Latest / Cry It Out Loud: Navigating Infertility, Miscarriage, Stillbirth, Infant Loss & Pregnancy After Loss / Sad Dads Club: A Father’s Grief After Stillbirth, Marriage, Mental Health & Losing a Baby

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Sad Dads Club: A Father’s Grief After Stillbirth, Marriage, Mental Health & Losing a Baby · Cry It Out Loud: Navigating Infertility, Miscarriage, Stillbirth, Infant Loss & Pregnancy After Loss

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Crying Out Loud, a podcast by Chasing the Rainbows with your
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host Bernice Quisenberry. Today's conversation is one that
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is long overdue. When a baby dies, the focus
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often understandably turns to the mother.
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But what about the father? The dads who are grieving too?
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The dads trying to stay strong while silently falling apart.
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The dads holding their partners through unimaginable heartbreak
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while navigating their own. The dads who often feel
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forgotten in a world that doesn't always know how to hold
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space for male grief. At Chase and the rainbows, we
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know grief impacts the entire family.
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And while we provide free daily support for mothers and families
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navigating infertility, any type of pregnancy and infant loss and
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pregnancy after loss, who we also deeply believe fathers
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deserve space built specifically for them.
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And that's why we are proud to collaborate with Sad Dad's Club,
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an extraordinary organization providing support, community and
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connection for grieving fathers all around the world.
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Today we're joined by Rob Reader who is the Co founder and
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executive director of at Dad's Club.
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Rob's story begins with profound heartbreak.
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In December of 2017, Rob and his wife experienced every parent's
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worst nightmare when they're first born.
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Daughter Lila was stillborn and just months after or sorry, no
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months before, 1 of Robbie's closest friends had also
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experienced A stillbirth, something that, you know, barely
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was understood at that time. And through that pain, something
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extraordinary was born. What began as conversations
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between grieving dads became Sad Dads Club, now a global virtual
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community supporting thousands of fathers grieving from
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miscarriage, stillbirth, infant loss, and child loss while
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helping to find what it means to grieve as a man.
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Rob, thank you for being here and for helping Createspace for
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fathers who so often feel invisible in grief.
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Bernice, thank you so, so much for always being so incredibly
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and profoundly supportive of Sad Dad's Club and for inviting me
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to chat a bit about what it is we do so that hopefully more
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dads out there who need us can find us.
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Absolutely. And this just means the world
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and for, you know, our partners who at one point or another, I
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felt helpless with and what I could do for him.
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And so just having the dad's perspective and to have a
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community where he can turn and others can turn is tremendous.
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And I can't say that enough. Absolutely every parent who goes
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through a loss like this needs support.
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And yeah, it can be collective, but it also at times has to be
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individualized because as human beings, I think we all grieve
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differently. And so we're going to get more
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into it. But yeah, everybody deserves
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relief and it should not come at a cost.
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That's right. That is right.
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Yeah, Rob. So I would love for you to tell
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the listeners, you know, about your love story and you know
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what It was, you know, becoming parents and everything.
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Sure. So my wife and I, Tahila, have
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been married since 2013, and we did go to our undergrad.
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We went to college together at Boden College, though we were
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never romantic during our time there.
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She was one year behind me. She had a boyfriend the whole
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time. I'm a gentleman.
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There was no way that I was going to try and disrupt that.
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I'm a gentleman. But I always thought that she
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was beautiful, that she was so fun and funny.
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And as fate would have it, after we both graduated from Boden, I
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was in a I was a professional musician in a touring rock band.
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We did not get that far, but we did a lot of cool stuff and
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during that time I was travelling a lot.
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That is where Tehila and I reconnected and we were both
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just smitten with one another and we were both in a position
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where we did not have any existing committed
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relationships. So that was where our love story
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kicked off January of 2010 and we haven't looked back since.
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One of the earliest things that she and I connected on or or
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maybe not one of the earliest, but certainly early on, we both
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had a strong desire to be parents.
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So we knew through our relationship, the more serious
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it was getting it as it definitely was leaning towards
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and heading towards marriage, that having a family is
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something we both deeply wanted. And we both also individually
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from a young age knew that we wanted.
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She always knew she wanted to be a mother.
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I always do. From the moment I remember
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understanding the dynamic of my father and me between my father
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and me, I thought, oh, so I can be a dad one day.
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That's awesome. Awesome.
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That sounds incredible. That's the only thing I would
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say that up to through adulthood that I've been certain of, that
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I've wanted to be or do was be a father, have, have a family,
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have children. Wow.
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Oh, my goodness. That's so beautiful.
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And so when you guys got married in 2013 and what did?
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Yeah. So what did it look like when
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you guys were trying to create a family?
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So we spent a few years just being happily married and
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traveling and kind of flying by the seat of our pants.
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But then when it came time to when when we decided that it
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that it made sense for us to try and have a family.
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It was actually when we moved out of Boston, where we had
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lived for five years. And we came back to Maine, which
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is again, where we had met as undergrad students at Bowdoin
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College, and we always knew we wanted to also end up back in
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May. We just fell in love with it
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during our time there as students.
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And when we came back to Maine, that was when it made more
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sense. We had a house at that time.
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Friends of ours were also starting their families.
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We were in our early 30s, and that was when we started trying.
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And as it goes for many families, you start to try and
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it just isn't happening as quickly as you would like, want
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or expect it to. So we went through the process
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of figuring out is there anything wrong?
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Is there anything we need to have addressed, adjusted,
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whatever it is to help our chances because it just wasn't
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happening for us. And I wish I had a better
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recollection of exactly what the outpatient procedure that my
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wife endured was. But I remember the doctor
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referring to it as a quote UN quote reset.
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And then there was some ovulation assistance medication
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that came into play. But after both those things, we
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were able to get pregnant with Lila.
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I'd actually mentioned being a professional musician in a
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touring rock band. I say that so like as as not
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egotistical as I possibly can. It was just friends of mine and
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I who hopped in the van and we had an opportunity after getting
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signed to a major label for a few years to make a go of it.
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But that band of mine, we, we stopped touring in 2010, but in
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2017 we got back together and did a reunion show.
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So I remember it was shortly after that that my wife and I
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were able to conceive. I think that rock'n'roll energy
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really gave me like increased, you know, machismo or whatever
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it was. I mean, maybe, maybe the
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medication and the procedure weren't as or were just as
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important as stepping back onto the rock'n'roll stage.
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But I add in that little detail only because I remember it.
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Not because I add any sort of seriousness to what that
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contributed to the conception, but that in early 2017 we found
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out we were pregnant and as and as soon as we could, we wanted
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to know the gender just for our own curiosity, not being able to
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wait. Oh, my goodness.
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Yeah. And so on your journey, you
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went. How amazing is that, right?
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You're newly married, so in love, excited for your first
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born. Everything that you've hoped for
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just resigned, you know, or getting back out there touring.
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So it sounds like everything you wanted, like all of your dreams,
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are starting to come true. I had a job I loved.
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I had a great manager at the time at that job.
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I, I was living in Maine, which was a dream of ours.
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And now we were fulfilling another dream, which was
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expanding our family. And when we found out it was a
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little girl, I was so I would have been thrilled.
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No matter what it's, it's a thrill unto itself.
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And I, I never strongly had any preference for do I want a boy?
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Do I want a girl? I just wanted a family and I
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wanted a healthy, happy baby. And so as we're pursuing the
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pregnancy journey, everything was moving along completely
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normally. Everything was measuring
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properly, growing properly, Everything was just as you would
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want it to be, exactly by the textbook of what is a healthy
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pregnancy. Yeah, wow.
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So, yeah. So she was growing.
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You guys were just so excited to welcome her, getting your house
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ready. I mean, you made some big, major
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life changes, too. At that time.
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You moved, you know, from being in Boston back to Maine and all
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of those things. So of course, you know, and
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around your families and all of that too.
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Yeah, it was, it was a lot of big change, but it felt like a
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lot of things were lining up exactly as we hoped.
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And, and we felt very incredibly lucky.
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We were, we were fulfilling so many dreams and we had, it felt
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a bit surreal when I reflect on it, to think about how was I
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feeling during that time, which is sometimes hard to access,
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having gone through the inevitable loss of being like,
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well, what did I feel like? What was life like back then
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when things felt certainly a lot easier, a bit more carefree.
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And yeah, we, we continued on with the pregnancy and months.
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We're going by and we're getting the house ready, we're getting
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the car seat installed. All the things you do to
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prepare, that gets you equal parts.
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No, I shouldn't say equal parts. It gets you a little nervous,
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but far more so, excitement is the overwhelming emotion that
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you have surrounding that anticipated arrival of your
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child. Yes, absolutely.
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So you know from that, you know, getting your nursery ready,
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getting the car seats in all of it, you know what led to Lila's
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birth then? It was a Wednesday.
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It was December 13th, 2017. And I remember the day so
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vividly. There was snow already on the
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ground, which is not a typical for Maine, but a little bit on
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the early side. And it was just one of these
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brilliantly bright days where the sun is completely
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uninhibited and bouncing off of the snow to make it just this
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blinding light. And we had the very first
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appointment in the morning and this was a 38 week appointment
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on December 13th, 2017. And it was, we were just
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scrambling to get out of the house.
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We had some sort of, you know, snip with one another about
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whether or not we had to put the trash or recycling out and we
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were running like a little bit behind.
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And I'm an obsessive, like punctual person, so I can be a
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little bit of a nuisance when it comes to even the the threat of
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being late to anything. And I just remember it being so
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it was, it was tense only for that reason, but because the
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morning was so flustered and everything was so not rushed,
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but every, everything was yeah, we, we there was no, there was
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no moment where I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm in a ton of pain.
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Oh my gosh, I'm bleeding. My water broke.
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There was nothing like that. We just carried on with, again,
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something as trivial as should the recycling or the trash be
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put out before our appointment or are we going to miss getting
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the curbside pickup? Anyway, I'm focusing on
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something that is so not important about the story, but
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we get to Yeah, the day was just carrying on as any day.
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And we were going in for the 38 week appointment.
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And when we got there, we waited in the waiting room and then we
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were seen by the, I forget exactly who saw us.
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And I, I feel a little bad about that.
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And I always quote myself say that I should really look it up.
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But when we were brought into the back, they pulled out the
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Doppler wand and I was sitting there and my wife was on the
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table and her belly was exposed. And I knew how much time should
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pass when you hear static versus when they pick up the heartbeat.
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And it was just one of those audible again Doppler wands.
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So you're just waiting. You hear the like.
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When enough time had passed, I sort of straightened my posture
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and like, heart sank a bit and started to think, like, why have
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we not heard the heartbeat yet? And the deck goes and it's like,
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you know what, Like, let me just go make sure the ultrasound
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machine is ready. Let's just do an ultrasound.
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That'll be easier. And my wife looked at me.
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We were both concerned. And she kind of used her hands
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to feel around and said, oh, you know, I, I, I can feel her move.
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I, I can feel her in there, which I think both of us
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probably knew might not be exactly true.
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But when we were brought back in to have a proper ultrasound,
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they confirmed what was every parent's worst nightmare, which
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had 38 weeks, that there was no heartbeat.
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And they didn't say there's no heartbeat.
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I just, I remember my wife was laying down on the while getting
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the scan done and the technician and the doctor just looked at
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each other and shook their head. And the doctor took my wife's
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hand. And that was when we knew that
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there was no heartbeat. And I could, you know, see on
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the monitor, we could hear that there was nothing.
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And that was when they confirmed just the absolute worst outcome
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that, that anybody could anticipate or not anticipate.
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It was then when the floor vanished.
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It was then when the nightmare of the preceding moments began.
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And I just remember putting my hands over my face and being
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like, I don't want to move my hands.
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Like I just, I want to keep them here.
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I don't want to, I want to hide from what is going on.
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Like literally, figuratively, actually every.
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I just there was no place I would have rather not been.
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And that's only to say there was no situation I would have rather
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not been in. And you know, my wife's like
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crying and screaming and I don't remember how we even or what
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door we went out of to leave the office.
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I just, I have no recollection because they, they gave us
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instructions saying we're going to call the hospital for you.
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They'll expect you, you have to go home, you have to pack a bag.
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You got to get ready to be at the hospital for a few days and
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they'll be waiting for you when you get there.
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And everything around the commutes of from the time it
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happened, I just don't remember. Which honestly makes me think
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that for these types of things, they should have some sort of,
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not that anybody would want to be with anyone else, but from a
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safety standpoint, I wonder if people should have some sort of
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ride service figured out for families who go through this so
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that they're not operating a vehicle on the road when they're
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trying to make sense of something that is so
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disorienting. Yes, absolutely, Rob.
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Well, in those moments, you know, you're, you're expecting
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that this is going to be the probably the final appointment
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or close to and getting ready to go and and you know, find out if
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she's like dilated yet or anything like that, right.
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And you're the baby heartbeat. And then when this news hits,
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the trauma of it, especially there's no warning.
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It's out of nowhere and it's like you're having an outer body
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experience. Like how is this happening to
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us? Like how this like cannot be
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like, what are you saying to us? Like we just felt her kick
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yesterday, You know, we just felt her move.
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All of those things. Like it's and it's so true.
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Like anything after that, like all the trivial things like
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driving, like going home, like all of that.
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Like how do you remember that? Because like your mind is just
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not with it. You know, it's spiraling.
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You're having all these overwhelming moments and just
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hear your wife scream and cry. Yeah, I had AI had a dream the
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night before that my arms and I usually I forget a lot of my
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dreams, but there have been dreams where Lila has appeared.
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There been three in my life so far and that the first one was
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that night where I had my arms in like a cradling position and
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there was this floating newborn that I couldn't get to rest into
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my arms. Like I kept trying to adjust my
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arms to move into a position where she would actually be
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cradled and she was just floating, like just out of
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reach. And no matter how I adjusted my
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body or my arms, there was no way for me to get her into my
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arms. And that I feel like I've shared
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this story a few times with people.
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I do feel like that's the moment where she died.
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That's just what I think. And again, to to have dreams
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that are so constantly fleeting. Like I don't remember a lot of
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my dreams shortly after waking up, but that one and the two
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subsequent in the years after are ones that are so vivid that
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I can still remember every detail of which I'm super
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grateful for. Absolutely.
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It's like you get to meet her in your dreams.
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Oh, it's so heart wrenching. It is.
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I mean, yeah, they wreck like that.
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That one, I was like, oh, weird, 'cause I didn't know.
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But in reflecting, I, I put together that that was probably
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the moment that she died. But then in the two subsequent
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where she appears, the age that she would have been those I've
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like woken up from just so I can't, I can barely move.
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They're so awesome because they're an ability.
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They, they're an opportunity to reconnect with her, to see her
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and who she would be at this age.
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But they're so emotionally exhausting.
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Like I've never experienced dreams that are so upsetting but
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also like I'm like give me more of those.
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Like I do, I want them even though the the physical and
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emotional toll when I wake up is is heavy.
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Yeah, 'cause it is. It's that connection to them and
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to see them and to have that time that we don't get with them
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here and to have that, you know, is so just meaningful.
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But also like that heart, gut wrenching feeling and just it
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does like physically, mentally, emotionally just takes so much
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out of us. Yeah, it sure does.
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Thank you for sharing that. You know, it's so in those
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moments then you know, when you know you're going home, you're
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scrambling, you're getting everything together to go to the
18:30
hospital. It's.
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Yeah, it's it's chaos. Yes.
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It's it was nuts packing up to like, what do we need?
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How could we even think about what we ourselves need when we
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have lost the very thing that we need?
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And how long are we going to be there and what decisions do we
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need to make it when we get there?
18:52
And yeah, that that whole day was it just felt like it lasted
18:58
forever. It was, it was pretty, you know,
19:00
from going to the first appointment of the day and that
19:05
38 week appointment to then having Lila delivered at 10:49
19:09
PM the day, just like it just sprawled on it just would not
19:14
end. And they put us into a room when
19:17
we got there and some couple hours into being there and just
19:21
like existing in this space where I see my wife right there
19:24
across from me. And she's still so pregnant and
19:27
the way that I've seen her for the last almost nine months.
19:30
And I had a panic attack just being like, I couldn't.
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That was the first panic attack I've ever had.
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And I was so overwhelmed by seeing my wife and seeing her
19:43
pregnant belly and seeing this, this sign of what was
19:46
historically this hope and this love and this joy.
19:49
And not that the love went anywhere from that image.
19:53
It just was so unfathomable. It's like, wait, is she really
19:59
dead? Because I don't think I believed
20:02
it, but the more I thought about it.
20:04
The more I started to actualize it and that's when it became to
20:08
the point of overwhelming, just having a panic attack and being
20:12
unable to kind of console or control myself.
20:15
And we kept getting pushed back to the time where Lila was going
20:20
to be delivered because, you know, we were in their care.
20:23
We were in the hospital, we're checked in.
20:25
There are other things that were coming up.
20:26
They were more imminent. But finally they saw us and my
20:29
wife opted for AC section and we, they wheeled her back and
20:34
then waited till I could come back and be there with her.
20:37
She was on a bunch of medications and just opted for
20:40
AC section and, and every drug imaginable to try and make it
20:43
the most manageable situation that it could be because it was
20:48
a nightmare. And I remember going back there
20:52
and she was obviously very medicated, which I was grateful
20:56
for. And I just sat there with her
21:01
and like, you know, talked to her and she seemed very calm and
21:04
very Zen and very centered and, you know, a little loopy.
21:10
And then they delivered Lila. And that was like the moment
21:13
that I was like, this is really real.
21:16
It was just, I can still see it so clearly this like it was
21:19
almost like there was a pillar of light like in the operating
21:22
room. And then they pulled her out and
21:24
she just looked like a sleeping newborn.
21:26
And it was so quiet. It was just the beeping of the
21:30
machines became completely faint, almost inaudible in my
21:34
mind. And that silence, because of
21:37
what I had envisioned being such a moment with these anticipatory
21:41
sounds of crying and joy of just silence.
21:45
And it was, it was so huge. That silence was massive.
21:51
And they had me come over and cut the umbilical cord.
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And the hardest part, I think I, I mean, that was seeing her,
21:58
seeing Lila born and then seeing her put down and just like
22:01
lifeless was very traumatic. And then, you know, they
22:08
swaddled her and they gave her to my wife and she was still
22:11
obviously heavily medicated. And my wife was saying like, oh,
22:13
my baby, my baby, I love you so much.
22:16
And that was super hard to watch because I was like, wow, does
22:21
she is she so medicated that she doesn't remember like what
22:25
happened or that she does she not remember that Lyla's dead?
22:28
Like it was, it was complicated to to put it mildly or simply.
22:34
And that delivery room, just that that was what for me became
22:41
that that was the point of the most intense trauma, I would say
22:43
for me was everything I saw. And with the blood and with the
22:47
lifelessness and the silence and the not knowing if my wife at
22:51
that moment forgot that Lila died.
22:52
It was, it was so swirling and so intense.
22:58
It's, it's something I can pretty regularly if I return to
23:01
and go into detail like I will, I can make myself cry.
23:04
So if I'm ever cast in like a Hollywood movie and I need to be
23:07
able to cry in that Hollywood movie, I can, I can turn it on.
23:11
I, I, I can possess that skill. It's just cry on command because
23:16
that was so difficult. Luckily, through therapy and
23:19
EMDR, it's become easier to return to.
23:22
It just became something I couldn't touch for so long or
23:24
even really talk about. But it still is just so heavy.
23:28
And that was that, you know, marked another moment of OK from
23:32
here forward. And then there's the where do we
23:35
go? What's going to happen?
23:36
How long do we get with her? How dealing with her turning in
23:44
a way where it's like, OK, we have to go soon because they
23:46
can't even with a cuddle cot do like the cuddle cot has now run
23:50
its course. Like we can't.
23:51
She's changing. She's changing and that that is
23:56
exceptionally difficult. I once again back to commutes
24:01
like I have. I just don't remember leaving
24:04
the hospital at all. I don't remember if we took
24:05
stairs, elevator. I don't remember driving home at
24:08
the time. We lived very, very close to the
24:10
hospital. I mean, so close we could have
24:11
walked, but I have no recollection whatsoever of
24:15
leaving. And I think that's likely
24:17
because we didn't have moments where we left her alone.
24:22
And so that was like a definitive separation.
24:25
And I think that was pretty hard for me to I I was just like,
24:31
wait, how can we leave her? How can we, how is how is this
24:35
it? How is this goodbye?
24:37
How is this? Until we picked up her ashes,
24:39
you know, at the Funeral Home down the road, but down the
24:43
road, both physically and down the road proverbially.
24:47
But yeah, yeah, that hospital and we were lucky we had an
24:50
incredible care team, but that was hell.
24:52
That was I I don't. I'm not a very religious person
24:58
at all, but I don't fear a hell anywhere else.
25:03
I feel like I had existed in it right there in so far as I can
25:09
imagine what hell would be. That was it.
25:12
Yeah, I know. And and really Rob, you know,
25:15
leaving hospital empty, armed, you know, having to plan a
25:19
funeral or plan, you know, cremation with a baby that just
25:23
days prior you weren't, you know, it's it's crazy like when
25:29
we get married, plan to have a family.
25:31
Never in a million years do we plan to have that unimaginable
25:36
worst case scenario happen to us.
25:38
And leaving the hospital knowing that that's the last time
25:40
physically we'll ever see our children is just there just are
25:45
no words. It's it's awful.
25:47
It's yeah, we talk about it a lot in Sad Dad's club that that
25:52
like physically removing ourselves from being physically
25:56
with them forever in that that there is always there's there's
26:01
such an end point to their physical presence in your life,
26:06
which is really difficult. And certainly do things to keep
26:09
them with us through signs and spiritually and honoring them in
26:14
different ways. But that physical component is
26:16
still one we can't do anything to get back.
26:18
And so that's why we work so hard to really emphasize every
26:22
other way that we can keep their presence and and amplify it
26:27
wherever and whenever we can. Yes, absolutely, Rob.
26:32
Well, thank you for sharing. You know Lila's birth story.
26:35
You know her, everything about her in these moments.
26:40
So thank you. Oh, you're.
26:42
Welcome. Yeah, when so when you both were
26:45
leaving the hospital, of course, and that mental health, right,
26:48
just realizing like you literally were going through
26:52
hell on earth right there in those moments, Like, how did you
26:57
start to recognize or see in yourselves that maybe you needed
27:00
more, you needed a sense of community or people who
27:02
understood what you were going through?
27:06
Well, I think we were lucky in a lot of regards, which is hardly
27:09
a word that people use when talking about something like
27:12
this. But I did have I, I, you know, I
27:14
knew we needed help from a professional.
27:16
I'd never done therapy leading up to losing Lila, which is not
27:20
at all a flex. It's more like, wow, I can't
27:23
believe that that was when I, I could have.
27:25
Everybody can stand therapy. I don't think it's a sign of
27:27
weakness. I think it's a good outlet and a
27:29
healthy 1 where people can. As adults, we have complicated
27:33
lives and we go through complicated things and emotions
27:36
are complicated. So having a dedicated space to
27:38
really figure those out for me, it allows me to return to life
27:43
in a more balanced and sensible and controlled way.
27:47
So as I mentioned, we were lucky.
27:51
I say I always put it that we had the fortunate misfortune
27:54
that one of my best friends from college, Jay, who is a Co
27:58
founder of Sad Dad's club, 11 months earlier, he and his wife
28:02
lost their their second born their their second child, their
28:06
daughter Bella at 41 weeks. And so that was January of 2017.
28:10
We lost Lila in December of 2017.
28:12
So in that same calendar year and we were living very close to
28:15
one another. We had also gone to Bowden
28:17
College together and I, I was there for him as much as I could
28:22
be. And I saw how devastating this
28:24
loss was for his family and how complicated it was.
28:28
And I though, I, I, then I had someone I could go to
28:31
immediately and I had someone who was there for me even while
28:34
I was in the hospital. I had someone who took the car
28:37
seat out of my car and I, I had somewhere to go.
28:42
I had a net. I, I didn't hit the floor.
28:44
I didn't, I didn't fall all the way down.
28:46
I I had someone to catch me and 11 or rather seven months after
28:51
losing Lila through a mutual college friend, we were
28:53
introduced to Chris, who's another Co founder, the third Co
28:57
founder of Sad Dad's club. And the impetus of sad Dad's
29:00
club was that the three of us as fathers were spending a lot of
29:02
time together. And we realized and recognized
29:06
that this is an incredibly helpful resource for all of us
29:12
to have one another, to have a place where we can go and
29:15
actually say everything or say nothing, but no explanation
29:18
whatsoever is needed because we just inherently get it.
29:21
And whenever you connect with a lost at I, I always use like my
29:25
hands to describe this because like you meet someone as an
29:27
adult or as anyone and you, you start at this level.
29:30
But if you meet another lost parent, you're like there with
29:32
them just because you have this elevated sense of understanding
29:37
of what their life is like, or at least what they're going
29:40
through. So I might be jumping ahead
29:42
here, but that that was the impetus like that the three of
29:46
us spending a lot of time together and realizing like,
29:48
hey, this is really important and this is really great that we
29:51
have one another to lean on. And there are probably a lot of
29:56
dads out there who don't have anyone in their community or any
29:59
loved one who's ever been through anything like what
30:01
they're going through. And that's where alienation and
30:04
isolation and grief is going to manifest.
30:07
And that's when it gets really dangerous.
30:09
And that's what we want to, that's what we want to eliminate
30:12
with Sad Dads Club is we thought we don't want anybody out there
30:16
going through this alone. We don't want somebody thinking
30:19
that this has only happened to them if they have nowhere to go,
30:22
if they have no one else to process that grief with, if they
30:25
don't have resources to other, you know, clinical or
30:30
professional mental health services that could help them.
30:33
It's a little scary to think what might happen to them and
30:37
what might happen to their life. Absolutely, Absolutely.
30:41
This is something, you know, so traumatic and happens to, you
30:46
know, young couples, different circumstances, whatever, but and
30:49
having, you know, spaces that are safe and feeling that sense
30:54
of connection, someone who actually understands what you're
30:57
going through or has been on the path that you're going through.
31:00
There is nothing more powerful than that.
31:03
To hear it from someone like how did you handle this situation?
31:06
How did you you know, handle this so you can find your own
31:09
way, make your own way, but understanding that you're not
31:13
alone in this and that you're not walking this path because
31:15
there's others of us who have but still birth infant loss.
31:18
All of that is not really talked about South understanding and
31:23
that's changing now right with sad dad's club, you know,
31:26
chasing rainbows all the things, but it's like to have that
31:29
community of of men lost dads who understand what that you're
31:34
going through like you've been on this path is so powerful in
31:38
that room. Absolutely and.
31:41
I've seen someone not long ago asked me how do men and women
31:45
grieve differently? Said I don't know, 'cause I'm a
31:49
man, so I, I, I, I, But in all seriousness, that was just to be
31:55
a little funny. But there I, I don't know that
31:58
we grieve that differently. I don't know that there is a
32:01
different internal like emotional and physical turning
32:07
and churning and pain and tension.
32:10
I just know that there is not an invitation historically,
32:14
societally generationally for men to be really vulnerable or
32:19
to talk about what they're feeling.
32:21
And the adage of be a man, which is defined historically as that
32:26
means grin and Barrett or whatever other saying of suck it
32:29
up or that's just not a realistic expectation of any
32:33
human being. And during the most dramatic
32:35
loss of their life. And I think they I, what I've
32:38
seen from the men in Sad Dad's club is there is a willingness
32:41
to be in touch with their feelings.
32:43
There is a desire to express things that are difficult to
32:48
have someone to talk to in moments where they feel really
32:51
low and really alone. And it's just a matter of
32:56
facilitating that space, nurturing that space, and making
33:00
sure that that space looks like one that is comfortable and
33:07
adjustable also for anybody who enters it.
33:10
And that just means like any way that you show up in Sad Dad's
33:13
Club, you can be. If you feel in that moment that
33:16
you just want to listen, then you can just listen.
33:18
I don't if you have a whole bunch of stuff you want to get
33:21
off your chest, then the floor is yours.
33:24
We just cannot expect that in any one moment that everyone in
33:28
this community is going to feel like they're ready for the same
33:31
thing. And that's why we have to be
33:33
flexible with our space and we have to be.
33:36
I think that's what keeps dad's coming back too, is they know
33:38
that, as we say, the only expectation is there is no
33:41
expectation. As long as you conduct yourself
33:43
with respect for others there and you that that's really it.
33:49
That's like that's the, that's the ground level.
33:52
It's just respect and compassion and empathy and patience.
33:57
And we're so good at at giving that to each other.
34:01
We're still working on giving that to ourselves, which we talk
34:04
about often, which is so that's a conundrum right there.
34:08
I was like, and we say, hey, you would ask me to be easier on
34:12
myself. So you should allow yourself to
34:14
be easier on yourself. But we're still working through
34:16
that one all together as a community, yes.
34:20
No, but it's so true. And I think you're right.
34:23
You know, societal norms, right, with how men historically have
34:28
been told to manage mental health or to grievous, like keep
34:31
the house going, keep things moving.
34:33
Like it's expected that the mom would be sad, right?
34:36
But like the dad needs to continue to go, go, go.
34:40
And in all reality, we're emotional beings, all of us, and
34:45
we don't operate as robots, and that's not who we are.
34:48
And. So to have that safe space, to
34:50
have that community turn to where all there is is respect.
34:53
Because right, like one day you're gonna feel a certain way,
34:56
the next day you might not, you know, But to just show up and be
35:00
there for one another and to respect one another's losses and
35:02
stories and journeys and to help one another really is just
35:08
strength. And I think.
35:10
That so for me, and I know I've heard this from other dads, and
35:15
this is by no means to say all dads, but for me, even though
35:18
yes, I had somebody that I could go to immediately, but I also
35:22
wanted so badly to focus on my wife because that was the way I
35:27
could regain control. That was a way that I could be
35:30
helpful after losing complete control.
35:33
I had someone else I loved my wife who I could focus on.
35:38
She was physically healing and I also wasn't really ready to
35:43
confront and process again. I had someone I could go to, but
35:46
I didn't, I wasn't ready to get into it that way.
35:48
So there was a bit of delayed grief.
35:50
Not that I wasn't feeling it, I was just numb to it.
35:52
I guess that would exactly suggest I wasn't feeling it.
35:55
I, I knew it was there. I wasn't ready to dive into it.
35:58
And so being strong, focusing on my wife, keeping the household
36:02
going, doing anything I could to distract myself.
36:05
Also, you know, drinking way too much, all these things became
36:10
the escape for the inevitable wanting or, or needing to really
36:14
get into it. And I think that expecting that
36:17
somebody is like ready immediately to get into
36:20
processing and digging through their grief is, is also
36:22
unrealistic. I think that men fall into maybe
36:26
the, again, from what I've heard, I, I can't speak for
36:29
every single man. I will never make a sweeping
36:31
generalization, but a lot of men need that that buffer time
36:36
before they're ready to connect with another dad or to go into
36:40
it. They just have to kind of get
36:42
their feet beneath them. And then unfortunately, it
36:47
emerges in ways. I mean, we've had a bunch of
36:48
dads come through and be like, I punched a hole in the wall and
36:51
my wife was like, OK, you got to do something.
36:53
You got to you got to something's got to change here.
36:55
Sad dads club, like give it a try.
36:57
And a lot of them come in and think there is no way anything
37:01
could possibly help me for what I'm going through because this
37:04
is so heavy. This is so traumatic.
37:06
This is so dark. There is no way that sitting
37:10
with a bunch of other dads who have also been through a yeah,
37:13
sure, I get that, but there's no way it could help.
37:17
But miraculously, then it does. And that's a testament to all
37:21
the dads who are coming through our doors and all the dads who
37:24
are showing up for one another. It's, it's become this
37:28
unbelievable community of dads all over the world who are
37:32
showing up for support and who are also showing up to support
37:35
others. And it's a beautiful harmony
37:37
that I've never experienced anywhere else.
37:40
I'm a firm believer, always have been going to Quaker schools
37:43
growing up about what the power of community means, what it is
37:46
that everybody has something of of value to offer, that we are
37:49
all on the equal level. We are all there because we're
37:53
dealing with something incredibly painful and
37:55
complicated that's going to last for the rest of our lives.
37:58
And I think that really does bring everyone back to zero.
38:00
And that does create a space where there's just so much love
38:07
because there's so much desire to honor our children, keep
38:13
their story going and support one another through the moments
38:16
that feel so difficult that, you know, getting out of bed is a
38:19
challenge. Absolutely.
38:22
And it comes out in other ways. And I think, Rob, that's really
38:25
important too, because it might not be that immediate help or
38:27
knowing that they need immediate help, but you know, punching
38:30
holes and walls, maybe drinking too much or, you know, different
38:33
on like. And at that time, maybe not
38:35
recognizing it because we did go through something, you know, so
38:39
horrific. But you know, when that starts
38:41
to become like the pattern or, you know, unhealthy, But for a
38:45
partner to maybe recognize that and say, Hey, you know, here's
38:49
this community that understands or is there for you, you know,
38:52
during this to turn to in a gentle way, right?
38:56
And and be able to cope in healthier ways.
38:59
You know what are some of those coping?
39:01
Services that. Is available through Sad Dad's
39:04
Club so. We have kind of we have two main
39:09
areas of impact our we have our non clinical grief support and
39:14
then our clinical grief support. So our mission statement is that
39:17
Sad Dad's Club helps fellow bereaved fathers navigate life
39:20
after loss by nurturing A supportive community and
39:24
providing access to mental health services of that last
39:27
line, nurturing A supportive community.
39:30
That is where we provide non clinical community based
39:33
peer-to-peer support, whether it's virtually or in person.
39:36
We have a Discord. We have a private channel on the
39:38
Discord app that is a free app for anybody unfamiliar and that
39:43
is active literally 24/7. There are dads all over the
39:46
world who are on that. If you reach out to us, you
39:48
attend one of our Zoom meetings. We give you an invitation link
39:50
to join that private channel. We have weekly Zoom sessions
39:55
that are large group based. We alternate.
39:58
We do every single Thursday at 8:30 Eastern and we alternate
40:01
themes every week. We have what's called Sad Dad's
40:04
Open Hour, which is an open floor discussion where if you
40:07
want to come turn your camera off and just listen, that's
40:09
totally cool. If you want to come to
40:11
participate and chat, you can do that too.
40:13
We always have a suggested topic.
40:15
Anything from careers after loss to intimacy after loss to.
40:19
Navigating the holidays, stuff like that.
40:21
But we also always say, hey, if you've got something that you
40:24
has been weighing heavily on, you say the word and we can
40:27
pivot. We're nimble.
40:28
The space belongs to all of us. We also offer some more
40:32
specialized small group cohorts that take the place over a
40:35
certain number of weeks. We just implemented a letter
40:38
writing journey that's facilitated by one of our dads
40:41
who developed a really thoughtful and incredible
40:43
program and he takes you through 5 prompts over 5 weeks where you
40:46
literally take a pen to paper. And I don't want to spoil the
40:49
surprise, but you can learn more about that on our website.
40:52
We just finished a small group cohort over six weeks for called
40:57
Fatherhood After Loss. That is for dads who have
40:59
experienced loss and subsequently went on to have a
41:02
healthy baby that is now at home between the ages of 0 and 24
41:05
months. So the idea there being that we
41:08
have a lot of dads in our community who don't have living
41:10
children. So we can't really focus in on
41:12
how do you navigate being a father after losing a child.
41:16
So we want to dedicate an intimate space.
41:18
We have a licensed clinical social worker who is
41:23
facilitating that space for us. We continue to, we're, we're
41:26
planning to continue to offer more of those and I'm getting
41:28
really specific about different non clinical offerings that we
41:32
have, but those are all of the things we do online, in person.
41:37
We have regional events hosted all over the country throughout
41:41
the year. We also do 2 retreats per year,
41:44
though next year we're probably going to do 3.
41:46
Historically the two retreats had been in Maine.
41:48
This year we did our first retreat in Lake Arrowhead, CA
41:52
earlier in May. And this fall we're going to do
41:55
a fall retreat in Maine, which is again where we've
41:59
historically hosted them. And on the providing access to
42:03
mental health services, we know that there is a disparity to
42:06
access there. And so not only do we want to
42:09
remove the financial barrier by paying for up to six sessions
42:12
per dad, but we also want to remove the logistical barrier.
42:15
So as an organization, Sad Dad's Club partners with therapist who
42:19
have experienced treating a patient who has endured child
42:21
loss and, and some and a therapist who specializes in
42:24
grief. So we are partnering with
42:25
therapists all over the country to make sure that we are sending
42:28
our dads to the person best suited to treat them for what
42:31
they're going to them for. And we have found through GAD 7
42:35
and PHQ 9, which are, to anybody out there who's not in the
42:38
professional mental health field, myself included, that
42:42
sounds like launch codes, but they are just a gauge of anxiety
42:45
and depression, and they're widely used in the mental health
42:48
space. And what we have found from
42:50
administering a GAD 7 and PHQ 9 survey at the beginning of these
42:54
six sessions and then at the very end of the final session is
42:56
that indeed this professional mental health intervention is
43:00
alleviating anxiety and depression in fathers.
43:04
So we are not saying choose one or the other, the non clinical
43:08
community based support or the professional mental health
43:10
support. We are saying this is what we
43:12
have. This is what we feel like will
43:14
give people the best chance and the most robust package for
43:17
healing. And our work is never done.
43:21
We're always thinking of new ways that we can meet dads where
43:23
they are. One of our dads came to us
43:25
recently and said, hey, could we host like an art therapy thing
43:27
on Zoom where we can invite people if they want to just
43:29
watch. And then we can invite dads if
43:31
they want to share anything from music to to visual art to visual
43:36
art covers a lot of us about to say to pottery is pottery
43:38
considered visual art? I don't know see, but I I think
43:43
so too. So what whatever artistic outlet
43:45
you have that you wanted to share with people and talking
43:47
about how that connects to helping you process your grief.
43:50
All this to say, like we're in the midst of also formalizing
43:54
regional chapters so that we can more regularly do these regional
43:58
events where we have high concentration of dads.
44:00
And I'm working with one of the dads in our community on
44:03
expanding that and formalizing it.
44:04
Rather, every dad who has an idea is welcome to share that
44:10
idea and we're going to try it because we are in control of our
44:13
community and we figure that if you have an idea that resonates
44:17
with you, it will probably resonate with other people.
44:20
So let's try it. And that is back where the
44:22
concept of this, this truly is a community.
44:26
Yes, I am, I am the sole currently the sole full time
44:30
employee of the organization, but I am only speaking on behalf
44:33
of it. What Sad Dad's Club is and what
44:34
we do and what is special about it is because of every single
44:38
individual father who shows up and continues to show up.
44:42
That doesn't mean that. And, and I don't say that to me
44:45
like, hey, if you come, you better keep coming back.
44:47
You're supposed to come if you feel like it helps you and it's
44:50
supposed to be there when you feel like you need it.
44:54
But we have such an incredible community of dads who are so
44:57
eager to see this grow and to see what we offer, be able to
45:01
meet any dad where they are, that again, if dad has an idea
45:05
to do something, let's try it. We're always going to try it,
45:09
absolutely. Absolutely, Rob.
45:11
I cannot say that enough. And I think that's why we
45:13
connect so well, because it really is that individualized
45:16
approach and also understanding that it's not just your voice or
45:20
my voice or this person's voice or that dad's voice.
45:23
It's really a community of voices because you don't know
45:25
who's going to resonate or connect with that voice and that
45:28
story because it might not be you, right?
45:31
But understanding, recognizing that maybe something that you
45:33
didn't need, but something that another dad needs like art
45:36
therapy. But that also speaks volumes
45:39
about your organization and how you guys are willing to evolve,
45:44
grow, expand based on what others need and not based on
45:49
what you're saying they need. Exactly.
45:52
We, we can't say definitively what every dad needs, but we
45:55
will try what we think is right and what other people suggest.
45:59
And as we see it working, we'll keep doing it.
46:02
And that's what we are committed to is trying to meet each dad.
46:06
I, we know we can't be everything to everyone, but we
46:09
can certainly try our best to meet dads where they are.
46:12
And that's what we're committed to.
46:14
Absolutely, Rob. That is so beautiful, you know,
46:16
for someone listening who you know loves a grieving father.
46:21
What should they do, say you know to to help them or to you
46:27
know, get them connected to sad Dad's club make?
46:31
Sure, they know that we exist. Don't push them to say, hey,
46:35
it's it's Thursday night. Are you going to sign on to
46:37
their Zoom? Just let them go with their own
46:39
pace. Make sure they know what we have
46:41
available, which I know I spouted off a whole bunch of
46:43
things, few of them are easy to remember, but just consider that
46:47
we have online based support regularly.
46:50
We have in person meetups as well as retreats, and we have
46:54
access to professional mental health services that we pay for
46:57
with therapists whom we're partnered with.
46:59
Just make sure they know how to reach us.
47:01
Sad Dads club.org. If you go to the connect and
47:04
contact tab that goes directly to my inbox.
47:06
Something that we are committed to is making sure that we're
47:09
getting back to dads in a timely manner.
47:12
Usually if a dad reaches out, they're not going to to wait
47:14
more than 24 hours to get a response from us.
47:17
And when they hear back from us, they will have a list of
47:19
resources immediately available and an overview of what it is we
47:22
offer. Just make sure they know we
47:26
exist. That's what I would say to
47:27
anybody out there who loves the lost dad and who wants to help
47:30
them. The goal with sad dad's club, I
47:34
feel like I've always said the goal, the goal.
47:36
We have many goals clearly, but the the really like the ultimate
47:40
goal is to make sure that no dad out there who is navigating
47:43
child loss thinks that there's nothing out there for them.
47:46
So as long as they know, even if what I think about almost every
47:50
Thursday after we conclude, one of our Zoom sessions is I wonder
47:54
who out there was about to come, but they didn't come.
47:57
But they still got the comfort knowing, OK, it's going to be
48:00
there again. And consistency is something
48:02
that we are committed to right from the jump.
48:04
When we started this, we said, if we can't be consistent and
48:07
reliable, then we better pack our bags and get and, and, and
48:11
quit now because people are coming to us in their most
48:15
vulnerable state and fragile state imaginable.
48:18
And so we are committed to being consistent.
48:21
So as long as a dad knows about us, as long as they know that we
48:24
have a Discord, that we have Zoom sessions, but we have dads
48:28
all over the country and even the world that they can connect
48:30
with in person if they want to, that's what they need to know.
48:33
And whenever they're ready, sad dadsclub.org or go straight to
48:36
the source info@saddadsclub.org and people can reach out
48:39
directly via e-mail. But we are always here.
48:42
This has to far outlive all of us and that is our ultimate
48:46
hope. Absolutely.
48:47
Rob, thank. You thank you so much and I'll
48:50
make sure in the description of this episode I will put all of
48:54
your contact information. So please, please, please,
48:56
anyone listening who feels, you know their partner, could, you
48:59
know, benefit from support or needing to know a space that
49:02
they can get support, you know, share this information with
49:05
them. And Rob, I just cannot thank you
49:07
enough for coming on here, sharing about your baby girl,
49:11
sharing her story, sharing so others don't feel so alone and
49:15
isolated and just thank you for all that you are doing to change
49:19
what is happening with maternal mental health in this space.
49:23
So thank you, thank you, thank you.
49:26
Right back at you, Bernice. Thank you for everything that
49:28
you're doing with chasing the Rainbows and supporting lost
49:31
moms everywhere out there. Thank you, Rob.
49:34
Thank you. Thank you for your honesty, your
49:37
vulnerability, and for helping us better understand something
49:40
that's so many people miss that group.
49:43
Fathers grieve, too. What stands out so deeply in
49:46
today's conversation is this grief does not belong to one
49:49
parent. When a baby dies, a mother
49:52
grieves. A father grieves.
49:53
A relationship grieves. And too often, dads are expected
49:56
to carry that pain quietly. But silence doesn't heal.
49:59
Community does. Conversation does.
50:01
Being seen does. And that's what you've built
50:04
through Sad Dad's Club. And here, you know, you're
50:07
helping to rewrite that story, reminding fathers everywhere
50:10
that they do not have to hold this alone and that asking for
50:13
support is not weakness, it's courage and strength.
50:15
And to every dad listening right now, whether you've experienced
50:18
any type of these losses, these traumatic losses, we want you to
50:22
know this. Your grief matters, your baby
50:24
matters, and you matter. If this episode today resonates
50:28
with you, share it with someone who may need to hear it.
50:30
And Rob, thank you again so much for making sure fathers
50:33
everywhere knows that they are not forgotten.
50:37
Until next time this is cried out loud, Thank you.