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Science Meets Skin with Dr. Jennifer Linder · The Aesthetic Report

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Aesthetic Report, a podcast for skincare professionals who want to grow in their careers by hearing directly from the individuals who have been there, done that, and are paving the future of their industry.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Join us for the latest in all things skincare, beauty, wellness, business, and more.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: From interviews with leading experts to the burning topics on your mind.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: The Aesthetic Report starts now.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Hello, hello, everybody, and welcome to the Aesthetic Report, a podcast by Dermoscope.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: I am your host, AIA president, and director of education, Michelle D.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: Allard Brenner.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: And the Aesthetic Report, as so many of you know, is for all of you skincare professionals who just really want to learn more about how to make it in the industry by hearing straight from our industry leaders with our best one-on-one interviews about all the latest dish on all things professional skincare.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: And today's guest is a true leader in dermatology and skin science.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: She's a board-certified dermatologist, fellowship-trained skincare surgeon, and clinical educator at UCSF.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: She is also the founder of Linder Health, a published author and a sought-after speaker.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: With a background in biomedical engineering and chemistry, she has spent decades bridging science, clinical care, and product innovation, including her past leadership with PCA skin.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: It's Dr.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: Jennifer Linder.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: Jennifer Linder, please welcome to us.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here and thanks for your time.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: I am so excited to be here.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: But I'm so excited to see you again.
2:17
SPEAKER_02: And not on the trade show floor where we got big heels on and everything else.
2:21
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of fun to go face to face.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking the exact same thing as you said that.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh my gosh, the trade show floors.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: And I know there's so many people still out there doing it, but my gosh, that was like our life for the longest time.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was what I always loved about it is that direct face-to-face connection.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: And but it's sort of this is the reason why I do love Instagram and stuff.
2:43
SPEAKER_02: It's getting those direct DMs and questions for people, doing podcasts like this, ways to communicate and connect.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: I think that's what drives all of us to what we're doing in the first place.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny because um we recently had a podcast that we're done, and I've done a presentation.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: It was, it was about communication.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like we we had a gap of a communication loss.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: And now it's like all starting to come back again.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: People want, they want to hear our voices, see our faces, and something that just makes things a little more personal again.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: Well, it makes it human.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think I think that's really the key to why we do all that we do is that human connection.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: I think this is the reason why I I've love aesthetics and aestheticians for so long.
3:27
SPEAKER_02: It's I always think about when somebody's there on the bed, it's touching, it's communicating, it's that eye to eye when you're doing the consult.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: And this is the way that we can be eye to eye with a greater community.
3:39
SPEAKER_02: This is how we communicate with each other now.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the humanness of it all.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: So, Dr.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: Linder, your I mean, your journey has been really unique.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: It's been very diverse.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's so many things out there that aestheticians can do.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: And when you look at from your medical background and aesthetics background and product background, I mean, engineering, chemistry, dermatology, clinical teaching, product development, how how do you approach skincare in a way that's uniquely yours?
4:13
SPEAKER_01: Because your background is so diverse.
4:15
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think when you sort of sum it up in the simplest form, you can say I'm kind of a nerdy girl.
4:21
unknown: Yep.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: It makes me happy, but it means that I have the ability to bring in the science, and I like to bring in under really high level.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: And I've been lucky enough to be working with the same team since about 2005.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: My team eventually followed me from PCA to Lender Health now, but I have Dr.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: Vakovich, who's been my organic chemist.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: I have Danae Marklin, who's been my head of education and my aesthetician, and like we work together as a team.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what the background is.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: It's realizing that I have these different ideas and different forms of information.
4:57
SPEAKER_02: And then I bring people in as well.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: And it's we we work in concert, but just like sorry, I'm getting verbose.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: So this is what happens when I've had three cups of coffee.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: Um is that it's taking that high-minded science and then bringing it into the empathy and the hands-on.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: So it's that human plus science piece that comes together and understanding what it means to bring in the touch, to bring in the nerdy science.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: Like I read PubMed for fun, like you know, Google Scholar, bring it on all day long.
5:29
SPEAKER_02: But I think it's really important that we, I like to say at Lender Health, we make things complex but not complicated.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what my personal goal is.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: I'll take all the sciencey nerdy stuff and guarantee you that I'm gonna have it the absolute best we possibly can.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: The fundamental idea is it's gonna work because the science is there.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: But then I want to be able to explain it and have it easy to use so that I understand the clinical side, I understand the product development side, the engineering, the chemistry, all these different things.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: But then what do we do so that when you're actually with your patient and client, that you know it's gonna work?
6:08
SPEAKER_02: Because trust is what it comes down to, right?
6:11
SPEAKER_02: Everything we do in our industry is about trust.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: If our client doesn't trust us, then it's not gonna work, right?
6:20
SPEAKER_02: But if you develop that relationship and it's there because the science is there and it's there because you know it's gonna work clinically and it's not gonna hurt and it's gonna be safe and all these things, that's the trust.
6:30
SPEAKER_02: So that's the way I kind of think about it.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: Is all that disparate, crazy stuff I've done in my background is to bring it together for trust so that when you come to me around product development, you know that you can trust what we put in the bottle so that when you recommend it or do it a procedure on your client, you can trust that it's gonna be there and it's gonna be good.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: So I I love what you said because you're very unique in the fact that, you know, generally um we're talking with estheticians and encouraging estheticians to understand that you have to know the skin, you have to know your product ingredients in order to be able to make product recommendations, to make treatment recommendations, because your ultimate goal, as you just said, is to create that bond and that trust with your customer.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: What I find so unique about your perspective is that you're also saying it from a doctor's perspective.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes estheticians and their doctors don't look at it the same way.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: The doctor hires the aesthetician, sends the tells the aesthetician what to do, and the doctors don't have that same perspective as the aestheticians do.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: And then you're also saying it from a product development standpoint, whereas product development is usually about retail and sell.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: And you you've taken all of that and put that into you know the core of how we try to how aestheticians try to understand their clients.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just think that's the coolest thing.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: I just, and it reinforces what we say to our aestheticians at the exact same time.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's it.
8:11
SPEAKER_02: It's like if we can all work together, we have the same goal, right?
8:15
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's about helping that patient and client get better for them to feel more confident.
8:21
SPEAKER_02: When they trust us, they'll do what we ask because it doesn't matter what we recommend if there's not that compliance there.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: And compliance only comes from trust.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: And so that's what it we've got to get back to.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: And that's where I think aestheticians are so important is that empathy they bring, the listening, the hands-on, the taking the time and really explaining it.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: Because let's be honest, I mean, I can call out my compatriots like we go too fast sometimes.
8:51
SPEAKER_02: We like don't take the time to realize, okay, how does it work into their life?
8:55
SPEAKER_02: What's really going on?
8:56
SPEAKER_02: Maybe you don't give them 30 things all at once.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: Like, let's make a plan.
9:00
SPEAKER_02: So it's a long-term relationship.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's where you got to bring all of that in together.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: So, in working with, I mean, how long did you have PCA skincare?
9:11
SPEAKER_02: So, PCA skincare started as Physicians Choice of Arizona in like 2005.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: And I like to say it's like for those of us that are old enough, the old Remington micro screen commercials for the Razors.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Like, I like the company so much I bought it.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: And that's basically what happened.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: I adored Margaret and Sarah, and the peels worked for me.
9:29
SPEAKER_02: I had melasma that I triggered during my laser fellowship.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: So that was back in 2005, that PCA became my full-time life.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: And then I put a practice next door and I was doing everything, as you know.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: And then 2018 is when PCA skin, like a student that goes off to college, like goes off and they have their own successes and their own failures, and they've got to figure it out.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: And it's been fun to watch it continue to grow.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: But it's it will always be my first child.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: I um there's still products at PCA, I still order, but I know the products are good.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: And that's, and I think because I love this industry so much, that's the reason why during COVID, when my original team and I are, of course, like stay tight, tight friends, right?
10:12
SPEAKER_02: And we were, dude, we do product development for fun, like literally mixing stuff in like making peels in my lab during COVID, because that's what we do to keep ourselves entertained.
10:24
SPEAKER_02: And they worked so well, we sort of decided there basically was a lot, we there were things that we sort of realized were missing, anyways.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: But I now I forgot the original question you just asked me.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm so sorry.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: No, you did answer it, but you kept going.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: So that's even better.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: No.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: So in working with PCA skin and now Linder Health, along with your your own medical practices, present and the past, looking back over the years, what is one lesson from guiding product development that has stayed with you in your clinical work today?
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Because those are, those are sort of I was gonna say they're they're two different areas, but I I guess they go together too when you're so committed to to making a difference with your products as well.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: But what is one thing that has just always stuck with you about product development and clinical work?
11:17
SPEAKER_02: So I think that what it comes down to is it really should be multifactorial.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: I think in my personal belief system, the 18-step skincare routine doesn't work.
11:28
SPEAKER_02: So you need to make something that is really does multiple things.
11:32
SPEAKER_02: And that comes down to not only understanding the ingredients, but more importantly, what we call the vehicle.
11:38
SPEAKER_02: And I think this is the thing that is often not understood.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I love the fact that the industry has really gotten into understanding ingredients because I think, as you and I both know, the science has improved so much over the last couple of decades.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: But the thing that I think people don't necessarily realize is it's the product as a whole that makes things come together.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: So it's the vehicle, how does it get into the skin?
12:03
SPEAKER_02: It is the ingredients themselves, but you can put ingredients in there and they won't necessarily do anything.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: And it's not just about the concentration, but it's how that molecule is, whether or not it's lipophilic, lipophilic, an ability to do both.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: There are additional ingredients in there that acts like the vehicle.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: We actually call that in dermatology the vehicle because you literally put like an ingredient in a car that like can take it through into the skin.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: And that's how you get through this protective layer of the skin and thinking about it as an active organ that we're interacting with, right?
12:37
SPEAKER_02: It's it's a it's an environment.
12:40
SPEAKER_02: So it's all that multifactorial Mel U that works together to make things work really well, and you have to consider all those things to make something work.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: So just because something's listed on the ingredient list doesn't mean it's doing what you think it's going to.
12:57
SPEAKER_02: And you that's where you kind of have to trust your product developers, the companies you're working with.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: And again, it comes back to trust, right?
13:05
SPEAKER_02: That's also the reason why I tell people, like, yeah, you may be able to go buy a product, you know, for a few dollars that has an ingredient in it that you want, but likely it's not in there.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: And the concentration with the vehicle is going to do the things that you want to do.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's better to get the great right product and use less of it.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to like whim in 30 different things, just right.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: Buy one multi-factorial great thing.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's interesting because I often have especially newer aestheticians, but even some of our seasoned aestheticians that don't have that full understanding, I say the very the important questions to ask when you're choosing a product line and they're they're making particular claims is how.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: If something is brightening the skin, how?
13:53
SPEAKER_01: If it's increasing collagen, like how.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: And if you understand the physiology of the skin, you understand that, you know, making that happen is really hard to do, either any of those things.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: That is, it's really, I mean, it's right up there with you know, 95% impossible to do unless you have the proper ingredient or the proper vehicle.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: So you have to ask why and how and get an answer that makes sense.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: You're spot on.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: All right.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: So, so listen, so today, you know, it's like like how did you understand for so long?
14:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right, right.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
14:30
unknown: I know.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: I read a lot of books.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: So you want to talk about the latest in skin aging science and longevity, particularly senolytic and senomorphic products.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: And this is like the new hot topic.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: These are products and how they relate to senescent or zombie cells in the skin.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: So our listeners out there are probably saying, you know what, Michelle, what in the world are you talking about?
14:54
SPEAKER_01: I have absolutely no idea.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: So, will you take a minute and describe the senescent or zombie cells in the skin?
15:02
SPEAKER_01: What are they?
15:03
SPEAKER_01: What are they there for?
15:04
SPEAKER_01: What are they doing?
15:06
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so the one thing, obviously, especially around Halloween time, zombie cells.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: This is the I think this is the hottest topic across medicine in general.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: Senescent cells.
15:19
SPEAKER_02: So senescent cells are these cells that are created during inflammation and aging.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: We the latest studies show that they are one of the most important parts of the aging process, especially when combined with inflammation.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: There's things called the 12 harm marks of aging.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: I can talk about this for six hours.
15:41
SPEAKER_02: But the big takeaway for you guys is zombie cells.
15:45
SPEAKER_02: So when a cell ages, it can either naturally be recycled through something called apoptosis, or it goes into this state called senesis or a zombie cell.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: So why do we call them zombie cells?
15:58
SPEAKER_02: Because it's a cell that is using up resources.
16:01
SPEAKER_02: So it's still eating the oxygen and the food and all the good things that we put into our body, but it's no longer dividing, it's no longer making new healthy baby cells, which means your skin is no longer turning over in a beautiful way that you want it to in a youthful way.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Instead, it's just sitting there and it's leaking out the stuff called SASP.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: Basically, just think about it as the zombie cell converting the cells around it into more zombie cells.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: So let me, all that Greek I just said is to say when you age, especially when you're exposed to inflammation, the cells make zombie cells instead of naturally recycling.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: And more importantly, the worst part is they turn the cells around them that are healthy cells into more zombies.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: And they keep using up all the resources, resources, all the good things you're doing, and just turning more and more cells into zombie cells, which means you're aging more and more and more.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: And this is the reason why various different systems slow down, you know, and this is also the reason why we talk about inflammation, right?
17:05
SPEAKER_02: And so that's all how it kind of works together.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: And during COVID, this became even more apparent.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: And it's part of the reason why COVID as a virus was so destructive, right?
17:17
SPEAKER_02: It's because it was triggering so much inflammation.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: And so that's the reason why I kind of got obsessed with the whole idea of senescence, longevity, and then mitochondria health was mitochondria cells are the cells that make energy.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: So you kind of need to control inflammation and increase more energy for your cells to healthy mitochondria to keep on a pathway to healthy aging rather than destructive aging.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: So before we go into to the two other topics, to senolytic, xenomorphic, and explaining that, I want our listeners, you know what, we hear the word inflammation.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: And when we hear inflammation, it triggers such a strong negative uh reaction.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: But correct me if I'm wrong.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, inflammation, we are inundated with it.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're inundated.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: It's it surrounds us in our environment and the foods that we eat and our stress levels.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's not like you know, it's one or two things that we can say, oh, you stop this and you stop it.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: You almost can't stop it, correct?
18:26
SPEAKER_01: That is correct.
18:27
SPEAKER_02: So we live in a world that is constantly inundating us.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: We got we all of us know intrinsic aging, extrinsic aging, right?
18:36
SPEAKER_02: Extrinsic aging are all those things from, as you said, pollution, oxidants, the sun, the natural aging process, just so many different things, right?
18:48
SPEAKER_02: And inflammation is gonna be happening all the time.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: So what we want to do is give our bodies and cells the most bandwidth to fight off against inflammation, which is the reason why antioxidants became such a big hot topic, and like everybody knows you gotta have antioxidants in your skincare.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: But you so you know that it's going to be there, but what we want to do is we want to control how much inflammation we expose ourselves to as much as we can.
19:18
SPEAKER_02: Now, why this is important is because when much of what we do is about controlling the healing process of the skin, right?
19:32
SPEAKER_02: So every every procedure we do, like treatments, all these different things, is about harnessing healthy skin healing.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: So we often do just a tiny bit of damage to something, then to trigger the body to kind of wake up and start the healing process and make more collagen and more cell turnover and trigger different cytokines.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: So cytokines are part of the inflammation process.
19:59
SPEAKER_02: But what has really happened over the last few years is an understanding that we don't want to go too far into the healing process and trigger too much inflammation.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: Instead, we want to find a sweet spot where we're doing a little bit, and then we can trigger the body to do wound healing without as much inflammation.
20:19
SPEAKER_02: So it's like get as much of the good stuff without doing too much too far.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: So the reason why that's important is I think for too long people were thinking more is a good thing.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: You gotta go deeper, more aggressive lasers, lower pHs and pills, you know, more, more, more, more.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: It's like, no, take it back a notch.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: You want to actually get to a sweet spot instead so that you're not turning as much inflammation.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
20:50
SPEAKER_01: Makes perfect sense.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: It makes perfect sense.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so now let's walk into synolytics and cenomorphics.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: So the easiest way to explain this is a senalytic means that you're basically killing the zombie cell.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: And a cinemorphic means that you're basically putting a big hug around it and putting like a fire blanket on top of the fire and just tamping it out, but you're not actually able to kill the cell.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: And it's it's it's more semantics than anything else.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: But when you're a nerd like me, words are important, but it means that you take advantage of both of these characteristics when you're doing product development so that you get the best possible benefit of both killing the synolytic cells as well like as well as calming them down so they don't turn the surrounding zombie cells into more, the surrounding cells into more zombies.
21:43
SPEAKER_02: Basically, you stop its ability to create more zombies.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: So I have two questions for you.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: Senescent cells, are they located in one particular layer of the epidermis?
21:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, do we only find them, you know, in in the lower layer?
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Do they move from the layer up everywhere?
22:02
SPEAKER_01: Everywhere.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: All layers potentially.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: So of course, the higher you go up, the more you're gonna get.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: But yes, you can find them throughout.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: So in product development, when you're utilizing either senolytic or xenomorphic products, and um they perform whatever their function, what their function is, whether it's to wrap their arms around or be done with the zombie altogether.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: What then happens to that cell?
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Does it simply continue through the cell renew through the exfoliation and cell turnover process and just eventually die off the come off the surface of the skin?
22:38
SPEAKER_02: So basically what it does is you then kind of go down a different pathway called apoptosis, which then means that your body is able to recycle the cells so that you're using up still all the good proteins and takes it away through all the different ways.
22:53
SPEAKER_02: So it does both everything from going, just as you said, as we know, cell turnover, but there's other ways that we break down cells as well.
23:01
SPEAKER_02: So basically, every way that a normal cell would be broken down, we do.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: Got it, got it.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: That makes perfect sense.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: So but cell turnover is the easiest way to get things to move along.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: That's like sort of the natural way.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: That's sort of just okay.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: So in in either of those situations, too, what I I understand.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: So the uh you clearly, or you made it very clear, you know, what the objective and their role is.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: Is there a downside to the skin?
23:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, is there is there a negative to the skin, such as, you know, what excess use of acids or retinols?
23:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, we get the negatives of irritation, redness, skin sensitivity, dryness.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Is there a downside to these two, these two things, ingredients being used in products?
23:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: And that's where we come back to inflammation.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: So if things are really irritated, that's usually a sign that we've gone a little too far, right?
24:01
SPEAKER_02: So, yes, there's a time and a place, depending on what you're trying to do.
24:06
SPEAKER_02: But what I'm really trying to teach people is to step it back a notch and be able to trigger that cell turnover without the inflammation.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Because as soon as you have inflammation, you're triggering the potential for post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: It makes it honestly more uncomfortable for the patient.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: And we all know if somebody starts peeling on a peel skin, you know, when it's that red skin underneath there and it's raw, that's that's like inflammation and irritation there.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: It's possible to get all the benefits of peels that all of us have loved forever.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: I mean, guys, I have been doing peel product development for 25 years.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: I deeply believe in one.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: I had one yesterday.
24:44
unknown: Yeah.
24:45
SPEAKER_02: But we can do it better now.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: And this is why I like to say it's formulating for the future.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: There's ways to take modern science and know that we can do it in a little different way and get better results with all the good stuff.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: You still get all the benefits, but you don't have to go to the same downtime.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: So, would you then say that their performance objectives are similar to non-inflammatory peels?
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Would you put them in and I'm trying to think of a non-inflammatory peel, uh, maybe a malik.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm trying to make it so that our listeners can do some comparison here.
25:20
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly what I'm talking about.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: And that is actually the reason why.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: So, like, so myself and Dr.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: Bakovich, when we were formulating mandelic acid, is actually the basis of a lot of our peels because it's non-inflammatory.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: And the same thing with salicylic acid.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: So, salicylic acid is the perfect example.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: Salicylic acid, remember, aspirin is salicylic acid, right?
25:43
SPEAKER_02: So it's a natural anti-inflammatory.
25:46
SPEAKER_02: The thing that I often find people do is they do higher percentages than you need to do, and then all that stuff you see in this, it's just the salt precipitated out.
25:53
SPEAKER_02: You don't need to put that much on there to have the benefit.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: And this is the reason why blends of peels are so nice, is you can take the benefits of the different types of acids and get them to work together.
26:06
SPEAKER_02: And then if you put something in, when I do product development for Lender Health, we put an ingredient in there.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: We were talking about vehicles before, a vehicle called transcutal and some other ones as well that are proprietary that allow the peels to go in deeper without having to use a lower pH or a higher percentage to get increased penetration.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: The vehicle actually is what gets the peels to go in deeper to get to where I want to have the benefits without having to have the downside and turn inflammation as a result of a lower, more acidic pH.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: That makes perfect sense.
26:55
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27:41
SPEAKER_01: So that kind of leads into my next question was what are some other examples of xenomorphic or senolytic ingredients aside from salicylic, mandelic?
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Are there others that just jump off the top of your head that our listeners would be familiar with?
27:57
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so two things that I and it's when they work together synergistically.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: Remember, synergistically means that you take one thing and you combine it with something else, and instead of one and one being two, it's one and one equals five.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: So if you put the right type of hyaluronic acid with niacin, you actually get them to work as a cinemorphic.
28:19
SPEAKER_02: So they actually are able to calm down senescent cells and get those surrounding zombie cells to not be produced.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: So what I love to do is do a peel, and I like to do this peel so I was talking about a sweet spot before.
28:35
SPEAKER_02: And a sweet spot of a pH between three and three point five.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: This is super important.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: It's the pH, is part of what helps develop that sweet spot.
28:44
SPEAKER_02: And these studies came out in the last couple years that actually showed that in that sweet spot they are synolytic.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: In other words, they are killing the zombie cell.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: How cool is that?
28:54
SPEAKER_02: That's and it's one of these things that again shows you, we've known all along that peels have magic in them, right?
29:00
SPEAKER_02: But we didn't necessarily, we thought it was, oh, it's the cell turnover, we're doing things to trigger the fibroast production, but we actually know there's more to it.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: And in that sweet spot of a pH, it is about killing those zombie cells.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: So what I like to do is do the peel.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: And then because the skin is not inflammatory, I can put additional products on them, like I have this new product that I love that is a combination that includes niacinamide and the right types of hyaluronic acids to be cinomorphic.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: So you're getting even more of a benefit.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: Now, you said something that is really important, and I'm gonna back up for all of our listeners that are out there paying attention to this because we don't pay attention very well.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: So you said ingredients, and people are hearing mandelic acid, salicylic acid, hyaluronic acid, niacinamide, or they're hearing these things and thinking, oh, here are the ingredients.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: But I think what you also said is it's about a synergistic relationship.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: It's also about pH and these are the big questions that our SDs and people that are out there are going to have to ask because those ingredients by themselves are not synolytics and xenomorphic ingredients.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: They need to be they need to be formulated the proper way.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: And that is about how it's how everything comes together.
30:21
SPEAKER_02: I like to say when you're I like to bake a lot and when you take eggs and flour and sugar and some milk and stuff and you combine it together, you can make a million different types of breads or cakes, right?
30:34
SPEAKER_02: Like it's how the whole thing comes together, how you cook it, how you make it, what, what other how much you know baking powder you put in that results in what the end result is.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: So yes, a salicylic acid feels great as is a medallic and as a malic all these different things that we know but it is how it comes together as a whole and that's where the chemistry comes into play.
30:56
SPEAKER_02: And that's where it's like um it's like it's also like a spaghetti sauce.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: How you cook it makes all the difference in the way it tastes.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: Makes perfect sense.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned briefly but LinderHealth is launching a five in one ultra adaptive concentrate.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: And was that what you just made reference to a favorite product of yours?
31:15
SPEAKER_02: That is my favorite product.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: I am so proud of this.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: It is it's like a culmination of all my nerdiness put together right so of course peels I love peels and treatments and the fact that you can combine them together with different modalities but I also wanted people to be able to do something they could add on to the treatment and more importantly something they could then have the patient take home with them.
31:37
SPEAKER_02: So it's called a five and one because it does lots of different things.
31:43
SPEAKER_02: I feel like we got to respect people's dollars, right?
31:47
SPEAKER_02: And so I would rather have somebody use one amazing thing that does lots of different things and a little bit goes a long way.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: I do a lot of Botox and fillers I've been an injector for all the different companies forever and it's always like okay how do we get the magic in a bottle that's kind of like a neurotoxin and in Botox or fillers and this is the closest thing I found because it has a geraline.
32:10
SPEAKER_02: We all know what aduline is that's that peptide that works on the same receptor as Botox but it also has five different types of hyaluronic acid one of which is small enough it triggers your body to actually start making its own hyaluronic acid from the inside out.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Cool right that's really cool.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: Really cool that it has another one that acts as a water reservoir inside the cell and it actually gets in there and hydrates intercellular.
32:38
SPEAKER_02: So you're hydrating inside the cell then you of course got the things that we know HAs do, which is forms a beautiful film on top.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: And then the hyaluronics we have additional kind that's cross-linked so it's even doing more 3D structural stuff.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: That's fantastic two of the pieces.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: Of course there's natural moisturizing factor and what we're doing to prevent um water loss.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: It supports the microbiome so super important to think about these things.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: We all know you got to think about that.
33:08
SPEAKER_02: And then it's ultra adaptive which means if it is hot and humid allows the skin to breathe and if it's dry or cold it becomes more of an occlusive.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean how interesting is that that you could have an occlusive and a and a um hyaluronic what what am I thinking occlusive and a um humectant oh my gosh see like the brains all in one product that adapts to what's going on in the environment.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: So there's just it does lots of different things.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: And then of course the thing that we're talking about today is it does calm down those zombie cells.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: And that's what is super unique, super special is all these different ingredients working synergistically together to basically calm down the zombie cells you get that and that's the secret in the sauce that makes the whole thing even work that much better that synergistic approach.
34:00
SPEAKER_02: Well and I would have to assume then with but with its adaptive abilities at the same time every skin type correct every skin type I have a teenage daughter naturally she has acne that's of course under control because her mom's a dermatologist right but she uses this I use it yeah it sort of I love to put it on my cuticles so I love to I I'm a big believer when anybody gets a face treatment I always do their hands and necks too and I like to like massage it into their their little nails as well.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: But it sort of works for everybody every skin type and that's what's kind of unique and makes it easier.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: So I want to clarify to all of our listeners because I know everybody out there is also right saying like how do I get my hands on this?
34:45
SPEAKER_01: How do I do this?
34:46
SPEAKER_01: So is Linder Health Linder Health is is obviously your business.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's a product develop you're doing product development as well is it are your products specific to your business or anybody can estheticians can purchase them for their businesses.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Are you doctor's offices only?
35:08
SPEAKER_02: Great question.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: So I'm a big believer in the way to get people products in people's hands is through the esthetician and the doctor's office in the medical spa because I love the idea of people having a conversation with the human being to explain why they want to do all this stuff.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: So the best way for an esthetician is for them to get a hold of us at Lender Health.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: You can reach out to me on my socials which is just JenniferLinder FD or our socials which is LinderHealth.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: But yeah this is my this is my 2.0 skincare company.
35:38
SPEAKER_02: So basically it started out with I wanted to do chemical peels again because I really saw that nobody was doing it.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: And Dr.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: Vakovich and Danae and I all took all of our knowledge from working all over the world because PCA was in 72 countries and combining it together with all the nerdy science to make a better peel company and you can combine it with any treatment.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: You can even do it with steam.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: They can go and do exercise immediately afterwards you can do it with microneedling and even laser as long as the skin comes down to a normal temperature.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: So it's so much more flexible and adaptive to treatments you're already doing.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: We don't have minimums because I believe you make it easy for the esthetician, they're the expert to bring it into their office they know what they're doing and it can be combined with things you're already doing to make customized treatments.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: And then the idea is that the skincare side is for you to be able to you know sell and teach to your patients and clients and we do drop shipping I'm all about how do I make it easier for the clinician because I've been a clinician for so long.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely and I worked with literally you know tens of thousands of clinicians and so I'm always trying to listen and be like okay what are the pain points yeah and so it's like I try to make it so a treatment like if you add a Linder peel to any treatment you're doing it can be a dollar a layer.
37:06
SPEAKER_02: So in other words like you're doing a full treatment six dollars for your treatment you're just adding a layer on after doing a microneedling a dollar.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: I like to call it the dollar glow up.
37:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah and it's sort of just it's something simple you can do that allows you to customize treatments and we're fun we're always looking for new things to do and sort of like to make it better outcomes for the patient and makes our lives as clinicians a little easier too.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely so if a skincare professional wants to and this is kind of a big word but future proof their career while staying results focused because we're a little all over the board with you know between TikTok and social media and everything that's out there in your opinion where should they invest their inner energy and their learning right now what do you feel is is one of the most important focal areas okay so obviously I'm a little biased around the idea of inflammation and senocils which is longevity.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: The other thing I would add to that mail you would be mitochondrial health and that was also naturally played into what we were doing in terms of product development.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: So learn about those things so that when people are talking about wellness and longevity, you're like, yeah, I see you I understand I can help you with that.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: And then you can add, you know, that's the reason why we develop lender health peels is so that you could add it onto treatments you're already doing to be able to add that component to what your practice is already doing.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: And it allows you to differentiate yourself from the person down the street as well right so it's constantly learning I think is the most important thing you can do.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: And also you know check out your sources I mean the crazy things I hear on TikTok like it's amazing.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: I know.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: But but use it as a you know you know if you're seeing it your patients and clients are seeing it.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: So educate yourselves.
39:00
SPEAKER_02: Find reliable sources to educate yourself on one of the things we did is when PCA was no longer my direct everyday baby is started creating a resource for aestheticians and clinicians around skin education.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: And that's where we started first.
39:18
SPEAKER_02: And then naturally when I decided to do lender health we rolled that into lender health so anybody who becomes a partner and to be a partner with us you just need to get one product.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: That is it like it's sort of like easy I'm all about the easy button you open up a door to all of our education and then of course turn to people like you I mean this is what you're doing is you're educating every single day with experts.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: Dermoscope has always been such an amazing source 50 years of information.
39:46
SPEAKER_02: Like learn the history go back and educate yourself go dude I still have old articles like I have my old magazines like I pull these things out sometimes.
39:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm cleaning out a storage unit I found an article I wrote in Dermoscope from 2008 yesterday.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God that's awesome.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: Isn't that I mean like it's sort of like an antique yeah and a lot of the stuff is still relevant right it is because you know I mean we learn more about I mean we're talking about senescent cells and the mitochondria but bottom line the physiology of the skin doesn't change it it doesn't change it just reacts differently to our environment and to new ingredients.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: But when you have that core understanding as you referenced several times you can explain that to your clients and your patients and it builds their confidence their trust and and you have a client for life.
40:44
SPEAKER_02: Well and the thing I've always found is all of us get into this field because we're natural caregivers.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: That's the reason why we do this in the first place.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: Like most of us are not natural salespeople to start off with like that's not and so for me I never really enjoyed the sales side of it but what I enjoyed was educating.
41:01
SPEAKER_02: Right.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: And that includes educating my client right like and so that's what I say is I personally believe is the best way to sell is by actually teaching.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: Because then it's coming from the most authentic place.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: You know it's actually going to do something and if you do that and you tell somebody why they're doing it and while they're on the bed they showed up to your office because they want to learn and get better.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: So use the opportunity to talk to them and say and and I often ask the question are you are you wanting just to chill out or are you wanting me to also teach you a little bit about this and most of the time they're there because they want their skin to be better.
41:42
SPEAKER_02: And so it's like an opportunity to explain okay this is why and then they're engaged and then they're coming back to you and they're trusting you and they are compliant and they're going to do what you ask.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: So the other thing I like to do is I like people to engage more frequently it's one of the reasons why because the peels are not inflammatory you they can come in every two weeks which means that you can get them better faster.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: And the other thing is because in the ingredients we put together is they're not peeling like sheets like skin.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: It's coming off like little teeny bits like dandruff.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: So I tell them you're getting the same amount of change that you would with the traditional peel but it's coming off in tiny little bits which means it doesn't have the same social downtime.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely just makes it that much easier.
42:25
SPEAKER_01: And then they trust me and it doesn't hurt is the other thing it's all that trust right yep yep yeah and those you know you don't run the side effects you don't have you know the ramifications of them either going out in the sun or peeling at their face or using the wrong products or grabbing a scrub.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: That's I just that's fantastic.
42:45
SPEAKER_01: And I love what you said.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: I am I'm hoping that there's hundreds of my graduates out there that are listening to this because we say all of those things about we're not selling we're educating and we tell them that all the time I and I'm I feel like like somebody else's parent just told my child that here's how they should do it and now they're gonna listen.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what happens isn't it true?
43:05
SPEAKER_02: Yes yes and it's just it also feels right in our heart right like when I know that I'm teaching somebody that that feels good too and I know I'm helping them get better.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: And it just is it triggers a different part of my brain and and that's why we do this is we're caregivers right that's the whole point.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: And then it becomes exciting you get excited you just you're exciting you know you you lend that to them at the same time and they're just they're excited.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's it's the coolest it is so Dr.
43:38
SPEAKER_02: Linder before um we have to end every session with a game but before that is there anything that you and I did not cover is there anything that I didn't ask that you want our listeners to know so one of the things I think I want to share is I feel such empathy for when you have a client comes in and you spend a lot of time teaching them, educating them and then if you can't if you had to change their skincare then they leave and then you potentially lose them right so one of the other things we wanted to do when we developed these products was you can do a procedure the same day you do your consultation which means because you don't have to change their skincare routine it doesn't matter if they're on a retina whatever they're doing they can be on Accutane one of our treatments.
44:28
SPEAKER_02: We have treatments for literally everything and that means it for me it eases my scheduling so that I just assume if somebody's coming to me they're going to get a treatment because that's why they're coming is to get help.
44:43
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: So not having to do that consultation separate from the first treatment was everything to me in terms and it was really important to me that we figure out how to do that.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: And that was one of the original ideas of why we wanted to be able to control inflammation was to be able to make that happen.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: That's fantastic.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: Love it all right are you ready for a game I'm ready for a game okay all right so it's called firsts and favorites so I have five questions for you.
45:13
SPEAKER_01: Okay and I'm going to ask the question and you have to quick fire an answer as fast as you possibly can without giving it a whole lot of thought.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: You ready?
45:22
SPEAKER_01: Here we go okay the first one the first skincare product you ever loved aquafore.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: Yep favorite ingredient to teach about vitamin C.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: First professional conference you attended that would be the American Academy of dermatology a favorite thing about working with estheticians?
45:42
SPEAKER_01: How kind hearted they are your favorite aha moment in dermatology transurpidermal water loss.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: Oh oh that's a great one that's a look at that that was fantastic I think that was one of the best games we've had those were great answers those were great answers.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: Dr.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: Linder thank you so much for your time today I think this information was fantastic and it's just it's so important to learn about what's hot and what's new.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: And I mean you clearly I mean not only just have an understanding there's a reasoning behind why you've done this and you're coming from so many different perspectives and I think that's really unique and rare.
46:22
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for sharing all of that.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: I loved our conversation I would love to have more conversations in the future I it's so good to just see you eye to eye again.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: I know it's been a long time and I'm like oh my gosh our hour is almost up I've got so many more things but thank you so much and to all of our listeners that are out there thank you for spending an hour with us on the aesthetic report we are thrilled to have you here um our podcast love you Dermoscope loves you and we'll see y'all next time take care everybody bye take care everyone thank you for listening to the aesthetic report be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you'll never miss an episode.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: If you love the show leave a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and tell all your SD besties to give us a listen.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: And don't forget the education doesn't stop here.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: The aesthetic report is one of many platforms offered by Dermoscope.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: Visit dermascope.com for more education and industry news from the Authority on professional skincare.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: Stay tuned and we'll see you next time for another episode of the Aesthetic Report