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Death Row Club: Not Your Typical WHODUNNIT? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The Death Row Club. Let that sink in. The Death
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Row Club. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us. The Death
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Row Club. Is it real or is it just a
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: book by Victoria Vasquez? Now, this is a book of fiction.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: In my world, I deal with real serial killers like
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Ted Bundy.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I still have a sense of disbelief that this man
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: that I loved and that was seemed to be such
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: a great guy could go out and do such horrific things.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: It's just so hard to accept.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Liz, I'm sure you've asked yourself, why not me?
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Completely. And I hate to even say this because it
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: makes him sound normal, but I do think he loved us.
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: I heard a story told by one of his attorneys.
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: He said Ted told him that he would play games
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: with mice and he would let some of them live
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: and make some of them die. And to me, that's us.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at ABC. Isn't he charming? Well,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: he's having supper with Satan now. How many victims.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Did he have?
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: I don't think we really have an accurate body count,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: which leads me to another real-life serial killer. Let's just
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: go with Israel Keys.
• 1:40
  Speaker 5: I was out looking for trouble. I had that place
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: up there staked out on actually two or three nights.
• 1:49
  Speaker 5: And then I had a park. a couple of parks
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: here in town that I could ride my bike to
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: and those staked out. Yeah, but there's still a couple
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: gallons of Drano and a shovel stashed up there. Back
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: when I was.
• 2:07
  Speaker 6: Smart, I would.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Do it.
• 2:15
  Speaker 7: I would let them come to me. This remote area.
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: Kind of go to a remote area that's not anywhere
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: near where.
• 2:29
  Speaker 8: You live.
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: But that other people go to as well you might
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: not get exactly what you're not much to choose from
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: in a manner of speaking but there's also no witnesses
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: really there's.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Nobody else around as a matter of fact and we
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: think His last victim's murderer, that would be Samantha Koenig,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: a beautiful young Alaskan barista who was kidnapped from her
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: coffee stand. He actually sewed her eyes open, applied makeup.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: This is, of course, after sex assaulting her for hours
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: and hours and hours, turning up the music really loudly
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: so no one would hear her screaming. He sews her
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: eyes open. covers her in makeup and takes a blurry
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: photo and actually asks for ransom. That's Israel Keys. Kill
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: kits all around the country. He specifically liked to hunt
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: at parks, at RV camps, at camping sites. Animal. I
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: don't have to think really hard to come up with BTK, bind, torture, kill,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: the dog catcher, Dennis Rader.
• 3:47
  Speaker 9: I was going to have sexual fantasy, so I brought
• 3:50
  Speaker 9: my hit kit, and lo and behold, her car was there.
• 3:55
  Speaker 9: I thought, gee, she's not supposed to be home. So
• 3:58
  Speaker 9: I very carefully snuck into the house, kind of like
• 4:01
  Speaker 9: a cat burglar, and after checking the house, she wasn't there.
• 4:05
  Speaker 9: So about that time, the doors rattled, so... I went
• 4:11
  Speaker 9: back to one of the bedrooms and hid back there
• 4:12
  Speaker 9: in one of the bedrooms. I waited until wee hours
• 4:15
  Speaker 9: in the morning and then proceeded to sneak into her
• 4:19
  Speaker 9: bedroom and put the lights on what looked like, I think,
• 4:23
  Speaker 9: the bathroom lights. I just didn't want to flip her
• 4:24
  Speaker 9: lights on. And she screamed and I jumped on the
• 4:28
  Speaker 9: bed and strangled her manually.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at KWCH. And then, of course,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: let me just throw in for good measure Brian Koberger.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: who murdered four beautiful, young Idaho students. I will never
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: forget this 911 call.
• 4:44
  Speaker 9: Tell me exactly what's going.
• 4:47
  Speaker 10: On.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Um, one of our, one of the roommates has passed out,
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: and she was drunk last night, and she's not waking up.
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  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 4:55
  Speaker 7: Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night.
• 4:57
  Speaker 11: Yeah, I.
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: Hi, this is... And are you with the patient?
• 5:01
  Speaker 7: Okay, I need someone to keep the phone.
• 5:03
  Speaker 9: Stop passing it around.
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: Can I just tell you what happened, pretty much?
• 5:07
  Speaker 8: What is going on currently?
• 5:09
  Speaker 7: Is someone passed out right now?
• 5:12
  Speaker 6: I don't really know, but pretty much at 4 a.m. Okay,
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: I need to know what's going on right now if
• 5:16
  Speaker 6: someone is passed out.
• 5:17
  Speaker 7: Can you find that out?
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll come.
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: Come on, but we've got to go check.
• 5:23
  Speaker 5: But we have to.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: If you pass out.
• 5:30
  Speaker 12: Okay.
• 5:30
  Speaker 6: One moment.
• 5:31
  Speaker 10: I'm getting help started that way.
• 5:34
  Speaker 13: Okay.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: The list goes on and on. The Death Row Club.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Victoria Vasquez joining us. First question.
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  Speaker 9: Why?
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  Speaker 13: So, first of all, thank you so much for having me, Nancy.
• 6:22
  Speaker 11: I was.
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  Speaker 13: Fascinated by the idea of being linked to a family
• 6:34
  Speaker 13: member and living under kind of the pall of what
• 6:38
  Speaker 13: they've done. While I personally do not have any family
• 6:42
  Speaker 13: members who are serial killers, this was in some way
• 6:46
  Speaker 13: inspired by- Wait a minute.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on, Nellie. You sure? You sure?
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: You don't have a family member or relative that's a
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: serial killer? I'm so not kidding right now. I want
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: you to listen to this. There's a knock on my door.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: And he said he was the FBI.
• 7:02
  Speaker 12: And then he says, your dad has been arrested as BTK.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: And I was like, I think I'm going to pass out.
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: I think reality was starting to creep in. And I
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: felt my stomach just twist, realizing it could be true.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at ABC, Dennis Radar, just evil,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: evil incarnate. That's his daughter who is.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Amazing, and living with exactly what Victoria Vasquez is writing about.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: And this book, I got to tell you, is amazing.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: I'm giving her a hard time. Like, why would you
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: want to write about a serial killer? They're odious. They're horrible.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: They're the devil. But what you're writing about, Victoria, is
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: about family that can't believe it, they're suspicious, and what
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: it does to them. And, you know, a lot of people, Victoria,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: they're like, hey, that's the daughter of a serial killer.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Screw her. But these family members are innocent. They're innocent.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: And then their whole world is just shattered when they
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: find out they've been living with evil. Okay, where'd you
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: get the idea?
• 8:23
  Speaker 13: So this was in part inspired by something that happened
• 8:28
  Speaker 13: to me. When I was in high school, I had
• 8:33
  Speaker 13: a teacher that I was very, very close with. But
• 8:36
  Speaker 13: then two years after I graduated, it was revealed that
• 8:41
  Speaker 13: he was a dangerous sexual predator. He was arrested in
• 8:45
  Speaker 13: a car with a 15-year-old student. And when I found out,
• 8:50
  Speaker 13: I was completely blindsided. I had absolutely no idea. Again,
• 8:54
  Speaker 13: we were so close. He inspired me to want to
• 8:57
  Speaker 13: become a teacher myself. And all I could think was
• 9:00
  Speaker 13: if I was so caught out by my teacher turning
• 9:05
  Speaker 13: out to be a predator, then what must it be
• 9:07
  Speaker 13: like when the police come knocking on your door telling
• 9:10
  Speaker 13: you about all of the women that your father has murdered?
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, my stars. Oh, my stars. You know what you're
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: reminding me of? It reminded me of a murder case
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: I prosecuted, and one of my star witnesses, I had
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: no eyewitness to the murder. And you're about to hear
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: I had to dig the bottom of the barrel, but
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: you've got to take your witnesses as you find them.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: I found a witness, not an eyewitness, but that could
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: help me in the timeline, who was a convicted rapist. Now,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: his story was very different than what the record reflected.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: But I had to drive all around Atlanta with this
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: guy in my beat up Honda day and night trying
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: to take pictures, him to show me where this happened,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: where that happened. And he testified. And there were times
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: in the car, Victoria Vasquez, I would glance over and go,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: I can't believe this guy is a convicted rapist. It
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: was hard to take in, but I knew it to
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: be true. Okay, so that's where you got the idea.
• 10:18
  Speaker 13: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that just what you're saying, Nicola,
• 10:22
  Speaker 13: the main character in the novel, even after her father's arrested,
• 10:26
  Speaker 13: even after she knows that her father murdered five women,
• 10:30
  Speaker 13: including her best friend from college, she still loves him.
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  Speaker 13: That's not something you can just turn off that easily.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 13: I mean, I still, after my teacher was arrested, I
• 10:42
  Speaker 13: still have fond thoughts about him, despite the fact that
• 10:45
  Speaker 13: I know he has done disgusting things. It's hard to
• 10:49
  Speaker 13: flip that switch mentally and be like, this person who
• 10:53
  Speaker 13: was so important to me is actually, like you're saying,
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  Speaker 13: is sick, is a predator, is a disgusting human being.
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  Speaker 1: It's hard.
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  Speaker 5: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to go to a shrink right now.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: because you're scaring everybody in the studio by saying, I
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: know that he's a child predator, but I still like him.
• 11:13
  Speaker 6: Dr.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Rachel Tolles, help me.
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  Speaker 11: Dr.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Tolles, clinical forensic psychologist, author of a brand new book
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: coming out, Inventing the Psychopath. Ooh, that's a great title.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: How a Convenient Myth Makes the World More Dangerous. Okay, Dr.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Rachel Tolles fits in exactly with what Victoria is saying.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying she's wrong. I'm saying that phenomenon
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  Speaker 1: is scary. And I lived through that in court, particularly
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: in child sex abuse cases, because the family, the wife,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, no, that's not true. That didn't happen.
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  Speaker 13: He would never.
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  Speaker 2: He did.
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  Speaker 1: And I proved it. And the family would be furious.
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  Speaker 1: I would get my tires slashed, my door at my
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: house kicked in. My mailbox knocked over because nobody would
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: believe it. Is it a matter of they can't believe it?
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Because Vasquez, she's super smart. This book is amazing, The
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Death Row Club. But she still can't take in that
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: that teacher is a pervert that preyed on children because
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: that was not her experience with him. What is that phenomenon, Dr.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Rachel?
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: Well, it's obviously really complicated for a lot of reasons.
• 12:32
  Speaker 6: I mean, human beings are complicated. So I think that,
• 12:34
  Speaker 6: for example, when we get to the murder, that suddenly
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  Speaker 6: defines the entire person. So everything that came before the
• 12:41
  Speaker 6: murders is just gone. And I think when you mentioned
• 12:45
  Speaker 6: this guy was a pervert, this teacher, those are absolutely
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: things he did. They were despicable. And those are real things.
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: And those are a part of him. But I think
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: where we, as a society and a culture, where we
• 12:59
  Speaker 6: go is that the minute we find out of a
• 13:02
  Speaker 6: despicable act, we define the entire person And that doesn't
• 13:07
  Speaker 6: mean there's no excuse for these actions. So that's absolutely
• 13:10
  Speaker 6: not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is
• 13:12
  Speaker 6: there's also other parts of a human being that are real.
• 13:17
  Speaker 6: For example, I mean, here we're talking about somebody who's saying, well,
• 13:21
  Speaker 6: I still love my father or I still care for
• 13:24
  Speaker 6: my teacher. And that's very real. And that doesn't go away.
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  Speaker 6: And so then it's a matter of being able as
• 13:31
  Speaker 6: a daughter or a person who loves somebody to hold
• 13:34
  Speaker 6: two different people. in your mind and you have to compartmentalize.
• 13:39
  Speaker 6: And that's really what we're talking about here. So there's
• 13:41
  Speaker 6: a couple of things. There's the person who murders and
• 13:45
  Speaker 6: that's the other thing. It's like, how does a daughter
• 13:48
  Speaker 6: wrap her head around the fact that, did my father
• 13:51
  Speaker 6: really love me? And maybe no, yes, my father really
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: loved me. He was capable of love and he was
• 13:58
  Speaker 6: capable of doing this despicable thing. So there's that element
• 14:03
  Speaker 6: to it. But then there's, of course, the compartmentalization. How
• 14:06
  Speaker 6: does a human being, how are they able to love
• 14:10
  Speaker 6: their daughters or their wives and then go out at
• 14:12
  Speaker 6: night and murder sex workers or people who they deem
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: as less human? And that's what I think we need
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: to be looking at here.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Dr. Tolles, in addition to being a clinical and forensic
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: psychologist and author of a new book, I think you
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: may be clairvoyant because I was just about to bring
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: up Rex Heuermann, who is... Lucifer. Before I show him,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: let's look at his many, many victims. They went through
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: unimaginable suffering, torture in his underground torture chamber that his
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: wife never noticed. And he, by the way, has made
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: at least $ 1 million reportedly. Hey, let me see Vasquez
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: while I'm talking about Heuermann. These were real serial killers, okay?
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: His wife, didn't notice the underground sex and murder dungeon
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: in her home. And she's reportedly made a million dollar
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: sum for a documentary with quotas about her life and
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: the trial and so forth. Asa Ellerup is her name.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know about her, but I have no doubt
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: that his children had no idea that Heuermann was a
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: serial killer. And are likely going through what you're talking about.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying it's bizarre
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: and hard to understand, but is real. Okay, listen.
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: Do you understand that by pleading guilty to a charge,
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: that is the same as you've gone to trial and.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: You've found guilty of that charge?
• 15:56
  Speaker 12: Yes, Your Honor.
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: Do you understand that by pleading guilty, you're waiving a
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: number of very important rights?
• 16:00
  Speaker 11: Yes, Your Honor.
• 16:01
  Speaker 10: Rex Uriman will be held responsible... for the 1993 murder
• 16:06
  Speaker 10: of Sandra Castilla, the 1996 murder of Karen Vergata, the
• 16:12
  Speaker 10: 2000 murder of Valerie Mack, the 2003 murder of Jessica Taylor,
• 16:19
  Speaker 10: the 2007 murder of Maureen Brainerd Barnes, the 2009 murder
• 16:26
  Speaker 10: of Melissa Bartholomew, the June 2009 murder of Megan Waterman,
• 16:31
  Speaker 10: and the September 2010 murder of Ms.
• 16:36
  Speaker 7: Costello.
• 16:36
  Speaker 11: The girl runs out of the house naked and is
• 16:40
  Speaker 11: running in front of the garage. And now the witness says, hey,
• 16:45
  Speaker 11: shouldn't we be taking her? Something's wrong here. And the
• 16:48
  Speaker 11: driver tells her, no, they're just playing a game.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Leave it.
• 16:52
  Speaker 8: The Go-Go Beach Task Force searches more than 350 electronic
• 16:55
  Speaker 8: devices before finding the blueprint document on a hard drive
• 16:59
  Speaker 8: in the basement of Heuermann's home. The document includes a
• 17:01
  Speaker 8: checklist of supplies like robes, saws, and surgical drapes. Another
• 17:06
  Speaker 8: checklist includes tasks to complete before, during, and after the killings,
• 17:10
  Speaker 8: as well as practical lessons for next time.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Along the lines of what Victoria Vasquez is writing about
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: in this amazing new book, The Death Row Club, They
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: say fresh and unforgettable. Okay. It's definitely unforgettable. I agree
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: with that. But another real-life example of this, a woman
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: joining us right now, her name Francine Bardol, who knew
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Ted Bundy very well. And actually, brace yourselves, because normally
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I would be trying to accuse her of child neglect.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Her son, And Bundy's girlfriend's son, her son, and Bundy's
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: girlfriend's son were best friends. Bundy would take the two
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: boys to movies and the pool. Ted Bundy taking your
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: child to movies and a pool party. She's also with
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Cold Case Solutions and Resources. Francine. I mean, do you
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: ever just want to go, what was I thinking? But
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: how could you know?
• 18:35
  Speaker 7: I didn't know. He was very.
• 18:42
  Speaker 6: Smart.
• 18:43
  Speaker 7: He presented himself well. He was very good with the kids.
• 18:49
  Speaker 7: He really was really good with them. And he used
• 18:53
  Speaker 7: to sit when he'd come home to pick up Josh,
• 18:56
  Speaker 7: because I was pending Josh, We'd sit and talk for
• 18:59
  Speaker 7: a long time. He would talk about law school. I
• 19:02
  Speaker 7: was interested in law school. He was very astute, very
• 19:08
  Speaker 7: good listener. And he was handsome. And he was endearing.
• 19:11
  Speaker 7: And I remember my son.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: You think he's handsome? Because he looks like a demon
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: to me. I've interviewed, I believe, every living victim of
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Ted Bundy's. And the stories they have told me on
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: and off air, Or blood curdling. You do know he
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: had sex with a woman's skull, right? Oh, absolutely.
• 19:34
  Speaker 7: I do know all about him.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, and you do know that after he would kill
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: the victims, he would bathe their bodies and do their
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: hair and put makeup on them? Yes, I do. Okay,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: just making sure you knew that. Okay, tell me a
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Bundy story.
• 19:51
  Speaker 7: Well, he would take my son and Josh swimming. He
• 19:56
  Speaker 7: went to law school at the University of Utah and
• 19:59
  Speaker 7: they allowed them access to the Fort Douglas swimming pool.
• 20:04
  Speaker 7: And my son was, I think he was six maybe
• 20:06
  Speaker 7: as I was recalling it. And Josh was about the
• 20:08
  Speaker 7: same age. And he'd take them swimming, and they liked
• 20:11
  Speaker 7: going swimming. I mean, not everybody had a swimming pool
• 20:13
  Speaker 7: back in those days, and that was in, like, 74.
• 20:16
  Speaker 7: And so they'd go, and then one day my son
• 20:19
  Speaker 7: came home, and he said, I don't want to go
• 20:21
  Speaker 7: swimming with Ted anymore. And, of course, I was kind
• 20:25
  Speaker 7: of concerned, thinking maybe Ted had, you know, touched him
• 20:29
  Speaker 7: or been inappropriate with him. And I said, well, why not?
• 20:32
  Speaker 7: And he goes, well, he keeps playing this game called shark,
• 20:36
  Speaker 7: and he keeps biting me. And as you know, that's
• 20:42
  Speaker 7: how Ted was convicted, based on his bite marks. And
• 20:47
  Speaker 7: so as I think about it now, it was totally
• 20:51
  Speaker 7: surprising because the boys loved going with him and he
• 20:53
  Speaker 7: was always good with them, but had no idea my
• 20:55
  Speaker 7: son was going to be an appetizer. And then there
• 20:59
  Speaker 7: were times when he'd take him to the movies. The
• 21:01
  Speaker 7: drive-in movies were big back then. And he took them
• 21:05
  Speaker 7: to the movies and he'd leave and he'd tell the boys,
• 21:07
  Speaker 7: I'm going to the snack bar, but I'll be back.
• 21:09
  Speaker 7: You know, you guys wait. And he wouldn't come back.
• 21:12
  Speaker 7: And so they'd get the movie, get over and they
• 21:14
  Speaker 7: go out looking for him. And they, uh, my son,
• 21:17
  Speaker 7: Larry said that, uh, he's, he'd see that he saw
• 21:21
  Speaker 7: Ted standing by the women's restroom door, watching the women leaving.
• 21:25
  Speaker 7: And he thought that he was just young.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: He was just little.
• 21:27
  Speaker 7: He couldn't understand why he wasn't at the snack bar
• 21:30
  Speaker 7: getting candy. And so that was kind of concerning. And
• 21:36
  Speaker 7: the other thing that kind of bothered me, but I
• 21:39
  Speaker 7: didn't give it much thought because I babysat Josh, his mom,
• 21:43
  Speaker 7: who Ted was living with, asked if I could tend
• 21:48
  Speaker 7: Josh while her and Ted would go water skiing. And
• 21:53
  Speaker 7: I of course say yes, and that was just fine.
• 21:56
  Speaker 7: But She'd sometimes call and say, oh, never mind. He
• 22:00
  Speaker 7: didn't come home last night and we're not going. And
• 22:04
  Speaker 7: he takes off sometimes and he doesn't come home for
• 22:06
  Speaker 7: a while. And she was speculating perhaps it was because
• 22:10
  Speaker 7: he'd go visit his mother or just do something like
• 22:13
  Speaker 7: it was normal for him to do that sort of thing.
• 22:17
  Speaker 7: And I didn't think a lot about it because I
• 22:21
  Speaker 7: didn't give it a lot of thought, but I do
• 22:23
  Speaker 7: recall one time she had to work a little bit later,
• 22:26
  Speaker 7: and she asked me if I could bring Josh back home,
• 22:30
  Speaker 7: and Ted was there, and drop him off because she
• 22:33
  Speaker 7: was going to be later. So I did take him home,
• 22:37
  Speaker 7: and I remember knocking and knocking on the door. He
• 22:39
  Speaker 7: didn't answer the door. And I thought, I wonder if
• 22:42
  Speaker 7: he's really home or not. And all of a sudden
• 22:44
  Speaker 7: I saw that he just peeked out of the curtains,
• 22:47
  Speaker 7: just a peeking. And then he opened the door, and
• 22:51
  Speaker 7: it was pitch dark. in the house. And that was
• 22:55
  Speaker 7: the first time I felt really uneasy was I didn't
• 22:58
  Speaker 7: feel good about how the house was so dark and
• 23:01
  Speaker 7: leaving Josh there, but Josh acted like, you know, not
• 23:04
  Speaker 7: a big deal. Um, and that bothered me. And then
• 23:08
  Speaker 7: later on, Larry would say, that's my son. And he'd say,
• 23:12
  Speaker 7: you know, um, sometimes when Ted would get home, uh,
• 23:16
  Speaker 7: after a weekend, he would want it to be totally quiet.
• 23:20
  Speaker 7: He didn't want any noise. Uh, the house was just really,
• 23:24
  Speaker 7: you know, kind of, it wasn't all, it was kind
• 23:26
  Speaker 7: of dark and he would want his food delivered to
• 23:29
  Speaker 7: his door. So, um, Leslie would, that was the girl
• 23:33
  Speaker 7: he was living with, would take the food to, uh,
• 23:36
  Speaker 7: the door, the bedroom door where Ted was staying and
• 23:38
  Speaker 7: she'd leave it there and he'd eat it. And he
• 23:40
  Speaker 7: was like that for a couple of days. So those
• 23:43
  Speaker 7: were kind of strange things, you know, but honestly there
• 23:47
  Speaker 7: was nothing I, I could think about. There was one
• 23:50
  Speaker 7: thing that was a little strange. Um, my son got
• 23:53
  Speaker 7: mad because he had to do some chores. And so
• 23:55
  Speaker 7: he ran away from home. He was six, maybe seven.
• 23:59
  Speaker 7: And I couldn't find him. And Ted offered to help
• 24:02
  Speaker 7: find him. And Ted did find him. And my son,
• 24:06
  Speaker 7: you know, he kind of got on my son about
• 24:08
  Speaker 7: doing that. And he took my son's bike. He had
• 24:11
  Speaker 7: a little bike and he took it out of his
• 24:12
  Speaker 7: trunk of the car and in a Volkswagen, the trunk
• 24:14
  Speaker 7: is in the front. And he walked around to let
• 24:17
  Speaker 7: my son out of the car. But I remember my
• 24:20
  Speaker 7: son said, oh, He couldn't get out of the car
• 24:23
  Speaker 7: by himself because the door handle was missing. So I
• 24:28
  Speaker 7: didn't know anything about this kind of thing. I thought, well,
• 24:30
  Speaker 7: you know, it wasn't, you know, not a big deal,
• 24:32
  Speaker 7: I guess. But, yeah, he would remove the door handle
• 24:35
  Speaker 7: so victims could not escape.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: To Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter, the ruses Ted Bundy, well,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: all of the serial killers used to snare their victims
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: were used Very often, very intricate. Ted Bundy would use
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: a fake sling or cast to approach women and act
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: like he was disabled because of the injury, then use
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: that cast or sling on them to quiet them. As
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: you just heard from Francine Bardol and some of his
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: earlier victims, he would approach them In that VW, they
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: got in, but they couldn't get out. And that is
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: exactly what her little son was describing.
• 25:30
  Speaker 8: It's so shocking to hear her describe that her son
• 25:35
  Speaker 8: was in a trapped vehicle, a vehicle that Ted Bundy used.
• 25:40
  Speaker 8: to trap his Corey and to keep them there. I
• 25:44
  Speaker 8: was thinking you were talking about Ted Bundy with his
• 25:47
  Speaker 8: arm in the sling. I was thinking of Janice Ott.
• 25:50
  Speaker 8: You know, he, asked her to help him put, you know,
• 25:54
  Speaker 8: his wrapped on the top of the car, you know,
• 25:57
  Speaker 8: because he couldn't get it on top of the bug.
• 25:59
  Speaker 8: And next thing you know, she was gone. He had
• 26:01
  Speaker 8: his arm in a sling. He's crutches to Nancy and
• 26:05
  Speaker 8: would just find any means necessary to get that person,
• 26:09
  Speaker 8: the victim in the car. And once they were in
• 26:12
  Speaker 8: the car, that was it. You know, it was the
• 26:15
  Speaker 8: fact I got chill bumps when she said that the
• 26:18
  Speaker 8: handle was missing on the inside. You know, he oftentimes
• 26:21
  Speaker 8: took the front seat passenger seat out of that bug
• 26:26
  Speaker 8: to be able to to control the victim even more.
• 26:30
  Speaker 8: So the whole idea is just shocking to me. I
• 26:34
  Speaker 8: can't imagine what she goes through thinking about her son
• 26:37
  Speaker 8: being in the physical location where victims spent their last
• 26:42
  Speaker 8: living moments.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: That's right, Dave Mack, when police pulled him over in Utah,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: they found handcuffs, ice pick, crowbar, garbage bags, ski mask
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: in the VW. He often drove a VW, modifying it
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: in multiple ways to make it easier for him to
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: snare and murder his victims. Straight back out to Victoria
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Vasquez's Victoria, we're talking about real-life serial killers. I want
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: to talk about your book, which is really fantastic. Now,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: your premise is about, you said, Nicola. I wish you
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: hadn't said that, because when I read your book, I
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: called her in my mind, Nicola. And you gave me
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: a flashback to when I read every single Harry Potter
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: book to the children when they were little out loud.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: And I thought it was Hermione. And then I found out.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: It was Hermione.
• 27:41
  Speaker 13: It ruined everything.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: So the whole way I called her Nicola and you
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: just said Nicola. Okay, go ahead. Tell me all about Nicola.
• 27:50
  Speaker 13: First of all, it's not just you, Nancy. I have
• 27:52
  Speaker 13: met many people who call her Nicola. So not just you.
• 27:57
  Speaker 13: So Nicola is a elementary school teacher, kind of similar
• 28:03
  Speaker 13: to me. I teach middle and high school. And she
• 28:07
  Speaker 13: lives in a very small town in upstate New York,
• 28:09
  Speaker 13: a town where everybody knows everybody. Her father owns the
• 28:13
  Speaker 13: hardware store. He's really loved in the community. Everybody trusts him.
• 28:18
  Speaker 13: And then one day, a true crime show comes to
• 28:21
  Speaker 13: town called To Catch a Killer. And in this true
• 28:24
  Speaker 13: crime show, a woman who is a criminal defense attorney
• 28:30
  Speaker 13: turned reality TV show host She is trying to catch
• 28:36
  Speaker 13: the Ellicott Creek Ripper, who is the killer that terrorized
• 28:40
  Speaker 13: their small town for so long. And she's doing it
• 28:43
  Speaker 13: with the assistance of her father, Tom Woods, who is
• 28:46
  Speaker 13: a convicted serial killer on death row. And so they
• 28:51
  Speaker 13: managed to catch the Ellicott Creek Ripper, who is Nicola's father.
• 28:54
  Speaker 13: And that is where Nicola's problems begin. She is shunned
• 28:58
  Speaker 13: by her community. She is fired from her job. The
• 29:01
  Speaker 13: bank is threatening to foreclose on her house. when she
• 29:04
  Speaker 13: receives an invitation to the Death Row Club, which is
• 29:07
  Speaker 13: a secret retreat for the adult children of serial killers.
• 29:10
  Speaker 13: And at first, this seems like the solution to all
• 29:12
  Speaker 13: her problems. Finally, she's going to be surrounded by people
• 29:16
  Speaker 13: just like her who can understand what she's going through.
• 29:18
  Speaker 13: But then a stranger appears on their doorstep and a
• 29:21
  Speaker 13: member goes missing and they're left to wonder, could one
• 29:25
  Speaker 13: of them be following in their family's footsteps?
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Because you made my mind go off to murders only
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: in the building, you know, with Martin Short and Steve
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Martin and Selena Gomez. Selena Gomez, as you know, kind
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: of like leads this podcast and they end up solving
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: true crimes. It's amazing. And I've had a lot of
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: bonding time with my son watching Murders Only in the Building. Okay, wait,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: what does that say? We watch Murders Only in the
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: My daughter and I watched Dexter. Okay, I need to
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: rethink my children's programming in our home. So that premise
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: is it's the adult daughter, Nicola Fisher. Dad owns a
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: hardware store, small community. A lot of us can identify
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: with that. And then he is outed as a notorious
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: serial killer. Then she gets hooked up with a podcaster.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Tell me that part again.
• 30:32
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 30:34
  Speaker 13: So the podcaster is the one who ultimately is responsible
• 30:38
  Speaker 13: for her father's arrest, which is terrible because Nicola thought
• 30:42
  Speaker 13: that this girl was her friend and they were like
• 30:44
  Speaker 13: working together. And then it turns out, no, she was
• 30:47
  Speaker 13: actually after her dad. She suspected that Nicola's dad was
• 30:52
  Speaker 13: the killer all along. So Nicola feels betrayed. Um, so yeah,
• 30:56
  Speaker 13: and then she gets this invitation. And of course, who
• 30:58
  Speaker 13: is at the retreat, but this this podcaster, this true
• 31:02
  Speaker 13: crime host Greer. So she has to figure out if
• 31:06
  Speaker 13: she can trust Greer again, or if they are enemies.
• 31:10
  Speaker 13: So you have a little bit of tension there too.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: This is an amazingly intricate plot, but it just flows
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: so quickly. You just go from page to page because
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: you want to know what happens. I'm not going to
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: give away the end. But Chris McDonough joining us. Chris McDonough,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: veteran homicide detective with over 300 homicide investigations under his belt,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: working at and advocating for the Cold Case Foundation. He
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: is the star, this is where I found him, of
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: the interview room on YouTube. Can we talk about Joseph DeAngelo,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: the Golden State Killer, for just one moment? First of all,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: listen to this.
• 31:49
  Speaker 9: I've listened to all your.
• 31:54
  Speaker 8: Statements Each one of them. And I'm.
• 32:10
  Speaker 9: Really sorry.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: To everyone I've hurt.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: My safety was shattered as a masked man, D'Angelo, yielding
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: a knife, told me he would kill me if I
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: didn't do what he demanded. As I lay helpless, or
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: sat tied, gagged, blindfolded and naked in the cold December night,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: waiting for what unthinkable act he would violate me with next.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: He tormented me. And he told me over and over
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: again he would kill me. And I believed him. At
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: three different times that night, I thought I was going
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: to die.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: That from our friends at ABC and KXTV. You know,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: no one within his circle suspected the Golden State Killer
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: was Joseph D'Angelo, a former cop, as I recall, an
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Oxford PD and another PD. He was actually on the
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: police force. And he was so normal that when they
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: came to arrest him, as I recall, he went, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I've got a roast in the oven. So the dichotomy...
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: of the normalcy, the seeming normalcy that Victoria Vasquez is
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: describing when it's really a serial killer. Have you ever
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: experienced that dichotomy?
• 33:40
  Speaker 12: Well, Nancy, this is why this is so fascinating with
• 33:43
  Speaker 12: these types of personalities that the doc was talking about.
• 33:46
  Speaker 12: There's so many compartments, but the first three our private life,
• 33:52
  Speaker 12: our secret life, and our public persona that is projected.
• 33:56
  Speaker 12: And I did an interview with Wesley Allen Dodd in 1992,
• 34:01
  Speaker 12: who was on death row. And before the interview, he
• 34:04
  Speaker 12: had sent me a letter. And I have that letter
• 34:06
  Speaker 12: actually right behind me in the shelf here. Long story short,
• 34:12
  Speaker 12: it's Christmas Eve. And he's writing me a letter about
• 34:16
  Speaker 12: our upcoming visit And he signs off by saying, happy holidays.
• 34:22
  Speaker 12: And this is a gentleman, you know, this is obviously
• 34:25
  Speaker 12: a monster. And that's what I love about Francine. I mean,
• 34:29
  Speaker 12: she just told us a story about, you know, having
• 34:32
  Speaker 12: an interaction with Ted Bundy. Yet that inspired her ultimately
• 34:38
  Speaker 12: to become a very famous forensic scientist, which, you know,
• 34:42
  Speaker 12: you know perfectly. about her background. But that's who they
• 34:46
  Speaker 12: have to convince first, their families. They have to convince
• 34:50
  Speaker 12: their friends and their neighbors around them like chameleons. And
• 34:53
  Speaker 12: that way they can blend in and do what they
• 34:55
  Speaker 12: need to do in that other compartment.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Back to Francine Bardot, speaking of what you do with
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: your life after this incident, like your life after you
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: realized you unwittingly let Ted Bundy, be around your baby.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: With no idea. He was that cunning and that charming.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't just you he fooled. He fooled everybody
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: around him. Everyone. But you go on. You're with Cold
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Case Solutions and Resources. You're a DNA expert. You're a
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: crime scene investigator and a forensic specialist. Did that Did
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: metamorphosis have anything to do with Bundy?
• 35:47
  Speaker 7: I think to some extent it did, because I remember
• 35:51
  Speaker 7: as I was growing up, you know, a serial killer
• 35:54
  Speaker 7: looked like a serial killer, you thought. And this is
• 35:57
  Speaker 7: not what Ted looked like. Not only that, but Utah
• 36:01
  Speaker 7: is where he was at, is a Mormon community. It's
• 36:04
  Speaker 7: a Mormon state. And he got baptized in the Mormon church.
• 36:07
  Speaker 7: That made him endearing. He also got involved with politics.
• 36:10
  Speaker 7: That made him credible. He was going to law school.
• 36:14
  Speaker 7: I mean, there was all these things. And this is
• 36:16
  Speaker 7: what serial killers, I believe, do is they try to
• 36:18
  Speaker 7: fit in as best they can and look as benign
• 36:22
  Speaker 7: as they possibly can. And I remember thinking about when
• 36:26
  Speaker 7: this happened, it was very shocking to me because, yeah,
• 36:31
  Speaker 7: when they broke the news that they had pulled him
• 36:33
  Speaker 7: over in the Volkswagen and they said Theodore Bundy, that
• 36:37
  Speaker 7: didn't click with me. And I looked at the screen
• 36:39
  Speaker 7: and I said, oh, my God, that's Ted. shocked me.
• 36:43
  Speaker 7: Even Leslie shocked her. She got out real fast. And
• 36:47
  Speaker 7: then I got thinking about how are they going to
• 36:49
  Speaker 7: catch him? What's going to happen? And as time went
• 36:51
  Speaker 7: on and I started learning about evidence and I started
• 36:55
  Speaker 7: learning about DNA and I looked at some of the
• 36:59
  Speaker 7: photographs from the sorority killings, I thought there is so much,
• 37:04
  Speaker 7: so much evidence there that has such great DNA on it.
• 37:07
  Speaker 7: It's too bad DNA wasn't, you know, around at the time.
• 37:11
  Speaker 7: And because there was just so much stuff that you
• 37:15
  Speaker 7: could have gotten things from. And I really became interested
• 37:19
  Speaker 7: in what I do is I extract the biological material
• 37:24
  Speaker 7: from items of evidence so that it could be DNA tested.
• 37:29
  Speaker 7: And I sent it off to forensic labs to do that.
• 37:32
  Speaker 7: My specialty is getting the DNA out. And every item
• 37:36
  Speaker 7: is so unique and it's really interesting. It's kind of
• 37:38
  Speaker 7: like where I'm going to focus on. And I I
• 37:41
  Speaker 7: like to look at the pictures of the crime scene
• 37:44
  Speaker 7: and I can see at the crime scene, this would
• 37:46
  Speaker 7: be a really great item of evidence. And as I
• 37:49
  Speaker 7: looked at the pictures of DNA or of evidence from
• 37:52
  Speaker 7: Ted Bundy stuff, boy, that was a goldmine. It really was.
• 37:56
  Speaker 7: And it, that's, I think it did, you know, I
• 37:59
  Speaker 7: wanted to go to law school, but I kind of
• 38:02
  Speaker 7: went a different way and got into working in law
• 38:07
  Speaker 7: The criminal justice system, I've gone just about every way
• 38:10
  Speaker 7: through the criminal justice system there is, and I ended
• 38:13
  Speaker 7: up doing what I'm doing now.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Francine Bardot, the Lord called you in a different direction.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Thank goodness. Chris McDonough, was there any event in your life,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: the way Vasquez describes what happened to Nicola in the
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Death Row Club, that turned you toward becoming a homicide detective?
• 38:37
  Speaker 12: Yeah, actually, there was, Nancy, like you, not to the
• 38:41
  Speaker 12: extreme that you've had to experience, but my then three-year-old
• 38:46
  Speaker 12: son was almost kidnapped. Sidewalk out in front of our house,
• 38:51
  Speaker 12: and I witnessed the door of that vehicle open, and
• 38:54
  Speaker 12: I chased after that suspect. Long story short, I wasn't
• 38:58
  Speaker 12: smart enough back then to get the license plate of
• 39:00
  Speaker 12: the vehicle, but I made a deal with God. I said,
• 39:04
  Speaker 12: if you let me.
• 39:07
  Speaker 12: Hunt these people down, I will do it for the
• 39:10
  Speaker 12: rest of my life. And here I am 44 years later,
• 39:15
  Speaker 12: still talking about predatorial behavior.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: You know, Chris McDonough, as long as I have known you,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I did not know that about you.
• 39:23
  Speaker 12: Yeah, that was my foundation. That was 1981.
• 39:27
  Speaker 13: 1981.
• 39:31
  Speaker 12: And 82 is when I got in law enforcement.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: And you're still doing it. You know, occasionally I get
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: extremely weary with the crush of murder and mayhem and
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: just pure hate that many of our cases involve. But
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: I remember when I get like that, I remember Keith
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: and those big blue eyes. My fiance that was murdered,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: and I feel like I can't quit. Victoria Vasquez, your book,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: at times lighthearted, The Death Row Club is really striking
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: a chord, as you can see tonight. I hope that
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Nicola goes on like McDonough, like Francine, and so many
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: others to do amazing things. Translation, you got to write
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: a sequel. Guys, if you haven't already read it, The
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Death Row Club, it's amazing. And for those of us
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: in our business, it hits on so many different levels.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: The Death Row Club by Victoria Vasquez. It's a psychological thriller,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: and I mean that in the best sense. Thank you, Victoria,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: and to my awesome and amazing panel tonight. We stop,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: as we always do, to remember an American hero, Officer
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Dominic Francis, bluffed in PD, Ohio, killed in the line
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: of duty after devoting nearly 20 years of his life
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: to protecting and serving, leaving behind wife, Ricky, and two children,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Blake and Taylor. American hero, Officer Dominic Francis. Thank you
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: to our guests, but especially to you for being with
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: us tonight. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight, but I'll
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: see you tomorrow night, God willing. And until then, good night, friend.