that scripture, it says, your sons and daughters will prophesy. And that's, it didn't just say sons, it didn't just say men, it said sons and daughters. And I think that there may be a continuing revelation, a continuing restoration that opens more. But there also, You know, I know when I think of the temple and I think of Eve, a few years ago when I was there thinking about all of this and realizing, oh, Eve, Adam, he was correct. These were the rules of the garden that they were not supposed to eat that fruit. And both Elder Oaks and Elder Packer have really good talks about the word transgression. Brynne Erickson (18:26) Mm-hmm. Yep. Cami Sanders (18:34) and that transgression is a rule or a policy that doesn't have a morality attached to it. It's sort of the temporary rules, like the speed limit. And the Latin for that is, ⁓ it means to go beyond, to step beyond. And so I think Eve, seeing once she did eat that fruit, which again, from a tree that could represent our mother, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, she Brynne Erickson (19:00) Hmm. Cami Sanders (19:04) She saw that they needed to progress humanity and she made a hard choice. She saw, you know, kind of what 2nd Nephi says, that there must be opposition in all things, that they had to feel pain and it was going to be hard, but there would be joy and progress and humanity would come from this. And so while Adam was correct, Eve saw a higher way. And I do think that Eve, the women of the church, the women of the world, and help us move beyond and progress. And it's into the unknown. We don't really know what that could look like because we haven't lived that before. But by doing that, they received further light and knowledge. And if we take that step of faith to move beyond the comfort of patriarchy, a very hierarchical, stratified, top-down structure, it's very rigid, uncomfortable because we've been doing it for so long. Brynne Erickson (19:54) Yes. Mm-hmm. Cami Sanders (20:02) For some people, it's comfortable. It's uncomfortable to think about not having it, I guess, for a lot of people. But if we move beyond that, there's further light and knowledge available. And so I really have a lot of hope that we can do that. And that's going to be a huge step at building Zion, because I don't know how we can be one if all really aren't alike unto God and that we aren't recognizing the gifts of half of the... Brynne Erickson (20:09) Yeah. Cami Sanders (20:31) the population of the world. Holy. Brynne Erickson (20:35) I love that so much and not even just half the population of the world, but the, that means like the men don't even understand like half of themselves too. And I just, I've learned a lot about just rules and how we as humans, it's funny, we don't like rules, but we actually do because it's easier to just be told what to do and then do it. Cami Sanders (20:48) You're tight. Brynne Erickson (21:06) And then when you try to do things your way and on your own, it's actually really hard to be like, well, what do I actually want to think? And what do I actually want to believe? And what would that look like for me? And this is really uncomfortable. And this is actually really hard. And I love that idea of this is an integral part in creating Zion. like truly working together on each other's strengths and complimenting each other. And no one is better or stronger than anyone else. And to me, that sounds amazing. Like I'm watching Downton Abbey right now. Have you ever watched Downton Abbey? Okay, so it's a period show for those who don't know it. It takes place in the early 1900s, Cami Sanders (21:52) Yes, yeah. Brynne Erickson (22:01) And one of the main characters can't inherit the estate because she's a woman. And she can't have a title, and she can't have money unless she's married. And I just have thought of, man, how women have always kind of been like the inferior and not as smart and not as worthy and not as capable. And I feel so blessed to live in an era where that is changing like so much, especially here in the United States of America. Sadly, a lot of the world still can't say the same, but that truly would be Zion, wouldn't it? If there was no, and anyone is any better or worse than anyone else. Cami Sanders (22:48) And it is so interesting because I don't think anyone, especially like not the men that I know and interact with, they're so, they're such good people. I don't think they've intentionally held women back at all. I don't think that they see that it does, it's a limitation to them too. I mean, because it's benevolent part patriarchy, right? It's, they're trying to be good people. And that often looks like, so my husband was the Bishop for the last five years. Brynne Erickson (23:10) Mm-hmm. Cami Sanders (23:17) was released recently. And it was kind of funny when when he was called after he was sustained. One of the older gentlemen, he came up to me and he said, I was a stake president and I used to have to help, you know, with the calling of bishops. And the way that we chose them is we we thought of the most spiritual, the most kind, the most organized person in the ward, and we called her husband. And The thing is, I'm none of those things. We have much, much better people in the ward. But it's sort of a thing that we say to kind of make women feel a little bit better. But it's actually not true. Men are, women aren't better than men and men aren't better than women. And another comment in Sunday school was similar to that, like, women don't need the priesthood because they are more spiritual and they're in tune more naturally. I don't think that's true. I think we all have different gifts. Brynne Erickson (23:52) huh. Right. Yeah. Cami Sanders (24:16) women and men do. And if it were true, if we went with their premise, then wouldn't that actually be the person that God would want to be his prophet and lead his church if there was, you know, if women were naturally more spiritual or yeah, more qualified to be his prophet? It's not. And in fact, if we look back through history, where there are a few societies like Anatolia, Turkey, Brynne Erickson (24:29) more qualified. Yeah, but I don't think that's the case. Cami Sanders (24:43) ancient societies where they were matrilocal. it was more like matrilineal, so the land was passed down from woman to woman. The men moved in with the women's family rather than vice versa. What they found, it wasn't matriarchal, patriarch, monarch ruling over, it was matrilocal. And what that looked like was, what they can tell from the archaeological evidence is they died of violence. Brynne Erickson (25:04) Yes. Cami Sanders (25:13) um, at a lower rate, the death of sickness is a lower rate, the houses were pretty similar in size. weren't, weren't a big, you know, there weren't like huge houses and small houses, which sort of indicates more equality. And what that tells me and what I see in the men around me is that those men were able, were willing to give up their physical dominance, their natural physical dominance to do what was best for the whole society. So it wasn't that women were better. It was that the men were willing to be better too. together. And I think that's a really interesting thing because I think what true power is, is having that power and not using it. That's what Jesus showed us, the most powerful being in the entire universe. What did he choose to do with that power? Lower himself below all of us and die for us and show us perfect love. And I think that is the model for how we can We can have power, but use it to make things better for everyone. Brynne Erickson (26:15) Yeah, I was just thinking like, it's not so much setting that power aside, but using it to lift and love rather than subdue and reign over. Right. Cami Sanders (26:24) Okay. Yes, yeah. Brynne Erickson (26:29) Hmm. have lots of thoughts. Like I can't even put them into one cohesive thought at the moment. Cami Sanders (26:38) I get that. I get so excited that I just start talking fast and I want to, you know, I just get so excited about all of this. So yeah, I told, I've thrown a lot at you. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (26:39) Ugh. Yeah, I actually was thinking the other day, like, what would it look like if there were women apostles on the stand at general conference? What would it be like if a woman really was a prophet? Like, I allow, I don't fear my thoughts anymore, and I approach them without judgment, because they're just thoughts. Like, who knows what could actually happen? ⁓ I don't know why it would be a problem if that ever happened. Cami Sanders (27:25) I don't know either. I don't know either, but there's there is some like, there's some cognitive like limitation for me. Like, it's hard for me to perceive that too. And I wonder if it's a little bit because when I think of Jesus telling his disciples that you can't put new wine into old bottles, and that it says bottles in the King James, but it's actually wine skins. And it's because the older wine skins are dried and brittle. Brynne Erickson (27:33) Yeah. Cami Sanders (27:53) And the new wine is still fermenting and expanding. And so it would just burst. It can't expand with it. Again, there's kind of that rigid hierarchical structure that I don't know if you can just plug women into it and say, okay, act like the men did. And that it would work. I think there's something even bigger that maybe we haven't thought about. And it may, it's a little bit maybe messy because we don't know what. Brynne Erickson (27:56) Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Cami Sanders (28:22) it will look like yet, but I like just thinking about the possibilities and not being afraid to think of it, but I don't know what it is. And I think we kind of have to, there's a Scottish preacher who I love, I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but he said that God doesn't hand his child something until he has a pocket to hold it. And I think all of us need to be, like all of us asking the question tells Heavenly Father that we're ready for the answer. And so the women of the church, know are asking these questions, at least a lot of them are who have seen this. And the women of the world are asking these questions. And so it's going to take more of us asking to know that we're ready. Yeah, but I don't know what it will look like. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (29:08) Mm. That kind of makes me just giddy that like, love how you worded it. It's not just taking the system that already exists and transplanting women into it. Like it would be creating something that doesn't exist yet, or at least a way of doing it that is different than what we're doing today. And I've never thought of that being possible. And yet I believe in an ongoing restoration. And people are like, we're not changing. And my mom reminds me all the time, she's like, Brynn, we're changing all the time. It just is, it happens either kind of incognito and it just happens naturally or slowly and with time. But when we take a step back and we look at where we've been to where we are now, like, yeah, we have changed a lot. And. Yeah. Being a part of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is just so interesting. And like when I got married, no beards was a big thing. And now like no one even said anything over the pulpit and maybe depending on ward to ward, it's a bigger deal or not, but it seems to be that, especially in my ward, it's not a big deal anymore. And I don't know necessarily what to make of that. ⁓ other than we truly are. people that are trying to run an organization. And I love, I do love that about it. But yeah. Cami Sanders (30:48) that it's us doing it. I love that too. Yeah. And I mean, the whole thing was started by asking, if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and abradeth not. And I also like that because wisdom is also a symbol of the divine feminine and heavenly mother in Proverbs in the wisdom books. it's wisdom personified and it's feminine throughout. Brynne Erickson (31:00) liberally. Cami Sanders (31:18) I ⁓ kind of like that to see that little part of it too. And if we think about changes, I mean, I went through the temple the first time in 1999. And of course, it was a few weeks before I was sealed to my husband. So in the temple at that time, there was a portion where women covenanted through their husbands and I wasn't married yet. So I turned to my mom who was my, who was helping me through it. And I said, what do I do? I'm not married yet. How do I covenant through my husband? And she said, Brynne Erickson (31:22) Ugh. Okay. Cami Sanders (31:49) just do what everyone else does, which is a whole other thing to unpack with religion. But then, but I thought about it more and more, and it always was a sticking point with me. But I kept praying about it. I want to have a direct relationship with my Heavenly Father. I love my husband and I trust him, but I don't want to have to go through him. And I would pray about it it, I... Brynne Erickson (31:52) Yeah, yes. Cami Sanders (32:15) Every time I would go to the temple, have this tiny part of my heart just held back a little. wasn't, it was kind of always stirring. So that went on for 20 years. In 2019, that changed, right? And I am so grateful that it changed, but I am also like how many women were having these feelings in the temple that they didn't want to have. didn't want to have that limitation or that hanging over them. But another big change is that Brynne Erickson (32:22) Mm-hmm. Cami Sanders (32:45) you know, we don't cover our faces with veils anymore. And that makes me think of DNC 110, where the veil was taken from our minds and the eyes of our understanding were opened. And I think for women, we know we can have that veil, not just metaphorically off of our face, but also off of our mind. We can start thinking a little bit bigger about how we can contribute to building Zion. And just it Brynne Erickson (32:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cami Sanders (33:15) me that the veil over the earth is beginning to burst. There's more light that can get through and more knowledge that can get through as we keep tearing away that veil. Brynne Erickson (33:28) and asking the questions, right? In faith and communing with Heavenly Father and looking for answers. And there are definitely a lot of people asking questions. And whether they stay and participate in the religion or not, there are a lot of questions being asked. And it's, I'm, I'm kind of here for the ride. Like I'm, Cami Sanders (33:31) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (33:57) And that's why this podcast is called middle ground, because I just found myself like, I don't really want to leave, but I'm also not the same person that I was. And if I have to be that person, then I can't be here. So I'm kind of navigating this new place within the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And it's been an interesting ride, but I really love it. And Yeah, organized religion is kind of weird. And how change happens. And I find it interesting that a lot of time we have to, it's like I said, sometimes change happens because the people change, but then change happens because leadership says it's time for change. Cami Sanders (34:29) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (34:51) And that one is interesting to me. And I hear people talk about like, well, it's not happening fast enough. And the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is always a decade behind when everyone else is doing it. And if we're really God's church, then we should be leading the way. Cami Sanders (35:07) feel that. do, I want to give, I want to give those men grace at the top, but also, I know, why aren't they asking these questions for us too, on our behalf, as prophets, seers, and revelators? So, yeah. Brynne Erickson (35:23) Yeah, I don't have an answer, but I just get the, get that all the time from people. I'm like, I don't, I don't know. I have thought though that it seems like after about 10 years, like more people are on board with like across generations than when it was like the hot topic. It may be a certain generation of people and age group of people were on board. And then by about 10 years, it seems like. the culture of humanity, or at least in the United States, has shifted. And so when they make that change, more people are like, yeah, like, sweet, finally, like, we're ready to do this, rather than it being in the height of it, and people are still navigating what to think about it and what to do with it. So I do trust in God. I do think that things happen when they're supposed to. Cami Sanders (35:59) Okay. Brynne Erickson (36:22) And we are here to experience opposition. So I trust in that. Cami Sanders (36:29) Yeah, I do feel like there was a groundswell around this seven, five years ago. it really was gaining a critical mass about Heavenly Mother. Yeah. And there was a general conference talk that told us we couldn't demand answers. And I didn't feel like anyone was demanding answers. I think that they were asking. And it did seem like that kind of a little bit chilled things. And a lot of those women that I was following their blogs or their Instagram, they kind of have, they have stepped away from the church because they aren't seeing that change. And I completely understand. And I, I don't know where I'll be, but like you said, I'm, I'm here for the riot. I'm glad I'm here now. I think it's the right place now. I don't know what it will look like in the future, but I'm grateful for it. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (37:07) Yeah. Yeah. Grateful, hopeful. It's an interesting place to be, but yeah, I know for me, understanding my feminine traits and rather than trying to, I guess, conform to masculinity more, like the hustle and grind and work till you drop and Cami Sanders (37:23) Thank you. Brynne Erickson (37:47) ignoring the nurturing of yourself. And that's been really helpful for me to like, ⁓ yeah, I am supposed to actually take care of myself and not just my people. And I need to allow my husband, like, how can I encourage him to take care of himself and make time for himself? And that's been really awesome for both of us. Cami Sanders (38:08) Mr. We should be the best both of the masculinity and the femininity, not like the worst of masculinity, like you described. Why should we have to be the worst of what men have? We can have the best of what both of us have. Brynne Erickson (38:18) Mm-hmm Yeah, I love that. Anything else you want to share? Cami Sanders (38:32) No, I, yeah, just thank you so much for letting me be here with you and kind of hearing your ideas. I really love that. Brynne Erickson (38:42) Yeah, I appreciate it. And I love that you were just an observant mother of your own kids and took notice of what they noticed. And rather than just giving them the short answer of, that's just the way it is. Like you stepped into curiosity yourself and you're like, huh, I wonder why that is the way it is. And exploring that with them. I think that's really cool. Cami Sanders (39:10) they taught me so much and they still do every day so I'm so glad I have them yeah. Brynne Erickson (39:16) That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Cami. This was beautiful. And I'm excited to dive into those, learning more about those women of scripture and history and learning a little bit more about our legacy. So thank you for your time. Cami Sanders (39:30) Thank you.