Latest / Sex Advice for Seniors Podcast / Why Are Younger Men Attracted to Older Women? | Andrea Feinberg

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Why Are Younger Men Attracted to Older Women? | Andrea Feinberg · Sex Advice for Seniors Podcast

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SPEAKER_00: Hi, this is Suzanne, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors.
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SPEAKER_00: One of my favorite topics,
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SPEAKER_00: and I know it's a favorite topic of my listeners,
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SPEAKER_00: is embarking on dating in later life.
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SPEAKER_00: Because embarking on dating at any age these days is, as my son puts it, pretty fucking brutal.
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's not much better for you when you're an older person, but you know what?
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SPEAKER_00: I've had all sorts of different experiences,
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SPEAKER_00: and so has my guest today,
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SPEAKER_00: Andrea Feinberg,
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SPEAKER_00: who's a business coach,
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SPEAKER_00: a marketing strategy,
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SPEAKER_00: and an author who at 72 turned her profound personal loss and divorce into
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SPEAKER_00: And we're going to really dig into this book,
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SPEAKER_00: which blends memoir, erotica, and life lessons.
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SPEAKER_00: To challenge some of those ageist myths that we've all got
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SPEAKER_00: about older women's sexuality and invite readers to share the joy
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SPEAKER_00: and reclaim their confidence and curiosity at any age.
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SPEAKER_00: So welcome, Andrea, to Sex Advice for Seniors.
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SPEAKER_00: It's great to have you on the show.
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SPEAKER_01: It's my pleasure.
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SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
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SPEAKER_00: So I gotta ask you,
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SPEAKER_00: I've talked to lots of people who have stepped into dating in their 50s,
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SPEAKER_00: in their 60s, But rarely in their 70s.
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SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm really curious to know how did those early experiences shape the tone
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SPEAKER_00: of your book?
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SPEAKER_01: My early experiences were very good and surprised the hell out of me because I look
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SPEAKER_01: a little younger than I am.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm 73 years.
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SPEAKER_01: And I assumed when I started going on dating apps,
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SPEAKER_01: which didn't exist the last time I was dating in the 20th century,
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SPEAKER_01: that, you know, perhaps I would attract men in their mid-50s to mid-60s.
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SPEAKER_01: But the first gentleman who approached me was 27.
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SPEAKER_01: And I thought, well, you're just nuts.
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SPEAKER_01: And I ignored him out of hand.
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SPEAKER_01: But then I was on a dating site that was specifically for people over the age of 50.
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SPEAKER_01: And along comes this very attractive, smoldering, good-looking guy who's 34.
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SPEAKER_01: And we started texting.
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SPEAKER_01: We had conversation.
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SPEAKER_01: And I felt like I'm talking to an adult.
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SPEAKER_01: He's interesting.
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SPEAKER_01: He's educated.
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SPEAKER_01: He's articulate.
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SPEAKER_01: He knows a lot about film and music, which I like.
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SPEAKER_01: And we started dating.
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SPEAKER_01: And it was a superb entree.
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SPEAKER_01: Into a renewed sexual life.
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SPEAKER_01: I thank him silently every day because he set a standard that was exquisite.
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SPEAKER_01: And since then, the oldest man I have dated and had any kind of engagement with was 59.
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SPEAKER_01: I have yet to meet a man my own age.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's not because I'm excluding anybody.
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SPEAKER_01: These are the kinds of invitations that come my way.
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SPEAKER_01: And certainly not everyone is appealing to me,
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SPEAKER_01: but I have had marvelous experiences with men,
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SPEAKER_01: obviously between the ages of 34 and 49, truly.
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SPEAKER_01: So it's been a completely unexpected pleasure
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SPEAKER_01: that mom never told me I could look forward
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SPEAKER_01: when I was collecting Social Security.
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SPEAKER_01: So And you know what?
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SPEAKER_00: This is exactly my experience as well.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm 65 and like you,
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SPEAKER_00: I call myself single-ish because I'm kind of just out there enjoying myself.
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SPEAKER_00: I travel a lot.
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SPEAKER_00: I meet people along the way.
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SPEAKER_00: And last year I was in Thailand.
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SPEAKER_00: And I was like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I was kind of up for a date and the only person I could find who seemed
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SPEAKER_00: to have any kind of like understanding of what I was looking for and
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SPEAKER_00: who was attractive and interesting was 39.
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: I honestly am not particularly interested in going out with guys in their 30s.
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SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you've got children,
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SPEAKER_00: but for me,
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SPEAKER_00: there's a bit of an icky factor about thinking about having sex with guys
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SPEAKER_00: that are kind of very similar in age to my own children.
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SPEAKER_00: So I kind of say they have to be 15 years older than my oldest son, who's 35, right?
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SPEAKER_00: So roughly 49, 50.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: But this 39-year-old guy was a blast,
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SPEAKER_00: you know, and we're still in touch and we had a great time and...
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SPEAKER_00: There's a woman that I interviewed who's very well known for going out
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SPEAKER_00: with younger men called Cindy Gallop, and she's kind of made it her thing.
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SPEAKER_00: She talks a lot about it.
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SPEAKER_00: But look,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm not really that astounded that younger guys want to go out with us,
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SPEAKER_00: if I'm honest,
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SPEAKER_00: because people like you and me,
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SPEAKER_00: I suspect,
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SPEAKER_00: are pretty straightforward when it comes to who we are and what we're about.
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SPEAKER_00: And younger guys just like that.
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SPEAKER_00: They like the fact that We're not looking for babies.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, we're just kind of up for having a good time.
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think that's part of it.
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SPEAKER_00: But why do you think it's so hard to meet age appropriate men?
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SPEAKER_01: I have to say, Suzanne, I'm not actively looking for age appropriate men.
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SPEAKER_01: To me, the men I've been dating are completely appropriate.
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SPEAKER_01: Age is not a factor.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not looking for marriage.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not looking for children.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not looking for financial support.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for someone with whom I can have a deep dive conversation,
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SPEAKER_01: enjoy his company,
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SPEAKER_01: find him I like having to sit up straight when I'm listening to someone else
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SPEAKER_01: who may be brighter than I am.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm smart.
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SPEAKER_01: I stayed in school all the way.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm an educated, articulate, accomplished woman.
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SPEAKER_01: I like to find the same in a man.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't care how old he is.
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SPEAKER_01: As I say, the men who have reached out to me are significantly younger.
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SPEAKER_01: In response to I asked every one of them.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, is this a mother thing?
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, I didn't get it initially.
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SPEAKER_01: I had no idea.
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SPEAKER_01: But I got really credible reasons, for example.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I want to hear these because it's a question I never really asked.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I have my book right here.
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SPEAKER_01: I will tell you.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh, I wanted to know.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, obviously, as you said, the first one is I'm not going to get pregnant.
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SPEAKER_01: We can just ignore that one.
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SPEAKER_00: It's self-evident.
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SPEAKER_00: Older women know what they want.
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SPEAKER_01: There's no game playing.
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SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of clarity and straightforward behavior from us.
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SPEAKER_01: Older women provide much more depth in conversation.
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SPEAKER_01: Now, I really can't speak to this.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't remember what I used to talk about when I was 35 or 40,
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SPEAKER_01: but it's interesting that this is something that a younger man craves,
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SPEAKER_01: good, deep conversation.
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SPEAKER_01: And for me, that's a foundational element.
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SPEAKER_01: Older women are completely confident.
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SPEAKER_01: And I know this one certainly is.
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SPEAKER_01: I know you certainly are.
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SPEAKER_01: And a lot of that comes from having navigated a lot of life's obstacles
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SPEAKER_01: and challenges and unexpected circumstances.
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SPEAKER_01: And here we are still standing and dating and having a good time.
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SPEAKER_01: So we must have figured out a lot.
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SPEAKER_01: Older women take care of themselves and look good.
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SPEAKER_01: Older women don't withhold sex as part of a game.
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SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite responses.
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SPEAKER_01: Older women are more open-minded than younger women.
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SPEAKER_01: Young men consider it a badge of honor to bed and please an older, experienced woman.
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SPEAKER_01: There's a sense of comfort with a mature woman.
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SPEAKER_01: What else do I have?
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SPEAKER_01: Oh.
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SPEAKER_01: This one was one of my favorites, and this is a direct quote.
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SPEAKER_01: It's possible that in some ways I am biased, and I truly mean it when I say this.
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SPEAKER_01: As beautiful and sexy as a younger woman can be,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't believe any woman truly begins to reach her sexiest years
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SPEAKER_01: until she turns 70.
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SPEAKER_01: How do you like that?
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SPEAKER_01: Older women are so much more fun, open-minded, not afraid to say...
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SPEAKER_01: Put it here or put it there.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's just wonderful.
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SPEAKER_01: And the reasons go on.
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SPEAKER_01: One of the lovely things is I like what older women can teach me about life.
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SPEAKER_01: These are really reflective things that these guys are thinking about as real advantages.
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SPEAKER_01: And they're completely credible in my mind.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'm not going to turn away.
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SPEAKER_01: These lovely individuals who see me as an opportunity for themselves to grow
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SPEAKER_01: and enjoy when obviously the same is happening for me.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all of those statements completely resonate with me.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, I suspect one of the things,
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SPEAKER_00: and it's,
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SPEAKER_00: listen, it's my thing, is that I've just spent a week in a naturist village, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Being completely naked for a week.
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SPEAKER_00: And obviously when you walk around naked,
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SPEAKER_00: you see lots of younger people,
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SPEAKER_00: older people, and you realize that nobody's body is totally perfect.
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SPEAKER_00: And it gives me a lot of confidence in those environments just to be able
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SPEAKER_00: to just be amongst other people and to realize.
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SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
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SPEAKER_00: initially when I thought about myself in relation to a younger man,
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SPEAKER_00: one of the things that concerned me was, is he looking at my body and going crazy?
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know,
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SPEAKER_00: her arms have got a bit of like loose skin or,
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SPEAKER_00: you know, she's got some stretch marks or things like that.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's my own insecurity, I'll admit.
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SPEAKER_00: Was that one of the things when you started going out dating these younger men that
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SPEAKER_00: that was something that preoccupied you or were you just like,
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SPEAKER_00: I am feeling good about this?
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SPEAKER_01: I am not a goddess.
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SPEAKER_01: So, no, I'm overweight.
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SPEAKER_01: I've got wrinkles in places I don't want to discuss.
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SPEAKER_01: And initially, yes, I would be concerned.
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SPEAKER_01: But I just don't find it anymore because Partially
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SPEAKER_01: because my own confidence has grown significantly off the charts,
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SPEAKER_01: but also because if I'm with a man who is attracted to me,
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SPEAKER_01: body and mind, he knows what he's getting.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean...
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SPEAKER_01: You can see what my body looks like.
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SPEAKER_01: I dress confidently, not necessarily comfortably.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm still wearing what I consider a younger woman's taste in clothing.
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SPEAKER_01: I can't figure out how I'm supposed to make myself look like an older woman.
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SPEAKER_01: I am who I am.
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SPEAKER_01: And I've been this way for decades already.
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SPEAKER_01: So,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't have that discomfort unless there was one gentleman with whom I had a couple
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SPEAKER_01: of dates,
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SPEAKER_01: didn't go beyond dinner, but it was clear to me he really took care of his body.
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SPEAKER_01: He was gorgeous.
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SPEAKER_01: Now, he was in his early 50s.
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SPEAKER_01: I knew he had severe back issues, had a number of surgeries, so he had his own damages.
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SPEAKER_01: And he was the one gentleman who I thought,
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SPEAKER_01: if it advances to a bedroom, I'm going to feel a little shy.
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SPEAKER_01: Because the distinction between the ways in which we had kept up appearance was quite different.
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SPEAKER_01: But it hasn't happened before that.
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SPEAKER_01: And I guess I'm fortunate that the gentlemen with whom I've gone to that level of
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SPEAKER_01: a relationship have already professed admiration and desire.
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SPEAKER_01: And that goes a long way,
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SPEAKER_00: dressed or undressed.
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SPEAKER_00: From my experience as well,
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SPEAKER_00: younger men are not shy about coming forward in how desirable they find older women,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: Whereas sometimes older men Lack that ability to just say,
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SPEAKER_00: wow, I just think you look great today.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, some kid wrote to me today on Nextdoor, and he just said to me, are you single?
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SPEAKER_00: And I just said no, just because I didn't want to engage with him.
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SPEAKER_00: And he said, wow, that's some lucky guy.
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SPEAKER_00: I just thought it was just sweet just to see that.
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SPEAKER_00: So you've written that this memoir is more than a memoir about sex.
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SPEAKER_00: What do you want women that are over 50 to take away from it with regard to desire,
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SPEAKER_00: agency, and their own self-worth?
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SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
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SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
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SPEAKER_01: This book is really about Personal transformation and reinvention and how to launch
14:24
SPEAKER_01: into one's senior years without the conventional norms that limit us.
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SPEAKER_01: That's my point, that anything is possible.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm 73.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm dating a lot.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm in college.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm taking college classes.
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SPEAKER_01: I've written the book.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm completely changing my business.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm still putting on mascara and eyeshadow and wearing three-inch heels.
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SPEAKER_01: That's my thing.
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SPEAKER_01: That may not be relevant for any other woman.
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SPEAKER_01: But the concept of being open to pursuing whatever it is you may have as a dream,
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SPEAKER_01: as an ambition, as a goal...
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SPEAKER_01: And what stops you is not at my age.
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SPEAKER_01: I want to obliterate that phrase forever.
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SPEAKER_01: And so in addition to being a memoir about how I transformed my life,
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SPEAKER_01: I literally have a 10-step process.
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SPEAKER_01: Requires no technological know-how, no financial investment.
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SPEAKER_01: It's really just 10 common sense steps that supported me when I had to because
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SPEAKER_01: of circumstance and And then wanted to make significant changes in my life.
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SPEAKER_00: I wrote a memoir back in the early 2000s that was an erotic memoir
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SPEAKER_00: about my own journey when I was in my 40s.
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SPEAKER_00: And I know that one of the things that happened as a result of going
15:52
SPEAKER_00: on probably quite a similar journey,
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SPEAKER_00: although some of my scenarios were very extreme and I got involved with sex clubs
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SPEAKER_00: and DDSM and all sorts of stuff was that it not only gave me a lot of confidence,
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SPEAKER_00: just personal confidence,
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SPEAKER_00: but it really helped me to understand men much more than I had before.
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SPEAKER_00: Was that a byproduct as well of your experience?
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm very active on FetLife.
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SPEAKER_01: It's a sex website.
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SPEAKER_01: It's Facebook for people who are looking for sex partners in whatever way that calls to them.
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SPEAKER_01: And I came across this at a time when I was coming out of a 20-year period
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SPEAKER_01: of complete abstinence.
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SPEAKER_01: So literally from one extreme to another.
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SPEAKER_01: And that period of abstinence while I was married did quite a number on my brain
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SPEAKER_01: and my sense of self as a desirable woman and As an attractive person,
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SPEAKER_01: it was a very demeaning thing.
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SPEAKER_01: And I came across this by accident.
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SPEAKER_01: A gentleman I was dating at the time wanted me to see that side of himself.
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SPEAKER_01: And I looked and I said, well, you're perfectly normal.
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SPEAKER_01: But I was fascinated by what this website exposed me to.
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SPEAKER_01: And it was really the opportunity to push apart whatever walls I have in my brain.
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SPEAKER_01: And for the first time, I started writing erotic stories.
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SPEAKER_01: I have about four dozen erotic stories that I've written,
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SPEAKER_01: and I'm pleased with the male responses that I get to those.
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SPEAKER_01: And I started posting photos of myself,
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SPEAKER_01: something I'd never done before, wearing a lot less than you see me wearing today.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's been a blast.
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SPEAKER_01: The positive response,
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SPEAKER_01: the validation,
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SPEAKER_01: the feedback I get has been so uplifting as to launch my self-confidence into
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SPEAKER_01: an arena I never thought I could go.
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SPEAKER_01: But it's been a huge boon to me to find that,
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SPEAKER_01: to explore there without any embarrassment,
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SPEAKER_01: any kind of negative response,
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SPEAKER_01: because it's a wild, wild west playground where just about anything goes.
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SPEAKER_01: And people are looking for partners who have,
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SPEAKER_01: in my 20th century experience,
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SPEAKER_01: are so wildly different from what I grew up believing was A normal kind
18:33
SPEAKER_01: of intimate relationship.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, happily for me, that has expanded exponentially.
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SPEAKER_01: And I feel really good about it.
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SPEAKER_01: I feel much more open-minded,
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SPEAKER_01: much more willing to say, yes,
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SPEAKER_01: I certainly know my limitations of when I want to say no,
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SPEAKER_01: or at least I have to think about this.
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SPEAKER_01: But certainly...
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SPEAKER_01: That had a huge impact on me.
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SPEAKER_01: And then the ease with which I started finding men who at the very least wanted
19:06
SPEAKER_01: to talk, wanted to get to know me.
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SPEAKER_01: And in some cases where an intimate relationship would begin,
19:14
SPEAKER_01: you know, sometimes they were of short duration.
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SPEAKER_01: I had one year long relationship with a man who was 49 when I was 71.
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SPEAKER_01: And
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SPEAKER_01: It was perfectly egalitarian in every conceivable way,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: except for the decade in which we had been born.
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SPEAKER_01: So it's been a marvelous experience.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And what I want to emphasize,
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SPEAKER_01: I don't assume that's what every woman my age is looking for,
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SPEAKER_01: but I was looking for significant change.
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SPEAKER_01: And I figured out how to get that which I sought to.
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SPEAKER_01: And it has benefited me and it has opened me up to more opportunities
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SPEAKER_01: and it's easier to make change now.
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SPEAKER_00: Definitely having been on and being on FetLife,
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SPEAKER_00: frankly, and the guy in Thailand was a FetLife guy.
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SPEAKER_00: So I've been on FetLife, I guess, for about 20 years or something on and off.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't use it so much anymore.
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SPEAKER_00: But one of the reasons probably that I don't use it so much anymore is around
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SPEAKER_00: the issue of safety.
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SPEAKER_00: I do find that on some of these websites which are more around kink
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SPEAKER_00: than just straightforward,
20:26
SPEAKER_00: like more traditional dating,
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SPEAKER_00: that there's people projecting their own fantasies and some
20:33
SPEAKER_00: of them are not terribly experienced.
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SPEAKER_00: And there is a risk with some of them,
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SPEAKER_00: especially if you don't and haven't had much experience in the kink scene,
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SPEAKER_00: That you might put yourself in danger, frankly.
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SPEAKER_00: But that's been my experience with that life is
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SPEAKER_00: that sometimes I read people's profiles and I think,
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SPEAKER_00: you know, okay, but I'm not going to do those things.
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SPEAKER_00: Or that's, I don't really understand where the consent is here.
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SPEAKER_00: You don't seem to really understand consent too much.
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SPEAKER_00: And how much does safety and understanding safety play a part in The experiences
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SPEAKER_00: that you have and how did you navigate that,
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SPEAKER_00: especially out of a 20-year-old,
21:15
SPEAKER_00: pretty much celibate from the sound of a relationship, that's a pretty big leap.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know how you approach safety and consent,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: if it was something that you learned or if it was something
21:26
SPEAKER_00: that you just inherently knew about.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: It was a pretty big leap.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: And I certainly didn't start dating through FetLife.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: That came nearly a year after I had begun dating through the traditional,
21:42
SPEAKER_01: as they are now, dating websites.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: But even there, there are frauds and bots and all kinds of ill-intentioned individuals.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: I have a pretty 20th century approach to this.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: First, I want to talk.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: And text gives that opportunity for a lot of risk-free conversation.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: And certainly I will look at someone's profile.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: And if there are things there that I know are way off limits for me, I'm not going to pursue.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: Someone for whom there are behaviors that are meaningful to him that are definitely no for me.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: There's going to be a very poor fit.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: I have not felt endangered by anyone.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: I only have initial meetings in a public place.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: No one comes to pick me up at my home.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: I meet someone in a diner or
22:40
SPEAKER_01: They don't get my address.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: I do not give my phone number before I get someone else's phone number.
22:47
SPEAKER_01: And the reason for that is because I quickly do a background search.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: I get a phone number and I do a background search,
22:53
SPEAKER_01: which will often either validate what the gentleman has told me or will lead
23:00
SPEAKER_01: to more questions.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: Because very often cell phone numbers are recycled.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: And so someone can give me a cell phone number that is legitimately his,
23:11
SPEAKER_01: but which he inherited from a prior owner a couple of years ago and the
23:17
SPEAKER_01: The search engine,
23:19
SPEAKER_01: literally what I'm using, may not be up to date with who currently owns this number.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: So I'm pretty circumspect about my safety.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: I am number one in my life and I'm totally responsible for my life.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: So I do take precautions to make sure that at the very least I'm going to feel safe
23:42
SPEAKER_01: and comfortable.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I'll sit down with someone because I'm really curious about someone
23:49
SPEAKER_01: who says he has a kink that is unusual,
23:54
SPEAKER_01: not something I'm going to partake in,
23:56
SPEAKER_01: but I'm curious about meeting the person who finds that a particular pleasure.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: But for the most part,
24:04
SPEAKER_01: I've had really good experiences with honest individuals.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they're immature.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: They're not at all for me.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes behavior just doesn't meet my level of good manners,
24:18
SPEAKER_01: which is a critical component for me as well.
24:22
SPEAKER_01: But I have not felt at risk at any time with anyone, I'm very fortunate to say.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
24:47
SPEAKER_00: sometimes people laugh at me when I say I do the stalky thing, the background tone.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: I just don't want to do that.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Other people might be okay with it, but I'm not.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of the things,
25:33
SPEAKER_00: certainly when you get into this world and you start writing about it,
25:36
SPEAKER_00: and I know it was something that That concerned me was,
25:40
SPEAKER_00: and I'm interested in how you filtered out and curated your stories
25:45
SPEAKER_00: because sometimes there were things I didn't want to share with people
25:49
SPEAKER_00: and there were things that were very private.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: And I had a world that I created and there were elements of that that I was like,
25:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to share this with the general public.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: And your book has some pretty eyebrow raising stories.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: How did you decide what you were going to keep in and what you were going to
26:09
SPEAKER_01: I never thought about it at all.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: I didn't intend to write a book initially.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: I was voice recording a lot of my thoughts and experiences because at 71,
26:21
SPEAKER_01: when I started to date and use dating sites,
26:25
SPEAKER_01: which didn't exist the last time I dated was 1997.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: I'd been married for 25 years with my husband.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: So I I was really recording my thoughts and responses and the kind of men I was meeting.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: And it started to come together as a series of stories that I wrote.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: I just felt I had something unusual to write about.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: As I said to you earlier,
26:54
SPEAKER_01: I never anticipated as a younger woman that when I was this age,
27:01
SPEAKER_01: I would be having more fun than I've ever had in my life.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Nobody told me that this is what you get to look forward to.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Part of the distinction for me is I have no children, I have no grandchildren.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: So that immediately puts my focus elsewhere than what is a more conventional path
27:23
SPEAKER_01: for many people.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: And I'm certainly not going to decry anyone's choices or life circumstances
27:31
SPEAKER_01: to each her own as long as it makes her happy.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: And I...
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Did not feel uncomfortable about revealing anything I did because I did it all with
27:44
SPEAKER_01: a sense of humor and a really positive attitude.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: I am not revealing beyond a small extent tragedy or discomfort or illness or bad feelings.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: My story is a pretty positive one.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: And that's really what I want to convey,
28:04
SPEAKER_01: that I stepped into a world that I didn't know was available to me.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: That no one ever told me, no social media, no marketing messaging, no product.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, right now my hero is Cher.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, Cher, an 82-year-old woman who's got a long-term boyfriend already.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: I think he's 39.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: And so that was, wow, I thought when I first saw that.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: But here I am.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: I want to tell you, my mother has read this book.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: My 97-year-old mom, who kept telling me, finish that book, finish that book.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: And she read it.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: She says, oh, you're going to make a lot
28:46
SPEAKER_00: of money.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I hope so.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: With these younger people,
28:49
SPEAKER_00: one of the aspects of these relationships with much younger people
28:53
SPEAKER_00: that Cindy Gallop brought up when I interviewed her was the fact
28:56
SPEAKER_00: that she didn't expect any of them to last for decades because she recognized that
29:01
SPEAKER_00: at some point,
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Some of these men in their 30s especially might want to go on to have children
29:06
SPEAKER_00: and families and that she recognized that she might continue to be friends
29:11
SPEAKER_00: with them,
29:11
SPEAKER_00: but at some point the intimate aspect of their relationship might end simply
29:16
SPEAKER_00: because they were at very different life stages.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: And that it was clear to her that,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: and clear to me from speaking to her,
29:25
SPEAKER_00: that she wasn't What's your expectation or do you have an expectation
29:28
SPEAKER_00: with these younger men?
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll answer that two ways.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: One is,
29:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't care how similar an age couples are, 50% of marriages end in divorce.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't have to be disparity in age that pulls people apart.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: But the second part of that for me is I went through a stage of about a year and
30:08
SPEAKER_01: a half of just personal exploration, having fun.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Shocked that all the equipment and
30:16
SPEAKER_01: the emotional desire was still completely functioning,
30:20
SPEAKER_01: enthusiastically so,
30:23
SPEAKER_01: but I realized
30:24
SPEAKER_00: about five or six months ago that I'm really looking
30:26
SPEAKER_00: for something now.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: That has fun as a large component, but is housed within a deeper committed relationship.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: So I'm looking for something more serious now.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: And so the range I'm looking at are gentlemen in their, you know, late 50s and 60s.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: And that's really where I am at this point.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: And it seems fine for me.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: You know,
30:52
SPEAKER_01: I may be the older part of a partnership,
30:55
SPEAKER_01: but But it's really likely I'm going to be around and healthy for
30:59
SPEAKER_01: at least another 30 years because I'm looking at my 97-year-old mom who does
31:05
SPEAKER_01: the New York Times crossword puzzle in ink.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, I've just been away with a couple.
31:10
SPEAKER_00: She's 70, he's 54.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: They've been together 17 years.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: So large age gap relationships,
31:16
SPEAKER_00: I think,
31:17
SPEAKER_00: are all about what the couple themselves,
31:19
SPEAKER_00: how they communicate,
31:21
SPEAKER_00: shared interests, all the usual stuff that goes into what makes a good relationship.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: But I do think that when the gap becomes very significant,
31:29
SPEAKER_00: although Madonna and Cher seem to be the exception that proves the rule,
31:32
SPEAKER_00: there is the view that they might be more short-lived than other But I agree.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've got very healthy parents in their late 80s.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: My dad's going to be 90.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: My uncle's 95.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: You know, we come from, we've got good genes, right?
31:48
SPEAKER_00: So there's no reason, you know, why we're not going to be around for the next 20 years.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: And certainly if we think about it that way and we think about the energy
31:57
SPEAKER_00: that we've got,
31:58
SPEAKER_00: then there's no reason why You know, we can't be with a much younger man.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that struck me about all of this is you and I are kind
32:08
SPEAKER_00: of trailblazers in this space.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: There's very few people like us talking about aging and sex and intimacy
32:15
SPEAKER_00: in later life with this level of frankness.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: And even Cher and Madonna,
32:20
SPEAKER_00: as much as I love them both, they never talk about their actual sex life.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: So you see them with a lovely young person,
32:27
SPEAKER_00: but we don't really know what's going on behind the scenes.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Are they swinging from the chandeliers?
32:33
SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
32:35
SPEAKER_00: I do too.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious to know, where do you think your book fits into that larger cultural landscape?
32:42
SPEAKER_01: I think I'm part of the largest American cohort that's ever been.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm a baby boomer.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: And the baby boomer is,
32:53
SPEAKER_01: as I said,
32:53
SPEAKER_01: we are the largest component of the American population, which is where I am.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: And there will be,
33:00
SPEAKER_01: until we start dying off,
33:02
SPEAKER_01: considerable attention and product and services designed to continue
33:09
SPEAKER_01: to pry those bucks from our wallets.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: Very good point, yeah.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many other women or gentlemen are pursuing this kind of conversation.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: It was not something I anticipated.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: I've been a business coach and a marketing pro for decades,
33:27
SPEAKER_01: and I've completely shifted gears into, yes,
33:32
SPEAKER_01: writing erotic stories,
33:34
SPEAKER_01: but on a larger level,
33:35
SPEAKER_01: talking about Being free,
33:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:39
SPEAKER_01: as was it Marlo Thomas,
33:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:41
SPEAKER_01: be free to be you and me,
33:43
SPEAKER_01: to be whoever I would like to be within the realm of true possibility.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: And that realm is only bounded by my...
33:55
SPEAKER_01: Skill set, my brain, my body, my finances.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: It's all about me, what I'm capable of desiring and pursuing.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: And I would like other women to recognize that social norms are not one of
34:11
SPEAKER_01: the components to make that decision for us.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: That, you know,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: certainly we all have to honor the way we I want them to realize
34:20
SPEAKER_01: that what's next is only determined by what you let this do.
34:42
SPEAKER_01: And it's a phenomenal resource to have a brain that says, this is what I want next.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Let me ask ChatGPT how I go about doing it.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Because what a remarkable resource.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: Let me talk to my friends.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Let me look at the research.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: Let me see who else is talking about this.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: If someone feels they need some kind of social support to say, Yes, it's okay.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: I can go ahead and do this.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: I personally never ask those questions.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: I've been a business owner.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: I haven't had a paycheck since 1988.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: So I am accustomed to taking care of myself, to being independent.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of that I learned from my years on Wall Street, which was a long time ago.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: To be independent, to think, to make quick decisions, to be dominant.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: Not domineering, but dominant.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: And I'm very fortunate that I come from a family where that was encouraged.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: My mother was a single parent because my dad was struck with polio, completely paralyzed.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: When I was a toddler and my sister was an infant, my aunt...
36:00
SPEAKER_01: Was deserted by her husband when she was pregnant.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: So here I am surrounded by female-led households in the mid-50s.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I grew up with.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: These were my role models.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: So for me, this came all easily and naturally.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: But it's not the same for every woman.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: And I want her to recognize that she has the skills, the experience...
36:25
SPEAKER_01: The resources available to pursue what she may want, even if it's not pickleball.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: You make so many great points there, Andrea.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: I think so much of it is about our upbringing and the confidence that was instilled
36:38
SPEAKER_00: in us by our families.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm assuming you're Jewish.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: So am I.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: And there is a sense in that culture of Not being ashamed about sex,
36:50
SPEAKER_00: talking about sex, being sexual.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: So certainly I know that for me, I wasn't brought up with any shame around sex.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: And even though in a similar way,
37:00
SPEAKER_00: I had a fairly sexless last few years of my marriage,
37:03
SPEAKER_00: I didn't feel going into the world of dating and kink and everything
37:09
SPEAKER_00: that I had somebody sitting on my shoulder telling me I was a bad person for doing
37:14
SPEAKER_00: that.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: I felt like Okay, let's just check out what this stuff is all about.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, degree of curiosity.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: Similarly,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: being a self-employed person or a company owner gives you a certain type
37:27
SPEAKER_00: of resilience and a certain degree of curiosity that's kind of baked into...
37:33
SPEAKER_00: Not being told by a boss all the time what to do and having to make decisions for yourself.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: So I think we take a lot of this stuff for granted,
37:40
SPEAKER_00: a lot of privilege that we've had that gives us the confidence often to go
37:45
SPEAKER_00: into these sort of circumstances or different types of experience without.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: Possibly less fear than other women, for example, might feel at doing this.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: You know,
37:57
SPEAKER_00: I suppose when I started Sex Advice for Seniors,
38:00
SPEAKER_00: I didn't recognize that there were people out there really struggling,
38:03
SPEAKER_00: for instance,
38:04
SPEAKER_00: with their vaginal health,
38:06
SPEAKER_00: for example,
38:08
SPEAKER_00: or just struggling with A massive lack of confidence around their bodies.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: And so I do think that it's possible for anyone who wants to do this to do this
38:18
SPEAKER_00: because you're a great example.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: And I've certainly seen this as well.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: But I also think we have to recognize that for a lot of people,
38:27
SPEAKER_00: probably this discussion is so beyond what anybody would be like.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: Who are these women?
38:35
SPEAKER_01: Talking about snacks.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: So I want to know what is next for you now?
38:39
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned that you're looking for something a little bit more serious.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: Are you writing another book?
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Have you got some new projects?
38:45
SPEAKER_00: What's the next thing you're doing?
38:47
SPEAKER_01: A couple of things.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm percolating all the time.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: And this book is really in its infancy.
38:55
SPEAKER_01: It was just launched in August.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm having a new website built.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: I've built a new lead magnet.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: You know that term.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: It's a giveaway for those who don't know.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: I've just produced, with the help of a wonderful virtual assistant, a new newsletter for it.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: I've got two Substack accounts that I'm pursuing.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: So all of this mass energy to promote a completely new direction for me
39:27
SPEAKER_01: beyond business coaching and search engine optimization and blogging,
39:32
SPEAKER_01: which is what I used to do.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: I have a couple of ideas for a next book.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: The one that I mentioned to my mother,
39:41
SPEAKER_01: my mother and three of her friends until very recently were bridge players.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: Every one of them, and they're all in their 90s, one of them may be over 100, very interesting.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: Educated, sophisticated women, each in a different way.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking about writing a book called The Bridge Club about these four women
40:05
SPEAKER_01: whose lives are not what we typically think of when we think of women who are
40:13
SPEAKER_01: in their 90s and beyond.
40:15
SPEAKER_01: Because when they were young women,
40:18
SPEAKER_01: it was even more difficult for them to To achieve in unusual professions than it is
40:23
SPEAKER_01: for us.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: God damn it.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, we should be way ahead.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: Some of us,
40:27
SPEAKER_01: thank God,
40:28
SPEAKER_01: you know, have the confidence and the resources and the support to get it done.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Some of us need more support and even just recognition that it can be done.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: That's really my focus right now.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: The recognition that it can be done and whatever support and resources you're looking for.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: I'll point you in the right direction.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: If it's not me, myself,
40:53
SPEAKER_01: there are so many others like yourself,
40:54
SPEAKER_01: Suzanne, who are there to talk about older women and We just keep growing.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Our lives don't get smaller because we're older.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: They get bigger because we know more,
41:07
SPEAKER_01: we see more,
41:08
SPEAKER_01: we think more, we have more attitude, more experience, more money, let's hope.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, why not continue to be more until we just drop in the saddle for the
41:19
SPEAKER_00: last time?
41:20
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't agree with you more.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: And my parents are also bridge players.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's actually scientific evidence
41:26
SPEAKER_00: that playing bridge actually keeps your brain active.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: And reduces the risk of things like dementia because it requires quite a lot of thinking.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: My parents have been trying to teach me and suggest to me that I might like
41:41
SPEAKER_00: to learn bridge mainly because apparently there's some older,
41:45
SPEAKER_00: wealthier men that play bridge and my parents think,
41:49
SPEAKER_00: But that is a very good place to possibly meet somebody who might not be
41:55
SPEAKER_00: a fly-by-night kind of guy like the usual ones that I go out with,
41:59
SPEAKER_00: but might be somebody who actually has the means to be able to like Travel with me
42:06
SPEAKER_00: and stay in nice places.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: But so far, I've resisted the temptation to learn bridge.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
42:12
SPEAKER_00: Never say never.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: That's what I always say.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: Never say never.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: So it's been such a delight to talk to you.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: I wish you all the luck in the world with your book, Sex, Sensuality, and the Senior Woman.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: We will, of course, be A good motto.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Suzanne.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: It's been a real pleasure chatting with you.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: If you're enjoying this conversation,
43:00
SPEAKER_00: you'll find more stories, resources and advice waiting for you.