Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Beyond the Dream Job: How To Navigate Career Transitions & Find True Fulfillment with Career Contessa Lauren McGoodwin

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Beyond the Dream Job: How To Navigate Career Transitions & Find True Fulfillment with Career Contessa Lauren McGoodwin · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:08
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
0:12
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
0:17
Speaker 2: This is pretty smart.
0:20
Speaker 3: Hello, and I hope you're having a wonderful day now.
0:24
Speaker 3: Usually I would talk on here a little bit more
0:26
Speaker 3: before we get started, but I'm gonna be honest with
0:29
Speaker 3: you all. I was in Vegas for Super Bowl this weekend.
0:32
Speaker 3: I'm tired. I am really tired. I'm running on fumes.
0:37
Speaker 3: So I'm just gonna mention a few quick things before
0:39
Speaker 3: we dive into today's episode. And by the way, we
0:42
Speaker 3: recorded this when I was not tired, so it's a
0:45
Speaker 3: great episode.
0:46
Speaker 2: This intro may not be so great.
0:49
Speaker 3: Everybody at Super Bowl, besides talking about football, was talking
0:53
Speaker 3: about Taylor Swift. And one of the things I found
0:56
Speaker 3: so interesting is that the NFL has been trying to
0:58
Speaker 3: get female viewers for the last few years, and female
1:03
Speaker 3: viewership is up eleven percent since July. The NFL has
1:08
Speaker 3: made over three hundred and thirty million dollars off of
1:11
Speaker 3: the tailor effect. And one of the things I think
1:14
Speaker 3: is really cool. All these young girls are watching football
1:19
Speaker 3: with their dads. Anything that Bond's parents with kids is
1:23
Speaker 3: super cool. In my book, I'm sort of shocked that
1:25
Speaker 3: one person can yield all of this power. Now, imagine
1:31
Speaker 3: if she makes a statement about getting out the vote.
1:35
Speaker 2: Not even saying who she's going to.
1:36
Speaker 3: Vote for, but just to rock the vote. Imagine how
1:40
Speaker 3: many young people she could mobilize. Anyway, that's what's on
1:45
Speaker 3: my brain this morning. But without further ado, let's get
1:49
Speaker 3: into today's episode. The idea of a dream job is
1:56
Speaker 3: one I think a lot of us have been obsessing
1:58
Speaker 3: about for a very long time time, for a lot
2:01
Speaker 3: of millennial and Gen Z women especially, I think the
2:03
Speaker 3: idea of finding it was ingrained in us at a
2:07
Speaker 3: really young age. Find a job you love to do,
2:10
Speaker 3: and you'll never work a day in your life, they said.
2:13
Speaker 3: But for a lot of people this pursuit can be
2:15
Speaker 3: deeply unsatisfying, and I think it can be a bit
2:18
Speaker 3: of an elusive chase where you get caught up in
2:21
Speaker 3: the idea of how something should be should feel when
2:25
Speaker 3: reality hits, whether it's in the form of a bad boss,
2:29
Speaker 3: a low paycheck, or the tedious tasks that come with.
2:32
Speaker 2: It, it can make you feel lost.
2:34
Speaker 3: So today, I wanted to help us find some direction
2:37
Speaker 3: with the help of Career Kintessa, also known as Lauren mcgodwin,
2:41
Speaker 3: a former recruiter and now a career expert. She's on
2:45
Speaker 3: a mission to help you be more fulfilled, healthy, and
2:50
Speaker 3: successful at work. She is one of the go to
2:53
Speaker 3: resources for women looking to level up their work lives.
2:57
Speaker 3: She's also the host of the Career Kntessa podcast and
2:59
Speaker 3: author third of the book Power Moves. One of the
3:02
Speaker 3: things I really valued about this conversation is that she's
3:05
Speaker 3: really honest about the messaging we've all been taught when
3:08
Speaker 3: it comes to careers, and she wants to throw it
3:11
Speaker 3: all out the window.
3:12
Speaker 4: One of the messages out there that is incorrect is
3:14
Speaker 4: that the dream job does exist and that if you
3:17
Speaker 4: don't have one, you should just keep working harder until
3:20
Speaker 4: you find one.
3:21
Speaker 1: So today Lauren is reframing the idea of a dream
3:24
Speaker 1: job for all of us. She's also giving us her
3:27
Speaker 1: number one salary negotiation tip that I will never forget. Plus,
3:32
Speaker 1: she talks about why passion is not the key to
3:35
Speaker 1: building your career.
3:36
Speaker 2: It's something I wasn't sure I agreed with her on.
3:39
Speaker 1: In the outset of this conversation, but then she explained
3:43
Speaker 1: that idea more thoroughly, and I now see what she means,
3:47
Speaker 1: although I still think he got to infuse a little passion.
3:51
Speaker 2: But one thing we definitely.
3:52
Speaker 3: Do agree on is embracing the opportunity to create a
3:56
Speaker 3: career path that truly reflects who you are, whether you're
4:00
Speaker 3: taking a leap of faith into a completely new field
4:03
Speaker 3: or making subtle adjustments within your current role. Our guest
4:07
Speaker 3: today has actionable advice on how to do that during
4:11
Speaker 3: unprecedented times like these. So, Lauren, in your bio for
4:19
Speaker 3: Career Kntessa, you describe yourself as someone who had to
4:22
Speaker 3: navigate her own tough career transition, which I think is
4:27
Speaker 3: really interesting and poignant that you put that in your bio.
4:31
Speaker 3: What was the transition that you were talking about and
4:34
Speaker 3: why was it so tough?
4:36
Speaker 4: Yes, Well, first of all, if we can go back
4:38
Speaker 4: to two thousand and nine, which I know is hard,
4:40
Speaker 4: but there was a very bad financial recession happening, and
4:43
Speaker 4: that's when I graduated college when there were like no jobs.
4:46
Speaker 4: So I think the first tough transition was just like
4:49
Speaker 4: college to career, which I think is tough for everybody,
4:51
Speaker 4: but is especially tough when like nobody's hiring and the
4:54
Speaker 4: people they are hiring are definitely not people with zero
4:57
Speaker 4: experience from there. I It took me a very long time,
5:01
Speaker 4: but I eventually landed a role working as an admin
5:03
Speaker 4: assistant for a major univer or like a large university.
5:06
Speaker 4: Absolutely hated the job the whole time I was there,
5:09
Speaker 4: like a picture windowless room, cubicles, Like you show up
5:14
Speaker 4: and there's nothing for you to do all day except
5:16
Speaker 4: answer the phone when it rings, Like that's just like
5:18
Speaker 4: a very draining thing. And so that was where the
5:21
Speaker 4: tough transition. I always refer to that story where it started,
5:24
Speaker 4: which is like I'm at this dead end job. It
5:27
Speaker 4: has nothing to do with anything I studied, Like I
5:29
Speaker 4: feel just totally the whiplash of like expectation hangover of
5:33
Speaker 4: what I thought it was going to be like versus
5:35
Speaker 4: what it is. And it became sort of this obsession
5:38
Speaker 4: of like, I'm not going to stay here and the
5:41
Speaker 4: rest of my career. I'm not going to be a
5:42
Speaker 4: person who's here for thirty years, Like how can I
5:44
Speaker 4: get out? And then the big question of like what
5:47
Speaker 4: is it that I want to do? Where am I
5:48
Speaker 4: going to do it? How am I going to get
5:50
Speaker 4: the job? And when you decide to make a career transition,
5:53
Speaker 4: I don't think people understand who maybe like fell into
5:56
Speaker 4: a career and then they just kind of like keep
5:58
Speaker 4: bouncing around on it. When you want to make a
6:00
Speaker 4: career transition, it is that many stepping stones, right, It
6:04
Speaker 4: is Okay, I want to do something different, Okay, how
6:06
Speaker 4: am I going to do that? Okay? The you know,
6:09
Speaker 4: the two steps forward, one step back, and all of
6:11
Speaker 4: that that happened. I eventually did leave that dead end
6:15
Speaker 4: job and I landed a recruiting coordinator position at Hulu.
6:19
Speaker 4: Hulu is definitely more of a startup than it is now.
6:21
Speaker 4: I don't think I don't think I could get a
6:23
Speaker 4: job at Hulu as a recruiting coordinator today like that.
6:26
Speaker 4: But I, you know, I was still able to be
6:28
Speaker 4: creative and pitch myself and got in there. And I
6:30
Speaker 4: always tell people I landed that job with zero recruiting experience,
6:34
Speaker 4: and it wasn't because I was the most qualified. I
6:36
Speaker 4: was clearly not the most qualified, but I was definitely
6:38
Speaker 4: the most passionate about that job. I had the best
6:41
Speaker 4: story connecting the dots of why I was the fit
6:44
Speaker 4: for that job. And so for people who oftentimes find
6:48
Speaker 4: career contesta or find our resources when they say I'm
6:51
Speaker 4: going through a tough transition, I'm like, I've been there.
6:54
Speaker 4: I understand what that's like. And I just think that
6:57
Speaker 4: career transitions are hard and that if you've ever been
7:02
Speaker 4: in one before, then you know what I'm talking about.
7:04
Speaker 4: But I did eventually make it out, and it was
7:06
Speaker 4: making it sound much more linear than it was. But
7:08
Speaker 4: that was a tough career transition I'm referring to.
7:11
Speaker 1: It stuck out to me initially because the DMS that
7:14
Speaker 1: I get are oftentimes about career because I think the
7:18
Speaker 1: women that listen to Pretty Smart are just really ambitious,
7:21
Speaker 1: and it's oftentimes about I'm doing X, and I want
7:25
Speaker 1: to do why? How do I do why? And we
7:28
Speaker 1: kind of think, like, just go do it, but it's
7:30
Speaker 1: actually very challenging.
7:31
Speaker 2: I call it I had a career quake. That's what
7:33
Speaker 2: I call them.
7:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good good name because it's very accurate.
7:38
Speaker 2: Well, it feels like.
7:39
Speaker 1: The earth is moving from underneath you. It's actually really scary,
7:43
Speaker 1: but very fulfilling when you get to the other end.
7:46
Speaker 1: And I use the word fulfilling because that's what you do.
7:51
Speaker 1: You help people find fulfillment in their roles at work.
7:54
Speaker 1: So how do you define a fulfilling career?
7:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's a couple of things that I have learned,
8:01
Speaker 4: even from people on my podcast, that really help you
8:04
Speaker 4: be happy and fulfilled and successful in your career. The
8:08
Speaker 4: first thing is about relationships. So who you work with,
8:12
Speaker 4: I find is often more important than what it is
8:14
Speaker 4: that you're doing. Values or purpose? Are you value aligned
8:18
Speaker 4: with the microculture? Your micro micro culture is like your boss,
8:22
Speaker 4: your coworkers, your team dynamic. But are you also values
8:26
Speaker 4: and purpose aligned with the company. You don't need to
8:28
Speaker 4: be like overly obsessive and like use the product every day,
8:31
Speaker 4: but do you like it? Do you understand the purpose
8:34
Speaker 4: of what the company is doing? Are you somewhat aligned
8:36
Speaker 4: with that? We used to use the word culture fit
8:39
Speaker 4: a lot, Now we're using more like values fit a
8:41
Speaker 4: lot more because what we recognize is the person you
8:44
Speaker 4: want to get a beer with might not be the
8:46
Speaker 4: person you want to work on a project with. Right,
8:48
Speaker 4: So values might be like I really value people who
8:52
Speaker 4: are loyal, or people who are transparent, people who are trustworthy,
8:57
Speaker 4: And are you finding those values in this company, and
9:00
Speaker 4: more specifically, like I said your quote, micro culture on
9:03
Speaker 4: the team, which is your boss, your coworkers. The other
9:07
Speaker 4: thing that I have found that helps people be really
9:09
Speaker 4: fulfilled in their career is autonomy. So that might not
9:13
Speaker 4: necessarily mean autonomy over your schedule. You might work in
9:16
Speaker 4: an office, but some sort of autonomy, some sort of
9:19
Speaker 4: trust that you will get the work done or you
9:21
Speaker 4: know how to get the work done, and you have
9:22
Speaker 4: some autonomy, like having a micromanager doesn't seem to make
9:26
Speaker 4: people happy, we know that. But more important, like obviously
9:29
Speaker 4: one of the big things that we're seeing as a
9:31
Speaker 4: trend is autonomy over your schedule and how you spend
9:34
Speaker 4: your time is a big indicator of career fulfillment for people.
9:38
Speaker 4: Pre COVID, these conversations were very hard to have because
9:41
Speaker 4: it was just felt so unrealistic. But now there's like
9:44
Speaker 4: actual research out there by a ton of very smart
9:47
Speaker 4: companies who are doubling down on remote and distributed teams,
9:51
Speaker 4: who are actually finding about what does it take to
9:54
Speaker 4: be productive and collaborate successfully, and autonomy right is a
9:59
Speaker 4: big piece of that, meaning having that flexibility over your schedule,
10:03
Speaker 4: maybe not saying yes to every meeting. Having the ability
10:06
Speaker 4: to manage your calendar and those time blocks is also
10:09
Speaker 4: really important to people. So those are just some of
10:11
Speaker 4: the things I think that make people really fulfilled. Who
10:13
Speaker 4: you're working with and how you work is so much
10:16
Speaker 4: more important than where you work. I hope that location
10:19
Speaker 4: of office mandates and that kind of stuff will go away,
10:22
Speaker 4: but to not overwhelm people, those are just a few.
10:25
Speaker 1: Well, I'm noticing that you didn't mention how much you're
10:28
Speaker 1: being paid.
10:29
Speaker 4: That wasn't actually something in the data that we've found
10:32
Speaker 4: to be a direct piece of how fulfilled people are.
10:36
Speaker 4: People want to have security and safe like psychological safety
10:40
Speaker 4: and actual safety, meaning like I know that I'm going
10:43
Speaker 4: to be paid enough to be able to live. That's
10:45
Speaker 4: important to them. But I guess when I think about
10:48
Speaker 4: like the career condust, the audience and maybe your audiences
10:50
Speaker 4: are people who have legit careers. So for them, it's
10:54
Speaker 4: about making sure they're paid their market rate. But they're
10:57
Speaker 4: not often being paid like not enough money to live
11:01
Speaker 4: or something like that. This is not like millennial era
11:03
Speaker 4: where we all had unpaid internships. We're not finding that
11:06
Speaker 4: right now, and so for people, yes, pay them well,
11:10
Speaker 4: pay them the market rate and pay them fairly. But
11:13
Speaker 4: you can be paid really well and absolutely hate your
11:16
Speaker 4: job and not be fulfilled. That's basically the big thing
11:19
Speaker 4: is like, there are a lot of people out there
11:20
Speaker 4: who make a lot of money and they hate their job. BEFO,
11:22
Speaker 4: we're talking about being fulfilled in your career. Money isn't
11:25
Speaker 4: usually in the top three or four.
11:28
Speaker 2: I want your take on this.
11:29
Speaker 1: I had a job one time at a big entertainment
11:34
Speaker 1: network and I took one of the main hosts to
11:38
Speaker 1: lunch and I wanted to pick his brain. I was
11:40
Speaker 1: pretty young, and I said to him, how do you
11:44
Speaker 1: like it? I was asking him all about his history
11:46
Speaker 1: at his job at other places, other networks, and he said,
11:50
Speaker 1: you know, here's something that I think young people should know.
11:54
Speaker 1: He did sports previously. We was like, I used to
11:56
Speaker 1: be at the NFL network and I was super miserable,
12:01
Speaker 1: and I thought it was my job. And what I
12:02
Speaker 1: realized is I was actually miserable in my life for
12:05
Speaker 1: two years and I kind of blamed it on my job.
12:08
Speaker 2: And I never forgot that.
12:09
Speaker 1: He said that, because I'd never really thought of that,
12:13
Speaker 1: and I do think it's really poignant. How can you
12:15
Speaker 1: tell if you are fulfilled at your job, or if
12:19
Speaker 1: you're really just like pissed about other things and blaming
12:22
Speaker 1: it on your job.
12:24
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a really good point. And it's interesting because
12:27
Speaker 4: I have this phrase like you should strive for the
12:29
Speaker 4: good enough job, not the dream job. And I think
12:33
Speaker 4: part of what he's talking about comes from a mismanagement
12:36
Speaker 4: of expectations. And again, like I'm allennial, so I think
12:40
Speaker 4: a lot about how our generation got this like wrong messaging,
12:44
Speaker 4: but because we got it, met everybody else got it,
12:46
Speaker 4: which is one of the messages out there that is
12:49
Speaker 4: incorrect is that the dream job does exist and that
12:52
Speaker 4: if you don't have one, you should just keep working
12:54
Speaker 4: harder until you find one. And the idea behind the
12:57
Speaker 4: dream job is that it's going to check all these
12:59
Speaker 4: boxes and then it also helps check life boxes. Akay,
13:03
Speaker 4: something's wrong in your life, go get a new job. Right.
13:05
Speaker 4: It's like if instead of changing your own behavior, it'd
13:08
Speaker 4: be so much easier if you could just change your job.
13:10
Speaker 4: That's probably the thing. And so I think it's it's
13:12
Speaker 4: a mismanagement of expectations that one a dream job exists
13:15
Speaker 4: and two that you should go out and find it,
13:18
Speaker 4: because then what happens is like people will get a
13:20
Speaker 4: quote dream job and they realize, like, I'm still unhappy
13:23
Speaker 4: or this thing is still not working for me, because
13:25
Speaker 4: the truth is you take yourself wherever you go. So
13:28
Speaker 4: to his point, I was miserable here and then guess what,
13:31
Speaker 4: I moved over here and I was still miserable because
13:33
Speaker 4: I didn't work on the inside part. So I'm a
13:35
Speaker 4: big proponent of, like, instead, find the good enough job.
13:38
Speaker 4: The good enough job isn't going to ask you to
13:41
Speaker 4: basically give up your entire life and just work, which
13:44
Speaker 4: means you're going to have time and energy to focus
13:46
Speaker 4: on like, Okay, what's going on in my life? Do
13:49
Speaker 4: I need to get therapy and work through some stuff.
13:52
Speaker 4: Do I need to just maybe you know, have a
13:54
Speaker 4: little bit more social and community oriented miss things in
13:57
Speaker 4: my life because I'm missing that human connection. Do I
14:00
Speaker 4: need to prioritize my well being more? And I just
14:02
Speaker 4: don't actually have any time. I think that where we
14:06
Speaker 4: get off balance is and where we can kind of
14:08
Speaker 4: like make our careers check all the boxes is that
14:11
Speaker 4: we were told or made to believe that that is possible.
14:14
Speaker 4: So it makes logical sense, like something's not working in
14:17
Speaker 4: your life. It's probably your career. Your career is a
14:19
Speaker 4: huge piece of that pie, that life pie, so if
14:22
Speaker 4: you change that, you'll change some of the other parts.
14:24
Speaker 4: But no, that's unfortunately not how it works, which is
14:27
Speaker 4: why the dream job is a myth. I try not
14:30
Speaker 4: to use the phrasing dream job. Sometimes I understand it
14:32
Speaker 4: comes up, but like I try to take that vocabulary
14:36
Speaker 4: out for myself because it does it sets you up
14:40
Speaker 4: to have this expectation that is not based in reality,
14:45
Speaker 4: and it actually can keep you from being able to
14:48
Speaker 4: kind of fix those other things for yourself and end
14:51
Speaker 4: up being fulfilled somewhere else. Well.
14:53
Speaker 1: I love the idea of replacing dream job with fulfilling job,
14:57
Speaker 1: because you do want to like where you're working. Like
15:00
Speaker 1: you just said, I'm trying to not use the word
15:03
Speaker 1: favorite because I realized people kept asking me, like, what's
15:06
Speaker 1: your favorite interview? And I was like, that's just not descriptive,
15:09
Speaker 1: Like what was the most memorable interview is way more descriptive.
15:12
Speaker 1: So the idea of replacing dream with fulfilling I really
15:15
Speaker 1: just love. So there was this TikToker Gabrielle Judge, and
15:20
Speaker 1: she coined the term lazy girl jobs. Last year, and
15:24
Speaker 1: before that, the big term was quiet quitting. What do
15:28
Speaker 1: you think the twenty twenty four trend.
15:30
Speaker 4: Is going to be the opposite of those things because
15:34
Speaker 4: people are being laid off and they're like terrified. What
15:37
Speaker 4: we're seeing and at least what I see on like
15:40
Speaker 4: my own LinkedIn feed a lot is it's almost like
15:42
Speaker 4: this whiplash. I get some people who are having the
15:45
Speaker 4: best time of their life and they're getting promotions. I
15:47
Speaker 4: have tons of people who are having layoffs and they're
15:50
Speaker 4: just having this incredibly horrible experience with the job search
15:54
Speaker 4: companies ghosting them. And so I feel like, you know,
15:58
Speaker 4: this is the year of maybe just like kind of whiplash.
16:01
Speaker 4: It's like the fallout of like the pendulum swinging. You know,
16:04
Speaker 4: the power play was in the employee's hands. Then the
16:07
Speaker 4: power was in the employer's hands, and it's like, I
16:10
Speaker 4: hope twenty twenty four is a year of like, can
16:12
Speaker 4: we get back to some sort of balance. There's two
16:14
Speaker 4: people searching for a job for every one job posting
16:17
Speaker 4: that's open right now. That's that creates in a really
16:20
Speaker 4: tough environment, and that is something I'm very concerned about
16:24
Speaker 4: for people because it's taking a very long time to
16:26
Speaker 4: look for a job, and we don't have the safety
16:28
Speaker 4: net that we had during COVID where you got laid off,
16:31
Speaker 4: there was actual unemployment, student loans were on pause, you know,
16:35
Speaker 4: like we had more of a safety net. It feels
16:37
Speaker 4: like there isn't really a safety net for people when
16:40
Speaker 4: their careers go away. So, if anything, I hope what
16:43
Speaker 4: we talk about in twenty twenty four is how to
16:45
Speaker 4: create your own job security, Like, how can you have
16:48
Speaker 4: this agency over your career because clearly you're not. You
16:51
Speaker 4: can't expect to get that via a company.
16:54
Speaker 2: That's so depressing.
16:55
Speaker 1: I was hoping now and you would say something like
16:58
Speaker 1: virtual work, because that is a tracking I'm seeing like
17:01
Speaker 1: more companies are willing like I see it with my brother.
17:06
Speaker 1: The company he works for is scared to ask people
17:09
Speaker 1: to come into physical work because they know people will,
17:12
Speaker 1: like gen Z, will just quit.
17:14
Speaker 4: But on the flip side, I just talked to someone
17:16
Speaker 4: this morning who works for a very big, very cool
17:19
Speaker 4: company and they just went back to mandating that you
17:22
Speaker 4: have to be in the office three days a week
17:24
Speaker 4: and they're going to be checking via badges. I mean, look,
17:28
Speaker 4: are you better than five?
17:29
Speaker 2: Five is so unrealistic.
17:31
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and I agree, like maybe again, like maybe
17:35
Speaker 4: we're compromising and finding a happy middle place that is
17:37
Speaker 4: hybrid work. But it's really interesting because I'm a huge
17:41
Speaker 4: advocate of remote work. I wouldn't even call it remote work.
17:44
Speaker 4: It's distributed work because no matter where you are, you
17:46
Speaker 4: work in a distributed workplace. Right, Like, even if you
17:49
Speaker 4: worked in the same office, you're working maybe on different
17:51
Speaker 4: floors with each other. And there's so much incredible data
17:55
Speaker 4: and research done by people who are way smarter than me,
17:57
Speaker 4: where all they do is study this because it's the
17:59
Speaker 4: big company. It's about why you need to work in
18:02
Speaker 4: person and why virtual doesn't work. It's all about productivity
18:06
Speaker 4: and collaboration. And they have these expensive offices and it's like,
18:09
Speaker 4: but done correctly. Distributed workplaces don't get rid of an office.
18:14
Speaker 4: They don't get rid of seeing each other in person,
18:16
Speaker 4: and they don't get rid of connecting with people and
18:19
Speaker 4: working on projects. Like you're not getting less done, that's
18:21
Speaker 4: not how it works. But they do change how the
18:23
Speaker 4: work gets done. They might say, Okay, let's get together
18:26
Speaker 4: once a quarter, bring the team together to this office
18:29
Speaker 4: in San Francisco, and we're going to for that week,
18:32
Speaker 4: we focus on this and this and this, And there's
18:34
Speaker 4: research that has shown when they get together in person,
18:38
Speaker 4: that connection, that bond with your team lasts for about
18:41
Speaker 4: four or five months before we have to do it again.
18:44
Speaker 4: So it's like, you don't need to be in the
18:45
Speaker 4: office every day to have connection, to have productivity, to
18:48
Speaker 4: have innovation. Right, I think there is a really really
18:51
Speaker 4: happy place called hybrid or distributed work, and can we
18:55
Speaker 4: focus on getting like resetting up offices and how we
18:58
Speaker 4: work to work better. Danielle, you and I are connecting
19:01
Speaker 4: virtually right now. It works like there's no reason why
19:04
Speaker 4: us as humans can't be able to get things done
19:06
Speaker 4: in a variety of ways. You know, I.
19:09
Speaker 1: Agree, But I also here's my pushback, and feel free
19:13
Speaker 1: to debate me.
19:15
Speaker 2: Two things.
19:16
Speaker 1: One is when I do an interview in person, there
19:19
Speaker 1: is a difference. I do think I miss certain social
19:22
Speaker 1: cues and like I miss somebody crying one time virtually
19:26
Speaker 1: because I.
19:26
Speaker 2: Just see it.
19:27
Speaker 4: Of course seen, I.
19:28
Speaker 2: Would never miss that.
19:29
Speaker 1: But secondly, I'm ten years into my professional career at
19:35
Speaker 1: this point, at the very beginning, had I not had
19:39
Speaker 1: I remember what because I came to LA and I
19:42
Speaker 1: didn't have a place to work. That was probably for
19:45
Speaker 1: eight months. I got my first job where I went
19:47
Speaker 1: to an office every day, and it changed not just
19:50
Speaker 1: my work life, but my network, my social life. I
19:54
Speaker 1: think for people that are starting out in the workforce
19:57
Speaker 1: to not have an office or socialization is very difficult.
20:01
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would agree with that, and I actually think
20:03
Speaker 4: that again, how we work needs there needs to be
20:07
Speaker 4: variations of that. So for people who are earlier in
20:10
Speaker 4: their career, they need more access to their manager or
20:14
Speaker 4: their boss, and they need more contexts around something. You're
20:17
Speaker 4: ten years in your career, I can tell you what
20:19
Speaker 4: about X, Y Z, and we don't need to spend
20:21
Speaker 4: a whole lot of time on it because you know
20:22
Speaker 4: what that is. If you're brand new in your career,
20:24
Speaker 4: I need to be able to see and watch you
20:27
Speaker 4: work a little bit more and so how can you know. Again, like,
20:30
Speaker 4: not treating everyone the same is very important in this situation.
20:34
Speaker 4: So you're right. For the early career people, maybe they
20:38
Speaker 4: want to go to an office more often, so you
20:40
Speaker 4: know that when you're hiring for a role that's more
20:43
Speaker 4: entry level, you need that person to be located near
20:45
Speaker 4: an office. But that still doesn't change the fact that
20:48
Speaker 4: you know, how can you give them more access to
20:51
Speaker 4: their manader. There are also people, young people who get
20:53
Speaker 4: jobs going too a company and their manager's never there.
20:56
Speaker 4: Even if they're physically on the same floor, they never
20:59
Speaker 4: see them. I remember I never she was in meetings
21:02
Speaker 4: all day and never saw mamander. Did I know that
21:04
Speaker 4: her stuff was there? So I knew she showed up
21:06
Speaker 4: to work. So like you could also argue the flip
21:09
Speaker 4: side of this is like, right, okay, if we're going
21:11
Speaker 4: to do that, we still have to be intentional about
21:14
Speaker 4: how is this person going to have more access to
21:17
Speaker 4: learning from that manager and get more context and more
21:20
Speaker 4: training and that wasn't necessarily happening in an office before.
21:24
Speaker 4: It's a little bit less of like where you work
21:27
Speaker 4: and more important to focus on how we work.
21:29
Speaker 1: I can car, I think it's about making the time
21:32
Speaker 1: spent richer. So yes, yeah, I really hear what you're saying.
21:36
Speaker 1: I know you're a data person. Are there any markets
21:39
Speaker 1: that are showing growth for this year?
21:42
Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean so there's definitely people who are hiring.
21:45
Speaker 4: I mean, hospitality was coming back, and travel was coming back.
21:48
Speaker 4: Even some tech companies are hiring again. Like it's it's
21:52
Speaker 4: not like everything's gone away, but I think people are
21:55
Speaker 4: rethinking how teams are set up, and I think layoffs
21:59
Speaker 4: sometimes are sort of like a fresh start and then like,
22:02
Speaker 4: let's rebuild this thing. AI is an area where it's
22:05
Speaker 4: obviously growing, and it's changing every industry. So it's like,
22:09
Speaker 4: how can we get, you know, get more done with
22:12
Speaker 4: fewer resources aka sometimes people and expenses. And so media
22:17
Speaker 4: is a really tough place right now that that's not
22:19
Speaker 4: growing as much. But for example, maybe finance is growing
22:23
Speaker 4: a lot because they can use AI to help. But
22:26
Speaker 4: project management is another one that's always growing. Digital marketing
22:29
Speaker 4: is always growing. So those are like actual specific career
22:33
Speaker 4: types that you could go into. Obviously, nursing is always growing,
22:37
Speaker 4: nurse practitioners. I've seen a lot of that kind of stuff,
22:39
Speaker 4: So there's still stuff out there. I don't want to
22:42
Speaker 4: scare everybody, but it's just we're not in the lazy
22:45
Speaker 4: girl era and the quiet quitting era and the great
22:49
Speaker 4: resignation like that era that the book close on. That
22:53
Speaker 4: for sure.
22:54
Speaker 2: I don't love soft girl era. I like the idea
22:57
Speaker 2: of it.
22:57
Speaker 1: I know what people are saying, but I just don't
23:01
Speaker 1: think that's how you move forward in your career.
23:05
Speaker 4: I have an entire book on how to be proactive
23:08
Speaker 4: in your career, not reactive. Soft Girl era for me
23:11
Speaker 4: is being very reactive. It's kind of taking your foot
23:14
Speaker 4: off the gas pedal and saying I'm just waiting to
23:16
Speaker 4: see what comes my way. I'm like, maybe I'm too
23:19
Speaker 4: much of a control freak, but I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,
23:21
Speaker 4: don't don't do that. Look, we all have transition times
23:24
Speaker 4: in our life, or maybe our career is sort of
23:26
Speaker 4: like a thing that we've got to keep afloat, but
23:27
Speaker 4: it's not the number one thing. But you can't treat
23:30
Speaker 4: it like that all the time and then expect it
23:32
Speaker 4: to grow. So I'm much more of a fan of
23:34
Speaker 4: trying to figure out, like, what are sustainable practices for
23:38
Speaker 4: being proactive in your career. Networking is a big one, right,
23:42
Speaker 4: So people always ask me like, oh, I need a network.
23:44
Speaker 4: I'm like, let's see, that's the wrong mindset already, because
23:47
Speaker 4: a really good mind networker is just constantly trying to
23:50
Speaker 4: think about what are like cool people doing cool things
23:54
Speaker 4: that I can connect with and how is there any
23:56
Speaker 4: way that I can help? Like there, it's a mindset
23:59
Speaker 4: shift of like I'm interested in building relationships with people
24:02
Speaker 4: on an ongoing basis versus I need something and now
24:05
Speaker 4: I need to kick it into high gear with my
24:07
Speaker 4: networking efforts. Right, So there's one that's like much more sustainable,
24:11
Speaker 4: and it's kind of like a consistent thing that is
24:14
Speaker 4: constantly going versus the other thing where you're like, I'm
24:17
Speaker 4: gonna throw all my energy into this. And you know what,
24:19
Speaker 4: when you when you haven't been giving any energy to
24:22
Speaker 4: networking and then all of a sudden you throw all
24:24
Speaker 4: your energy into it, it's going to be disappointing because
24:26
Speaker 4: you might not get the results you want because it
24:28
Speaker 4: takes time. All the good things in your career takes time.
24:33
Speaker 1: I actually did a whole episode on networking called relationship
24:37
Speaker 1: building because I think we've coined it incorrect, and I'm
24:40
Speaker 1: totally with you.
24:41
Speaker 2: To me, it's about helping.
24:42
Speaker 1: It's not really about like selling yourself or like getting
24:45
Speaker 1: what you want.
24:46
Speaker 2: It's about adding value to that other person's life.
24:49
Speaker 1: When I was like prepping for this interview, I hadn't
24:52
Speaker 1: heard this statistic, but eighty five percent of jobs are
24:55
Speaker 1: filled via networking. So what do you think for somebody
25:00
Speaker 1: who's like Ooh, that word makes me cringe or that's
25:03
Speaker 1: just so not me.
25:04
Speaker 2: What's like a great first step.
25:07
Speaker 4: A first step for anybody would be like what is
25:10
Speaker 4: your learning goal? If you are trying to do some
25:12
Speaker 4: intentional networking, who are you looking for? Like, what's the
25:16
Speaker 4: goal that they can help you with. So I'll give
25:17
Speaker 4: you an example. If you're making a career transition, Oftentimes
25:21
Speaker 4: the people who are in your immediate network right now
25:23
Speaker 4: are probably not the ones that are going to be
25:25
Speaker 4: able to get you to whatever it is that you
25:27
Speaker 4: want to go next. So you're going to have to
25:29
Speaker 4: think about like, Okay, I'm transitioning into project management, and
25:33
Speaker 4: I'm really interested in these three industries here some specific
25:37
Speaker 4: companies within those industries, So you want to go out
25:40
Speaker 4: and find new people to connect with that are project
25:43
Speaker 4: managers that work in that industry or that company. They're
25:47
Speaker 4: kind of like bridge connections. They're bridging you to where
25:50
Speaker 4: you want to go next. Right, If you are wanting
25:53
Speaker 4: to stay in the same industry and you're like I
25:56
Speaker 4: just need to get a new job, or like I
25:57
Speaker 4: want to do the same job, I just need a
25:59
Speaker 4: new industry, then maybe your current network can help you, Right,
26:03
Speaker 4: knowing your learning goal helps you with that first step
26:06
Speaker 4: of like, Okay, I want to stay here, so then
26:07
Speaker 4: who do I know who might be able to help
26:09
Speaker 4: connect me to somebody who I can learn from. I
26:12
Speaker 4: think that another trick with networking is not to go
26:15
Speaker 4: about it with the approach of I need a job,
26:18
Speaker 4: can you get me a job? It's I'm here to
26:21
Speaker 4: learn about you, know what you do, how you got there,
26:24
Speaker 4: see if I can add value to you in any way.
26:26
Speaker 4: I used to have this rule where I said, like,
26:29
Speaker 4: you shouldn't make any networking ask for the first year
26:31
Speaker 4: of a new relationship. I do think a year is
26:34
Speaker 4: a very long time for people, so I've shortened that
26:36
Speaker 4: to like six months. But I think that's also really important.
26:39
Speaker 4: But the reason why eighty five percent of jobs are
26:41
Speaker 4: filled via networking is because relationships are how you build
26:47
Speaker 4: that connection with other people, and it's people who are
26:50
Speaker 4: hiring people at the end of the day. So yes,
26:51
Speaker 4: it's important that you have the qualifications, but how are
26:54
Speaker 4: we going to make sure that we understand the context
26:57
Speaker 4: of what you're doing? Right? So you can just send
26:59
Speaker 4: your resume in and I always tell people you haven't
27:01
Speaker 4: finished applying because it's really important that you send your
27:03
Speaker 4: resume directly to a real person. Well how are you?
27:06
Speaker 4: That's networking. If you've connected with someone that that company already,
27:09
Speaker 4: you can send it to them and say, I've recently
27:11
Speaker 4: applied for this job. Would you be able to refer me?
27:14
Speaker 4: Or maybe can you send this to the hiring manager directly.
27:17
Speaker 4: That's the hidden job market. That is why they say
27:20
Speaker 4: most jobs are billed via networking because of what we
27:23
Speaker 4: just talked about. So to get started, you have to
27:25
Speaker 4: build relationships and then they have to be strong enough
27:28
Speaker 4: to a place there you can ask them for a
27:30
Speaker 4: favor in that way, like a referral, a totally forward
27:33
Speaker 4: that kind of thing.
27:34
Speaker 1: I always think people are wanting to help too, So
27:37
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in the cold email. But I
27:39
Speaker 1: was thinking about this the other day, just to build
27:41
Speaker 1: on what you were saying. A friend of mine was like, Yeah,
27:44
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get a job at X company and
27:48
Speaker 1: I just I don't know where to start, Like I
27:50
Speaker 1: keep sending my resume and it's like not getting me anywhere.
27:53
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know what, that building is
27:55
Speaker 1: made up of a bunch of people. Yeah, institution are
28:00
Speaker 1: just a bunch of people in a building, so you
28:03
Speaker 1: have to get to the people. And that's me So
28:06
Speaker 1: I totally believe yeah saying I agree.
28:13
Speaker 3: Can you guess the number one most common complaint after
28:16
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28:20
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28:24
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28:29
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28:34
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28:37
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28:42
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28:53
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28:57
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29:00
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29:45
Speaker 2: Everything is not a game. It's a game changer. Okay.
29:52
Speaker 1: So I have heard a lot of my friends personally
29:56
Speaker 1: talk about transitioning getting a new job, and you know,
30:00
Speaker 1: I'm a girl who loves questions. So I want to
30:03
Speaker 1: ask you one or two questions that you think someone
30:06
Speaker 1: can be asking themselves if they're feeling like a little
30:11
Speaker 1: frustrated or like they want to make a shift. I
30:13
Speaker 1: don't necessarily want to call it like how do I
30:15
Speaker 1: find my purpose? Because I think that's like the overarching
30:19
Speaker 1: big question that we're all sort of asking.
30:22
Speaker 2: But how do I get to know what would really
30:25
Speaker 2: be a great fit for me?
30:26
Speaker 4: Next? Yeah, if it's helpful. I know there's a phrase
30:30
Speaker 4: about finding your passion that drives everyone nuts because you're like,
30:33
Speaker 4: but I'm multi passionate. I care about a lot of things.
30:36
Speaker 4: So what I tell people that says, I'm like, what
30:38
Speaker 4: energizes you the most? At work? Where do you get
30:41
Speaker 4: the most energy for something and you're successful at it.
30:43
Speaker 4: So if you're thinking about a career transition, maybe spend
30:48
Speaker 4: the next two weeks kind of jotting down the times
30:51
Speaker 4: where you're really energized at work. Like I loved being
30:54
Speaker 4: able to get on a call with a client. I felt,
30:56
Speaker 4: you know, I was excited for that phone call, whereas
30:58
Speaker 4: like this project was really draining or and not necessarily
31:02
Speaker 4: like task because like, yeah, making a PowerPoint presentation is
31:05
Speaker 4: really draining on everybody, but like sometimes you have to
31:08
Speaker 4: do that part of work, but like what part do
31:10
Speaker 4: you actually enjoy? When I wanted to make a career transition,
31:13
Speaker 4: I got a random assignment to do recruiting, which is
31:16
Speaker 4: very different for universities. They're recruiting community colleges to transfer
31:20
Speaker 4: to a four year university, but they called it recruiting.
31:23
Speaker 4: And I was like, this is really energizing because I
31:26
Speaker 4: really like to help people. It's the thing that kind
31:28
Speaker 4: of makes me tick. It's why I thought I wanted
31:29
Speaker 4: to be a teacher when I was in college. And
31:32
Speaker 4: so following that breadcrumb of like, okay, this thing's called recruiting,
31:38
Speaker 4: I like to help people. So then I followed that
31:41
Speaker 4: bread crumb, and then I was like, I'm really energized
31:43
Speaker 4: by this. I'm also really good at it. So what
31:45
Speaker 4: careers use this type of quality or strength that I have. Okay, teaching,
31:49
Speaker 4: I don't really want to do. That could have been
31:51
Speaker 4: like an academic advisor, they sorted that could have been
31:53
Speaker 4: like a counselor you know, YadA YadA YadA. But recruiting
31:57
Speaker 4: was the reason why I connected the dots with that one.
31:59
Speaker 4: I kind of got the idea from the random assignment.
32:01
Speaker 4: But I in college loved going to the career center.
32:05
Speaker 4: I was obsessed with trying to figure out a job,
32:07
Speaker 4: and so I was kind of mixing these two things.
32:10
Speaker 4: I was really interested in, like career stuff. I really
32:13
Speaker 4: liked helping people. And then it brought me to the
32:17
Speaker 4: career of recruiting. And then once I found that, I
32:20
Speaker 4: started to go deeper into like what types of recruiting,
32:23
Speaker 4: what companies have recruiting, what is it called there, what
32:25
Speaker 4: does it look like there. It took me to almost
32:28
Speaker 4: two full years of all this exploration, having informational interviews,
32:32
Speaker 4: but all of that, and it doesn't have to take
32:33
Speaker 4: that long for you, but all of that helped me
32:36
Speaker 4: narrow it down to I want to be a university
32:38
Speaker 4: recruiter and I want to work at a technolguey. That's
32:40
Speaker 4: how clear I got with it. You don't even have
32:43
Speaker 4: to necessarily be that clear. But for me, I think
32:45
Speaker 4: because I was so miserable in the job I had,
32:48
Speaker 4: I was so afraid of doing all this work and
32:51
Speaker 4: then ending up in a place where I was unhappy again,
32:53
Speaker 4: and so that was really important to me. And I
32:55
Speaker 4: always tell the story of People are always like, well,
32:58
Speaker 4: how did you get there? I'm like, well, I basically
33:00
Speaker 4: used informational interviews. I sent over seventy cold connection requests
33:05
Speaker 4: on LinkedIn to recruiters to try to learn more about recruiting,
33:08
Speaker 4: and only thirty of them got back to me. That's
33:10
Speaker 4: a less than fifty percent acceptance rate. But I share
33:13
Speaker 4: that because you're going to get a lot of no's
33:15
Speaker 4: when you're doing cold networking. That's that's natural. It has
33:18
Speaker 4: nothing personal about you. And I always tell people, I'm like,
33:21
Speaker 4: if someone who didn't even read your email has that
33:23
Speaker 4: much power over you, being like, well, I'm not even
33:25
Speaker 4: worth it. They won't respond to me, then we need
33:27
Speaker 4: to move on. Don't spend your time on that there
33:29
Speaker 4: are other people to network then to your point that
33:31
Speaker 4: do want to help and you can learn a lot
33:33
Speaker 4: from them.
33:33
Speaker 1: That was actually maybe my favorite part of this conversation
33:36
Speaker 1: so far, because it was so clear the idea of breadcrumbing,
33:40
Speaker 1: Like it's almost like if we made it spiritual, it's like,
33:42
Speaker 1: listen to the whispers and go just the next right thing.
33:46
Speaker 2: You don't have to do a ten year plan necessarily.
33:49
Speaker 4: And you know what I tell people, I'm like, I
33:51
Speaker 4: got this advice early on, and I hold on to
33:53
Speaker 4: it a lot, which is like, be really clear and
33:56
Speaker 4: like unwavering and what you want your end goal to be,
34:00
Speaker 4: but flexible in the path of getting there because it
34:03
Speaker 4: could be something that you don't even know exists. Right.
34:06
Speaker 4: I've heard this advice a lot where someone will be like,
34:08
Speaker 4: it's gonna end up in a way that you can't
34:10
Speaker 4: even imagine right now, And isn't that a good thing?
34:12
Speaker 4: Like would you want the only options for your future
34:15
Speaker 4: to be the ones that you can think of right now?
34:17
Speaker 4: Of course not now, not to get all Lulu, but
34:20
Speaker 4: is the universe going to make it that easy for you? No,
34:22
Speaker 4: You're probably gonna have to work a little harder at
34:25
Speaker 4: it and just like you know, coming to you. But
34:28
Speaker 4: that's okay, and that's like actually a good thing because
34:32
Speaker 4: it's this or something better, like something better it could
34:34
Speaker 4: be out there that you.
34:35
Speaker 1: Don't even know about this or something better is written
34:38
Speaker 1: on my whiteboard over there.
34:40
Speaker 4: Yeah. I learned that from Marnie. She heard it on
34:42
Speaker 4: a podcast and she told me and I was like,
34:44
Speaker 4: I'm obsessed with this my podcast.
34:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, because.
34:50
Speaker 1: It was Gabby Bernstein's episode and it blew. I got
34:54
Speaker 1: so many messages about it because it was like, oh
34:56
Speaker 1: my god, that we've been all thinking, we've been thinking about.
34:59
Speaker 2: That all wrong.
35:00
Speaker 1: Like what I dream for myself is actually maybe too small.
35:04
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna do some more like rapid fire actionable
35:06
Speaker 1: advice with you. Okay, So okay, AI.
35:11
Speaker 2: I love AI.
35:12
Speaker 1: Actually I think of it very positively. Can you give
35:16
Speaker 1: us a crash course in how you think we can
35:19
Speaker 1: use AI to prep for interviews, write cover letters, even
35:22
Speaker 1: find a new gig.
35:24
Speaker 4: Yeah. First of all, you can find everything I'm about
35:26
Speaker 4: to say on the Career Contessa website. But the AI
35:29
Speaker 4: think of that's the most common is chat GPT. You
35:32
Speaker 4: can use chat GPT to help rewrite bullet points, using
35:36
Speaker 4: prompts to say, turn this bullet point into an achievement,
35:39
Speaker 4: or give me an example an achievement. You could put
35:41
Speaker 4: in the job description and write a prompt of like,
35:44
Speaker 4: write me a resume bullet point achievement using this job description,
35:48
Speaker 4: copy and paste the job description. So I'm with you,
35:50
Speaker 4: I love AI. That's how you can use chat GPT
35:53
Speaker 4: to kind of edit a resume, and you can use
35:55
Speaker 4: it to help prepare for an interview, where you could
35:57
Speaker 4: type in on the prompt of, like me a list
36:00
Speaker 4: of interview questions that might be asked for this job,
36:03
Speaker 4: and then copy and paste that job description. You can
36:05
Speaker 4: ask it to write a first draft, like copy and
36:08
Speaker 4: paste your resume, put into chat GPT, and then say,
36:11
Speaker 4: write me a first draft of a cover letter using
36:13
Speaker 4: this job description. And it's able to do all that.
36:16
Speaker 4: And what I tell people is, I'm like AI should
36:18
Speaker 4: be a compliment, not a replacement to whatever work you're doing.
36:22
Speaker 4: So do your first round of everything, or if you're
36:25
Speaker 4: going to have it, do a first round for you.
36:27
Speaker 4: Use that as a starting point. But don't say chat
36:30
Speaker 4: GBT make me a resume and then hand that resume,
36:32
Speaker 4: and you would never want to do that. The other
36:33
Speaker 4: thing is there's some amazing AI tools, So I use
36:36
Speaker 4: Grammarly a lot. Grammarly helps me be a better writer,
36:40
Speaker 4: write better emails. So you can use AI tools to
36:43
Speaker 4: just help you kind of in your job search. And
36:46
Speaker 4: then there's other AI tools that I really like, like
36:48
Speaker 4: job scan and resume worded, so you can basically upload
36:52
Speaker 4: your resume and use a job description and it will
36:54
Speaker 4: tell you like, Okay, your resume has this many like
36:58
Speaker 4: keywords in it and it's it's a ninety nine percent
37:01
Speaker 4: match for this job. And if not, it will tell
37:03
Speaker 4: you will basically give you a score and let you
37:04
Speaker 4: know like, Okay, you need to keep working on this
37:06
Speaker 4: resume and tailor it a little bit more. It's not
37:09
Speaker 4: quite tailored enough for this specific job. And the thing
37:11
Speaker 4: about resumes is we all know and the reason why
37:13
Speaker 4: people hate them is there they feel like, oh my gosh,
37:15
Speaker 4: I have to write a new resume every single time. No,
37:18
Speaker 4: have a master resume that has everything on it and
37:21
Speaker 4: then tailor it for the specific job and company that
37:25
Speaker 4: you're applying for.
37:26
Speaker 1: Wait, have a master resume and then tailor it for
37:30
Speaker 1: the specific job.
37:31
Speaker 2: I really like that.
37:33
Speaker 4: Yeah, So like for me, I have like long to
37:36
Speaker 4: go to a master. But then if I'm applying for
37:38
Speaker 4: the recruiting coordinator job at Hulu, I'll create, I'll say,
37:42
Speaker 4: a new version. It will be my Hulu recruiting coordinator version,
37:45
Speaker 4: and I will take out anything that's not relevant to them.
37:48
Speaker 4: I will maybe rewrite some of my bullet points to
37:51
Speaker 4: use keywords and phrases that they put in their job hosting.
37:54
Speaker 4: For example, when I was at the university, I was
37:58
Speaker 4: working with a student population, but in recruiting it's called
38:01
Speaker 4: a candidate candidate experience. Right, So even doing like a
38:04
Speaker 4: quick swap of instead of using the word students, saying
38:07
Speaker 4: candidate works right, And so it's it's those kind of
38:11
Speaker 4: like micro tweaks that actually help a lot. But start
38:14
Speaker 4: with the master. David Fano and his company is called Teal,
38:17
Speaker 4: which is another great tool to create a resume and
38:19
Speaker 4: uses AI. But he has this phrase, I love reesays,
38:22
Speaker 4: show the ten percent of you that that is one
38:25
Speaker 4: hundred percent relevant to the company and job that you're
38:27
Speaker 4: applying for. Which is why I say start with your
38:29
Speaker 4: master and start taking a bunch of it away to Taylor,
38:32
Speaker 4: because they don't care about most of your experience. They
38:34
Speaker 4: only care about what is applicable and relevant.
38:37
Speaker 2: To them, right and using those industry buzzwords.
38:40
Speaker 4: Yep, keywords, key phrases, software, anything like that.
38:44
Speaker 1: I want to share one thing I learned. I went
38:46
Speaker 1: to like the one of the largest tech conferences in
38:50
Speaker 1: the world in Toronto this past year, and I got
38:53
Speaker 1: to interview Marquez Brownlee, who's he's probably like the number
38:57
Speaker 1: one tech YouTuber in the world. He's a lovely person
39:01
Speaker 1: and super smart, but if you look at his YouTube,
39:04
Speaker 1: it's like the engagement is wild.
39:06
Speaker 2: People are obsessed with him.
39:07
Speaker 1: And I off camera, was like, I'm just getting into
39:10
Speaker 1: chat GPT, like, do you have any tips for how
39:13
Speaker 1: to use it more efficiently?
39:15
Speaker 2: And he taught me something that changed the game for me.
39:17
Speaker 1: So if you say, write me a resume using this
39:21
Speaker 1: job description, if you add in the style of Blink,
39:25
Speaker 1: so for me, I can write in the style of
39:27
Speaker 1: Oprah and it'll change the whole thing, Versus if I
39:31
Speaker 1: say in the style of Gabby Bernstein, in the style
39:35
Speaker 1: of Lauren mcgodwin, and so it'll change the whole tone,
39:39
Speaker 1: the voice, the words, et cetera. And so that's been
39:41
Speaker 1: super helpful for me.
39:43
Speaker 4: So I've also will tell chat GPT the tone I want.
39:46
Speaker 4: I'll say, do this thing in a conversational tone. So
39:49
Speaker 4: for me, I think that's also that's a good point
39:51
Speaker 4: because resume bullets sometimes are very jargon me and so
39:55
Speaker 4: sometimes I'll say, like it will give me the bullet point,
39:57
Speaker 4: and then I'll say, rewrite these in a conversation tone
40:00
Speaker 4: because I need them in playing English. Like. That's also
40:04
Speaker 4: a big challenge I think with the resumes is they're
40:06
Speaker 4: so jargoning these days that sometimes you're like playing simple English. Please.
40:11
Speaker 2: Okay, what is your all time best salary negotiation tip?
40:15
Speaker 4: Okay? So, now that we have salary transparency laws, something
40:19
Speaker 4: I really love. If you are applying to a company
40:22
Speaker 4: that has that, that means that they will put the
40:24
Speaker 4: range usually in the job description. I'm a huge fan
40:27
Speaker 4: of that. I think even companies that are not mandated
40:30
Speaker 4: to do that should do that. But let's just say
40:31
Speaker 4: they say this job pays between eighty thousand and one
40:34
Speaker 4: hundred thousand. I think that we should start normalizing you.
40:38
Speaker 4: You saying in the very first interview I saw, the
40:40
Speaker 4: salary range is eighty two one hundred thousand. Tell me
40:43
Speaker 4: what a one hundred thousand dollars candidate looks like, and
40:45
Speaker 4: what an eighty thousand dollars candidate looks like. And then
40:48
Speaker 4: whatever language they tell you, you can use that same
40:51
Speaker 4: language in your negotiation. Let's say they may do an
40:54
Speaker 4: offer at ninety. You can be like, you know, thanks
40:56
Speaker 4: so much, I'm really excited about this role. You know,
40:58
Speaker 4: when I was asking you about one hundred, that was
41:00
Speaker 4: the differentiated them. You told me, x y z, here's
41:03
Speaker 4: how my experience. I have experience in x y Z,
41:06
Speaker 4: and I wanted to reiterate, therefore, would the company consider
41:10
Speaker 4: one hundred thousand dollars salary? It's really important to say
41:12
Speaker 4: would the company consider, and not just would you consider,
41:15
Speaker 4: because we don't want to make it personal. It's about
41:17
Speaker 4: the company doing it, not the recruiter, and then also
41:20
Speaker 4: basically taking their advice in the very first interview and
41:23
Speaker 4: then reusing it in the negotiation later on.
41:25
Speaker 2: That's great.
41:27
Speaker 1: How do you in an interview, speaking of how do
41:30
Speaker 1: you spot a toxic workplace?
41:33
Speaker 2: Why interview?
41:35
Speaker 4: I think the interview experience tells you a lot. You know,
41:37
Speaker 4: do they get back to you in a timely manner,
41:40
Speaker 4: or do they do the thing where they don't get
41:41
Speaker 4: back to you, and then they email you and they're like,
41:43
Speaker 4: can you get on the phone in the next ten minutes. Right,
41:45
Speaker 4: that's how they're going to treat you when you're at work,
41:47
Speaker 4: asking them questions about their culture, what's your calendar look like?
41:51
Speaker 4: How are mistakes handled here? Like, there's a lot of
41:53
Speaker 4: interview questions that you can ask because you're interviewing them
41:56
Speaker 4: as much as they're interviewing you to learn about it.
41:59
Speaker 4: So we're in a tough job market. It would be
42:01
Speaker 4: a very big red flag for me that even if
42:03
Speaker 4: we're in a tough job market, for them to almost
42:05
Speaker 4: be like gaslighting you about negotiating. I can't believe you're negotiating,
42:10
Speaker 4: Like you're lucky you even got an offer in this
42:11
Speaker 4: job market, like stuff like that I've heard of, And
42:14
Speaker 4: I'm like, that doesn't change the fact that people should
42:17
Speaker 4: be paid a market rate, you know, the appropriate market rate.
42:20
Speaker 4: And if they really push back on you negotiating, that
42:23
Speaker 4: means anytime you negotiate anything in your career or the
42:26
Speaker 4: job that you're there for it they're potentially going to
42:28
Speaker 4: push back on. So I always tell people and like,
42:31
Speaker 4: it is so much better to know these things up
42:33
Speaker 4: front and basically say, you know, I really appreciated this
42:36
Speaker 4: interview process because you don't want to burn bridges, but
42:39
Speaker 4: basically say like I don't think I'm a fit for
42:41
Speaker 4: this particular role. That recruiter might go somewhere else too,
42:44
Speaker 4: So that's something I think about too. It's like, Okay,
42:47
Speaker 4: what's the interview process? Like are they even able to
42:50
Speaker 4: answer some of your questions. Sometimes you'll hear people say
42:53
Speaker 4: I got interviewed for this job and the job was
42:55
Speaker 4: totally different once I got there in person, And it's
42:58
Speaker 4: not that they didn't ask those questions. They did, and
43:01
Speaker 4: in hindsight they look back and they're like, yeah, they
43:03
Speaker 4: were a little like fuzzy on exactly what it was
43:05
Speaker 4: or what it is that they needed. Again, that's a sign.
43:08
Speaker 4: Sometimes we ignore the science, and it happens to all
43:10
Speaker 4: of us, and sometimes we don't and we say, I
43:13
Speaker 4: got to take myself out of this job interview process
43:15
Speaker 4: because it's not going to go well.
43:18
Speaker 1: When you said that, I thought about my own personal experience.
43:20
Speaker 1: I got hired for a job one time and my
43:24
Speaker 1: agent was negotiating something and the guy who hired me,
43:28
Speaker 1: who was the boss, told everyone on staff. I was
43:31
Speaker 1: a diva because I was trying to negotiate and I
43:37
Speaker 1: should have taken that as a sign and I didn't
43:39
Speaker 1: know enough. I was young, but that's how I was
43:42
Speaker 1: treated the whole time.
43:43
Speaker 4: Like everything you're asking for is unreasonable.
43:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, And so that is such poignant advice.
43:51
Speaker 4: And you know what, in the moment is very especially
43:54
Speaker 4: again in a tough job market, when you've been job
43:56
Speaker 4: searching for a while, it is so hard to yourself
44:00
Speaker 4: out of the running or to be so honest with
44:02
Speaker 4: yourself to see it. And that's why I think also
44:05
Speaker 4: in job searches, it's really important either have a career
44:07
Speaker 4: coach or have like a job search buddy, somebody who
44:10
Speaker 4: isn't maybe as emotional about it as you, but can
44:13
Speaker 4: also give you feedback and say to you like, hey, Danielle,
44:17
Speaker 4: like is that weird to you at all? Like have
44:19
Speaker 4: you thought about this? Like obviously not everyone's going to
44:21
Speaker 4: be comfortable maybe giving you that advice, but just again,
44:24
Speaker 4: I think job search support or community is really important
44:28
Speaker 4: as well, because job searches are hard and they make
44:31
Speaker 4: you question yourself like nothing ever, like it's so crazy.
44:34
Speaker 4: I'm like, wow, nothing cuts you off at the kneecaps
44:36
Speaker 4: quite like a job search.
44:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, really really does eat at your confidence.
44:42
Speaker 4: Yeah, we can for sure.
44:44
Speaker 1: Speaking of questions, you led me into my next question.
44:47
Speaker 1: So at the end of an interview, the last thing
44:50
Speaker 1: I've always heard everybody say is do you have any
44:53
Speaker 1: questions for me? As somebody who is I would consider
44:57
Speaker 1: myself a professional asker of questions, I'm always like huh,
45:04
Speaker 1: and I really try and tailor them to the person
45:06
Speaker 1: I'm talking to.
45:07
Speaker 2: But do you have one or two that you think
45:09
Speaker 2: are like at least a good baseline to throw out?
45:13
Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean I think it goes back to also
45:16
Speaker 4: what's really important to you in a career. So for me,
45:19
Speaker 4: like flexibility would be really important, So I might ask
45:22
Speaker 4: some questions about, like, give me an example of how
45:26
Speaker 4: the team manages schedules here, what does the calendar look
45:29
Speaker 4: like on this team? What happens when Selm makes mistakes? Like,
45:33
Speaker 4: I'm looking to work in a transparent environment that also
45:37
Speaker 4: values flexibility and people having lives outside of work, So
45:40
Speaker 4: I would just like specifically ask some questions related to that.
45:44
Speaker 4: But one of the things I think that hurts people
45:45
Speaker 4: is that they don't put any thought into those questions,
45:48
Speaker 4: so they're just like on the spot thinking that they're
45:50
Speaker 4: going to ask something really good there. I write about
45:53
Speaker 4: this stuff on LinkedIn. We have articles on curtain Test
45:56
Speaker 4: that we have tons. Like I'm not saying ask every
45:58
Speaker 4: single question that we have on the list, but go
46:01
Speaker 4: through these lists and you'll start to see like, Okay,
46:03
Speaker 4: I had a terrible boss before, so I really want
46:06
Speaker 4: to make sure that I have a manager that gives feedback.
46:09
Speaker 4: So the question you might ask is like, tell me
46:12
Speaker 4: about a time when you've had to give feedback to
46:14
Speaker 4: someone on something that was like maybe not crystal clear
46:17
Speaker 4: or maybe not such a black and white issue. How
46:19
Speaker 4: do you go about it? How often do you give
46:20
Speaker 4: feedback or so the best questions to ask are the
46:24
Speaker 4: ones that are going to give you clarity on the
46:25
Speaker 4: things that are really important to you. And you know,
46:29
Speaker 4: just pulling this back to the very first question of
46:31
Speaker 4: like what makes people fulfilled in a career, it's unique
46:34
Speaker 4: to everybody. Early on in your career, you're like, I'm
46:37
Speaker 4: cool working eighty hours a week because you really are excited.
46:40
Speaker 4: But then you become a parent and you're like, there's
46:42
Speaker 4: no way I want to work more than forty hours
46:44
Speaker 4: a week because I just simply don't or I don't
46:46
Speaker 4: want to be penalized every time I leave early to
46:48
Speaker 4: go pick up my kid from school. You know. So
46:51
Speaker 4: the best things that you can do is like really
46:54
Speaker 4: give some time and energy into like, Okay, here's my
46:56
Speaker 4: ultimate wish list, but what are the top three things
46:59
Speaker 4: on that list? What are the things I really want
47:01
Speaker 4: to do? Because then you can tailor your questions to
47:03
Speaker 4: ask really good questions at the end. The reason why
47:05
Speaker 4: everyone asks do you have any questions for me? Is
47:08
Speaker 4: also it's an opportunity for you to show off all
47:11
Speaker 4: the prep work that you've done. This is your time
47:13
Speaker 4: to add the context with question. You know, Danielle, I
47:16
Speaker 4: researched your show and want you where you started your career.
47:18
Speaker 4: It's really exciting to me because I started my career
47:21
Speaker 4: in a similar way. You've now created a commonality and
47:23
Speaker 4: emotional connection. You showed off your prep work, and now
47:26
Speaker 4: you get to ask your question.
47:27
Speaker 1: You're right, it is a way to show off. Like
47:29
Speaker 1: I always say, the most interesting thing is to be interested,
47:32
Speaker 1: and that's the moment to do it. In an interview,
47:34
Speaker 1: I have like two main takeaways from our conversation so
47:37
Speaker 1: far in a more like broad zoomed out way. And
47:40
Speaker 1: one is real intentionality, so getting clear before you start
47:45
Speaker 1: any interview process with what's important to you. And then secondly,
47:50
Speaker 1: there's this great George Clooney story that I love and
47:53
Speaker 1: he'll tell it way better than me. But to paraphrase,
47:56
Speaker 1: it's like he would do all of these auditions and
48:00
Speaker 1: he wasn't really getting anywhere, and he one.
48:03
Speaker 2: Day thought, I'm actually a really good actor.
48:07
Speaker 1: And so if I go into these auditions and I
48:09
Speaker 1: think I'm actually doing them a favor by showing up
48:13
Speaker 1: on time, doing well, doing my job, so it's fulless
48:17
Speaker 1: et cetera, Like I'm actually adding value to their lives.
48:20
Speaker 1: He was like, that's when I started booking roles, and
48:22
Speaker 1: there's this mindset shift.
48:24
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm.
48:25
Speaker 1: Hearing from you too, is that in these interviews, it's
48:27
Speaker 1: not so much do they want me? It's is this
48:30
Speaker 1: a good match for us?
48:31
Speaker 4: Yeah? Ultimately it has to be a good match for
48:34
Speaker 4: both people. Otherwise, you know, you take yourself wherever you go,
48:37
Speaker 4: and so if it's totally misaligned with that team and
48:40
Speaker 4: that boss, then yeah, it's not going to be a
48:43
Speaker 4: pleasant experience and this woman I had on my podcast
48:46
Speaker 4: the other day. I was like, yeah, people always think
48:47
Speaker 4: like the grass is always green or somewhere else, and
48:49
Speaker 4: she was like, the grass is green wherever you water it.
48:52
Speaker 4: So I understand the sentiment of like, you know, invest
48:55
Speaker 4: in your career and again kind of have that agency,
48:59
Speaker 4: but also so give yourself the best shot at being
49:02
Speaker 4: successful with the foundation that aligns with you as well.
49:06
Speaker 1: Okay, I always end with a little rapid fire. Okay,
49:09
Speaker 1: what's an easy way to win at work that you
49:11
Speaker 1: think enough people aren't taking advantage of.
49:14
Speaker 4: I think sending a recap email to your boss at
49:17
Speaker 4: the end of the week here's what I'm working on,
49:19
Speaker 4: or here's what I got done, here's what I'm working
49:21
Speaker 4: on next week is super easy. They don't have to
49:23
Speaker 4: respond and it actually works as like a paper trail
49:26
Speaker 4: for you. That's so good.
49:28
Speaker 2: Okay, this is like an advice one. This is not
49:31
Speaker 2: coming from me.
49:31
Speaker 1: By the way, my boss thinks we're best friends and
49:34
Speaker 1: has problems with boundaries. How can I get them to
49:37
Speaker 1: respect my boundaries without making them feel uncomfortable and compromising
49:41
Speaker 1: my job?
49:42
Speaker 4: I think with setting boundaries, it's not like a one
49:46
Speaker 4: and done situation. It's like micro edits and changes to behaviors,
49:50
Speaker 4: communications styles that basically you have to reteach them where
49:54
Speaker 4: the boundaries are. So sorry to say, it's going to
49:57
Speaker 4: take some time and it's going to be hard.
50:00
Speaker 2: Really hard.
50:01
Speaker 1: Okay, if not for career contessa, what's the job you
50:04
Speaker 1: could easily see yourself doing.
50:06
Speaker 4: I would love to be in like an adjunct college professor.
50:09
Speaker 4: I think that would have been really fun. Or interior designer.
50:13
Speaker 4: My instagram is just curiated with all the pretty things,
50:17
Speaker 4: so I think that would be really fun, or something
50:19
Speaker 4: like in real estate.
50:20
Speaker 2: What's a piece of advice you think all driven women
50:23
Speaker 2: need to hear?
50:24
Speaker 4: It's this or something better. I'm obsessed with this phrase. Yes.
50:28
Speaker 2: What is something that you consider the biggest waste of time?
50:33
Speaker 4: Oh? I hate We've seen time and money, so like
50:38
Speaker 4: commuting to something in person when I could do it virtually.
50:41
Speaker 4: That I hate that.
50:43
Speaker 1: What's a piece of media that you've consumed that changed
50:46
Speaker 1: the way you thought?
50:47
Speaker 4: Oh? I followed this woman glucose goddess on Instagram and
50:52
Speaker 4: it's all about glucose spikes and food and anyway. It's
50:56
Speaker 4: really fascinating to me because it's not just about like
50:59
Speaker 4: eat this, it's not about counting calories. It's truly learning
51:01
Speaker 4: about like influmin and glucose, and that's been really interesting
51:05
Speaker 4: to me. So glucos Goddess on Instagram.
51:07
Speaker 1: What's a book that you've read that changed your life,
51:10
Speaker 1: something that you think everybody should read.
51:12
Speaker 4: Oh, Atomic Habits, hands down. Yeah, I agree.
51:17
Speaker 1: Okay, we do a smart question everything question every week,
51:20
Speaker 1: So tell me when to stop.
51:23
Speaker 4: Okay, stop one.
51:24
Speaker 2: Thing you are trying to or need to let.
51:26
Speaker 4: Go of control, perfectionism. I have two kids under the
51:30
Speaker 4: age of two, and so kids are also like the
51:32
Speaker 4: extreme lesson of like you cannot control everything, but I
51:36
Speaker 4: really need to like be able to deal with the
51:39
Speaker 4: messy a little bit better.
51:41
Speaker 1: Lauren, career can Tessa, what is the smartest decision you've
51:45
Speaker 1: ever made?
51:46
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, I mean probably picking a supportive partner, like
51:51
Speaker 4: in hindsight that was like a big life decision that
51:54
Speaker 4: was also a career decision and a wellness decision and
51:58
Speaker 4: all the other things. So probably picking a good partner.
52:02
Speaker 2: Thank you, it was so fun talking to you. Okay,
52:10
Speaker 2: you know what time it is.
52:11
Speaker 1: Today's a good day to have a good day.
52:14
Speaker 2: I'll see you next week.