Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / A Marathon a day for 100 days straight! Kate Jayden

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A Marathon a day for 100 days straight! Kate Jayden · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: They have a niche specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: So check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And today's guest on the Financial Planet Live podcast is Kate Jade.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: First off, Kate is an absolute superhero.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: She's currently in the process of running a marathon a day for 100 days straight.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And on the recording of this podcast, she was on day 77, which is mind-blowing.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this incredible challenge is to raise awareness of UK food poverty, UK hygiene poverty, and to encourage people to support refugees.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Challenging perceptions around what poverty actually means and encouraging dialogue around the refugee situation across the globe has become more prevalent than ever with the situation in Ukraine now at the forefront of the media and our attention.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Kate says that there are 2,600 miles or 100 marathons a Syrian refugee has to take from Aleppo to Dover.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So imagine having to do that.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Kate is doing it and she's doing an amazing job to raise money for some amazing charities.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: The Refugee Council, the UK Food Bank Charity, Trustle Trust, and the Hygiene Bank Charity.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: And secondly, Kate is a compliance officer.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And today she talks to us about her career within compliance.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: She actually started out as a financial advisor and moved across into compliance.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: We also talk about some of the challenges that she's faced in her career with an ADHD diagnosis and autism, but also how these diagnoses have helped her become an amazing compliance officer.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I do hope you enjoy this podcast.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Kate, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I know how incredibly busy you are and probably how incredibly tired you are.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: How many marathons back to back are you running?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm running 100 marathons in 100 days for charity.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And which marathon are you on right now?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, as soon as I ship the laptop lead tonight, it will be number 77.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: 77.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So 77 marathons already, and you're running 100 back to back.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: That is incredible.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I can forgive you for being sat in bed right now with your laptop.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because I literally just did, I was like, hmm, okay, I have four hours of sleep if I uh just basically open the laptop load.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that to be kept to be fair, Kate, that is absolutely amazing.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've won run one marathon in my life.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that was in about five hours.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you just told me just before we got on the uh recording that around what was it, number 20, day 21, you would what was your fastest time?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my fastest time was three hours 34 on day 21.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's um, yeah.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the the first six weeks I was happily cruising along with like under four hours every day, basically.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just comfortable, you know.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was running at a pace and that at at the uh the sort of times that were comfortable at the time, but then yeah, the spanner got thrown firmly in the works.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: What was the spanner?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, on day 26, I um trapped my SI joint, which for those that don't know, is basically the very bottom of your back.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it took me a week to twig what had happened, got that sorted, and of course it's just a cycle of things.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So then it was puriformis and the glue, and by day 44, um I then had an issue with my IT bun that's trapped to my knee.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it means that I basically look now like a tin man who's been sent out to sea to drink rum for two weeks.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, right, okay.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is the only way to describe my uh current running style.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh yeah, or I look like I've been running with smarty tubes on my legs or something.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh mate, the pain you're going through to do this.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm you you came up on my radar because my business partner, Stuart Leaney, um, he's a runner, um, yeah, very good.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: He's like 227 in the London Marathon, and he does a lot of ultras.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, You've got to interview Kate.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: She's doing some amazing things right now.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Get her on the podcast.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Munny sent me you, and we had a chat over the telephone, and sort of realized there was a lot to you.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot to you.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I did a bit of research online about yourself as well and your background and your history and why you got into running.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was, you know, just tell us why, why did you get, you know, first off, why are you why are you doing a hundred marathons back to back?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing it?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, I started running in 2011.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I'd basically been about a year into recovery from an eating disorder.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think mentally and psychologically, the recovery had not caught up to the physical side.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in my head there was a part that said, well, it's okay, wait until people think you're okay and everything, and then you know, crack on back as you were.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And running just completely changed everything.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: It I've never relapsed in my eating disorder ever since.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's been, you know, 13th year, 12th year of running, I think, or 11 years.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, it's it just completely changed everything.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I suddenly realized some of the reasons that had caused the eating disorder were suddenly able to be channelled into endurance, into and it's specifically endurance sports, it wasn't just running, it was endurance, and there's something about being an endurance athlete that it's 99% mental, and the other 1%'s in your head, we say.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, so since then I I'd taken on these challenges every other year for fundraising for charity.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um raised just yesterday took£50,000 over the 10 years um since I've started fundraising.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so 100 marathons in a hundred days started out as a bit of a joke, believe it or not, with a friend.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's a virtual challenge that ends on the 10th of April and it was 100 days, and we basically signed up for every distance that was available.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Came out to just shy of 2,600 miles, and in short, it basically represents the distance of a refugee from Aleppo in Syria to Dover in the UK.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I rounded it up to the 2,620 miles to make the 100 marathons in 100 days.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Originally the plan was to just average that distance over the 100 days, uh, but I ended up then being egged on by a few friends who kind of goaded me into attempting a world record.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it doesn't take much goading with me, to be honest.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I think it was like day six we officially started making this, you know, world record attempt.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: We had like luckily witnesses on the run anyway, because of the village that we live in.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: So since then, they well, since day one, they've all been done in one go.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's literally a marathon every single day before or after work, however, I've been able to fit it in.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So are you splitting that between going outside and doing it and doing it on the treadmill?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so at the moment, because since say 43 with the issue with my knee, it's taking me like six to six and a half hours to get them done, which is just it's it's a humbling experience to say the least.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it it that's where you really, really show your colours in terms of are you endurance or not.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so there's an element of safety, you know, being a solo female runner on your own outside at at 11:30 at night is probably not ideal, and we live in quite a rural location.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So to fit in in the office on um the days that I'm in the office, I will do it outside because I literally finish work and then go straight outside to start the marathon because there wouldn't be enough time for me to get home to get on the treadmill to finish it before midnight because they have to be done before midnight for it to be on a consecutive day.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean all mate, to be honest with you, it's it's incredible.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: So But yeah, there are there are three charities by the way that I'm fundraising for the rep the representation is that of a refugee, you know, the Hundred Marathons, because it works out almost identical the distance.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it helps people visualize that.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: But there are three charities that I'm fundraising for.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: So the Refugee Council uh is the the refugee charity, but then there's the food bank charity, the Trussell Trust, and a charity called the Hygiene Bank.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to highlight UK poverty really, you know, I work in an industry that's very focused on wealth accumulation, maintaining wealth, preserving wealth, wealth succession.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like the elephant in the room that we don't talk about, you know, we talk about charitable giving and all those sorts of things.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to highlight and challenge the perceptions of those who face poverty in the UK.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a huge link with, you know, refugees.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: You look at the benefits that they're expected to live on, they're not allowed to work, and it's£39 a week.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so inevitably they end up having to access food banks and hygiene banks.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, there's a lot of British people living in this country who are working.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: There are working people who have to use food banks and hygiene banks.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to start those discussions that aren't necessarily happening at the moment and challenge the perceptions and and raise a load of money, hopefully, which is going well so far.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Kate, if someone wants to someone's listening to this podcast now, and I'm going to be sharing this later on.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a just giving page or a page where someone can make a donation towards this?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I split it across three charities.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the link is quite long.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's on a website called Don Uh Give As You Live.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we we can include the link for that.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: The best thing to do, to be honest, is either to follow the athlete page on Facebook for all of the updates, which is Kate Jaden and Joan's Athlete.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And on Instagram, it's DecaJaden, D-E-C-A, Jaden, J A Y D E N.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then obviously the link crops up all the time.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's in my bio and everything like that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the the name of the page is what Katie did next.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll make sure that that gets shares and that gets shared outside.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And let's see if we can get some donations going and coming across.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just on a on a note around um charitable giving and looking after people less fortunate, do you think financial planning firms are positioned or to be able to help drive more money to those that actually need it instead of profit for individuals and their personal wealth?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I see, I I I have a whole I have spoken for hours and hours and hours at length about these kind of ideas about what philanthropy means and what I have a very, very analytical mind.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I approach, you know, my own charitable giving as well, not just fundraising.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I approach my own finances in the same sort of way.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think about, you know, financial advice firms are in probably one of the best positions to be able to do that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: They're speaking to often wealthy individuals, or certainly individuals who have a high level of disposable income or liquid assets available.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think often the only discussion that's being had is that if you give 10% of your estate to charity, you'll get a discount on your IHT rate.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of framing that as a tax saving thing, I think it'd be great if people started talking more openly about the idea of using the wealth that we have in our lifetimes to see that difference, do something with it, you know, think about the way that we're giving.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do that with my own finances as well.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I feel like I can't I can't criticize, you know, huge wealth hoarding of people like Jeff Bezos if I'm not at least challenging my own, even on a micro scale.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, even every month I I do the same thing in the sense of if I want to do a bit of an extravagant purchase, I make sure that I am equally extravagant towards a good cause too.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the last two months I've also done matched giving on my own fundraising page.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I've said to people, you've got two hours.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea how generous you're going to be.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but every donation that is made within this window of time, I will match for my salary.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: So my payday was a couple of days ago, and I did that.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the last two months it's basically been like 600 pounds across the two months.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um just to be clear, I'm not a higher aid taxpayer either.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so quite a chunk of the salary that's gone in, but it is a very satisfying thing to do.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're seeing a lot of um firms adopted the ESG sort of focus, but also we had a company come on the podcast.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Charlotte interviewed them, um, the Global Returns Project.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but it's like funds dedicated to healing the world, basically.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: 0.25% of if everyone could donate 2.5% of their assets, put it into this global fund, yeah, you know, collectively, it'll have a massive impact.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And do you know what?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's crazy because when you think like, I mean, the the job that I'm in, I deal with files every single day.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if I review four files in a day, and you know, on average I'm spending three days of my week, that's 12 files a week.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's let's say 50 a month, it's 250 files a year, roughly.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: 200 files a year.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you just think of those files, at least 50% of them, I would say, when you're dealing with financial planning, you're at the level that people typically have, you know, at least£100,000 spare in assets.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And many, many of those cases, it's they're investing because they just want the spare cash to keep pace with inflation.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're investing in a balanced portfolio and you're getting more than inflation, and on a hundred thousand pounds a year, you know, even just a thousand pounds, you you just you think of I've always when I started out on this hundred marathons in a hundred days, I explained to people that I don't have the resources to give 10 or 15,000 pounds.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: But what I can do is approach this as a collective, and if I can gather enough people to say, put you know, 20 pounds in, it suddenly becomes very, very possible and quite a minimal effort, actually.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if lots and lots of people make a small effort, it it creates a snowball effect.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we you know, lots and lots and lots of us have pensions.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're forced to have pensions now with Nest.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if that's invested ethically and environmentally focused, I think there's a huge, huge positive impact it would have.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: But not enough people know about the power they have just by holding a pension in respect of how they of course, yeah, yeah.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I speak to a lot, I speak to a lot of friends about it even.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've had my own workplace pensions invested ethically since, well, when when you were deemed as a hippie because you you were invested in the only ethical fund available, you know, a standard life back in the day.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, who actually quite rate their ethical funds, actually, very thoroughly screened.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that you, you know, you were talking about 2011 then, 2010.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, to be invested ethically then, but there's a whole range of them now, and there's so many different focuses, you know, it's not just a case of getting rid of your plastic straws.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many ways, I'd agree with you.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just looking at ethical funds, not just ethical funds, but you know, ESG funds, that environmental focus.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it doesn't mean having to screen things out, and the returns on them now are probably better than they've ever been.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: People are actually using them to diversify portfolios, you know.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I never thought we'd be in a position where yeah, I never thought we'd be in a position where people are using these funds, not even for you know altruistic reasons, but actually for diversifying portfolios and reducing those returns.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: There are quite a few sort of popping up now, some very sort of um forward-thinking financial planning firms.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: I had a couple of chaps on podcast from a company called The Path, and they're purely positive impacts.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: They look past ethical, they're sort of like, you know, you can say you're ethical and you can have some money invested somewhere, which considers it makes it sound like you're green, but their whole ethos is purely positive impact.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it has to have a positive impact everything on people and planet, um, everything.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, their their portfolios are performing really outperforming ones that are meant to be the best.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: So they're doing really, really well.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: We see more and more of that, but I think there's an appetite for people coming into the profession, they're more aware of the impact that they're having and they want to be able to offer solutions to clients that are also becoming aware of the impact that they're having on the planet.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a huge and even people of of wealth and are older are starting to realize that their grandchildren are going to be living, are going to be living in a world that's going to be fucked, you know, unless we do something about it.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Pardon me.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's probably it's probably the only way to explain it, really.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and I actually saw a case the other day, literally, where it was a grandparent and it was actually, yeah, willing to invest a portion of my my portfolio, you know, into an ESG focus because the chances are it might be my grand my granddaughter that's the beneficiary of it.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's the grandkids and it's the Gen Zders that are making the boomer generation more aware of that.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I'd say a portion of the millennial generation.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say millennials, Gen Z and onwards, they're really kind of helping that that sort of previous generation to be able to see the real impact of things.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of positive things and lots of things for anybody coming into the profession that you know isn't just about making rich people money, it's about all the planet, and there are lots of things and lots of ways that's now happening.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: You just got to dig a little bit deeper, and I think over the years it will start to come to the surface a bit more.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, um, Kate, you are um somebody that's worked within the financial planning profession for quite some time now.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you started out in a financial advisor role, didn't you?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then sort of naturally progressed but moved more into compliance, where you now sit where you work at 360, isn't it?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So 360 services.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, 360 services.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, compliance monitoring officer.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, on the podcast itself, I haven't had many people who work within the compliance function, and it's a big, big, massive part of the financial planning process.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, what I want to do in this podcast as well is sort of bring to life the other roles, not just the financial advice position.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, do you mind just sort of giving us a bit of an overview of what it is, you know, how you got into the profession and why you've decided to move down into a compliance function and really what that is?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually I think like a lot of people in financial services fell into it, I'll be honest with you.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, people with uh geography degrees and a marine biology degree, so in my case, not a photography degree.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the reality was I didn't really have any financial help apart from the student loan, so I needed to work whilst I was in uni.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I progressed from banking into a graduate scheme when I finished uni to become a financial advisor.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I did that for a little bit, but I didn't find that it gave me that real analytical challenge.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't, I mean, financial advice is great, it's that client forward facing part, but it's very much the face of the shop.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as a financial advisor, your job is to go and build those relationships, but I think I always found it frustrating that I didn't get to do any of the technical part, the the the the research part.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I kind of spent quite a few years going backwards and forwards, and there were various challenges within my career as well.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, the I ended up kind of realizing that compliance, I ended up going through the power planning route, like many compliance do professionals do, and now have been in compliance for probably the last seven years, I think, of my career.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I I came into the industry in 2007.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, 16 years now.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right, 16 years.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: So just tell us a little bit about compliance then.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: So someone's listening to this podcast, perhaps they're thinking about moving into the financial planning profession, and all they ever see is adverts for a trainee financial advisor.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just talk to us a little bit about what compliance actually is then and the function of compliance, why it's important and why it's there.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think most people, most people call us the BPU, business prevention unit.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but you know, jokes aside, it I think compliance gets a bit of a bad rep, to be honest, in the industry.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's seen as boring, it's seen as something that's preventative.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: The reality is compliance is there to tell us how we should be doing our job in in the sense of not getting it wrong.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the job that I do now on a day to day.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Basis is I know the handbook through the FCA.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: I know the relevant rules and guidance.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I know what you have to do versus what is good practice.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: My job is to be able to interpret that and apply that to the advice that's being given.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there are a lot of different areas within compliance.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just, you know, file review checking.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So my day-to-day job tends to be file reviews, but I also then do a lot of work with final salary pensions.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's my level of high expertise, so to speak.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, generally in the main, it tends to be knowing the rules, the regulations that we have to go by.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then on top of that, it's keeping up to date with developments and what's happening in the industry and what the latest focus is.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the part that I find really valuable because I'm able to speak to firms and know where the focus is going with the regulator and what the latest papers being discussed are, you know, the discussion papers, consultation papers, guidance papers, and being able to keep up to date with those and interpret those for firms to say this is what you need to be doing.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is if we get advice wrong, it it continues to go back to that pre-RDR 2012 world where we're just seen as cowboys and we're, you know, love or hate the RDR part of the change over the industry.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: The idea is that it's supposed to be driving professionalism.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I do I very much joined this career, you know, I decided to stay at it after university, despite other options, because I see it as a professional role.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly now in the area that I'm in with compliance, it's a very, very knowledgeable and technical role.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And no firm can be without compliance.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um the the part probably I think that I find the scariest is that there are a lot of one-man band, excuse the phrase IFA's, where it's still the old guy in a broom cupboard with his paper files, you know, back in the 90s, sort of financial advice business model, and they're still holding the compliance role.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that terrifies me.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: It terrifies me that somebody who spends their day-to-day job as a financial advisor is also the head of compliance because I mean, I work in this industry and I know the handbook and I deal with compliance every day.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: I live, eat, sleep, compliance uh when it's not marathons.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but even I would hesitate about applying for a head of compliance role.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we have people across the country who are thinking that that would be sufficient.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it, I think it was only when I was in this kind of role dealing with lots of different firms, that you sort of see the different ways people deal with things.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, having those compliance support networks, you know, and there are there are several of them across the industry.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, having that group of professionals that you can access and and talk to, I think is is really valuable, um, if not scary at times, knowing what you don't know.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think you have to be a certain type of person to take this the right way.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: I know why it's coming.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know exactly why it's coming.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be a certain type of person to enjoy compliance, right?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be a certain type of thinker who uh a certain type of personality who to it to enjoy the role of compliance.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I used to work for a Viva and I worked as a trainer.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I had these guys coming into the contact center, and my job was to teach them the fundamental basics of like investments and pensions and life cover and all of that kind of stuff.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I was always sort of putting together these training manuals that were really exciting and interesting to try and get people engaged who've just come straight out.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Most of them coming out of university or coming out of college or something like that.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I go over to compliance with my like smile because I don't think, yeah, I've created this amazing training manual and it's brilliant.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why that's my lucky face.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Out comes a red pen.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're not saying that.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: I used to walk on, I used to walk on, I used to have an argument, but like they quite like me in the end, because I used to battle with them.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I've got to, I've got to get a per, I've got to get it across so it's interesting, not just so it's and they're like, yeah, but at the end of the day, if you're making it interesting and they go on the phone and say the wrong thing, we're gonna be screwed here, you know.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's I mean, to be fair though, like my other part of my job, apart from fire reviewing, is I'm responsible for delivering pension transfer workshops, right?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you know how much regulation has happened in the last seven years in that industry.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and making that interesting when you're talking about not just compliance, but you're talking about regulation and the papers that have come out from the FCA.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: How can you make that interesting?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it is possible, you know, at the end of the day, it's stuff that we have to do.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right, it's a certain kind of person who enjoys that job.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not because you're telling people that they're right or wrong, actually.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was the one thing that gives me some sort of solace in this industry that my job is doing something good.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: It it helps to ensure that the industry is delivering trustworthy good advice.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're helping firms to do the right thing.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that could ever be viewed as a bad thing.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, because you know, you're helping people to ensure that they're doing the right thing.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So those advice, this is anybody listening to this is thinking about coming, getting into the profession as well, is that you know, if you're a financial advisor and you give the wrong advice or you do the wrong thing, you can end up in prison.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just that, it's the fact that you know, you can change, you can change companies, and pension transfer complaints are just I've seen the calculations on those things.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And because of the costs of guarantees, it's not just the fact that you have the cost of the complaint for the company.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: A pension transfer complaint can close a business.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, pension transfer business, if it's not done well and right, um, can stop the sale of your business further down the line.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're owning a financial advice business, if you're setting up a financial advice business, think really, really carefully about the type of business that you give, how you give it.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure that you're involving, if you if you don't have the resources yourself, involve external professionals, you know, do all you can to ensure that it's comprehensive and don't just assume that because you think you're doing the right thing, that you are doing the right thing.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because yeah, I've I I also work on a lot of due diligence projects where people are trying to sell their firm later in life, they're trying to retire, and they have a backbook of business that's been pension reviews, uh, pension transfers.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just pension transfers, you know, if you give poor advice for all sorts of areas, you know, it it can cost you your entire retirement, it can cost you your business, it can cost you your career, because you know, at the end of the day, a regulated complaint is against you as an individual, not the firm necessarily, yes, of course, the firm, but that can follow you around as a regulated professional.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think this is where the industry probably needs to catch up with the idea of being professionals.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if a doctor or a solicitor, you know, gives incorrect advice, that follows them as a regulated individual.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's it's no different in that respect to financial advice.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Which could hit you financially, it could hit you in your career.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said as well, like when it comes to the retirement and you're thinking about and you've got your own business and you're thinking about selling that business on, that legacy can follow you as well, even into retirement, can't it?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the value I think of getting compliance involved earlier on.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because it's not just and I think we've still got quite a way to go there.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just a case of you know, viewing it as ticking a box, because the moment you view compliance as ticking a box and don't get actively involved in it, it'll always be a business prevention.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's always going to be viewed that way.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that just like a business prevention thing?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's because somebody's out there under pressure on the front end as an advisor.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they, you know, maybe they're, you know, they shouldn't have targets, they shouldn't have but you know, it essentially that you don't make money unless you go out and write business and win clients.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: The the financial advice sort of front-facing end feels like the sexy end, doesn't it?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you want to be like, you know, this is what we do and this is how we do it, is the kind of the end where you're probably going to have more of the ego.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um and when they write it all down and they say they can do something because they're excited about doing it, you know, the way you've got to look at it, I think, if you're going into that financial advice position is that you've got a safety net in compliance that's there to protect not only just to protect you, but I guess most importantly, to protect that individual that's parting ways with their money, where you're going to be saying that you're giving them the right advice.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um you have to protect the consumer at the end of the day as well.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, compliance, it's there.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's, you know, people can be quite negative about it sometimes, but for the wrong reasons that, you know, look at it in a positive light, that it's there to protect you, protect consumers, and give the profession a better name and therefore grow and track the right people to it who've got the right ethics.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And finding a financial advisor can be a minefield for the consumer who, let's be honest, we write these suitability reports.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we talk about guilt yields, critical yields, we talk about, you know, assets and volatility and this, that, and the other.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I always try and rope it back to my mum who works in the NHS.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, would my mum understand this?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, would I have understood this when I was working for the bank?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because when I worked for the bank, I probably would have fallen under the whole knowledge and experience.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Kate works for a bank, so she's got a good knowledge and experience of financial services.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: I remember getting my first pension statement through and realizing that I could lose money.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, do you know what I mean?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: As a 20-year-old, you know, 20, 21 years old, because I turned 21 in my first year of financial financial services.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember being really shocked and scared at the fact that I could lose money.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was like, well, what's the point?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, obviously now I'm organs ablazing, risk 10 out of 10, like give me all the risk you've got, give me all the return, sort of thing, you know, and some more about it.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think we have to remember at the end of the day, we're dealing with people who more often than not you're relying on us.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: They're relying on us as an industry, 100% trusting us to give them the right advice.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's quite a responsibility.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, 100%.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we're touching on here with compliance, then it's definitely a role for somebody that enjoys learning, enjoys keeping on top of what's the changes, the things that are happening, all the different changes that are going on.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, somebody that likes to be on the ball, you know, and somebody really that likes to invest their time in doing that.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as a financial advisor and your client facing, a lot of your time, because that we touched on earlier, is getting in front of those clients.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's trying to win that business, it's building relationships, it's it's building your team around you, it's all those typical types of things.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when you stick a compliance hat on top of that as well, as you've alluded to there, you wouldn't take a head of compliance position, would you?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a tough role to fulfill whilst trying to do your job as a financial advisor.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Almost impossible.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a scary role.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen people as head of compliance who have tried to portray the risks of what is happening in a business, they've been to the board meetings, they've said, you have this problem, you have this issue, you need to address it, you've not got sufficient capital adequacy, you're not meeting these rules.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then you know, you find out like several years, like they're they're then omitted from board meetings.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Next thing you know, that person's entire career is at risk because they're the one that's the head of compliance.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if you as a financial advisor running a business are also acting as your your compliance function, it it you really, really need to make sure you have the correct support network in place to do that.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we've talked a little bit also pre uh pre-recording this, um, about inclusivity, diversity within the financial planning profession, how historically it's always been viewed as very male-dominated, um, um, not just male, but white male, middle-aged.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've heard that band around quite a lot.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I spoke to you about how I don't see a great deal of conversation around the LGBTQ community.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we also talked about you specifically and some of the challenges that you've come up against in your career.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because as you shared with me, um, you are on the autism spectrum and also ADHD.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there were some of the things we were talking about, some of the positives that that brings for a start.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Also some of the challenges and barriers and negatives to potential job security.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Let's have a little chat about that.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: What's your experience around?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: I know we've kind of touched on about three or four different subjects there, but I'm sure you're Yeah, yeah.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think particularly with neurodiversity, which is the the language that you use when somebody isn't the same as everybody else, in the sense of so ADHD and and autistic spectrum disorder are the conditions that are neurodevelopmental disorders, which is basically the way your brain works.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: So ADHD means you don't have enough dopamine or it's not processed properly, and being on the autistic spectrum affects all sorts of different people in all sorts of different ways, and it presents very, very differently from one person to another.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the big things is when you can hold down a job, quite often you might find that for me, I've always found that it's a communication problem.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: So right now we're speaking about something that I know about that I'm familiar with, and it's very easy to talk about, you know, I'm great at public speaking, but then if I'm in a situation, it's it's been very, very easy over the years for I've faced job insecurity, I've faced challenges in jobs where people have made the wrong assumption about me because I don't communicate in the same way as others necessarily.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: I use I use words in a different manner, potentially, and it's it's I mean, A, you're coming up against being, you know, seen as a female who is blunt, you know, and that's automatically a negative.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you're a male, being seen as blunt is is direct, it's to the point, it's a positive thing.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you have those gender stereotypes that you have to face, but then on top of that, the fact that you know my communication style is different, the way I learn is different.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: There are lots of different ways that that impacts me, and there are a lot of stressful things that that can impact me.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so the like sensory issues in terms of noises and lights and things like that.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: With ADHD, it tends to work very well for working under pressure and deadlines, but I have to have a real hard deadline, like a quite a pressured deadline.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I've seen challenges over the years, I've seen people, I've been misunderstood a lot.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in an industry that is very much not only is it a very white male, cisgendered hetero sort of type role, and that's that's not me painting that in a negative light, that's just those those stats say it for themselves.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you're automatically othered a little bit anyway, but to then have that misunderstanding repeatedly, people don't always have the time and understanding to say, uh, how can we include you?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: How can we how can we make this work for you and for me?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the great thing about the current employer is the first time I found an employer that said, What can we do?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: What can we do as a company to bring out the best in you for you and for us?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: And they do, they they they find ways to make things work for me as an individual, not just make me fit into a box.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the the positives, you know, but particularly with so for example with ADHD, ADHD um thinkers tend to be very creative, will think outside of the box, will come up with genius solutions for problems.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you give a person with ADHD a problem, not only would they have solved it within, you know, usually quite quickly, they'll have come up with some really creative ideas that you might not have thought about otherwise.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: And being on the autistic spectrum, you know, you hear all these board meetings, they're always looking for bottom-up thinking.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're always looking for people who build build upwards with their thinking processes rather than taking a vague concept and growing from there.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, never taking anything at face value, analyze everything.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: In file review, if you have an analytical mind, if you're detailed and thorough, if you can remember all of that sort of stuff.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, like I can tell you all sorts of areas, the SCA handbook, which is rules, which is guidance, you know, where to find that information, those sorts of resources as a business to draw on are invaluable, but all too often you're seen as a problem first, you're seen as hard work, you're seen as asking too many questions, you're seen as too much of a challenge.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the problem is people don't want to always accept that there might be challenges and there might be additional uh accommodations they might have to make for a person.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: But the reward of that, and I've seen that in my job now, and it's honestly I can say in 16 years in the industry, it's the first time, and I joined in 2019, it's the first time where I felt safe in a job where I felt that a job really knows me.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: But that was late life diagnosis as well.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I was 30, it's 2019, I had the ADHD diagnosis, and that was when they picked up that was very likely on the autistic spectrum, too.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then the official diagnosis followed shortly after for that as well.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it it has presented a lot of challenges over the years, and you know what?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: The industry just doesn't if you're not represented, how can you be expected to be accommodated?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I haven't been in so many circumstances, and I can honestly say, you know, 2019 was one of my lowest points before I joined 360, and it was just uh the impact of job insecurity on your mental health can never be underestimated.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: The thought that you can go from, you know, you've built this career, the fact that I've managed to build a career over all those years is nothing short of miraculous, I don't think, to be honest.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, when you find your place in the world, there is nothing more affirming than that.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, the the results are great for everybody, not just the person in the job.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I liked what you said there about the the firm understanding what it is you're going through with autism, PhD, and firms need to be more aware of the people that work for them and what might they be going through and be accommodating and have a policy in place that supports people with different learning styles and be able to accommodate those individuals, not see them as a burden, um, but to see what they can bring and how they can fit within the business and how they can make improvements, with essentially what is considered to be quite a superpower for some people, you know, it's it is an ability to see things completely differently, but yes, it has its challenges when it comes to articulating that sometimes.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think as well, like businesses need to the the huge thing that I find is that because I can articulately exchange conversations with people in the right circumstances, because I can, you know, be seen as holding down a job, yeah, there's almost this impression that you have to work so, so hard to fit in and do those things that it's almost just like we can't be that bad because you know you have a job.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people don't actually see the struggles behind it, you know, and and learning to be more open about that and what you actually face as an individual has been quite inlighting.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the marathons have helped me do that actually because of some of the issues I've faced along the way with like meltdowns and things and sensory overload and things like that, have been quite empowering to show people that on the outside you don't you don't know what somebody's going through, you don't know what they're doing to cover that up, to try and fit in, to try and hold down a job because that's viewed as what your worth is in society, usually your ability to work, sadly.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think companies need to invest more heavily, especially within the financial planning profession, in the well-being of their staff and the mental well-being of their staff.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've just joined forces with talk club.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a men's talk club, you know, demographic of suicide under the age of like so for me, um, very much like you, I spent I spent a long time depressed and insecure around my job.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I run a business for 13 years, but I was depressed, I was insecure, I was stressed, I was drinking heavily.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I had borderline addiction problems, I couldn't stop.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was driving myself to the point of not really ever feeling secure.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't explain it to I could not explain, I couldn't explain it to anybody, and that was part of my problem because I couldn't explain it to it because I thought that I was going mad.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um other people would judge me on.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Based on that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't, it was only until I started opening up and going to meetings.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I did a 12-step program, and that worked really, really well for me in respect to my mental health.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Then talk talk therapy, talking to other men and opening up uh CBT.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I can relate massively to the ADHD side and the creativity side.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we kind of I can build things really well, get really creative, and I and I'm up here.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden, the next day I could be down here because I've overloaded myself with so many ideas.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to learn how to manage those feelings, those rushes of ideas because I've got so many of them.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then people would get frustrated with me because I would go like a butterfly from one thing to the other all the time.
• 44:43
  unknown: Yeah.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're sure you don't have ADHD.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, this is something that we're looking into at the moment, actually.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like yeah, and it's um, and I and I and I I find it difficult to see projects through because I get very bored.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very, very classic trait of ADHD.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you can have great ideas, you can get through the bulk of the thing, and sometimes it'll be that last attention to detail and tying up the finishing ends.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: You'll find so many people with ADHD tend to be great entrepreneurs, great creative thinkers, great business, you know, CEOs, they can handle pressure, you know, there's so many positive things, but then it's almost some of those negative connotations, it's almost like you need to try harder to be more organized to see things through.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is saying to somebody with ADHD, well, you just need to concentrate harder.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, would you say to a diabetic, you need to work harder at making more insulin genes?
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: You just wouldn't, would you?
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the reality, it's a chemical process in your brain.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: I felt so ashamed.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing is as well, right?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: When I started learning about my emotions and everything, and then I realized I was carrying a lot of shame about who I was and about how I couldn't do those types of things, but even from school, like I struggled.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: I when I went to school, I sat in lessons.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm I'm not a I'm not some I'm I would class myself as quite intelligent.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I seem pretty bright to me.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love learning.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I look I I can get obsessed about something and really learn, like go into detail, really get obsessed about it and learn about it.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I I just struggle my tent my attention is terrible.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I have I have to.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing I've learned as being a business owner is that when I was trying to do everything myself, crazy, I was crazy, I was overloaded.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we all are like that.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: But as I've brought people in into relevant positions, so during my creative process and I drive things forward, in my wake is things to do.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's only to a point that I can do those things, I have to hand, I now have to hand over to people.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: And before I used to hold on to it because I didn't want to look like I couldn't do it, and therefore I would be ashamed of myself.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: And when I started, when I started to understand that what I was doing to myself was having this idea of being a high jumper where I set the bar so high when I was running up to it and failing every time and maybe crossing it once every 10, someone just bam, yeah, just drop the bar down a little bit, let go of some of that work, let go of the things you're holding on to, because I held on too much stuff.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I freed myself up.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, I feel alive.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then as soon as I as soon as I admitted it, as soon as I came to accept that I had these problems, which you are talking about as well, it was like, wow, and it just, and therefore that, you know, and when you talk about recovery, especially from um eating disorders, right?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that recovery process, for me, recovery from I haven't drank alcohol for nearly three years, I haven't had a depressive episode of suicide for a good couple of years, I feel in good mental fitness.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's such a huge difference, isn't it?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because mental fitness is as important as physical fitness.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like sometimes that that word shame that you said then it was it resonates so much because I find that now, even three years on from diagnosis for ADHD, and the autistic spectrum one was huge for me.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like I felt shame for so long.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I was always viewed as you know, oh, it's Kate, she's she's blunt, she's rude, she's this, all of the negative connotations.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then the ADHD side of things, you know, she's away with the fairy, she's always got you know, she's always doing too much, she's always you know, she she doesn't pay enough attention to detail.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: But the irony being, there's an ultimate contradiction so many times that I either pay too much attention to detail and get so hecked up in it, and that's very much an autistic trait, is that I can't focus on the bigger picture at times.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we look at the concept of bottom-up thought processing.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that you the way I build pictures around the world, I don't have vague concepts of things.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of people using the charity example think of, oh, well, that's a good thing to do.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the way my mind works about charity.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: That is absolutely not the way it works.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's not an emotional thing, it's just a you have these building blocks of small, small details.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: Once you have all of those details, you can then move up to the next step, the next step, the next step, to the point you're at the top, and most people think from the top point of a concept of something, i.e., charitable giving in this instance, and then they build it downwards.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: The problem with that is you already have preconceptions, but for years and years, and I'm still getting past that idea of shame.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: I am still working through some of the and and to be honest, I will say that some of my experiences in employment have been traumatic at times, and I don't use that word lightly, where I have left a job because I didn't think I could cope anymore.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I knew that that relationship wasn't going to work, I knew that it wasn't right for me, and I basically just I left, but I knew that my CV would stand well enough so I could go into another role.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it it's it's been challenges over the years, and and and yeah, that thing you say about shame, uh getting past that, and I'm learning to to embrace the positives, and yeah, I joke about things and stuff like that, but I remember I remember about seven years old wishing that I was different, and I've been regretting it ever since.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think a big part of it's about accepting our positives and accepting what we consider to be our negatives, but they're not actually negatives.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: When you bring them into the light and you look at it, they're not they're not negative, they're just who you are.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we have to be accepting the more we accept others, the more we and the more we accept ourselves, the more we the more we love ourselves, the better we feel, right?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the thing is as well, it's something is only viewed as a negative part of your personality in the circumstance in which you are.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, autism and ADHD are they would be considered under the Equalities Act as disabilities.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't view myself as disabled, but I also acknowledge that that is noted as a disability, and there would be circumstances where I very remote much would be viewed that way.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I was in the circumstance where a sensory overload sort of issue happened and I couldn't do anything, all of a sudden I've gone from a professional who's holding down a job to somebody who's like a just an user shell of a person who can't function.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, you it it's only seen as in a negative if people view it that way.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: You said something then, sensory overloads, right?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I I used to use that all the time, that word.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, just describe to me what sensory so somebody who's listening to this podcast, right?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because some people will identify, they'll identify without doubt with with what you're saying.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: So just tell me what describe to me what a sensory overload is for you in in in like the workplace or any any place really.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, the most recent example, and the reason why that one's kind of at the forefront at the moment, is I'm running a marathon every day.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, people when they're fatigued, I'll use that example, the neurotypical example.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: I use somebody who doesn't have you know a developmental neurodevelopmental disorder.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: When you're really, really tired and you become a bit crabby, yeah, and a bit sensitive to just everything is doing your head in.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine that being your life day to day.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the the most recent example was on uh Monday, I was doing my marathon and I had to do it outside, and I have to start straight from the office because they're taking a long time at the moment.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so to do that, I started straight from work, but it's a relatively busy road.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: But to keep things simple and take away some of the thinking, I kind of thought, oh, okay, well, I'll just do this out and back route three times.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: And there were quite a few boy races, and the noise from cars, there were traffic lights, street lights, cars whitting past.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: And basically, I can only describe it as you know, where it if somebody took an air horn and put it to your ear to the point that you have you just go bang, and sensory overload is that point at which you can no longer cope, and and the shame of it as an adult, it can appear like you're just having a tantrum, actually.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: It can appear like you are just crying, ugly crying and screaming, and and and it's so embarrassing as an adult, and that's where the shame comes from sometimes, and having to be open more about that and and helping people to understand that actually part of that I find is on me because the more I can do that, the more people will understand that autism isn't just what you think it is, autism isn't just you know, a not a non-verbal male individual who is violent.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's a certain kind of stereotype that's portrayed in the media of what autism means, and we don't often see it in females portrayed in the way that it actually is.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, sensory overload is the way my brain processes noise.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm less bothered by lights, but other people might be hugely bothered by that.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: Certain textures with foods, so I can sometimes end up with quite a restrictive diet because you know, loads of fruit, I physically can't eat it because it'll make me gag and sensory like issues around eating foods and things.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's anything to do with the senses, really, and when that all becomes too much.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: Things that in the workplace, for example, someone would look at you as being disruptive, or they would look at you as being um, you know, non-compliant, you know.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's the word.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: That is actually the word.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um not fitting in, you know, why are you being disruptive?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, almost like you're doing it on purpose.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you know when you I can't eat that, I don't like the texture, or I can't have like it's I'm a friend and she couldn't have a beans touch of chips or anything like that.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was a real thing for her, you know.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: For her, it was like a it was like a real fear, a feeling of like I can't have them touching.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: There was a girl that used to work for me.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't put a banana next to her.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: She had an innate fear of bananas.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember, you know, we we joked about it because we thought, how could you have fear of bananas?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: Looking back on it, you didn't take the piss out of people like that because you don't realize or know what's going on.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're trying to be joking.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think like the the example in the office, I mean, I'm really lucky with the office that I work in now, but the obvious one is like the photocopier example.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: So in a previous office, I used to be sat two seats away from the photocopier.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can imagine that you're constantly on edge, constantly, you know, if you sat next to a photocopier, so one of the things that I do is quite often in work, I work with earphones.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just so that you know you can get rid of noise.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, I'll end up zoned into four different conversations in the office, you know.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, the accommodations being made makes a huge difference in the workplace.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something, you know, it's not just you know, myself and others who have those conditions, you know, the regulator themselves, you know, they had a discussion paper back in July 21.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: So just July last year, you know, we're talking like nine months, eight, eight, nine months ago.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's diversity and inclusion in the workplace.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they specifically speak about the strengths that individuals that are diverse can bring to your workplace.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that we should be viewing this differently now.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: We should be viewing including people and inclusivity, not as a tick box.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: Diversity inclusion shouldn't be a tick box exercise.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: It can be something that benefits business, it can be something that brings real skills and and diversity.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and I honestly think, you know, not even talking about myself here, but I think that there is beauty in diversity.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's a real beauty in seeing differences in people.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that the more we acknowledge our differences, there's beauty to be found in that, and that suddenly we find our similarities.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, without a shadow of a doubt, do you do any kind of inclusive inclusivity or diversity?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you ever talk about your ADHD um autism to companies at all?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not at the moment.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that I would like to help people understand.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me there was coming through an element of shame.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I probably went through a period of what the technical term would be internalized ableism.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the idea that you view a condition with a certain stereotype, because that's all I'd seen.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'd only seen that autism must mean that you're a non-verbal, you know, properly disabled person.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so once I'd worked through that, and once I'd kind of come through that and kind of realized and challenged my own perceptions, acknowledging the struggles, acknowledging the differences and learning more about that.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's something that I'm really passionate about.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that I'm passionate about because people don't um ignorance breeds fear and fear breeds hatred.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: We don't, we you know, if we think about racism, homophobia, transphobia, they tend to be born out of initially, not always, but they tend to be born out of a lack of knowledge about something.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: The more we know about something, the more it's just a part of our lives.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you look at the Gen Z now, you know, you have people come out as non-binary in school, and it's like a no big deal.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, okay, yeah, I've got my friend, they're non-binary.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now I have my other friend who's gay, and and and it's just it's just it, well, it's just a thing.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: It is what it is.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost a non-thing in in schools now, and I think that's brilliant.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, I'd like to, I would like to talk to people more about that in helping the financial services industry become a more friendly pay place to include people like me.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a and I think um within any within any profession, there are certain types of role that that really do suit somebody with a certain um, like for example, if you are and if you do have autism, there are certain roles within financial planning that are probably going to be really hard.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: And there are roles where they're going to be absolutely suited for, like, like amazing, like superhuman, like sort of perfect, perfect fit.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's about identifying those.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder how many firms where they don't have knowledge or understanding of people with ADHD um or autism, where perhaps they could be missing out on some incredible hires or the right hires.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and I I I had a conversation with a firm literally yesterday, and they're struggling with the paraplanner shortage.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is um the whole industry at the moment is short of paraplanners, they're short of technical paraplanners that are very ex that there are experts in their field.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: The reality is, I think there are so many people so suited to that role.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: The more we take that role seriously, good paraplanners, good compliance professionals, and pay them accordingly.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like why are we still having to have this conversation that the financial advisors are the ones earning big bucks and also having targets and bonuses and all of that?
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why you why is the industry not recognising the knowledge and expertise of your researchers, your your paraplanners, your compliance professionals?
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because that is not an easily built career.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't you you don't have to have a personality for it, it's a skill set and it's something that's learnt, really.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, I think I think the more we think about the types of roles that suit different types of people, the more we can have really, really good, well-working businesses.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: I want to continue talking to you um after the, you know, when we've finished this podcast anyway, not today, but in the future, about where we can work together to really bring to light the opportunity for people with autism within financial planning, but also how firms can accommodate anybody that has autism within their firms.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: But also, what are you doing about recognizing and identifying uh people that might well be um displaying certain behaviours that might well set the alarm bell off saying, well, actually, let's let's look at this and can we do something to accommodate um what it is that you're feeling?
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, it doesn't look like you're being disruptive for any any particular reason, you know.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's about having those conversations, isn't it?
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: And bringing it into the light.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember not being able to articulate why.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_01: I just remember thinking, well, that's the way you view me, but I'm not trying to do anything bad.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think over the years have gained quite an intense knowledge, you might say, of diversity and inclusion in workplaces.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that I think a lot of companies just don't really know about.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know about language, they don't know about, and even when you look at the LGBT side of things, um, the practice, for example, of using pronouns on emails and encouraging people if they wish to do so, adding those to the bottom of emails can create a safe working place for people who aren't cisgendered necessarily to be able to just quietly say, these are my pronouns and they might be different to yours.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, having those conversations with firms who it is through no fault of their own, they just haven't encountered those issues, they haven't encountered that knowledge, and it's just a change that the industry needs to make over time.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it comes much more naturally to the younger generation without generalizing that it does because it's language that we have been more familiar with, you know.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: When I saw the when I saw the pronouns and everything, and I'm gonna be honest, when I saw the pronouns coming out and people putting it on their emails and on their LinkedIn, I didn't really understand it.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really get it, and I and you know, I'm 40 years old.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I didn't get really get it at first.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm starting to get it, you know.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's the people that are sitting there who want to be able to announce their identification.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually ironically, it tends to be that you don't want to announce it.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: You just want to be able to quietly say, Oh, this is how who I am.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um probably the most honest thing that I can explain to you is that the ability to put your pronouns on something and just quietly say these are my pronouns enabled me to do so and quietly question my own pronouns and to be able to actually say, Hey, my pronouns are they and them, and it you know, that uh gender is very, very different to biological sex, and there's a whole different like conversation to be had a whole other time.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: We can spend hours talking about it, but the reality is there's always going to be a part of me that will identify, you know, with the female struggles in this industry, but then there's also a part of me that is very much uh I'll affectionately call myself a gender bender.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: Gender bender.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: Gender bender.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't neatly fit a box.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh genderqueer is is the technical term, or gender fluids.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: It means I don't typically fit a box very neatly.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: When I when I was young, when I was younger, queer was like what you would call who was gay, a man who was gay.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: A man who was gay specifically.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: So queer, and your your explanation of gender bender.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: What does queer mean?
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I is does queer meaning.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: So like queer queer is a very much a term that has has been reclaimed.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now that there will inevitably be some gay men who have a traumatic experience of that word who will never ever ever want to use that word about themselves or anybody else.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a word that you should ever use about anybody unless they have told you that that's how they identify.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of that language, it basically is an identification that says it it kind of avoids a very binary label.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: So genderqueer doesn't necessarily mean that you fit a neat box, but it definitely means that you don't fit the norm.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you are queer in terms of sexuality, it might just mean, you know, it's another way of saying bye, it might be another way of saying that you are, you know, pansexual or something like that.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the idea of using the word queer is very much an idea of reclaiming language that is used as an offensive term.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll find that in all manner of different areas of marginalized groups historically, that words that have been used as insults against them have sometimes been reclaimed.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't mean that you, as the person not in that group, can use it against about somebody.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll find that in different areas of society.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: But queer is very much the idea was that people reclaimed that word and made it their own and made it part of their own identity in in flipping things around.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, it's quite an affectionate sort of self-use term in the LGBT world for a lot of people.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um when you so let's sort of just very touch very quickly touch on, you know, you're working in a compliance function, so application things come through from clients.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: What's your take on how the profession is uh positioned to uh support clients from the LGBTQ plus community?
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is it sort of forward thinking?
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is there work to be done?
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see?
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is there challenges?
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I think those are challenges.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even thinking about financial services myself, the way myself and my wife encounter them, even any sort of service, you call somewhere and you say you're married and they don't have details of your spouse, the automatic assumption is that your spouse must be the opposite sex to you.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_01: And the every time my wife calls somebody like the broadband or she calls the bank or the you know, somewhere like that, oh uh how how are how are you how is your husband?
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you might struggle because I don't have a husband.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have a spouse, but I don't have a husband.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think taking away the assumption that of the heteronormative relationships in the financial planning cycle, having that awareness that your situation as a hetero person might be very different.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, the way my wife and I will start a family is very, very different to what you would expect in your normal financial planning situation.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the idea that you'll need a set of funds to be able to do that if you have an IVF.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: It might mean that it's a very fixed date.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: It, you know, those sorts of considerations to when those life events happen.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's things like in your fact-finding process, don't assume male and female.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: For the love of God, please stop doing that because that's really old.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: I also think a really, really forward-thinking way across generally across society, but financial services or any sort of service provider is if we can just stop assuming gender of people, it's very easy to talk in gender neutral terms when you don't know somebody.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_01: Say, for example, I said to you, Oh, yeah, I've got um, I've got I've got this friend, Frankie, and you're not really sure whether Frankie is a male or a female, your automatic assumption is, oh, okay, cool, yeah, they can come if they want to.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so natural to do that.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like it's an alien concept.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but thinking more about things like that and and putting ourselves out of our own positions, and I try and do the same not for me, but for like groups of people that I'm not in, you know, when we think about race, when we think about any like homophobia, transphobia, phobia, sexism, any of those things, if you put yourself into the place where you have so for example, I have white privilege, so it's my duty to be able to understand the issues of racism and stand against racism, the same way that you know, the LGBT community needs people who aren't in that community to be allies and try and put yourself in that position.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, financial services has an awful long way to go, even just looking at forms and the way we fill them in and the assumption of male and female relationships, um, the assumption of things, and and think about how relevant the information you're gathering is.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Think about how you can make your financial planning holistic for those kind of clients as well.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Using the example of if, for example, you know, you you might have a couple and one of them might have just come out as trans, you just don't know.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, say, for example, and they say to you, you know, you might see them one year as what appears to be a straight couple, and then a year down the line, one of them is transitioning.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think educating yourself a little bit about what that person might be facing and thinking about the wider perspectives of what you can do to help them if they need any help.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: How does that work, right?
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I like asking you questions, good.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if if say, for example, I identify as a man right now and I've got some like life protection attached to my investment bond and all that, yeah, whatever, yeah.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I come out and I then I decide gender-wise and I have and I become a female to identify as a female, right?
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't does that affect my life assurance in any way?
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because because I was born a man, yeah.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_01: So just a couple of the points on now, you're gonna think I'm very compliant.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's fine.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: But when we talk about language, when we talk about like people being trans, and this is where very much I've worked hard to educate myself because I'm not trans.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: When somebody doesn't decide to change gender any more than I decide to be gay, so that's the first thing, and then secondly, identifying as you can choose the language that you identify with, but you don't, it's not an identity that you can pick up and put on.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Often people who have been through that have spent a lifetime trying to identify actually as this gender or trying to identify in my instincts with sexuality is straight.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, but yeah, there will be impact on things like life insurance.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_01: So the reality is you it's going to depend on your own transition.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if we think about a client who might be trans, in terms of the financial planning cycle, if they have life insurance, critical illness, that would probably need to be rewritten.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_01: You would need to speak to your provider because it's not the fact that you are changing biological sex that would be so much the issue as the fact that if you go through your hormone process, and again, I think there's probably a lot of work to be done in terms of how insurance is underwritten, because the knowledge at the forefront of research and studies around how the hormone transition works, we're still only at the very beginnings of figuring out how trans people can participate in sports and at what point it's fair, not fair, etc.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but with things like life insurance, that's going to be a huge thing.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you would need to contact your provider, um, because of course the very the very simple factors that you're going to need to change if you go through the full gender reassignment process in the sense of legally changing your gender, you'd need to change that on all of your policies and everything as well.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is there, do you think there is a barrier to entry for financial planning for LGBTQ?
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think there is a barrier to entry, or do you think it's just like it's not an issue, it's not a problem?
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's more the fact that how that financial planner um, I don't know, um, communicates with that person.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, because I because I I a little while back, right, I did some research and I was looking for some financial planners that are openly LGBTQ and that openly talk about financial planning for the LGBT plus community.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_00: I had someone come on called Taylor Beavers, and he needs a gay man, and he felt that gay men have a different need to a straight man or a straight and a fat man.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and he felt that yes, 100% we have a different need and a different approach needs to be taken.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And but there was there was very minimal um, there was any financial planning firms that were really positioned to say we're gonna put our foot foot forward and we're gonna talk about it.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so do you think there's there there is a need for it to be done?
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think, you know, what how can I think there's a need.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_01: There isn't that we do have different needs in a lot of respects, you know, as a gay woman, as a gay man, even gay men versus gay women have very different needs, to be honest, but that's you know, men and women.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um there are differences that need to be taken into consideration, and to be honest with you, the best way to do that is somebody who identifies in a similar way to you.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that representation matters.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I I think I think Taylor's right, you know, you need those that that acknowledgement of the different needs.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in terms of as a career, I would say that there probably is still a barrier because as gay men, you've got to remember that the largest sector of the largest, you know, contingent is basically straight men, there's often toxic masculinity.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked in offices very recently, you know, not at 360, but you know, previous firms where there's lads, lads club culture.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've jokingly, but very seriously at the same time, called out that behaviour.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so the reality is if we're in a so if we're in an environment where the norm is lads, lads, lads, how do you ever expect a gay man to be able to necessarily fit into that?
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: How do you necessarily expect you know anybody who isn't your typical model to fit into that?
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there are, you know, you see the reaction.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I remember like I'd never identified as straight, but when you start actually dating same-sex partners, every time I guessed in the industry when I'm delivering training, face to face, I found, oh, have you got a family?
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_01: You've got a husband, no, I'm a big old gay, you know.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a gender vendor.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's the fact that like you are that's the constant assumption.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you that that culture, the again, and it's where if we can get more people that are different into the industry that changes, but there are barriers to getting into that industry, you know, when you don't fit the feminine role of a straight female, and you're also not a straight man either.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: There are, I mean, in theory, you can say technically there's nothing legally stopping you do that, but the reality is the culture in our industry probably prevents the barriers, prevents the entry.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're right about the culture.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you look previously, like even like five years ago, right, there was never female financial planner influences on social media, right?
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_00: You never, you never had it.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And like, albeit it's coming and it's coming through now, and there's lots of females that are kind of they're delivering their personal brand in the way they want to because that's who they are.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they also feel that there is a direct need for more women to get financial advice, which there is the great transition of wealth.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's more can be more female millionaires than men, um, you know, and there is a definite need, and women want financial advice from women, right?
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think, you know, I think gradually over time, as someone feels confident within who they are and their personality and their sex and their gender, um, sexual preference, sorry, and their gender, then I think we start to see people have that confidence to step up into that role.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about, yeah, I feel like when it comes to any kind of change within a profession that is predominantly male and white, right?
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_00: You need somebody to step up.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that brave person needs to say, look, I'm here, this is who I am, and I'm gonna be me.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's going to then attract other people into the profession who are openly gay and openly uh LGBT club, or whatever it might well be.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what though?
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_01: What we actually need like that is not just for us to be brave.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_01: What we need for real true change, and this applies to any marginalized group or group that has been systemically prejudiced or or treated differently, um, is that you need allies.
• 1:19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19:05
  SPEAKER_01: The reality is, and I've explained the same thing in so many different circumstances, and I had conversations with British Triathlon Federation around um the locations for world championships.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm a world championship age grouper, and um the fact that one of them, it's not my distance, my race, but as being an ally for others in the you know the community, was that it's being held in Abu Dhabi.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the reality is that is a complete that's a fucking logo.
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely a lot of the LGBT community, particularly gay men.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so you wouldn't necessarily be safe.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but the reality is yes, pride started as a riot, but it started as a riot from internally.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_01: But who are the lawmakers?
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Who are the change makers?
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_01: If we look at the people who have the power to change, it's the majority and it's the people that have the power.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if we look at financial advice, the people who currently have the biggest whole in financial services are cisgendered white heterosexual men.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yes, we need to step up and be brave and say, hey, this is me.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of why I am openly doing this with you.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's why I'm talking about my own life experiences, it's why I am trying to be more brave.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, it's me saying equally, I can't, that won't change anything.
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_01: It will show other people that they're represented and representation matters.
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_01: But what it needs is it needs men to call out sexism.
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_01: That lads club culture in the office, it needs more than the angry lesbian feminist in the compliance office to come out and go, can you not?
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it needs men to call out that even simple sexist language, you know, the idea that a woman should be at the sink at home, it relies on starting at the bottom upwards.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_01: We need men to challenge language that is sexist.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_01: We need we need straight people to challenge homophobic language.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you see it all the time in offices, intentional or not, it's one thing me making a joke about being like a dike and driving a pickup truck, and it's a whole other thing about when straight men, you know, kind of use that sort of idea that, oh, well, she must be a lesbian in a derogatory manner.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when men call each other like gay names or don't be gay, so what you need first before people will be brave is that people need to feel that they can be brave.
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people need to feel that they can do that and it's safe to do so.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_00: The culture.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and yeah, and and and it's you know, when we talk as, for example, uh as women, and about, you know, this the last year has been huge around that, about the safety of women and violence towards women, yeah, it starts at the very, very bottom.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't start with the police officer who went out and raped and murdered a woman who's walking down the street on our own.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_01: It starts with when we look further back, with the WhatsApp conversations that were happening, the exchanges that were happening, that were lads banter, that were just in a group, that you know, it's harmless until it manifests itself greater.
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_01: To take those steps backwards, challenge language, challenge our own language.
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that I try and do on a regular basis.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_01: I try and challenge my own biases, my own stereotypes, my own perceptions of things.
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_01: I always, as much as I challenge others, I challenge myself as well.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do that.
• 1:22:55
  SPEAKER_00: I do a lot of challenging myself.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Self-awareness.
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's what it's about 100%.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, listen, I've could talk to you all day actually, but um, I need to bring this to an end.
• 1:23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I need I need to do the day job too.
• 1:23:07
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to do the day job.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not only running marathons every day, you're doing your day job as well.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's incredible.
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um super pleased that I got you on the podcast today.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Really interesting to talk to you.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely to meet you as well.
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I definitely want to keep lines of communication open with us because it's lots of things that I've got going on in the pipeline for Financial Plan of Life where we're bringing in diversity inclusivity workshops into firms.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like I said, I've just brought, um, just if anybody's listening, um, Talk Club Financial Plan of Life is going to be coming out soon, which is a free talk therapy service for men within the financial planning profession.
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And my goal is to get this um put into every major city in the UK and also worldwide have got financial planning firms worldwide that are interested in doing it.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fantastic charity.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_00: If they're they're stepping into talk therapy as well for being able to offer talk therapy for free to men that need it.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, instead of manning up, it's about opening up.
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that we can do to, as a financial planner, like that's part of what the business is about, bringing people into the profession, bringing the right people in and making a change in the profession as well.
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you're one of those people that are doing that.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you so much for sharing.
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Always happy, honestly, keep those lines of communication open.
• 1:24:13
  SPEAKER_01: If there's anything that I can do, whether that's even just asking questions and if there's a way that I can help people understand things better, you know, we have that uh opportunity to learn more.
• 1:24:25
  SPEAKER_01: The same way a financial planner explains really complicated investment concepts to your retail consumer.
• 1:24:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I can hopefully help others understand lots of complicated matters that we just might not know about.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you and also that it what's good for me is that I know that I know that I could pick up the phone to you and ask you a question where I might feel a bit silly um asking it.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I think sometimes it's that's why we don't ask the questions.
• 1:24:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's because we feel silly, you know, and we should and also sometimes we don't ask the questions because we think, oh, we wording them right.
• 1:24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Am I asking this right?
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know that like with me, uh it's one of my occupational hazards.
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's let's not be about the bush here.
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always going to answer the ask the question in the wrong way.
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_01: So spit it out, get rid of any of the small talk.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, ask me what exactly it is you want to know, and I'll give you any answer you want.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'll uh pick up the phone anytime to me.
• 1:25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always happy to have a chat.
• 1:25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, thanks for inviting me on.
• 1:25:21
  SPEAKER_01: It it means a lot and reaching out.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant, and good luck with your runs.
• 1:25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I know you're gonna do it.
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm gonna certainly put a contribution in there today for you, and I get that shared out so much.
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Brighton Marathon, 10th of April for the Victory Lap.
• 1:25:36
  SPEAKER_01: All right, cheers.
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining me.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, bye.